Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: investigator2100 on 21/01/2020 14:02:34
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Many scientists admit that attraction also happens between like poles of an electromagnet and a permanent magnet. It is obvious that the attraction force between the like magnetic poles must be an opposing force; still, no one seems to acknowledge that the opposing attraction force must balance (waste) the equivalent part of the real force (the repulsion force). Why?
Do the laws of motion not govern the magnetic force between an electromagnet and a permanent magnet?
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Many scientists admit that attraction also happens between like poles of an electromagnet and a permanent magnet.
Can you provide references please
It is obvious that the attraction force between the like magnetic poles must be an opposing force;
That sounds illogical, an attractive force cannot be a repulsive force. Can you explain what you are trying to say?
still, no one seems to acknowledge that the opposing attraction force must balance (waste) the equivalent part of the real force (the repulsion force). Why?
In previous posts we have explained that the field at any point is the vector sum of all the individual fields at that point.
Do the laws of motion not govern the magnetic force between an electromagnet and a permanent magnet?
Yes, they do.
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Many scientists admit that attraction also happens between like poles of an electromagnet and a permanent magnet.
Can you provide references please
It is obvious that the attraction force between the like magnetic poles must be an opposing force;
That sounds illogical, an attractive force cannot be a repulsive force. Can you explain what you are trying to say?
still, no one seems to acknowledge that the opposing attraction force must balance (waste) the equivalent part of the real force (the repulsion force). Why?
In previous posts we have explained that the field at any point is the vector sum of all the individual fields at that point.
Do the laws of motion not govern the magnetic force between an electromagnet and a permanent magnet?
Yes, they do.
Thank you, Sir, for your immediate reply. I am grateful to you for taking your precious time to discuss this matter.
(Please note that my research is restricted to ‘the force between the like poles of an iron-core- solenoid and a permanent magnet’. My research has nothing to do with ‘the force between the like poles of an air-core- solenoid and a permanent magnet’. According to my research, both kinds of solenoids react very differently to a permanent magnet during repulsion.)
Many scientists have observed the phenomenon (attraction during repulsion). At this time, I am linking an answer to one of my questions at quora.com. This answer clearly verifies the appearance of the phenomenon (the attraction during repulsion).
Yes, an attractive force cannot be a repulsive force but both forces appear one after the other between the like poles. The detail is linked.
The creation of attractive force between the like poles might seem illogical prima facie; but once it is examined thoroughly, it proves to be totally natural. I will explain the reason for “the attraction during repulsion” in my next post. Indeed, I have grabbed a black snack from pit dark
Pardon me, Sir. I am compelled to say that the statement “the field at any point is the vector sum of all the individual fields at that point” is a fatal illusion in the case of ‘force between the like poles of an iron-core- solenoid and a permanent magnet’. The statement does not apply in this case.
During an experiment, the like poles of an iron-core- solenoid and a permanent magnet were set to repel each other. At first, the like poles repelled each other. When both poles had repelled each other to some distance, attraction force was produced subsequently instead of repulsion force. So both poles attracted each other back instead of repelling.
The experiment is very simple. Any scientist can repeat it easily. If the experiment is repeated and reported formally by a regular scientist, it will eliminate the illusion. The illusion is corrupting a very important part of electromagnetism.
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OK, If I understand you correctly, the essence of your point is something like this.
A magnet is attracted to iron.
The core of an electromagnet is made of iron.
So, even if the electric current through an electromagnet makes it repel the magnet, there must be some residual attraction (between the iron core and tech magnet), and so the overall repulsion is smaller than you might expect.
Is that what you mean?.
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OK, If I understand you correctly, the essence of your point is something like this.
A magnet is attracted to iron.
The core of an electromagnet is made of iron.
So, even if the electric current through an electromagnet makes it repel the magnet, there must be some residual attraction (between the iron core and tech magnet), and so the overall repulsion is smaller than you might expect.
Is that what you mean?.
Sir,
I am highly grateful to you for extracting the most accurate essence of my point. The essence is a masterpiece. I assume that by using the word ‘tech magnet’, you mean permanent magnet.
I hope that you will kindly go on analyzing my work. Thank you very much.
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I would be careful of what you measure and how you interpret it. A non changing external field on an electromagnet, will very the symmetry of saturation.
And an electromagnet core has a little memory.
A core will add many more factors to a theory.
So a core would have a asymmetric response. Without cores and only M field, would you see the same?
I wouldn't call it a magnetic field response or a magnetic pole response yet.
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I would be careful of what you measure and how you interpret it. A non changing external field on an electromagnet, will very the symmetry of saturation.
And an electromagnet core has a little memory.
A core will add many more factors to a theory.
So a core would have a asymmetric response. Without cores and only M field, would you see the same?
I wouldn't call it a magnetic field response or a magnetic pole response yet.
Thank you for your reply. I apologize for my late response. In fact, I am preparing to demonstrate my motor technology based on the discovery.
“A core will add many more factors to a theory”
You are quite right, Sir.
“So a core would have a asymmetric response. Without cores and only M field, would you see the same?”
According to my research, the response of an air-core-solenoid and response of an iron-core-solenoid are totally different from each other when the solenoids face a permanent magnet. The responses of both kinds of solenoids are never the same in this situation.
All my research is limited to ‘the force between an iron-core-solenoid and a permanent magnet’. My research has nothing to do with air-core-solenoid.
“I wouldn't call it a magnetic field response or a magnetic pole response yet”
Attraction during repulsion is not a response from the magnetic field of an electromagnet (iron-core-solenoid). The attraction is created between the permanent magnet and the unsaturated part of the iron core. (Iron cores of usual electromagnets are never saturated).
Why should the permanent magnet not attract the unsaturated iron?
Why should the attraction force (created by the permanent magnet) not balance (waste) equivalent part of the repulsion force that is created by the magnetic pole of the electromagnet?
Why should the repulsion force not become smaller ultimately?
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. I assume that by using the word ‘tech magnet’,
Oops!
Typo
"each magnet"
Anyway, the simple answer to your question is this.
The iron is attracted to the magnet because the electron spins get lined up and they can cooperatively generate a bigger field.
But, if the core is in an electromagnet that's creating a big field, the electrons are already lined up. So the effective attraction is reduced.
The maths is difficult but people have done it.
The laws of motion work just fine.
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. I assume that by using the word ‘tech magnet’,
Oops!
Typo
"each magnet"
Anyway, the simple answer to your question is this.
The iron is attracted to the magnet because the electron spins get lined up and they can cooperatively generate a bigger field.
But, if the core is in an electromagnet that's creating a big field, the electrons are already lined up. So the effective attraction is reduced.
The maths is difficult but people have done it.
The laws of motion work just fine.
Thank you, Sir, for your reply. This is the quintessence of prior knowledge about the matter.
However, I think that only prior knowledge is not enough to determine the matter. New information is needed.
I also think that I have explored some hidden factors. This is a different topic. I have posted the topic under a new question.
Topic title: Can you verify/nullify the discovery of a third pole between the like poles?
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=78597.msg592672#msg592672