Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: championoftruth on 22/06/2023 21:27:48
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As you may have heard the submersible Titan crew are no more and they must have recorded their thoughts and messages and what went wrong on their mobiles and so the question is would those mobiles survive with that information for recovery from the ocean?
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That's assuming that the sub remained intact or developed a slow leak and simply fell to the bottom. From what I hear, a sudden implosion seems more likely.
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With a catastrophic implosion most likely everything would be destroyed.
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That's assuming that the sub remained intact or developed a slow leak and simply fell to the bottom. From what I hear, a sudden implosion seems more likely.
mobiles are small and may survive an implosion ...especially the microchips...
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With the pressure down there salty water ingress is almost certain with subsequent mechanical and corrosion damage.
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With the pressure down there salty water ingress is almost certain with subsequent mechanical and corrosion damage.
no oxygen down there due to high pressure. no corrosion. data recovery could extract information.
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That's assuming that the sub remained intact or developed a slow leak and simply fell to the bottom. From what I hear, a sudden implosion seems more likely.
mobiles are small and may survive an implosion ...especially the microchips...
In a diesel engine, the piston suddenly compresses the air to about 20 atmospheres. The resulting temperature rise ignites the diesel fuel.
The pressure down near the Titanic is about 350 atmospheres.
If there was a catastrophic failure of the pressure hull, there will not be much left of any phone.
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no oxygen down there due to high pressure
What?
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It is now starting to come out that the Titanic was originally discovered because the military was searching the sea floor for some missing submarines (I am not sure if said submarines belonged to their navy, or another one...). Presumably, that would have been followed by an attempt to recover pieces of said submarine.
The military never likes to reveal its hand, but it may have equipment capable of retrieving pieces of equipment from the deep sea floor...
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mobiles are small and may survive an implosion ...especially the microchips...
But if the sub suddenly collapsed without warning (that's what we mean by catastrophic implosion) nobody would be giving a commentary on it. The last word on most cockpit voice recorders is "sh1t"* but that comes at the time the foreseeable impact becomes unavoidable.
*almost always in English - the result of mandatory training.
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It seems the sub collapsed and if that's the case there wouldn't have been time for anyone to record a "last goodbye".
But, if I was on a trip like that I'd have taken at least one video camera with me.
I guess there were video cameras running at the time of the disaster.
But it's important to recognise what would happen.
The pressure at that depth is about 350 tons per square metre.
An person has an area of the order of 1 square metre and would suddenly find themselves supporting the weight of a passenger train.
And we need to define "suddenly".
People say water is incompressible but actually it's just not very compressible.
So, if the hull failed, the water near it would expand to fill the gap.
That expansion would happen at about the speed of sound in water. Something like 1500 m/sec
So, very roughly, the weight of a passenger train, travelling at the speed of a fighter jet.
(Preceded by a brief flash where the air was heated to about 1300C by compression)
It's going to be tricky to work out what happened.
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I remain somewhat baffled by the time it took to locate the vessel. Everyone in the business knows where the Titanic is, and one would presume that the mother ship stayed on station during the dive, or at least knew the release point, so the target was somewhere on a curve between known points A and B, allowing for current drift during the descent. TV news coverage alleged lots of aerial searches over a huge area. Have I missed something?
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Have I missed something?
Yes.
Currents and the fact that, if they possibly could have, the crew would have surfaced.
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mobiles are small and may survive an implosion ...especially the microchips...
But if the sub suddenly collapsed without warning (that's what we mean by catastrophic implosion) nobody would be giving a commentary on it. The last word on most cockpit voice recorders is "sh1t"* but that comes at the time the foreseeable impact becomes unavoidable.
*almost always in English - the result of mandatory training.
Pressure = force/area. since a microchip is only about 3cm square hence less pressure on it and is solid state with no cavities there is a chance of data recovery.
its not clear when the implosion took place ...after a few days or right away?
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Pressure = force/area. since a microchip is only about 3cm square hence less pressure on it
No
Not less pressure, less force.
And 3 mm square is probably a better estimate.
is solid state with no cavities there is a chance of data recovery.
Never say "never"; I hope I'm wrong. But I'm betting against it.
There are, in fact, cavities in some forms of chip design. It makes room for the bonding wires and for thermal expansion etc.
The big problem is going to be finding it.
And- it's still like getting hit by a train at the speed of a jet.
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I very much doubt that even hermetically sealed military spec ics would survive such conditions and almost certainly not with mass produced consumer electronics.
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The pressure at that depth is about 350 tons per square metre.
I got the arithmetic wrong- sorry.
It's about 3500 tons per square metre.
So it's like being hit by a stack of 10 hypersonic trains.
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BC, many years ago I read an article about an alternative to explosives for certain seismic studies initiated in deep water. A hollow glass sphere was attached to weights and dropped into the sea resulting in implosion at depth. I can't remember any data but the energy release was stunning.
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I can't remember any data but the energy release was stunning.
Density of water times local acceleration due to gravity times the depth times volume of vessel.
Or pressure times volume.
For the lost sub, we are talking about a few cubic metres at a pressure of 330 atmospheres (33 MPa) or so.
Something like A few hundred MJ
The energy released by burning roughly a gallon of diesel.
The clever bit is the speed of release of the energy.
The power is phenomenal.
The implosion might have been as short as a millisecond.
That puts the power in the 100 GW range.
Roughly the same power as the UK electricity supply.
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Currents and the fact that, if they possibly could have, the crew would have surfaced.
The prevailing currents are pretty well known: presumably the mother ship dropped the sub is such a position that would minimise its run to the wreck area. So the first question remains: where was the mother ship? It was clearly in contact or expected to rendezvous with the sub at some time.
Had the crew surfaced from a survivable depth, one might presume that they had at least one registered personal or raft locator beacon between them (I never fly a small plane over water without a PLB and my copilot wears one too - one might assume that professional submariners would take at least as much search and rescue equipment as the average amateur ocean yachtsman).
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[ Invalid Attachment ] Depends if its anything like polystyrene, or human beings..
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It seems the sub collapsed and if that's the case there wouldn't have been time for anyone to record a "last goodbye".
But, if I was on a trip like that I'd have taken at least one video camera with me.
I guess there were video cameras running at the time of the disaster.
I noted that 500 other people died that day but were totally ignored by everyone being plebs they don't count.
'But they're human beings! Have some empathy!'
No. Billionaires are not like you and me. And that dehumanization is entirely done on purpose by themselves. That?s what they wanted. They have insulated themselves from regular human experiences. They don?t want to be on our level. If you and I died, it?d be like ants died for these people.
250K can pay off a lot of lunch debt for poor children. But no? They spend 250K, a quarter million dollars a pop, altogether over a million dollars to go on a risky ?expedition? in a carbon fiber tube to visit an underwater graveyard for the poor (The victims of Titanic were overwhelmingly poor people below deck.)
Do you know there was a refugee boat sunk about the same time when the Titan submersible went missing? Hundreds on board were missing and presumed dead. Every year thousands of indigenous women go missing. Dead refugees and missing minority women were so commonplace we barely had any media coverage.
But 5 rich dudes missing? OMG, 24/7 coverage everywhere. The US and Canadian coast guards went on extensive searches, all paid by tax dollars. Paid by us, poor people these billionaires don?t give a **** about.
Did the coast guard make an effort to save these refugees? Sure, the particular refugee boat sunk in the Mediterranean Sea, which isn?t part of the jurisdiction of the US or Canadian coast guard.
You, being the heartless jerk, want to split that hair. But there are thousands of people being trafficked in and out of the US. Other than persecuting the actual victims, did the US border patrol do anything the help the poor and the desperate?
As I mentioned above, and you conveniently ignored, thousands of Indigenous women go missing every year. Do you even hear about them in the media at all?
No. Because? what? Their lives aren?t nearly as valuable as some ?visionary? billionaire who made their money by exploiting other people?!
These people honor nothing, the least lives of regular folks. These people do not deserve to be ?honored.?
I hate this rhetoric about how tragic this is. It is the worst kind of pearl-clutching virtual signaling. It is the worst kind because it is easy. It is convenient. You make no effort and take no risk to make such a claim. I hope you enjoy your brown nosing performance, even though they?re more than happy to exploit you to death.
?They made their choices. They choose to waste their lives away. They need to learn to be accountable for their own actions.?
Tell me, Is this me talking about billionaires in submersibles, or conservatives talking about homeless people?
I?ve learned a lot about what happens to human beings when they?re in a confined space and implode under enormous pressure. Their death is instantaneous and painless. In fact, the implosion happens so fast our brain won?t be able to sense pain or even process the visual signals. After that, their body will be cooked and turned into basically minced fish food squeezed out of the collapsed wreckage.
Circle of life, you know.
There wouldn?t be any bodies to recover.
And if you eat Atlantic salmon fished out in the next 2 or 3 weeks, there might be slight changes we?d be eating the rich.
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I noted that 500 other people died that day but were totally ignored by everyone being plebs they don't count.
Worldwide, the number was closer to 400,000. But to quote Stalin, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."
"News" is what the media choose to report.
But the maritime convention is that the nearest vessels shall attend a vessel (including downed aircraft) in distress on the high seas, coastguards must attend reported incidents in their jurisdiction, and owners or insurers will pay for salvage (including the forensic value) of material recovered. So this effort was motivated by humanitarian convention, law, scientific interest and a hint of financial reward.
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The world has always been beset with multiple horrors and injustices, as long as man has been here and will unfortunately be so in the future. This is , however a science forum, not an ethics forum and the original question is whether a mobile device could survive- I believe this has been comprehensively ruled out.
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Agreed, but science without ethics is undesirable, and even theoretical physics costs money, so an occasional discussion of the justification of effort is surely tolerable?
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Yes, accepted.
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It seems the sub collapsed and if that's the case there wouldn't have been time for anyone to record a "last goodbye".
But, if I was on a trip like that I'd have taken at least one video camera with me.
I guess there were video cameras running at the time of the disaster.
I noted that 500 other people died that day but were totally ignored by everyone being plebs they don't count.
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Well it's a bit of drama that is put on 24 hour news to fill up the airtime in lieu of proper reporting. They where not confirmed dead, like the miners in Chile and the Thai football team in that cave, all were massively over reported.
This case is one where people take risks knowing it was dangerous like space travel but without any sort of view or gforce, if it were safe and easy where is the attraction? They where just another form of race driver.
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Anyone know Anything bout the whereabouts of B.C.?
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Hi.
Anyone know Anything bout the whereabouts of B.C.?
Sorry, no. It's been less than a week, it could be holiday.
Best Wishes.
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Anyone know Anything bout the whereabouts of B.C.?
Just returned home from a cruise ship with poor wifi.
Thanks for asking.
If five billionaires had gone off piste-skiing and fallen off a cliff, there wouldn't have been much news coverage.
If five researchers on a submarine had perished, I guess they would have got about the same coverage as these poor souls did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster
"interesting" deaths get reported.
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I noted that 500 other people died that day but were totally ignored by everyone being plebs they don't count.
False!
If They were Truly ignored by Everyone, U & i would have Never heard or known about em.
'But they're human beings! Have some empathy!'
Plz don't Ignore the plight of Other species by sounding like a Speciesist.
Have some Mercy!
No. Billionaires are not like you and me. And that dehumanization is entirely done on purpose by themselves. That?s what they wanted. They have insulated themselves from regular human experiences. They don?t want to be on our level. If you and I died, it?d be like ants died for these people.
Billionaires are also HuMaN(period)
250K can pay off a lot of lunch debt for poor children. But no? They spend 250K, a quarter million dollars a pop, altogether over a million dollars to go on a risky ?expedition? in a carbon fiber tube to visit an underwater graveyard for the poor (The victims of Titanic were overwhelmingly poor people below deck.)
It was Their Own Earned money.
They get to choose what to do with it.
A visit to a Graveyard in Common Sense of understanding is a way to Acknowledge & pay Respect to the dead.
It's Not a Picnic!
Do you know there was a refugee boat sunk about the same time when the Titan submersible went missing? Hundreds on board were missing and presumed dead. Every year thousands of indigenous women go missing. Dead refugees and missing minority women were so commonplace we barely had any media coverage.
Human Condition.
But 5 rich dudes missing? OMG, 24/7 coverage everywhere. The US and Canadian coast guards went on extensive searches, all paid by tax dollars. Paid by us, poor people these billionaires don?t give a **** about.
Us poor people(me included) pay less in 100years in Taxes, in comparison to what They paid in a Single year.
Besides, it ain't bout Economics!
Did the coast guard make an effort to save these refugees? Sure, the particular refugee boat sunk in the Mediterranean Sea, which isn?t part of the jurisdiction of the US or Canadian coast guard.
Saving lives is much Easier, compared to Preventing suicides.
Neither i nor U or Anybody else out here forced Them against their Will to get aboard an overcrowded dysfunctional shambled boat.
You, being the heartless jerk, want to split that hair. But there are thousands of people being trafficked in and out of the US. Other than persecuting the actual victims, did the US border patrol do anything the help the poor and the desperate?
Please Elaborate.
As I mentioned above, and you conveniently ignored, thousands of Indigenous women go missing every year. Do you even hear about them in the media at all?
It's in the news, articles, documentaries & even movies.
Do You know the number of NGOs & Law Enforcement Depts. who are on the look out & save Thousands Per Year?
No. Because? what? Their lives aren?t nearly as valuable as some ?visionary? billionaire who made their money by exploiting other people?!
Accusations!
They weren't pimps or drug lords, so plz chill.
These people honor nothing, the least lives of regular folks. These people do not deserve to be ?honored.?
You are entitled to have a Personal Opinion, no matter how Disrespectful it may be.
I hate this rhetoric about how tragic this is. It is the worst kind of pearl-clutching virtual signaling. It is the worst kind because it is easy. It is convenient. You make no effort and take no risk to make such a claim. I hope you enjoy your brown nosing performance, even though they?re more than happy to exploit you to death.
If Your Father or Son was on That sub which imploded, maybe then you'd Understand what Tragedy means.
(Hope U never do)
?They made their choices. They choose to waste their lives away. They need to learn to be accountable for their own actions.?
The Cat knows the price of Curiosity.
It's Worth every Penny!
Tell me, Is this me talking about billionaires in submersibles, or conservatives talking about homeless people?
It's You, talkin of Billionaires in Subs.
You created the Thread.
Did You Not?
I?ve learned a lot about what happens to human beings when they?re in a confined space and implode under enormous pressure. Their death is instantaneous and painless. In fact, the implosion happens so fast our brain won?t be able to sense pain or even process the visual signals. After that, their body will be cooked and turned into basically minced fish food squeezed out of the collapsed wreckage.
Instantaneously Painless death, is still, after all Death!
It's a sentence of life long Suffering & inescapable grave Pain for their Friends & Family.
Circle of life, you know.
i do.
There wouldn?t be any bodies to recover.
i know.
And if you eat Atlantic salmon fished out in the next 2 or 3 weeks, there might be slight changes we?d be eating the rich.
No Comments.
ps - i'd rather die having spoken in my manner...than to speak in yours, & live.
(Soc)