Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => That CAN'T be true! => Topic started by: Matthew Hasty on 12/06/2008 08:07:54

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Matthew Hasty on 12/06/2008 08:07:54
Matthew Hasty  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hey Chris and Crew

My name is Matthew Hasty and I'm an artist living in Memphis Tennessee I'll try and be brief... but first the obligatory praise:

I seriously LOVE your podcast!!! (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/)  

I just wondered if you could look into something... ( If you have already... I'll get to it soon)

I have recently found out about a product that is purported to rid the body of  quite a list of diseases.... one claim has been that is has cured over 75,000 people in Africa of Malaria...

It supposedly works on many viruses, bacteria, moulds and a host of parasites. It's called  MMS  (Miracle Mineral Suppliment) NaC1O2 or sodium chlorite ....Perhaps you could clear up what it does do and disseminate some of the  information about it...

Thanks for your show (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/) and keep up all of the brilliant work....

What do you think?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/06/2008 19:23:52
It doesn't work.
Pity.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: NobodySavedMe on 13/06/2008 22:29:57
It doesn't work.
Pity.

Actually it does work.I have a list.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: NobodySavedMe on 13/06/2008 22:33:46
Matthew Hasty  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hey Chris and Crew

My name is Matthew Hasty and I'm an artist living in Memphis Tennessee I'll try and be brief... but first the obligatory praise:

I seriously LOVE your podcast!!! (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/)   

I just wondered if you could look into something... ( If you have already... I'll get to it soon)

I have recently found out about a product that is purported to rid the body of  quite a list of diseases.... one claim has been that is has cured over 75,000 people in Africa of Malaria...

It supposedly works on many viruses, bacteria, moulds and a host of parasites. It's called  MMS  (Miracle Mineral Suppliment) CLO2 or sodium chlorite ....Perhaps you could clear up what it does do and disseminate some of the  information about it...

Thanks for your show (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/) and keep up all of the brilliant work....

What do you think?


I urge you to bookmark and read this.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm

Loads of scientific papers listed with references.

[PERSONAL REFERENCE REMOVED - PLEASE DESIST FROM ATTACKING OTHER FORUM MEMBERS - MOD, CS]

All the information about MMS is here from scientific sources over the last 100 years.

It is a long page but it describes in detail why MMS works.With scientific references.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/06/2008 12:49:20
Yes, you have a list. You are also the person who thinks you can cook popcorn with a mobile phone.

If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get.
No doubt this will get some trash response about the big pharmaceuticals companies. The claim that big pharma is stopping people using a wonder drug because it's not sold by one of the pharma companies doesn't make sense. there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently.
As for the ( now removed) reference to me
"Disregard Bored Chemist.All his posts are on the side of the Establishment and corporate interests.He claims to be a union leader.I shudder to think what kind.The one that sells out?"

I'm a safety rep and sometimes ADC rep for these people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_(trade_union)
And I never claimed to be a leader- but NobodySavedMe and facts have never seemed to me to get on very well.
He also seems not to realise that the reason I post under an assumed name is that I don't think my "establishment" employers would like some of the stuff I post.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Matthew Hasty on 14/06/2008 20:50:30
Okay....  Well here is my personal experience with the stuff... I have a friend that had told me he had some results with some varying ailments... so I got some of it (it's cheap... what could it hurt right?) It takes a minor amount of preparation (if you can test the Ph level in a pool you can prepare it....  So I got it and did a few drops....  I won't go into the prep however when you make it... it smells as though it will have an affect of some kind as it has sort of an acidic chlorine smell as the name sodium chlorite would suggest.  So I took it for a few days and having no real ailments of any kind, didn't notice much (no surprise there) except for the lack of taste in my mouth (perhaps a cure for halitosis...)  I decided to discontinue use, it hadn't made me sick so I decided to wait until I had something to experiment on.... Quite some time passed before I got sick with anything My wife and son had had colds perhaps the flu... I wasn't getting anything ( I didn't attribute this to the MMS)  ... Finally I got a cold/ or flu and tried the MMS stuff once, perhaps twice again.. It seemed as if It became worse relatively soon.. I felt horrible the next day but that was it perhaps two days of really feeling poorly and a few days with the residual cough... I did not have the effect of instant anything as it purports to cure malaria within hours. After this I decided to go and ask the proper authorities and write to the Naked Scientists who seemed as though they would take a look into almost anything to separate the legitimate from the bogus  for the common good. I hope that they are able to put this to rest... and perhaps it will be yet another miracle that will go the way of many other cure-all-miracles and quackery.... one of my personal favorites (and the name of my band if I ever get that together) "The Radio Disease Killer"....

Hey even placebos work sometimes....
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Matthew Hasty on 14/06/2008 21:04:51
The Naked Scientists could actually do a whole show on Dr. Albert Abrams and the Electronic Reactions of Abrams or E.R.A.  (for the initiated )
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: chris on 14/06/2008 21:33:53
Hi Matthew

welcome to the forum - great to have you join us from the podcast!

To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap. You might as well go and drink swimming pool water. I'd recommend saving your money and spending it on a packet of paracetamol for when you next feel ill, and some fresh fruit and vegetables in your diet every day.

That's guaranteed to have a bigger impact on your health than taking what amounts to something poisonous.

Chris
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Matthew Hasty on 14/06/2008 23:33:44
Hey Chris Thanks for the welcome! 

I agree with you about the diet wholeheartedly.... It is just the idea that what if there are some benefits to be had... for example if I understand correctly the stuff is in our public drinking water.. (at least it was the last time the public was allowed to tour their local water works ---- Sept 10 2001)

 I don't read a ton of medical journals so I cant say for sure but the article by Thomas Lee Hesselink, MD

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm

has some compelling info... at least for a layman like me. I am going to start at the top of his reference list and go from there...

 I would say some research in the matter wouldn't hurt...  I mean Doctors still blast the patients with radiation and chemicals all day & everyday over here....

 I'd  take a couple of drops of poison a day for a penny a pop if it worked just as well as some of the alternatives...

All that being said....   there were 3500 people administering ( no # ) patients in the 1920's with a machine designed to electronically discover what diseases you were suffering with... and magnetically cure you....  http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/abrams/abrams.htm

If the MMS stuff is "crap" could be good material to show that people are always going to hope like that for some magic bullet to cure us all... and maybe that is the "bigger" story...


Again Thank You for your Podcast and your show... I am still astounded by the connectivity of this medium.... in the chaos of the hive there is an order!











Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2008 11:40:09
OK, lets have a look at that web page. The first thing it says is
"Nothing in this article is intended as medical advice.
No claims, promises nor guarantees are made"
Interesting.

Then "This procedure rapidly eliminates malaria and other infectious agents in only one dose."
That's a claim, so one of the first things it says is a lie. So far, I'mnot impressed.

Thenit says "Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) is highly reactive with thiols, polyamines, purines, certain amino acids and iron, all of which are necessary for the growth and survival of pathogenic microbes."
Which is true enough. Of course, since all of those things are needed to grow microbes and there are microbes in the gut we have a problem. Any ClO2 in the gut would instantly react with one or more of those compounds- it would never get any further ( it would be destroyed in the mouth if it were there long enough).
Incidentally it also reacts with hydrochloric acid which is also present in the stomach.

Malaria is a relapsing disease- it comes and goes. If you have malaria and take snake oil it will sometimes look as if it has worked. Together with mankind's abillity to believe in what they want to happen, you can see how the section on "discovery" makes sense.

Then there are about 40 references that tell you that malaria is bad and what ClO2 is. Nice comprehesive background but of no real importance.
Looks impressive, buut doesn't actually tell you much, I mean what does "The Three-Electron Bond in Chlorine Dioxide. " have to do with malaria?.

Then there's a section headed "OXIDANTS AS PHYSIOLOGIC AGENTS"
It includes ther rather telling observation that "Some work has been done using dilute solutions of sodium chlorite internally to treat fungal infections, chronic fatigue, and cancer; however, little has been published in that regard". Well, positive results tend to get published so what does that say to you?
Then ther is another batch of only vaguely related references- things like "The Use Of Ozone In Medicine, " and "Decreased level of 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and
alteration of structural integrity in erythrocytes
infected with Plasmodium falciparum in vitro."
I'd love to see why someone thinks the first of those might be relevent to the use of chlorite- it's about an entirely different chemical.
At least the second is about themalaria parasite (Plasmodium falciparum ) but it's a report of someone having measured the effect (in a test tube ( in vitro)) on the levels some rather obscure chemical in red blood cells. That's worthy enough in its way, but it has nothing to do with using chlorite to treat malaria.

There are a few references like this one "Interferon-gamma activates the oxidative killing
of Candida albicans by human granulocytes. " that look like they might be relevent bu,t oxidative killing of freign cells by the body is one of its major defense mechanisms. It uses peroxy compounds- not ClO2.


Then there's a section headed "OXIDES OF CHLORINE AS DISINFECTANTS"
And a whole lot of references saying that chlorine and its oxides are useful disinfectants. There are two things to note here. Firstly none of these refers to malaria or plasmodium- which is a bit of a shame if you are trying to say this stuff killsthem. Secondly it's not news to anyone that strong oxidants kill bacteria etc. When Domestos advertised itself as "Kills all known germs. Dead." they were perfectly correct. (They didn't say that the same claim could be made by any bleach based product- but who can blame them).
Unfortunately you can't drink bleach and expect it to kill harmful bacteria. It's too reactive- all you will do is damage your stomach because the cells of the stomach are just as susceptible to bleach poisoning as the bacteria are.
The same is true of ClO2.

Then there's a section called "MALARIA IS OXIDANT SENSITIVE"
Which is true- so what? too high an oxygen concentration kills people.
Then there's lots of references, but none of them involves ClO2. There's a reason for that. The malaria parasite lives (at least some of the time) inside blood cells. If you add bleach or ClO2 you destroy the cells- so the malaria parasite is now "homeless".Its not a sensible test.

Trawling on there's a section about "TARGETING THIOLS"
Unfortunately,
1
that's what arsenic does- so it's not really a good start and
2
ClO2 dosn't really do it- it's a strong oxidant and atakcs pretty much the first thing it meets.

Again there's a whole lot of references that don't say much.


Then we have "HEME IS AN OXIDANT SENSITIZER"
Now that looks promising. The malaria parasite hangs out in red blood cells and there's a lot of heam in them. If the heam makes the oxidants more effective then it migh likk the bugs.
2 problems- if it makes the stuff more toxic in blood cells them most of what it kills will be blood cells. Not really what you want and also, remember way back at the begining I said that the stuff would be destroyed in the mouth and stomach. Well, just how much is going to get as far as the blood? How about none?
Then there's the usual run of references to make it look scientific.


We then come to "OVERCOMING ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE WITH OXIDATION"
Well, if this stuff kills malaria on its own we don't need to use the antibiotics. It seems they just admitted their claim was false.
Then they list a few pages more references to make it look good.


Then we come to the real killer (literally)
I will quote this in full
"SOME INCOMPATIBILITIES
Acidified sodium chlorite could provide a powerful new opportunity to improve or to restore sensitivity to quinolines by virtue of its oxidative power. However, quinolines contain secondary or tertiary amino groups which react with chlorine dioxide in such a way that both could destroy each other. Some possible strategies to resolve this incompatibility are suggested below.
Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action.
Patients already preloaded with a quinoline could stop this, wait a suitable period of time for this to wash out, then administer the acidified sodium chlorite.
The quinoline could remain in use and while the less active sodium chlorite is administered without acid. This should retain plenty of oxidant effectiveness without destroying any quinoline or wasting too much oxidant.
Switch from a quinoline to an endoperoxide (such as artemisinin) or to a quinone (such as atovaquone) before using acidified sodium chlorite, as these may be less sensitive toward destruction by chlorine dioxide.
Similar problems apply to methylene blue and many other drugs if they have an unoxidized sulfur atom, a phenol group, a secondary amine or a tertiary amine. Such are also very reactive with the chlorine dioxide component. [58a] "


Ok what that says is that the ClO2 reacts with some of the drugs used in (legitimate) treatment of malaria.
What they sugest doing about that is reckless if not criminal.
"Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action. "

They sugest using only this rubbish on its own and, if needs be, withdrawing treatment with an effective drug.

Yes, that's really what it measn
they are saying that you should stop taking drugs thatare known to work to treat malaria and take their impossible remedy instead.

Does anyone care what the particular problems with the rest of their page are?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 23/01/2009 20:09:29
Came across this post and felt obliged that I just had to say something when i read:

"No doubt this will get some trash response about the big pharmaceuticals companies." Yep right there. And:

"The claim that big pharma is stopping people using a wonder drug because it's not sold by one of the pharma companies doesn't make sense".

Doesn't make sense? That is somewhat of a naďve statement and please don't be offended but you need to put the chemistry books down and catch up with some economics and history. Unfortunately health care has become a business. Every sixth dollar spent in the U.S is on healthcare. Three out of every four drugs used in the world are produced by the U.K(2nd biggest export) and U.S. The pharmaceutical companies are awash with money and trust me they will not attract major investment unless they are satisfied things like this never reach the mainstream and are discredited etc, etc. Discrediting non-allopathic medicine has been part of pharmacuetical business model since the 1930's and they have suceeded in this as the misinformed public knows not of viable alternatives what they do hear about they beleive is quackery. As well as financial there are many geopolitical reasons for supression of cheap treatments like over-population and sustainabilty to consider - in other words some peoples viewpoint is why keep alive some useless-eaters in the third world who can do nothing but produce more useless-eaters.

MMS, Vitamin C and Ozone therapy have the same things in common:

1) They are extremely effective(1,2).
2) They are extremely cheap.
2) They cannot be patented.
3) They cannot make synthetic versions to be patented.
4) They threaten a large segment of allopathic medicines revenue.
5) Proponents have been murdered, jailed and otherwised harrassed. Even Linus Pauling was attacked in peer reviewed journals for his stance on Vitamin C(which he later received apologies for in the same journals).

For cancer Vitamin C and ozone therapy represent the finest most powerful treatments available. For infectious diseases they all excel with MMS taking the lead. I do not know MMS's effect on cancer I expect being similar to ozone it would also be good. Ronald Reagan and Rupert Murdoch both cured their cancer with ozone therapy.

To illustate Big Pharma corruption during 1965 Dr. Herbert Ley, FDA Commissioner testisfied during senate hearings that the FDA "protects" the big drug companies and are subsequently rewarded, and using the government's police powers they attack those who threaten the big drug companies. "People think what the FDA is protecting them. It isn't. What the FDA is doing and what the public thinks it's doing are as different as night and day. "First it is providing a means whereby key individuals on its payroll are able to obtain both power and wealth through granting special favors to certain politically influential groups that are subject to its regulation. This activity is similar to the 'protection racket' of organized crime: for a price, one can induce FDA administrators to provide 'protection' from the FDA itself." Secondly, as a result of this political favoritism, the FDA has become a primary factor in that formula whereby cartel oriented companies in the food and drug industry are able to use the police powers of government to
harass or destroy their free market competitors. "And thirdly, the FDA occasionally does some genuine public good with whatever energies it has left over after serving the vested political and commercial interest of its first two activities."

I don't mean to have a dig at you, I'm just trying to paint a picture of how the pharmaceutical world operates.

1) http://www.understandingozone.com/docs/Scientific_References_Ozone_Therapy.pdf
2) US Patent 6086922 - Use of a chemically-stabilized chlorite matrix for the parenteral treatment of HIV infections
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6086922.html
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/01/2009 20:04:35
If you are going to resurect a thread please make sure you have read it properly.
You say "Doesn't make sense? That is somewhat of a naďve statement and please don't be offended but you need to put the chemistry books down and catch up with some economics and history. Unfortunately health care has become a business. Every sixth dollar spent in the U.S is on healthcare. Three out of every four drugs used in the world are produced by the U.K(2nd biggest export) and U.S. "
True, but of no relevance.
Didn't you read the bit where I wrote "there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently."?

The number of dollars spent in the US or UK has nothing to do with the decisions made by some malaria-ravaged developing country.
The FDA has nothing to do with it.
More importantly, with my head stuck in a chemistry book, I can recognise a snake oil salesman when I see one. That's why I pointed out just how pathetic their claims were.

Oh BTW, having told us all how the FDA works (though we already knew, and it wasn't important anyway) perhaps you need to find out how the patent office works. They don't actually check if a new idea works before issuing a patent- so the fact that someone has patented the idea of using this stuff to kill HIV proves absolutely nothing.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 24/01/2009 23:49:17
Yes I did read your post in it's entirety - "there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently."

You say money has no relavance to a third world country not being influenced by big pharma when ravaged by a modern day plague, I beg to differ. As a recent example in South Africa Matthias Rath(who trained under Pauling) was conducting a well constructed study using vit c and green tea extract etc etc to treat HIV now this study was halted by the SA government half way through because the Treatment Action Campaign(TAC) who BTW receive funding from you guessed it big pharma were kicking up such a stink over it saying it was unethical. How anybody could of called this unethical is beyond me as the results could have been used by those taking and not taking meds. BTW Matthias Rath posted the results of the incompleted study showing major improvment in all patients.

Malawi IS using MMS 'for any purpose' after successful clinical trials with malaria and hopefully this will spread across Africa if Malawi officials don't try and keep it secret and make money out of it themselves. If you want references contact the Malawi ministry of health.

And yes I know how the patent system works but if you actually look at the data from the patent is shows obvious efficacy.

So before you write blanket statements like "It doesn't work. Pity" just remember there are actually sick desperate people trawling the web for solutions to diseases and for anybody on a scientific forum to critisise something without investigating it may end up affecting someones life.

"It doesn't work. Pity" = Condemnation without investigation.

If your interested a good primer on ozone(hence MMS as they work in the same way) is 'Ozone'-a new medical drug by Velio Bocci, Professor Emeritus of Sienna University.

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/01/2009 11:21:04
"How anybody could of called this unethical is beyond me "
Because that study deprived people of access to treatments that were know to work and foisted them off with snake oil.

"If you want references contact the Malawi ministry of health. "
No, you have it the wrong way round. You are making the claim so you have to supply the evidence.


"So before you write blanket statements like "It doesn't work. Pity" just remember there are actually sick desperate people trawling the web for solutions to diseases and for anybody on a scientific forum to critisise something without investigating it may end up affecting someones life."

I know there are lots of desperate people out there.
Sadly there are snake oil salesmen who are willing to take advantage of them.
I believe that it falls to scientific web sites like this to try to put their "evidence" into context.

""It doesn't work. Pity" = Condemnation without investigation."
OK, I didn't post the evidence of investigation at that time, but I subsequently did. I went through their claims and destroyed them one at a time. That took some investigation.
Pity you didn't realise that.

"If your interested a good primer on ozone(hence MMS as they work in the same way)"
Got any proof of that? It's not easy to see why they would.

I just Googles malawi malaria and chlorite. One of the sites I found was this.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread319883/pg1

Those who have been on this site for a while will remember esecallum.
Not a good start in terms of credibility I'm afraid.



Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 25/01/2009 14:17:08
Please don't talk about credibility when you are condemning without investigating yet again.

"Because that study deprived people of access to treatments that were know to work and foisted them off with snake oil."

Snake oil? Vitamin C was one of the main treatments of this program its power to inhibit reverse transcriptase by the magnitude of greater than 99% and act as a cell fusion inhibitor by taking the equivalent of 10-20 grams daily was proved by Linus Pauling in his 1990 study titled:

Suppression of human immunodeficiency virus replication by
ascorbate in chronically and acutely infected cells.

Green tea(white tea is even better BTW) catechins also act as an HIV fusion inhibitor. Williamson MP et al. Epigallocatechin gallate, the main polyphenol in green tea, binds to the T-cell receptor, CD4: potential for HIV-1 therapy. J Allergy Clin Immunol 118: 1369-74, 2006.

There were also other compounds used so once again I fail to see how this was in any way unethical. It could of promoted cheap natural effective treatments to most of Africa the majority of which does not recieve anti-virals(of debatable use anyway). You can find details of the study here http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/nat_vit/index.html

This study had a solid scientific basis and publication of this important information, essential for millions of patients, is currently being challenged by organizations dedicated to the promotion of ARV drugs. For Matthias Rath to be labelled a charlatan quite simply doesn't hold up. If Pauling were still alive he would have given his support to Rath.

If you want to talk about snake oil let's talk about anti-viral meds for a moment, currently no long-term clinical proof for prolonged survival exists from controlled studies.  

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/the_truth_about_arvs/about_arvs_2.html

Also loads of info on HAART failure from http://www.healtoronto.com/ptease.html quote "The protease inhibitor drugs Crixivan (indinavir) and Invarase (saquinavir) caused T cell death in healthy HIV negative donor blood in three separate experiments.". You couldn't make this stuff up. All referenced on that page.

So here we have an expensive medication killing the very cells HIV positives are so gravely depleted of, to me this exactly fits the description of snake oil as laid out by the dictionary.

Dictionary: snake oil

n.

   1. A worthless preparation fraudulently peddled as a cure for many ills.*
   2. Speech or writing intended to deceive; humbug.

*Big pharma cover themselves in the small print of their product information, e.g Crixivan - "At present, there are no results from controlled clinical trials evaluating the effect of therapy with CRIXIVAN on clinical progression of HIV infection, such as survival or the incidence of opportunistic infections". Classic, wish I had a business like this.

Also from: Inflammatory Reactions in HIV-1-Infected Persons after Initiation of Highly Active Antiretroviral Therapy

"It is possible that HAART may actually promote the clinical expression and development of such infections, as well as AIDS-related malignant conditions and other noninfectious diseases" This is a review article with 95 references.

http://www.healtoronto.com/haart_aids2.html


I running short on time now will have to answer the rest of your post in a day or so.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/01/2009 20:19:20
In the real world, if green tea and vitamin C cured aids then the disease would have died out ages ago.
In your world you cite a guy who thinks that feeding DMF - an industrial solvent and known human teratogen to people is a good idea.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 25/01/2009 23:41:12
I never said anything about curing using vit c and green tea just that they have the ability to inhibit HIV.

As far as DMF goes I know absolutely nothing about it so I can't comment until I've read both sides of it's use. If I believe that he has tried to profit from a dangerous substance I will say so.

I have learned from prior experience not to immediately dismiss something because the concept sounds strange.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 26/01/2009 00:36:39
Interesting this is all new to me.

Apparently he was using a slow transdermal delivery system of DMF called Virodene made by www.virodene.com according to their brochure the results of a study that was conducted at the Pretoria Academic Hospital in Pretoria, South Africa provided sufficient anecdotal evidence of Safety and Efficacy for Guy’s Drug Research Unit in London, UK, to undertake a Phase I Study on healthy volunteers.

It looks safe so far from the data provided by them with their phase 1 and 2 clinical trials, however it looks like even though their data shows it was safe they did not conduct the clinical trials according to procedural rules. This got them into trouble and the drug was subsequently removed for use in SA.

In credit to virodene.com the editor of the South African Medical Journal did write a story titled 'Give Virodene and the minister a break' saying things are so bad in the country from AIDS that there is a need to find out the truth about virodene. One AIDS sufferer commented "Were dying anyway so why not give us the bloody virodene to try?".

From their brochure: http://www.virodene.com/downloads/Virodene_Executive_Brouchure.pdf

PHASE I CLINICAL TRIALS – LONDON UK

A double blind, placebo-controlled Study was conducted to evaluate the safety, tolerability and pharmacokinetics of a single dose of Virodene® PO58 on ten healthy male volunteers. 1997 - 2000 Various accredited international Clinical Research Organizations (CRO) and Laboratories were contracted to conduct the Study according to ICH guidelines for Good Clinical Practice (GCP).

• A Supranational Review Board, consisting of top international Peers, authorities in their relevant fields of expertise reviewed and approved the Study Protocol
• The Medicines Regulatory Body (MRA) in Great Britain did not regulate Phase I Studies until April 2004, and as such, only an Institutional Ethics Committee Approval was required to conduct this Study
• Guy’s Hospital Ethics Committee reviewed and approved an amended version of the Protocol, after recommendations by London Toxicologist, Prof Anthony Dayan
• Lloyds of London insured the Study
• Quintiles Guy’s Drug Research Unit (GDRU) of Guy’s Hospital, London, were responsible for the Clinical Trial Management, Monitoring and Pathology Analyses Drs Tim Mant and Dipti Amin were the Principal Investigators for the
Study Dr LW Sequeira, a British Virologist was contracted as an Independent Monitor
• The National Institute of Public Health, Prague, determined the drug absorption rate
• FARMOVS-PAREXEL , Bloemfontein, South Africa, an accredited Biopharmaceutical Laboratory conducted the Pharmacokinetics Analyses
• Quintiles ClinData were responsible for the Data Management, Statistical
Analysis, Data Audits, Medical writing as well as the Final Study Report

Phase I Safety Results
• The drug was generally well tolerated
• There were no clinically significant changes in the relevant blood values
• There were no serious adverse events
• Mild transient discomfort such as nausea, headache, or local skin irritation was experienced in some cases

Clinical Conclusion
• The Study Report indicated that a single dose of Virodene® PO58 is safe
• The data derived from this study provides the information for Phase II Clinical Studies in HIV/AIDS volunteer subjects

PHASE II CLINICAL TRIALS – TANZANIA

A double blind, placebo-controlled Clinical Trial was conducted to evaluate the safety, tolerability, pharmacokinetics and efficacy of multiple doses of Virodene® PO58 on 64 HIV/AIDS infected male volunteers. 2000 – 2004 With the exception of GDRU, the Clinical Research Organizations (CRO) involved in the Phase I Study were contracted to conduct this Clinical Trial according to ICH guidelines for Good Clinical Practice (GCP).

• Quintiles ClinData wrote the Protocol for the above Study in co-operation with the Company and designed and provided all the required study documentation
• Quintiles MCC Consultants designed the Clinical Trial Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs)
• Quintiles Clindepharm did a feasibility study for conducting the trials in Tanzania at the selected sites, Lugalo General Military Hospital and Chadibwa Medical Clinic
• The Tanzanian Peoples Defence Force were contracted to conduct the trial under the guidance and supervision of the Clinical Trial Manager
• Lugalo General Military Hospital was selected as the main contracted site centre and Chadibwa Medical Clinic to handle the subjects overflow Drs Jason Bigambo and Neema Simkoko were appointed as the local Investigators who conducted the Clinical Trial with the support of comprehensive local clinical teams Dr LW Sequeira, a British Virologist was contracted as the Co-Investigator
• Two local Independent Medical Monitors were contracted to:
Ensure ICH for GCP adherence during the Trial
To take medical decisions regarding patient safety

• The following Regulatory Bodies and Ethics Committees approved the Protocol
A Supranational Review Board (IRB/IEC)
The Tanzanian Minister of Health
The Tanzanian Military Medical Council
Lugalo General Military Hospital Ethics Committee
Chadibwa Medical Clinic Ethics Committee

• Lloyds of London insured the Clinical Trial
• Pharma Research Consultants were contracted as Clinical Trial Manager, to manage, oversee & monitor the Clinical Trial and CRF completion
• Pathcare, an Internationally Accredited Laboratory in SA did the Bio-Pharmaceutical Analyses
• Quint i les Cl inData were responsible for the Medical wr i t ing, Data Management, Statistical Analysis, Data Audits, as well as the Final Study Report

Safety Results

• The drug was generally well tolerated
• There were no clinically significant changes in the relevant blood values
• No serious adverse events occurred

Side Effects

• Mild transient discomfort such as nausea, headache, or local skin irritation was experienced in some cases

Efficacy Results

• The immune system indicator (CD4/T4 cell count) increased from a mean of 225 to 324 cells/mm3 of blood
• By comparison, subjects who did not receive Virodene® (placebo group) showed an insignificant increase (260.5 to 291 cells/mm3)

Clinical Conclusion

Virodene® PO58 proved to be safe, well tolerated, and efficacious in immune compromised (HIV/AIDS) volunteers.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 28/01/2009 16:05:50
Bored Chemist I am currently sourcing the data with regards to ozone and chlorine dioxide and why their mechanism of action is so similar. Be patient with me as it's tax return time.

Here is a link to Jim Humbles book all about his experiences with MMS/sodium chlorite/chlorine dioxide if your interested, please ignore the title of this link Jim humble only ever claimed that it cured malaria not HIV or hepatitus.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/932837/Sodium-Chlorite-Rid-Body-of-HIV-Hep-Malaria-in-3-days-
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/01/2009 19:27:26


If you are going to say "As far as DMF goes I know absolutely nothing about it so I can't comment until I've read both sides of it's use." then you really need to read the other side too.
http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/DI/N,N-dimethylformamide.html
"Harmful by inhalation, ingestion or skin contact. May act as a carcinogen. Ingestion or absorption through skin may be fatal. Exposure may result in foetal death. Long-term exposure may result in kidney or liver damage. Irritant. "
I'd also like to see the statistics behind this claim
"• The immune system indicator (CD4/T4 cell count) increased from a mean of 225 to 324 cells/mm3 of blood
• By comparison, subjects who did not receive Virodene® (placebo group) showed an insignificant increase (260.5 to 291 cells/mm3)"
Since the changes are both of similar magnitude this is a rather weak claim. Doing nothing increased the count by about a third as much as the "treatment", which is odd in a progressive disease.
So there's, at best, weak evidence of a beneficial effect (which almost certainly isn't clinically significant) and strong evidence of long- term toxicity (which could never have shown up in the so-called safety testing cited because it was very short term.)
That's not the sort of evidence I'd like. At best it shows that small doses of the stuff don't cause harm that is aparent within a short timr (of course, all the volunteers might have died the day after the trial ended- that's why I'd like to see a proper trial, but only after there's some good animal data showing that the stuff offers a real benfit in terms of disease progression and or longevity)

Also, while you say there's no evidence that the conventional treatments work I think it's clear that AIDS patients in the West now live longer than they used to, so something must be helping them. If it's not the drugs then what  can you sugest?

As for Chlorite vs malaria I covered it before. I'm not reading the whole 275 page book. It starts off by describing exactly the sort of thing you would expect for a relapsing disease- no evidence other than that malaria comes and goes- it's famous for dioing that.
You still need to explain how a very reactive species gets from the stomach into the blood and then into the parasites without reacting with something on the way. Until you can do that the story isn't plausible.



Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 29/01/2009 15:26:09
The following bits of info should satisfy you that it does make its way into the blood when taken orally.

From http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0496.htm

"Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) in drinking water rapidly degrades to chlorite (ClO2-), chlorate (ClO3-), and chloride ion (Cl-). In an epidemiology study by Michael et al. (1981), chlorine dioxide rapidly disappeared from the stored water (within 2-4 hours) and water chlorite concentrations concomitantly increased. Once absorbed, chlorine dioxide and chlorite are cleared from the blood at similar rates and are similarly distributed throughout the body (Abdel-Rahman et al., 1979, 1982). Additionally, chloride is the major in vivo degradation product for chlorine dioxide, chlorite, and chlorate. The available data suggest that chlorine dioxide and chlorite have similar targets of toxicity and potencies. Therefore, the toxicity information for chlorite is relevant to deriving an RfD for chlorine dioxide. See also the oral RfD entry in the IRIS Summary for chlorite."

Also from http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a784744404~db=all

"Chlorine dioxide (CIO2) is under consideration as an alternative to chlorination as a disinfectant for public water supplies. The primary products resulting from CIO2 disinfection of surface waters are chlorite (CIO2-) and chlorates (CIO3-). The kinetics of 36CIO2- and 36CIO3- was studied in rats. Radioactivity was rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract following the administration of (0.17 μ Ci)36CIO2- or (0.85 μ Ci)36CIO3- orally, and 36CI in plasma reached a peak at 2 hours and 1 hour, respectively. After 72 hours, radioactivity was highest in whole blood, followed by packed cells, plasma, stomach, testes, skin, lung, kidney, duodenum, carcass, spleen, ileum, brain, bone marrow, and liver in 36CIO2- treatment. 36CI excretion was greatest at 24 hours after the administration of 36CIO3-, but in the 36CIO2-, the excretion most likely represented saturation of the biotransformation and excretion pathways. About 40% of the total initial dose was excreted at 72 hours in the urine and feces in both treatments. No 36CI was detected in expired air throughtout the 72 hours studied. "

From http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/sodrite/cie114.htm

" If ingested, corrosive materials can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, cramps and pain. Sodium chlorite can also cause temporary damage to the red blood cells* based on limited animal and human information. A man intentionally consumed 10 g sodium chlorite in 100 mL of water."

*This shows that it is reaching the red blood cells and hence the malaria parasite. Makes me laugh that this nutjob actually drank 10grams of the stuff, about 2 heaped teaspoons full.

From http://www.lenntech.com/chlorine_dioxide.htm

"Of the oxidizing biocides, chlorine dioxide is the most selective oxidant. Both ozone and chlorine are much more reactive than chlorine dioxide, and they will be consumed by most organic compounds. Chlorine dioxide however, reacts only with reduced sulphur compounds, secondary and tertiary amines, and some other highly reduced and reactive organics. This allows much lower dosages of chlorine dioxide to achieve a more stable residual than either chlorine or ozone. Chlorine dioxide, generated properly (all chlorine dioxide is not created equal), can be effectively used in much higher organic loading than either ozone or chlorine because of its selectivity."

From http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118790074/abstract

"The malaria parasite Plasmodium falciparum is highly adapted to cope with the oxidative stress to which it is exposed during the erythrocytic stages of its life cycle. This includes the defence against oxidative insults arising from the parasite's metabolism of haemoglobin which results in the formation of reactive oxygen species and the release of toxic ferriprotoporphyrin IX. Central to the parasite's defences are superoxide dismutases and thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases; however, they lack catalase and glutathione peroxidases. The vital importance of the thioredoxin redox cycle (comprising NADPH, thioredoxin reductase and thioredoxin) is emphasized by the confirmation that thioredoxin reductase is essential for the survival of intraerythrocytic P. falciparum[/u]. The parasites also contain a fully functional glutathione redox system and the low-molecular-weight thiol glutathione is not only an important intracellular thiol redox buffer but also a cofactor for several redox active enzymes such as glutathione S-transferase and glutaredoxin. Recent findings have shown that in addition to these cytosolic redox systems the parasite also has an important mitochondrial antioxidant defence system and it is suggested that lipoic acid plays a pivotal part in defending the organelle from oxidative damage."

Thomas Lee Hesselinks article[1] was to propose further research into its potential use in malaria. I have now read it three times and I fail to see how it does not deserve further research as it will burn up the parasites thioredoxin(see above and Hesselinks article) leaving it completely vunerable to more chlorite ions and H2O2 being produced from neutrophils. The American Chemical Society, Analytical Chemistry Division stated in 1999 that chlorine dioxide is the most powerful killer of pathogens known to man so I'm betting if chlorite ions come into contact with an infected red blood cell the process will be antipathogenic. Medically oriented references for its use as a potential medicine do not exist(as yet). Obviously there are financial issues with this happening in the west so I wont be holding my breath for GlaxoSmithkline to do a study. 

You stated it doesn't work - personally I think the correct answer is that it may work and thus deserves more attention. I personally do not doubt it. One thing to remember is because of the ease of administration of MMS is that results for treating any type of infection should be easy to test.

The only illness I have had which I had the chance to use this(unactivated sodium chlorite) on was the dreaded winter vomiting bug the symptoms of which were much less severe and shorter than the rest of my household. Because of this I will always keep hold of the stuff.

As far as HIV goes below is a link where the British Medical Journal generously hosted an internet debate concerning the nature and causes of AIDS beginning with David Rasnick's February 2003 response to a paper entitled The Politics of AIDS in South Africa, and continuing until April 2005. Not one mainstream HIV expert could provide evidence of a long term controlled trial showing drugs prolonged lives so until the evidence is provided the jury is still out. You quite correctly stated people are living longer and there are people who take meds and have lived for 20+ years but there are also lots of people who have been alive the same length of time completely drug free. Both sides of this argument will tell you that gays in the 80's were partying every night, taking drugs and having multiple unprotected sexual contacts per week and taking antibiotics like they were going out of fashion for other STD's, combine this with a poor understanding at the time of HIV nutrition and it is no wonder that they died quicker than they do today.

http://healtoronto.com/survivors.html#wells

http://www.rethinking.org/bmj/index.html

[1]On The Mechanisms Of Toxicity Of Chlorine Oxides Against Malarial Parasites - An Overview By Thomas Lee Hesselink,MD http://nodiseaseinfo.com/mechanisms.htm
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/01/2009 20:01:22
OK, so
"Once absorbed, chlorine dioxide and chlorite are cleared from the blood at similar rates and are similarly distributed throughout the body (Abdel-Rahman et al., 1979, 1982)."
Shows that the stuff isn't stable in blood, but gives no idea of how long the stuff survives.
"Radioactivity was rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract following the administration of (0.17 μ Ci)36CIO2- or (0.85 μ Ci)36CIO3- orally, "
That shows that the Cl is absorbed, but it doesn't say in what oxidation state. It's possible that the bulk of the stuff is reduced to chloride before crossing the gut wall.

"Sodium chlorite can also cause temporary damage to the red blood cells*"
That proves that the stuff reacts with red blood cells. Having done so it is no longer in a position to damage the parasites.

" Chlorine dioxide, generated properly (all chlorine dioxide is not created equal), "
Ridiculous- this requires ClO2 to have a memory of how it was made. Clearly nonsense, but just the sort of thing you have to say to explain why your "miracle cure" didn't work this time.

"Chlorine dioxide however, reacts only with reduced sulphur compounds, secondary and tertiary amines, and some other highly reduced and reactive organics"
The body is full of thiols and amines so there's plenty to destroy the stuff before it could do any good.

Incidentally, those same thiols are a large part of the reason why mercury and arsenic are toxic.


Why no animal studies of this stuff against malaria?
That would be pretty convincing and less of an ethical dilema than human studies (in my view anyway- if someone wants to talk about the ethics of animal experimentation please set up your own thread)

Also that "Humble" bloke doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Here are a couple of quotes
"resultant solution is always mixed into a glass of water or apple juice and taken orally"
"Significant amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point in the mixtures or else this will quench the chlorine dioxide (ClO2).

Now, since there's vitamin C in apple juice...

While we are at it,
"For the same reason antioxidant supplements should not be taken on the day of treatment. "
Now, in the real world it's not just suplements that contain anti oxidants. Food does too.
How come the people taking this stuff are not advised to avioid foods with antioxidants in them? (and BTW, that's a lot of foods you would need to "restrict".
Unless the people involved in the trial happened not to eat any fresh fruit or veg they would kill this "medicine".
Were they all living on meat pies?



Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 29/01/2009 22:11:33
You said "That proves that the stuff reacts with red blood cells. Having done so it is no longer in a position to damage the parasites."

Why does that mean it can no longer damage the parasites? Please bear in mind the parasite lives in red blood cells and the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite.

You said "this requires ClO2 to have a memory of how it was made. Clearly nonsense, but just the sort of thing you have to say to explain why your "miracle cure" didn't work this time."

I didn't really know where you were coming from with this as it was evident to me that this was written in the context of talking about the quality of output of chlorine dioxide generators. I placed that bit of info in there to show that it doesn't react immediately with organic compounds like other oxidisers.

You said "The body is full of thiols and amines so there's plenty to destroy the stuff before it could do any good."

Yes correct - of course some of it will react with components other than red blood cells. But it is still going to react with red blood cells.

You said "Incidentally, those same thiols are a large part of the reason why mercury and arsenic are toxic."

Mercury and arsenic as we all know are toxic. There is no data to show that sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide act as carcinogens in any way.

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0496.htm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474471

You said "Why no animal studies of this stuff against malaria?
That would be pretty convincing and less of an ethical dilema than human studies (in my view anyway- if someone wants to talk about the ethics of animal experimentation please set up your own thread)"

That might be because malaria only affects humans.

You said "Also that "Humble" bloke doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Here are a couple of quotes
"resultant solution is always mixed into a glass of water or apple juice and taken orally"
"Significant amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point in the mixtures or else this will quench the chlorine dioxide (ClO2).

Now, since there's vitamin C in apple juice...

While we are at it,
"For the same reason antioxidant supplements should not be taken on the day of treatment. "
Now, in the real world it's not just suplements that contain anti oxidants. Food does too.
How come the people taking this stuff are not advised to avioid foods with antioxidants in them? (and BTW, that's a lot of foods you would need to "restrict".
Unless the people involved in the trial happened not to eat any fresh fruit or veg they would kill this "medicine".
Were they all living on meat pies?"

Well in a glass of apple juice(not fresh) most ascorbic acid is actually added as a preservative and were talking milligrams here even in food the amount of antioxidants would soon be burned up in the body by ingesting an oxidiser. I'm sure this information is aimed at people taking 10 grams of vit c or some selenium daily or some other such equivalent. But personally I wouldn't use anything with any vit c in just citric or acetic acid in credit to Humble he did say "Significant amounts of vitamin c".
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/03/2009 21:45:17
"the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite."
Er? What?
"Yes correct - of course some of it will react with components other than red blood cells. But it is still going to react with red blood cells."
Which is a pity since red blood cells are important.
Of course, in order to get to the paprsite it needs to get through the wall of the red blood cell, not react with it.

"Mercury and arsenic as we all know are toxic. There is no data to show that sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide act as carcinogens in any way."
Er, actually there's plenty of evidence to sugest that chlorine dioxide is toxic- not least the fact that it reacts with lots of important bits of the body. I know- I have inhaled some and I can assure you it buggers up your lungs. That it isn't a carcinogen is hardly the point- Mercury is, at most, a very poor carcinogen, but I wouldn't go sprinkling it on my breakfast.

"That might be because malaria only affects humans."
Or it might not, since malaria does affect other animals.
Have a look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmodium

Straightforward lies like that don't help your credibility you know.

Humble did say "Significant amounts of vitamin c"."
Those who do not ingest "significant" quantities of vitamin C get scurvy- if they carry on, they die.







Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: testtest on 17/03/2009 01:03:26
You wrote:

"Straightforward lies like that don't help your credibility you know."

After I read your post and stopped laughing I started to wonder if you take any anti psychotic medication or maybe that's just my opinion, but hey what's my opinion worth as I've got no credibility anyway apparently!

Ok I wrote:

"the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite." This simply means - are you ready for this, deep breath ok? - YOU JUST TAKE MORE OF IT.

You wrote:

"Which is a pity since red blood cells are important.
Of course, in order to get to the paprsite it needs to get through the wall of the red blood cell, not react with it."

Blood cells are important oh I never knew that thankyou for sharing that with us, yawn... Well if you look at you will see that there is practically no RBC wall left in a maturing Plasmodium falciparum. Hmmm that's not a lot of protection. Oh and by the way it's an established fact that diseased cells (any cells that is) antioxidant capability is either not funtioning or at the very least hindered before apoptosis happens.

You wrote:

"Er, actually there's plenty of evidence to sugest that chlorine dioxide is toxic"

Well I never said 'toxic' I said 'carcinogenic' which should be taken in the context of the size of ORAL doses used by people. Seeing as you like to mention animal studies so much there is one that comes to mind = 'Studies of carcinogenicity of sodium chlorite in B6C3F1 mice.'

I said:

"That might be because malaria only affects humans."

And then you said:

"Or it might not, since malaria does affect other animals.
Have a look here."

Which linked to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmodium

To quote from that page:

"Of the 200+ known species of Plasmodium, at least 10 species infect humans. Other species infect animals, including birds, reptiles and rodents. The parasite always has two hosts in its life cycle: a mosquito vector and a vertebrate host."

If you had even bothered to read wikipedias malaria page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria))NOT PLASMODIUM page you would find:

"The malaria parasites do not affect animal species and therefore eradication of the disease from the human population would be expected to be effective."


I really can't wait for your next answer hopefully you can give me one when you get back from school tomorrow, but then again I expect your really busy with maintaining all your credibility. [:D]
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/03/2009 20:54:41
Meanwhile, back on the planet earth.
It's been a while since I went to school.

Animal models used for testing are generally not exactly the same species as the human forms of the diseases- that's why they are models.
The particular parasite that infects humans doesn't generally infect other animals (whoever wrote the wiki page on malaria might be guilty of sloppy writing, but I don't think many people would have interpreted it the way you did) and the forms that infect other animals don't generally infect us. So what? The animal forms can still be used as a model, and they are.
Here's an example.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=347712
Now, from that article about malaria in mice it's pretty clear that mice get malaria.
From that it's pretty clear that your assertion that "malaria only affects humans" suffer somewhat from being totally at odds with reallity or, to put it bluntly, it's not true.

BTW, why did you bother to introduce the matter of carcinogenicity? Were you hoping that nobody would spot the blatant strawman or did you somehow think it would bolster your credibility?

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: jeremiyah on 23/03/2009 08:55:19



   "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."
When was the last time you priced it? And successfully purchased some? NOT? NOT!



   "To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap."  Where do "my own feeling" and "load of crap" enter into a "scientific" discussion? Your presupposition  that it is a  "load of crap" is based, not an educated hypothesis, followed by a series of double blind tests during which you compiled "empirical evidence" (ever heard the phrase before?) and proved or disproved your hypothesis, but rather on "my own feeling." Question; why do you write on this forum? You should be on a religion or psychology based forum- something where emotion,  and "touchy-feely" attitudes mean something. "Did you wake up feeling like this...what did you feel when you read about MMS?"
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: BenV on 23/03/2009 09:21:59
   "To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap."  Where do "my own feeling" and "load of crap" enter into a "scientific" discussion? Your presupposition  that it is a  "load of crap" is based, not an educated hypothesis, followed by a series of double blind tests during which you compiled "empirical evidence" (ever heard the phrase before?) and proved or disproved your hypothesis, but rather on "my own feeling." Question; why do you write on this forum? You should be on a religion or psychology based forum- something where emotion,  and "touchy-feely" attitudes mean something. "Did you wake up feeling like this...what did you feel when you read about MMS?"

Chris not mentioning the backing to his idea of this being "a load of crap" does not mean that he does not have good reason to think so.  Might I suggest that before you attack members of this forum in that way that you read their other posts so you will have a better idea of the attitudes of those you're attacking?

You could have asked Chris why he feels this way, and then he could have supplied the evidence or argument that led to his opinion.  Instead, you attacked him. This fosters bad feeling and will not encourage healthy discussion.

With my moderators hat on, I'd like to tell you that this is not how this forum works, and please refrain from personal attacks in the future.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/03/2009 20:04:28



   "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."
When was the last time you priced it? And successfully purchased some? NOT? NOT!

  
Jeremiyah
What could that possibly have to do with the question?
I don't have a dog and I never have had.
Accordingly I have never priced dog food or successfully purchased any.
That state of affairs says nothing about the cost of dog food.

On the other hand I have made chlorite and, had you read this thread fully and understood it, you would have known that.

Turning up on the forum as a new member, insulting one of the people there and failing to even read what another had said is not a good start.
Incidentally, it's possible that Chris had read and understood what I had written and that might have led him to think that the idea o using the stuff is "a load of crap". Lets face it the evidence shows that it is "a load of crap" and you have done absolutely nothing to show otherwise.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Raghavendra on 26/03/2009 07:47:45
It is used by village people [O8)] for small wounds !!!
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/03/2009 21:02:19
That would explain a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_People
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: I on 12/05/2009 04:52:58
Hey,

someone already posted a link to the original Document of "The Great Humble", but as scripd-flashbook, so here's the link to the download of the pdf:
http://www.miraclemineral.org/part1.php

although the last post is > a month back, I couldn't help but toss in my 2 cents.

a) Humble is indeed a Quack and for a big part has no clue what he's talking about, some of this is just rubbish, some could be, but is unsupported claim

b) I also think he's dangerous and unethical - if his claims are true that he gave that stuff to ten thousands of people, often causing vomiting and other rather drastic side-effects - I wonder how many people actually died of that treatment after he left (or perhaps while he was there, but of course those deaths weren't related to this medicine).

c) if you read his book, you see that he tells us he actually got the WHO to test his miracle medicine (page 80-82 in the document above) and it failed - now I'd love to see a detailed protocol on what he did). As a true believer, Humble of course totally ignores this result.

d) oh and the man is also an idiot (sorry for my clear language) - it's a good read, he claims to have paid some guys $14000 for writing... well, something like an internet-worm that "spreads the truth" by email... (page 31) oh well, read this if you need a good laugh.


on the other hand, I find this really has the potential to be an antibiotic, I'd say.
I think testtest quoted some reasonably decent sources that show that the stuff at least passes into the bloodstream, although  we don't know what tissues it penetrates (or doesn't). A 2-4 hours lifetime isn't so great either, but considering that it's a fairly reactive (and volatile) molecule, that's neither surprising, nor does it mean it doesn't have enough time to kill bugs.

If you look at toxicity ... well, it's a bit weird - Chloride dioxide is EU-classified as T+ "very toxic" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide ), but if you look a bit further:

LD50    292 mg/kg (oral, rat)
German Wikipedia:
    * 1.550 mg/kg (rat, oral, 5%-ige Lsg)(5)
    * 292 mg/kg (rat, oral)(6)(7)
    * 260 ppm/2h (LCLo, rat, inh)(8)

1.5 g/kg rat if you feed it a 5% solution!! (I wonder what the  300mg/kg are... other than the values from the German Wikipedia, this value is unsourced - go to de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlordioxid for references 5,6,7 and 8)

German Wikipeida also writes how amazingly resistant vertebrae are against chlorine dioxide and claims that their tolerance is about twentyfold of what is used for water-disinfection - which is a concentration that is deemed high enough to leave you with pathogen-free water... (also look at

Of course, the argument that other than in water, there are lots and lots more reactive chemicals within the human body  which might just inactivate it very rapidly holds. That it can damage red blood cells shows that it *can* pass into the bloodstream, although from what I've seen it's not clear if that happens at insane concentrations fed to rats, where it just oxidizes everything in the stomach/gut inside and lining (that can be oxidized by it), and this way passes to the blood.

And apropos reacting to blood cells - it cannot be reacting preferentially and fast with blood cells, else how could the mice have survived for 90 days with 1g/l in their drinking water (note that according to (0) their levels of red blood cells went down within 30 days, but then went up to normal again)?

Destruction of the molecule definitely happens at concentrations 60 ppm (1) ...
Water disinfection uses up to 0.2mg/l that would be ...

http://www.google.com/#q=((0.2g)%2F(67.45+g%2Fmol))+%2F+(1kg%2F(18g%2Fmol))+*+1+million (http://www.google.com/#q=((0.2g)%2F(67.45+g%2Fmol))+%2F+(1kg%2F(18g%2Fmol))+*+1+million)

would be 53 ppm, if I didn't make a typo there.

Well, seems if you want it to enter the bloodstream, you need lots more... (lets see what amounts that Humble chappie claims to have given people - I'll post when I find out).

Not so surprisingly, it _is_ effective as a mouth-wash, though... (and I think someone patented it for that application, but I can't come up with a reference right now).


I

-------------------------------------------------------

(0) Abdel-Rahman 1982: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1569035 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1569035)

(1) http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474311 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474311)
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 21/05/2009 20:56:35
Bored chemist wrote "It doesn't work. Pity."

I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/05/2009 22:14:36
Good luck.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tris on 15/06/2009 04:22:49
Bored chemist wrote "It doesn't work. Pity."

I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...

Observer debate:

Observer: I Claim x
Adversary: Show evidence supporting your claim
Observer: No, you show evidence disproving my claim

That's not how it works, sport.

"Testimonials" are not evidence.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 15/06/2009 11:11:01
Wrong: I claim nothing at all. My "claim" as I mentioned remains open until I have reported my own experience. On the other hand a blatant claim was made that mms does not work. I merely asked on what evidence this claim was made. Maybe you ought to read the complete thread before you attempt to analyse with false deduction "sport" [:D]
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2009 19:00:38
Would all the people who keep telling me to provide evidence please read the thread.
In particular could they address the bit where I pointed out that "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."


Also I'd prefer if they answered without asking silly questions about whether or not I have personally purchased the stuff.

If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work.

Incidentally claiming that some gloop kills a disease is actualy the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 16/06/2009 10:53:07
Bored Chemist wrote: "If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work." [???]


I will have to disagree with your deduction too.
It could be acceptable something like this:

If this stuff killed malaria AND it was administered in all areas where malaria existed, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore this stuff is not administered in all areas where malaria exists OR the stuff doesn't kill malaria.

Bored Chemist wrote:
"Incidentally claiming that some gloop kills a disease is actually the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence."

I will have to agree 100% on this one but as I have already stated I claim absolutely nothing about the success mms has on killing disease. In all fairness though, one can make no claims that it does not work based on false or illogical deductions. 
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/06/2009 19:32:32
OK, now explain why, given that the stuff is cheap and readilly available, it isn't "administered in all areas where malaria existed".
It can't be that it's too expensive.
It has nothing to do with "big pharma" or patents.
It's not a matter of "because it's not in the big fancy journals, nobody dares use it".

Now, I apologise for not adding this point explicitly to my argument earlier, but I thought it was too obvious to bother.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 17/06/2009 08:01:12
Bingo!

OK- Now I think we’re getting somewhere. This is a viable explanation as to why mms is not administered everywhere malaria exists. One would at this point (especially a bored scientist) would have to raise the question why nobody dare use it. There could be several reasons for this (I am sure we could think of many more):

1.) It is not known in certain regions of the globe (especially regions where malaria is prevalent).
2.) It is not offered by the pharmaceutical industry.
3.) It is not approved by the FDA, etc.
4.) Death or serious illness result as a consequence of using sodium chlorite  [xx(]

I do not have the answers. I ran across this forum because I am searching for answers. I am neither defending nor rejecting “mms” at this point. I can, like you, and everybody else who is exchanging information just speculate:

1.) Not all regions of the globe have ready access to pertinent information, especially the internet. This would make it extremely difficult to “spread the word.”

2.) For whatever reason this may be. I don’t even want to speculate on this one.

3.) Ditto

4.) Could be, but if that was the case, I would assume we would be seeing a whole lot of negative reports slipping into the media. If this was the case I would be endangered myself as I have been taking mms for 3 weeks now and feel great. A comparison of my lab results before and after my self-administered therapy will reveal if there are healing powers (for me).
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2009 19:38:25
Re "This is a viable explanation as to why mms is not administered everywhere malaria exists. "
No explanation was offered in that post.

An explanation was offered earlier (i.e. that it doesn't work) but you have rejected that.

Lets have a look at those 4 points again.
1 India has a significant malaria problem, a reasonably effetive government and enough links to the 'net (as well as other sources of information). Yet they too don't use this stuff.
One region of the world would do to prove the point.

2
You have proved that this is a red herring. Who cares what the pharmaceutical industry thinks? You take the stuff; so could others.

3
There might be a simple reason why it's not aproved, either it hasn't been tested or it has been tested and found to fail.

Most potential treatments don't get tested.
As far as I know nobody has ever tested rectally administered fishpaste, for example, as a cure for malaria. Nor has a double blind trial been done on blood letting by a leather clad virgin at the full moon.

There's a good reason why these sort of things don't get tried. It's because there's no reason to supose that they work.
You can't test everything.

Since the "evidence" for this stuff working is some quack saying that the stuff still works after you dissolve it in apple juice (which, in the real world, would destroy it) most people are not going to take that suggestion seriously. You can hardly blame the FDA and it's equivalents for doing so.

However
(here's the biggie) Doctors are permited to prescribe things that are not aproved by the FDA.

So, if they thought this stuff worked they would be duty bound to prescribe it.

4
It doesn't need to be very toxic to be not prescribed; a really good reason for not using it would be that it simply doesn't work.

Plenty of drugs (legal or otherwise) are responsible for lots of deaths; they still get used.

In order for chlorite to be used it would have to be effective and to offer benefits beyond the normal treatments.

And if you really believe that  "A comparison of my lab results before and after my self-administered therapy will reveal if there are healing powers (for me)." then you don't know a lot about drug testing.
 Spontaneous remission is not unheard of with hep c.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 18/06/2009 07:24:56
Sorry for the typo. It should have read: "There is a viable explanation..."

But getting to the real point:

As I have stated time and again, I am looking for answers not silly assumptions and wannabe deductions. You don't have to feel obligated to give the answers if you can't provide them. You are of course like me and everybody else, entitled to your opinion though. Nothing wrong with that. I personally don't care for the way you attempt to dismiss the subject based solely on your opinions and I personally do not accept them. You may also put down conclusive lab results as not acceptable because of the fact that Hep C is known to be remissive. I would think that this should at least warrant a closer look as to why, just by sheer coincidence, it becomes spontaneously remissive after a sodium chlorite therapy. In the end, you may really be guessing right and there may be many many coincidences that would lead one to assume there is a benefit in chlorite effectively treating certain diseases. Nevertheless, should there be a positive development in my own lab results I will of course not put it down as coincidence. I will continue to search until I, for myself, have conclusive results. For all the others out there searching for answers maybe that would be just one little baby step in gaining momentum towards finding truth and not emotional mud slinging about something that, at this point and as far as I can tell, can neither be proved or dismissed. I will show results  based on facts. Others may decide for themselves. Maybe, if need be, we could construct a phrase like "persistant spontaneous remission" if things don't happen to turn out the way you would like to see them.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/06/2009 19:45:20
"As I have stated time and again, I am looking for answers not silly assumptions and wannabe deductions."
Then start answering things and stop making them.

Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?

"You may also put down conclusive lab results as not acceptable "
I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect.
"I would think that this should at least warrant a closer look as to why, just by sheer coincidence, it becomes spontaneously remissive after a sodium chlorite therapy. "
All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing.
That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise).

" Nevertheless, should there be a positive development in my own lab results I will of course not put it down as coincidence."
OK, but you ought to realise that that statement is an act of faith, not science.
You have no evidence (bar a known logical fallacy) that it isn't a coincidence.
"I will continue to search until I, for myself, have conclusive results."
How?
"For all the others out there searching for answers maybe that would be just one little baby step in gaining momentum towards finding truth "
Or it could be a small step towards superstition, and ignorance. You simply cannot tell which on the basis of one person's result.

"Maybe, if need be, we could construct a phrase like "persistant spontaneous remission" if things don't happen to turn out the way you would like to see them. "
The way I would like to see things turn out is that someone comes up with a real malaria cure and that, in the same way as was done with smallpox, we eradicate this disease.
I don't see why you think we would need to make up some odd name for that.
What I don't want to see is scarce resources being used on a wild goosechase. I also don't want sick people exploited by snake oil salesmen. I also don't want to see these people's hopes raised by a false prophet, then dashed on the rocks of reallity. I was angry to see it done in South Africa where the government was trotting out some nonsense about AIDS being cured with the industrial solvent DMF.
Have you noticed, BTW, that it seems to be some of the same people who are claiming the wonders of chlorite?

Still that's enough about "the way" I "would like to see them"
What, exactly, do you want?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 19/06/2009 12:29:19
"Then start answering things and stop making them."

Now that tops just about everything you have fabricated up until now… How can I answer if I am myself looking for answers. If and when I have some answers, I assure you, I will post them.

"Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?"
I certainly do not know this nor do I claim to.

"I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect."

If lab results are not reliable then if I were you I think I might start looking for a more rewarding job. Maybe that is why you are bored.


"All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing. That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise)."

So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm.  [::)]

"OK, but you ought to realise that that statement is an act of faith, not science.
You have no evidence (bar a known logical fallacy) that it isn't a coincidence."

It is enough for me to know that either I can influence the viral load positively (meaning lowering the count) or eliminate the virus altogether.


"How?"

By continuous positive results up to eliminating the virus. Even if it is sustained spontaneous instantaneous persistent repetitive remission.


"Or it could be a small step towards superstition, and ignorance. You simply cannot tell which on the basis of one person's result."

Correct but if others brave to try based on facts it may eventually be more that one persons results.

"The way I would like to see things turn out is that someone comes up with a real malaria cure and that, in the same way as was done with smallpox, we eradicate this disease.
I don't see why you think we would need to make up some odd name for that.
What I don't want to see is scarce resources being used on a wild goosechase. I also don't want sick people exploited by snake oil salesmen. I also don't want to see these people's hopes raised by a false prophet, then dashed on the rocks of reallity. I was angry to see it done in South Africa where the government was trotting out some nonsense about AIDS being cured with the industrial solvent DMF.
Have you noticed, BTW, that it seems to be some of the same people who are claiming the wonders of chlorite?

Still that's enough about "the way" I "would like to see them"
What, exactly, do you want?"

I already told you several times that I am searching for answers not trying to proliferate myself on shaky claims and false deductions which btw is not exactly what you might call scientific. I am also looking to rid myself of the Hep C virus. I am neither trying to create false hope nor put something down before I myself am convinced. You may be a lab assistant but you have not succeeded in convincing me of anything at all other than the strong negative emotion on this subject which maybe you have good reason for. It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn’t continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: BenV on 19/06/2009 12:33:06
To totally change the subject and threadjack this conversation for a minute - I've recently made a special edition podcast based on the events at Birmingham University as part of World Hepatitis Day.  As a Hep C sufferer, I'd be very interested in your opinion.

You can find the podcast and transcript here:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/specials/show/2009.06.10/
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 19/06/2009 15:10:26
I would be happy to delve into the information this weekend. Shall I post my opinions on this thread?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 22/06/2009 11:29:42
Thanks for the link to the podcast. You touch on all the relevant subjects and offer concise “must have” information, especially for someone who is new to the subject. This would save a whole lot of time investigating various sources.

The information is also straightforward and easy to understand without getting lost in the details and complexities of the topic.

What I personally got out of the podcast was the reassurance that quantum leaps in the research of the furtive disease are being made and as a result smarter drugs are being developed with better response rates and less side effects than interferon/ribavirin.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2009 22:05:03
"Now that tops just about everything you have fabricated up until now… How can I answer if I am myself looking for answers."
You can answer the point I raised.
Perhaps better than this which seems to be a cop out.
""Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?"
I certainly do not know this nor do I claim to. "


"If lab results are not reliable then ..."
The results are reliable, but they can't do miracles. An important point of understanding science is understanding what its limits are.

"So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm."
Since I didn't say that it's a strawman. Please don't bother to do that again.

"It is enough for me to know that either I can influence the viral load positively (meaning lowering the count) or eliminate the virus altogether."

You can almost certainly do that, at least temporarily, via the placebo effect.

"
"How?"

By continuous positive results up to eliminating the virus. Even if it is sustained spontaneous instantaneous persistent repetitive remission.
"
That won't distinguish between spontaneous remission and a cure.

"Correct but if others brave to try based on facts it may eventually be more that one persons results."
I refer you back to the comment I made about fish paste.

"It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn't continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post.
"
I must be missing something here. This is your first post on the matter.



"I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
"

And, apart from the tacit implication that you are hoping for a cure (and I wish you luck BTW) there isn't any statement about what you actually want.

So, why, exactly did you say "...what I want which I stated in my very first post."

If you claim to be seeking proper scientific discussion I think you should leave out the logical fallacies like the post hoc one. You should skip the strawmen. You might want to cut out things like "You may be a lab assistant " and "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information " which might be take as ad hom attacks , particularly when based on apparently false statements like "otherwise you wouldn’t continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post."
(Oh, and it's a good idea not to include the false statements too.)

Incidentally, if you say "the moon is made of cheese" and I ask "how come it didn't melt when they landed a rocket driven ship on it?" it isn't an adequate response to say "I don't know".
You can do that in theology, but not in science. It is reasonable for me to ask questions. If you can't answer them that';s not my fault. The problem lies with your understanding, not mine.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 23/06/2009 19:15:29
I certainly didn't enter the forum to argue with you about your perception of things. I stated in my first post that I would post my own experience. No claims, no cheese moons and no false deductions.

The thread is named "does sodium chlorite have healing powers?".

What I wanted and stated in my first post was to answer the original question not with false claims and false deductions but with facts based on my own experience. I don't have to convince you or anybody else. This is also no testimonial! Let us just call it an experiment at my cost no strings attached.

Now for the facts:
                 
                 March 2009                  June 2009
Gamma-GT           180 U/l                    80 U/l
GOT (AST)           86 U/l                    97 U/l
GOP (ALT)          278 U/l                   249 U/l

No cure but I will continue my experiment and post my results.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/06/2009 19:47:49
"I stated in my first post that I would post my own experience."
And then you said that, in that post, you had said something else; but you hadn't.
Why did you do that?
Why did you make up the strawman?
Why the ad hom attacks?

You also said "you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down" which suggests that you missed this bit (posted 15/6/08), which is odd because there's quite a lot of it.

"OK, lets have a look at that web page. The first thing it says is
"Nothing in this article is intended as medical advice.
No claims, promises nor guarantees are made"
Interesting.

Then "This procedure rapidly eliminates malaria and other infectious agents in only one dose."
That's a claim, so one of the first things it says is a lie. So far, I'm not impressed.

Then it says "Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) is highly reactive with thiols, polyamines, purines, certain amino acids and iron, all of which are necessary for the growth and survival of pathogenic microbes."
Which is true enough. Of course, since all of those things are needed to grow microbes and there are microbes in the gut we have a problem. Any ClO2 in the gut would instantly react with one or more of those compounds- it would never get any further ( it would be destroyed in the mouth if it were there long enough).
Incidentally it also reacts with hydrochloric acid which is also present in the stomach.

Malaria is a relapsing disease- it comes and goes. If you have malaria and take snake oil it will sometimes look as if it has worked. Together with mankind's abillity to believe in what they want to happen, you can see how the section on "discovery" makes sense.

Then there are about 40 references that tell you that malaria is bad and what ClO2 is. Nice comprehesive background but of no real importance.
Looks impressive, buut doesn't actually tell you much, I mean what does "The Three-Electron Bond in Chlorine Dioxide. " have to do with malaria?.

Then there's a section headed "OXIDANTS AS PHYSIOLOGIC AGENTS"
It includes ther rather telling observation that "Some work has been done using dilute solutions of sodium chlorite internally to treat fungal infections, chronic fatigue, and cancer; however, little has been published in that regard". Well, positive results tend to get published so what does that say to you?
Then ther is another batch of only vaguely related references- things like "The Use Of Ozone In Medicine, " and "Decreased level of 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and
alteration of structural integrity in erythrocytes
infected with Plasmodium falciparum in vitro."
I'd love to see why someone thinks the first of those might be relevent to the use of chlorite- it's about an entirely different chemical.
At least the second is about themalaria parasite (Plasmodium falciparum ) but it's a report of someone having measured the effect (in a test tube ( in vitro)) on the levels some rather obscure chemical in red blood cells. That's worthy enough in its way, but it has nothing to do with using chlorite to treat malaria.

There are a few references like this one "Interferon-gamma activates the oxidative killing
of Candida albicans by human granulocytes. " that look like they might be relevent bu,t oxidative killing of freign cells by the body is one of its major defense mechanisms. It uses peroxy compounds- not ClO2.


Then there's a section headed "OXIDES OF CHLORINE AS DISINFECTANTS"
And a whole lot of references saying that chlorine and its oxides are useful disinfectants. There are two things to note here. Firstly none of these refers to malaria or plasmodium- which is a bit of a shame if you are trying to say this stuff killsthem. Secondly it's not news to anyone that strong oxidants kill bacteria etc. When Domestos advertised itself as "Kills all known germs. Dead." they were perfectly correct. (They didn't say that the same claim could be made by any bleach based product- but who can blame them).
Unfortunately you can't drink bleach and expect it to kill harmful bacteria. It's too reactive- all you will do is damage your stomach because the cells of the stomach are just as susceptible to bleach poisoning as the bacteria are.
The same is true of ClO2.

Then there's a section called "MALARIA IS OXIDANT SENSITIVE"
Which is true- so what? too high an oxygen concentration kills people.
Then there's lots of references, but none of them involves ClO2. There's a reason for that. The malaria parasite lives (at least some of the time) inside blood cells. If you add bleach or ClO2 you destroy the cells- so the malaria parasite is now "homeless".Its not a sensible test.

Trawling on there's a section about "TARGETING THIOLS"
Unfortunately,
1
that's what arsenic does- so it's not really a good start and
2
ClO2 dosn't really do it- it's a strong oxidant and atakcs pretty much the first thing it meets.

Again there's a whole lot of references that don't say much.


Then we have "HEME IS AN OXIDANT SENSITIZER"
Now that looks promising. The malaria parasite hangs out in red blood cells and there's a lot of heam in them. If the heam makes the oxidants more effective then it migh likk the bugs.
2 problems- if it makes the stuff more toxic in blood cells them most of what it kills will be blood cells. Not really what you want and also, remember way back at the begining I said that the stuff would be destroyed in the mouth and stomach. Well, just how much is going to get as far as the blood? How about none?
Then there's the usual run of references to make it look scientific.


We then come to "OVERCOMING ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE WITH OXIDATION"
Well, if this stuff kills malaria on its own we don't need to use the antibiotics. It seems they just admitted their claim was false.
Then they list a few pages more references to make it look good.


Then we come to the real killer (literally)
I will quote this in full
"SOME INCOMPATIBILITIES
Acidified sodium chlorite could provide a powerful new opportunity to improve or to restore sensitivity to quinolines by virtue of its oxidative power. However, quinolines contain secondary or tertiary amino groups which react with chlorine dioxide in such a way that both could destroy each other. Some possible strategies to resolve this incompatibility are suggested below.
Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action.
Patients already preloaded with a quinoline could stop this, wait a suitable period of time for this to wash out, then administer the acidified sodium chlorite.
The quinoline could remain in use and while the less active sodium chlorite is administered without acid. This should retain plenty of oxidant effectiveness without destroying any quinoline or wasting too much oxidant.
Switch from a quinoline to an endoperoxide (such as artemisinin) or to a quinone (such as atovaquone) before using acidified sodium chlorite, as these may be less sensitive toward destruction by chlorine dioxide.
Similar problems apply to methylene blue and many other drugs if they have an unoxidized sulfur atom, a phenol group, a secondary amine or a tertiary amine. Such are also very reactive with the chlorine dioxide component. [58a] "


Ok what that says is that the ClO2 reacts with some of the drugs used in (legitimate) treatment of malaria.
What they sugest doing about that is reckless if not criminal.
"Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action. "

They sugest using only this rubbish on its own and, if needs be, withdrawing treatment with an effective drug.

Yes, that's really what it measn
they are saying that you should stop taking drugs thatare known to work to treat malaria and take their impossible remedy instead.

Does anyone care what the particular problems with the rest of their page are?"

Which was it, didn't you read it, or didn't you understand it?

And, re. "This is also no testimonial! "
Actually, that's exactly what it is.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 23/06/2009 21:53:24
"And then you said that, in that post, you had said something else; but you hadn't.
Why did you do that?"


Sorry dude, you lost me here...

"Why did you make up the strawman?"

Do you mean this strawman?

"All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing. That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise)."

That, I'm afraid, was your clever deduction.


"Why the ad hom attacks?"

These are no attacks. You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers. You don't have to feel attacked if some people are not willing to swallow some of those ridiculous comparisons and illogical pathetic deductions.

I don't understand why you feel so obligated to have all the answers. Let us leave it at that though because I also stated (in my first post) that I didn't want to offend anybody with my views and above all Peace...

So to sum things up:


- Nothing personal - just strong disagreement with your arguments.

- I would like to post my own experience. Hey who knows maybe I will fall flat on my face and you can in the end say I told you so...

- I don't have the answers I am still searching

If this thread is the wrong platform for what I am doing then someone other than the Bored chemist (again not personal but I think you may be biased) please tell me so and I will quietly and peacefully leave the scene. [:-\]


Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/06/2009 22:19:08
"Sorry dude, you lost me here..."
Then you should be paying attention.
You said this "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn't continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post."
and it isn't true because you didn't say, in your first post anything of the sort.




I already pointed out what the strawman was.
It was this.
"So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm."

As I pointed out, I didn't say that so, to put this forward as my opinion and then atack it is a strawman argument.

I already asked you not to do it again. Why did you?


As for the ad homs
"These are no attacks. You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers."
The issues I raised that is "You may be a lab assistant " and "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information " were personal.
Since I made it perfectly clear that those were the issues I was refering to it's yet another strawman for you to say "You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers".
Even if you don't think that's personal surely you must understand that describing my obervations as "illogical pathetic deductions" is a personal attack.

I keep asking why you say things that are not true and you simply don't answer.
What does that say about your claim to be objective?

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 24/06/2009 08:11:24
Bored chemist wrote:

“Most potential treatments don't get tested.
As far as I know nobody has ever tested rectally administered fishpaste, for example, as a cure for malaria. Nor has a double blind trial been done on blood letting by a leather clad virgin at the full moon.”



I am sorry but in my book this is just ridiculous and not relevant at all to the topic of discussion.

Bored chemist wrote:

“If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work.”

In my opinion this is an illogical incorrect deduction period.

Bored chemist wrote:

I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect.

This might lead one to believe that you may be a lab assistant. I recall also seeing a picture of you with a lab coat. If this is not the case I apologize for my implication although I did say “you may be a lab assistant”.


This is a quote from my first post:
"I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace..."

In that post I clearly state:
I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views
I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...

Just for you Bored chemist so that you finally understand what I want:
I am new here and do not wish want to offend anyone with my views
I will want to post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
[I want] Peace...
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: stereologist on 24/06/2009 13:41:15
The issue of MMS has been discussed in many forums. The issue boils down to claims being made by the sellers that are not substantiated. Instead the sellers make claims and point to poorly or unrelated information to sell their wares. This matter could be simplified if the proponents of MMS would simply point to a study in which MMS is tested. This would be a properly run study, i.e. statistically valid sample size, double blinded, etc.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 24/06/2009 14:09:14
I want to make it perfectly clear at this point that I am no seller nor am I pushing mms. I will also not try to defend treatment with mms or recommend it to anyone as I  have no basis to do so. On the other hand, I am open for alternative methods of treating hep c and all I can offer is results that may or may not turn out to be very disappointing. But, my experiment is not over yet...
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/06/2009 19:39:09
Best of luck, but remember that a single observation, not even single blinded, isn't worth a lot in science.
A few tests on lab rats would carry a whole lot more weight.
Those tests would be cheap and easy.
As far as I can tell they have not been done.
There is clearly an enormous incentive to do this work. (There's more to life than patent rights the man who finds a cheap cure for malaria is going to be famous and there's also the amazing ability to be smug about it.)

Why hasn't someone made their name by doing this fairly simple test?
Do you accept that one reason- perhaps the simplest reason- is that they tried it, it didn't work and they didn't bother to publish their failure?

Incidentally,
Re. "I recall also seeing a picture of you with a lab coat. "
Where?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 24/06/2009 21:38:22
"Best of luck, but remember that a single observation, not even single blinded, isn't worth a lot in science."
Thank you and I realize this. I am really not trying to achieve anything scientific. It's more to the note of trying to find a cure for myself and logging my experience.

It can work both ways:

Either I am successfull and others may want to take the chance for themselves with all the risks involved.

or

I am not successfull and this fact can help those thinking about trying it to make the correct decision for themselves.

Where?
When I first entered this Forum right before I quoted you for the first time I recall looking at a profile and seeing a person with a white lab coat (For some reason I associated this person with you). I might very well have been looking at someone else as I was not familiar with the names here.


Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: werewolf on 29/06/2009 14:17:53
In reading this discussion, I find it fraught with peculiarly non-scientific emotionalism for a website based upon science. Arguments here seem to be comprised of assumptions. For example, BoredChemist says that one proof that MMS does not work is that, if it did, malaria would have already been eradicated because it would be in widespread usage throughout the world. That presupposes that information flows unhindered by superstition, venal financial interests, political influences, etc., which is obviously not at all true. For example, two Australian doctors determined that ulcers were not caused by stress, but by the bacterium Helicopter Pylori. It took twelve years for that information to reach critical mass in the medical community. That means that for 11 3/4 years, there were doctors still performing surgery on people with ulcers, still handing out the old ulcer remedies from the 1920's, rather than giving an antibiotic to kill the H. Pylori bugs and cure the ulcers. That same effect could be at work regarding MMS.

It has been said here that anecdotal evidence in the form of testimonials should be rejected, and only evidence resulting from proper double-blind clinical studies accepted. In an ideal world that would be true but in this world, research of that caliber is expensive and is usually only initiated by pharmaceutical companies that can profit from the results. Thus there is no financial incentive for testing non-patentable materials. Since that is the case, people searching for answers must use whatever means they can in gleaning information from all of the varied sources --some good, some bad-- out there.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2009 20:12:12
"A few tests on lab rats would carry a whole lot more weight.
Those tests would be cheap and easy.
As far as I can tell they have not been done."
Political and financial interests can work both ways.
The experiments give the real annswer.

H pyloris took a long while to be accepted, but in the end it was (and the matter isn't as clear as you make it look.  The bacterium was found in people who didn't have ulcers so the evidence was that the bug did not (on its own) cause ulcers. The doctors may be conservative, but they are not stupid)

There is good, strong evidence which proves that this magic cure can't be real- it still works after you have destroyed it by reaction with apple juice (specifically with the vitamin C).

Do you understand that?
It's scientific proof that this stuff cannot work as described. The stuff is just a pinch of salt by the time people take it.

Once you add the fact that the purveyors of this quackery are the same ones who tried to fob off HIV/AIDS sufferers with  a toxic industrial solvent (DMF) as a cure I really don't think it would be ethical to sacrifice the rats.

OK, so I do get angry about this sort of thing- not with the people who have posted here, but with the snake oil salesmen- no, better yet, let's call them by the proper name, fraudsters- who try to con people, who are generally poorly placed to afford it, out of their hard earned cash. If that emotion comes through then all I can hope is that you are all reasonably understanding.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 20/07/2009 22:04:28
I just wanted to check back in and say that I am still alive and that I feel great. I am intentionally not mentioning the details of how much mms I am taking nor how often I take it though I am keeping notes. I hope to post the next lab results by mid August.   
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: crm114 on 15/08/2009 14:44:38
Hello Observer,

like you I am looking for non-interferon treatment for HepC and with some degree of scepticism embarked on a course of Sodium Chlorite.
I have been taking this since Jan 2009 with short breaks in between. I can report that my AST, ALT and viral load numbers are dropping
consistently over the last 3 blood tests. Prior to this they had been escalating. I do not have the exact figures to hand as I am working
overseas but shall post them when time allows. May I ask what Genotype you have your viral load and what if any other treatment you have
received ? Not sure if this board allows PM'ing but feel free to do so if you wish, I have some other info on non pharma treatments which
are showing positive results.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Observer on 19/08/2009 13:03:09
Hello CRM114,
it is good to hear from someone else with some positive feedback. At this point little can be said about the effectiveness of our personal mms experiences, nevertheless something is happening and at this point seems to be an overall improvement. When I got my first and second lab test the Genotype /viral load was not included. I will have to ask specifically for these counts prior to the next test. It is unfortunate that I don't have a possibility of comparing the viral load at this point. I just returned from beautiful a Norwegian vacation and have not made my next lab appointment. I will post the next results thereafter. I did drop the frequency to which I was self-administering the mms drastically to avoid a possible imbalance of my oxidant/antioxidant intake.
I found an interesting weblink that may be of general interest:

http://www.gesundheitlicheaufklaerung.de/mms-eine-ganzheitliche-therapie
The report is German but maybe I can find an English translation...



Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 23/08/2009 05:10:56
WOW this thread has gone from great intentions to bitchfest 2009 wtf..
Bored chemist might now his sh1t but is always referencing someone elses work
on the other hand Observer is dooing what i wish everyone would do a bit more (hands on) and in the future
this is exactly what Bored chemist will reference.

so great job Observer and hope you find at least a neutral to a positive result.

after that said . make sure we all wash our hands clean of all the sh1t, after all these public spankings
and get to the point.

results.

edumication : grade 9
occufication : dooer
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/08/2009 10:47:18
I note with mild ammusement that you have chosen to comment on other people's stuff, but not to do any work of your own; a bit like someone who "might know his sh1t but is always referencing someone else's work " .
Meanwhile you commend Observe for valliantly wasting his time in spite of the fact that the "miracle cure" cannot work becaue the "active" ingredient is destroyed too rapidly.

An odd choice for a first post here.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 23/08/2009 16:19:09
sure thing crazy literal robot man.. its a great thing you were not there to tell our grand parrents they couldn't (do that) and who said anything about a cure, i didn't. but for interests of my own , i would like (your) definition of "cure" and also your definition of a "positive result" not a cut and paste from wikipedia.

and like the meds for Gout :
NSAIDS
colchicine
corticosteroids
ACTH
allopurinol
probenecid

these are by no means a "cure" but if they do have a positive affect or an individual acceptable outcome Great
so now the meds i have listed for the treatment of gout. do you consider any of them them the right choice?
and of those do they have a positive results?

FYI i don't believe in "miracle cure" just +pos "or" -NEG results 
and i wish i did more work of my own. and could be anal about it too
Observer, did i waste your time ???  i hope i didnt.
Bored chemist if you have something to say to me say it now ,so we all get back to the true topic

now you made a great comment bored :
("miracle cure" cannot work because the "active" ingredient is destroyed too rapidly)

1) question to you is this: what % is destroyed before the body can absorb the remainder .if only for a Minuit, say if taken orally (keep in mind this has nothing to do with anything else)

2)has naturally occurring ClO2 ever been found in any bloodwork

3)would you admit this magical mystical cureall ClO2 has to have some kind of magical mystical anti bacterial characteristics (say as a mouth wash/rinse)

4) whats your thoughts on ozone floating free in the home?

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/08/2009 20:49:33
Palliative treatment is OK where there is no cure available as with gout but it's the 3rd best option after prevention and cure.
In the case of an acute infection like malaria the definition of a cure is pretty clear- the parasites are dead and the patient isn't. Did you really need me to explain that?

 
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 23/08/2009 22:01:14
yes.
and im still waiting for some answers




edumication : grade 9
occupication : dooer
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: crm114 on 24/08/2009 04:10:03
Hello Observer,

thanks for the link.
It would be interesting to know on what basis the claim is made that the active ingredient only kills "bad" parasites
but regardless of what ever tests have been performed to determine its efficacy, the proof of the pudding is in the
eating, and if it achieves the desired effect without inducing harmful side-effects then that is good enough for me.
Are you actually using the commercial product MMS or are you simply sourcing the chemical and producing your own medication ?
With how much and how frequently are you dosing ?

Although strictly not related to the current topic, the following link may be useful for HepC sufferers. It links to a medical
trial sponsored in part by non other than Roche, which is using IV Silibinin, the active ingredient in Mariendistel which is
well known anecdotaly to have beneficial effects upon liver disorders. If you (or any other interested persons) would like I
can send the trial results in pdf form.

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(08)01412-1/abstract
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: mootieman on 24/08/2009 15:55:59
I read all about MMS with interest! I have been using MMS in Africa for a number of things and while i cant tell you that thousands have been fixed i can tell you that i have used it to help more than 100 people now. It is very effective against Malaria but also as a general Cold and Flu presenter. The product has been so successful for us that we now manufacture it here and have many smaller rural clinics using it to help when people suffer from anything that relates to bacteria. Be warned it taste is terrible and it smells bad, but you can mix it with water to help get it down. It is extremely powerful and too much too fast will make you very sick so treat with care.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: crm114 on 24/08/2009 18:12:30
Hello Mootieman,

Interesting development.
Perhaps you can share with us a few more details of your experiences.
Where are you in Africa and in what capacity do administer MMS, are you working in healthcare ?
Do you keep records of your patients symptoms, treatment regimes and results.
If not, and its not too much trouble perhaps you can consider doing this.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/08/2009 19:52:32
yes.
and im still waiting for some answers





edumication : grade 9
occupication : dooer


Your honesty in admitting to not knowing what "cure " means is remarkable and commendable.
I was in the process of posting a more detailed answer yesterday- but my computer crashed.
Anyway.
I haven't done any experiments on the kinetics of the reaction betwee en chlorite/ClO2 and, for example, ascorbate.
However I can point out the the people who wrote the article cited early on in this thread said that the stuff reacts quickly with things like thiols which are common on the gut.
Since the theory- as put forward- is not internally consistent so it clearly isn't science.
I don't need to do the experiments. They have been done for me. It's just that the people who did them didn't understand what the results meant.

I doubt that anyone has ever looked for ClO2 in blood.
I have an interest in natural products chemistry and I cannot think of a single instance of chlorine in a positive oxidation state anywhere in biology.
Obviously I can't claim to have looked everywhere but since you are the one putting forward the strange idea, it's you who has to prove it.

"would you admit this magical mystical cureall ClO2 has to have some kind of magical mystical anti bacterial characteristics (say as a mouth wash/rinse)"
Since magic doesn't exist the answer has to be no.
It might have a straightforward scientifically reasonable effect as an antibacterial- after all it is toxic so it might kill bugs.
The question of whether or not it kills bugs better than it kills people is another matter.

"whats your thoughts on ozone floating free in the home?"
Who cares?
Anyway, ozone smells and is rather toxic so, in general, this is something to avoid. However, it is a useful oxidant and I sometimes use it (at home). Some of it escapes into the air so I sometimes experience ozone floating round my home.
It doesn't seem to make much odds apart from a funny smell.



Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 25/08/2009 01:48:37
Wow. presumptuous and computer illiterate all in the same sentence. Were you driving when the crash happend??.
to me it sounds like you would rather demean someone than give (helpfull) advice

have you done any testing with CL02 yourself ,i will assume not.
I have done Many tests. and can say with confidence and without fear of someone trying to debunk my credibility (which isn't much)
that there are definitely benefits to an external use of "mms" as antiviral/antibacterial
and Definitely by testing (with myself) no negative results .

but there is still the excess in citric acid/vinegar/volume that some people can have a negative reaction to. (hypersensitive)/allergy.
cl02 itself. is well misunderstood, and with more open research i think it can do great things
here is an idea "time delay capsule intestinal release" or "saline IV low dose" anyone have a labrat to infect and test???? howbout Boredchemist lol jk.
all in good fun.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/08/2009 19:52:40
Great!
Now all you need to do is replace that ad hom attacks with double-blind trials and you will be doing science.

As for "to me it sounds like you would rather demean someone than give (helpfull) advice"
I guess that depends on whether you think the following advice advice is helpful; don't waste your time on stuff that doesn't make any sense and where even the supporters of it say things that show it cannot work.

I also don't think that infecting rats then poisoning them with this stuff would be ethical.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 26/08/2009 01:32:42
we can all do RCT's  Yaaaaaaaaay!
Ethics. i would rather kill a rat for science than go to war.
but cool beans. back to topic
I have requested about some free labwork from a friend in calgary
based on bloodwork taken every 10 minits after dose CLO2 for duration of 60 minits . if show results will post.
full 10 drops twice daily  [xx(]/ Chemical Analysis to come [:P]

Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/08/2009 07:01:12
"Ethics. i would rather kill a rat for science than go to war. "
Me too, but where's the science?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: stereologist on 28/08/2009 01:10:07
Tracar what was your user name before you became a troll?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 28/08/2009 01:25:14
what kind of troll? you are a fable player right?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: stereologist on 28/08/2009 03:08:31
What was your name on this forum before you became a troll?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: tracar on 30/08/2009 02:03:52
possibly a bored chemist.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/10/2009 19:26:17
Sorry for the necromancy but I just found some information about Dr Rath who was cited earlier in this thread as an authority on the matter.
I'm sure that you will make up your own minds about his work.
http://www.generoom.net/features-story.php?id=58
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: StFual on 28/04/2010 16:23:35
Pardon the resurrection, but no one properly answered the question...

Yes, sodium chlorite does have healing "powers".

Consider WF10 and Oxovasin/Oxoferin:

WF10 (IV drug):
Contains the ions chlorite (4.25%), chloride (2.0%), chlorate (1.5%), sulfate (0.7%), and sodium (4.0%).
1 mL of WF10 solution contains 4.25 mg (63 μmol) of the active chlorite ion.

Oxovasin Active ingredient (diluted WF10, applied topically):
Produced from: 10.28mg sodium chlorite, 1.38mg sodium hypochlorite,
0.75mg sulfuric acid 69%, 0.6µg potassium chlorate,
0.37mg sodium carbonate – hydrogen peroxide (2:3),
1.09mg sodium peroxide

WF10 is in in clinical trials:

Development of WF10, a novel macrophage-regulating agent (PMID: 12054081).
Reduced recurrence of late hemorrhagic radiation cystitis by WF10 therapy in cervical cancer patients: a multicenter, randomized, two-arm, open-label trial (PMID: 15542165).
A phase II study to evaluate WF10 in patients with late hemorrhagic radiation cystitis and proctitis (PMID: 16169580)


With regard to oral chlorite, there is a gang of animal data in the ATSDR's Tox profile of Chlorine Dioxide and Chlorite.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp160-c3.pdf (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp160-c3.pdf)

Limited information is available regarding health effects in humans following exposure to chlorine dioxide or chlorite (ATSDR link, p.55).  There is ONE cited case of someone eating 10 grams in an attempted suicide.

In animals, a variety of gastrointestinal infections can be controlled with "acidified sodium chlorite"; e.g. Salmonella and Campylobacter in chickens (PMID: 17169454, PMID: 12696692).  They also spray this stuff on a variety of meats to kill pathogens.

This whole Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) is fishy, in that WF10 is given IV.  If sodium chlorite was very active at a systemic level as an oral formulation, then this would be a clinical application.   I am very skeptical of any use for sodium chlorite outside of topical and GI infections, unless it is given IV.

Carry on or SHOW ME THE DATA....











Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2010 19:32:18
Interesting but unfortunately, apart from the website you cited which confirms these things are toxic I can't see any of the data. "PMID: 15542165" doesn't mean a lot to me because I can only see the abstract.
I'm inclined to wonder about this.
Did someone really do a trial and only look at "occurrence of late hemorrhagic radiation cystitis in cervical cancer patients"?

Or did they do the study, look at lots of outcomes and find the one that (by a fluke) is statistically significant?
Never forget that "at the 95% confidence level" means  that you get the wrong answer one time in 20; if you look at 20 things you have a good chance of getting one answer that's wrong.

It's also noteworthy that neither of the materials cited is a pure chemical.
If I did an experiment with eye of newt and aspirin as a cure for headaches and found it to work, would I be justified in saying the eye of newt worked?

There's one bit of your post I have to agree with; SHOW ME THE DATA.

By the way, if this therapy does work for this particular condition then that's nice to know. The original claims were that it cured things like malaria. No evidence has been put forward to support that.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: StFual on 30/04/2010 17:53:03
I referenced peer-reviewed scientific articles. Please gain access (via a library) to the data BEFORE you draw conclusions. You have insulted the scientists, clinicians, and editors that took the time to write, review, and publish an experiment before you have even read it?  Claiming they as a group do not understand multiple comparison testing would indicate they are either too ignorant to perform a study or are unethical in their reporting.  That is just part of the issue, also note, the studies I referenced have been reviewed and replicated by different groups. 

I thought the questions were "Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?"  and "what it does do" and "disseminate some of the information about it".

Note that I have not found one clinical or scientific article supporting chlorate, chlorite, or tetrachlorodecaoxygen (oxd-chlorite) usage for treating maleria, multiple sclerosis, ALS, chronic fatigue, or fibromyalgia. 

In cases where something like MS or Chronic Fatigue was caused by a microbe, the concept is reduction of chlorate to chlorite ion by the pathogen COULD cause oxidative damage to the pathogen in the process (PMID: 19824635).  This is still CONCEPT, hence the patent.  There is no scientific studies/data to support the claims of the patent or use of MMS to treat such conditions.

However, back to the REAL question: Yes, sodium chlorite does promote healing.

I will not digress into formulation chemistry, but I assume you are well aware that active compounds are typically formulated before they are tested clinically.  The chemist that produced the clinical formulation indicate "Sodium chlorite (NaClO2, 15 mM) is equivalent to undiluted Oxoferin." and "Our data indicate that Oxoferin may be equated essentially with aqueous sodium chlorite." (PMID: 2921839).   Again, scientific peer-reviewed data.  I would pull the article to also review that data, but I do not read German.

Got data?  They do, I do, do you?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/05/2010 13:14:20
Citing a reference is not the same as showing the data.
Also, I didn't draw a conclusion, I asked a few questions.
Would you care to answer some of them?
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: StFual on 04/05/2010 18:37:35
The study design you questioned was indicated in the title (...a multicenter, randomized, two-arm, open-label trial).  IF a study uses multiple comparisons and does not indicate or correct for it, it would be outright uneducated or unethical. 

When testing a null hypothesis, note that the probability (p-vale) of obtaining a result also indicates the probability of false-positives, but does not indicate if a result is a fluke or if a result is correct or incorrect.

Here are "free" scientific studies (i.e. no library card required) to further support my conclusion:

Application of Acidified Sodium Chlorite in the Drinking Water to Control Salmonella serotype Typhimurium and Campylobacter jejuni in Commercial Broilers(http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45 (http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45)).  Actual data from this study showing decrease in Salmonella  and Campylobacter (http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45/T2 (http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45/T2), http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45/T3 (http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/1/45/T3)).  Yes, I realize that this is in chickens...

Development of WF10, a novel macrophage-regulating agent (http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:GsxrxFnDjPYJ:scholar.google.com/+Oxoferin&hl=en&num=50&as_sdt=10000000000000 (http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:GsxrxFnDjPYJ:scholar.google.com/+Oxoferin&hl=en&num=50&as_sdt=10000000000000)).  A study of AIDs patients and the impact of chlorite on T-cells.  Google has a problem with the *.pdf conversion.  If you want the tables, get the *.pdf.  I will not post it due to copyright.

Reduced Incidence and Severity of Acute Radiation Mucositis by WF10 (IMMUNOKINE) as Adjunct to Standard of Cure in the Management of Head & Neck Cancer Patients (http://www.mat.or.th/journal/files/Vol90_No.8_1590_9639.pdf (http://www.mat.or.th/journal/files/Vol90_No.8_1590_9639.pdf)).  It appears to reduce inflammation associated with cancers therapies.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Farmer on 28/08/2010 05:47:32
Hello all... I'm new here, but caught this thread about the Sodium Chlorite or MMS by Jim Humble.. 
 I'm not rich in the brain department like so many of you here, but I can tell you straight about my experience with taking the MMS.. 
 It started about 2 years ago..I fell very ill and ended up in a wheel chair because I was so weak that I just couldn't get around, the doctors told me that I had end stage HCV with chronic kidney failure and Asides due to a blockage in my portal vein.. They basically told me that I had 6 months or less to live and to go home and be with family and friends as they could do nothing for my terminal disease and condition...
 I'm thankful that my wife got some info over the inter net, and soon I was taking the MMS, it took me about a week to work up to 5 drop doses, but from that point I started taking it once an hour for 8 hrs a day...3 months later I was jogging around the block with my dog...
  Now that's not bad for an ole' man like myself, I am still thanking the Lord for leading me to this simple chemical solution...
  I am not totally renewed...as I still have to take diuretics and I still take MMS every week now..but I appear quite normal and am quit active...
  I don't know about all the chem. talk of this or that...but for what it's worth... I'd simply say that if you are down to facing deaths door... you won't be disappointed with what MMS does...
  I do know, that if someone is not sick or have any real illness,that they can take MMS and it does not do anything... but to others that has ill health issues, it is truly a miracle to what it does.. 
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: gratefulme on 01/09/2010 00:33:09
Hello all, I'm a user of MMS, here's my story: Several years ago, I was diagnosed with IBS (irritable bowel syndrome). Within a year of receiving that diagnosis, I was experiencing chronic vomiting, horrible diarrhea, terrible depression, etc. from constantly being ill. As my health continued to deteriorate I went down the long path of trying to identify the foods to eat/not eat, what to drink/not drink, what medicines to take/not take, while continuously undergoing several doctor-ordered tests, all to no avail.
 
After five long years of dealing with IBS, I started to experience other health problems with almost every organ and tissue in my body. I was then diagnosed with Grave’s disease, with T3 & T4 levels at triple the normal levels. As I slowly battled these additional health problems, I continued to search for the reasons behind them, not wanting to take medication for a 'no-cure disease' for the rest of my life. As Grave’s is an autoimmune disorder, my research led me to look for something natural to boost the immune system, which eventually led me to MMS.
 
It seemed safe enough to try, but I thought I would just test it in the tub water first. I have had athlete's foot for about 30 years, on both feet, and after only one soaking, I noticed a difference, it had cleared up some. So I repeated the soaking a few days later, and it cleared up some more. And shortly after that, it disappeared completely! Not only that, it has not returned – it’s actually gone!

More research convinced me to give it a try internally, and I decided to detox the metals and pathogens out first. I went through the cleansing process as far as I could, for two days, with the usual diarrhea, pain, nausea, etc. that I had experienced daily from my IBS.  On the third day, I had severe diarrhea, and stopped the detox.

Once my system settled back down, I underwent the process again, and this time I stayed on it for several days, with no additional problems. My mornings slowly improved as my stomach and bowels began to return to normal, and I began to eat whatever I wanted, with no side effects! Much to my joy, each and every day my health improved!

A month later, I was scheduled for blood work, and a visit to see the doctor again for my Graves disease, and upon arriving I was pleased to hear that my T3 & T4 counts were now nearly at ‘perfect’ levels! My good health has continued to remain constant, those counts have remained at/near perfection ever since, and my intake of the drug prescribed by my specialist has now been reduced to only one half of the smallest dose available! My disease is finally under control!

On another issue, I am also happy to say that the day I started MMS, my 'annual cold sore' began to swell under my lip. As I went through two days of detox at that time, it seems to have driven that virus/pathogen from my body as well, as that cold sore never did break the surface -- and there has been no sight of it ever since!

I now take MMS at least twice a week, or more if my Grave’s issues act up, and I can honestly say I haven't felt this well in years! I am mobile again, I am sleeping again, and I am eating again! Most importantly, I am also pain free! I have not had any issues with my IBS since I began this product, I have not thrown up since undergoing the first cleansing process, & I have not had any additional health concerns or problems, My continued good health is all the proof I need!

And now, after such great health improvements through using this product, can you imagine my disappointment when I read the recall issued by Health Canada, telling me to return it! For ten years I did what all the doctors told me to do, and more, but continued to only get sicker, and continued to develop even more health issues. And now, after having found something that controls the suffering I previously went through, I am being told to throw it away!

I cannot tell you how much this product has done for me; just know that I am thrilled to have it. After a decade of daily illness, and now almost a full year of good health, it has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to work for me.

There are times I forget to take it, and my Grave’s begins to act up again, but just one or two doses bring everything back to normal again. I know that I need to continue taking this product in order to control my health, and am willing to fight strongly against this recall. I want legal access to this product for my own medical use. To remove MMS from the market infringes on my rights, and also leaves me open and vulnerable to more health problems. I have an autoimmune disease, and this recall denies me the right to use a product that has already proven to work better for me than anything else available!

The recall appears to be ignoring the obvious success of this product. There are thousands of users who, like me, searched out their own health care when our own doctors and scientists failed us, and found our own answers! The disappearance of both my herpes virus and my athlete's foot is just one of the testimonies of it's power, and one that the entire medical establishment haven't even offered to sufferers of either affliction -- they'd rather send us home with expensive creams & ointments that don't really work, & ignore it (hint: there's no money in MMS!)

We must not loose the right to choose what we want to put into our own bodies, especially when that choice has already proven to aid in the healing processes. We all deserve the right to choose, and I choose MMS & good health over what I went through ANY DAY!
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/09/2010 20:20:07
Just remember; the plural of anecdote is not evidence.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Lor on 05/09/2010 05:50:57
my mother caught head lice as a child(circa 1940) and had her hair washed with kerosene  by her mom.yes it killed the lice, would you do that today? nooo.
I'm with Bored Scientist- ive read this thread and trust in his responses.
theres a BIG difference between homeopathic treatments and snake oil salesman.I believe in natural cures that are relatively safe but will not use or take anything new and unproven-new drugs from drug companies included.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/09/2010 11:09:44
"theres a BIG difference between homeopathic treatments and snake oil salesman."
Really?
What is it?
Snake oil doesn't work, and nor does homoeopathy.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Lor on 05/09/2010 12:03:30
I'm not sure why you're debating what i said since i agree with your basic view on that malaria cure. Hhomeopathy and snake oil salesman arent necessarily  mutually exclusive.There are many homeopathic/natural/herbal remedies that have much merit. a snakeoil salesman sells things with unwarranted medicinal claims;deceiving practices,for ailments it has absolutely no  positive effect on. in the past, 1800's for instance cocaine,morphine and alcohol sold in all sorts of medicinal concoctions with wild unasserted claims.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: BenV on 05/09/2010 15:32:16
...There are many homeopathic/natural/herbal remedies that have much merit...
No, there are natural and herbal rememdies that have much merit - don't fall into the trap of including homeopathy in with them.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: rosy on 05/09/2010 17:16:51
For anyone who thinks (as many do) that "homeopathic" is a synonym for "herbal", see the wikipedia article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#High_dilutions
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/09/2010 19:02:41
Jazzderry,
let's be quite clear about this .
Not only does homoeopathy not work, but there is no way in which it could work.
There's just nothing there in homoeopathy "remedies". The "active" ingredient was diluted out of existence.

The chlorite stuff is bollocks, but at least they are claiming that "some stuff has an effect" rather than "stuff that's not there any more has an effect".

Homoeopathy should only turn up on scientific website when we are making jokes.

http://xkcd.com/765/
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: JAB on 10/09/2010 05:18:47
Does the sodium chorite solution have healing powers?  Yes, it does, plain and simple.  Is it the miracle cure for malaria, cancer, AIDS, Hep c, etc. I don't know.  That has yet to be determined.  There are people out there who claim to have been desperate enough to try it and claim it worked for them. I am happy for them.  I guess it's possible that all those thousands of positive posts I have read over the years could have been fabricated by liars. Just "bored" people with nothing better to do. 
  I have found it works well on athletes foot and other rashes quite well.  I brush my teeth with it weekly and my dentist scratches his head every six months.  I had an opportunity to test it against over the counter products on two identical burns.  The sodium chlorite  treated burn never blistered and was healed in less than half the time as the other.  That's my experience.  I will keep a bottle of the stuff around as long as it works for me.  It is being studied and I believe in time it will become more accepted.  Here is a study where it was used with some success on dogs.
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=141749&pageID=1&sk=&date=
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/09/2010 07:23:13
The stuff will act as a simple disinfectant. Treating surface infections is one thing; treating systemic infections is another matter.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Farmer on 03/10/2010 06:53:19
As I said above, I'm not overly bright, so I hope that you guys will know what I am trying to say, even though I explain things poorly at times..
 Another treatment that I am doing is the ozone IV's with the Sodium Chloride in the Saline solution that I use.  I think this is the same stuff that is used in MMS, not sure, but if so, then it's used for more things that just cleaning floors.
 Another thing that I caught above, is the deal about homopathy, [I should get a dictionary to look the meaning of that up, but it sounds like someone that stays at home or something...
 There's more to "Snakeoil" than just the salesmen who sells it... No jokeing, There are certain plants that has been used for hundreds of years by witch doctors, sharmans etc. in jungles, countries where they don't have local doctor offices to visit,
  These Witch doctors take care of all the health issued with their Tribes and over the generations passed down their treatments and cures..
 This is a matter of history of distant cultures, backwoods or jungle tribes.
 The Jungles has some pretty poisonous snakes, and one of the witch doctors "cures" for deadly snake bites in the Amazon's is a herb called "Jergon Sacha" which not only effectively stops the poison but helps to counter-act the swelling from the bite area.  Powerful stuff, so I've read...
  I did a lot of reading up on this not to long ago, and the more modern research that has been done on this herb, it contains over a hundred other chemicals within it, but it's been proven to stop the protease actions of the HIV and HCV and HBV. [viruses]
 Now those Witch doctors don't have labs etc..
 "Plants" [herbs] has a low line of intelligence about them, they grow and evolve with their own chemistry or chemical make up,
 ~I say "evolve" because some plants actually will change their chemistry if the climate or whatever brings around a new predator, like inscects, snakes etc. that attacks the plants..
[thus you find different species of the same plant in different areas],
~ they build in their own defenses with chemistry to ward off their local predators...  So it's easy enough to understand why a Witch doctor who wants to find a remedy for a poison snake bite, would find it within the same local area where the snake in question lives.. given a little trial and error... and bingo...a treatment.
 I read my eye balls sore for hours day in day out for awhile trying to find a cure for my disease with about every kind of herb that you can think about, and have probably taken a couple truck loads of herbs fighting the virus for awhile...but nothing overpowered the virus with herbs... not even Jergon Sacha... 
 Maybe those Witch doctors has an art to it, or perhaps they use the fresh plants whereas dried herbs won't work as well...don't know..
 This is my experience with "herbs"...they are helpful in many ways, but with major diseases.. it takes something stronger in my opinion.
 
 I use Sodium Chorite to make my own M.M.S. and if taken with the right doses, it does kill the pathogens in the blood the same as it does in water purification of pathogens, bacteria etc..
 It is a strong Oxidant... and this is where someone can get into trouble is they try hammer away too hard at fighting a disease without taking the time to "Protect" their body with Antioxidants in between daily dosing with MMS.  [been there done that too]
 There should be at least 2 to 4 hours separation between taking oxidants and antioxidants. 
 Taking too much oxidants opens a can of worms with free radicals, and if continued it can cause free radical damage. So~ though it is an excellent means to treat with, and to stimulate the immune responses, it is not a stand alone treatment protocol..
 
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: RD on 03/10/2010 21:36:17
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm228052.htm
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: BenV on 25/10/2010 20:02:33
Another thing that I caught above, is the deal about homopathy, [I should get a dictionary to look the meaning of that up, but it sounds like someone that stays at home or something...
 There's more to "Snakeoil" than just the salesmen who sells it... No jokeing, There are certain plants that has been used for hundreds of years by witch doctors, sharmans etc. in jungles, countries where they don't have local doctor offices to visit,
  These Witch doctors take care of all the health issued with their Tribes and over the generations passed down their treatments and cures..
 This is a matter of history of distant cultures, backwoods or jungle tribes.

No no no no no no no! Again - homeopathy has nothing to do with herbal cures, plant extracts or anything that could remotely help.  Homeopaths do very well out of people lumping homeopathy (water or sugar pills) in with herbal remedies (which may well have beneficial active ingredients).
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: maffsolo on 25/10/2010 23:29:10
...There are many homeopathic/natural/herbal remedies that have much merit...
No, there are natural and herbal rememdies that have much merit - don't fall into the trap of including homeopathy in with them.

I am constipated is there an herbal remedies for that?  [::)]

Oh there's my seat right ther in the corner.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2010 19:30:31
"I am constipated is there an herbal remedies for that?"
Yes,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senna_(genus)
But I don't recommend it.
Title: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: dia_na on 15/07/2011 16:35:02
I have read most of this topic and want to read of your opinion today on sodium chlorite. Theres is an active Phase2 study known as NP001 with a pharm named Neuraltus Pharmaceuticals of Palo Alto, Calif. This drug is being tested for use in patients with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. In this phase2 study the patients who appear to be getting the real deal are showing tremendous results, its being given intravenously. Back when the asnea water came about and the mss stuff, I spoke to people who felt better taking it via mouth however I believe it was short lived. I don't think the results stayed and I question the cumulative affect of getting it intravenous, if it will stay in the system, and for how long? And if its going to require ongoing therapy and whats the results of putting chlorine in your veins indefinitely.  My mom has ALS and this is the closest they have come to an effective treatment. Just wondering your thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: judgemental on 07/01/2012 06:26:27
It doesn't work.
Pity.

Pity you haven't actually tried it or you would not have posted this comment. So how do you profit from its suppression?

PLEASE READ THE AUP BEFORE YOU POST ANYTHING ELSE

YOU'LL FIND IT HERE  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=8535.0 (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=8535.0)

THANKS - MOD
Title: Re: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: judgemental on 07/01/2012 08:27:16
Also that "Humble" bloke doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Here are a couple of quotes
"resultant solution is always mixed into a glass of water or apple juice and taken orally"
"Significant amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point in the mixtures or else this will quench the chlorine dioxide (ClO2).
Now, since there's vitamin C in apple juice...

Significant amounts  of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point

He didn't say No vitamin C he said Significant amounts . Since activating with citric acid continues to produce sodium chloride for the next 45 minutes to an hour. small amounts wont have a significant effect on its ability to kill pathogens and bacteria and virus's.....just might slow it down but not completely render it useless. Pay attention to what your reading so that you dont do to yourself what you are attempting to do to Mr Humble. and that is lose all credibility in your OPINIONS. Resarch the use of this product for other ailments besides Malaria. Why are you so hung up on its effect on Malaria. Are other ailments insignificant and unworthy of a better cheaper cure just because you find flaws in its treatment of ONE specific ailment? Or do you have other motives for your BIASED and flawed conclusions regarding chlorine dioxide? And are resulting in your pack animal instinct to attack the weakest link because you realize to attack it head on would be suicide and you would be crushed? Im positive your not motivated out of your desire to help people because if you were you would put a little more effort into your research and be adament about the facts that it produced, regardless of who's side they benefit.Your rush to judgements complete with as many errors as you claim Jim Humbles has, makes your motivation for doing so completely see-through and also renders your credibility non-existent at best. So again my curiosity compells me to ask the origin of your motivation for attempting to villianize a product and the person attatched to that product when the facts clearly show the benefits this produces are off the charts and the harmfull effects of this product are NOT less than off the charts....they are NON-EXISTENT. This product has been  proven to be almost impossible to harm you. Unless of course a few grains of table salt are harmfull to you.Is money more important to you than seeing a person healed of an affliction that prescription drugs has, so far, only managed to mask the affliction while producing bonus NEW afflictions in your body in its attempt to "Manage" the first affliction thus resulting in you having to take yet another prescription to deal with the new affliction that the first prescription was attempting to "Manage". etc etc...You see why the pharmacuticle industry is scared to death of this product. It eliminates BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars no longer spent on the never ending prescription drugs that have been engineered and designed to be a never ending source of income for those "Legal" drug dealers.

While we are at it,
"For the same reason antioxidant supplements should not be taken on the day of treatment. "
Now, in the real world it's not just suplements that contain anti oxidants. Food does too.
How come the people taking this stuff are not advised to avioid foods with antioxidants in them? (and BTW, that's a lot of foods you would need to "restrict".
Unless the people involved in the trial happened not to eat any fresh fruit or veg they would kill this "medicine".
Were they all living on meat pies?
[/quote]

AGAIN, its Significant amounts he is advising people to refrain from. There is a middle ground in every situation in life and anybody with any common sense regardless of medical training, knows that avoiding anything entirely is not only unhealthy but more than likely impossible.So with that in mind as a GIVEN, the intelligent person understands that the term "Significant amounts " means to avoid taking supplements with antioxidants directly and in raw form because that would fall into the category of "Significant amounts " .Enough to outlast the continued reproduction of chlorine dioxide the the 28% solution produces during each dose. So having small amounts in the system such as the small amounts apple juices produce and the even smaller amounts that NATURAL apple juice produces is not enough to completely render the Chlorine dioxide useless.
here is a quote from a website explaining a little bit about this particular subject:

http://www.cancertutor.com/AIDS/Chlorine_AIDS.html (http://www.cancertutor.com/AIDS/Chlorine_AIDS.html)

READ every word on the label of any apple juice or grape juice you buy. Make sure it does not have any ADDED Vitamin C (i.e. any added "ascorbic acid").

This gets complicated, so pay close attention. ALL apple juice and purple grape juice have vitamin C naturally. Thus, if you look at the list of vitamins it will probably list vitamin C.

That is fine if vitamin C is listed in the vitamins. HOWEVER, it is NOT FINE if vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is ADDED as a preservative.

Thus, you MUST MAKE SURE that all vitamin C in the drink is naturally in the juice, and that NO Vitamin C (i.e. ascorbic acid) has been ADDED to the juice.

Some people are so afraid of Vitamin C being added to their apple juice or grape juice that they simply use distilled water to dilute the chlorine dioxide. Distilled water is perfectly fine to dilute the new batch of chlorine dioxide.
Title: Re: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
Post by: Geezer on 07/01/2012 08:36:47
OK Judgemental - You've violated the AUP in your first two posts. This thread is locked, and you are banned.