Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: talanum1 on 10/02/2022 10:50:50

Title: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 10/02/2022 10:50:50
My model predicts there should be a little Energy missing in pi-minus decay. Is this possible?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Origin on 10/02/2022 16:28:30
Is this possible?
It is probable that you do not know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 10/02/2022 16:56:18
My model predicts there should be a little Energy missing in pi-minus decay. Is this possible?

How would that not violate conservation of energy?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 10/02/2022 17:24:37
How would that not violate conservation of energy?

By there being predicted another particle (massless).
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/02/2022 18:41:25
My model predicts
Your model has yet to make a single accurate prediction, but has made many errors.
Why do you keep going on about it?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 10/02/2022 22:07:40
By there being predicted another particle (massless).

Okay, how much energy should be missing?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 12:14:23
Okay, how much energy should be missing?

Four space point's worth of. I don't know how much energy is in a space point.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 12:46:45
I don't know how much energy is in a space point.
The energy (or mass) of a non existent thing is undefined.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 13:26:33
The energy (or mass) of a non existent thing is undefined.

Spacetime does exist, then space points must exist. Otherwise time coupled with nothing gives you spacetime - a contradiction.

It is six space points worth of not four.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 14:46:26
Spacetime does exist,
Yes.
then space points must exist.
No
Otherwise time coupled with nothing gives you spacetime
Gibberish.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 15:37:41
Otherwise time coupled with nothing gives you spacetime
Gibberish.

Read: "Otherwise time coupled with space gives you spacetime...". Now replace "space" with "nothing" in the previous sentence. Still gibberish?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/02/2022 17:09:32
Space existing doesn't mean that space "points" must exist. If space turns out to be quantized, then that would suggest that there aren't dimensionless points anywhere.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Origin on 11/02/2022 17:58:49
Read: "Otherwise time coupled with space gives you spacetime...". Now replace "space" with "nothing" in the previous sentence. Still gibberish?
Yes, that is still gibberish.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 18:02:51
Space existing doesn't mean that space "points" must exist. If space turns out to be quantized, then that would suggest that there aren't dimensionless points anywhere.

I mean with "point" a quantum of space.

Yes, that is still gibberish.

You just don't want to accept the logical argument and conclusion.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Origin on 11/02/2022 18:12:10
You just don't want to accept the logical argument and conclusion.
"time coupled with nothing gives you spacetime..." is not a logical argument, it is a statement with no evidence.  Gibberish is a reasonable description of your statement.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 18:42:01
You just don't want to accept the logical argument
You haven't got close to presenting one.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Origin on 11/02/2022 19:00:52
Quote from: Kryptid
Okay, how much energy should be missing?

Four space point's worth of. I don't know how much energy is in a space point.

Holy crap, that's priceless... ;D
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/02/2022 20:18:03
You just don't want to accept the logical argument and conclusion.

So if it was determined that there wasn't missing energy in the Pi-minus decay, would that be a falsification of your model?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 12/02/2022 08:34:15
So if it was determined that there wasn't missing energy in the Pi-minus decay, would that be a falsification of your model?

Yes. It would mean structure is not conserved. It would be a sad state and I won't be able to wrap my head around it.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/02/2022 12:15:03
So if it was determined that there wasn't missing energy in the Pi-minus decay, would that be a falsification of your model?

Yes. It would mean structure is not conserved. It would be a sad state and I won't be able to wrap my head around it.

I have bad news for you.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 12/02/2022 14:45:15
You just don't want to accept the logical argument
You haven't got close to presenting one.

Here is the argument:

1 Spacetime exists                                                          Fact
2 Time exists                                                                   Fact
3 Space coupled to time exists and = Spacetime           Fact
4 Space is nothing                                                           Assumption
5 Nothing coupled to time exists and = Spacetime         3, 4
6 5 is a contradiction -> 4 is false.                                   5
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kartazion on 12/02/2022 14:57:22
Here is the argument:
...
4 Space is nothing                                                           Assumption
5 Nothing coupled to time exists and = Spacetime         3, 4
6 5 is a contradiction -> 4 is false.                                   5
Nothing is nothing and space is something. Indeed, you can determine the space to an area and is necessarily something. So yes you are right 4 is false because space is something.

And '5' Nothing coupled to time exists and = Spacetime . The answer is only time.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/02/2022 15:07:46
You just don't want to accept the logical argument
You haven't got close to presenting one.

Here is the argument:

1 Spacetime exists                                                          Fact
2 Time exists                                                                   Fact
3 Space coupled to time exists and = Spacetime           Fact
4 Space is nothing                                                           Assumption
5 Nothing coupled to time exists and = Spacetime         3, 4
6 5 is a contradiction -> 4 is false.                                   5
Did you notice how none of the lines in your of your "argument" even mentioned points?
Were you hoping that nobody else would notice?

Seriously, why do you post this trash?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: puppypower on 12/02/2022 16:23:13
My model predicts there should be a little Energy missing in pi-minus decay. Is this possible?

If there was an entropy increase, during the reaction, then energy would be absorbed by the  entropy increase. The second laws states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. This implies the energy that goes into the entropy increase, will not be net re-usable or else the second law would not be valid. This energy would be conserved, but not in a reusable way. It would appear to us as lost energy, for all practical purposes.

Entropy is a measurable variable. It is not an abstraction. It was originally noticed during the development of steam engines. When they did an energy balance, there was always lost energy that could not be accounted for based on known inputs and outputs. The term entropy was used to describe this conserved, by lost energy, due to the second law.

Entropy increase 2nd law, and lost energy is why there is no perpetual motion. The lost energy that goes into an entropy increase, cannot be retrieved without creating even more lost energy. This limits all efficiency to less that 100%. Our universe, which is governed by the second law, is bleeding energy, that is conserved, but not net reusable; lost energy. Our universe is not a perpetual motion machine as implied by physics models such as a cyclic universe. The entropy increase, driven by the second law is bleeding the universe of its free energy and creating a pool of conserved but lost energy, that is no longer part of the practical or useable energy balance of the material universe.

This lost but conserved energy can be understood as connected to the information associated with states of matter. Entropy was found to be a state variable, meaning any given state of matter has a fixed amount of entropy. Water at 25C and 1 Atm, for example, has a fixed amount of entropy per mole of water that is always the same no matter how you measure it. Interestingly, the interaction of the atoms of water, in the aqueous continuum, at those specific conditions is modeled with wave and probability functions. Although these models describe random processes, the sum of all these random things always adds up to a constant amount of entropy. A constant amount of lost energy; entropy, can sustain all this randomness and also make it all add up to a constant. There can be give and take, here and there due to random events, but the sum will always lead to a constant amount of entropy. Entropy and its lost energy allows order to lead the realm of chaos.   

Entropy based information/energy creates order in chaos which we call distinct states of matter. This is a type of dynamic information process that integrates, allowing persistence, so higher states can form from previous states, as entropy increases via the 2nd law. This information is not easily used as a practical energy source, since it exists somewhere between order and chaos. Most useable energy is based on order or chaos, but not both.

This pool of energy-information appears to be the basis for our quantum universe; both order and random. An atomic orbital has uncertainty, but always implies a fixed state. The lost energy helps to maintain this quantum state, so we can build upon it. If the atomic orbital was only due to random events, it would shift with time. It needs an ordering principle with teeth; herding dog that keeps the sheep moving in the same time and space line. This makes use of the lost energy.

To fully retrieve the lost energy would cause randomness to lead. The universe would fall apart right down to the smallest states of matter.  Luckily the pool of lost energy  is always increasing over time; 2nd law, allowing entropic control over previous states, while also evolving into higher states, such as life. The DNA is cool in that it has memories of its previous states of evolution. This helps it to grow from a platform of simple but persistent chemical states.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 12/02/2022 21:58:15
Does your model predict the same missing mass anomaly for pi plus mesons? If not, then it's very likely that scientists would have noticed a discrepancy between the decays and would have said something about it.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/02/2022 23:23:08
My model predicts there should be a little Energy missing in pi-minus decay. Is this possible?

If there was an entropy increase... yada yada yada
Entropy (like temperature) is only meaningful for an ensemble of particles and thus it does not apply to the discussion in this thread.
Please do not randomly stuff your misguided ideas into other threads.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 13/02/2022 11:20:10
Does your model predict the same missing mass anomaly for pi plus mesons?

Yes, it predicts the same missing mass anomaly.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kartazion on 13/02/2022 11:41:56
Yes, it predicts the same missing mass anomaly.
The pion pi is a meson.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kartazion on 13/02/2022 12:21:30
Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Particles/piondec.html
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 13/02/2022 13:59:08
The anti-neutrino presence is determined by the electron presence and missing energy. So what's needed is a method to measure the energy of the anti-neutrino.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kryptid on 13/02/2022 14:09:10
If any energy (and thus momentum) was missing, we'd probably know about it (much as missing momentum led to the discovery of the neutrino).
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 14/02/2022 15:49:05
If any energy (and thus momentum) was missing, we'd probably know about it

We won't know about it since any missing energy would just be ascribed to the anti-neutrino. I won't believe there is no missing energy until the energy of the anti-neutrino can be measured.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/02/2022 17:00:46
If any energy (and thus momentum) was missing, we'd probably know about it

We won't know about it since any missing energy would just be ascribed to the anti-neutrino. I won't believe there is no missing energy until the energy of the anti-neutrino can be measured.
You might as well say that you belie that the excess energy is carried off by unicorns and that you will believe in the unicorns until we prove that they don't exist.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 14/02/2022 19:20:22
This is for that member that laughs bout the energy of space points. See:


At time stamp 12:03.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/02/2022 19:29:27
This is for that member that laughs bout the energy of space points. See:
Did you notice that he didn't talk about space points?
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Kartazion on 14/02/2022 19:32:41
This is for that member that laughs bout the energy of space points. See:

...video...

At time stamp 12:03.

The partitioning of space is imaginary and can be represented by the graduation. The graduation is imaginary to measure the space whereas the point would be a mass in the space.

Not to be confused with vacuum energy.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: talanum1 on 19/02/2022 08:27:48
Space exists because it is what you get from slices of spacetime at instances in time. See:


at timestamp: 5:10.
Title: Re: Is there Missing Energy in Pi-minus Decay?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/02/2022 17:51:23
Space exists because it is what you get from slices of spacetime at instances in time. See:



at timestamp: 5:10.


Did you notice that he didn't talk about space points?