Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Just thinking on 05/07/2021 09:16:21
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Objects can move faster than light speed. If we take a bowl of jelly and place the jelly on a table let's push on one side of that jelly will the opposite side move only if we push hard enuff and the movement will have taken some time to transfer throw the jelly. Now let's take a solid object say a coffee mug and place it on a table push gently on one side and the other side of the mug will move at the same moment in time if I am not mistaken I would suggest that the movement of the opposite sides of the mug moved faster than the speed of light can traverse the same distance. This would be the same for any object already in motion as you drive your car the front bumper bar moves in harmony with the rear bumper bar. Crazy as it may seem I believe it to be true. Can you shed any light on this subject? Thank you for reading.
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the other side of the mug will move at the same moment in time if I am not mistaken
You are mistaken.
The "push" travels through the mug at the speed of sound in the ceramic (or whatever).
Sound travels faster in most solids than in air, but the speed is still much less than the speed of light
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The "push" travels through the mug at the speed of sound in the ceramic
You have missed my point at no time have I referred to sound only the movement of an object.
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You have missed my point at no time have I referred to sound only the movement of an object.
He understood you and didn't miss your point. The physical push can't travel through the object faster than the speed of sound (for the material the object is made of). That doesn't mean he's mistaking your push for sound.
In any case, even without the mundane effects of the compressibility of stuff, there are relativistic effects too.
I forget the name of the effect (it's _like_ Bell's paradox), but essentially, you can't accelerate the front and back of an object at the _same time_. Another relativity of simultaenity thing.
You're not the first to come up with this kind of idea. Search for people thinking they could have faster than light communication by using a very long rod and pushing one end ...
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Search for people thinking they could have faster than light communication by using a very long rod and pushing one end ...
Still sound has nothing to do with my thread and of course the longer the object the more compressibility there is . I am referring only to selective objects that are solid small and uniform in shape obviously you cant stretch out a garden hose and push one end and expect the other end to move.
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The "push" travels through the mug at the speed of sound in the ceramic
You have missed my point at no time have I referred to sound only the movement of an object.
No, you misunderstood your own point.
The push travels through the object at the speed of sound. About 5 or 6 km/ sec in typical ceramics.
You push the molecules near your finger, they push the ones slightly further along, they push the next lot, and so on.
That is exactly the same mechanism as the transmission of sound, and that's why it happens at the same speed.
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obviously you cant stretch out a garden hose and push one end and expect the other end to move.
Actually, you can.
The usual problem is that the hose is on the ground and friction stops the wave propagating, though internal damping does have quite a big effect too.
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That is exactly the same mechanism as the transmission of sound, and that's why it happens at the same speed.
You are totally wrong as air molecules are pact less tightly than that of a solid. Sound travels throw a solid much faster than it travels throw air. And still I am not referring to the speed of sound in any case.
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Sound travels throw a solid much faster than it travels throw air.
That's what I said.
(though I can spell "through" correctly).
The push travels through the object at the speed of sound. About 5 or 6 km/ sec in typical ceramics.
You are totally wrong as air molecules are pact less tightly than that of a solid.
Nobody said they were not less tightly packed.
But the mechanism is still the same.
And still I am not referring to the speed of sound in any case.
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Yes you are. you just don't understand why you are.
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Yes you are. you just don't understand why you are.
Let's say we use a small diamond for this experiment and we push one side very lightly so as not to stimulate any compression now what do you think will hapen.
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so as not to stimulate any compression
That is impossible.
Even the smallest force will compress it.
The ratio of the force to the extent of compression is Called the Young's modulus.
And it's never infinity.
So, why not stop pretending that you know more than everyone else, and start learning?
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So, why not stop pretending that you know more than everyone else, and start learning?
You seem to think that the fiscal movement of a given object is equal to the speed of sound travelling through it. The sound will be a constant where as the movement will depend on the mass of the object the larger and heavier the object the more compression there will be therefore slowing down the time of movement of the opposite side of the object.
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I believe that the propagation of movement is faster than the propagation of sound in a selective medium. this velocity of movement can be influenced by gravity friction and the very object its self regarding its mass weight and its makeup.
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We live in space-time where time and space are connected and need to work as a team. Their team effort is similar to a three legged race, that attaches time and space, by one leg, so they need to coordinate their movement, to be able to move forward in time and space. This awkward three legged connection slows both of them down, with the limit of their team speed, being the speed of light.
If we could separate the three legged space-time into separated space and separated time, then the speed of light is not longer the limit. The speed of light is the limit for the three legged race, but not the limit for races that involve one person running at a time. Time might be faster than space or vice or versa In either case, without the three legged connection to slow the fastest down, faster speeds become possible, for one or both.
If you plug the speed of light into the three equations for Special Relativity, discontinuities appear in distance, time and mass. The three legged race is no longer in effect.
As an example, human consciousness and the imagination can allow us to fly to the sun in two seconds, which should violate the speed of light. Yet my imagination can do this. There is no brain blockage due to space-time or the speed of light. I can also use my imagination to go back into time to infer the early instant of the BB, all while not moving in distance; sitting at my desk. Consciousness has the hardware in place to step out of space-time via thought and imagination. This is not the same as physically doing this with mass and matter. However, since thinking and information has no mass, that limit of mass does not apply to consciousness.
All options, possible and impossible can exists in the imagination. We can build a sky scraper in an instant and then balance it on a needle before transporting it to Andromeda, all before lunch. On the other hand, only certain options are possible within space-time, since mass and matter run the show, and they set connected limits for both space and time. We may will need to slow down time and limit ourselves in space to maintain the limits crested by matter.
I can imagine a bridge over the Atlantic ocean make of noodles. This is not possible in space-time. However, that odd idea now exists in time, but only in the limited space, where others have read this. Information and thought, is not under the material limits of space-time. Many scenarios can work that exceed the speed of light, using a thought matrix where space-time becomes untied.
A worm hole can move matter across the universe is an instant of time. Quantum jumps can move in smaller spaces in zero time. Is this imagination, or part of a parallel universe not ruled by matter, where space and time can each run their own race?
All the forces of nature; natural and unnatural create accelerations, which are d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time. This is the three legged race of space-time plus an extra time vector not restricted by space. The forces of nature are the same in all references. The forces include a vector of time, that is independent of space-time references. It is as though information is wired into the forces so they can act the same wherever they might travel; inner beat in time.
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That fits in with what I was thinking to. Thanks for that puppypower.
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I believe that the propagation of movement is faster than the propagation of sound in a selective medium.
You are wrong.
Let me know when something changes.
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We live in space-time where time and space are connected and need to work as a team. Their team effort is similar to a three legged race, that attaches time and space, by one leg, so they need to coordinate their movement, to be able to move forward in time and space. This awkward three legged connection slows both of them down, with the limit of their team speed, being the speed of light.
If we could separate the three legged space-time into separated space and separated time, then the speed of light is not longer the limit. The speed of light is the limit for the three legged race, but not the limit for races that involve one person running at a time. Time might be faster than space or vice or versa In either case, without the three legged connection to slow the fastest down, faster speeds become possible, for one or both.
If you plug the speed of light into the three equations for Special Relativity, discontinuities appear in distance, time and mass. The three legged race is no longer in effect.
As an example, human consciousness and the imagination can allow us to fly to the sun in two seconds, which should violate the speed of light. Yet my imagination can do this. There is no brain blockage due to space-time or the speed of light. I can also use my imagination to go back into time to infer the early instant of the BB, all while not moving in distance; sitting at my desk. Consciousness has the hardware in place to step out of space-time via thought and imagination. This is not the same as physically doing this with mass and matter. However, since thinking and information has no mass, that limit of mass does not apply to consciousness.
All options, possible and impossible can exists in the imagination. We can build a sky scraper in an instant and then balance it on a needle before transporting it to Andromeda, all before lunch. On the other hand, only certain options are possible within space-time, since mass and matter run the show, and they set connected limits for both space and time. We may will need to slow down time and limit ourselves in space to maintain the limits crested by matter.
I can imagine a bridge over the Atlantic ocean make of noodles. This is not possible in space-time. However, that odd idea now exists in time, but only in the limited space, where others have read this. Information and thought, is not under the material limits of space-time. Many scenarios can work that exceed the speed of light, using a thought matrix where space-time becomes untied.
A worm hole can move matter across the universe is an instant of time. Quantum jumps can move in smaller spaces in zero time. Is this imagination, or part of a parallel universe not ruled by matter, where space and time can each run their own race?
All the forces of nature; natural and unnatural create accelerations, which are d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time. This is the three legged race of space-time plus an extra time vector not restricted by space. The forces of nature are the same in all references. The forces include a vector of time, that is independent of space-time references. It is as though information is wired into the forces so they can act the same wherever they might travel; inner beat in time.
Irrelevant word salad.
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You are wrong.
Let me know when something changes.
I check out this Tomas young on Wikipedia and come up with a blank there was nothing about movement velocity only sound.
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there was nothing about movement velocity only sound.
That's because the velocity of sound is important and the " movement velocity" is nonsense you invented.
Not sure what this has to do with anything.
I check out this Tomas young on Wikipedia
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That's because the velocity of sound is important
Sound is only important in the air sometimes in water but I can't swim so only important in the air for me.
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I believe that the propagation of movement is faster than the propagation of sound in a selective medium.
You are wrong.
Let me know when something changes.
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Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 01:20:05
That's because the velocity of sound is important
Sound is only important in the air sometimes in water but I can't swim so only important in the air for me.
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That's because the velocity of sound is important
Sound is only important in the air sometimes in water but I can't swim so only important in the air for me.
You seem to have forgotten what you were talking about.
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You seem to have forgotten what you were talking about.
I started to laugh but now I have forgotten why it was so funny. Why was it funny again?
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Do you have any evidence that the far side of the mug will begin to move in less than about 10 microseconds after the initial change of motion on the near side? Science says the delay is at least 10 microseconds, at least without breaking the mug. If you have no such evidence, then your assertion is irrational.
Crazy as it may seem I believe it to be true.
I believe that the propagation of movement is faster than the propagation of sound in a selective medium.
Science is about evidence, not beliefs. The latter forms the foundation of religion, which is in the realm of philosophy, not science..
You are free to state irrational beliefs like this, but it leaves me wondering why you would choose to do so. If you were merely ignorant of the physics, you'd likely be open to being corrected, but you display no such openness.
Few people that are actually this ignorant would choose to go on public record about it. Therefore I suspect you are not, and don't actually hold this belief, but are making the statements anyway for another purpose. So for what purpose have you opened this topic?
essentially, you can't accelerate the front and back of an object at the _same time_. Another relativity of simultaenity thing.
You cannot begin accelerate both ends of an object at the same time by a force applied to only one of those ends. A force applied to both ends will of course allow the entire length of the thing to accelerate, and force in the past allows both ends to accelerate at once, just like my entire car might be accelerating halfway down the freeway ramp and not just one end.
This is Newtonian physics, and Bell's spaceship paradox has nothing to do with it. It has to do with unequal acceleration of long rigid objects and length contraction. But the speed of sound thing is about physical strain (distortion) on an object of finite rigidity.
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You are free to state irrational beliefs like this, but it leaves me wondering why you would choose to do so. If you were merely ignorant of the physics, you'd likely be open to being corrected, but you display no such openness.
Few people that are actually this ignorant would choose to go on public record about it. Therefore I suspect you are not, and don't actually hold this belief, but are making the statements anyway for another purpose. So for what purpose have you opened this topic?
I suppose we would need to have a very high speed canera and time the corresponding speed of light, sound, and ridged object and see if the motion of the object is closer to your sound or closer to my light speed. you can fund the experiment if you like but until then I will stick with my belief. A diamond can relay sound at over 100 miles per second a very small diamond will have next to no compression from one side to the other especially with a very small nudge.
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The problem here is that you refuse to see that the speed you are tying to measure is, in fact, the speed of sound.
Until you get to grips with that simple fact, you are not going to make progress.
I will stick with my belief.
I believe that the propagation of movement is faster than the propagation of sound in a selective medium.
You are wrong.
Let me know when something changes.
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Just thinking, you really need to listen to what everyone else is saying. Pushing an object, no matter how gently, will result in a pressure wave traveling through the object at the speed of sound through that object. That pressure wave is what moves the atoms in the material in the first place. That pressure wave carries the force that is necessary in order to cause the atoms to move. No pressure wave = no movement.
For further information, take a look: https://www.spaceanswers.com/deep-space/what-would-happen-if-you-poked-someone-with-a-one-light-year-long-stick/
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Just thinking, you really need to listen to what everyone else is saying.
Sound like I'm speaking with a gentleman now. I am willing to research this matter further but while I do that some people seem to need some anger management therapy. I think the temperament and the mood have been a little on the immature side in this debate.
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For further information, take a look
Thanks for that link Kryptid. I read through it and found it very interesting and I noticed at the end that the writer gave a very friendly invitation to give an opinion. In the scenario presented the stick is very long containing much mass and with no doubt that would reduce the transfer of energy, in fact, I think the transfer of energy would reach a point of cancellation due to the waveform over such a long lenth. However, my example describes a very small object of a rather rigid construction such as the mug or better still a very small diamond I feel that this would have a very different effect on the experoment. unfortunately, I do not think any experiments have been done to either prove or disprove the point that I have made. extreme hi-speed imaging would be required along with very technical and advanced actuators to perform this task. anyway, thank you again.
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You cannot begin accelerate both ends of an object at the same time by a force applied to only one of those ends. A force applied to both ends will of course allow the entire length of the thing to accelerate, and force in the past allows both ends to accelerate at once, just like my entire car might be accelerating halfway down the freeway ramp and not just one end.
This is Newtonian physics, and Bell's spaceship paradox has nothing to do with it. It has to do with unequal acceleration of long rigid objects and length contraction. But the speed of sound thing is about physical strain (distortion) on an object of finite rigidity.
I very clearly did NOT deny the basic truth of the usual Newtonian physics based answer.
I just like to point out that there's also a relativistic effect (which I did NOT say was Bell's spaceship paradox) in play. It's very much the poor cousin as the Newtonian answer (which again, is correct) is always the first answer. I'll try to find the thread (can't remember if it was this forum or another) where I saw it discussed in detail.
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So for what purpose have you opened this topic?
For the purpose of my belief. I believe in my statement until proven otherwise. As the speed of sound has been analysed as it travels through different medians but the speed of movement has not been analysed nor has it been compared in any scientific way and the more I think about how it could be analysed the more complicated it becomes so good luck if anyone wishes to try.
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However, my example describes a very small object of a rather rigid construction such as the mug or better still a very small diamond I feel that this would have a very different effect on the experoment. unfortunately, I do not think any experiments have been done to either prove or disprove the point that I have made. extreme hi-speed imaging would be required along with very technical and advanced actuators to perform this task. anyway, thank you again.
The necessary experiments to determine this have already been done. A whole bunch of them. The experiments I'm talking about are the ones that support special relativity. Special relativity prevents information (such as a pressure wave traveling through a solid) from moving faster than light.
I believe in my statement until proven otherwise.
It has been, as I just pointed out.
Let's break this down to the level of atoms. Inside of the diamond in your thought experiment, there are carbon atoms bonded to each other. You apply a force and one of those carbon atoms moves more closely to a neighboring carbon atom. What is it that is going to cause the first carbon atom to transmit a force to the second carbon atom? The answer is the electromagnetic interaction.
Each atom consists of a negatively-charged electron cloud around a positively-charged nucleus. Since the electron clouds of two adjacent atoms are both negatively-charged, they repel each other. When the electron cloud of the first atom becomes closer to the electron cloud of the second atom, it produces a greater repulsive force on it than it experienced before. This is what causes the second atom to move. However, the electromagnetic force is transmitted by photons, which travel at the speed of light. Therefore, any movement due to changing electrostatic repulsion is inherently limited to the speed of light because that is as fast as photons can possibly carry a change in the field.
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It has been, as I just pointed out.
With all that said and thank you for that do you think ore no is the propagation of sound corresponding with the propagation of movement is there a correlation between the two properties?
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do you think ore no is the propagation of sound corresponding with the propagation of movement is there a correlation between the two properties?
Yeah, the speed of sound is more-or-less the speed of atoms bumping into each other in a material. That's why the speed of sound is faster in hot air than in cold air (because the atoms are moving more quickly).
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I think the temperament and the mood have been a little on the immature side in this debate.
Quite; there's nothing less mature than your "la la la : I'm not listening" perspective, is there?
I do not think any experiments have been done to either prove or disprove the point that I have made.
And yet, they have.
I(t's just that, because you insist that you are right, you refuse to recognise those experiments- even the one you can do at home.
You only have to tap the side of the mug with a pencil, and listen.
You keep trying to pretend that sound is different.
Well the atoms in the mug can't know that. They respond to a push just the same if it is caused by a sound wave or a pencil.
They transfer the energy along at the same speed.
How could they do anything different?
This has already been pointed out but "la la la , you aren't listening" and it's not very mature
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I believe in my statement until proven otherwise. As the speed of sound has been analysed as it travels through different medians but the speed of movement has not been analysed nor has it been compared in any scientific way and the more I think about how it could be analysed the more complicated it becomes so good luck if anyone wishes to try.
Your belief is wrong. This has been analyzed, experiments have been done. If you had a 1000 ft steel rod and smacked one end with a ram, it would take 1/10 of a second before the other end would move, that is a fact your belief is irrelevant.
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A diamond can relay sound at over 100 miles per second a very small diamond will have
Have you got evidence that sound propagates through a diamond at several times the speed of sound or is this once more a faith based position?
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Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 09:32:54
I think the temperament and the mood have been a little on the immature side in this debate.
Quite; there's nothing less mature than your "la la la : I'm not listening" perspective, is there?
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 11:15:20
I do not think any experiments have been done to either prove or disprove the point that I have made.
And yet, they have.
I(t's just that, because you insist that you are right, you refuse to recognise those experiments- even the one you can do at home.
You only have to tap the side of the mug with a pencil, and listen.
You keep trying to pretend that sound is different.
Well the atoms in the mug can't know that. They respond to a push just the same if it is caused by a sound wave or a pencil.
They transfer the energy along at the same speed.
How could they do anything different?
This has already been pointed out but "la la la , you aren't listening" and it's not very mature
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Ok. I have surrendered to defeat I feel that all the information I have received from quite a few has changed my understanding of the principle actions of sound and movement through a solid. I'm not backing down as to just back out but I really do understand this principle now. Thank you all for your debate and getting me to see sense. I look forward to being challenged regarding how to measure the one way speed of light. I'm up for that debate.
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Ok. I have surrendered to defeat I feel that all the information I have received from quite a few has changed my understanding of the principle actions of sound and movement through a solid.
Good.
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Have you got evidence that sound propagates through a diamond at several times the speed of sound or is this once more a faith based position?
Yes, sound can travel through diamond at 7 miles per second 35x faster than through air so is that several I'm not sure what several really is in numbers.
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Yes, sound can travel through diamond at 7 miles per second
And do you understand that 7 is not over 100?
A diamond can relay sound at over 100 miles per second
And do you understand that even if it could travel at 100 miles per second, that's still about 1860 times slower than light?
And, while we are at it, do you understand that the speed of sound isn't normally dependent on the size of the object?
So this
Let's say we use a small diamond
makes no sense?
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And do you understand that even if it could travel at 100 miles per second, that's still about 1860 times slower than light?
And, while we are at it, do you understand that the speed of sound isn't normally dependent on the size of the object?
So this
Yes I do realise that now that even if the object is small it still has the same effects of compression to its ratio. And my apologies for the 100 miles per second a clumsy mistake on my part. And my original apology is genuine.
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And do you understand that even if it could travel at 100 miles per second, that's still about 1860 times slower than light?
Sound in a diamond is yes, something like 7.5 miles/sec, but there are materials that might get to over 100,000 mile/sec, over half light speed.
The figure given on the web approaches c/√3 for the interior of a neutron star. So if a meteor smacks into it on one side, it is felt disturbingly quickly on the other side.
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The figure given on the web is c/√3
√3 is bigger than one.
That's not the same as
Objects can move faster than light speed
I can get electrons moving faster than c/√3 without too much trouble.
That's easy. but faster than c is ... not so easy.
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The figure given on the web approaches c/√3 for the interior of a neutron star. So if a meteor smacks into it on one side, it is felt disturbingly quickly on the other side.
That star would be pact rather tight may be the density of a black hole is so tight that it can have the internal density with the transmission velocity of light or even greater.
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Both of you:
100,000 miles/sec is not faster than light. I made no claim of superluminal sound, but your posts seem to suggest that I did. c/√3 is not greater than c, but it seems to be some sort of theoretical limit to (local) sound transmission, although I have no idea how they derived that figure.