# Naked Science Forum

## Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: jeffreyH on 15/12/2015 18:12:05

Title: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 15/12/2015 18:12:05
I can't remember off hand what the order of magnitude difference is between the strength of the electromagnetic and gravitational fields. I have just done some calculations and need to cross check the results. I think I have found the speed of gravity.
Title: Re: How many orders of magnitude?
Post by: evan_au on 15/12/2015 20:10:32
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what is the order of magnitude difference between the strength of the electromagnetic and gravitational fields?
See: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/FundamentalForces.html

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I think I have found the speed of gravity.
Gravitons are mostly assumed to have a rest mass of zero, but this has not been confirmed by experiment, at this time.
If the rest mass is zero (like the photon), gravity will travel at the speed of light; if it is non-zero (like the neutrino), gravity will travel slower than the speed of light. So the speed of gravity is also currently uncertain.

Some theories suggest that a small rest-mass for the graviton might account for the symptoms attributed to Dark Matter.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton#Experimental_observation
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 15/12/2015 22:07:48
Well I have a problem as the wavelengths would exceed those of the relic background from the big bang. This can't be possible but it appears to be the only way to have the speed of gravity equal to c. This has got to be completely wrong.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 17/12/2015 21:02:39
For photon energy the relationship is or . Since the difference in magnitude is 1038 between the electromagnetic and gravitational forces then or . So that the increase in wavelength and the associated drop in frequency are the only considerations required to determine the speed of gravity if the graviton is massless. What I haven't done is then calculate the required wavelengths of gravitation using the photon spectrum as a reference. My previous attempt was obviously wrong. I may get round to doing this at the weekend. I have a feeling this will also be wrong.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 17/12/2015 21:32:00
Well I couldn't wait it was driving me nuts. So using this relationship the SHORTEST gravitational wavelength actually starts at the longest relic background wavelength and ends up being much longer. So something is amiss here. The waves can't exist in this universe if they are in any way related proportionally to electromagnetism. They are basically outside our range of observation. The only way there appears to be to resolve this is by applying a factor to c so that the speed of light changes. Since this is a constant that makes little sense unless gravity is actually FASTER than c. I don't buy that since it would have to be MUCH faster than c. I can see why we get to the concept of a multiverse.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: acsinuk on 18/12/2015 10:13:44
If you assume the galaxies are magnetised and the WMAP results are correct with 85% of dark force missing then repelling force driving the stars apart is equivalent to 12G then the answer is 13G as you have to overcome mass attraction force of 1G as well.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: evan_au on 19/12/2015 00:28:06
Quote from: JeffreyH
The (gravitational) waves can't exist in this universe if they are in any way related proportionally to electromagnetism.
As I understand it, gravitational waves are not related proportionally to electromagnetic waves.

The strength of gravitational waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave#Power_radiated_by_orbiting_bodies) is related to the mass and acceleration of the objects producing the gravitational wave.

The strength of electromagnetic waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_wave_equation#Multipole_expansion) is related to the charge and acceleration of the objects producing the electromagnetic wave.

It is possible to have intense gravitational waves produced by merging galactic-center black holes. But since they will have almost zero charge, they will emit almost no electromagnetic waves.

It is possible to have intense electromagnetic waves produced by an electron dropping into an inner orbital (eg in an X-Ray machine). But since the electron and target atom have almost zero mass, they will emit almost no gravitational waves.

So electromagnetic and gravitational waves involve different fields, and they are not proportional to each other.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: puppypower on 19/12/2015 12:34:57
When forces like the strong and weak nuclear forces and the EM force lower potential, they give off energy; photon. Since gravity is also a force; weight, what type of energy wave/particle does gravity give off when it lowers potential?

Is it possible that the exothermic output waves from gravity, cancels the gravitational attractive waves, so we see neither?

As an analogy, the exothermic out from the EM force; electron lowering potential, can be used to reverse the EM force elsewhere by the exact same amount; ionization energy. If we apply this balancing action-reaction to gravity, its output, since it can reverse gravity elsewhere, will act like anti-gravity and therefore appear to offset the gravitational energy output; cancel. In the end it appear like nothing net has happened.

If we try to measure gravity or the reverse gravity output on earth, since all so many mass particles are interacting it becomes hard to differentiate either. The output due to gravity may be the source of dark energy, while dark matter may be example of gravity waves, where both remain uncanceled
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: puppypower on 19/12/2015 13:28:05
If we take 2 masses M at a distance D, and reduce the distance to 1/2D the gravitational potential goes down. Based on GR, this causes local  space-time to contract, such that energy becomes blue shifted. The blue shifted energy is where the exothermic output due to gravity will go; conservation of energy. There is a conversion from gravity to all the other force photons; blue shift.

Where the confusion lies is we use an abstraction called space-time, as a middleman, where space is the void between things and time is not a thing or potential. This mental filter causes a mental aberration. If instead we restrict ourselves to just tangible things, such as mass and energy, the lowering of gravitational potential results in a blue shift of energy in the region of the gravity change, resulting in more potent photons. The energy is balanced.

Don't get me wrong, space-time is useful because it allows us to integrate a range of things and therefore has practical utility in terms of simplifying calculations. But it appears to make the energy balance harder to see since this becomes part of a more complex integration that shifts the mind elsewhere.

Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 19/12/2015 18:10:00
Quote from: JeffreyH
The (gravitational) waves can't exist in this universe if they are in any way related proportionally to electromagnetism.
As I understand it, gravitational waves are not related proportionally to electromagnetic waves.

The strength of gravitational waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave#Power_radiated_by_orbiting_bodies) is related to the mass and acceleration of the objects producing the gravitational wave.

The strength of electromagnetic waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_wave_equation#Multipole_expansion) is related to the charge and acceleration of the objects producing the electromagnetic wave.

It is possible to have intense gravitational waves produced by merging galactic-center black holes. But since they will have almost zero charge, they will emit almost no electromagnetic waves.

It is possible to have intense electromagnetic waves produced by an electron dropping into an inner orbital (eg in an X-Ray machine). But since the electron and target atom have almost zero mass, they will emit almost no gravitational waves.

So electromagnetic and gravitational waves involve different fields, and they are not proportional to each other.

The issue isn't really the proportionality but the speed of propagation. The quantum of action doesn't fit well in an energy equation for gravitation. Not if the speed of gravity is equal to c. To actually get an energy equivalence (real or not) between the electromagnetic and gravitational fields the electromagnetic field has to be ultra red shifted and the gravitational field ultra blue shifted. However, using h pushes the gravitational wave spectrum way out of accepted values. The range shifts into a much longer wavelength spectrum. Something fundamental is missing. Probably staring everyone right in the face. It is something I am thinking about quite a lot at the moment and know that the answer is right in front of me.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: evan_au on 19/12/2015 20:39:50
Quote from: puppypower
what type of energy wave/particle does gravity give off when it lowers potential?
It is a hypothetical particle called the graviton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton).

Physicists have expectations about what it's properties should be, but they have never detected one. Physicists can see no way that we could detect an individual graviton with our current technologies, because their energy is so low.

This may be the answer to Jeffrey's problem - perhaps the relationship of energy to frequency is not Plank's constant, when it comes to gravity? Gravity is a different field, so it may have a different constant.

However, experiments like Enhanced LIGO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO) are looking for coherent waves of gravitons, and these should be possible to detect someday.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 20/12/2015 13:35:34
Strangely it appears to be that as the universe evolves the gravitational wave spectrum changes. It looks as though the force of gravity is gaining strength. Although this would be an imperceptible change to detect. It looks like something is distorting the spectrum. Dark matter? Dark energy?

EDIT: This may be the wrong way round and the strength of gravity may be decreasing as the universe evolves.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 20/12/2015 14:06:58
If Planck's constant plays no role in determining the energy of the gravitational field then this brings into question it's role in determining the gravitational constant and therefore all the Planck dimensions.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 20/12/2015 18:31:14
The situation cannot be resolved by introducing the gravitational coupling constant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_coupling_constant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_coupling_constant)

Since there is an inverse relationship between the ranges of the electromagnetic and gravitational spectra. It is as if the energy of the gravitational field varies on a coordinate basis that is unrelated to the coordinate speed of light. This also suggests a speed for gravity that does not equal c but is greater than c. I can find no way round this conclusion.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 20/12/2015 19:05:30
If we take values for lambdai, where i = 0 to 3, and have lambda_0 and lambda_1 define the shortest to the longest electromagnetic wavelength and lambda_2 to lambda_3 do the same for the gravitational wavelengths then values for alpha and beta can be defined as follows.

It can be shown that the correct values for the energy of the lowest and highest gravitational waves can be given by:

I will make no attempt to explain why this relationship exists as I don't even know if it is correct.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: acsinuk on 21/12/2015 11:44:28
Could it be that gravity is a short range force only? So it only effects matter or gas molecules that casimir touch together but in space it is only the electrostatic dark energy charge force and electromagnetic dark matter spin forces that apply.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 21/12/2015 13:21:41
No. It appears that something is dampening the strength of the gravitational field. More at the shorter wavelengths than the longer ones. This has to relate to the electromagnetic field and maybe other fields too. It is puzzling. I am very unsure of these results so examine them with caution.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 26/12/2015 13:45:16
This change, or stretching, of the gravitational field has to be a consequence of the expansion of the universe. I am unsure at the moment if this will make it easier or harder to detect gravitational waves.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: evan_au on 27/12/2015 02:36:40
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dampening the strength of the gravitational field. ... This has to relate to the electromagnetic field and maybe other fields too.

The photon is a spin=1 particle, and travels as a disturbance of the electromagnetic field.
The (hypothetical) graviton is a spin=2 particle, and travels as a disturbance of the (known) gravitational field*.

Why must gravity be affected by the electromagnetic field?

*Apparently, the graviton is one of the few successes of string theory; it is very easy for string theory to produce a spin=2 graviton. It's just reproducing the known parts of physics that is proving difficult!
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: jeffreyH on 27/12/2015 21:26:33
I didn't say that the electromagnetic field affected the gravitational field. Only that there was some connection between the two fields related to the effect. If you read my subsequent post the apparent change in energy may simply be a consequence of the expansion of the universe. This would place dark energy as the culprit in any change in the gravitational field. As the effects of dark energy are thought to be a repulsive force this would not be surprising. It may also be changing the profile of other fields too but not proportionally.
Title: Re: How much stronger are electromagnetic fields compared with gravitational fields?
Post by: Professor Mega-Mind on 04/11/2018 14:04:31
Actually , the two fields would both experience a mutual gravitational attraction , thus affecting each other .  EMR fields are much less substantial than Grav. fields , but much easier to manipulate .  An Alcubiere Drive based on EMR would be far , far easier to make than one based on Grav. fields .
Okay , somebody tell him !
P.M.