Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: ConCeptUs on 11/10/2022 04:33:12
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Considering recent advances in Kármán line technology, does the current state of the 2nd law of thermodynamics - specifically the second half - still hold true?
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I'm not familiar with this "Karman line technology" you speak of. Can you elaborate?
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regardless of the technology, the laws of physics still hold true.
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What is the second half of the second law? The laws of thermodynamics are likely the most secure of all the laws of physics.
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Entropy Always Increases.
Are you referring to Von Karman?
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If I have to explain what the Kármán Line is, the whole concept of current technology, the fact that science itself wouldn't exist if not for curiosity and challenging ALL the laws and principles of nature, and that I have a phd in pharmacology, an mba, and a i/ve read the law in 3 states; i must be in the wrong room. and that after 24 hrs only 4 replies? Please, is this a discussion room or a coemeterium? Next someone will say the most idiotic phrase ever uttered, "trust the science". Have a great day...and don't allow people who reap from your thoughts to be the same people who plant them.
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I cannot see any connection between thermodynamics and the karman line. You claim to have a phd in pharmacology, maybe then you can explain the purported mechanism of the drug oliceridine to me?
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Sorry i couldn't grasp your Question.
I was Aware of the Karman Line, but clueless of the Technology aspect of it.
I knew the 2nd part of the 2nd Law has to do with Entropy.
Just felt maybe you were referring to the dissipation of heat from within the earth's atmosphere into space.
I was thinking on the Gravity aspect of it, Nevermind.
Please feel to discuss the Topic further.
P.S. - I'm just a Dummy on the Forum & hence clearly misunderstood.
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and that I have a phd in pharmacology, an mba, and a i/ve read the law in 3 states
Wow, you're so awesome. It's weird that your so awesome and yet are so poor at communicating your idea. By the way what were the three states you were in when you read the law?
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By the way what were the three states you were in when you read the law?
High, very high and totally spaced out, presumably. Why else would he care about the Karman line? Ah, the joys of pharmacological research!
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If I have to explain what the Kármán Line is,
You have to explain what is relevant about it.
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to origin/ nc, va and ny and i/m not awesome, but dame maggie smith is.
to paul/ not sure where you are going, haven't worked with g-protein-coupled signalling pathways since pregabalin in the 80's but if your working on a agonist for pain receptors please keep going and dont let no stop you.
to zero/ please forgive me. i get fustrated when i get close to someting but cant quite reach it. you are thinking like me, but dont think about just gravity/think about how that impacts energy and how thrust works in near space.
btw/ i'm not a butthole, just sleepy.
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I know what the Karman line is, but I don't know what it has to do with the second law of thermodynamics not holding. Can you please explain?
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this is the best i/ve heard it explained.... quoted from eric hawthorn
'This is a trickier question than it may seem.
In quantum mechanics, there is no such thing as a persistently isolated system. Even a black hole radiates, due to quantum fluctuations across its event horizon (Hawking).
So in a precise analysis, we could say that the second law, which applies only to isolated systems, is inapplicable. It would be true of isolated systems if they existed, but they don’t.
However, physics these days talks about “effective” theories. These theories work within limited regimes, such as within an energy range. At the boundaries of the regime/range, that theory falls apart and no longer explains things. It’s fair to say I think that a lot of the most up to date physics consists only of these limited-applicability effective theories. I think we have to say that the second law of thermodynamics is also only such an effective theory.
This is a trickier question than it may seem.
In quantum mechanics, there is no such thing as a persistently isolated system. Even a black hole radiates, due to quantum fluctuations across its event horizon (Hawking).
So in a precise analysis, we could say that the second law, which applies only to isolated systems, is inapplicable. It would be true of isolated systems if they existed, but they don’t.
However, physics these days talks about “effective” theories. These theories work within limited regimes, such as within an energy range. At the boundaries of the regime/range, that theory falls apart and no longer explains things. It’s fair to say I think that a lot of the most up to date physics consists only of these limited-applicability effective theories. I think we have to say that the second law of thermodynamics is also only such an effective theory."
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Which is why we always state the conditions within which a law is valid.
Worth noting the difference between a theory (how we think something works) and a law (how we consistently observe it to work).
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ConCeptUS, no I am not working on pain medication development. I am just doubting your claim to have a phd in pharmacology as the forum often has various contributors claiming to have university accredited qualifications and yet they deliver absolute nonsense. I am still in doubt, though I could be wrong. By the way, pregabalin inactivates voltage dependent calcium channels and not g-coupled receptors.
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Nobody cares if I studied pharmacology or not.
But I can google oliceridine and find that it's a synthetic opioid and barely related to pregabalin.
I don't think that's a mistake anyone with a PhD in pharmacology would make...
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No need to ask for Forgiveness.
All is Well & Good.
👍
I can Understand your Frustration.
Please do get some Sleep.
If you Elaborate or further explain or describe your Question in details, then it will Help others to better Understand what you are trying to ask or say.
I'm not at a level of understanding Quantum Thermodynamics.
But I'm Sure there are Others here who can Help you out with it.
Just be Patient & be Nice.
😊
All the Best!
P.S. - Perhaps English is Not the first language of the OP.
Just like Mee!
So formulating a Question & then comprehending the Answers might seem to be very tough.
(I might be Wrong about this)
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Bored chemist, I mentioned oliceridine because it is claimed to differ from standard opioids. The claim is that the predominant effect is on the g-coupled receptors and less action on the βarrestin pathway which internalises the activated receptor and thus leads to tolerance developing. It is claimed to thus have less of the problems associated with standard opiate therapy. I believe that subsequent trials have not gone as well as hoped. I used this example to test pharmacologic knowledge.
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Bored chemist, I mentioned oliceridine because it is claimed to differ from standard opioids. The claim is that the predominant effect is on the g-coupled receptors and less action on the βarrestin pathway which internalises the activated receptor and thus leads to tolerance developing. It is claimed to thus have less of the problems associated with standard opiate therapy. I believe that subsequent trials have not gone as well as hoped. I used this example to test pharmacologic knowledge.
And I pointed out that his knowledge was less than you would expect from someone who knows how to use google.
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this is the best i/ve heard it explained.... quoted from eric hawthorn
'This is a trickier question than it may seem.
In quantum mechanics, there is no such thing as a persistently isolated system. Even a black hole radiates, due to quantum fluctuations across its event horizon (Hawking).
So in a precise analysis, we could say that the second law, which applies only to isolated systems, is inapplicable. It would be true of isolated systems if they existed, but they don’t.
However, physics these days talks about “effective” theories. These theories work within limited regimes, such as within an energy range. At the boundaries of the regime/range, that theory falls apart and no longer explains things. It’s fair to say I think that a lot of the most up to date physics consists only of these limited-applicability effective theories. I think we have to say that the second law of thermodynamics is also only such an effective theory.
This is a trickier question than it may seem.
In quantum mechanics, there is no such thing as a persistently isolated system. Even a black hole radiates, due to quantum fluctuations across its event horizon (Hawking).
So in a precise analysis, we could say that the second law, which applies only to isolated systems, is inapplicable. It would be true of isolated systems if they existed, but they don’t.
However, physics these days talks about “effective” theories. These theories work within limited regimes, such as within an energy range. At the boundaries of the regime/range, that theory falls apart and no longer explains things. It’s fair to say I think that a lot of the most up to date physics consists only of these limited-applicability effective theories. I think we have to say that the second law of thermodynamics is also only such an effective theory."
But what does that have to do with the Karman line and, more specifically, "Karman line technologies" (which I still don't know what you mean by that)?
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In quantum mechanics, there is no such thing as a persistently isolated system.
That's why the laws of thermodynamics are a useful thought experiment, which define a fundamental limit to which real systems can aspire, but never quite reach.
This is different from the "sound barrier", a practical limit that plane designers wished to overcome - apparently, aircraft stresses appeared to increase asymptotically as you approach the sound barrier.
- This barrier was eventually overcame by a piloted vehicle in 1947.
- But firearms manufacturers had defeated this "barrier" long before
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier
This is different from the Karmen Line, which is a rather arbitrary line, where properties slightly above it and not significantly different than just below it.
- It was first conquered by a German rocket in 1944
- On its return, it also went supersonic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW_18014
With our present level of knowledge, it is believed that the speed of light in a vacuum ("c") is a fundamental limit, in that the LHC (and prior particle accelerators) have tested that c is an asymptotic limit for subatomic particles.
Even a black hole radiates, due to quantum fluctuations across its event horizon (Hawking).
Similarly, it is believed that it is impossible for an intact object to return beyond the event horizon of a black hole.
- It's energy (and probably its information, too) is released in tiny increments over a time longer than the current age of the universe
- This spreads an initially compact, energetic object (eg an astronaut) into an extremely diffuse sphere of low-energy photons, demonstrating the operation of the laws of thermodynamics even with Black Holes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics