Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution => Topic started by: Exodus on 29/04/2004 10:48:33
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Ok here is an intersting one. Are birds born KNOWING the songs they sing OR do they have the ability to listen and learn them from other birds? [?]
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I think most birds are born knowing their songs, but there are some (Mockingbirds for one) that mimick other bird songs or other sounds. Birds raised in captivity without others of their speices will still sing their own song.
I once had a neighbor that liked to cut boards (I don't know what for) with a circular saw. He was terrible, always lugging the saw down and binding the blade etc. There was a mockingbird in the neighborhood that did a very good imitation of the tortured saw. The other day I heard one imitating an ambulance siren.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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I think birdies are born/hatched knowing a rudimentary bird song like 'give me food' etc and probably learn to sing more complex conversations as they grow....presumably as babies they have a limited vocabulary like we do.
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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I think it may to do with the structure of the vocal cords the bird is born with
We don't want the loonies taking over!
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well this is their inherited behaviour like a infant after birth start having milk.
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if i remember my lectures correctly i think its imprinting. there is a certain amount of intrinsic information and a certain amount that is learnt from the mother, and i think bird song was imprinted, at least to a certain extent. otherwise how would species be indentifiable from their song all over the world? you know what chinese whispers does to us, imagine it with bird song!
they must learn some songs though: we have a starling that does an uncanny impression of our telephone, but only when you're at the top of the garden and have to run to get it!
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well if a bird will still sing its own song even being raised with other birds I think that shows that their songs are already present as instinct don't you think? I guess each species is different; mockingbirds have the ability to learn new songs rather that staying with their own present set of songs as other birds ...
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I'm sure birdies have their own ' accent ' and 'voice ' which is specific to each type of bird....ie: a robin must sound different to a sparrow etc.......I'm positive that they must be born with a birdsong imprint....or a bird call and as they grow their songs are fine tuned and honed which they learn form mummy and/or daddy bird.
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come to think of it I'm sure i read somewhere just this week that something - pigeons, ducks, can't remember - have regional dialects, so that city birds sound slightly different to their country kinfolk! I'm getting images of pigeons with bowler hats and briefcases next to pigeons chewing bits of straw. people get paid to do this kind of research.
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wahoo! just noticed I've been given the distinction of being average!!
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quote:
Originally posted by fishytails
come to think of it I'm sure i read somewhere just this week that something - pigeons, ducks, can't remember - have regional dialects, so that city birds sound slightly different to their country kinfolk! I'm getting images of pigeons with bowler hats and briefcases next to pigeons chewing bits of straw. people get paid to do this kind of research.
Yo Lindsay,
I brought up an accent/dialect related topic a short while ago....here's the link http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=873 congrats on being nicely average [:)]
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cheers for that, i hadn't seen it. i think it was in a newspaper, or maybe nature online. really should work on improving my memory.
interesting that it appears to be the same for a lot of animals. although I got the impression that we don't have language imprinted in us in the same way as bird song seems to be. kids that have grown up without ever being spoken to (sad but very unfortunately true) never seem to grasp language properly, in the same way that the later we leave it the less likely we'll ever be fluent in a second language.
so does that make us evolutionarily inferior to pigeons?
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I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
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quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
tweet tweet! lol!
Am very impressed you managed to raise it though!!! did it fly away? what did you feed it? did you go digging for worms and put them in your mouth?
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Actually, I went to the feed store and got some feed for young chicks. I moistened it to a pasty consistency, and got a blob of it on a blunt stick, and stuck the mess down their throats every time they cheeped. I was working the night shift then. The little critters slept all night, but kept me up all day long feeding them. Kept a little female and let the others go. I had to keep her. She fell in love with my boyfriend and flirted with him every time he came over. Just couldn't bear to separate the two of them.
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that is what i already said that it is an inherited character.
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quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
Nancy, do you offer the same servivce to us grups ?
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
Nancy, do you offer the same servivce to us grups ?
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you really want to be force fed a pasty muck with a stick and then flirt with Nancy's boyfriend when he comes around?!?!?![;)] lol!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Exodus
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
Nancy, do you offer the same servivce to us grups ?
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world-of-smilies.de%2Fhtml%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FSchilder2%2Finsanes.gif&hash=4f18432872d0188852a6f4a3170ec758)
you really want to be force fed a pasty muck with a stick and then flirt with Nancy's boyfriend when he comes around?!?!?![;)] lol!!!
....well no, I suppose not !!..but the question is still valid...however, without getting too close to the edge I'd happily stick some special paste down...NO...I'll stop it there !!!!
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Ooooooohhhh, you are sooooo bad. Must be up late again, huh? So translate for the American here -- what is a grup?
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quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
Ooooooohhhh, you are sooooo bad. Must be up late again, huh? So translate for the American here -- what is a grup?
GRUPS = GRown UPs .......[:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
quote:
Originally posted by Exodus
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
quote:
Originally posted by bezoar
I raised some sparrows once that fell from their nest. They were just blobs of pink skin with their eyes shut when I got them. But when they got old enough, they sang just like the other birds outside that were in the nests. By then, I think I had imprinted, because I knew the sound of a hungry baby sparrow.
Nancy, do you offer the same servivce to us grups ?
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world-of-smilies.de%2Fhtml%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FSchilder2%2Finsanes.gif&hash=4f18432872d0188852a6f4a3170ec758)
you really want to be force fed a pasty muck with a stick and then flirt with Nancy's boyfriend when he comes around?!?!?![;)] lol!!!
....well no, I suppose not !!..but the question is still valid...however, without getting too close to the edge I'd happily stick some special paste down...NO...I'll stop it there !!!!
'Men are the same as women...just inside out !' (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world-of-smilies.de%2Fhtml%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FSchilder2%2Finsanes.gif&hash=4f18432872d0188852a6f4a3170ec758)
That really might be a good idea lol! we may get kids on here. lol
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I like that -- grups. Think I'll start using it. Who knows? I might even learn to speak English.
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...actually, it's just a term that I use...it's not quintessentially English and I have to explain it to most people...but I'm glad you like it.
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On a related theme to birds knowing their songs when they are born, baby spiders (isolated at birth) can spin a perfect web without ever having seen one. I would love to know the genetic basis behind that.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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What about talking cockatoos? Can they mimic other birds' song?
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We ran a nice piece recently on birdsong and the inventor of an app that decodes the identity of birds, and people doing impressions of birds!
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/interviews/decoding-bird-song
(Feel free to "tweet" about this...) ;)
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There used to be a mynah in London Zoo who terrified visitors by saying, with a very cultured Anglo-Indian accent, "I'm not really a bird, you know". Full marks for his long-forgotten trainer.
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What was the bird called, Alan? Do any recordings exist?
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It's difficult for a bird to change the 'tone' of its voice because that is mostly due to anatomy. Birds have an air-filled 'syrinx' located where the trachea branches into two bronchi, which is responsible for the unique voice that each species has. But there is definitely also a learnt component to rhythm and control of the sound in a bird's song.
If anyone has table manners that are as appalling as mine, the next time you cook up poultry, complete with a neck, you should dissect out the trachea, locate the syrinx, cut it out, and then blow on it. This works particularly well for ducks, which are known for their amazing syrinxes. You'll sound exactly like the duck (...used to).