Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Jimbee on 26/03/2023 13:27:02
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I hope this is the right section of the boards for this.
Not that I really care either, but you know Christians going to lose all their support just over gays. They think homosexuality if a choice, it isn't. Rev. Fred Phelps (1929-2014) thought God hates f-gs, if he exists, he probably doesn't. Actually, the concept of homosexuality didn't even exist in ancient times.
If Christians accept gays and gay marriage, they may still be around in a couple hundred years. I agree with you, religion is probably nonsense. But you know you, it does give some people meaning in their life. It makes them moral, which isn't bad. And it gives them a firm moral compass, which I've always admired. And I have to tell you, some Christians I've noticed, do seem to be genuinely happy. Anyways, what people choose to believe personally is really up to them. So in that way, it's not anymore or less valid than atheism.
And if a Christian wants to argue for what I'm saying. The Sermon on the Mount says we should love even our enemies and even those who do evil. And you know, Jesus never really said anything about homosexuality. Of course the Biblical Jesus is probably much different than who the real Jesus was.
And there were a thousand Messiahs crucified a year in Palestine by the Romans (which is frightening, because there are 365 days in the year). Jesus just had a good press agent, Paul. Also, you realize, Messiah ("anointed one") referred to a Jew who would free the Jews from bondage.
Anyways, I don't know if religion will even be necessary in a couple hundred years. But who knows what the future holds. And plus you know, religion does fill such an important psychological need. And how could that be bad?
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Actually, the concept of homosexuality didn't even exist in ancient times.
I'm pretty sure it did.
How do you define "ancient".
It was well enough known for Leviticus to condemn it.
religion is probably nonsense. But you know you, it does give some people meaning in their life. It makes them moral, which isn't bad. And it gives them a firm moral compass,
Yes; it tells them that the moral thing to do is stone gay men to death.
It tells you that it's acceptable to give your daughter to the rapists to save yourself.
The daughters of the biblical patriarch Lot appear in chapter 19 of the Book of Genesis, in two connected stories. In the first, Lot offers his daughters to a Sodomite mob; in the second, his daughters have sex with Lot without his knowledge to bear him children.
Religion is the antithesis of morality.
It tells you to do what you are told, on pain of eternal damnation, rather than doing what is right.
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Actually, the concept of homosexuality didn't even exist in ancient times.
Really? The Greeks were all in favor of it.If Christians accept gays and gay marriage, they may still be around in a couple hundred years.
Really? Homosexual reproduction? And you know, Jesus never really said anything about homosexuality.
He didn't need to. As a practicing Jew he (and all his friends) would have been familiar with Leviticus 20:13, which among other things set the Jews apart from their Roman rulers.I don't know if religion will even be necessary in a couple hundred years.
It never was. But human parasites will always be among us, and religion is one of their more pernicious inventions.
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Actually, the concept of homosexuality didn't even exist in ancient times
Don't be silly.
If Christians accept gays and gay marriage, they may still be around in a couple hundred years. I agree with you, religion is probably nonsense.
Religions always evolve to remain relevant. The Christianity of today is way different than it was in the past.
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Religions always evolve to remain relevant.
as do all parasites.
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It Survived geocentric to heliocentric.
It will Survive opposite-sex to same-sex.
It's Necessary until All of Us learn to manage things, 0n 0ur 0wn.
(Roi Fainéant)
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I think not. The religion said geocentric, but the disgusting company that purveys it decided to change the product when the customers realised it was flawed. Careers and profits matter, the product doesn't. If the old religion isn't selling, invent a new one.
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Geocentrism was an Observable Fact, later proven to be Incorrect.
(Anytime better than Deluding folks into Believing the Planet rests upon the backs of four Elephants who stand upon a Giant Turtle!)
Changes are a common between the drug, the peddler & the addict...the Constant is Pleasure.
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Pleasure? Religion causes wars, poverty, anxiety (it's based on anxiety), overpopulation, starvation, repression of women, and pretty much every evil that stems from insisting that superstition trumps observation.
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One common factor between drug abuse and religion is a failure of critical thinking.
Why worship the one who put the serpent in the garden?
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But you know you, it does give some people meaning in their life. It makes them moral, which isn't bad. And it gives them a firm moral compass, which I've always admired.
Santa Claus story can make kids behave morally. But it's not wise to prevent them from mentally growing up to be adults.
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There is no meaning in life. There is purpose in what we do, but no ultimate reason for our existence. So what?
As for religion fulfilling a psychological need, so does heroin. But you don't have the need until you have been exposed to it.
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Christianity - Everything's a sin and all sins forgiven.
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....for a price, of course.
There are subtle variations in the Abrahamic faiths. Catholics have to be taught that they are guilty, Muslims are taught that everyone else is guilty, and since everyone else believes Jews are guilty we don't waste time inventing collective guilt.
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You will never get a bacon sandwich with that attitude Alan, or God fobid, the full English.
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Pleasure? Religion causes wars, poverty, anxiety (it's based on anxiety), overpopulation, starvation, repression of women, and pretty much every evil that stems from insisting that superstition trumps observation.
We aren't in Medieval Ages...
Wars nowadays are mostly Capitalism vs Communism.
Doesn't Religion preach Sharing?
(natural resources)
Poverty is an Economic Problem.
Ain't Religion against Greed?
Anxiety is Self Inflicted or due to Internal/External Causes.
Does Religion not provide Inner Peace?
Overpopulation is a Sociopolitical Issue.
Religion provides the Choice of Celibacy, unhelpful?
Starvation is a Logistical Distribution Failure.
Religion advocates providing Alms, bad thing?
Repression of Women is a Patriarchal Society drawback.
Religion includes Prayers offered to both, the Masculine as well as the Feminine.
Biased?
Helping to Stem the Tide of Ignorance is a Very Noble Deed.
As Ignorance seems to be the Root cause of all Evil indeed.
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One common factor between drug abuse and religion is a failure of critical thinking.
Why worship the one who put the serpent in the garden?
Critical Thinking isn't the Only way towards The Pursuit of Happyness or Pleasure.
Perhaps the One is Worthy of Praise to atleast have Created the Garden.
& should be Blamed for providing FreeWill!
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But you know you, it does give some people meaning in their life. It makes them moral, which isn't bad. And it gives them a firm moral compass, which I've always admired.
Santa Claus story can make kids behave morally. But it's not wise to prevent them from mentally growing up to be adults.
Santa does Not control Maturity.
Most kids grow up, a few Don't.
Santa provides Sweet Dreams & fond memories...Not Nightmares!
In Life...Growing Old is a Compulsion, while Growing Up is mostly Optional.
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Christianity - Everything's a sin and all sins forgiven.
Not Everything's a Sin.
Factually Inaccurate.
&
Not All Sins are Forgiven.
Perdition...Holy Ghost...Ring a Bell?
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Poverty is an Economic Problem.
Ain't Religion against Greed?
Some religious leaders are known to show greed and lavish lifestyle, but they somehow can convince their followers that it's justified by their religion.
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In Life...Growing Old is a Compulsion, while Growing Up is mostly Optional.
I expect that in not so distant future, growing old will be just numbers, and detached from degenerative processes or physical and mental dysfunctions.
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Wars nowadays are mostly Capitalism vs Communism.
As in Syria? Iran? Iraq? Afghanistan?
Wars are fought because politicians or religious leaders convince people to fight. Communism died in Russia several years ago, but Der Fuhrer Putin needs a war maintain his lifestyle and popularity, just like Thatcher/Galtieri and Bush-Blair/Hussein.
Politics is just as disgusting as religion.
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they somehow can convince their followers that it's justified by their religion.
The sole purpose of religion is to justify evil.Good deeds do not require justification.
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You will never get a bacon sandwich with that attitude Alan, or God fobid, the full English.
My point exactly. Guilty of breakfast, in the eyes of the gentiles.
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Ain't Religion against Greed?
Ask the Pope - the third largest landlord in the UK after the King and the Church of England.
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Religion provides the Choice of Celibacy, unhelpful?
...and the Sin of contraception. But buggering choirboys is OK if you are a celibate.
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Does Religion not provide Inner Peace?
Not to those who have to invent sins to confess, or get upset of they miss a church service, or worry about nonmedical circumcision....I could go on....
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Starvation is a Logistical Distribution Failure.
Or the consequence of mandatory overpopulation or belief in rain gods.
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Repression of Women is a Patriarchal Society drawback.
And in the absence of any logical basis, what determines that a society shall be patriarchal, apart from a Holy Book?
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You will never get a bacon sandwich with that attitude Alan, or God fobid, the full English.
My point exactly. Guilty of breakfast, in the eyes of the gentiles.
I thought it was your own. Lobster sir?
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Aaaagh! Guilty of dinner too!
So there are two kinds of religions, those that prevent you from doing harmless things, and those that encourage you to kill unbelievers.
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Perhaps the Crux of the issue is Institutionalisation of Religions.
People should be set Free to have an intimate one on one dialogue with their Creator, & middle men & divine agents should be barred from interrupting or meddling in such personal conversations.
If I've Sinned, it should be between Me & My GOD...nobody else's business!
None other should ideally dictate, what i eat, what i wear n how i live My Life!
I Do thou Wonder, Why are most Prominent Prophets(pbut) men.
Be it the Pope or the Dalai Lama...
Why His Holiness is always a Man?
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Good deeds do not require justification.
There must be a reason why those deeds are thought to be good, and distinguish them from other deeds.
If you can't find any, then your thought is likely being controlled by a more primitive mental processes, such as emotions, feelings, or instincts. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. Persons with good characters can do good deeds almost automatically/instinctively. There are many online videos showing good people unselfishly risking their own life to save someone else's lives in emergency situations, such as fire, explosion, flood, earthquake, etc.
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If I've Sinned, it should be between Me & My GOD...nobody else's business!
If that sin was murder, the victim's family, who actually exist, take precedence over your imaginary friend in terms of whose business it is.
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There must be a reason why those deeds are thought to be good, and distinguish them from other deeds.
Good deeds are those that make people happier.
There is a degree of altruism in every normal mammal and bird, and it has been observed in fish. Not entirely surprising as it confers evolutionary advantage on the species, and practically every animal has an alarm call that triggers an altruistic response in its fellows (my neighbor studies fish audio communication - but that's Cambridge for you!). It is most easily recognised in the most familiar species and probably has the widest range of expression in homo sapiens because we put ourselves in the widest range of difficult circumstances (no other mammal gets involved in religious wars or sets fire to its nest).
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If I've Sinned, it should be between Me & My GOD...nobody else's business!
If that sin was murder, the victim's family, who actually exist, take precedence over your imaginary friend in terms of whose business it is.
I think you have distinguished between sin (invented by perverts) and crime (determined by reasonable people). I'm not sure of the status of dietary laws: kosher and halal make sense as good practice for desert nomads, which have been subsumed into religious texts and turn up as trade regulations in some countries, but personal breach probably isn't considered sinful, whatever the popular press may say about bacon sarnies. But the status of coffee is taken very seriously in Salt Lake City - it isn't served in most boardrooms, but the unsaved can visit Starbucks.
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If I've Sinned, it should be between Me & My GOD...nobody else's business!
If that sin was murder, the victim's family, who actually exist, take precedence over your imaginary friend in terms of whose business it is.
I think you have distinguished between sin (invented by perverts) and crime (determined by reasonable people). I'm not sure of the status of dietary laws: kosher and halal make sense as good practice for desert nomads, which have been subsumed into religious texts and turn up as trade regulations in some countries, but personal breach probably isn't considered sinful, whatever the popular press may say about bacon sarnies. But the status of coffee is taken very seriously in Salt Lake City - it isn't served in most boardrooms, but the unsaved can visit Starbucks.
My point is that if someone confesses their sins to the priest, that shouldn't be "the end of it".
There are real people involved and they deserve "justice".
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No caffeinated beverages for mormons is quite true. They do however partake of "mormon tea", a drink prepared from the plant ephedra nevadensis: this plant is closely related to ephedra equisitina, the natural source of ephedrine. Some sources say e.nevadensis contains ephedrine and other sources say there is little or no ephedrine present.
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Good ol Sin City.
https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2064-mormons-run-las-vegas-5-realities-sin-citys-history.html
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My point is that if someone confesses their sins to the priest, that shouldn't be "the end of it".
There are real people involved and they deserve "justice".
It isn't the end of it. The priest may require you to atone for your sin by pretending to talk to a nonexistent being, or to commit an illicit act with the priest himself.
But there is a more important aspect to confession. It is a common constituent of criminal gang practice to acquire some shameful or potentially harmful secret about a member in order to ensure his continued loyalty to the gang - hence confession ensures continuing bondage to the scum who run religion.
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If I've Sinned, it should be between Me & My GOD...nobody else's business!
If that sin was murder, the victim's family, who actually exist, take precedence over your imaginary friend in terms of whose business it is.
Sin pertains to Divine Law.
Murder falls in the Realms of Judicial Law.
They seem Similar, but are Not the Same.
The former based on Fantasy, the latter in Reality!
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" Politics is just as disgusting as religion. "
Aren't they just devised Tools!
Religion for Absolute Order.
Politics for Controlled Chaos.
A semi-automatic AR-15 could be used to Defend one's Nation, or barge into a primary school n stop lil hearts from beating.
What then is Evil?
The Tool, or the Individual triggering it.
I can Imagine a World without Religion or Politics, but i still see Evil existing innit.
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Rational people use evil is an adjective, not a noun.
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Is Religion Just Death Anxiety?
The examples cited in this video are derived from a TEDx talk by Sheldon Solomon, one of the original developers of terror management theory.
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Rational people use evil is an adjective, not a noun.
Slightly more rational people recognise it as a concept, and thus as a noun.
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Do you really think that evil has a useful meaning if it isn't associated with a noun like "deed", "thought", or "person"? Can you even define it when used as as a noun? The problem with treating it as a noun is that you decouple it from human activity
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Anyways, I just wanted to say one more thing in conclusion. Religion is probably nonsense, and we all know that. But where I live, if a young man or woman comes out as gay, like in the African American community, or in the South, their family rejects them. And they lose all there emotional and financial support. Religions have to become more accepting of gay people. Because sometimes, you just have to work with what you're given.
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Can you even define it when used as as a noun?
Did you somehow think that would be difficult?
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Religions have to become more accepting of gay people. Because sometimes, you just have to work with what you're given.
Religions have become more humane.
And that's because the rest of us worked against we were given.
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Religions have become more humane.
Except where they haven't. I don't think the Islamic Caliphate is any less disgusting that the Inquisition or the Crusaders, and religious persecution in India and Myanmar is if anything more evident than under colonial rule.
Dawkins summed it up: the one thing all religions have in common is that they each teach you to despise all the others. And once you hav defined "us", by elimination you have defined "them" and you have an excuse for hatred and violence.
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Except where they haven't. I don't think the Islamic Caliphate is any less disgusting that the Inquisition or the Crusaders, and religious persecution in India and Myanmar is if anything more evident than under colonial rule.
Fair point.
That seems to be what happens when people work with religion, rather than against it.
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Then there are the christian anti-abortionists, and the organised criminals who parade under sectarian flags in Northern Ireland, and all the other civil wars being fought on religious lines....
I repeat my old mantra: Good deeds do not require justification. The purpose of religion is to justify actions that would otherwise be regarded as evil.
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Anyways, I hope I'm not taking this thread in a different direction. But I also I wanted to add. When an African American finds religion, it can make them more open-minded, too. And socially-conscious. A religious African American is less likely to support capital punishment, for example. And when white Southerners find religion? Let's not go there.
But in the North I think the white and black people tend to be more spiritual, not religious. I think there is an important distiction there.
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When an African American finds religion, it can make them more open-minded, too.
That's pushing the boundaries of our policy on racial slur.
The implication is that that ethnic group is somehow not open minded until they find religion.
Was that what you meant, or did you just not think?
It's also implausible anyway.
A person would need to be open minded enough to consider religion in order to "find" it.
So it's not possible that religion makes them open minded.
On the other hand, religion frequently makes people closed minded.
Have a look on any flat earther page to find plenty of evidence.
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When an African American finds religion, it can make them more open-minded, too.
That's pushing the boundaries of our policy on racial slur.
The implication is that that ethnic group is somehow not open minded until they find religion.
Was that what you meant, or did you just not think?
It's also implausible anyway.
A person would need to be open minded enough to consider religion in order to "find" it.
So it's not possible that religion makes them open minded.
On the other hand, religion frequently makes people closed minded.
Have a look on any flat earther page to find plenty of evidence.
Okay, I can't express myself as well as some people. And I certainly am not the type of person who would use a racial slur.
I will try to avoid the subject in general from now on. But since you brought it up, I have to ask you. Did I really use a racial slur? My post may have seemed a little indelicate, perhaps. Or perhaps you just misunderstood it. But read my posts carefully. I mean, "racial slur". That's rather strong of a discription anyways, don't you think? As I said, it was not my intent. I will try to be more careful in the future in any event. And apologize if I was misunderstood.
EDIT: And when I use terms like African American, I am only talking about cultural differences. I don't believe there are any racial differences.
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Good deeds do not require justification.
The mantra justifies feeling good while being too lazy to think throughout the consequences of the deeds.
There must be some reason to call them good in the first place, and distinguish them from the bad ones. Otherwise, everyone will do anything they like and call them good deeds. Inquisitors thought that they were doing good deeds. So did slave traders and Holocaust deniers.
The justification may only become obvious in a hindsight. Even AI models can improve their performance through self reflection.
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Inquisitors thought that they were doing good deeds.
And they thought that because they "justified" it via religion.
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There must be some reason to call them good in the first place, and distinguish them from the bad ones.
Good deeds make the recipient happier or healthier.
Even AI models can improve their performance through self reflection.
I have no doubt that holocaust deniers could "improve their performance" by reflection too. But a polished turd is still a turd.
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We need to bring God into the 21st century by doing a few things.
- An app on our smartphones where one can contact a priest before they plan to murder, steal or masturbate. This is so they can listen in, judge how big of a sin you're doing and take appropriate action.
-Bring divorce into the church by delivering your wife back to her father.
-Begin portraying God as African-American or Black British.
-Make him a champion of Brexti and la muro fronterizo Estados Unidos-Mexico.
-Have a Twitter account.
-Supporter of woke and cancel culture.
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Begin portraying God as African-American or Black British.
What do you mean "begin"? She was always black.
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An app on our smartphones where one can contact a priest before they plan to murder, steal or masturbate.
Do you realise that the way you have written it means it's the priest who plans to murder, steal or masturbate?
It's not the same as
"An app on our smartphones where one can contact a priest before one plans to murder, steal or masturbate."
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There is religion and spirituality centred on the conscience. It is obscured if it is too closely tied to nationalism or race or a law system. In NDEs people discover that Jesus is not big on law keeping but prefers live compassion.
Through creeds and catechism can come differences and through superstition surrounding magic, and different gods, races and financial differences and hardship, and some have believed themselves a better race. WW1 was from a misjudging and a terrorist triggered off a collision, for Serbia against Austria-Hungary. The Germans, French and British had so much in common, but there were dividing alliance lines. No hate there, political error, like bad architecture.
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Good deeds make the recipient happier or healthier.
Is this a good deed?
Report: Kim Jong Un fed uncle alive to 120 starved dogs
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/03/newser-kim-jong-un-uncle-execution/4303319/
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I have no doubt that holocaust deniers could "improve their performance" by reflection too. But a polished turd is still a turd.
What do you mean by improvement here?
Turd can be turned into compost.
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It's fairly obvious. If your mission is telling lies, you could find ways of telling more lies or ensuring that each lie reaches more people. Why else would politicians use Twitter, demand broadcast time, and employ coaches and speechwriters except to boost their KPIs?
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Is this a good deed?
Report: Kim Jong Un fed uncle alive to 120 starved dogs
Starving a dog is never a good deed.