Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Negin -(Universe) on 14/04/2007 17:35:09

Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 14/04/2007 17:35:09
I wonder if any one watched the program last week about NASA planning to go back to the moon in 2025. this time they plan to stay there for months hoping to bring back helium-3 as an energy source for the Earth. but what if He-3 is the power source of the moon itself, would the moon then be destroyed and never be seen again [:o] [???]
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 14/04/2007 17:43:26
Hmm.. I haven't seen that program, but I really want to now!

Nasa can still easily go to the moon, but they are probably preparing the technology to bring back Helium-3 - I have never heard of this before, until now.

I'm curious of how they are actually going to bring back the Helium-3, although I expect that it will be pretty light. Also, by 2025, we would probably have used up alot of our fuels, so this sounds like a great idea to me.

The power source of the moon itself? I'm not sure what you are on about. Of course, if there are living things there, that need Helium-3 to survive on, we will be destroying the environment for them, and those living creatures will die.

However, apart from the living things or anything, I don't see how taking the gases are going to affect the moon. The moon itself does not need the Helium-3 to keep orbiting our Earth. And even if there are some nasty side-effects that occur to the moon by us taking this Helium-3, I highly highly doubt that the Moon will blow up - this being a very unlikely outcome.

The moon does not respire, like us living things. Same as our Earth. If we take oxygen or carbon dioxide from the earth, and take it all out to space, the Earth will not blow up or destroyed. We, humans and animals and other living things, will die however. This will be the outcome of taking those gases away.

This will be the same for the moon, although I think that there aren't any living things there, thus not having any effect on the moon.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 14/04/2007 18:46:45
well, you see how the Earth has its own minerals within its structure starting from the crust and then going down to the core, so if helium-3 is actually part of the structure of the moon would we not affect the physical state of the planet, of course not in the short term and not if only a small amount is used but in the long term what would happen?
in the program it also mentioned that only 1kg of helium-3 is needed to supply the Earth with energy for the next 10 or so years so i guess it wouldnt have much of an adverse effect.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 14/04/2007 19:03:33
1 kg? That must store a heck of alot of energy..

How is this 1kg going to be marketed and sold? Into little tiny gases or something?!

Also, seeing Helium-3, I assume is a gas, I don't think that they will retrieve this from the Moon in it's physical state. I think it will be from their atmosphere, but I may be wrong.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: another_someone on 14/04/2007 19:20:48
Haven't watched any program, since I don't own a TV (and haven't done so this past 10 years); but reports of NASA going back to the moon are widely available.  Exact timetables are not yet in place, but around 2020 is the timeframe they are looking at, and yes, it is now for long term stays.

Not sure what the He3 is about.  He3 is not a fuel, except maybe is some exotic nuclear fusion reactor; but analysis of He3 would be useful in understanding the history of the rocks on the moon.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 14/04/2007 21:17:43
Yes - atleast we can now use up our fuels with ease [;D]
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 15/04/2007 12:53:25
another-someone He-3 as you have said is a nuclear fusion reactor. scientist on earth tried to fuse He-2 with hydrogen to model the power of the sun and to see if we could use the same nuclear fusion process to power the needs of the Earth but one the scientists realized that the neutrons produced from the latter fusion reaction would simply destroy the reaction vessel being used. another scientist, however, realized that using He-3 and isotope of He-2 wouldnt creat the problem mentioned, they realized that they were traces of He-3 in the samples of rocks that had been brought back from the first trip to the moon and thats where the story of going back begins. we could argue that we're not only using up the resources on Earth but are planning to destroy any life that may possibly exist on the moon?? very controversial i believe!!

seany as you've correctly pointed out we ARE going to be using the resources much faster and with less concern!!!!!! but the sucess of the mission to the moon could put in dengre not only us but the moon. its pretty sad i think
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 15/04/2007 13:02:22
by the way another-someone i must admit you dont need TV when you've got internet [;)]
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 15/04/2007 13:05:45
Yes.. But TV is still very interesting! [;D]
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 15/04/2007 13:10:15
Quote from: Universe on 15/04/2007 12:53:25
another-someone He-3 as you have said is a nuclear fusion reactor. scientist on earth tried to fuse He-2 with hydrogen to model the power of the sun and to see if we could use the same nuclear fusion process to power the needs of the Earth but one the scientists realized that the neutrons produced from the latter fusion reaction would simply destroy the reaction vessel being used. another scientist, however, realized that using He-3 and isotope of He-2 wouldnt creat the problem mentioned, they realized that they were traces of He-3 in the samples of rocks that had been brought back from the first trip to the moon and thats where the story of going back begins. we could argue that we're not only using up the resources on Earth but are planning to destroy any life that may possibly exist on the moon?? very controversial i believe!!

seany as you've correctly pointed out we ARE going to be using the resources much faster and with less concern!!!!!! but the sucess of the mission to the moon could put in dengre not only us but the moon. its pretty sad i think

I don't think it's sad. Firstly, I really doubt there is life on the Moon, although there is an equal amount of chance of there being one, but it is just my opinion.

Secondly, by removing 1kg of He-3, it will do a very low amount of damage overall to the moon, whether it is from the moon's crust itself, mantle, or just sheer gas in the atmosphere. Even 1 ton of He-3, I think, will do hardly any damage to the moon.

Lastly, we are running out of options for our energy sources. All our sources will probably run out within 50 years, so we need to develop one quickly. People are trying to make energy from water, by removing Hydrogen from water, but we need fuel to supply the energy to do this, which is back to square 1.

Just one curiosity, does He-3 give any bad effects to the Earth, like coal, oil, and gases give off greenhouse gases into the atmosphere? Or any harmful ones, such as Carbon Monoxide..
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 15/04/2007 16:14:01
interesting enough it's harmfull at all!!!
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 15/04/2007 18:30:28
Could you rephrase your above post? I don't understand it. [;D]
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 17/04/2007 15:25:46
Did you mean, "Interestingly enough, it's not harmful at all" ?
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: lyner on 18/04/2007 23:21:35
Chemically, it's inert.
I would love to know why it collects in moon rocks - as it's inert, I should have thought it would have drifted off very readily and gone back out into space along with all the other gases.
Is it some clever quantum thing at low temperatures when the surface is in the dark for weeks on end, during the lunar night?
Or is it the Earth's rich and dense  atmosphere that is the exception and causes the light element to float away from the surface? The lunar surface, presumably, has traces of lots of other ('gas') molecules stuck to it in the same way as He3. We are, I suppose, only talking about tiny amounts, even if there is a lot more than down here.
I missed the Horizon prog, unfortunately.
btw, what is its half life?
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: another_someone on 18/04/2007 23:41:29
Most helium is a product of alpha emissions - but that is more commonly He4, not He3, so I am not sure where the He3 on the moon might come from.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: another_someone on 19/04/2007 00:01:30
Ok, referring to good old Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3
Quote
More abundant helium-3 is thought to exist on the Moon (embedded in the upper layer of regolith by the solar wind over billions of years) and the solar system's gas giants (left over from the original solar nebula), although still in low quantities (28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm is helium-3).
Helium-3 undergoes the following aneutronic fusion reaction, among others, although this is the one most promising for power generation:

    2H + 3He → 4He (3.7 MeV) + p (14.7 MeV)

The appeal of helium-3 fusion stems from the nature of its reaction products. Most proposed fusion processes for power generation produce highly energetic neutrons which render reactor components radioactive with their bombardment, and power generation must occur through thermal means. In contrast, helium-3 itself is non-radioactive. The lone high-energy proton produced can be contained using electric and magnetic fields, which results in direct electricity generation.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 19/04/2007 20:31:41
Quote from: Seany on 17/04/2007 15:25:46
Did you mean, "Interestingly enough, it's not harmful at all" ?
yes sorry missed the NOT there !!! OOpss
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 19/04/2007 20:37:36
I persume there is a common factor between the atmosphere of the moon and the earth that keeps He-3 whithin the planets' surface???
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: another_someone on 19/04/2007 20:53:47
Quote from: Universe on 19/04/2007 20:37:36
I persume there is a common factor between the atmosphere of the moon and the earth that keeps He-3 whithin the planets' surface???

There is no atmosphere on the moon.  Anything that exists on the moon must be in the rocks - so too the helium.  It is true that helium is normally regarded as a gas, but gasses are absorbed to a limited amount by the solids that surround them, just as liquids will dissolve small amounts of gas, so too will solids.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: lightarrow on 19/04/2007 22:10:06
So, He3 is the new NASA excuse to go to the moon and make plants there?
Who they want to convince? Not me, at least.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: another_someone on 19/04/2007 23:45:28
Quote from: lightarrow on 19/04/2007 22:10:06
So, He3 is the new NASA excuse to go to the moon and make plants there?
Who they want to convince? Not me, at least.

Given we do not yet have any working fusion plant, I think it a little premature myself to start speculating about the sources of available fuel supply.

Not sure how much of this speculation is actually by NASA, and how much by others trying to argue on behalf of NASA (maybe when I have the time I should trawl through the NASA web site and see what they say for themselves, rather than what other's say on their behalf).
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: lightarrow on 20/04/2007 20:23:52
Quote from: another_someone on 19/04/2007 23:45:28
Quote from: lightarrow on 19/04/2007 22:10:06
So, He3 is the new NASA excuse to go to the moon and make plants there?
Who they want to convince? Not me, at least.
Given we do not yet have any working fusion plant, I think it a little premature myself to start speculating about the sources of available fuel supply.
Not sure how much of this speculation is actually by NASA, and how much by others trying to argue on behalf of NASA (maybe when I have the time I should trawl through the NASA web site and see what they say for themselves, rather than what other's say on their behalf).
Ok, it's premature.
However, even considering how can money be directed to NASA projects, if they will go to the moon and make plants there, it'll be 2% to take some "microbubble of He3" from stones, and 98% for other reasons (I let you imagine which ones).
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 20/04/2007 22:58:03
I can realise why it may be premature, but I still think that it is a good idea. Yes, we do not have a good enough idea yet, of He3 and the fusion thing, but that is why we set our aim to 2010. By then, hopefully, we will have atleast a start to it, and maybe efficient enough to work.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Guttedpiggy on 20/04/2007 23:19:38
OMG i saw that program and asked the nakedscientists to do a radioshow on it, you thief! XD, i think it would be fun to watch lol, 1 ton of h3 would apparantly supply the whole of england for enough power for a year or something crazy like that, but it could affect the tides and screw the whole of the undersea life up =\ so im not sure bout it
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Seany on 20/04/2007 23:28:03
Hmm.. I did not watch this program, but according to Universe, 1kg of He3 would be enough to supply us for 10 years.
Title: scientists are going back to the moon; this time to live???
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 22/04/2007 17:01:36
I'm pretty sure they mentioned the power of HE3 fusion is enough to supply the Earth for a long time, not 1 year!!! and yes they mentioned some of the implications as well. by the way Guttedpiggy when did you ask the naked scientist??

one more question Another someone: you said that there is no atomsphere on the moon, i predict it is actually a fact but i somehow think it impossible for a planet not to have an external atomosphere i.e. the gases not locked up in rocks??? i mean all the planets in our solar system have an atomosphere right?? so whay shouldn't their moons??