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General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: yor_on on 17/02/2017 17:53:15

Title: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 17/02/2017 17:53:15
Make it a statement if you too wonder.

1. why don't we use the Internet to vote, and make our votes at a regular time, meaning at what you're interested in. We could create a system without 'politicians', but we don't?

2. Why do people think that making it unbearable for those needing a car, for work, or just to make the day, will stop the pollution we have?

2.a As a suggestion to the last, make public services 'smart' at any time of the day, and cheap instead.

(and I think we all know the real answer, it's a cheap way to increase incomes without increasing taxes Also 'stating' that you 'do something'.)



I do have some more, but I hope you too have thoughts on what makes you wonder.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: zx16 on 17/02/2017 18:12:06
I wonder why intelligent people like yourself are opposed to President Trump.  Is it the media?
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: jeffreyH on 17/02/2017 22:10:47
No it's because he is an unbearable racist who also molests women.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: Jolly on 17/02/2017 22:43:01

Make it a statement if you too wonder.

1. why don't we use the Internet to vote, and make our votes at a regular time, meaning at what you're interested in. We could create a system without 'politicians', but we don't?

You would basically be giving those with control over the internet, complete power. Not everyone would vote anyway. And who but politicians and burocrates would decide what was to be voted on anyway?

2. Why do people think that making it unbearable for those needing a car, for work, or just to make the day, will stop the pollution we have?

Only something like 25% of poultion comes from the population and their activities. Farming and business pratice accounts for the majority of the rest, If everyone drove electric cars, didnt shower, or waste stuff only 25% of the problem would be impacted. 


2.a As a suggestion to the last, make public services 'smart' at any time of the day, and cheap instead.

(and I think we all know the real answer, it's a cheap way to increase incomes without increasing taxes Also 'stating' that you 'do something'.)

Looking at it the wrong way round our corporate over lords love anything that will reduce taxes, less tax money means less funds for the government, more debts more selling off of public property  and so less influence for that government and the population that government is ment to represent. 



I do have some more, but I hope you too have thoughts on what makes you wonder.

I wonder how people are soo blind to real issues we face.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 08:32:04
Thjere are some reasons for that.

1. What a USA citizen think and feel about Trump is also about USA:s internal affairs foremost, not international. But USA is a 'SuperPower' with the 'American dream' as its best argument. So those of us outside those internal affairs, looking in, won't judge him on them firstly, but on the way he treats the rest of the world.

2. he's the 'chief of commanders' and have one of the largest collection of intercontinental nukes etc, in the world. According to USA:s  constitution (as I read it) he now can press that red button at any time of his choice. You want someone that talk in that position, not bully. Seems nobody really understands what nuclear war will do to day, when Countries are so dependent on each other. It will be as Einstein said, but with a twist, and the stone-age will have been a much better place than what we will leave for the next generations.

3. Then there are the lies, Myself I prefer honesty to that. You can with good reason argue that no 'serious politician' will tell a truth, if he/she can twist it into something more fitting his or hers own interests, but there are compromises. If now President Trump are honest in his intentions, he still need to read up on things before he states what he thinks is the 'truth'. He's not 'Joe at the corner' anymore, he's the President, and what he says, and do, will be taken seriously by other nations.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 08:57:11
True Jolly, not everyone would vote on everything, but, you think we do now? You might want to set some percentage for the really important questions to be voted on, if not enough people are interested in it, it goes to a 'new round'. And it puts a lot of importance on those presenting the issues. that different 'parties' have their own interests are one thing, but the presentation from a democratic government on those issues needs to be 'clean' and to the bone. Most of the farming that is done today is only possible through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process)

Without the world will look very different.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: alancalverd on 18/02/2017 09:18:04
Karl Marx actually proposed a truly representative democracy, based on the structure of most trade unions.

Consider a "street committee" - one representative from each household or shop, say 20 people who can discuss matters of genuinely local and personal importance as well as matters of state. They select one member to a village committee, that has some spending power and represents around 1000 - 2000 people. Ten village committees each delegate a representative to the district committee, responsible for some public services, like minor roads and refuse collection, has a permanent secretariat, and pays an honorarium to the chairman who represents the district to the county. Major public services are run by the county secretariat. Since each county represents and serves the interests of 200,000 people, 200 delegates can now form a full-time, paid national debating chamber  representing 40,000,000 voters - quite a sizeable country.

The trick is that members at each level are mandated by those they represent, and can be recalled if they fail to  represent them adequately. Thus government represents the will of the people filtered by a majority vote that runs along mandate, not party lines.  The rule at each level is that the delegate to the next level is selected by all of his peers as a genuine primus inter pares, with no party selection, advertisement, national campaign, etc.  Thus government policy becomes evolutionary rather than revolutionary (there are no general elections, only a gradual replacement of delgates and a gradual shift of mandate at each level) and truly representative. 
 
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 09:39:47
No reason why we can't have both Alan.
I like when 'political decisions' becomes anchored at the community/ies it will touch, locally defined.

It would make for a different world, wouldn't it?
=

Although, I think the hierarchy needs to stop at that local level too. There's that old saying that  people elected to power aren't necessarily the people that are the best on handling the responsibilities. Meaning that some search for it, others just want to live their own lives.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: alancalverd on 18/02/2017 10:55:02
Problem with the present system, or "both systems", is that party politics come as a package, which is the dlemma of the present UK Labour Party: the majority of its members, and its elected parliamentary leader, want to leave the EU, but the national policy and the majority of  its members of parliament want to remain, so we have the leader of the opposition putting up a weak opposition to a government policy that he actually agrees with, and getting all sorts of grief from his fellow MPs, whilst fighting a  rearguard action against minority nationalist parties who sit in opposition but want to attack Labour from behind.....  Not that the Prime Minister is in a much better position, having campaigned to remain she is now stuck with the requirement to negotiate an exit as if she believed in it, but at least her party members are falling into line. 

Under the Marxist system, the debate would be among people with a clear and secure mandate from below, accountable only to their constituents, not a national party.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 12:28:06
I don't know there Allan. what I think you refer to is the guy sitting in the royal British libraries, thinking. Not the Russian revolution and its aftermath. To me it all got horribly wrong once on its way, with the absolutely wrong people 'leading' it too. I prefer a democracy where people actually can vote, and also get clear information on what they vote on. That's the problem for a Internet based democracy, impartial information. Then again, the same problem is already here, and probably has been since the beginning of mankind. But science and peer reviews offer one solution, a honest bureaucracy another. some country's have that, some don't.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: jeffreyH on 18/02/2017 12:36:32
When a population is asked to vote they are almost always lied to by the politicians in order to gain their votes. Population are generally not stupid enough to accept the lies but vote anyway for the party they believe are the best of a bad bunch. The media have a lot of influence in this decision making process. However newspapers are on the decline. They were generally the most influential of the media outlets. Hence the rush for media organisations to open online gambling sites. This indicates just how little they were concerned with the truth in the first place.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: jeffreyH on 18/02/2017 12:39:44
Once a large proportion of the population are in debt to said gambling sites then the world is the media baron's oyster.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: alancalverd on 18/02/2017 12:43:45
I don't know there Allan. what I think you refer to is the guy sitting in the royal British libraries, thinking. Not the Russian revolution and its aftermath. To me it all got horribly wrong once on its way, with the absolutely wrong people 'leading' it too.

That's why I said Marx, not Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Ceaucescu....Where communism has arisen from revolution, there has generally been some military genius and/or demagogue at the top. But Western trade unions generally adopt the tiered "soviet" approach which promotes and develops policies,  effective negotiators and public speakers with a truly popular mandate (been there, done that!) and no need for secret police, political executions, etc. 
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 12:45:32
Part of the reason why we need a open and honest Internet Jeffrey. even when it it becomes horrid it still mirrors reality. There's the problem with people considering themselves able to get away with any lie they like, but those also exist outside my door. So 'honest' in this sense just mean that the Internet is a reflection of humanity, and we're not perfect.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: yor_on on 18/02/2017 12:47:52
Well, I guess you've been thinking about this a lot Allan. Whatever choices we make though, let's keep it as honest as we can.
Title: Re: Some things I wonder about
Post by: Jolly on 19/02/2017 02:32:35
True Jolly, not everyone would vote on everything, but, you think we do now? You might want to set some percentage for the really important questions to be voted on, if not enough people are interested in it, it goes to a 'new round'. And it puts a lot of importance on those presenting the issues. that different 'parties' have their own interests are one thing, but the presentation from a democratic government on those issues needs to be 'clean' and to the bone. Most of the farming that is done today is only possible through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process)

Without the world will look very different.

Well ever consider how similar the world is, with all the different countries they are all following the same path- why would that be?