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General Science => General Science => Topic started by: richard weathers on 28/05/2009 17:10:33

Title: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: richard weathers on 28/05/2009 17:10:33
Hello,

If the universe as we know it was created from an uncontrolled bursting forth,  how is it that our solar system formed in the structure of an atom?

The atom has a nucleus surrounded by at least one electron in a valence band; with further sub-atomic particles "orbiting" those electron(s).  The Sun serves as a nucleus with the planets orbiting as electrons orbit the nucleus in the atom; with moon etc. "orbiting" like sub-atomic particles do.

I have proffered the question in various academic groups with no response or with no plausible explanation.  If indeed the big bang was a chaotic explosion, how do you answer the question above?

Thank you
Richard Weathers
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: RD on 28/05/2009 17:42:58
how is it that our solar system formed in the structure of an atom?

Because models of the atom were based on the solar system, e.g. Saturnian model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnian_model#Saturnian_model) and the Bohr model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model).

The electron cloud model  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_cloud) has superseded these solar-system type models.

Some animations of "orbitals" (electron probability distribution "clouds") can be seen at he bottom of this  (http://daugerresearch.com/orbitals/) page.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: richard weathers on 28/05/2009 20:15:59
Most scientists probably would agree the order (organization) doesn't come from random chaos.  You took a front-end loader and fill it with wood, pipes, electrical wire, fiberboard, etc.you could dump it and redump it to eternity and it would never form a house.  Everything in the house would also have to align at the exact same time or else you would have to start over again.  The answers to this question, as I wrote originally, deserves a honest answer. If this is normal  phenomenon that just occurs, you would expect to see it elsewhere.  True scientist are open-mind; they just want to know the truth about things.  They serve no one else's agenda.  On the other hand, if one has an agenda, they exhibit a "confirmation bias" which is adverse to the scientific method because they only see what they want to see.  Very unscientific.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: RD on 28/05/2009 20:51:23
Overall entropy always increases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)).
At the big bang the universe was in a more ordered state than today,
 so order has not come from chaos as you seem to be suggesting.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: richard weathers on 29/05/2009 01:20:38
Perhaps you should reread my comments.  I whole heartily agree that order produces order; therefore the "big bang" had some prime mover of an orderly nature.  I'm trying to appeal to reason.  I'm not interested in simply arguing.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: RD on 29/05/2009 03:42:24
I whole heartily agree that order produces order

I never said that, quite the reverse ...

Ever increasing entropy means overall the universe is increasingly disordered.

Have a look at the wikipedia link on entropy  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(classical_thermodynamics))
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: lyner on 31/05/2009 16:42:41
Perhaps you should reread my comments.  I whole heartily agree that order produces order; therefore the "big bang" had some prime mover of an orderly nature.  I'm trying to appeal to reason.  I'm not interested in simply arguing.

There is no implied reason in what you say. If you take a very long random number then, within it, you will very likely find a sequence 1 2 3 4 5 6. That's an apparent chance occurrence of some order amongst a very disordered array. It don't prove a thing! It's just the way it happens to be.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: syhprum on 22/01/2019 13:53:50
Long before the monkeys with typewriters had finished the works of Shakespeare your collection of dumped building materials would have formed a house that's how random events occur given sufficient time. 
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: Student Help on 04/02/2019 12:22:42
Your Question was -
If the universe as we know it was created from an uncontrolled bursting forth,  how is it that our solar system formed in the structure of an atom?
Answer-
You said it true that the formation of the universe is as explained by big bang theory. After Big burst, different size particles were scattered. Out of which some became planets and others still to be discovered. In the end, all planets move under the influence of others.
Providing you an example that one of the most noticeable effects of gravity in the solar system is the orbit of the planets. The sun could hold 1.3 million Earths so its mass has a strong gravitational pull. When a planet tries to go past the sun at a high rate of speed, gravity grabs the planet and pulls it towards the sun. :) Apart from this, what is happening in these planets are explained by the chemistry experts. In my opinion, it is nothing but different types of bonds we study in a particular subject. It will be more clear to you if you read with examples like -Ionic bond, covalent bond examples and so on...
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: Colin2B on 04/02/2019 13:15:55
P
When a planet tries to go past the sun at a high rate of speed, gravity grabs the planet and pulls it towards the sun. :)
Are you really saying that this is how the solar system was formed, by the Sun capturing planets.
Are you sure this is really helpful to students?
I think it is misleading.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/02/2019 17:55:56
Consier small bits of stuff flying around in space. If two bits pass close to each other, they may be mutually captured by their gravitational fields and rotate around their barycentre, conserving the angular momentum of the system and possibly accreting together if their initial approach is close enough - hence a spinning planet.

If we consider a planet-size accretion moving rapidly through space, it can similarly be "captured" by  much larger body, so that the mutual barycentre is close to or even inside the larger body, but conservation of angular momentum holds the planet in an elliptical orbit around the star if the initial approach was skewed.

Since all the planets are pulling on each other, the mutual barycentres of initially random orbits will gradually align into a single plane but the spin axes of the planets will not.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: jeffreyH on 04/02/2019 18:27:07
Pluto would then be an outlier.
Title: Re: Why does our solar system resemble the structure of an atom?
Post by: Halc on 04/02/2019 19:44:44
Consier small bits of stuff flying around in space. If two bits pass close to each other, they may be mutually captured by their gravitational fields and rotate around their barycentre, conserving the angular momentum of the system and possibly accreting together if their initial approach is close enough - hence a spinning planet.
This doesn't work.  Two objects will pass each other on a hyperbolic trajectory and part company permanently.  If they're not going fast enough to do that, they were already orbiting each other.
To be captured, you need something to slow the captured thing down, say a 3rd body or friction.  Accretion happens due to friction.  Many small moons have possibly been captured by the 3rd-body method, but a single star is very unlikely to acquire a planet in this manner.  Binary stars can do it, but such systems are unstable and the planet is as likely to be expelled as it is to be captured.