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Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: thedoc on 20/05/2016 00:50:01

Title: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: thedoc on 20/05/2016 00:50:01
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Atomic-S on 21/05/2016 06:54:00
Science has not fully explained the nature of consciousness, but there is evidence that it is the result of brain function. Based on that idea, we conclude that if the brain stops, there is no consciousness. On that basis, we might be inclined to conclude that there is no consciousness beyond death; all thought stops at that point. However, this analysis fails to take into account the phenomenon of time travel via suspended animation. Futurists have long hypothesized that people could effectively travel far into the future by placing themselves in a state of suspended animation and then "waking up" centuries later.  It is scientifically valid to view death as the ultimate form of suspended animation. How far does time travel via death take us into the future?  Based on our present knowledge, we would have to say it takes us to the end of the universe. If so, we might consider the issue to be of no significance, but that would be true only for we who remain behind in the present reference frame, for whom the end of the universe is, we think, an exceedingly distant phenomenon. But for the person who has died, it is not an insignificant question, because in his reference frame, he arrives at the end of the universe instantly. Therefore, for the dead, the question of what happens after heaven and earth pass away is a significant question, but it is also a question that is beyond the ability of science to answer.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Tim the Plumber on 21/05/2016 10:34:39
No.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: exothermic on 22/05/2016 10:01:07
Not without a brainstem, basal forebrain, thalamus or cerebral cortex.

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 10:14:01
I am not supporting any theory, just answering this question.

According to Dualism, consciousness depends on a substance different from the brain and thus might survive death.

It is unsettled what substance is that. The quantity and quality of consciousness that remains after the material component is totally lost is also unsettled.

Until any form of consciousness is created in a laboratory, however simple it is, and this is not even in a pre-embryonic phase, Dualism cannot be discarded or refuted.

I am devising a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, to show that Dualism cannot be excluded by just showing that mental actions depend on neural activity and that giving proof that by destroying a brain area, specific mental functions are lost is as much against Dualism as demonstrating that muscular function is lost by cutting a nerve.

My recommended lecture: Damasio's Error and Descartes' Truth by Andrew Gluck. University of Scranton Press. Scranton and London. 2007.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 10:46:39
Yes it does I had a profound near death experience in 2011 in which was clinically dead on the resuscitation table, my consciousness- self went elsewhere and I continue to exist as a thinking entity full of new life and happiness.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 11:03:31
Yes it does I had a profound near death experience in 2011 in which was clinically dead on the resuscitation table, my consciousness- self went elsewhere and I continue to exist as a thinking entity full of new life and happiness.

Perhaps. Unfortunately NDE is not scientifically validated so far. The main work on the subject, by JR Moody is flawed, as his sources and methodology have never been disclosed, and many people thus believe it was based in 2 or 3 reports (amongst how many no one knows). Sam Parnia, who devised a multicenter double-blind trial (The AWARE Study), could not report a single validated case. Many reports are completely inconsistent with the most common ones, and the  former are often omitted or given little attention. Most people who are pronounced dead cannot report anything at all. I am not writing off your statement, which is very significant. Only disclosing what is scientifically consensual.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Pseudoscience-is-malarkey on 21/06/2016 11:15:38
My maternal grandfather died when I was nine, and shortly before his death he and my grandmother were babysitting me for a week while my mother was out of country on business. I was up one night watching Unsolved Mysteries with him while I was having a mild episode of asthma wheezing. In the episode there was a segment about a woman who was visited by her dead father. I asked my grandfather if dead people can communicate with the living. He said he is not sure- but as a Roman Catholic, naturally he believed in life after death. We made a pact. He said that when his time comes, he will, if possible, try to communicate with me. He never did, and neither have any other dead people that i'm aware of. I made a similar pact with my father who, ironically, died shortly after. Six days ago was his two year death anniversary and I have not seen him either.

I suppose if i was the type that believed in ghosts, I would, in some way, convince myself that he visited me.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 11:29:05
Yes it does I had a profound near death experience in 2011 in which was clinically dead on the resuscitation table, my consciousness- self went elsewhere and I continue to exist as a thinking entity full of new life and happiness.

Perhaps. Unfortunately NDE is not scientifically validated so far. The main work on the subject, by JR Moody is flawed, as his sources and methodology have never been disclosed, and many people thus believe it was based in 2 or 3 reports (amongst how many no one knows). Sam Parnia, who devised a multicenter double-blind trial (The AWARE Study), could not report a single validated case. Many reports are completely inconsistent with the most common ones, and the  former are often omitted or given little attention. Most people who are pronounced dead cannot report anything at all. I am not writing off your statement, which is very significant. Only disclosing what is scientifically consensual.

You are right the vast majority experience nothing, however some do and it is a life changing event. Those that experience nothing might have in reality experienced something, but forgotten it, like we do in a dream. I am positive that this  type of event will never be proved scientifically because it is profoundly spiritual and involved the non-material part of mankind.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 11:29:26
My maternal grandfather died when I was nine, and shortly before his death he and my grandmother were babysitting me for a week while my mother was out of country on business. I was up one night watching Unsolved Mysteries with him while I was having a mild episode of asthma wheezing. In the episode there was a segment about a woman who was visited by her dead father. I asked my grandfather if dead people can communicate with the living. He said he is not sure- but as a Roman Catholic, naturally he believed in life after death. We made a pact. He said that when his time comes, he will, if possible, try to communicate with me. He never did, and neither have any other dead people that i'm aware of. I made a similar pact with my father who, ironically, died shortly after. Six days ago was his two year death anniversary and I have not seen him either.

I suppose if i was the type that believed in ghosts, I would, in some way, convince myself that he visited me.

That's very hard to interpret. Janis Amatuzio, a Forensic Doctor, in her book Ours Forever, tells about a woman that the night her husband died, a rainy night, a butterfly stayed all night in a plant outside the window and left in the morning. Michael Sabom, a Cardiologist, in his book Light & Death tells about a woman who was pronounced dead during a neurosurgical procedure and later described in great detail a strange neurosurgical tool that Sabom thought couldn't exist and later confirmed it was highly accurate. I think I'm talking about honest people. What these things mean is something very hard to say.   
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 11:34:52
My maternal grandfather died when I was nine, and shortly before his death he and my grandmother were babysitting me for a week while my mother was out of country on business. I was up one night watching Unsolved Mysteries with him while I was having a mild episode of asthma wheezing. In the episode there was a segment about a woman who was visited by her dead father. I asked my grandfather if dead people can communicate with the living. He said he is not sure- but as a Roman Catholic, naturally he believed in life after death. We made a pact. He said that when his time comes, he will, if possible, try to communicate with me. He never did, and neither have any other dead people that i'm aware of. I made a similar pact with my father who, ironically, died shortly after. Six days ago was his two year death anniversary and I have not seen him either.

I suppose if i was the type that believed in ghosts, I would, in some way, convince myself that he visited me.

That's very hard to interpret. Janis Amatuzio, a Forensic Doctor, in her book Ours Forever, tells about a woman that the night her husband died, a rainy night, a butterfly stayed all night in a plant outside the window and left in the morning. Michael Sabom, a Cardiologist, in his book Light & Death tells about a woman who was pronounced death during a neurosurgical procedure and later described in great detail a strange neurosurgical tool that Sabom thought couldn't existed and later confirmed it was highly accurate. I think I'm talking about honest people. What these things mean is something very hard to say.   

I that most people who have had a near death experience are honest folk, they know that they will be scoffed at and their stories will not taken serious, as was my case, when I posted here in the forum, as delusional?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 11:35:18
Yes it does I had a profound near death experience in 2011 in which was clinically dead on the resuscitation table, my consciousness- self went elsewhere and I continue to exist as a thinking entity full of new life and happiness.

Perhaps. Unfortunately NDE is not scientifically validated so far. The main work on the subject, by JR Moody is flawed, as his sources and methodology have never been disclosed, and many people thus believe it was based in 2 or 3 reports (amongst how many no one knows). Sam Parnia, who devised a multicenter double-blind trial (The AWARE Study), could not report a single validated case. Many reports are completely inconsistent with the most common ones, and the  former are often omitted or given little attention. Most people who are pronounced dead cannot report anything at all. I am not writing off your statement, which is very significant. Only disclosing what is scientifically consensual.

[...] I am positive that this  type of event will never be proved scientifically because it is profoundly spiritual and involved the non-material part of mankind.

Sam Parnia in his AWARE Study devised a very clever protocol that could validate scientifically an out-of-body experience. Unfortunately he couldn't arrange for a single person passing the protocol.

The study is still going on to the best of my knowledge and maybe a validated case will happen sometime, I hope.

Sam Parnia reported 2060 cardiac arrest. 140 people survived and could be interviewed later. 101 gave detailed interviews and, of these, 9 had NDE. Of these, 2 could fulfill the protocol, but only one could be interviewed for that purposed. Unfortunately the NDE occurred in a placed not prepared by the protocol and couldn't be validated. The places prepared had a significant image placed so that it could only be seen from the ceiling and no Doctor serving there knew about it.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 11:39:10
Yes it does I had a profound near death experience in 2011 in which was clinically dead on the resuscitation table, my consciousness- self went elsewhere and I continue to exist as a thinking entity full of new life and happiness.

Perhaps. Unfortunately NDE is not scientifically validated so far. The main work on the subject, by JR Moody is flawed, as his sources and methodology have never been disclosed, and many people thus believe it was based in 2 or 3 reports (amongst how many no one knows). Sam Parnia, who devised a multicenter double-blind trial (The AWARE Study), could not report a single validated case. Many reports are completely inconsistent with the most common ones, and the  former are often omitted or given little attention. Most people who are pronounced dead cannot report anything at all. I am not writing off your statement, which is very significant. Only disclosing what is scientifically consensual.

[...] I am positive that this  type of event will never be proved scientifically because it is profoundly spiritual and involved the non-material part of mankind.

Sam Parnia in his AWARE Study devised a very clever protocol that could validate scientifically an out-of-body experience. Unfortunately he couldn't arrange for a single person passing the protocol.

Out of Body type episodes cannot be equated with a profound near death experience as no "Clever Protocol" is going to prove or disprove the truth about them.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 11:46:32
I am not supporting any theory, just answering this question.

According to Dualism, consciousness depends on a substance different from the brain and thus might survive death.

It is unsettled what substance is that. The quantity and quality of consciousness that remains after the material component is totally lost is also unsettled.

Until any form of consciousness is created in a laboratory, however simple it is, and this is not even in a pre-embryonic phase, Dualism cannot be discarded or refuted.

I am devising a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, to show that Dualism cannot be excluded by just showing that mental actions depend on neural activity and that giving proof that by destroying a brain area, specific mental functions are lost is as much against Dualism as demonstrating that muscular function is lost by cutting a nerve.

My recommended lecture: Damasio's Error and Descartes' Truth by Andrew Gluck. University of Scranton Press. Scranton and London. 2007.

Yes a good magician "can fool the brain", because of the limitations of human physical sensory perception, which evolution or God, if you prefer designed/ programmed into us so that we can survive as material oxygen breathing entities on planet earth.

You cannot cut the nerve of the ethereal part of man namely his soul!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 11:49:40
Out of Body type episodes cannot be equated with a profound near death experience as no "Clever Protocol" is going to prove or disprove the truth about them.

Alan, of course not. But many NDE include an OBE and this could be subject to the protocol and thus validate scientifically the NDE. Only NDE that include OBE can be subject to trial I think.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: exothermic on 21/06/2016 12:59:57
How does a near-death experience provide evidence for the existence of consciousness [after] death?

If the blood flow to the brainstem is blocked for 10-seconds.... you're rendered unconscious, and if it's blocked for more than a few minutes.... you're a vegetable.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 14:41:41
How does a near-death experience provide evidence for the existence of consciousness [after] death?

If the blood flow to the brainstem is blocked for 10-seconds.... you're rendered unconscious, and if it's blocked for more than a few minutes.... you're a vegetable.

The only "Evidence" is "believing" the person who relates the story, why should they lie about it, millions have had this experience and are absolutely convinced they saw into the afterlife? In my own case my heart was not beating and a dying brain without a blood supply simply cannot construct the beauty and wonder of what I saw. I was not unconscious at all, my brain yes inactive, however, the non-material part of my being more active and alive than anything experienced as a mortal on earth. I had left this earthy coil into an existence of timelessness, completely unlike the linear time flow we experience in the physical body.

Gone from the resuscitation table for a minute or two, but experience a lifetime on the other side.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: exothermic on 21/06/2016 15:29:12
How does a near-death experience provide evidence for the existence of consciousness [after] death?

If the blood flow to the brainstem is blocked for 10-seconds.... you're rendered unconscious, and if it's blocked for more than a few minutes.... you're a vegetable.

The only "Evidence" is "believing" the person who relates the story, why should they lie about it, millions have had this experience and are absolutely convinced they saw into the afterlife? In my own case my heart was not beating and a dying brain without a blood supply simply cannot construct the beauty and wonder of what I saw. I was not unconscious at all, my brain yes inactive, however, the non-material part of my being more active and alive than anything experienced as a mortal on earth. I had left this earthy coil into an existence of timelessness, completely unlike the linear time flow we experience in the physical body.

Gone from the resuscitation table for a minute or two, but experience a lifetime on the other side.

No, please don't misunderstand me.... I am not denying anyone's experience whatsoever.

Believe it or not, I've had a very similar experience myself [minus the near death part] however, I'd argue that what we've experienced has nothing to do with consciousness whatsoever, but rather.... more like peering into a completely different realm of existence altogether.

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 21/06/2016 17:33:59
A 'near death experience' (NDE) isn't an experience after death, by definition (the clue is in the name). The term 'clinical death' is widely used to mean temporary cessation of heartbeat and breathing, but it doesn't necessarily lead to actual death, which is irreversible.

NDEs and OBEs are known to be triggered by seizures, cerebral hypoxia (fighter jet pilots sometimes get them during brown-outs and G-LOC in centrifuge training), by drugs, and by electrical stimulation. When circulation to the brain is interrupted, cerebral hypoxia results, so one should not be surprised to see NDEs and OBEs during acute clinical distress. So there is plenty of evidence to suggest that these experiences are a result of cerebral physiological distress.

There is also plenty of empirical evidence to suggest that consciousness is a brain process involving specific kinds of neural activity; e.g. specific damage to, or interference with, specific neural functions produces specific changes in consciousness.

Biology and physics suggest no plausible means by which any coherent activity of an individual can be maintained after irreversible brain death.

So there is a raft of empirical evidence to suggests that consciousness and its experiences are the functions of a living brain, none to suggest otherwise, and good reasons to think consciousness can't happen without a live brain. Draw your own conclusion  [;)]
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 18:46:21
A 'near death experience' (NDE) isn't an experience after death, by definition (the clue is in the name). The term 'clinical death' is widely used to mean temporary cessation of heartbeat and breathing, but it doesn't necessarily lead to actual death, which is irreversible.

NDEs and OBEs are known to be triggered by seizures, cerebral hypoxia (fighter jet pilots sometimes get them during brown-outs and G-LOC in centrifuge training), by drugs, and by electrical stimulation. When circulation to the brain is interrupted, cerebral hypoxia results, so one should not be surprised to see NDEs and OBEs during acute clinical distress. So there is plenty of evidence to suggest that these experiences are a result of cerebral physiological distress.

There is also plenty of empirical evidence to suggest that consciousness is a brain process involving specific kinds of neural activity; e.g. specific damage to, or interference with, specific neural functions produces specific changes in consciousness.

Biology and physics suggest no plausible means by which any coherent activity of an individual can be maintained after irreversible brain death.

So there is a raft of empirical evidence to suggests that consciousness and its experiences are the functions of a living brain, none to suggest otherwise, and good reasons to think consciousness can't happen without a live brain. Draw your own conclusion  [;)]


If all we have is this tiny infinitesimal moment, this quantum 'speck of time' compared to eternity, then the creator or evolution is a great cheat.

Dreams are different from an OBE in that a person very often wakes up after beautiful one struggling to remember it only moments later, dreams can usually only be fully remembered for a matter of minutes.

Unlike dreams a near- death events imprints itself as a vivid often very beautiful consistent memory, as was my case back in the day that never changers over time!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 21/06/2016 19:14:37
Biology and physics suggest no plausible means by which any coherent activity of an individual can be maintained after irreversible brain death.

After irreversible brain death, there are no NDE.

Biolgy and Physics are outside the realm of any experience after death, if there is any. Science did not prove so far that Dualism is wrong neither will prove it.

There are many reports by people who are honest. Many of them report the end of the NDE, like returning to the body or having to decide to come or not before that. This isn't coherent with seizures, drugs, hypoxia, or whatever else. The problem is proving that.

OBE are very significant in that they can be subject to trial. As I told before, Sam Parnia is conducting a multicenter double-blind trial on the subject.

If someday some person pronounced dead fulfills the protocol, that will not be explainable by any physical or biological process.


Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 21/06/2016 22:50:45
Biology and physics suggest no plausible means by which any coherent activity of an individual can be maintained after irreversible brain death.

After irreversible brain death, there are no NDE.

Biolgy and Physics are outside the realm of any experience after death, if there is any. Science did not prove so far that Dualism is wrong neither will prove it.

There are many reports by people who are honest. Many of them report the end of the NDE, like returning to the body or having to decide to come or not before that. This isn't coherent with seizures, drugs, hypoxia, or whatever else. The problem is proving that.

OBE are very significant in that they can be subject to trial. As I told before, Sam Parnia is conducting a multicenter double-blind trial on the subject.

If someday some person pronounced dead fulfills the protocol, that will not be explainable by any physical or biological process.



Please look at this testimony of a Romanian Man who was dead it is profound



Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Pseudoscience-is-malarkey on 22/06/2016 05:06:29
NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 22/06/2016 05:41:39
NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.

You can believe what you like , but the experiences are real glimpses into what come after death. What you are saying is like as a hypothetical answering a person or doubting him/her when he informs you he has just come back from the city of Timbucktoo, with you replying 'come of there is no such place" when in fact it is a real city in a small  African country by the name of Mali?

What you believe or what I believe is redundant to the actual truth, simply because Truth is Truth regardless of what our tiny finite minds think about

Alani
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 08:11:40
NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.

That's exactly what I said. Testimony is not evidence, although most people are honest almost for sure. Moreover, I said that OBE can be subject to evidence and if proved, there is no empirical justification for it.

Now, more philosophically, people who experience NDE are as honest as people who experience seizures, drug effects and so on and later report something similar to NDE. However, the reports of both groups are different in that NDE people often tell about a return before the end of the NDE (some feel a force that pulls them back or are even asked if they want to return before). Please tell me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 22/06/2016 09:42:06
If all we have is this tiny infinitesimal moment, this quantum 'speck of time' compared to eternity, then the creator or evolution is a great cheat.
Evolution is just a process. The idea of it being 'cheat' is just a subjective judgement you make.
Quote
Dreams are different from an OBE in that a person very often wakes up after beautiful one struggling to remember it only moments later, dreams can usually only be fully remembered for a matter of minutes.

Unlike dreams a near- death events imprints itself as a vivid often very beautiful consistent memory, as was my case back in the day that never changers over time!
Perhaps you've never had a lucid dream - where you know you are dreaming, and - sometimes - can even control the dream. Lucid dreams can be hyper-vivid, as you say OBEs are. I can still remember a few lucid dreams I had over forty years ago.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 22/06/2016 10:46:55
After irreversible brain death, there are no NDE.
Exactly; and near-death isn't death. NDEs happen when the brain malfunctions.

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Biolgy and Physics are outside the realm of any experience after death, if there is any. Science did not prove so far that Dualism is wrong neither will prove it.
It's not possible to prove that kind of negative any more than we can prove the absence of Russell's Teapot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot). The burden of proof lies with those who claim experience after death. However, it's clear that if quantum field theory is a broadly correct model of how the world behaves, the only relevant entities are protons, neutrons, and electrons; and the only relevant forces are gravity and electromagnetism; these entities cannot support complex processes like consciousness outside a complex material substrate such as the brain. Thermodynamics also tells us that without an energy source such processes can't persist, and neuroscience tells us beyond reasonable doubt that consciousness is a process involving interacting brain cells. These are three strong arguments against consciousness independent of a living brain before we get to the absence of any plausible model or evidence in favour.

If you want to hear how quantum field theory rules out such ideas, have a listen to this entertaining explanation by Sean Carroll (https://youtu.be/Vrs-Azp0i3k?t=1976) of the significance of the Higgs boson (the relevant part starts at 33 mins, but the whole thing is worth watching). His main point is that, while we don't know all the details, we now know the basic rules by which human-scale matter and energy behave, and, like the basic rules of a chess game, we don't have to be expert players to know that if someone suggests moves that, for example, require a rook to move diagonally, they can't be right.   

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There are many reports by people who are honest. Many of them report the end of the NDE, like returning to the body or having to decide to come or not before that. This isn't coherent with seizures, drugs, hypoxia, or whatever else.
Nobody doubts that people are honestly reporting their experiences, but it's the interpretation that is doubted. All the features you describe have been reported in induced NDEs and OBEs. Also, apart from some basic features (tunnels, white lights, etc.) that are clearly physiological, the details reported have features specific to the individual's culture and beliefs, which would not be expected if they were experiencing some common objective reality.

Quote
OBE are very significant in that they can be subject to trial. As I told before, Sam Parnia is conducting a multicenter double-blind trial on the subject.
I've followed the AWARE study since its inception, and it hasn't fulfilled the promise originally claimed. Reports were promised, then deferred and delayed, and when they finally released their results, several years late, there was nothing of particular interest (one instance of unexpected consciousness). I'm not holding my breath for anything more.
Quote
If someday some person pronounced dead fulfills the protocol, that will not be explainable by any physical or biological process.
That's a big IF, full of wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: puppypower on 22/06/2016 11:55:54
Another way to approach this question, is to make use of some theories in physics, instead of biology. For example, there are theories of alternative and/or parallel universes and extra dimensions. 

Say the brain, via consciousness, was able to generate a bridge to a parallel universe where it adds content. This is sort of what some religions have taught for centuries. The spiritual realms like heaven and hell, are not places one can go with our physical body, any more than an astronaut can beam into another dimension or parallel universe.  One would need to remove the material constraints, that limits one to this dimension; body, before they can D-jump to the new place. There is no proof of this, however, physics does provide theatrical framework from which the possibility might arise.

If you look at the eternal realms of heaven and hell, by tradition, their clocks are moving much slower compared inertial references. One lives for an eternity instead of 90 years. If we assume a physics explanation, the difference in time would be connected to relativity and time dilation.

For that much time dilation, the other realms would need to be in references very close to the speed of light, or even at the speed of light, where matter cannot go, according to special relativity. This is consistent with the traditions that the spiritual realms are not material but energy based. If the brain could generate an interface to a realm near the speed of light, any memory deposited there would be time dilated, and last forever, relative to earth reference.

If physics and engineering could build a device that can interface a parallel universe, where it deposits a self digestion program, which erases itself, and then go there a second time, a week later to retrieve the program, to find it is still undigested, science would be one  step closer.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 22/06/2016 13:48:03
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 16:44:54
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan

Can you describe your NDE?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 16:55:27
No, unfortunately no consciousness exists after death at all.  Consciousness is a mechanism of our minds, our brains, our neurons.  After death we no longer have a connection to these things.  The mind is a very powerful thing and is wondrous in its ability to manipulate perception.  That's why some believe so strongly in their near death experiences, because their minds were able to convince them with such fervor that what they were experiencing was real.  But it was really akin to someone taking some really strong acid.  It's just all perception.

Unfortunately when we die we die, and our brains, our minds, our subconscious and conscious all die with us.  If consciousness was its own entity, there would be zero need to see brain activity when we think.  There would be zero reason for a brain scan to pick up activity when we think and perceive.  If consciousness were separate, it would be separate.  But it's not.  In fact it's tied to our bodies in every way imaginable and test after test after test shows this.  If consciousness were separate, why would it turn off when we sleep?  Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of our conscious existence is emotional.  And emotions are directly tied to chemicals flowing through our veins.  If consciousness were separate, how would medications so easily impact it?  How could drugs so easily manipulate it?  How could being ill so easily deaden it?  How could brain injury eradicate it?  Everything about our consciousness is tied to our physical form, to our bodies reactions to different stimuli.  Nothing about our consciousness is independent.  So how when we die could it suddenly be?

No, there is no consciousness when we die.  There is zero evidence such a thing is possible and mountains upon mountains of evidence to show simply why it's not.  With all we know about physics, quantum physics, the nature of the universe and all things, what is there possibly that exists even theoretically that would allow a stream of consciousness to occur without neurons or some neural structure?  What would the mechanism be?  What would hold the information and perceive the information?  Where would this energy be stored?  How would it be accessed?  Are we to suspend all belief in physics, the universe, the nature of it, all that we know about it, and suspend belief in all that is real, to put forward a concept that when we die all that we were as a person is somehow magically transformed into some invisible, not made of particles, completely undetectable, yet sentient force that still remembers who we were, without the need for amino acid structures that hold our memories to begin with?  Nah... such things are fairytales and nice things to think about for sure.  Of course we all would like to believe there's more.  But c'mon now, real is real.  When we die we die.  So live each day with a purpose and the knowledge that you only get whatever days that you get here.  Make the most of them.  Cause ya only live once...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 22/06/2016 17:10:57
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 17:20:48
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"

On what basis can you make the statement that I know nothing about near death experiences, when you have no idea who I am?  If you have zero knowledge about me, then saying such things can only be from a standpoint of ignorance (i.e. ignorance = not having the information necessary to form an accurate opinion).

As far as my view goes, like I said; mountains upon mountains upon mountains of evidence towards my side of the argument, and in fact everything we know, everything we've learned about the universe, about physics, about all of it, gives zero credibility whatsoever to the concept that our consciousness somehow lives on.  Literally everything we know tells us otherwise.  Mountains and mountains of evidence on my side of the argument, and literally zero... zero... big fat zero amount of evidence lending credibility towards the other side.  So yeah, I'm pretty comfortable where my opinion lies.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 17:23:45
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"

Forget about other opinions as there will always be people thinking in different ways.

Can you describe your NDE?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 17:35:08
This world is a physical one and thus you'll find there nothing more than physical things.

That proves nothing beyond physical reality.

After dying, people disappear from this world and this is widely known, even before scientific foundation, perhaps even by some animals at least.

Using the Teapot by Russell, claiming there's nothing more than physical things need evidence, otherwise it's a teapot orbiting somewhere.

Antonio Damasio, who I praise so much and hope will write some more books, claims consciousness is fully explainable by firing neurons by studying emotions and neurological patients, but I disagree.

I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.



Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 22/06/2016 17:50:45
I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.
Good luck with that. I hope you can do a better job than Searle.

Post it up when it's ready.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 17:58:28
This world is a physical one and thus you'll find there nothing more than physical things.

That proves nothing beyond physical reality.

After dying, people disappear from this world and this is widely known, even before scientific foundation, perhaps even by some animals at least.

Using the Teapot by Russell, claiming there's nothing more than physical things need evidence, otherwise it's a teapot orbiting somewhere.

Antonio Damasio, who I praise so much and hope will write some more books, claims consciousness is fully explainable by firing neurons by studying emotions and neurological patients, but I disagree.

I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.

Everything we know... Every single thing that we know, every experiment that's been done, every bit of evidence that we have, lends zero credibility to the concept of life after death.  Nothing points to it. Nothing infers it. Nothing explains a mechanism for it.  Nothing lends credence to it.  Of all we have and all we've done there's still zero logical reason to believe in its possibility other than merely 'wanting to'. 

Let me ask you.. If you had the capability to take emotions out of the equation and look at it with complete objectivity.  If you could take the component of "liking it to be true" out of it... Then I'd like to ask what is it scientifically or logically that you've ever learned, ever seen, ever come across, ever been made aware of, that would lead you to towards believing in its existence?  If it was just a raw logical concept where your emotions or desires didn't come into play, what would be your reasons for choosing that side of the argument? 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 22/06/2016 18:00:50
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 18:09:31
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Very very good point!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 18:20:42
there's still zero logical reason to believe

Well, the logical reason dates back to Plato and Aristotle and is unsettled to this day. The substrata to that logic lye in front of your eyes.

As I told you before, until the day you can build a consciousness in a lab, however simple it is, you cannot prove that it depends only on atoms.

My epistemological discussion finishes here as this topic is about consciousness after death.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 18:27:53
there's still zero logical reason to believe

Well, the logical reason dates back to Plato and Aristotle and is unsettled to this day. The substrata to that logic lye in front of your eyes.

As I told you before, until the day you can build a consciousness in a lab, however simple it is, you cannot prove that it depends only on atoms.

My epistemological discussion finishes here as this topic is about consciousness after death.

I assure you, that day will come.  You make it sound like it should be easy.. Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play.  Not such an easy machine to build.  But that's only right now to say that consciousness has yet to be replicated. It lends zero to the other side of the argument that there is life after death.  It's not like right now all evidence ponts to there being one, and scientists are in a lab trying to prove it wrong. No, instead it's like I said, there is zero anything that lends credibility towards that ideal, other than merely because someone "wants it" to be true.  So I'd rather you answer the direct question I posed to you in my earlier reply, if you can. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 18:45:08
Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 22/06/2016 18:58:01
Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.
DaVinci's machine didn't require billions of components. And you're talking about an algorithm that would need to mimic billions of components and mechanisms, including ones that are not yet even fully understood.  So you are wayyyyy over simplifying the task at hand. 

But again, I ask that you please answer my direct question posed to you in an earlier reply, if you can...  Thanks. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 22/06/2016 23:43:36
IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 00:00:39
IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

Yes,  you are beyond oversimplifying it.  No, it would not be that easy.  This isn't chess we're talking about here.

I also really shouldn't have to spoonfeed you.  Scroll up and read my question about why you'd be on that side of the equation if emotions were taken out of it.  Scroll up for the specifics.  It's one page to scroll through. It shouldn't take you all that long...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 23/06/2016 00:18:25
If I asked you for a machine that could play chess better than any human 100 years ago you'd tell me it's oversimplication.

Now in the XXI century you say that creating an algorithm for the simplest form of consciousness is oversimplification.

Maybe we're missing something.

I'll scroll through tomorrow, as it's too late here by now. I promise.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 06:05:38
NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.

You can believe what you like , but the experiences are real glimpses into what come after death. What you are saying is like as a hypothetical answering a person or doubting him/her when he informs you he has just come back from the city of Timbucktoo, with you replying 'come of there is no such place" when in fact it is a real city in a small  African country by the name of Mali?

What you believe or what I believe is redundant to the actual truth, simply because Truth is Truth regardless of what our tiny finite minds think about

Alani
On what basis can you make such a statement that it's a real glimpse into what comes after death? How the heck do you know that's what after death would be? Based on what exactly?  Because you feel like that's what it would be like? Because you think that's what you were experiencing?

There's zero reason to believe in something that there's zero evidence in reality to support, merely because you feel like it. Fact is, I had the same experience.  I know the exact vividness you speak of, that same ethereal feeling. That same overpowering sense of beauty and wonder and peace and comfort. This sort of sensation and higher level thinking that I could never get under normal circumstances.  But I still let science rule my logic, I still didn't jump to such a wild conclusion, and that's cause reality matters. Cause facts matter.  They always will. And no matter how magical the experience was, I still knew that there is zero evidence in reality for life after death and absolutely no mechanism within anything we know about reality, within anything ever learned in physics or the sciences, literally zero mechanism within our entire body of knowledge, that would even begin to give credibility to how it possibly could be so.  And furthermore, there's mountains upon mountains of evidence supporting it not being possible supporting the fact that consciousness is completely tied to our physical form.  Every single possible point within which side would be right, literally every bit of fact and evidence, points to there being no life after death, period. So I care about facts.  Cause facts matter. And when there's that much evidence in front of me and literally no evidence, none at all, towards the other side, then yeah, there was no way that was a conclusion I was gonna jump to.  Cause it didn't matter how vivid an experience it was.  I learned a long time ago how to be objective, how to take my emotions out of the equation, and how to let my critical thinking skills arrive at conclusions instead.

And years later I found it was the right thing to have in fact done. Cause at first, it was this overwhelming and vivid experience that absolutely was on a higher level and that at first gave me struggle to not accept as some life after death experience.  Because I had thought just like you, this wow, that was surreal, so much more vivid and aware and just, well, peaceful and powerful and pleasant and just on a higher level.  Nothing in reality had ever felt like that, so how could reality explain it? But my critical thinking skills, rationality and logic helped guide me as always, and I arrived at the correct conclusion that it is merely how powerful the mind is, its hold on perception, and just how powerfully it can trick you. . And how did I know years later that I was right? Cause years later I did peyote and acid and tripped my damn face off, and at my peak of my trip,  I was right back in that realm. The exact same realm. Just as vivid, just as powerful, just as ethereal, no death necessary.  Just chemicals causing my brain to short circuit and bring me there.  I call it trip world.  That's what you experienced. Trip world, nothing more.  I know this cause I've experienced both.  I know the level was identical. I have that knowledge and experience.  Yes, the mind is that powerful all on its own. No new dimensions or wild concepts rooted in zero evidence that break all the knowledge of physics we know are necessary.  No death is necessary.  Just smoke some peyote eat some shrooms, while swallowing a bunch of tabs of acid and maybe smoking some hash. Trust me, you'll be back in that exact realm. I'll never forget the day I did all that, how high a level I was on that day tripping.. We to this day call that day "Utopia", because of how high a level of wisdom we were on.  It was the same realm. It was the day I learned with absolute certainty that what I had experienced years early was nothing more than a product of my own mind.  I knew it with certainty.  Cause it was the same level.  The same one.  Trip world.  No death necessary. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 06:44:37


By your own admittance you took acid and by that you are somehow, illogically an expert on the near death experiencing, however, "you are lying" there is absolutely no similarity between a near death experience and an acid trip. An acid trip is a form of self induced insanity.


It was the exact same realm. No death necessary. I know you don't wanna accept that, and maybe you've never tripped before, or like that anyway, but I assure you, it's the exact same realm. Sorry dude. They're identical. (I know, cause I've experienced both). 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 06:50:28
I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 07:05:39

Just by your repeating that statement you are reinforcing the fact that you are lying.  An acid trip is nothing like a near death experience, it is a form of self induced insanity "Dude" And I don't "wanna" accept  that because I do not believe what liars say . 

Below is an excerpt of someone who actually used LSD

Quote
I felt this 10 foot big man carrying me up some stairs. I felt as light as a feather. I thought I was going to heaven but when I finally opened my eyes I was back in the room, alive, with my friend sitting beside me. But then I thought I was dead. I didn't know I was alive. I got a glimpse of hell which you cannot imagine. It's nothing like what people say it is. It's all about repetition of your fears. I was on acid, so what I saw was strange. In reality of my sight, I saw my friend kill me again and again and again and again, forever. But the truth was that I was afraid that the only people I trusted would go against me and try and harm me. That was my greatest fear I guess, and death of course. So that's what happened. That's what hell's about.

No, I'm not lying whatsoever.  I'm relaying the facts.  You apparently know nothing about tripping so you really can't credibly give an opinion on it whatsoever.  But I can.  Cause I've experienced both.  Same realm.  No death necessary.  And anyone who has tripped knows that no two trips are the same. Posting someone else's trip to try and have knowledge on the subject is a failed exercise. And trust me, I'm the king of trip world.  That was my world.  Hell, I miss it sometimes.  But alas, adulthood. Yet still, anyone who's done it knows the different forms of trip can take and sometimes having the right guide can make all the difference. I brought so many people to that level. Because I knew how. Yes it was the same Realm. No death necessary. You obviously don't have any experience with it, so you really have no ability to dispute it. But please, spare me the calling me a liar garbage. If it's one thing I don't do it's lie.  I feel no need. Being the voice of blunt reality suits me far better.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 07:09:38
I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.

"Then be truthful" and stop trying to put yourself over as an expert on every topic on the forum and get a little humility in the process. The fact, however, as far as what you stated in this thread is that it is obvious that you have posted a very long essay of "terminological inexactitudes"?
I've never been anything but truthful. Now please cease and desist with your personal attacks. They are against the rules and not conducive to discussion. I have not attacked you at all and would ask you to refrain from doing it as well. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 07:41:54
And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 23/06/2016 16:27:02
And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 

If you indeed had a near death experience, which I reserve the right to doubt then "please give an account of it", so that I can reserve judgement?

So someone who talks about how people who have them should be believed now questions me on mine.  How ironic.  Yes, I absolutely had one.  And again please,stop calling me out as a liar.  And forgive me if I don't feel the need to share my very personal experience with a random internet stranger who'd be ready to pounce the second I post it.  I feel no desire to share my story with you nor feel any need to otherwise.

Quote
"identical to psychoses or bluntly put madness".
Lol that's just quite simply not true at all

Quote
By contrast during an acid trip, your heart is beating and supplying your brain with all the blood and nutrients it needs, and what is happening is that the LSD is causing random eletro- messages to be passed back and forward in the brain , to mimic an actual experience, which are extremely bizarre and always false.

Both experiences are always false, both products of perception.  I never claimed that the mechanisms by which those states are attained are identical, not whatsoever.  What I'm saying is that the end result is the same, the power of the mind to alter one's perception in some amazingly powerful ways was the same, regardless of what needed to fall into place for the mind to do such things.   The point is that it is not only pending death that cause the brain to have an altered perception that leads to some extremely powerful, vivid, higher level, other worldly, ethereal and memorable experiences.  That there are other ways to achieve the same altered perception result with no death necessary.  Ketamine administration for example has been widely shown to mimic NDE's completely.

Quote
Again by contrast most near death experiences are ordered, logical, beautiful, life changing and vividly remembered and absolutely nothing like an acid trip, hallucination or a dream in an active brain with a blood supply>

Can you tell me from your own experience what an acid trip is like?  Have you ever had one?  I will say that many, if not most, LSD or other hallucinogenic trips can be very disorderly etc.  My point is that there are some that are not, and that it is possible when tripping sometimes to have that exact same powerful experience, the same feeling of peace and higher level existence, that same ethereal feeling as if you've entered a completely different dimension and are in a completely different state of mind, where you see everything so clearly, so vividly, where everything is beautiful, and you feel more aware and connected than you ever have.  I know this because I experienced it directly.  I had an NDE and I have also tripped many times (many moons ago).  On some of these trips, especially once I learned how to rule them, I would absolutely be in that realm and overall the experience was identical to my NDE, as far as how my perception felt and senses felt, as well as my state of mind and clarity of thought.  I experienced both ends of my argument and remember the feelings of each side vividly, what I saw, how I felt, the state of mind I seemed to be in and what my perception felt like.  For all intents and purposes the 'level' I was on, the dimension I seemed to exist on, was identical. 

Now granted, not every trip, or most even, will produce such a sensation.  But can they?  Oh absolutely.  Because I know.  Because I experienced it.  And because many others via acid (or DMT, or Ketamine - plenty on google about those 2) have as well.  That's my only point.  That death is not the only trigger for NDE's.  And that chemically induced ones can be every bit as powerful and life altering.  Because perception is an incredibly powerful thing, and your mind rules it...

But you can have the last word.  I've said all that's relevant at this point.  I'm moving on.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 24/06/2016 18:20:34
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 24/06/2016 18:25:24
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan

Can you describe your NDE?

Yes here it is (I had a previous experiencing in 1994 which was much more detailed)


Disclaimer.

What I write below is subjectively true and I am not trying to make a case out of proving whether there is an existence after our mortal bodies perish. It is simple; I saw what I saw and it has a profound and lasting positive effect on me and how I now relate to others
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The night my heart stopped and I flat-lined


If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heart stopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions of existence.

Hello everyone please read this updated, edited version, which better describes what happened to me night my heart stopped beating in 2011

On the night of  18th, August 2011 at approximately 9.30 pm, my heart stopped beating numerous times, both at home and later on the  Hospital resuscitation table.

On resuscitation table due to third stage or total, AV heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping, flat- lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directly into my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions used over and over again in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own without  help.

I had taken a nap on that Thursday night, and a dear friend of mine, Tony Martin was somehow moved to phoned late at night, a thing he had never done before.

I woke up with the phone ringing due to his call, with great fear because my heart was reacting in a manner that I had never experienced until that moment, it was going heart crazy in my chest hesitating then beating and then, almost stopping completely,

I cried out to my daughter Desiree for her to get my wife to phone for an ambulance

My wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they got to my home in ten minutes. The hospital is less than a half kilometre from my home and I was there in five minutes and when I arrived, expert medical attention was immediate.

Note! If my friend of some thirty-five years, Tony Martin, had not phoned, from the town of George in South Africa to Johannesburg some thousand miles away, at the exact moment he did, I would never have woken up and would have died in my sleep.

I am sure God moved Tony that night to phone me at the exact moment he did, which for him was a very unusual hour at about 9 pm. Tony never phones me so late at night and maybe he can explain what made him call me or why he was moved to call me at that exact moment in  time.

His phone call woke me up from a deep sleep from which I would not have awakened and from and I would have died in my sleep, because I was unaware in my sleeping state the fact that my heart was going wild in my chest, a "somnambulist battle of life or death"

Tony could hear over the phone that there was something really wrong going on which me. He said over the phone “Alan McDougall you don’t sound right, are you OK?’ I replied “No”!! “Tony something is very wrong” “you phone back a little later”.

I put down the phone and could feel my heart actually vibrating in a frightening way, it would stop completely and I would lose consciousness for a while, and then regain awareness, but not know where I was, or who I was, as I struggled to survive, during this frightening life or death episode.

I became ghastly pale and started to sweat profusely. I did not realise at this stage know how very close to death I came that night.

It is very scary when I looked at wife or daughter and saw them actually becoming dimmer and dimmer in my eyes because my brain was being deprived of oxygen.

It was then that I began then to move in and out of consciousness on the very edge of death.

At the hospital, my blood pressure reading was zero.

I saw my daughter Desiree in the passage and called out weakly for her to tell my wife Denise, that I was having a heart attack.

I do not think my wife believed me, but after looking at me with my face which now looked like death and sweating body, she called the ambulance, which most fortunately to my survival reached our home in less than ten minutes. (South Africa's 911)

I now entered a life-threatening desperate state of AV heart block ( Heart stopping and starting) I recall very little of what happened to me that night, because I had begun to go in and out of consciousness, until I finally became fully conscious the next morning with a temporary heart pacemaker installed in my heart to keep me alive.

I had to wait a day or two in the hospital for Doctor Rodney King Cardiologist, to get my medical aid to agree to the fitting of a permanent heart pacemaker, under my skin in my chest wall. This pacemaker cost about sixty thousand South African Rand or about nine thousand American (USA) dollars.

I only conscious of a just a little of what was going on in those three hours that the team of committed doctors who refused to give up on me in the very difficult task of restoring my heart beat and save my life This was a battle of life or death

However, I have lately  begun to remember more and more about some rather odd things I saw and heard while on the resuscitation table that night. 

Denise, my wife was kept in the dark by the medical staff and did not know until the next morning how really sick her husband has been or that he had metaphorically knocked on the gates of death, survived to live again, hopefully, many more years as husband and father to his children.

Over the period of three hours, each time my heart stopped and I  flat-line, I went somewhere, not of this world and each time the emergency team of doctors at the Hospital battled to got my heart to beat  Each time it stopped I subjectively went into a comfortable dark void for an eternity and I came back. an objective few seconds later

Each time my heart stopped I seem to  go away for an eternity to elsewhere, but when they started it up again, I returned to life from this elsewhere seemingly in contrast, without even the smallest moment of time passing.

I remember being vaguely aware and conscious of what was going on around me. But kept going in and out of consciousness during the continual attempts at resuscitation.

The team of doctors and nursing assistants were desperately trying to get a needle into one of my veins. I have very poor veins and they are fairly deep under my skin and difficult to locate. Later back in the emergency care ward after I finally became fully conscious I noticed that both my arms and hands were full bruises and needle pricks.

It took three hours of effort on the resuscitation table before the doctors were able to stabilise my heart and to installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain my pulse between 65/110 beats per/minute, instead of the zero to 15 it had been beating/not beating most of the time.

I heard them call for atropine and adrenaline, which they injected directly into my heart. When even this did not keep my heart beating as it should, the electric paddles were used to shock my heart and get it beating as it should.

On my return to the emergency ward, I noticed both sides of my chest, ribs, or torso were very painful to touch as it hurt to breath for a day or two after the event

The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would have been impossible to revive me. I am 75 years of age now and would not have minded if I had died then'

But I suppose there must be some reason for me to carry on with life or activities yet to do because it is true that a whole lot of favourable coincidences came together to make it possible for me to survive, what should have been impossible to survive under any other circumstances.

I really came as close to total death that night as possible, without actually dying, and was fortunate enough to be brought back to quality life by a great team of doctors, to live again and be with my family and friends a little longer.

In fact, since the heart pacemaker was fitted I have felt healthier and maybe the heart irregularity was a long-standing problem of which I was unaware.

I vaguely remember being on the table with people pricking me with needles all over, my arms and hands.

Because I was continually being revived by the medical team , I floated in and out of consciousness, into the Other-World realms and then back to this one the resuscitation table, this continued until  my heart was fully supported by the doctors, who had managed to get my heart to beat with a temporary heart pacemaker.

Afterlife

I had no tunnel or meeting of a being of light, which is usual for the near death experience. I went directly into a gloomy large dark cave and saw countless people sitting in the dark gloom.

There was some enormous evil entity, so pitch black that it seemed like tar and did not reflect any light. Only later when I saw the Golden Light that I thought might be Jesus, as he approached the dark entity, it shrank away from him.

Was this dark entity Satan the Devil?

When I was elsewhere on the other side in some dimension or the other, I saw a huge tree with a large number of books all around its huge trunk.

In my opinion, this great tree was the "Tree of Knowledge ?

Just by attempting to read what was on the covers of those books, it was somehow brought to my understanding that within them, were all the answers to all my questions I had pondered over most of my life  These books also contained within them all the knowledge, wisdom and mysteries of existence.

Among the many books, was very much larger one, much larger than the other rest which was scattered randomly around the huge trunk of this beautiful tree. I assume the very large book was a consolidation of all that was in all the smaller books.

When I tried to lift the large book, I found  it was much too heavy for me to carry, so I decided to leave it there under the tree and return later for it.

Maybe when I finally do die and go to heaven, I will go back to that beautiful tree and retrieve this book which I think might the "The book of Knowledge"

During the moments that I flat-lined, I went somewhere outside of this earthly dimension into strange places outside of three-dimensional space and time as we know it is the physical universe.

I walked through a doorway of sorts and saw numerous people gathered apparently to welcome me into the afterlife.

I did not recognise any of them, maybe because the scenario too fleeting and was over in less than a blink of an eye.

Maybe they were some of my beloved passed over family members or friends,  but I cannot say what I saw was factual or not. However, what the were gathering for seemed to be was some sort of a welcome home party or  wedding reception.

Although not in this particulates event, I thought about my beloved Dog Bully who had died fifty years prior and remembered the many dreams I had when I felt his loving doggy presence.

When on the other side of life I also one saw a beautiful pulsating sphere of golden light that I took for the loving Spiritual Essence of the Lord Jesus, because to me he is the only he can emanate perfect peace and love.

I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last another six years and despite the great shock, I got that night, I am feeling much better and very alive and well.
Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Total AV heat block.

By Alan McDougall (2016)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 24/06/2016 18:29:31
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 25/06/2016 11:06:24
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 25/06/2016 17:21:08
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 25/06/2016 18:50:46
As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny...
Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.
Quote
It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 25/06/2016 18:55:02
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
Not exactly... memories are encoded in the connectivity and responsiveness of networks of neurons, and consciousness is a process involving patterns of activity across those networks.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 25/06/2016 19:00:35
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 25/06/2016 19:20:35
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...
That wasn't the question. Please read it again. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 25/06/2016 19:23:22

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!
I have no idea what that means.  This is science.  You either believe in evolution or you don't.  I'll take that as you don't.  Okie dokie.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 25/06/2016 19:27:22
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

I think that can be a good analogy. If you have all the hardware and no software and turn the computer on, you'll get nothing from it, even though it works and is functioning.

Software is that something it is lacking and must be delivered to it in some way, not necessarily physically, so that it will work.

I anticipate perfectionist people that I don't think this is the perfect analogy, or the problem of consciousness would be solved now.

Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.

I told about an aphorism, and thus it's not supposed to be a precision or scientists wouldn't need to study phylogeny any longer. As an aphorism, it only need to be true enough.

It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense. The brain can indeed work well enough without memories, especially for a baby. Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio, for instance, who describes children with hydranencephalia, who lack gray matter, and a person who had no [explicit] memory at all and had the greatest amnesia ever remembered, after an herpetic encephalitis.

Children with hydranenchepalia are diagnosed late exactly because in early ages gray matter doesn't make a difference. This doesn't mean that newborns have raw cotton inside their heads, as they can recognize their mother's voice from a lot of voices, something they learned in utero, and have many many more capabilities.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 00:08:01
Infinity Road by Alan McDougall

as I approach the infinite long dark night

I resist and resist it with all my might

I try and try to comprehend this end

to which all men must descend

---------------------------------------------------------------

is it a sleep that all must take?

or is it an eternal end that all must make?

I like to dream of awakening in light not dark

in a beautiful place to which all righteous men depart

--------------------------------------------------------------

do we sleep the sleep of forever?

or do we awake some other place together?

does the answer to this ultimate question

remain forever a process of eternal redemption?

------------------------------------------------------------------

on one glorious day from timeless sleep I awoke

and heard a beautiful and kind voice that sweetly spoke

my faithful son at last you have became to understand

exactly your place in this troubled land

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

you my beloved have truly never ceased to seek

the infinite destiny that in eternity for you I keep

so for you and your family no eternal death awaits

because of your zeal to know your fate

--------------------------------------------------------------------

soon I will bring you all to this most holy place

and there I will you never forsake

very soon, you shall hear a sweet call in the dark of night

come, come into the holy glory of the father spirit of mighty might

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I walk in the cool of evening along sweet meadows I have never seen

I smell the beauty of grasses that have never been

strange golden streams of crystal waterflows

as blue glory of mighty skies above glows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I search the long forgotten memories in the attic of my mind

along the twisted channels the very depth soul that I could not find

I see before me things so wonderful I knew from long ago

I puzzle over the enigma of knowing what I do not know

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

out there far beyond the knowledge of any man is revealed

something of such great mystery to it my heart had appealed

why have I on this one thing so many years stalled?

is this infinite knowledge from many man would be appalled?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

walking on through the shade of great trees that give eternal life

I hear the sweet forgotten voice that comes to free all from everlasting strife

high green new grasses in this new do land grow

as transparent waters chuckle dance, sparkle, and flow


By Alan McDougall (composed 16/2/2005)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 27/06/2016 03:40:45
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
Software need physical things to store it, such as CD, Hard drive, tape, flash disk, etc.
What is the equivalent for the soul?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 27/06/2016 06:46:58
Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 06:58:16
Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.

I tried but could not get it right so I will post it again as a separate reply!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 07:00:36

Existence -was -Existence-is -Existence-will be.

Within the writhing cosmic cloud of magnetic flux energy, that the always was, took on new form, evolved and coalesced again into a dense oneness of primordial glowing energy, which is and was and will be, the primordial source that moves between the everlasting cycle of order to chaos and chaos back to order.

It became thought.

Within a Timeless zone before existence came to be , a pool of infinite pure consideration held within it all the hopes, dreams,  for creating new order within the realms of existence and reality and these immense waves of pure magnetic thought gradually coalesced and a mighty sentient consciousness emerged out of previous chaos.

It knew itself and said "What am I"?
 
Then it said
 
I AM
 
I am recorded the evolution of creation and existence as follows below!
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I experienced time only in my dreams and the cup of my dreams ran over as do rivers that overflow their banks. I dreamed infinity of dreams in first instant, and infinity multiplied by infinity in the timeless zone I thought of creating all possibilities in one awesome now.

I awoke and thought the first thoughts within infinitely primordial mind I had become. Out of the realm of previous chaos I began to recreate outside the absolute realm and started the first realities based on new planes realms dimensions and textures.

I had drifted eternally in and out of awareness and within the mind flux of pure energy. I tossed out the foams singularities, started the flow of time and withdrew into itself outside time or space and sustained my creation as a static force of infinite power.

I became the Spirit as I twisted in agony of birth, boiling dissolving reforming writhing and vibrating, before existence or creation were reborn out of the thoughts programs of my mind I set up new realities and  began to organize myself into a mighty being of thought and infinite intelligence.

I looked outward and inward into the infinite boundless dark void and knew I was alone and became filled with unspeakable loneliness.

Now aware of infinite potential of the vast unploughed fields of dark nothingness, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizons of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I grew out of nothingness by my own will, before anything else existed and with the mobilities of my original thoughts spoke out and created all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.
 
Before I could create I who am everything, had to withdraw of myself to open up a void in which to place the universes I was about to grow out of the thought seeds resting in my mind, waiting for planting.

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I sewed seeds of universal radiant energy. Reality is the gem of my creation and the beauty of my achievement. I am it who lives, forever and forever. It is I who illuminated the everlasting darkness of the primordial void, with beams of dazzling light in living and translucent glory to share it with those who love me.

At the moment of the thundering dawn of creating existence, I sent out the primordial heat to light up the universes for the seeds of life to be planted within them. I waited and watched as my creation grew and expanded and it filled my being with joy and satisfaction and I knew my workmanship was good.

I walked down the road of forever and sat down on the throne of infinity. I am the light being and my everlasting purpose is to create and cause existence, I am both nothing and everything I am the light that dispels the dark.

With infinite power and intellect I the nameless- ever- existing- one, looked out at a new empty infinite dark void.  I am boundless I will create something with the potential to become like myself.

Therefore, I separated into an infinity of fundamental fragments yet remained connected to my created beings as the great creator and father spirit.

I set up polarities separating, the sons of light and the sons of dark and permitted enmity to exist between the forces of good and the forces of evil.

I decided to separate existence into dualities and I withdrew myself into everlasting light and banished the rebellious- one into everlasting darkness. In this way all sentient beings could freely choose in which duality to exist.

Opposing forces split the chasm, as light blazed to banish the dark and the dark flowed as thick darkness to blot out the light forever.

I set up a plan to correct my primordial mistake and bring back those caught up and lost to the evil darkness, into the living light again.

There was no cause to my existence I having no Cause I am therefore both the effect and affect sustains and shaper of all things that exist

My acts of creation are cyclic events and my purpose reason for my existence. I formulate everything in the thoughts of my Mind and knew the first numbers.

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals  I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no other proponent to my "first cause". I am the "immovable rock" and the" alpha point". I took these first fundamentals and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam where before there was but nothing. You exist because I exist!

We sang together the song of creation and the new universe began to vibrate with countless frequencies of light, glory translucent and everlasting with the vibrations of the song of existence.

The singer sang the song, the painter the painting, the creator the creation.

The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion
 
Regards Alan
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 27/06/2016 16:23:30
And here I thought on an intelligent scientific forum I'd be safe from ridiculous religious mumbo jumbo...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 27/06/2016 16:29:58
I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 20:39:38
I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 27/06/2016 21:38:15
Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 21:46:55
Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.

Who are you referring to ?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 27/06/2016 22:03:56
Mr. Alan, I mean I wouldn't like to watch again a fight between you and IAMREALITY on subjects out of topic. That's all.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 27/06/2016 22:06:20
This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 27/06/2016 22:15:46
This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 27/06/2016 22:23:55
You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 27/06/2016 22:35:28

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !

It's all tied together.  Please avoid personal attacks and reply to context only.  I noticed you didn't address the actual valid points of the post.  And it's a bit confusing how you're objecting to my veering off topic considering the things you had posted on the previous page; one of which directly references intelligent design evolution, from the all powerful creator or whatever.  In fact, in a sign of irony, you're even still pushing the concept in this very reply of yours!

Quote
"The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion"

For example, this addresses whether consciousness scientifically exists after death how exactly? 


This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.

What I posted was fine, and technically wasn't even addressed to you.  Furthermore, you asked me zero times to not talk about evolution.  Zero.  I mean, the history's all there.  Third of all, my question on evolution originally on page 3 was a perfectly valid question pertaining to the larger topic.  There was nothing wrong with it at all.  Fourth of all, I'm merely discussing things on a discussion forum.  Same as anyone.  And lastly, you accuse me of hijacking the thread yet I'm not the one who posted the religious stuff and long winded poetry on page 3.  Between your replying to a valid question of mine previously with the concept of intelligent design evolution, you posting that long winded religious screed, and after my seeing that (what I consider to be) nonsensical book that's coming out in my news feed and learning about it, it caused me to reply here with my thoughts, since that's where I first heard it from you to begin with.  I freely admit now in retrospect, that the post was reactive to my utter disgust at reading about the book, and since this thread is where I initially heard the concept, it's where I felt the need to vent my thoughts and very, VERY logical points against the concept.  But even if reactionary and impulsive, it was still merely one post. One. A simple paragraph.  Big deal.  Move on.  But now it needs to devolve into needless bickering and personal attacks why exactly?

If you don't appreciate my posts no one is forcing you to reply to them nor even read them.  If you feel they break the rules feel free to report them.  But please, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, stop making it personal and attacking me.  You said you were gonna ignore me, so ignore me.  No one is forcing you to reply.  Please just stop the attacks already.

(last thing I'll add:  I have zero interest in going round and round here.  It's been addressed now.  Any future personal attacks in this thread will be ignored, as will posts addressing me in any personal way.  Let's discuss context.  I had some very valid points in my intelligent design rant on page 3, and if you feel the need to rebutt them feel free, and we can discuss it.  Any other contextual replies can be discussed.  But I have no desire in any personal type communication.  Context only.  Thanks)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2016 00:28:51
You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.

He is on my ignore list "the only member in fact, but I can still look at his posts if I want to. I randomly opened his one about evolution and fell into his trap of debating evolution instead of consciousness . His only purpose was to irritate me which he did, so from now on I will never again look at anything he says of the forum , he is a disruptive influence on the forum better left alone.

From now on I promise you that I will keep to the topic of your thread and not wander off in other directions "Sorry for that!"
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 28/06/2016 10:13:19
I dont want to disturb anyone here, but the conscious come from evolution, now hold one, it is related from being alive, conscious is born from the time concept, an observer does not need a universe in order to observe, he need a universe in order to exist, to observe someone need a mind that is subjected to some sort of time cocnept, but universe is only based on speed of things, heat and cold, energy and that's it, the rest are properties provinient from the combination of those foor...

  Now the brain needs to measure thing, it need to have a pyshical way to tell the boddy to know when to eat, when to hunt, when to sleep. when is going to rain, and for that the brain need exterior references, and he also needs a conscious state of mind, a small portion of the brain which can be easly accesed by the body when the body needs to meassure, when the body needs to think...
 Not strong enought that the brain would loose control, not too weak that the body reflexes would be compromised, so it give us 10%...
   Does consciousness exist after death? Most probably, no!
 Liefe and evolution must be related with death or you end up loosing all the chemistry process that born the brain, and with this ignoring the necessity of why is there a conscious state of mind in the firt place, missing the begining one can't possible expect to understand the end...
  and thank god it most likely ends, humans are not build for eternity, we need to die, witch should be like fall asleep, do you have fear to sleep, or can you do racional psysical task while sliping? See thats my awnser for you, brain creates conscious to observe, tht creates time to measure anything, so the anwser is no, it doesn't...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Thebox on 28/06/2016 10:30:59
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: tkadm30 on 28/06/2016 11:07:04
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

I would say Yes, its possible that consciousness survives death, given that the brain may not be the source of consciousness. There's simply no physical evidences that consciousness could not exist without the brain.

Quote
The scientific confirmation of the existence of consciousness in unicellular organisms and plants certainly establishes that the brain is not the source of consciousness. Several decades back, research in medical science has also proven that the brain is not the source of consciousness. In 1970, Robert White and his team successfully transferred the head of a rhesus monkey to the headless body of another monkey. The monkey survived for 8 days.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2016 12:46:21
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.


Consciousness cannot be equated to the CPU it is equated to the software which is non-material.

At least for the first time, in this post I got what you meant although what you said is was back to front as usual!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2016 13:16:08
"As we debate consciousness maybe we should reflect on what the truth is relative to each of us".

Whatever, I believe or you believe it makes no difference to the what the real actual truth of the matter is, the truth is the truth regardless of belief or speculation, although we might have actually latched onto the truth without knowing it.

Science then becomes the best tool, but not the only tool to prove the truth of our thought beliefs or speculations

Thus; the universe might have needed consciousness to exist, which is the belief of some, or that consciousness was not a prerequisite to the existence of the universe , or the universe created consciousness. Whatever, the truth of those questions will be the truth even if we debate it for an eternity .

But as thinking beings why not debate, both within the confines of our own minds and with others, who know things we do not, in an eternal effort to find ultimate truth?

The actual real truth of this question is a mystery, no one knows the answer, so all is just speculation or belief based systems.

Henry Fords consciousness led to the creation of his Model T car and the totally new unique idea of mass production in his factories. In his case consciousness came before creation so it a too far a stretch to suggest that something similar was the cause of the universes existence?

Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

(My preference is number 4)

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 28/06/2016 15:19:58
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.

Pretty much exactly.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 28/06/2016 15:28:51
IAMREALITY

You are on my ignore list and I do not look at anything you post, just thought I would let you know!

Best Regards?

Alan
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 28/06/2016 15:50:34
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

I would say Yes, its possible that consciousness survives death, given that the brain may not be the source of consciousness. There's simply no physical evidences that consciousness could not exist without the brain.

Quote
The scientific confirmation of the existence of consciousness in unicellular organisms and plants certainly establishes that the brain is not the source of consciousness. Several decades back, research in medical science has also proven that the brain is not the source of consciousness. In 1970, Robert White and his team successfully transferred the head of a rhesus monkey to the headless body of another monkey. The monkey survived for 8 days.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

Second of all, that paper was based on philosophy not science.  It uses an extremely loose definition of sentience, defining every living cell as sentient.  Based on that paper, every living cell that exists would have sentience that survives death.  Are we to assume you believe every cell of every plant, bacteria, animal and otherwise, every cell goes to heaven in your view?

But that's another issue in the paper, it doesn't believe in God, or heaven:
Quote
Even though the attempt toward mechanization of nature served as an important driving force behind the scientific revolution, it also created an image of a clockwork universe set in motion by an intelligent first cause. Such machine analogy is also applied to living organisms. However, the view that a supernatural being, God,54 is external to living organisms and that He imposes form on matter from the outside (intelligent design) is also reductionistic, and shows a logical fallacy.

No, instead the paper is all about reincarnation.  That upon death, the soul enters a new body.  Is that what you believe?
And would that really be consciousness surviving?  I've always said that if reincarnation existed, but our new mind had no memory whatsoever of our old, then isn't it really a distinction without a difference?  Would it matter that it was the 'same' soul, if as far as it was concerned it was 'new'? Would that really be consciousness surviving at all??
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 28/06/2016 15:51:40
IAMREALITY

You are on my ignore list and I do not look at anything you post, just thought I would let you know!

Best Regards?

Alan

Alan,

No one cares.  Just thought you should know.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 28/06/2016 15:57:33
Henry Fords consciousness led to the creation of his Model T car and the totally new unique idea of mass production in his factories. In his case consciousness came before creation so it a too far a stretch to suggest that something similar was the cause of the universes existence?
100% absolutely it is too far.

Quote
Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

The answer is 3, with a 5 thrown in.  The universe didn't create consciousness.  The universe created spacetime, which contained raw energy, which condensed into matter, which formed into structures, which eventually harbored organic chemicals, which eventually over millions or billions of years organized into rna, which over millions or billions of years became dna, which led to living cells, which over billions of years evolved into complex beings capable of consciousness.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: tkadm30 on 28/06/2016 17:54:36
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

NDE is an evidence that consciousness may survives death.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2783030/Research-near-death-experiences-reveals-awareness-continue-brain-shut-down.html

Quote from: IAMREALITY
Second of all, that paper was based on philosophy not science.  It uses an extremely loose definition of sentience, defining every living cell as sentient.  Based on that paper, every living cell that exists would have sentience that survives death.  Are we to assume you believe every cell of every plant, bacteria, animal and otherwise, every cell goes to heaven in your view?

I believe consciousness is beyond the material realm of existence. Life and consciousness are deeply interconnected. No consciousness, no life...

Quote from: IAMREALITY
No, instead the paper is all about reincarnation.  That upon death, the soul enters a new body.  Is that what you believe?
And would that really be consciousness surviving?  I've always said that if reincarnation existed, but our new mind had no memory whatsoever of our old, then isn't it really a distinction without a difference?  Would it matter that it was the 'same' soul, if as far as it was concerned it was 'new'? Would that really be consciousness surviving at all??

Assuming consciousness originates from quantum interactions in living organisms, I believe consciousness could happens in creating reality through entanglement of space and time. The universe could therefore be a product of our consciousness and death an illusion humans have adopted through religions and culture. What must be researched is how life occurs in immortal organisms.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2503370/Quantum-physics-proves-IS-afterlife-claims-scientist.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality#Organisms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentric_universe
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 28/06/2016 18:27:16
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

NDE is an evidence that consciousness may survives death.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2783030/Research-near-death-experiences-reveals-awareness-continue-brain-shut-down.html


NDE's most certainly are not.  They're merely evidence that the brain is capable of masterful perceptive manipulation.  It's fascinating what it's capable of. 

In relation to your 'study':

http://doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/ (http://doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Thebox on 28/06/2016 22:54:46


1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

(My preference is number 4)

1) The Universe exists without consciousness, consciousness is not something that create an Universe although consciousness can create illusions.

2)I prefer consciousness was created in the Universe ,

4)  Doubtful,

5)Consciousness is energies state of being self aware in 3 dimensional form .

Do not make the mistake of thinking consciousness exists after death, information exists after death but not your consciousness, Antoine Lavoisier discovered nothing is ever lost, but he never accounted for consciousness, the ''energies'' that are within you contain information, this information is you but is processed by the brain and called the consciousness, when you pass away your energies return to join the cosmos whole, information of you fragmented all over the cosmos, it is quite beautiful to consider we retain ourselves in information form and the information can never be lost, a bit transferring from consciousness to the ''master boot record'', retrieving the information is however complex with the instant fragmentation.

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 28/06/2016 23:51:33
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is might be as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 29/06/2016 00:25:36
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.

Lol
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 29/06/2016 11:26:33
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is might be as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.

Here is another Poem I wrote sometime ago, about death and what I think happens in the moments after we die and leave our mortal bodies.

Emmanuel's Light (Emmanuel is God)
 
A poem by Alan McDougall 2001

Come fly towards majestic Orion with me
At great speed to our majestic god we flee
Through a wide river at last we fly
Reaching out to a great light beyond the sky

Towards the sides of the north nearer and nearer we flew
Arrayed in spotless white robes given to you
Across a vast space of infinite night
Together clothed in glory we continued our flight

Oh great heavenly cavern so measureless to man
See before majestic Emmanuel gather all who can
By mighty angels through glorious clouds we are driven
Closer and closer to gods mighty throne in the midst of heaven

At last to those mighty gates of heaven we came
Baptized by El Shaddias light all were the same (El Shaddia is another name of God)
In joyful luminous glory all creation did sing
By that stupendous realm of the holy king

A mighty voice shook all creation and rang through the air
Saying loud gather all around great EL Shaddais colossal chair
Look at god’s right a wonder is seen to rise
“Oh my beloved son at last I can give you your PRIZE”

Bathed in beautiful grandeur of the one who had atoned
Countless multitudes stood quiet before Emmanuel enthroned
Joyfully before Emmanuel at last
Faces glowing by lakes colored by golden riven glass
Rejoicing at a life that would now never pass

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 29/06/2016 14:22:26
 [::)]
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 29/06/2016 14:26:19
Here's my own :

Nothing happens when you die
For God is nothing but a Lie
Your mind will turn to only dust
Your theory Alan, is a bust...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: phyti on 29/06/2016 16:11:36
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 29/06/2016 16:35:10
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.

Hey, I know that book!  It's a good work of fiction!

As far as your thoughts on NDE's, I couldn't agree more.  You pretty much nailed it.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 29/06/2016 18:21:41
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.


"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 29/06/2016 18:46:44

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

The book is a work of fiction, so no matter what passages are chosen it doesn't much matter at all, does it.  Not to mention all that's ever done is cherry picking when it comes to quoting that work of fiction, be honest with yourself here.

And it's a bit hypocritical to call the poster out for using a religious basis, when they did so SPECIFICALLY to address your injecting of religion into the debate no?  Were you not the one who repeatedly in this thread has injecting religion?  Did you really just try to admonish that poster for it?  Merely because this time the use of religion didn't suit your purpose?  I mean, just, wow...

And furthermore, you didn't experience any 'reality' outside of this physical reality.  You experienced a powerful mental perception that you perceive as having been reality.  But reality has a very distinct meaning.  The thing has to actually be real.  Unless you can show even the slightest shred of evidence or otherwise that this magical fairy other dimension exists, then what about it could possibly be constituted as real?  If something is real, shouldn't there be even the slightest shred of evidence of its existence?  I mean, anywhere at all?  I mean, i can understand an argument of "you can't prove it's not" so to speak, since ya can't prove a negative.  But a claim that it is needs to be backed up with even the slightest shred of evidence at all.  And as of yet, in our entire history of existence, there is zero credibility or evidence pertaining to this magical dimension you speak of.  Literally zero.

And lastly, the poster did answer the question themselves.  Quite directly actually.  In fact, it's right there in what you quoted.  I'm not sure how you missed it.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 02/07/2016 18:01:55

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

The book is a work of fiction, so no matter what passages are chosen it doesn't much matter at all, does it.  Not to mention all that's ever done is cherry picking when it comes to quoting that work of fiction, be honest with yourself here.

And it's a bit hypocritical to call the poster out for using a religious basis, when they did so SPECIFICALLY to address your injecting of religion into the debate no?  Were you not the one who repeatedly in this thread has injecting religion?  Did you really just try to admonish that poster for it?  Merely because this time the use of religion didn't suit your purpose?  I mean, just, wow...

And furthermore, you didn't experience any 'reality' outside of this physical reality.  You experienced a powerful mental perception that you perceive as having been reality.  But reality has a very distinct meaning.  The thing has to actually be real.  Unless you can show even the slightest shred of evidence or otherwise that this magical fairy other dimension exists, then what about it could possibly be constituted as real?  If something is real, shouldn't there be even the slightest shred of evidence of its existence?  I mean, anywhere at all?  I mean, i can understand an argument of "you can't prove it's not" so to speak, since ya can't prove a negative.  But a claim that it is needs to be backed up with even the slightest shred of evidence at all.  And as of yet, in our entire history of existence, there is zero credibility or evidence pertaining to this magical dimension you speak of.  Literally zero.

And lastly, the poster did answer the question themselves.  Quite directly actually.  In fact, it's right there in what you quoted.  I'm not sure how you missed it.

I experienced what I  experienced and I have absolutely no interest in anything you have to say because it is always argumentative.


Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 03/07/2016 02:07:48

I experienced what I  experienced and I have absolutely no interest in anything you have to say because it is always argumentative.
Do you have any interest in finding out what was actually happened to you? Was it real or just something happened in your brain? Have you ever experienced vivid dream or lucid dream?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: phyti on 04/07/2016 19:55:57

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

He wrote a letter to the Corinthian congregation, in which he describes a vision he had while still living. The vision seems to involve an introspection of his own faith, with an effort to convey his dedication to working on their behalf.
"Heaven" has varied meanings, and as usual depends on the context.

Jesus used illustrations to convey ideas to his disciples. The rich man lived a life of luxury, while Lazarus the beggar lived a life of hardship. Both are in Hades (Greek for the grave), but Lazarus with a favorable judgment and the rich man with an unfavorable judgment (his faith was his wealth). In a real "hell", a finger dipped in water is not going to provide relief! Their conversation is just part of the story.

 Consider the mind as a small volume of space where the behavior of matter is regulated by the same laws of physics as in the whole universe.

 When a person hallucinates or dreams or is under hypnosis, the images are real in the mind of the person, corresponding to real brain activity, but not corresponding to anything outside the mind.
Then there is the greatest misnomer of all, "movies"/"motion pictures", where a person watches a series of still pictures and sees objects in motion. The motion can only be a product of the mind, i.e. mental interpretation.
Add to that any type of pixel screen that displays moving images. The pixels only switch on or off or vary in color or intensity. Another case of motion by the mind.
Our experiences are real but relative to something else and not absolute. The mind is in part an image processing organism, and our knowledge is based on models/abstract images which only approximate the real world.
We observe the world indirectly (via light) and have no idea what it "really" is.

 Has anyone asked why the medical profession refers to it as "near death experience"?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 09:52:23
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
Quote
Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 09:59:12
Consciousness cannot be equated to the CPU it is equated to the software which is non-material.
The computer analogy is not useful here. The empirical evidence points to consciousness being a brain process, a particular subset of the patterns of neural activity in an active brain.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 10:01:00
Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?
The evidence suggests #2.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 05/07/2016 12:18:34
Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?
The evidence suggests #2.

What evidence, please?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 12:48:14
Has anyone asked why the medical profession refers to it as "near death experience"?
Why should they ask (isn't it self-explanatory)? and why the medical profession, particularly? IIRC it was French philosopher & psychologist Victor Egger who coined the term at the end of the 19th century, and it was taken up by American psychiatrist Ray Moody in 1975.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 12:51:36
What evidence, please?
The evidence that all the conscious beings we know of are products of evolution and are constructed out of materials common in the universe. So, to the extent that conscious beings are the result of processes governed by the laws of the universe, we are creations of the universe. This is not to imply any purpose or intent, simply the effects of the 'unwinding' of a very low entropy starting state to (eventually) a high-entropy end state.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 05/07/2016 17:06:23
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 17:38:07
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

Yet Another NDE Revelation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-x1boYG1L8)
Fixed your URL - you forgot to put it in url tags.

OK, if you'll watch this video (I recommend the whole thing, it's fascinating stuff, but for the relevant bit skip to 33 mins):

The Fundamental Nature of Reality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrs-Azp0i3k)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 05/07/2016 17:48:54
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.


Sorry,  but a video about one single person who really really swears he saw heaven and hell, is not enough for me to suspend belief in all fact, all logic, all science, all evidence that points to there being zero reason to believe in such things, and also zero evidence other than personal perception stories to give credibility to the notion.  This person would also swear that the world he sees is not actually entering his eyes upside down.

The mind is a very powerful thing indeed, and perception is what rules us, for we are slaves to it.  And the mind can create even far more powerful perceptions than what this gentleman experienced.  It is probably limitless what our brains could convince us was real, that in fact hadn't been.

To believe in this consciousness after death is merely to have 'faith' in something with zero actual evidence to lend credibility to its existence, and instead has mountains upon mountains of evidence against it.  To believe is to literally have to suspend belief in all that we know, all that we've learned, all the facts available, all of physics, all of science, all of logic and reasoning.  And all that is far too much for me to abandon merely because I want to have 'faith'.

The fact is that in reality, all that we know gives zero credibility to the concept.  And in fact, science has shown in so many ways that there is no god nor spirituality necessary for anything in the universe, including consciousness, to be created.  The faith is merely unnecessary.  There have been so many things that once were attributed to god, that people would've sworn could only have been explained by god, that have since been proven by science to not require him whatsoever.  God is merely the go to crutch for things we have not yet understood nor explained.  But if there was no need for god, if god was taken out of the equation, and 'faith' in him was taken out of the equation, would people still be so adamant in their beliefs in life after death?  In consciousness surviving?  I'd wager in a world in which people grew up never hearing nor thinking about god, in which religious stories written by man weren't shoved down their throats, in a world in which all they knew was science, logic and fact and the concept of god never existed, that you would have very few believing in consciousness after death.  Because all they would've known was reasoning, and logic, and facts, and science, and they'd have no reason to believe otherwise. Cause there is zero evidence of otherwise.

And if consciousness is independent in nature and concept, then why can we 'feel' where it resides?  Why when we think, do we sense it in the middle of our brains, right where the physical construct for thoughts would be?  Why would could I not think down by my feet, or my stomach?  Why wouldn't I just have an ever present sense of my consciousness without a need for me to 'feel' where it resides at all?  Furthermore, why would medications affect exactly what I think?  Why would mood, different chemical reactions and quantities within my body affect what I think?  Why are my thoughts directly related to how much sleep I have; what mood I'm in; what my state of health is; what medicines are in my body; or a multitude of other very real and physical influences?  Why is my consciousness 100% generated by those influences, chemical processes and brain activity?  Why would it not be unchanged regardless of physiology? 

Why is everything I think based on memory, which is a very physical and biological process?  Why suddenly, only when I die, would this magical fairytale concept occur?  How when I die, would suddenly all my memories, which are amino acids and other very real biological and physiological realities, become poofed into this 'energy' or whatever that would live on?  And if this didn't happen, and my memories remained with my body, how would I even know who I was?  How would this consciousness even matter without memory there for sake of identity?  What have you ever learned in science or reality whatsoever would allow these physical memories to poof into this 'energy' state?  And if consciousness were independent, this force that can transcend time and space and have this beyond the universe power, why would it need such a complex structure as the brain to physically store and process memory?  Why wouldn't that memory concept be built into this 'consciousness'?  Why isn't anything built into it?  Why is the body and brain necessary for all that it is and all it will be while on this earth?  From mood, to timing (no consciousness while we sleep), to medicinal influence, to all of it? 

Why when in this spacetime would everything it is be dependent on all that is physical and real?  Fact is, there are no logical nor reasonable answers to these questions other than "well, cause that's just the way it is!  But really, when you die, suddenly the 'soul' is capable of all of that on its own cause that's just how it works!".  Well, sorry, but I think it should take a bit more than that.  And there is literally zero evidence that gives credibility to what I consider to be such an absurd notion.  But I would really be interested in seeing how you'd answer these questions nonetheless...

Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 05/07/2016 17:49:42
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 05/07/2016 17:52:33
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: phyti on 05/07/2016 19:01:37
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 05/07/2016 19:23:56

DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
AFAIK it evolved from simpler chemical structures, such as RNA.
BTW, does it have anything to do with the topic here?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 05/07/2016 19:46:30

DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
AFAIK it evolved from simpler chemical structures, such as RNA.
BTW, does it have anything to do with the topic here?

Yes, you're correct.

It is all traced to chemical reactions/evolution combined with billions of years of time.  It has been shown that all the ingredients necessary for life are readily available in the universe and that complex organic compounds can be formed quite readily from simple ingredients; without much effort or tinkling required at all in fact.  And that's what we've been able to do in just a smidgen of time.  Imagine what could arise from billions of years worth of it.

As far as the relevancy, I understand your point, but I guess I see the relevance in that once again the hand of god is trying to be implied, in a thread that cannot escape that fictional character's need to be included in any explanation as to how consciousness could possibly exist after death.  So I guess it's relevant in the sense of one side trying to show evidence that the fictional character actually exists, thereby giving credibility to the argument that 'life' is possible after death, since other than that fictional character as evidence, and the 'faith' that goes along with believing in such stuff, there is no other evidence that would lend credibility to the concept whatsoever.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 05/07/2016 20:02:08
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?

Are you trying to imply the answer to that is 'god'?  If so, I ask you this... If this fictional 'god' were real, and was all mighty all knowing and all powerful as is claimed, and has the power to create anything and everything and all that there is and ever will be... I ask you then why did he choose such complexity, to choose something that took billions of years to evolve ON ITS OWN to form us.  Why make the structure so overly complex and so full of flaw, when he could've just created us?  Why would the universe itself be so full of complexity, so full of the laws of physics, so vast, so much about it that has zero to do with us at all.  Why would there be need for such complexity and mind blowing scale?  Why would it all exist in such a way that has no care about us whatsoever?  As far as we're concerned, we took billions of years to become what we are.  Why wouldn't we have simply just 'existed'?  If you had the power of creation to create whatever you wanted, would you take your theoretical magic wand and simply create us, or would you sit there and say "nah, I'm gonna make it happen via complex particles bound by complex quantum physics and bound by greater physics and have those particles create simple structures that over billions of years can create more complex structures which over billions of more years can create complex but fatally flawed and evolved from apes human beings?  How does that possibly make any sense?

But I guess that's a religious discussion on its face, and a whole other huge discussion that would be had.  But since 'god' would be so closely related to the concept of consciousness after death, I do find a discussion about its concept to begin with to have merit.  Because I can't escape the conclusion that if religion overall ceased to exist, if it never existed, if it were taken out of the equation, that those who believed in consciousness after death would suddenly be few and far between, and regarded probably as lunatics.  And those who saw the 'visions' would simply chalk them up as products of perception without a second thought.  Would they still believe they were seeing 'heaven'? Of course not, for they wouldn't have been taught by man from man made stories that heaven was even a concept.  So they would then have to believe that their visions were warping them to some dimension science has never perceived, that there's no evidence for, that no ones ever been to, that no science nor physics hints at, and that there's no reason whatsoever in reality to believe in, and I can't for the life of me be convinced they'd draw that conclusion from their vision.  It would make far more sense that they'd suddenly believe without doubt that what they experienced was a powerful mental hallucination and nothing more. 

Take the 'crammed down their throats from birth, pushed by society, brainwashed repeatedly into their psyche, created by man' concept of 'god' out of the equation, and I'd be hard pressed to see how that man in the video would still believe so fervently in his conclusion.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 06/07/2016 00:23:23
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
Quote
Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...

I am impressed by your bookshelf and appreciate that you have read Antonio Damasio. I'm sorry my posts are opaque and fragmentary and that this one looked nonsensical to you.

I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 06/07/2016 01:55:28
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
Quote
Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...

I am impressed by your bookshelf and appreciate that you have read Antonio Damasio. I'm sorry my posts are opaque and fragmentary and that this one looked nonsensical to you.

I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.

What you post make perfect sense to me and I am baffled by that hurtful comment to a valuable interesting member like you

Keep up the good work and ignore them

Peace and Light!

Alan McDougallL
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 06/07/2016 04:39:11
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 06/07/2016 04:42:33
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?

Are you trying to imply the answer to that is 'god'?  If so, I ask you this... If this fictional 'god' were real, and was all mighty all knowing and all powerful as is claimed, and has the power to create anything and everything and all that there is and ever will be... I ask you then why did he choose such complexity, to choose something that took billions of years to evolve ON ITS OWN to form us.  Why make the structure so overly complex and so full of flaw, when he could've just created us?  Why would the universe itself be so full of complexity, so full of the laws of physics, so vast, so much about it that has zero to do with us at all.  Why would there be need for such complexity and mind blowing scale?  Why would it all exist in such a way that has no care about us whatsoever?  As far as we're concerned, we took billions of years to become what we are.  Why wouldn't we have simply just 'existed'?  If you had the power of creation to create whatever you wanted, would you take your theoretical magic wand and simply create us, or would you sit there and say "nah, I'm gonna make it happen via complex particles bound by complex quantum physics and bound by greater physics and have those particles create simple structures that over billions of years can create more complex structures which over billions of more years can create complex but fatally flawed and evolved from apes human beings?  How does that possibly make any sense?

But I guess that's a religious discussion on its face, and a whole other huge discussion that would be had.  But since 'god' would be so closely related to the concept of consciousness after death, I do find a discussion about its concept to begin with to have merit.  Because I can't escape the conclusion that if religion overall ceased to exist, if it never existed, if it were taken out of the equation, that those who believed in consciousness after death would suddenly be few and far between, and regarded probably as lunatics.  And those who saw the 'visions' would simply chalk them up as products of perception without a second thought.  Would they still believe they were seeing 'heaven'? Of course not, for they wouldn't have been taught by man from man made stories that heaven was even a concept.  So they would then have to believe that their visions were warping them to some dimension science has never perceived, that there's no evidence for, that no ones ever been to, that no science nor physics hints at, and that there's no reason whatsoever in reality to believe in, and I can't for the life of me be convinced they'd draw that conclusion from their vision.  It would make far more sense that they'd suddenly believe without doubt that what they experienced was a powerful mental hallucination and nothing more. 

Take the 'crammed down their throats from birth, pushed by society, brainwashed repeatedly into their psyche, created by man' concept of 'god' out of the equation, and I'd be hard pressed to see how that man in the video would still believe so fervently in his conclusion.


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 06/07/2016 06:54:46


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan

I have spoken the truth above.  And nah, pontius is now nothing more than a rotting corpse, and he washed his hands merely at his role in the death of a mortal. But such is now long gone history. But I thought you didn't want to inject religion into this discussion? But I do believe the discussion can have merit.  If you choose to have that discussion on religion, I'd be interested in your answers to the questions on the topic I posted above.  They are quite relevant and logic based. But if you wanna stick merely with the "it's true cause I want it to be" defense I totally would understand. 

Or we can just move along from the religious discussion. I'm ok with whatever. 

(and I would argue that truth is science and reality, the lies and deception religion, and that the truth was standing before pontius, and that truth was that Jesus was but a man)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 06/07/2016 12:30:16
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 06/07/2016 12:41:18
What you post make perfect sense to me and I am baffled by that hurtful comment to a valuable interesting member like you...
It wasn't intended to be hurtful, but an honest response that I couldn't make sense of his post.

Since Kasparovitch's post makes perfect sense to you, and I'm still in the dark as to just what he meant, perhaps you can explain it to me? I'd appreciate that.

Incidentally, I gave my (negative) opinion on the video link you posted; what did you think of the one I posted for you?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: kasparovitch on 06/07/2016 13:36:24
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...

I'm happy that things are more clear now.

I'll study the subject better so that I may offer a more consistent opinion.

I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.

I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed. My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.

For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 06/07/2016 14:18:58
I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.
I said foetuses don't have memories to begin with, i.e. at implantation they are just an undifferentiated bundle of cells. They can't achieve memory (in the conventional sense) until the CNS is sufficiently developed.
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I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed.
If you mean that once memories can be formed, they can also be forgotten, I won't argue - for example, the vast majority of episodic memory soon fades beyond conscious access.
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My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.
Quite a few people report very early memories - including of birth or even earlier - but there's no good evidence that these are more than imaginative confabulations. Memories of the first year are also debatable. The problem is that children are particularly liable to elaborate and incorporate episodic descriptions from family and friends into their own autobiographical memory (adults do it too, but less frequently). So when a parent or relative describes some episode or even shows a photo of those early times, it may be remembered in later years as a subjective experience, with little means to falsify it. I have one or two of those that I was able to check and discovered that they didn't really happen as I remembered them.

Just for interest, and to emphasise the unreliability of memory, particularly episodic memory, here are a few links to articles on the topic:

List of Memory Biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memory_biases)
How Much of Your Memory is True? (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/03-how-much-of-your-memory-is-true)
Memory Distortion & Invention (http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/02/how-memories-are-distorted-and-invented.php)
False Autobiographical Memories (http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/2008/02/04/false-autobiographical-memorie/)
Seven Sins of Memory (http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/02/7-sins-of-memory-complete-guide.php)
The Memory Doctor (http://www.slate.com/id/2256089)
How accurate are Memories of 9/11? (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/911-memory-accuracy)
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 06/07/2016 15:54:58
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it.

It absolutely can be definitively answered.  Once science proves (give it a decade) that consciousness is nothing more than a biological process and can detail the mechanism, it can then be shown quite factually that it would not survive death, since our biological processes pretty much cease upon death.



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The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge.

It is interesting that the most readily available way to give credibility to the scientifically absurd concept of consciousness surviving death; the OBE; has never been proven by a single person to have actually taken place.  But I would argue against it technically being the 'only' thing that can be proved as it relates to consciousness surviving death.  If we think about the concept itself, as far fetched scientifically as it is, if consciousness survived death we're then throwing some new things into play.  There would have to be some new form of self aware energy that existed, or some dimensional gateway that the energy could flow through, or possibly some hidden dimension altogether where the consciousness goes where all laws of physics as we know them cease to exist, or a bunch of other far fetched and absurd sounding things that would be necessary for consciousness after death to be real.  So finding any of these things, proving any of their existences, or even being able to show through theory and scientific calculation etc that these things could exist or the mechanisms for how they'd exist, would all technically be evidence towards the concept of consciousness after death being real.  But there's a reason why such things sound so far fetched and absurd...


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Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms.

You still make it sound like an algorithm should be so easy.  But first science would need to fully understand what's going on. But even then, the processes might be so utterly complex that we'd still be hard pressed to recreate it via algorithm.  The fact we haven't been able to yet means absolutely nothing.  The brain has had billions of years of evolution behind it.  Has 100 billion neurons worth of processing power behind it, and so many complex calculations and processes involved.  First science would need to fully understand exactly how the mechanism of consciousness works, and only then could they truly get to the task of recreating it via algorithm.  But nothing would be easy about it at all, since we're talking about one of the most complex and wondrous processes that nature, in billions and billions of years, has come up with.  We're not even a century into computing yet.  Be a bit more patient.

And science is getting closer and closer to defining it.  There is much progress that has been made and they've even discovered the consciousness trigger in the brain, which is a good discovery.  In our lifetime it is quite possible that the answer of consciousness will be solved.  And one thing I know for certain, is that it will be shown to be a biological process, same as everything else about us, no magical defies everything we've ever scientifically learned or known thus far having zero evidence to support it goes to some magical fairy kingdom outside our own spacetime after death makes zero sense overall soul required.  Humans love attributing that which they don't understand to 'god'.  But each time, science catches up and shows that there were perfectly reasonable and factual explanations all along.  This will be no different.  And they are getting really close...  Thankfully.

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How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery

Not a mystery at all.  In fact, it's rather quite logical.  Cause again, we're talking about the most complex and wondrous process that nature has come up with in all its billions and billions of years, and formed in the most complex brain, with the help of hundreds of billions of neurons doing the processing.  Why would it be a mystery that modern neurology, with only less than a century of time behind it overall, hasn't yet nailed down that most complex and advanced of natures wonders?  I'd say it's actually pretty damn impressive how close they've come in such a short time.  Like I said, they're actually really close to solving it.  But just because they haven't yet, doesn't mean that all of a sudden everything we know in science cannot be real, that there's some other dimension within our own spacetime that we cannot see or access but that every time someone dies their energy suddenly transcends to, that there is this other beyond magical able to retain identity, memories and information type energy that leaves your body to begin with, and that suddenly, upon the ceasing of biological processes, that everything that once required complex networks of memory and neurons is able to be transformed into this magical undetectable energy that can do it all itself and access some dimensional gateway to run amok with all the other balls of magical undetectable energy; while defying everything we've ever learned scientifically as human beings. 

No.  It just means that the answer has not yet been discovered, nothing more, but that the answer will still be one of earthly origin with explanations that reside within our realm of science, logic and understanding, and that the only hurdle is merely time.  But the time will come soon enough.  Long live science!
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 06/07/2016 16:35:33


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan

I have spoken the truth above.  And nah, pontius is now nothing more than a rotting corpse, and he washed his hands merely at his role in the death of a mortal. But such is now long gone history. But I thought you didn't want to inject religion into this discussion? But I do believe the discussion can have merit.  If you choose to have that discussion on religion, I'd be interested in your answers to the questions on the topic I posted above.  They are quite relevant and logic based. But if you wanna stick merely with the "it's true cause I want it to be" defense I totally would understand. 

Or we can just move along from the religious discussion. I'm ok with whatever. 

(and I would argue that truth is science and reality, the lies and deception religion, and that the truth was standing before pontius, and that truth was that Jesus was but a man)

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 06/07/2016 17:17:53

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 06/07/2016 18:15:34
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang.
Philosophically, we can't falsify the survival of consciousness after permanent death, but scientifically, we can declare it false beyond reasonable doubt. When multiple independent lines of evidence suggest it can't happen, and there's no plausible evidence that it does, that's the only rational conclusion. As Sean Carroll says, when you know the rules of chess, it doesn't make you a chess player or allow you to evaluate a chess position, but it does mean you know that if someone suggests that a rook might move diagonally, they're just wrong. Quantum field theory in the Standard Model may not be a complete explanation of the universe, and it doesn't mean we understand the world around us, but we have established the basic physical rules underlying everyday life (protons, neutrons, electrons, the electromagnetic force, and gravitation are all the particles & forces that are relevant at everyday human scales), and they simply don't support the concept of independent consciousness - nor, for that matter, does classical thermodynamics.

There's little doubt that the experience of OBEs does occur, but there is every reason to think that it is an internally generated experience.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 06/07/2016 21:18:06

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.

More terminological inexactitudes from you and thank you for mentioning your book so that I can avoid reading it.

And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.

You are a master at digressing so why mention it?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 07/07/2016 00:09:53
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: Alan McDougall on 07/07/2016 00:39:40
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 07/07/2016 01:08:18

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.

Just for sake of clarity and not for sake of arguing, but I will not change how I freely talk due to what I'd feel to be someone's irrational dislike of it.  There's not a thing offensive about the word, and I will plainly say that if someone finds that there is, that's a problem for them to overcome, not for me to overcome.  I'm not gonna change who I am nor how I choose to talk merely because someone says so, unless what i was saying was truly offensive; which in this case it truly wasn't. This is my only post on the topic I will make.  I will not argue with you on a personal level, and will only debate with you within the context of the thread itself.  I made a quick exception to put this specific issue to rest insofar as I'm concerned.  Thank you. 


Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 07/07/2016 05:42:04
if a baby die, does his/her consciousness survive?
will it grow as adult of pure consciousness?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 07/07/2016 11:01:13
As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
OK.

Just out of interest, what is it you find offensive about it? It's definitely not an insult among the people I know (mainly retired), so I'm wondering if there's another meaning to the one I know.

p.s. any comment on the video I linked to earlier?
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 10/07/2016 15:39:45
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: IAMREALITY on 10/07/2016 16:33:15
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree. 
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 10/07/2016 18:03:52

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree.
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.
Title: Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
Post by: dlorde on 10/07/2016 21:30:58
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.
Just post the URL: Perspectives on Death (https://youtu.be/mjQwedC1WzI)