Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: yovav on 29/07/2020 04:03:16

Title: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 29/07/2020 04:03:16
Do planets rule our destiny?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/07/2020 04:53:27
Only the planet Earth, because we live on it.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Colin2B on 29/07/2020 08:38:56
Do planets rule our destiny?
If they were to collide with earth, then yes.
If you mean as in astrology, then no, that mythology has no place in physics.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/07/2020 10:24:00
Absolutely.

By the time the sun has entered your birth sign 100 times, most people are dead.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: evan_au on 29/07/2020 10:26:25
Yes, to some extent...
if your Phd depends on a particular instrument making it to Mars, and the lander crashes (as many have)...
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 30/07/2020 07:36:11
If they were to collide with earth, then yes.
If you mean as in astrology, then no, that mythology has no place in physics.
[/quote

No, I do not really mean astrology.
But also not to a state of collision with the ground.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 30/07/2020 07:37:24
Only the planet Earth, because we live on it.

And there are no interactions with other celestial bodies that might affect our sphere?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 30/07/2020 07:39:54
Absolutely.

By the time the sun has entered your birth sign 100 times, most people are dead.

Can celestial bodies be affected by our human interactions in this world?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Colin2B on 30/07/2020 07:51:32
And there are no interactions with other celestial bodies that might affect our sphere?
The moon and other planets cause extremely small changes to the earth’s path around the sun.

Can celestial bodies be affected by our human interactions in this world?
Our interactions are extremely small compared to the planetary scale, so no.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: evan_au on 30/07/2020 09:05:02
Quote from: Yovav
Can celestial bodies be affected by our human interactions in this world?
Maybe our human activities can make small changes to small celestial bodies...

The DART space mission is intended to demonstrate a capability to divert any asteroids that are found to be on a collision course with Earth.
- The amount of diversion would be small, but over 100 orbits, that makes the difference between an impact and a miss.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Asteroid_Redirection_Test
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/07/2020 09:27:28
The moon determines tides. The sun has some tidal effect, and also makes wind and rain happen. The angle of the earth's axis relative to the sun determines seasons. If it all hangs together nicely, you get a good crop and plenty of fish. If the planets don't align nicely, you get droughts, hurricanes and floods. Long-term it all evens out, but in any one year, every person's fate depends in some way on these planetary motions.   
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 01/08/2020 12:24:53
If it all hangs together nicely,

Are we likely to find that this situation is related to human relationships?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Bill S on 01/08/2020 14:46:42
Quote from: yovav
Are we likely to find that this situation is related to human relationships?

As far as we know, we live in a finite Universe.

There is an obvious cyclicity. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to assume that there is a finite number of possible cycles.

There is a finite number of people who can populate a finite Universe.

People have different personalities and characteristics.  There must be a finite number of these.

If everything else is cyclic, the distribution of these characteristics may also be cyclic.

Astrologers may have spotted this duel cyclicity and attempted to link the two in a causative way. Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Marks for imagination, rather than science, please. :)
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/08/2020 20:55:58
Quote
Are we likely to find that this situation is related to human relationships?

Only in the sense that weather and food availability impact how we feel, where we go and the probability of certain kinds of accidents and disasters. The gravity itself is going to have no measurable impact on us.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: alancalverd on 01/08/2020 23:58:15
If it all hangs together nicely,

Are we likely to find that this situation is related to human relationships?
Eventually, if we keep reproducing and finding cures for disease, we will run out of potable water (i.e. rain) and start killing each other for access to the habitable bit between high tide and desert.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 02/08/2020 17:45:15
Marks for imagination, rather than science, please.
I understand you, but I mean science and not astrology.
If we examine ourselves we can say in some way that the universe is within us.
Where did the gold come from? The iron we have in our blood? The calcium found in the bones?
It all came from those stars who are factories for making elements.
We are basically stardust, so it is not delusional that a change in our molecules will cause a change in the celestial bodies.
Of course this is just my hypothesis that is not empirical.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 02/08/2020 17:47:09
We are basically stardust, so it is not delusional that a change in our molecules will cause a change in the celestial bodies.

Based on what reasoning? Just because a car crashes, that doesn't mean it will somehow affect the factory where it was made hundreds of miles away.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 02/08/2020 17:47:38
ventually, if we keep reproducing and finding cures for disease, we will run out of potable water (i.e. rain) and start killing each other for access to the habitable bit between high tide and desert.
I mean the same molecules that we are made of, the same molecules that came from the death of the stars and supernovae.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 02/08/2020 17:51:48
Based on what reasoning? Just because a car crashes, that doesn't mean it will somehow affect the factory where it was made hundreds of miles away.
I loved the answer.
You are right, as if there is no justification for making a causal argument.
At the same time today when we begin to notice that our world is the result of desires, thoughts and intentions, then also perceptions change, beginnings of new paradigms undermine the old perceptions.
And at the same time I agree with you that there is a missing element here that will connect it to something that could be close to the same touchstones of scientific research.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 02/08/2020 17:54:25
You are right, as if there is no justification for making a causal argument.

So why even propose that there is one?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: evan_au on 02/08/2020 23:02:56
Quote from: Yovav
We are basically stardust, so it is not delusional that a change in our molecules will cause a change in the celestial bodies.
The Earth (and everything on it) is a celestial body, so a change in our molecules represents a change on the Earth as a celestial body.

One possible outcome for the Earth is that it may be swallowed by the Sun when it grows into a red giant star (in roughly 5 billion years). In that case, whatever is left of our molecules will become part of a larger celestial body, the Sun. But Earth's atoms will have an insignificant impact on the Sun - and any remaining molecules will be torn apart - and even the atoms torn apart (tuned into a plasma) in the Sun.

In the even longer term, it it possible that much of the Milky Way galaxy (including a cold cinder that was once the Sun) could fall into a galactic black hole. In that case, our molecules will impact that celestial body, but will make little visible difference to that supermassive black hole.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 07/08/2020 09:01:06
"However the atoms of the earth will have an insignificant effect on the sun"

And perhaps this will be the new discovery of the 21st century.
How change in the atoms of our will has an effect on our planet.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 07/08/2020 17:46:33
And perhaps this will be the new discovery of the 21st century.
How change in the atoms of our will has an effect on our planet.

Why is there any reason to think that it will be?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 07/08/2020 19:11:52
And perhaps this will be the new discovery of the 21st century.
How change in the atoms of our will has an effect on our planet.

Why is there any reason to think that it will be?
Your question is good and I will try to answer: 90 percent of the elements in our body came from massive supernovae and stars that exploded billions of years ago.
There are many examples of substances in our body that most of us do not recognize that came with tweezers from the same phenomena and if those phenomena had not occurred, we could not now communicate.
For example, the reason our heart is currently beating is because we have a small molecule of hemoglobin, and that molecule carries a small atom called HEME B
A single atom of HEME B is the only iron found in our heart that allows us to transfer oxygen to our body.
For billions of years galaxies have mixed and collided to form massive stars that have driven the process of iron formation that goes through each of our veins in every heartbeat and in this way all of our heartbeats are connected.
So I ask myself, if we were connected long before we knew about the very existence of a global village.
So I think to myself, in what other ways are we connected that we still have no idea about.
Are our thoughts, intentions and desires also connected to the same system?
And will the same model that dangled from the top down through different forces bring us during our development to the possibility that we will be affected by it and in re-feeding we will be able to influence back on the phenomena that occur in our world?
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Kryptid on 07/08/2020 20:28:06
So I think to myself, in what other ways are we connected that we still have no idea about.

If we literally have no idea about it then we can't even speculate on it.

Are our thoughts, intentions and desires also connected to the same system?

Only in the sense that those things are affected by the occurrences in our lives. If I see a shooting star, it might influence me to do research on shooting stars and eventually become an astronomer one day. If you are claiming the opposite (that our thoughts or intentions can affect a shooting star) then you're going to have to pony up some serious evidence for it.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 08/08/2020 01:18:09
If you are claiming the opposite (that our thoughts or intentions can affect a shooting star) then you're going to have to pony up some serious evidence for it.
I have no doubt you are right and as long as there is no evidence it remains in theoretical examination. I agree with every word.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: evan_au on 08/08/2020 01:30:52
Quote from: Yovav (emphasis added)
we have a small molecule of hemoglobin, and that molecule carries a small atom called HEME B
Editorial comment: If I understand it correctly,
- HEME B is a molecule which contains an atom of iron.
- Four HEME B molecules are bound together (with some proteins) to form a larger molecule hemoglobin
- The hemoglobin makes up a large fraction of red blood cells.
- The red blood cells are the dominant mechanism for carrying oxygen from the lungs around the body, and carbon dioxide from the body to the lungs (to be exhaled).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heme_B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin#Structure_of_heme
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 08/08/2020 05:49:43
If I understand it correctly,

The physiological functions of Heme  group are due to the ability of the iron atom to bind small molecules (a bi-atomic molecule of oxygen, for example), as well as to  oxygenate (donate electrons and receive electrons, respectively) other compounds.
Heme b is atom in our heart that allows oxygen to pass through the bloodstream.
Of course, this is only possible thanks to the proximity of certain amino acids of the protein that surrounds the group of Heme

Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: Colin2B on 08/08/2020 09:08:13
If I understand it correctly,
Heme b is atom in our heart that allows oxygen to pass through the bloodstream.
Evan was pointing out that Heme B is not an atom, but a molecule made of not only Fe but also C, H, O and N.
Title: Re: Do planets rule our destiny?
Post by: yovav on 08/08/2020 15:25:35
If I understand it correctly,
Heme b is atom in our heart that allows oxygen to pass through the bloodstream.
Evan was pointing out that Heme B is not an atom, but a molecule made of not only Fe but also C, H, O and N.
OK so he was right.
  structure of molecule: C34H34O4N4Fe