Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 14:00:43

Title: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 14:00:43
I see the proton-proton chain produces 3 positrons and no electrons. Shouldn't the sun run out of electrons, eventually, as a result?

The proton-proton chain actually consumes 2 electrons as well.

Actually it produces one positron per He4-He4 pair 84.92% of the time, 2 positrons 10^_5% of the time and 2 positrons 0.1% of the time.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 14:42:42
I see the proton-proton chain produces...
Look again.
Keep looking until you learn to accept that these apparent discrepancies are due to your lack of understanding, rather than any actual problems with science.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 15:29:08
I looked again and it is still the same. See picture of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Antineutrinos at "Solar".

Its electrons should run out: that is my understanding.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/02/2022 17:06:52
The number of electrons keeps in step with the number of protons. Whenever fusion results in a nucleus where one of the protons has been converted into a neutron, a positron is emitted that annihilates with an electron somewhere in the Sun. Since the number of protons never goes to zero, then neither does the number of electrons.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 17:50:33
The number of electrons keeps in step with the number of protons. Whenever fusion results in a nucleus where one of the protons has been converted into a neutron, a positron is emitted that annihilates with an electron somewhere in the Sun. Since the number of protons never goes to zero, then neither does the number of electrons.

Your logic is flawed: electrons don't go in step with protons and "protons tend to zero" is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 18:57:47
I see the proton-proton chain produces 3 positrons and no electrons.
I don't see that.
I see this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain#The_proton%E2%80%93proton_chain
which conserves charge.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: talanum1 on 11/02/2022 19:41:14
You can see there: for all the chains there is 3 positrons produced. That chain produces 1 positron. The overall process consumes 2 electrons.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 19:46:11
There's an electron "left over" that was in orbit round the proton that fused.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/02/2022 20:14:40
electrons don't go in step with protons

Conservation of electric charge suggests otherwise. If a proton disappears, something has to carry that positive charge. That something ends up being a positron. That positron can't just sit around inside the Sun: it will be attracted to a nearby electron and annihilate with it. The net result means that the loss of a proton also results in the loss of an electron.

If you think that electrons can be consumed without protons also being lost in the process, then please explain what happens to the negative charge that was on the electron. The total electric charge of the system cannot change. That would violate conservation of electric charge.
Title: Re: Why Doesn't the Sun Run out of Electrons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/02/2022 20:52:23
The Sun will, in a rather meaningless sense "run out of electrons" at the same time that it runs out of protons.
The fusion of H to D can be thought of as two stages :
the reverse of neutron decay
where the electron and proton which make up a hydrogen atom stick together become a neutron


and then the neutron is captured by a proton to form deuterium.
(Obviously that's not how it happens but the bookkeeping is close).

Charge is conserved throughout the process.