# Naked Science Forum

## Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2008 19:40:00

Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2008 19:40:00
Another thought experiment,

The task is to send a message to a planet 100 light years from earth and another 200 light from earth. They are separated from each other by 300 light years. They must receive the message at exactly the same moment and perform an identical action to save the universe from destruction. The light speed constant of 300 000 kilometers applies. They both are at the same level of civilization and the task is to get a person from each planet to shine a torch at the sky at the exact same moment to avoid the catastrophic end of the universe.

The task is to get beings on these planets 300 light years apart to flash a laser beam at the exact same moment in time. Then send a laser beam towards a nearby energy source some 3 light years from the planet 200 light years from earth...

Assume they are aware of each other due to astronomy and often have observed each other through their respective telescopes. Of course, I do not mean they could each see the others laser light flash. Just that as they look thought their telescope they know the other was performing the exact same action at the exact same time to save the universe. Their knowing would seem to have overcome the information barrier.

Thus, we would have appeared to short circut the barrier of information restriction to light speed relative to one another. They would know exactly what the other party was doing at the exact same moment, although separated by 300 light years.

This would create a knowledge transfer of the others action at the exact same moment apparently overcoming the information barrier,

When we transmit the message to each planet the universe has only 205 years left before destruction and the only option we have on earth is to get the extremely remote planets to do our will.

Alan

Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: ukmicky on 27/06/2008 21:42:38
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Assume they are aware of each other due to astronomy and often have observed each other through their respective telescopes. Of course, I do not mean they could each see the others laser light flash. Just that as they look thought their telescope they know the other was performing the exact same action at the exact same time to save the universe. Their knowing would seem to have overcome the information barrier.

But i dont get it, how can they could both perform the same action at the same time and have knowledge of it when it would take 300 years for them to view any action either planet took.

Also time is relative so none of the parties would have identical time measurements. And how does what you have explained caused the exchange of information faster than the speed of light.

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Can we overcome the light speed information transfer barrier?
No
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 27/06/2008 21:56:11
I'm with Mucky on this 1.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: JP on 27/06/2008 22:00:49
Alan,

I don't know your reasoning for saying why we've overcome the light speed information barrier in this case?  Is it because when we see the universe hasn't been destroyed, we instantly know the other planet performed the same action?  If so, the problem is that any destruction mechanism in the universe is also constrained to move at light speed.  So we won't know for 300 years whether the other planet obeyed our request or not.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2008 22:58:10
Hi,
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But i don't get it, how can they could both perform the same action at the same time and have knowledge of it when it would take 300 years for them to view any action either planet took

They don't view what the other is doing, but they know what the other is doing at the exact same moment in time, although they are separated by 300 light years. There is no transfer of information between them just knowledge or information from earth. They each only receive information from us on earth. The light speed barrier is uneffected.

Think again!

The thought experiment is true!
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 28/06/2008 01:46:32
What?? I don't see how the light speed barrier is overcome at all. You said yourself there is no transfer of information.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2008 06:48:52
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What?? I don't see how the light speed barrier is overcome at all. You said yourself there is no transfer of information
.

Of course the light barrier can not be overcome, but just by adjusting when the messages are sent from earth we can inform both planets at the same moment what we want them to do.

Bring this little exercise down to earth level during the sailing ship epoc. The task is to get someone in London and another person located in Sydney to perform the same act at the exact same GMT. It takes 100 days to travel from Capetown to London and 200 days to get to Sydney. So we send our message toward Sydney and wait hundred days and then send the message toward London. London and Sydney are separated by 300 days!!

Thus they receive the same message at the exact same time, even though the fastest mode of information transfer is by Sailing ship.

London and Sydney although 300 days apart know what the other is doing at the exact same moment. Knowledge is shared between the two cities , but not direct information like a letter.

The sialing ship speed contraint is not broken, just like the light barrier is not in my little easy mind game.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 28/06/2008 08:26:08
But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2008 09:16:05

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But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act

You are correct, but Capetown (Earth) will know due to the fact (planets original scenario) as they will see the universe begin to destruct, due to inactivity on the part of the remote planets
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 28/06/2008 09:19:46

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But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act

You are correct, but Capetown (Earth) will know due to the fact (planets original scenario) as they will see the universe begin to destruct, due to inactivity on the part of the remote planets

Not until the light from the event has reached them.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2008 09:27:09
In addition after 203 years in the original experiment when the universe continues on as before, without going into destruction mode, all three planets will no longer have to assume anything, they will know in time that that the message was successful or a failure.

The nearer planet would have to wait 153 years and the further planet 53 years to assures themselves of the success of the time experiment. The problem is not really a problem at all, it is just all about sequencing and synchronising time within the constrains of the time information/barriers.

I forgot to add that the supposed end of the universe would start with our own sun, so we on earth would know the experiment failed 203 years and 8 minutes after sending the messages. If it was successful we would be able to breath again say 203 years and 10 minutes as we would know by then our sun is safe.

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Not until the light from the event has reached them

Forgetting to add that it is our star that is going to go supernova and cause the end of the universe is an unforgivable oversight very sorry.

I forgot to add that the supposed end of the universe would start with our own sun, so we on earth would know the experiment failed 203 years and 8 minutes after sending the messages.If it were successful we would be able to breath again say 203 years and 10 minutes as we would know by then our sun is safe.

One could use this concept in a different way.

Little silly I know, but maybe also a little bit of fun.

A simple problem set up in a complex way to confuse. Not that I think you guys were confused but try it out on the average guy who knows little about vast distances or astronomy and they nearly always back off stating it is beyond their comprehension

Regards

Alan
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 29/06/2008 01:58:24
Its just deductive reasoning, not information transfer
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 29/06/2008 07:10:35

Th
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e task is to send a message to a planet 100 light years from earth and another 200 light from earth. They are separated from each other by 300 light years. They must receive the message at exactly the same moment and perform an identical action to save the universe from destruction. The light speed constant of 300 000 kilometers applies.

The message is first sent to the futher planet 200 light years from earth, and we wait 100 years exactly and then only send the next message to the nearer planet 100 light years from earth. So they receive the messge at the exact same time and become aware of each other and what each are meant to do.

We do this to get them both to act in concert and synchronise the action we want them both to do, although they are separated by 300 light years. The message includes everything they must both do, such as being aware of the others action and the fact that earth/universe will destruct if they do not perform exactly as asked by earth.

Planet 200 light years and planet 100n years from earth performs their actions as planned and both have to wait to see if they have prevented earth from going supernova and saving the universe. This awarenes of the others actions at the exact same moment is information transfer not just deduction as you suggest.

We on earth 200 light years distant from the futher planet know after 200 years that the message experiment was successful, the sun does not explode.

The other two planets will have to wait 100 and 200 light years or years to watch and observe if earth goes nova or not.

If this is not information transfer and do not know what is.

To dismiss the whole thought experiment  as deductive reasoning is somewhat unkind.

Alan[/color]
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 29/06/2008 10:01:13
It's not an awareness of the others actions though, they would be assuming the others actions. Like I said before the whole planet could be gone before the message arrives, Earth or the other planet does not know that the other planet is synchronising their effort, they hope.

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The other two planets will have to wait 100 and 200 light years or years to watch and observe if earth goes nova or not.

If this is not information transfer and do not know what is.

Yes, that is information transfer, but is obviously not faster than light.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 30/06/2008 07:35:39
Awareness faster than light and time is not contrained by light so the whole universe will carry on the  moment in time the test proves successful or the whole universe will begin to begin to destruct is they do not obey.

Earth will know that moment and the others will have to wait for light to tell them Earths sun has gone nova.

You are absolutely correct as far as present knowledge goes there is no way around the light speed barrier.

But could there not be a sort GMT for the universe UMT,

and due to different mass of world clocks adjusted minutely for slower or faster time on each particular world
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 30/06/2008 08:01:00
Whether the far planet decides to do it or not, if they sent a signal to the other planets instantly saying yes or no, they would know of its intentions just as fast or faster than they would otherwise be able to figure out through deductive reasoning anyway.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 30/06/2008 08:37:39

A little off topic I have two brothers in AUSIE, one in Sydney the other in Brisbane,

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Whether the far planet decides to do it or not, if they sent a signal to the other planets instantly saying yes or no, they would know of its intentions just as fast or faster than they would otherwise be able to figure out through deductive reasoning anyway.

Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Soul Surfer on 30/06/2008 09:58:18
For the original thought experiment to be valid you have to have a method of instantaneously "destroying" the universe at all places simultaneously.  Such a process is impossible.

THe thought experiment is therefore an invalid thought experiment.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 30/06/2008 12:59:07
SS

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For the original thought experiment to be valid you have to have a method of instantaneously "destroying" the universe at all places simultaneously.  Such a process is impossible.

The thought experiment is therefore an invalid thought experiment.

According to you it is invalid not me.I never stated that the whole universe would end in one moment. But how can you say it is impossible. There might be realities outside your understanding.

I also said the so-called destruction would start with earths sun going supernova.

How about a thought where you ride on a beam of light. Would this also be invalid. Well Einstein "thought" this impossible invalid thought experiment and it resulted in the theory of relativity. E=MC(2)

Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 30/06/2008 14:52:55
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg339.imageshack.us%2Fimg339%2F3828%2Fridiculousju6.jpg&hash=790451473de9517019684506beb418b1)

This is how i'm visualising the scenario. Is this what you mean or not
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 30/06/2008 16:05:18

That picture sums it up "A picture paints a thousand words'

Thank you. Can you teach this old guys how you do this via pm

Earth in the middle first sends message to planet C 200 light years away. Then earth waits 100 years and sends exact message to planet A . So both receive message at the exact same moment. The message contains a lot of detailed info, including the fact that both who are now "synchronised" in time, know they must perform the same action at the exact same moment.

Thus although separated 300 light years they know what the other is doing as the message has resulted in them working in concert, harmony and synchronised. Awareness not info accross 300c

Assuming the universe could do the impossible and destroy itself in one huge implosion. All three planets would know or not know the success or failure of the urgent message in one blinding flash, 203 years and 8 minutes after the first message to planet A.

Planet C has lazered the correct source. We knew on earth planet B, that the our universe or our sun would go nova or destruct after 203 light years and 8 minutes.

In the detailed message planet A is also instructed to carry out an act, say also blasting some energy source also 3 light ears from it. It is important that earth planet has send both messages at the exact precise time.it is beyond vital that both planet A and C must act in the same moment!!

So we on earth would know 203 years or years and 8 minutes after sending the first message to C, that we are going to live or die.

Planet C will of course also have to wait 203 years and 8 minutes to see if the carried out the actions correctly.

Planet A would can observe earth B knowing C was 300 light years away from C them and deduct that they would not know until

203 years and 8 minutes have past, if there was success or failure.

So what has all this painful apparently convoluted thought experiment achieved?

1) Although separated by unbelievable distance the earth/universe has been saved within the contrains of light the
barrier

2) Planets A and C although separated by 300 light years knew what the other at the exact same moment

3) Astronomers on earth who found out (somehow) that the earth/universe would destruct in 203 years and 9 minutes unless planet A and C performed what the message requested exactly.

The vigilance of earths astronomers has saved A, B C and indeed the universe.

If you guys were faced with the same problem , how would you go about solving it

Regards

Alan

Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: JP on 30/06/2008 17:28:23
Assuming the universe could do the impossible and destroy itself in one huge implosion. All three planets would know or not know the success or failure of the urgent message in one blinding flash, 203 years and 8 minutes after the first message to planet A.

But the universe can't do the impossible, so the Earth will have to wait approximately 200 light years to find out of things went off according to plan.

I think your point is that we can "synchronize" two different planets with us.  This is true, but we can only assume everything worked out how it was supposed to.  We won't know until we actually get information, which happens at the speed of light.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 30/06/2008 20:59:40
jpet,

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I think your point is that we can "synchronize" two different planets with us.  This is true, but we can only assume everything worked out how it was supposed to.  We won't know until we actually get information, which happens at the speed of light

There are no assumptions,they now they have to wait 203 years 8/9 minutes then they will know the success of failure. They have to assume nothing, each planet must wait the 203+ years

Earths astronomers "knew" in advance that there was only 203 years 8 minuted left by some as yet unknown means. So they sent the urgent message "the moment" they calculated the time left before earths sun goes nova, if no action were taken by sending said messages to A and C.:---

The descendants of the eminent earths Astronomers would be waiting anxiously observing the sun 203 years and from  10 minutes after the previous astronomers warning. If the sun just went on as normal the experiment was successful or maybe not. They had to get these remote worlds to act in unison at the exact moment.

Of course the other two planets would also have to wait 203 years and 8/9 minutes to see if their obedience saved reality. or not.

So by some foresight they save our sun or universe

What I am trying to convey , yes we can not send information faster than light speed. But there might be a universal mean time , just like GMT. Time is not confined to the speed of light is it?

Syngronising clocks on world remote from each other is not impossible
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: JP on 30/06/2008 21:35:53
What I am trying to convey , yes we can not send information faster than light speed. But there might be a universal mean time , just like GMT. Time is not confined to the speed of light is it?

Syngronising clocks on world remote from each other is not impossible

Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity .
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Soul Surfer on 30/06/2008 22:47:46
Just accepting for the moment that the concept is a valid thought experiment To what precision do you wish the two events to be synchronised?
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 01/07/2008 07:54:41

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Just accepting for the moment that the concept is a valid thought experiment To what precision do you wish the two events to be synchronised?

Within say one relative hour.

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Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity .

Dear Wik , how knowledgeable they are. Time moves differently on planets of different masses. so we take in my thought experiment the flow of time when floating free in space and then adjust our local clocks accordingly. To my proposed UMT.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Soul Surfer on 01/07/2008 09:12:46
OK the timing is not all that critical and the orbital velocities of the planets are not a critical factor the earth's orbit would only change at the timing by about 15 minutes but you still need to know the relative distance and relative velocities of the stars around which the planets are orbiting.  The relative velocities can measured quite accurately using Doppler but the relative distances can only be determined accurately enough by using and timing a round trip signal which will require two way communication between the distant planets and the earth adding considerably to the time needed to set up the simultaneous action.

however I don't see quite what you are getting on about because nothing about what you have already suggested implies any communication faster than light.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 01/07/2008 09:20:10
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hpwever I don't see quite what you are getting on about because nothing about what you hasve already suggested implies any communication faster than light

While we cannot exceed light C we can send an urgent message by  Radio and use the fundamental constance to get remote planets to react in the same moment as we want at the very same universal mean time. Of course if there is a UMT.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Soul Surfer on 01/07/2008 09:36:06
You may be getting precisely timed actions happening between two places that could not have communicated but it is you who are instigating the actions and not either of the two places that could not have communicated.

Effects like this are often seen in astronomy and seem to show things actually moving faster than light.

Consider the bright pulse of light moving away from a supernova this creates a shell of light lasting for a few weeks into space. This may hit a large and approximately flat sheet of dust and gas a few light years away from the supernova(probably the gas and dust shell expanding from a supernova that happened many millions of years earlier)  first we see the supernova and a few years later we see the bright light from the supernova reach the sheet of dust and gas and cause it to brighten for a short period and this expands into a ring as the shell of light passes through it .  This ring can appear to be expanding faster than the velocity of light because it is only the shell of light brightening up areas of cloud and gas simultaneously and nothing is really moving except the light.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 01/07/2008 09:51:59
SS

I am aware of the supernova dus gass cloud phenonomen.

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You may be getting precisely timed actions happening between two places that could not have communicated but it is you who are instigating the actions and not either of the two places that could not have communicated

Again you are correct the two planets do not communicate but but I have made them "aware" exactly what the other was doing at the exact same moment althoufgh they are separated by 300 light years. A sort of "knowledge" across 300 light years if you like.

Remember the message is comprehensive giving each planet detailed information about the other,
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 01/07/2008 13:18:25
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Again you are correct the two planets do not communicate but but I have made them "aware" exactly what the other was doing at the exact same moment althoufgh they are separated by 300 light years. A sort of "knowledge" across 300 light years if you like.

This is what you keep saying, and we keep trying to explain. Planets A and C are not in any way aware of what any other planet is doing by the time they get the message. They can speculate on the probability of what is happening on the other planets, make the educated opinion that they are probably synchronising their effort along with them, but 100/200 years is a long time. Anything could have happened to the other planets by the time either planet recieves the message. A planet could have been wiped out by an asteriod, a plague could have killed its population, civil war, etc. leaving no one to perform the hypothetical act. All they are aware of is the state of the situation from the time the message was sent.

Also, if you were to invoke the scenario that the universe is destroyed instantly apon failure to act in sync, therefore each planet can know the far planet did the laser thing as soon as they realise the universe still exists, then this too is not faster than light knowledge, because for all they know the other planet could have failed in the task and an alien spaceship could have come to the rescue. So they don't know the other planet must have succeeded, they reason that this is what most likely happened, but they cannot know as a fact what happened until more communications are recieved from the other planets.

And aliens or not the only reason the "knowledge" would travel faster than light in this scenario is because the universe itself was going to end instantly, you're getting around light speed by deducing what happened seemingly faster than light because the destructive force of the universe was instantaneous and therefore faster than light.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 01/07/2008 13:26:07
And i just used MS paint, here's a tutorial. http://www.lkwdpl.org/classes/mspaint/paint.html

Btw, the Earth would probably have to have been towed a few more light minutes away from the Sun or it would be consumed when the sun expanded into its red giant phase.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: JP on 01/07/2008 17:41:23
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Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity .

Dear Wik , how knowledgeable they are. Time moves differently on planets of different masses. so we take in my thought experiment the flow of time when floating free in space and then adjust our local clocks accordingly. To my proposed UMT.

That link has nothing to do with masses of planets.  You can't have a "UMT," because you can't define what it means to be "at rest" in the universe.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Soul Surfer on 01/07/2008 23:32:57
RE your post at 09:51b you have not given the panets upto date information by the time the most distant of them receives the information your information about them is (by your scale) 400 years out of date and they cannot know if the other planiet is responding to your instructions.
Title: Re: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 02/07/2008 01:19:01
MS

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This is what you keep saying, and we keep trying to explain. Planets A and C are not in any way aware of what any other planet is doing by the time they get the message. They can speculate on the probability of what is happening on the other planets, make the educated opinion that they are probably synchronising their effort along with them, but 100/200 years is a long time.

It is of course true that at the moment they receive the message they can only hope and speculate that the other has got the message. Those that come after them (their great great  grandchildren) must wait the 203 years and 8 minutes and at that precisely timed moment each planet A, B and C will "know" what the message asked them to do was, success or failure. They will simultaneously "know" this at the very same "moment" although separated by the vast spans of the universe, that the outcome of the experiment. 200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

There was a time frame in which they had to work simultaneously and the planets not the message receivers "will know" this at the specific precise moment (203 ys 8+ Mn)later.

We do not overcome C we work around it in the time we have left. An act of of great timing that is all.

I have worded this thread incorrect and will modify it now

I sense A little frustration but I really understand your informed point of view
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 02/07/2008 08:18:47
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Those that come after them (their great great  grandchildren) must wait the 203 years and 8 minutes and at that precisely timed moment each planet A, B and C will "know" what the message asked them to do was, success or failure. They will simultaneously "know" this at the very same "moment" although separated by the vast spans of the universe, that the outcome of the experiment.

No, they can assume the outcome of the experiment. Like I was saying, for all planet C knows planet A could have failed in the task and aliens came to the rescue instead. Or the acts of B and C were enough to save them without A after all. Or doomsday just didn't happen at all as they had predicted. They won't know for sure exactly what transpired on the other planets until they recieve a communication from them.

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200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

I meant in human terms, its alot of time for a planet to enter into a world war and wipe themselves out, etc.
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 02/07/2008 09:20:37
M_S,
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Or the acts of B and C were enough to save them without A after all. Or doomsday just didn't happen at all as they had predicted. They won't know for sure exactly what transpired on the other planets until they recieve a communication from them.

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200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

I meant in human terms, its alot of time for a planet to enter  into a world war and wipe themselves out, etc.

Think about this. on earth we have a GMT so we can set all our  time peaces exactly down to the atomic clock precision in all the cities I mentioned earlier. Cape Town = B London= C and Sydney =A

At this early stage of information they have no idea what the other cities are doing except that their time peaces are synchronised. (foreget for now London Town is burning)

It we have clocks that are accurate and precisely set in all three cities we have achieved some sort of combined knowledge and deduct what we want them to do in he body of the detailed message.

I see universal time as an illusion time to, me anyway. is more like tiny frames on the huge movie reel that is the universes history. What I am proposing it that these frames exist simultaneously across the universe and maybe, just maybe they could be put side by side.

200+ years is indeed  a long time in human terms, but we have the same dilemma as my decidedly vague time experiment, with the looming global warming. If it does not bring disaster in our life time it will in our children or great grandchildren time. We therefore must and can send them a message across the ages to warn them to act and not make the same mistake we have by rampand consumeration of the earth limited resources.

Regards I appreciate your thoughtful inputs to the topic
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 02/07/2008 09:57:40
Sure, we can synchronise our measurement of time with them roughly but we can't communicate with them or recieve any information about them faster than light.
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 02/07/2008 10:36:34

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Sure, we can synchronise our measurement of time with them roughly but we can't communicate with them or recieve any information about them faster than light

Going back o the three city earth scenario, disaster Will happen or not happen at the exact same moment all over the earth, The whole world might explode in one colossal flash.

I propose that there might be a Universal Mean "Moment" somewhat the same as GMT. or a "GM Moment" Time is an illusion of the human Psyche there only ever changing "moments of nows"

Remember a love song what a beautiful "Moment" A moment with your lover condenses 12 hours of real time into one glorious moment, subjective time An awful moment such as waiting in long boring Queue  for say a doctors negative report will stretch out to an subjective etrnity,. Both are real one a fleeting moment , the other an eternity to exaggerate somewhat

This is off topic but the point is does time travel , does it have a speed, is it entangled somehow with the light constant C is there no universal moment?????
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 02/07/2008 14:13:10
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I propose that there might be a Universal Mean "Moment" somewhat the same as GMT. or a "GM Moment" Time is an illusion of the human Psyche there only ever changing "moments of nows"

If time is just an illusion of the human psyche then why does an atomic clock at the top of a water tower run slower than one at the bottom?

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Remember a love song what a beautiful "Moment" A moment with your lover condenses 12 hours of real time into one glorious moment, subjective time An awful moment such as waiting in long boring Queue  for say a doctors negative report will stretch out to an subjective etrnity,. Both are real one a fleeting moment , the other an eternity to exaggerate somewhat

This is just our own psychological perception of time, if you compared the watches afterwards of someone who had been waiting in a queue against someone having a good time with their parter they would still show the same time, regardless of how each person personally perceived the flow of time.

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This is off topic but the point is does time travel , does it have a speed, is it entangled somehow with the light constant C is there no universal moment?????

Time is relative to each observer, read up on the works of a bloke called Albert Einstein.
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 03/07/2008 01:33:50

What about the very reall possiblity of somehow using
quantum entaglement to send iinformation huge astromomical distanced instantly? It is within the realm of possibilty.
Usually when physicists talk about nonlocality in quantum mechanics, they’re referring to the fact that two particles can have immediate effects on each other, even when separated by large distances. Einstein famously called the phenomena “spooky interaction at a distance” because information about a particle seems to be traveling faster than the speed of light, violating the laws of causality/information transfer

The phenomenon of nonlocality arises from the `quantum entanglement` between quantum objects that have formerly interacted--even though astronomically large distances may separate these objects. This phenomenon has now been demonstrated
Alan

Article By David G. Yurth, PhD  (no copy right)

Non-locality and quantum entanglement are neither delicate nor rare events. Quantum non-locality is not rare and does not disappear. The Universe operates according to the principles of complementarity at all scales - Kafatos and Nadeau established the particulars of this verity with extraordinary adroitness in their watershed book "The Conscious Universe." The concept of non-locality as an implicate attribute of the material world is borne out by three pieces of impeccably documented science which are only now becoming generally known. Nicolas Gisin and his colleagues at CERN proved that Bell's predictions regarding non-locality were precisely correct.

The positron-electron pairs they separated with a Potassium Niobate crystal and shunted through 15 kilometers of fiber optic cable, automatically re-oriented spin and polarity instantaneously to maintain net-spin values of zero when one of the particle-pair was accelerated through an electromagnetic field, to seven decimal points, in repeated trials.

The effective rate at which the information transfer occurred between the particles is calculated to be at least 10 to the nine times faster than the speed of light. Second, Vladimir Poponin has demonstrated in his work with the DNA Phantom Effect that every molecule of DNA exerts a non-local field effect on the material locale surrounding it, which persists for up to 30 days after the DNA molecule source has been removed.

The importance of Poponin's work is that it proves unequivocally that among living organisms, non-locality operates simultaneously with chemo-synaptic neuronal processes at all scales and in all living things.

Finally, Donald Eigler's work at IBM's Almaden Lab's proves that non-local holographic field effects operate in all things as an intrinsic attribute of matter at atomic and sub-atomic scales, regardless of whether the materials are organic or not. In "The Non-Local Universe,"

Kafatos has simply opened the lid to this Pandora's box by providing an epistemological model which is carefully thought out, clearly articulated and reasonably constructed. His model is absolutely right on the mark and deserves to be read by anyone who is willing to look at this aggregation of unimpeachable evidence with clear scientific detachment.

Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 03/07/2008 08:49:15
I don't really know a whole lot about quantum entanglement but I thought communication was impossible through it because although both entangled atoms react at the same time, there's no way to control the action, and someone trying to recieve a signal would not be able to tell the difference between a random normal action, or an action induced by the far signaller.
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 03/07/2008 09:53:25
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I don't really know a whole lot about quantum entanglement but I thought communication was impossible through it because although both entangled atoms react at the same time, there's no way to control the action, and someone trying to recieve a signal would not be able to tell the difference between a random normal action, or an action induced by the far signaller
.

Well although the "how"? of instantaneous transfer via the quantum entanglement route  is still a far off possibility it is a real scientific quest, just like the development of the quantum computer, which they already got to factorize the number 15.

Not very impressive, but what is impressive it does the calculation instantaneously unlike the present mode of computerization by the transistor chip.

Quantum information transfer is therefore, not an impossible as it has already being demonstrated by utilizing albeit on a minute scale of the within the constraints of really really early prototype quantum computer.

I have often thought about subjective time and what I call the "Great Observer platform of time" (please I am not going the god route here).

This great observer platform" might exist in another reality, who knows!

Something such as all events happening in a great city your beautiful Sydney from the objective view of a perfect telescope in space. The telescope(my great observer platform) would be able to take in all these multiple activities as one great moment. And this is already being done by googol earth to a lesser degree.

Could the "telescope" not be an analogy of my great observer platform whereby our whole universe might be observed from the great observer platform, viewing the whole universe moment by moment, instead of what we call linear time.

If we could source this hypothetical great observer platform, we might be able to know what the whole universe was doing in any moment in time.

Alan
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Madidus_Scientia on 04/07/2008 08:54:16
How long is a moment?
Title: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
Post by: Alan McDougall on 04/07/2008 10:10:53

Madidus the subject of Time is unimaginably complex and thus the reason for our continues dialogue and unseen spectaters. Thank you for your thoughtful contrabutions to this very deep subject

So to continue on the byways and highways of the rivers of thought.

What Time - Is It?

Time, what is it? Actually, time is just a concept connecting matter, space and motion together. The word Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space.

The rate of relative position change is called velocity. There can be no absolute velocity for any single piece of matter; velocity only has meaning when measured against at least one other piece of matter. T

he same is true for direction and time. There can be no absolute direction for any single piece of matter. There can be no absolute time. It is the change in relative positions, directions, and velocities of matter that we call “TIME”.

Absolute Time could exist outside the constraints of our universe from the perspective of my hypothetic "Geat Observer Platform"

PROOF

Try this simple thought experiment. Imagine if all relative motion stopped even down to the electrons within their orbits. What we call “Time” also would stop. The hands on the clock of course stop moving at the position they were in when the freeze took place. One can easily see that without the relative motions of matter time has no meaning.

This is because fundamentally it is relative motion that we are describing when we use the term “Time”. This is one simple proof of what “Time” is. Time does not exist as a separate entity. Time is only a conceptual tool used to relate the complex, changing, positions, directions, and velocities of matter to other pieces of matter in space.

I mentioned this idea of mine in another thread called "Nothing is absolute everything is relative and subjective"

SPACE

Space without matter/energy is dimensionless and cannot be described. Without matter to compare to other matter/energy, distance is meaningless. An example of this is when we measure distance. The devices we use to measure distance all simply compare at least two pieces of matter in some way. We really do not physically measure the empty space in between.

If all relative motion stopped a three-axis, coordinate system could easily locate every piece of matter within space. Matter is moving about so a fourth dimension is needed to describe the change in relative positions of any moving objects within space. This fourth dimension is what we have been calling TIME.

We have been using this concept of time for so long that it has become part of our thinking. This has blinded many and has caused some to think of time as an entity within itself. It is not. It is merely an expedient way to express (and think) about the very complex relative motions of matter through space. The word Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space.

NOW

When someone asks, “What is the time?” you might think you could be smart and say “Now”. You would of course be wrong. Even as you were saying the word, relative motions of unimaginable complexity has occurred. Even the hands on the clock moved ever so slightly.

The Cesium atomic clock in Boulder Colorado vibrates 9,192,631,770 times each second . You may have realized by “Now” that “Now” cannot even exist! No matter how small the increment, some relative motion of matter has occurred somewhere in the Universe.

Now is a nice concept but has no absolute meaning take midnight the moment you think it has arrived it is gone into the future.

THE PAST

If we think about the past, thoughts are conjured up about some mysterious time gone by. The reality is that we are referring to a set of relative locations of all of the pieces of matter in the Universe. Time travel into the “past” would require that all of the intricate pieces of matter in the Universe be returned to the "older" original relative positions, directions, and velocities that existed at that point.. Is the past is a real Humpty Dumpy!

THE FUTURE

The future simply is a reference to the relative positions, directions, and velocities of all the matter in the Universe at some step that has not occurred yet but will. In theory if a giant computer could first know and then calculate where each particle of matter was and its relative directional velocity to all other pieces of matter, the future would be predictable. A backward calculation could also be done to reconstruct a vision of what things were like before. After all, the future is just a description of the relative positions, directions, and velocities of everything at a particular step.

distances are only the relation of space to time and vary with that relation.”
Marcel Proust

We all use the word time just about every day. We talk about how much time we have left for the math period to end or how many hours a week we work or the time remaining till the start of our favourite television programme. Nevertheless, do we really know what time is when put into perspective with the laws that govern the rest of the universe? We often hear the phrase space and time but we dismiss it as the language of scientists, often wondering what the two have to do with each other, since the layman's perception of space is only what he saw in the last Star Wars movie.

What we do not realize is that the two are inextricably linked, and, more importantly, they are both integral to the world in which we live. In fact, they are the physical building blocks that make up our existence, the habitat in which all things dwell and have dwelt for eternity. We will now begin to examine exactly how the two make up our world and why they are so inseparable, and how time plays a large part in the proper physical functioning of our universe.

Time is what allows us not only to measure the duration of events but also to determine when events in space occurred in relation to other events in space.

This requires the establishment of a universal timescale that can be used to compare the events, the determination of which depends on precise mathematical calculations derived from astronomical observations. Just as events can occur at different points in space at the same point in time, they can also occur at different points in time at the same point in space (how many times have my parents told me that they used to do exactly the same things as I do now, only thirty years ago). This brings us to realize that they must in some way be related.

The fact is that we live in a dimensional universe, the fabric of which is given the term ‘space-time.’ We are familiar with the three dimensions of space (length, breadth and height), and indeed with that of time, except that we never think of time as just being another dimension to our universe, basically because it is difficult, in fact, just about impossible, to imagine a dimensional universe. Indeed, it is often difficult to imagine three-dimensional space, especially where school math is involved.

We often give points in space a discernible position by giving them three coordinates to establish their distance in all three dimensions relative to other points in space. It is almost like giving somebody the directions to your house by referring to various landmarks that the person may be familiar with.

However, in order to establish the exact position of events in space-time, the only difference is that we must specify four coordinates for the event (three for space and one for time). Although the dimension theory is now widely accepted as a definition of time, there are some that continue to oppose it.

From a philosophical viewpoint, time is more bewildering than space. Does it flow through our lives or do we flow through an endless sea of time? But this too is difficult to understand. There have been questions such as how many seconds of time flow in one second, suggesting that the rate of flow of time is taken as relative to something else, a sort of hyper time, which in turn, to flow, would require a hyper-hyper time and so on indefinitely.

Do future events occur as the present approaches them, or are they already there in a different time than that in which we live? How is it that we seem to have an internal clock that often wakes us up when the alarm does not ring?

These are questions that are difficult to answer, and bear testament to the fascination that man has had with time ever since the beginning of, well…time. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant said that space and time were phenomenally real (part of the world as described by science) but nominally unreal (not a part of the unknowable world of things in themselves).

The burden of time on the shoulders of a man haunts him as it sweeps him closer to his death, and so it is likely that man will continue to try to find out more about this phenomenon, which he has still not quite understood

So here is a continuation of that complex reality from a different angle.

Time is one of the world's deepest mysteries.  No one can say exactly what it is.  Yet, the ability to measure time is what makes our way of life possible.  Most human activities involve groups of people acting together in the same place at the same time.  People could not do this if they did not all measure time in the same way

We sometimes say “Where” something is.  Even where is meaningless without other pieces of matter to relate the location. Imagine being in a Universe that is empty except for you. “Where” would not be meaningful without other pieces of matter to reference against. There is no absolute “Where”.

Age is another word that really means change. The word age has been used so broadly that it has taken on an independent character. There is no absolute age. Age should refer to the change in the relative positions, directions, and velocities of the particles that make up the object under discussion.

You have heard that one thing can age faster than another. People, wine, etc. This is just a common example of the perverted use of a concept. What people are really referring to are different "relative" amounts of change. A sharper more disciplined use of such terms should be required for scientific thinking. We have let our words limit our thoughts and our vision, almost to blindness.

The past, the future, now, and where cannot exist in an independent form, but the do from different subjective relativity's

Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space

Time is what allows us not only to measure the duration of events but also to determine when events in space occurred in relation to other events in space. This requires the establishment of a universal timescale that can be used to compare the events, the determination of which depends on precise mathematical calculations derived from astronomical observations.

Just as events can occur at different points in space at the same point in time, they can also occur at different points in time at the same point in space (how many times have my parents told me that they used to do exactly the same things as I do now, only thirty years ago). This brings us to realize that they must in some way be related.