Post by: LB7 on 11/02/2018 08:28:50
sds66.png (105.75 kB . 1163x568 - viewed 4389 times)And that device not:
gt85.png (118.88 kB . 1187x621 - viewed 4403 times)Where is the mistake ?
Post by: LB7 on 14/02/2018 12:19:51
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Post by: guest39538 on 14/02/2018 12:24:33
That device keeps constant the sum of energy:Dude, to be honest I do not think anyone understands your diagrams or idea. Perhaps instead of presenting the idea as such, try present it in a question or simple form.
And that device not:
Where is the mistake ?
Example : I have an idea to generate energy that uses ..........
Post by: LB7 on 16/02/2018 09:29:01
Post by: guest39538 on 16/02/2018 09:40:24
@Thebox: yes, it is an example to break the law of conservation of the energy in a closed device could be not constant. It is theoretical and not very useful in practice. What I need to explain ?You could start by saying something like , my machine works by the function of ........???
Post by: LB7 on 16/02/2018 11:02:10
What's more ?
Post by: guest39538 on 16/02/2018 16:18:34
The function used is a gradient of pressure in a "fluid" like gravity can do with water, but I use theoretical spheres (not molecules) without mass and without friction, like that the calculations are very easy. To have a gradient, I use theoretical springs. One spring for each sphere. I take the force of the spring constant (don't depend of the length). Why I can't use gravity and water ? because I need to change the orientation of the attraction.Because it is your idea, it is simple in your mind and you can ''see'' the actions and how your device works.
What's more ?
However, I and everyone else cannot read minds unfortunately.
Imagine you want to explain to a child your idea, explain the very basics of the concept.
Post by: LB7 on 16/02/2018 17:11:28
How ? I don't study a cycle but only the deformation of the device and I study all the energies
Simplifications: No mass, no friction, all volumes are constant, the force of the springs is constant (doesn't depend of the length of the spring), it is possible to calculate with a mass, a friction, and a force not constant for the springs but the calculations are not easy (for me).
What I need: a gradient of pressure (like gravity can do with water) AND the possibility to change the orientation of the attraction, so for that, I replace the molecules of water by theoretical spheres (blue color on the drawing) without mass, so to have a gradient of pressure, I need to attract the spheres, I use springs for that, theoretical springs (no mass, no friction).
Why don't use gravity ? I need to change the orientation of the attraction in the same time I deform the device. With springs it is easy to change the orientation of the attraction. In the same time, the device is deformed, the orientation changes. Each spring is attached between a sphere and the green line.
How many spheres, and springs ? a lot ! like molecules of water in the same space to use the law of pressure under gravity, like that I don't need to calculate all forces for all the spheres !
How is the orientation of the springs ? I symbolised the orientation of the springs with a red line on the drawing. At start the orientation of the springs is at 45° (relative to the ground), when the device is deformed the angle increases 50, 60, 70, 80 etc, to reach the angle of 90° at final.
The device deforms itself ? No, because it is unstable, I need to use a theoretical device to control it, but that external device counts all the energies in/out to/from the device
What move in the device ? the green wall moves to the right. The left and right walls rotate counterclockwise around points A1 and A2. White rectangles rotates like the left/righ walls around their fixed disk.
Why I need to move out/in the spheres ? because I need to keep constant the orientation of the springs, so for that I'm forced to move out the spheres at the bottom to put in at the right of the white rectangles. The pressure of the spheres passed from P1 to 0 and from 0 to P2 with P2<P1 so I recover an energy from that because even the size of the spheres is small, their volumes are not 0. Noether's theorem is not applicable.
I didn't draw but there are gaskets between the bottom wall and the left/right walls and no spheres escape.
Why I say the energy is not conserved even I didn't calculate the energies ? because I took the same device but with E (the thickness of the white rectangles) very small but I kept constant the area of the white rectangles and I supposed the sum of energies is conserved. With E bigger, there is an extra energy from the move out/in of the spheres because the pressure P2<P1
Is it enough ?
Post by: guest39538 on 16/02/2018 17:27:34
Simplifications: No mass
When you say no mass, that is not possible, so I assume you do not mean mass and have your words confused?
Post by: LB7 on 16/02/2018 17:40:04
I added 2 gif to show the movements, note, it is not a cycle, just study the deformation from start (45° for the lateral walls ) to 90°:
animated.gif (127.37 kB . 1004x546 - viewed 3937 times) gif4.gif (119.69 kB . 1003x546 - viewed 4005 times)
Post by: LB7 on 18/02/2018 08:35:30
The goal: break the law of conservation of the energy with a theoretical device
How ? I don't study a cycle but only the deformation of the device and I study all the energies
Simplifications:
What I need: a gradient of pressure (like gravity can do with water) AND the possibility to change the orientation of the attraction, so for that, I replace the molecules of water by theoretical spheres (blue color on the drawing) without mass, so to have a gradient of pressure, I need to attract the spheres, I use springs for that, theoretical springs (no mass, no friction).
Why don't use gravity ? I need to change the orientation of the attraction in the same time I deform the device. With springs it is easy to change the orientation of the attraction. In the same time, the device is deformed, the orientation changes. Each spring is attached between a sphere and the green line.
How many spheres, and springs ? a lot ! like molecules of water in the same space to use the law of pressure under gravity, like that I don't need to calculate all forces for all the spheres !
How is the orientation of the springs ? I symbolised the orientation of the springs with a red line on the drawing. At start the orientation of the springs is at 45° (relative to the ground), when the device is deformed the angle increases 50, 60, 70, 80 etc, to reach the angle of 90° at final.
The device deforms itself ? No, because it is unstable, I need to use a theoretical device to control it, but that external device counts all the energies in/out to/from the device
What move in the device ? the green wall moves to the right. The left and right walls rotate counterclockwise around points A1 and A2. White rectangles rotates like the left/righ walls around their fixed disk.
Why I need to move out/in the spheres ? because I need to keep constant the orientation of the springs, so for that I'm forced to move out the spheres at the bottom to put in at the right of the white rectangles. The pressure of the spheres passed from P1 to 0 and from 0 to P2 with P2<P1 so I recover an energy from that because even the size of the spheres is small, their volumes are not 0. Noether's theorem is not applicable.
I didn't draw but there are gaskets between the bottom wall and the left/right walls and no spheres escape.
Why I say the energy is not conserved even I didn't calculate the energies ? because I took the same device but with E (the thickness of the white rectangles) very small but I kept constant the area of the white rectangles and I supposed the sum of energies is conserved. With E bigger, there is an extra energy from the move out/in of the spheres because the pressure P2<P1
Is it enough ?
Post by: guest39538 on 18/02/2018 15:56:17
A couple of posts ago, you posted an animation of a pendulum action, now from this, it looks like you are trying to re-invent a pendulum?
Post by: LB7 on 18/02/2018 16:02:00
Post by: guest39538 on 18/02/2018 17:21:55
Here, it is not a pendulum, because the device is deformed from 45° to 90°, it is not a cycle. I study the sum of energy from 45° to 90°. I loop the gif to see how the device is deformed, but the start is at 45° and the end is at 90°.You say it is a not a cycle, do you mean it falls once then stops?
Post by: LB7 on 18/02/2018 17:31:25
Yes, the device stop when the angle is 90°.
Post by: LB7 on 22/02/2018 20:40:26
Post by: LB7 on 26/02/2018 09:57:05
Post by: LB7 on 26/02/2018 17:08:10
f3.png (39.16 kB . 1100x575 - viewed 3385 times) f4.png (24.18 kB . 684x569 - viewed 3380 times)
Post by: LB7 on 08/03/2018 09:08:57
v1.png (51.03 kB . 998x626 - viewed 3272 times) v2.png (47.67 kB . 971x617 - viewed 3365 times)I win an energy from the moving out/in of the blue spheres:
v3.png (61.19 kB . 1021x577 - viewed 3340 times)At final the device is like:
v4.png (15.31 kB . 936x548 - viewed 3342 times)The shape P keeps constant its volume like others things in the device.
And maybe I can let the pressure (without orange lines).
Hyp1: the device without the shape P keeps the sum of energy constant
Hyp2: the device with only the shape P keeps the sum of energy constant
Then I can win the energy from the move out/in of the blue spheres:
v5.png (61.66 kB . 1051x556 - viewed 3319 times)
Post by: LB7 on 08/03/2018 16:05:52
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The device at the end:
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I think I win twice, first because there is difference of pressure for the blue spheres from the below of the white rectangle and second, I don't need to move out/in the blue spheres to let pass the shape P.