Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: EvaH on 07/05/2020 12:03:47
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Chad asks:
Can you please help me to understand how temperature and pressure are related? My theory is that the temperature is only high on the sun because of the gravity. That the actual temperature is closer to absolute 0 making the sun a Bose Einstein condensate. The temperature is maintained by evaporation as the surface turns to liquid and a gas it is drawn off the surface of the sun by the draft generated by the previous expansion.
What do you think?
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A bizarre concoction of ideas!
The simplest model of the sun is a ball of gas (mostly hydrogen) held together by gravity with sufficient pressure in the middle to initiate fusion reactions, giving a calculated core temperature around 16,000,000 K. There is no evidence of liquids as even the surface temperature of 5,700K is above the boiling point of anything you can think of. The model is verified by spectroscopy.
At sensible temperatures and pressures, the relationship between pressure, volume and temperature of a gas is pretty close to PV=RT where R is a universal constant.
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The temperature is maintained by evaporation as the surface turns to liquid and a gas it is drawn off the surface of the sun by the draft generated by the previous expansion.
Evaporation won't heat the surface, it does the opposite, it cools it. That is why people sweat, as the sweat evaporates it cools our bodies.
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There is no evidence of liquids as even the surface temperature of 5,700K is above the boiling point of anything you can think of. The model is verified by spectroscopy.
At sensible temperatures and pressures, the relationship between pressure, volume and temperature of a gas is pretty close to PV=RT where R is a universal constant.
Hi im chad. I am a layman who knows very little about physics, chemistry and math. I did none of these at school so please forgive my stupidity. I am quite sincere in my questions though and I really appreciate any and all responses.
I imagine the sun as a small dense ball with a shell of light which is concentrated through the condensate lense. So absolute zero core, evaporative layer, expansion zone, heat and reaction layer.
I have heaps of questions so please help correct my thinking.
Does the temp of the sun keep increasing all the way to the core?
Just like wood turns to gas on the surface but the centre does not (except when it turns to red hot coals (supernova)). The temperature is higher away from the surface of the wood. Is that correct?
If the sun is denser than our atmosphere would it increase the temperature would that increase the boiling point of everything? kind of like water boiling on Everest or at sea level.
Does density also change the temperature for absolute zero?
Light moves at walking pace through a BEC, this creates the concentration of light at any one point on the surface. When light is generated it has no fixed direction. In fact due to gravity it has a small bias to head towards the sun. Imagine a tennis ball covered in light, now imagine a pinpoint upon it. Light created years apart traveling through the BEC to the pinpoint arrives at the location as light generated elsewhere. As they reach the surface multiple "pieces" of light from varied angles of trajectory simultaneously explode from a single origin point giving of the specific spectrum range of our sun
Please don't give me a hard time over this. I do understand that I have it wrong but please help me gain the knowledge that I need and you have to help rid me of this ridiculous notion.
As the webpage crashed the first time I have typed this response twice now and it is very late at night. my last explaination was more thourough. and much less sh1t
be kind
chad
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The temperature is maintained by evaporation as the surface turns to liquid and a gas it is drawn off the surface of the sun by the draft generated by the previous expansion.
Evaporation won't heat the surface, it does the opposite, it cools it. That is why people sweat, as the sweat evaporates it cools our bodies.
The cooling generated by evaporation is how absolute 0 is reached. it cannot happen without it. It is in fact the entire basis for my ridiculos idea. plese keep adding what you know. I am very keen to rid my mind of this stupidity
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And people it does get worst when u add the slit experiment in.
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The cooling generated by evaporation is how absolute 0 is reached. it cannot happen without it.
It is not possible to reach absolute zero. There are several reasons for this but the easiest to understand is that heat always moves from hot to cold. To remove the last bit of heat before absolute zero you would have to have a heat sink LESS than absolute zero.
By the way evaporation won't get you anywhere close to absolute zero.
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plese keep adding what you know. I am very keen to rid my mind of this stupidity
Why try to go through each point and correct it? Here are some good and easy to understand sources on stars. Just learn the correct information.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star)
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question13.html (https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question13.html)
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/COMPLETE/learn/star_and_planet_formation.html (https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/COMPLETE/learn/star_and_planet_formation.html)
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plese keep adding what you know. I am very keen to rid my mind of this stupidity
Why try to go through each point and correct it? Here are some good easy to understand sources on stars. Just learn the correct information.
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Hey bobolink. Can you please show me how absolute 0 is attained. unfortunately all I can find is information thnat confirms evaporation is used to cool hydrogen and helium gas to reach the final 0.000000001 of a degree. I must be wrong though as after your message above I know you must have checked your sources
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Can you please show me how absolute 0 is attained.
We can't.
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Chad,
Sometimes the way to get to the end is to go back to the beginning.
So all I can suggest that thay you find something that can take you through a course in science.
The khan academy is probably a good start.
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Hey bobolink. Can you please show me how absolute 0 is attained.
It is not possible to reach absolute zero as discussed in the earlier post.
unfortunately all I can find is information thnat confirms evaporation is used to cool hydrogen and helium gas to reach the final 0.000000001 of a degree. I must be wrong though as after your message above I know you must have checked your sources
I am not aware of using evaporation to reach temperatures near absolute zero, I know about laser cooling and a couple others.
We're you able to look at the links I provided? Did they answer your questions about stars?
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Does the temp of the sun keep increasing all the way to the core?
Yes.
The surface of the Sun (that we can see with our eyes) is at a temperature of almost 6000C.
- We can see that the Sun is radiating energy in all directions through space, because we can see it lighting up the Earth, the other planets and comets (comets come in from all directions).
- To get this enormous heat to the surface of the Sun, it must come from somewhere even hotter, which is the layer underneath it.
The Sun gets its energy from nuclear reactions, something like a hydrogen bomb.
- We know from experience with hydrogen bombs that it takes extreme temperatures and pressures to start nuclear fusion.
We know that the Sun has nuclear fusion operating because on Earth we can detect tiny particles called neutrinos which are emitted by these nuclear fusion reactions in the Sun.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_neutrino
We know that the temperature and pressure in the center of the Sun is sufficient for nuclear fusion because we can measure "earthquake waves" on the Sun, which pass all the way through the Sun. We can use the speed and frequency of these vibrations to study the interior of the Sun.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helioseismology
The Sun is quite unlike wood; a log in the fire only burns at the surface, because that is the only part that is exposed to oxygen in the air, allowing the chemical reaction of burning.
- The Sun only "burns" at the center, because that is the only part that has sufficient temperature and pressure to sustain hydrogen fusion.
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there are 2 full length ones missing I will try and find them
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Why the videos? I don't watch videos on forums, what are they about? So anyway did you look at the links I gave and did they answer your questions?
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I imagine the sun as a small dense ball with a shell of light which is concentrated through the condensate lense. So absolute zero core, evaporative layer, expansion zone, heat and reaction layer.
No evidence to support your imagination.
Does the temp of the sun keep increasing all the way to the core?
Just like wood turns to gas on the surface but the centre does not (except when it turns to red hot coals (supernova)). The temperature is higher away from the surface of the wood. Is that correct?
The sun is not made of wood, and its heat does not come from surface oxidation (there is no oxygen in space).
If the sun is denser than our atmosphere would it increase the temperature would that increase the boiling point of everything? kind of like water boiling on Everest or at sea level.
yes, but irrelevant.
Does density also change the temperature for absolute zero?
no
Light moves at walking pace through a BEC, this creates the concentration of light at any one point on the surface. When light is generated it has no fixed direction. In fact due to gravity it has a small bias to head towards the sun. Imagine a tennis ball covered in light, now imagine a pinpoint upon it. Light created years apart traveling through the BEC to the pinpoint arrives at the location as light generated elsewhere. As they reach the surface multiple "pieces" of light from varied angles of trajectory simultaneously explode from a single origin point giving of the specific spectrum range of our sun
you have contradicted yourself in that tangled paragraph. Spectrum has nothing to do with direction.
If the sun were cold, it would not radiate heat to the earth. In my limited experience, days are warmer than nights. Therefore the sun is hot.
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there are 2 full length ones missing I will try and find them
Don't bother.
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Does the temp of the sun keep increasing all the way to the core?
Yes.
The surface of the Sun (that we can see with our eyes) is at a temperature of almost 6000C.
- We can see that the Sun is radiating energy in all directions through space, because we can see it lighting up the Earth, the other planets and comets (comets come in from all directions).
- To get this enormous heat to the surface of the Sun, it must come from somewhere even hotter, which is the layer underneath it.
The Sun gets its energy from nuclear reactions, something like a hydrogen bomb.
- We know from experience with hydrogen bombs that it takes extreme temperatures and pressures to start nuclear fusion.
We know that the Sun has nuclear fusion operating because on Earth we can detect tiny particles called neutrinos which are emitted by these nuclear fusion reactions in the Sun.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_neutrino
We know that the temperature and pressure in the center of the Sun is sufficient for nuclear fusion because we can measure "earthquake waves" on the Sun, which pass all the way through the Sun. We can use the speed and frequency of these vibrations to study the interior of the Sun.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helioseismology
The Sun is quite unlike wood; a log in the fire only burns at the surface, because that is the only part that is exposed to oxygen in the air, allowing the chemical reaction of burning.
- The Sun only "burns" at the center, because that is the only part that has sufficient temperature and pressure to sustain hydrogen fusion.
Ok. there was an aweful lot in those 2 and I know I didn't understand most of it.
1. At what density to atoms stop moving?
2. For there to be a core is it a point or a mass?
3. As density increases boiling point increases is this correct?
4. Heat is absorbed by the gas as it moves from a liquid (more dense) to gas. in a mass that has variable density high in the centre to less in the outer region. As the density decreases the moving particles absorb the heat from others near by. accelerating and expanding while helping to maintain the constant lower temperature as well as its higher density.
5. When a liquid cools from evaporation the entire substance is cooled yet the heat transfer only happens at the surface. When you put hot water in the freezer it freezes faster than room temperature as the convec tion causes the liquid to cool faster. the more turbulent the faster the rate of cooling by energised outward heading particles
the internal rigidly rotating core absolute 0 (or no movment density) and separation from differentially rotating envelope surrounded by a conve tion layer does sound a little like my stupid idea.
but hence why I worded this about temp and density. As I can see resolving the distinction between absolute 0 and no movement density
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Ok. there was an aweful lot in those 2 and I know I didn't understand most of it.
1. At what density to atoms stop moving?
2. For there to be a core is it a point or a mass?
3. As density increases boiling point increases is this correct?
4. Heat is absorbed by the gas as it moves from a liquid (more dense) to gas. in a mass that has variable density high in the centre to less in the outer region. As the density decreases the moving particles absorb the heat from others near by. accelerating and expanding while helping to maintain the constant lower temperature as well as its higher density.
5. When a liquid cools from evaporation the entire substance is cooled yet the heat transfer only happens at the surface. When you put hot water in the freezer it freezes faster than room temperature as the convec tion causes the liquid to cool faster. the more turbulent the faster the rate of cooling by energised outward heading particles
the internal rigidly rotating core absolute 0 (or no movment density) and separation from differentially rotating envelope surrounded by a conve tion layer does sound a little like my stupid idea.
but hence why I worded this about temp and density. As I can see resolving the distinction between absolute 0 and no movement density
Gee, it almost seems like you're just a crank pushing his pseudoscience ideas under the guise of innocent questions.
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I imagine the sun as a small dense ball with a shell of light which is concentrated through the condensate lense. So absolute zero core, evaporative layer, expansion zone, heat and reaction layer.
No evidence to support your imagination.
Does the temp of the sun keep increasing all the way to the core?
Just like wood turns to gas on the surface but the centre does not (except when it turns to red hot coals (supernova)). The temperature is higher away from the surface of the wood. Is that correct?
The sun is not made of wood, and its heat does not come from surface oxidation (there is no oxygen in space).
If the sun is denser than our atmosphere would it increase the temperature would that increase the boiling point of everything? kind of like water boiling on Everest or at sea level.
yes, but irrelevant.
Does density also change the temperature for absolute zero?
no
Light moves at walking pace through a BEC, this creates the concentration of light at any one point on the surface. When light is generated it has no fixed direction. In fact due to gravity it has a small bias to head towards the sun. Imagine a tennis ball covered in light, now imagine a pinpoint upon it. Light created years apart traveling through the BEC to the pinpoint arrives at the location as light generated elsewhere. As they reach the surface multiple "pieces" of light from varied angles of trajectory simultaneously explode from a single origin point giving of the specific spectrum range of our sun
you have contradicted yourself in that tangled paragraph. Spectrum has nothing to do with direction.
If the sun were cold, it would not radiate heat to the earth. In my limited experience, days are warmer than nights. Therefore the sun is hot.
I realise the sun is not wood but the wood burning is representative of the high density fuel component in the chemical reaction. in a vaccume and free from gravity the core or wood would not be as hot as the surface and in fact would stay cooler due to the convection drafts if you had a contained oxygen source. I realise it is probably a poor example as it is difficult to demonstrate.
The different radiation frequencies created a diffgerent times they become unified and give off the specific light frequency of our type of sun.
ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY IS NOT IRRELIVANT. if it is tell me why please. the particles fused together by density would also create elemental pockets separated by their thermal realctivity but the atmospheric density stops the substances from becoming diffused or diluted into a gaseous ball.
The Heat is removed by the outward flow of energy. those heated particles are not decelerated by contact with stationary particles as the expansion rate is fairly consistant.
I think I must just be really unintelligent and full of imagination. I am sorry if what I am saying is merely incomprehensi ble blabber.
I am sorry to have caused you to waste time.
Please just tell me is there a density at which particles stop moving? And provide me with a place I can get the evidence. thanks everyone
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Ok. there was an aweful lot in those 2 and I know I didn't understand most of it.
1. At what density to atoms stop moving?
2. For there to be a core is it a point or a mass?
3. As density increases boiling point increases is this correct?
4. Heat is absorbed by the gas as it moves from a liquid (more dense) to gas. in a mass that has variable density high in the centre to less in the outer region. As the density decreases the moving particles absorb the heat from others near by. accelerating and expanding while helping to maintain the constant lower temperature as well as its higher density.
5. When a liquid cools from evaporation the entire substance is cooled yet the heat transfer only happens at the surface. When you put hot water in the freezer it freezes faster than room temperature as the convec tion causes the liquid to cool faster. the more turbulent the faster the rate of cooling by energised outward heading particles
the internal rigidly rotating core absolute 0 (or no movment density) and separation from differentially rotating envelope surrounded by a conve tion layer does sound a little like my stupid idea.
but hence why I worded this about temp and density. As I can see resolving the distinction between absolute 0 and no movement density
Gee, it almost seems like you're just a crank pushing his pseudoscience ideas under the guise of innocent questions.
I am legitimately genuine in my questions. Why are they ridiculous questions? I really want to understand these things in some way if I can. I have no vested interest. no web pages or facebook pages that try to sell this to anyone. I am asking a crowd of superior minds with a sincere desire to gleen their insight and understand where I went wrong in my ideas.
I recognise that with the current data input streams I have, I am incapable of gaining what is necessary to see where I went wrong. I thought this is what people are supposed to do. When they hit a wall in their capacity they reach out to the community. I may have gone a long way down the wrong path but it wasn't totally free from some sort of logical progression.
I never intended to stray so far in my mind from the accepted theories and it began in a small way innocently. Now I truly need help to correct my thinking but it is impossible to just forget all that I have speculated and begin again.
I have nothing to gain by thinking this way. hence why I reached out. To any of you so perfect in your beliefs that you have never been convinced by misguided thoughts, you will not understand. But to those who have been convinced by improper facts please reflect a moment. Did it work when people just said YOU ARE WRONG. or did you need help to see the path again
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Ok. there was an aweful lot in those 2 and I know I didn't understand most of it.
1. At what density to atoms stop moving?
OK, let's assume your questions are real.
They don't stop moving. As you go deeper into the core the pressure increases and the ions (ions are atoms with the electrons stripped away) move faster.
2. For there to be a core is it a point or a mass?
The core of the sun encompasses a volume with a radius of about .2 of the solar radius. The mass is plasma at a temperature of about 15,000,000K and a density of about 150 gm/cm^3.
3. As density increases boiling point increases is this correct?
No, that is not correct. I think you mean as the air pressure increases the boiling point increases
4. Heat is absorbed by the gas as it moves from a liquid (more dense) to gas. in a mass that has variable density high in the centre to less in the outer region. As the density decreases the moving particles absorb the heat from others near by. accelerating and expanding while helping to maintain the constant lower temperature as well as its higher density.
None of that really makes much sense
5. When a liquid cools from evaporation the entire substance is cooled yet the heat transfer only happens at the surface.
Right, there is heat transferred through the material to the cooler surface.
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When a liquid cools from evaporation
A couple of points here:
- The Sun is not a liquid, composed of atoms and molecules. It is a different state of matter, a "plasma", where the electrons are ripped away from their nuclei.
- The transparent corona of the Sun is not a vapor evaporated off the liquid visible surface of the Sun. Like the visible surface of the Sun, it is also a plasma (but less dense than the visible surface).
the heat transfer only happens at the surface
Heat transfer happens throughout the whole volume of the Sun, transferring heat from the nuclear fusion in the center out to surface, the Earth, and beyond.
- The inner region transfers heat mainly by radiation
- The outer section transfers heat mainly by convection
- Energy travels from the visible surface to the Earth by radiation.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Structure_and_fusion
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Ok. I was clearly overwhelmed and unprepared for this. After better considering my assumptions I recognise my theory was not presented well.
I assume based on black holes that light is affected or drawn towards object with a high density in space. So at the point of a fusion reaction the light has a tendency to travel towards the core.
Currently they use lasers or light focused on a point to minimise a particles movement and causing it to loose heat.
Am I correct to making these 2 assumptions.
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Am I correct to making these 2 assumptions.
No.
Seriously, you need to start at the beginning and learn some science.
https://www.khanacademy.org/signup
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Ok. I was clearly overwhelmed and unprepared for this. After better considering my assumptions I recognise my theory was not presented well.
If you wanted to fly an airplane, would you read a couple of articles on flying an immediately to out and jump into pilot seat and try to take off? I hope not. You would take flying lessons that would entail learning the theory and have an instructor carefully teach you.
Trying to make a theory about how stars work at this point is like jumping into the pilot seat completely unprepared. In both cases you are destined to crash and burn.
Ask questions. Listen to the answers. Read the articles that member suggest. Learning about the universe is great fun! Making up theories based on misconceptions and a lack of knowledge is a waste of time.
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black holes ...high density in space... the core (of the Sun).
"High density" is a relative thing... and your assumptions about the density of the Sun's core are out by a factor of over 1,000,000,000,000.
- A stellar-mass black hole with a mass 10 times larger than the Sun would have a radius of around 30km. This does significantly distort the path of light, and any light inside the event horizon can only travel towards the singularity at the center.
- A neutron star with a mass a mass of about 1.4 times the mass of the Sun would have a radius around 10 kilometres. A teaspoon would weigh around 5 billion tons. But this density is not enough to form an event horizon, or to direct all light inwards - we can see neutron stars in space as "pulsars".
- The Sun's core has a density around 150 times higher than water. A teaspoon of it would have a mass less than a kilogram. This is definitely not enough to change the path of light very much at all - Eddington's experiment in 1919 measured a very small deflection of light during an eclipse of the Sun.
- The Solar Wind, which fills our Solar System would have about 20 hydrogen atoms in a teaspoon. But this is far denser than intergalactic space.
Conclusion: The density of the center of the Sun is far less than a stellar-mass black hole.
- Heat from fusion reactions at the center of the Sun can travel outwards to the surface of the Sun, although I have seen estimates that it takes around a million years for energy created in the center of the Sun to find its way to the surface of the Sun (and 8 minutes later, it reaches Earth's orbit).
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Properties_and_structure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddington_experiment
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It's never wrong to use your mind dfi. But your idea is better placed in 'New Theories' methinks. And it is as BC suggest,, you should check up on the current ideas of how it work first. That as any new hypothesis needs to defend itself against those old, as well as suggesting a way to check it. The idea of suns and fusion is connected to astronomy as a whole, explaining birth and evolution of this universe and all its different (types of) stars. They in their turn, then becomes the producers of what we call matter.. You can't get that in a Bose-Einstein condensate. And Evan's explanations are nicely done too.
So to get your theory to work I think you will need to introduce some grand changes to all physics. And Khan's academy is supposed to be one of the best internet resources if you're curious
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First this https://nuclear.duke-energy.com/2013/01/30/fission-vs-fusion-whats-the-difference
Then https://owlcation.com/stem/Stellar-Evolution-Stages-in-the-Life-Cycle-of-Stars