Naked Science Forum

Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: tkadm30 on 30/03/2017 23:15:09

Title: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 30/03/2017 23:15:09
This topic was split off from "Should we take a small aspirin everyday?" (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=69170.0):
Quote from: tkadm30
Cannabis as a replacement for aspirin in prevention and management of cardiovascular diseases is controversial and poorly understood.

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481040

However, some heart conditions can lead to excess formation of blood clots, which could pass to the brain and also cause a stroke or heart attack.

Cannabinoids are cardioprotective compounds. I highly recommend considering cannabis as a replacement for daily aspirin use. Cannabis is much safer than aspirin.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: chris on 30/03/2017 23:59:54
I highly recommend considering cannabis as a replacement for daily aspirin use. Cannabis is much safer than aspirin.

No it's not.

You've no evidence whatsoever to support that statement. People have looked at cannabis-like agonists in platelets and there are also observations that cannabis consumers who are also blood donors show reduced platelet activation, but an in vitro effect - which these experiments are - is not the same as clinical evidence for effectiveness or safety.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 31/03/2017 10:02:17
You've no evidence whatsoever to support that statement. People have looked at cannabis-like agonists in platelets and there are also observations that cannabis consumers who are also blood donors show reduced platelet activation, but an in vitro effect - which these experiments are - is not the same as clinical evidence for effectiveness or safety.

The evidence of safety of cannabis over aspirin is in the mortality rate associated with aspirin use.

Quote
(Marijuana Safety - DEA Administrative Law Judge's Ruling)
"3. The most obvious concern when dealing with drug safety is the possibility of lethal effects. Can the drug cause death?
"4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality.
"5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuana is now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death.
"6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Causes_of_Death

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: chris on 31/03/2017 11:11:46
(Marijuana Safety - DEA Administrative Law Judge's Ruling)
"3. The most obvious concern when dealing with drug safety is the possibility of lethal effects. Can the drug cause death?
"4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality.
"5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuana is now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death.
"6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.

Forgive me, but what has this got to do with the question of whether cannabis could be substituted for aspirin as an anti-platelet agent?

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: evan_au on 31/03/2017 11:28:11
Quote from: DEA Judge, quoted by tkadm30
Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death.

Which contrasts with a few quotes from the drugwarfacts website:
Quote from: Callaghan et al
Standardized MVA mortality ratios were elevated across all drug cohorts: alcohol (4.5, 95% CI, 4.1–4.9), cocaine (3.8, 95% CI, 2.3–5.3), opioids (2.8, 95% CI, 2.1–3.5), methamphetamine (2.6, 95% CI, 2–3.1), cannabis (2.3, 95% CI, 1.5–3.2)...
See: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/chapter/Drugged_Driving#sthash.eILJzR5v.dpbs

Combine this with:
Quote from: drugwarefacts
   Motor Vehicle Accidents [subset of Total Accidents]    35,398 in 2014
See: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Causes_of_Death#sthash.scPWhypl.N7JZHaxM.dpbs

If motor vehicles kill a lot of people, and Motor Vehicle Accident (MVA) mortality ratio is higher for cannabis users, then it follows that cannabis has caused deaths - of users and bystanders.

It seems from glancing at a few pages that this website seemed to confuse "safety of cannabis" with "a low risk of cannabis overdose".

There are many ways that cannabis can prove lethal besides overdose - some of those quoted above hide behind the smokescreen that almost certain outcomes like lung cancer take years to appear and can't be specifically tied to smoking cannabis many years previously.

Quote from: OP
Should we take a small aspirin everyday and if so what size?
I think that tkadm30 has mounted his hobby-horse, and tried to kidnap the thread...
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 01/04/2017 09:57:13
Cannabis as a replacement for aspirin in prevention and management of cardiovascular diseases is controversial
and poorly understood.

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481040/
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/04/2017 10:16:46
There's no way that anyone can sensibly claim that cannabis- used for cardiovascular effects- doesn't have serious side effects.

You can safely drive a car while taking aspirin.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 02/04/2017 10:43:50
There's no way that anyone can sensibly claim that cannabis- used for cardiovascular effects- doesn't have serious side effects.

You can safely drive a car while taking aspirin.

You would be surprised by the safety of cannabis in the management of cardiovascular diseases. While the risks of driving stoned should not be ignored, I believe that its cardioprotection properties are superior to aspirin.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/04/2017 10:52:46
There's no way that anyone can sensibly claim that cannabis- used for cardiovascular effects- doesn't have serious side effects.

You can safely drive a car while taking aspirin.

You would be surprised by the safety of cannabis in the management of cardiovascular diseases. While the risks of driving stoned should not be ignored, I believe that its cardioprotection properties are superior to aspirin.
What you believe- as opposed to being able to prove is irrelevant.
Also, since the typical dose regimen for cardiovascular drugs is "all the time 24/7" and that for canabis is generally " on a Friday or Saturday night  for a few hours" there's no comparable data.
You seem to be advocating  a large fraction of the population being stoned most of the time.
Do you understand that this would have an effect on the economy, road safety and so on?

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 02/04/2017 11:52:13
What you believe- as opposed to being able to prove is irrelevant.
Also, since the typical dose regimen for cardiovascular drugs is "all the time 24/7" and that for canabis is generally " on a Friday or Saturday night  for a few hours" there's no comparable data.
You seem to be advocating  a large fraction of the population being stoned most of the time.
Do you understand that this would have an effect on the economy, road safety and so on?

I advocate for better research and education on the cardioprotective and neuroprotective effects of cannabis.
There's no reason to believe in fear comparing cannabis to aspirin. The aspirin mortality rate is a proof cannabis is at least safer than aspirin for management of cardiovascular diseases.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/04/2017 14:43:30
What you believe- as opposed to being able to prove is irrelevant.
Also, since the typical dose regimen for cardiovascular drugs is "all the time 24/7" and that for canabis is generally " on a Friday or Saturday night  for a few hours" there's no comparable data.
You seem to be advocating  a large fraction of the population being stoned most of the time.
Do you understand that this would have an effect on the economy, road safety and so on?

I advocate for better research and education on the cardioprotective and neuroprotective effects of cannabis.
There's no reason to believe in fear comparing cannabis to aspirin. The aspirin mortality rate is a proof cannabis is at least safer than aspirin for management of cardiovascular diseases.
Better research is always a good thing; but not always the most valuable thing. It is, for example, possible that research on potential drugs that don't lead to people getting stoned might be more productive.
You seem to be the only one for whom "fear" is an issue.
Do you understand that mortality isn't the only important side effect?
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 08/04/2017 11:13:45
Do you understand that mortality isn't the only important side effect?

No. Aspirin-induced mortality is by far the most important "side-effect" of daily aspirin use. In contrast, chronic cannabis use has no mortality associated to its occasional use.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: chris on 08/04/2017 11:20:32
In contrast, chronic cannabis use has no mortality associated to its occasional use.

Apart from lung cancer in people who smoke it...
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/04/2017 11:34:36
Do you understand that mortality isn't the only important side effect?

No. Aspirin-induced mortality is by far the most important "side-effect" of daily aspirin use. In contrast, chronic cannabis use has no mortality associated to its occasional use.
Even if we ignore that fact that cannabis does kill people*- as Chris pointed out- you still can't replace aspirin by dope because just about all the people over 50 or so would be stoned all the time.
That's a whole lot of problems- many of them potentially fatal.

Do you really not understand why that  is a problem?

*
http://norml.org/component/zoo/category/cannabis-smoke-and-cancer-assessing-the-risk
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 08/04/2017 12:11:47
In contrast, chronic cannabis use has no mortality associated to its occasional use.

Apart from lung cancer in people who smoke it...

Forgive me, but check the evidences.
THC kills lung cancer cells in vivo and in vitro.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 08/04/2017 12:17:09
Even if we ignore that fact that cannabis does kill people*- as Chris pointed out- you still can't replace aspirin by dope because just about all the people over 50 or so would be stoned all the time.
That's a whole lot of problems- many of them potentially fatal.

Cannabis-associated mortality is 0. How on earth can you compare this with aspirin??
BTW, people using cannabis are not necessarely high all the time. This is a fallacy of your
reasoning.
 
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 15/04/2017 13:11:40
Quote
The endocannabinoid system has been shown to have a homeostatic role by controlling several metabolic functions, such as energy storage and nutrient transport. It acts on peripheral tissues such as adipocytes, hepatocytes, the gastrointestinal tract, the skeletal muscles and the endocrine pancreas. It has also been implied in modulating insulin sensitivity. Through all of this, the endocannabinoid system may play a role in clinical conditions, such as obesity, diabetes, and atherosclerosis, which may also give it a cardiovascular role.[46]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system#Energy_balance_and_metabolism
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2017 13:34:30
Cannabis-associated mortality is 0. How on earth can you compare this with aspirin??
That's just not true and you should know it because it has already been pointed out in this thread.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: evan_au on 15/04/2017 13:43:14
Quote from: From tkadm30
The endocannabinoid system has been shown to have a homeostatic role by controlling several metabolic functions, such as energy storage and nutrient transport. It acts on peripheral tissues such as adipocytes, hepatocytes, the gastrointestinal tract, the skeletal muscles and the endocrine pancreas.
The endocannabinoid system is important, with receptors in the brain and many other organs.
Like most neurotransmitter and hormonal communication systems in the body, it requires a careful interplay between the signalling system and the receptors; often the same system is reused directly or with subtle variations in different parts of the body.

You advocate dumping in a random quantity of various interfering chemicals into the endocannabinoid system throughout the whole body. So why do you think that this is going to to produce a specific beneficial result?

It is more likely to throw a number of bodily systems needed for homeostasis into disarray.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 15/04/2017 13:56:30
Cannabis-associated mortality is 0. How on earth can you compare this with aspirin??
That's just not true and you should know it because it has already been pointed out in this thread.

Citation needed.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 15/04/2017 14:01:57
You advocate dumping in a random quantity of various interfering chemicals into the endocannabinoid system throughout the whole body. So why do you think that this is going to to produce a specific beneficial result?

I advocate for better education about the positive effects of cannabis on the cardiovascular system. Personally, I prefer managing my cardiovascular health with organic products rather absorbing potentially risky pills.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: RD on 15/04/2017 17:46:28
I prefer managing my cardiovascular health with organic products rather absorbing potentially risky pills.
So you p-reefer, unproven products, of unknown strength, and unknown purity.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cannabis_woo
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Organic#Organic_woo (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Organic#Organic_woo)
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Herbal_supplement#Safety_and_potential_for_harm (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Herbal_supplement#Safety_and_potential_for_harm)
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/04/2017 12:11:47
Cannabis-associated mortality is 0. How on earth can you compare this with aspirin??
That's just not true and you should know it because it has already been pointed out in this thread.

Citation needed.
Wrong again.
No citation is needed because you already have at least one.
This one, for example.
http://norml.org/component/zoo/category/cannabis-smoke-and-cancer-assessing-the-risk
And this
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/chapter/Drugged_Driving#sthash.eILJzR5v.dpbs

So, as I said, you know that what you said simply isn't true.
 
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 16/04/2017 15:46:07
I highly recommend considering cannabis as a replacement for daily aspirin use.

Aspirin potently blocks platelet TXA2....

Cannabis/THC/CBD do not.

No thanx.



Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 16/04/2017 15:49:37
Cannabis is much safer than aspirin.

I use both daily, and have yet to find any safety issues with either.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 16/04/2017 16:40:09
Long-Term Aspirin May Cut Risk for Cancer Death

Nick Mulcahy
April 06, 2017
WASHINGTON, DC — Long-term, regular aspirin use was associated with both a reduced relative risk for death from any cause and also death from cancer,  according to a new observational study involving more than 130,000 health professionals.

Overall mortality risk was 7% lower for women and 11% lower for men who regularly used aspirin compared with nonregular aspirin users. And cancer mortality risk was 7% lower for women and 15% lower for men who regularly used aspirin.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/878305
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 16/04/2017 16:53:42
Quote from: tkadm30
Cannabis is much safer than aspirin.

Aside from lesion formation/gastric bleeding from the repeated coadministration of anti-platelet drugs [with] aspirin in the elderly.... just how unsafe do you think low-dose aspirin is?

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 16/04/2017 23:28:08
Aside from lesion formation/gastric bleeding from the repeated coadministration of anti-platelet drugs [with] aspirin in the elderly.... just how unsafe do you think low-dose aspirin is?

I rather not play dices with potential risks of cardiovascular events associated with chronic aspirin use. Whoever created the myth that daily aspirin use is preventive in the management of CVDs is a liar or terribly wrong.

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 00:10:50
Whoever created the myth that daily aspirin use is preventive in the management of CVDs is a liar or terribly wrong.

You'd need a true concept of physiology & pharmacodynamics for that statement to be even remotely plausible.

If you need me to go over the MOA and/or pharmacodynamic impact of low-dose aspirin as it relates to myocardial ischemia,  I can.... but either way your statement is patently false.

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 00:18:38
potential risks of cardiovascular events associated with chronic aspirin use.

You mean outside of elderly patients coadministering aspirin with anti-platelet drugs?

Specifically which deleterious "cardiovascular events" are associated with aspirin @81mg/day?

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 00:53:58
Cardiologia. 1994 Dec;39(12 Suppl 1):15-21.
[Low-dose aspirin in the long-term treatment of the patient with ischemic heart disease].

Coronary atherosclerosis is the process underlying virtually all the clinical manifestations of ischemic heart disease. When ulcer or fissure in the fibrous cap of the atheroma occur, platelet adhesion to subendothelium, aggregation and further platelet recruitment culminate in thrombus formation. These mechanisms are known to be responsible for most cases of acute events in patients with ischemic heart disease. Inside platelets, aspirin blocks the synthesis of thromboxane A2 by irreversibly inhibiting cyclooxygenase.

Aspirin is recommended not only for treatment of patients with acute coronary syndromes (unstable angina, acute myocardial infarction), but also for secondary prevention of vascular events in chronic coronary syndromes.

Aspirin prevents myocardial infarction in patients with chronic stable angina and reduces mortality, reinfarction and stroke in survivors of an acute myocardial infarction.

Aspirin, alone or in combination with dipyridamole, prevents early and late occlusion of aortocoronary vein grafts. It is useful also in patients undergoing coronary angioplasty.

Such benefits extend to all patients regardless of age, sex, history of hypertension or diabetes. Higher daily doses (900-1500 mg) are not more effective than lower doses (75-325 mg).

Other antiplatelet drugs are not more effective than aspirin, which has the best risk-to-benefit and cost-to-benefit ratios. Ticlopidine is a reasonable alternative for use in preventing vascular events among patients intolerant to aspirin. Warfarin is an effective antithrombotic alternative to aspirin for secondary prevention after a myocardial infarction. However aspirin is easier to administer and follow-up when compared with warfarin. Warfarin should be preferred in high risk patients with left ventricular dysfunction with or without a mural thrombus, and those with associated atrial fibrillation.

PMID: 7634259
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 01:12:04
If you need me to go over the MOA and/or pharmacodynamic impact of low-dose aspirin as it relates to myocardial ischemia,  I can.... but either way your statement is patently false.

(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/aspirininmibypharmjimmy-150620110205-lva1-app6891/95/aspirin-in-myocardial-infarction-by-pharm-jimmy-aiden-25-638.jpg?cb=1434798300)
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 01:39:58
Whoever created the myth that daily aspirin use is preventive in the management of CVDs is a liar or terribly wrong.

Speaking of terribly wrong....

FACT: Aspirin blocks platelet thromboxane a2 production which facilitates endothelial prostacyclin production.

FACT: Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation.

FACT: Aspirin is cardioprotectant - unequivocally.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 09:35:15
FDA Reverses Its Position on Daily Aspirin.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/08/04/daily-aspirin-side-effects.aspx

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 09:41:34
Quote
[05/02/2014] Cardiovascular disease, including heart disease and stroke, affects tens of millions of people in the United States.  Consumers and patients who do not suffer from cardiovascular disease sometimes consider taking aspirin to reduce the possibility of having a heart attack or stroke.  Reducing the possibility of having a first heart attack or stroke is called primary prevention.  The FDA has reviewed the available data and does not believe the evidence supports the general use of aspirin for primary prevention of a heart attack or stroke.  In fact, there are serious risks associated with the use of aspirin, including increased risk of bleeding in the stomach and brain, in situations where the benefit of aspirin for primary prevention has not been established.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/resourcesforyou/consumers/ucm390574.htm

 ;)
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: evan_au on 17/04/2017 10:34:40
Quote from: exothermic
lesion formation/gastric bleeding from the repeated coadministration of anti-platelet drugs [with] aspirin in the elderly
Aspirin intended for regular use often has a coating that delays the tablet dissolving until after it passes the acidic environment of the stomach. This reduces the chance of bleeding from stomach ulcers.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 11:55:58
Quote from: tkadm30
Whoever created the myth that daily aspirin use is preventive in the management of CVDs is a liar or terribly wrong.

Emergency management of acute myocardial infarction
S Maxwell
Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1999 Sep; 48(3): 284–298.
doi:  10.1046/j.1365-2125.1999.00998.x
PMCID: PMC2014343

Aspirin has potent anti-platelet effects as a result of the inhibition of platelet cyclo-oxygenase. Daily doses of at least 75 mg can produce almost complete enzyme inhibition in less than 1 h. The duration of this effect is limited by the turnover of circulating platelets.

The impact of 160 mg enteric-coated aspirin in suspected acute myocardial infarction was examined in 17 187 patients in the ISIS-2 study [14]. After 1 month of treatment there was a 23% reduction in vascular death in those patients allocated to aspirin compared with placebo, equivalent to the prevention of about 25 early deaths per 1000 patients treated. Aspirin also prevented 10 non-fatal reinfarctions and 3 non-fatal strokes per 1000 patients treated and was not associated with any excess bleeding. The benefit was apparent regardless of the time of first administration up to 24 h after onset of pain. Long-term follow-up showed that the mortality benefit is maintained for at least 4 years [15].

The Anti-Platelet Trialists Collaboration [16] meta-analysis examined nine trials involving a total of about 20 000 patients (including those from the ISIS-2 trial) (Table 2). There was a 29% reduction in the risk of suffering a vascular event, representing 38 events prevented per 1000 patients treated. This included a reduced risk of non-fatal reinfarction (12 prevented per 1000 treated), non-fatal stroke (2 per 1000) and vascular death (24 per 1000). The effects were additional to those of treatment with fibrinolytics or anticoagulants and unaffected by the delay to starting treatment. One important mode of action of aspirin was to prevent the excess of reinfarctions that normally follow recanalisation of the infarct-related artery, presumably as unstable plaques rethrombose [14].

These data suggest that aspirin 150–300 mg should be given to patients with suspected acute myocardial infarction as soon as possible following the event. The tablet should be chewed or dispersed in water to achieve a quick onset of its anti-platelet action. If the final diagnosis of acute myocardial infarction is confirmed (or another acute coronary syndrome is suspected) the patient should continue to receive 150 mg aspirin daily.

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 12:00:05
Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1999 Sep; 48(3): 284–298.
...
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 12:15:11
FACT: Aspirin blocks platelet thromboxane a2 production which facilitates endothelial prostacyclin production.

FACT: Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation.

FACT: Aspirin is cardioprotectant - unequivocally.


...
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 13:45:47
Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1999 Sep; 48(3): 284–298.

Did the statute of limitations expire for aspirin's cardioprotectant properties or something?

So aspirin blocked platelet TXA2 in 1999.... but not in 2017?

lol
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 14:08:30
Did the statute of limitations expire for aspirin's cardioprotectant properties or something?

So aspirin blocked platelet TXA2 in 1999.... but not in 2017?

lol

This is outdated. You should update yourself with the latest data to avoid spreading disinformation.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 14:27:36
This is outdated. You should update yourself with the latest data to avoid spreading disinformation.

Disinformation?

Now I remember why I haven't visited this forum in a while.

Everything I've posted is backed by peer-reviewed data.

You have no solid concept of physiology, drug pharmacokinetics or drug pharmacodynamics.

This discussion is utterly sensless at this point.

Goodbye.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 14:34:28
Disinformation?

Now I remember why I haven't visited this forum in a while.

Everything I've posted is backed by peer-reviewed data.

You have no solid concept of physiology, drug pharmacokinetics or drug pharmacodynamics.

This discussion is utterly sensless at this point.

Goodbye.

It's nothing personal exothermic, but between you and the FDA I choose the FDA to determine what is the latest scientific data on aspirin safety.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 14:41:47
Disinformation?

Now I remember why I haven't visited this forum in a while.

Everything I've posted is backed by peer-reviewed data.

You have no solid concept of physiology, drug pharmacokinetics or drug pharmacodynamics.

This discussion is utterly sensless at this point.

Goodbye.

Nothing personal exothermic, but between you and the FDA I choose the FDA to determine what is the latest scientific data on aspirin.

Riveting.

Get back to me when the FDA says that aspirin shouldn't be administered during an MI.... or when the FDA disputes the following irrefutable facts:

FACT: Aspirin blocks platelet thromboxane a2 production which facilitates endothelial prostacyclin production.

FACT: Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation.

FACT: Aspirin is cardioprotectant - unequivocally.


~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 14:50:14
Riveting.

Get back to me when the FDA says that aspirin shouldn't be administered during an MI.... or when the FDA disputes the following irrefutable facts:

FACT: Aspirin blocks platelet thromboxane a2 production which facilitates endothelial prostacyclin production.

FACT: Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation.

FACT: Aspirin is cardioprotectant - unequivocally.


~

You are confusing primary prevention with disease treatment.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_healthcare#Primary_prevention
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 14:51:06
I choose the FDA to determine what is the latest scientific data on aspirin safety.

You obviously can't understand the safety data on aspirin.

You keep quoting nonsense that merely applies to at-risk individuals [primarily elderly patients] with upper GI bleeding caused by dual antiplatelet therapy. At-risk individuals..... shouldn't be taking aspirin..... herp derp

~

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 14:54:31
You are confusing primary prevention with disease treatment.

lol..... What part of "Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation" did you not understand?
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 14:59:53
lol..... What part of "Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation" did you not understand?

Citation needed.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 15:31:17
lol..... What part of "Aspirin reduces the risk of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease & stroke by reducing coronary vasoconstriction and enhancing coronary vasodilation" did you not understand?

Citation needed.

The benefit of low-dose aspirin therapy for the secondary prevention of serious cardiovascular events is clear, but the use of aspirin for the primary prevention of CVD remains challenging due to mixed findings on mortality benefit.10

meta-analysis results suggest that there are also gender differences in the effects of aspirin on CVD, whereby risk of MI appears to be reduced in men and risk of stroke appears to be reduced in women.28,37

Current guidelines for the use of aspirin for CVD prevention take these differences into consideration. Aspirin use in males is primarily intended for the prevention of coronary artery disease, while in females, prevention of stroke is the main target.12

Based on the available evidence, the USPSTF and AHA have put forth recommendations for the use of aspirin therapy in primary prevention with clearly delineated populations expected to benefit from use.12,14,48

In the interim, primary care physicians are urged to categorize their patients based on individual risk factors and to assess the risks and benefits associated with aspirin use on a case-by-case basis.

The ability to prevent serious cardiovascular events and their associated sequelae with a single, inexpensive pill makes low-dose aspirin therapy worth considering.


The Role of Aspirin in the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease
Clin Med Res. 2014 Dec; 12(3-4): 147–154.
doi:  10.3121/cmr.2013.1197
PMCID: PMC4317158
Sunitha V. Ittaman, MD,* Jeffrey J. VanWormer, PhD,† and Shereif H. Rezkalla, MD‡
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 15:37:18
The Role of Aspirin in the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease
Clin Med Res. 2014 Dec; 12(3-4): 147–154.
doi:  10.3121/cmr.2013.1197
PMCID: PMC4317158
Sunitha V. Ittaman, MD,* Jeffrey J. VanWormer, PhD,† and Shereif H. Rezkalla, MD‡

I am sorry, but this is still outdated.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 15:45:03
The Role of Aspirin in the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease
Clin Med Res. 2014 Dec; 12(3-4): 147–154.
doi:  10.3121/cmr.2013.1197
PMCID: PMC4317158
Sunitha V. Ittaman, MD,* Jeffrey J. VanWormer, PhD,† and Shereif H. Rezkalla, MD‡

I am sorry, but this is still outdated.

The pharmacodynamics of aspirin as a cardioprotectant.... don't have an expiration date genius.

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 16:17:12
I am sorry, but this is still outdated.

Yes.... you are sorry. The cardioprotectant properties of aspirin do not have an expiration date.

Before I go....



Aspirin for the secondary prevention of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease
Author:Charles H Hennekens, MD, DrPHFreek Verheugt, MD, FACC, FESCChristopher P Cannon, MDGordon M Saperia, MD, FACC
Literature review current through: Mar 2017. | This topic last updated: Feb 07, 2017.

Atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (CVD), which includes coronary artery disease, cerebrovascular disease, and peripheral artery disease, is the leading the cause of death in the United States (US) and most developed countries and is rapidly becoming the leading cause of death in the world. In 2014, in the US alone, CVD caused more than 900,000 deaths. The totality of evidence from basic research, clinical investigations, observational epidemiologic studies, and randomized trials has provided strong support for the net benefits of aspirin in decreasing the risk of CVD events in a wide range of patients [1].

The following groups of patients with established cardiovascular disease, or at high risk, benefit from aspirin for the prevention of new cardiovascular events:

Patients with acute coronary artery syndromes such as acute myocardial infarction (MI) and unstable angina to prevent recurrent events.

Patients with acute occlusive stroke.

Patients with stable cardiovascular disease, such as those with stable ischemic heart disease (including those who have undergone revascularization with coronary artery bypass graft surgery), stable peripheral artery disease, or carotid artery disease.




US Pharm. 2017;42(2):27-31.
Management of Coronary Artery Disease and Chronic Stable Angina

Yesenia Camero, PharmD, BCPS
Jinwi Ghogomu, PharmD, BCPS, CPh

Aspirin is an antiplatelet agent that works through irreversible inhibition of cyclooxygenase, leading to decreased formation of the prostaglandin derivative thromboxane A2 and to inhibited platelet aggregation. Aspirin has been associated with a 37% reduction in the risk of serious CVEs, as well as a 46% decrease in the risk of unstable angina and a 53% decrease in the need for coronary angioplasty.7

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 17/04/2017 16:28:19



Updated:Mar 30,2017

Aspirin can help prevent heart attack.

AHA Recommendation

People at high risk of heart attack should take a daily low-dose of aspirin (if told to by their healthcare provider) and that heart attack survivors regularly take low-dose aspirin.

https://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HeartAttack/PreventionTreatmentofHeartAttack/Aspirin-and-Heart-Disease_UCM_321714_Article.jsp
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 21:17:12
The FDA and AHA seems to have conflicting positions on the use of daily aspirin for management of CVDs. So why not just stick to the precautionary principle and smoke weed safely instead of messing with the risky stuff?

https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/prevention/45634

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: tkadm30 on 17/04/2017 21:23:08
Quote
Aspirin's effect on blocking production of prostaglandin E2 to protect the stomach (increased mucus and decreased acid) is often mentioned as a problem but there are many others. Aspirin also inhibits the prostaglandins that protect the kidney against ischemia when blood flow is reduced when people faint from excessive treatment for hypertension. Aspirin also inhibits the prostaglandins that increase blood flow to the colon, which can be used to treat diarrhea but causes constipation in most people who previously enjoyed normal bowel functions. Aspirin can inhibit the production of prostacyclin that dilates blood flow to the lung and prevents pulmonary hypertension. It inhibits thromboxane A2 production to slow the activation of platelets, but it also inhibits prostacylin production that normally counteracts the action of thromboxane A2 to prevent stroke. By inhibiting cycloxygenase making prostaglandins, anything increasing phospholipase A2 and arachidonic acid release will then drive production of leukotrienes (bronchoconstriction and white cell recruit to the lung) which is why some people have trouble breathing after taking aspirin. There are so many beneficial prostaglandins made by cyclooxygenase. I'd rather retain a balance of prostaglandins to regulate body functions normally as needed. Aspirin intermittently is not harmful, but aspirin every day for 10, 20, 30 years deters the body's coping mechanisms and over long periods, something is bound to happen that requires the bodies normal versatility of responses. Why change that unnecessarily in health people when they have nothing wrong to prevent; let their bodies naturally adapt to all changes by balancing prostaglandin productions.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2017 11:59:27
This is outdated. You should update yourself with the latest data to avoid spreading disinformation.

Disinformation?

Now I remember why I haven't visited this forum in a while.

Everything I've posted is backed by peer-reviewed data.

You have no solid concept of physiology, drug pharmacokinetics or drug pharmacodynamics.

This discussion is utterly sensless at this point.

Goodbye.
The problem, IMHO isn't with the forum as a whole.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/04/2017 12:04:57
The FDA and AHA seems to have conflicting positions on the use of daily aspirin for management of CVDs. So why not just stick to the precautionary principle and smoke weed safely instead of messing with the risky stuff?

https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/prevention/45634

Because smoking weed kills people.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 18/04/2017 13:42:16
Aspirin intended for regular use often has a coating that delays the tablet dissolving until after it passes the acidic environment of the stomach. This reduces the chance of bleeding from stomach ulcers.

What nobody here seems to understand is that low-dose aspirin - in and of itself doesn't cause the upper GI bleeding that you hear about.

The bleeding is primarily a result of dual antiplatelet therapy, where there are two seperate mechanisms by which platelet aggregation is being inhibited.

So we have the aspirin inhibiting platelet aggregation, and we also have antiplatelet drugs like clopidogrel where there is additional inhibition via glycoprotein IIb/IIIa pathway blockade.

So in instances such as these.... enteric-coated aspirin would serve little purpose.

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 18/04/2017 13:50:13
The FDA and AHA seems to have conflicting positions on the use of daily aspirin for management of CVDs.

lol.... I'll take the word of the American Heart Association over the FDA when it comes to the cardioprotective benefits of aspirin, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 18/04/2017 13:58:11
why not just stick to the precautionary principle and smoke weed safely instead of messing with the risky stuff?

Risky stuff?

You don't even know who would be in the at-risk category for daily aspirin intake!

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 18/04/2017 14:38:45
You don't even know who would be in the at-risk category for daily aspirin intake!

Primary Aspirin Risk Factors:

High dose protocols, bleeding disorders, history of GI ulcers or upper GI pain, renal failure, thrombocytopenia, liver disease and patients undergoing dual antiplatelet therapy.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 21/04/2017 00:14:07
Quote
Aspirin intermittently is not harmful, but aspirin every day for 10, 20, 30 years deters the body's coping mechanisms and over long periods, something is bound to happen that requires the bodies normal versatility of responses

No.

Daily low-dose aspirin does not alter homeostasis to such a degree.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 21/04/2017 00:39:33
Quote
Aspirin can inhibit the production of prostacyclin that dilates blood flow to the lung and prevents pulmonary hypertension.

rofl.....

Anticoagulation and Aspirin as a Treatment for PAH

https://pulmonaryhypertensionnews.com/social-clips/2016/10/14/anticoagulation-and-aspirin-as-a-treatment-for-pah/
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 21/04/2017 01:55:57
Quote
it also inhibits prostacylin production that normally counteracts the action of thromboxane A2 to prevent stroke.

Yeah, that's why 160 mg of aspirin per-day is effective for the primary and secondary prevention of stroke and myocardial infarction.... right?


Aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke: what's the right dose?
Am J Med. 2006 Mar;119(3):198-202.
Aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke: what's the right dose?
Dalen JE1.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16490462
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 21/04/2017 14:53:56
In fact, there are serious risks associated with the use of aspirin, including increased risk of bleeding in the stomach and brain

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/resourcesforyou/consumers/ucm390574.htm

Show me the collective subset of patient data demonstrating an increased risk for upper GI bleeding and/or intracranial hemorrhage induced by daily aspirin @ 81-160 milligrams per-day.

Your concerns are merely warranted in the context of high-dose intake, dual antiplatelet therapy, or in patients who are already at an increased risk.

~
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 24/04/2017 13:48:28
Oh I forgot to mention.... GI bleeding induced by aspirin can be circumvented with the coadministration of a proton pump inhibitor.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 29/04/2017 12:16:44
The problem, IMHO isn't with the forum as a whole.


I disagree.... completely:


Quote from: exothermic
Do any of the people who supposedly ask these questions, ever respond?

It's almost as if these questions are just here as a topic of discussion and nothing else.

Quote from: evan_au
Chris receives many questions via email (many probably triggered by his phone-in question shows in various countries).

Most of these people won't have signed up for the forum, so Chris posts the question here on their behalf.
- The system sends them an email after a few days to tell them where to look for answers.
- If they want to progress the discussion, they may sign up and discuss it further.

Quote from: exothermic
Well virtually nobody signs up and continues any of these discussions. So these people take the time to ask all these questions.... only to never have them answered directly?

That doesn't make sense.

I get the impression that all of these questions have already been answered directly, and what you see posted on this forum are merely topics of discussion.

Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 30/04/2017 14:30:15
Quote from: Chris
I'm in the process of tidying up our user database, and it would be very helpful to know if you still intend to participate in the future, and if you would like us to keep your registration open.

I came here to help people..... not to have pointless discussions about questions which have already been answered.

Just delete my account.

~



Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: chris on 30/04/2017 16:12:35
I think you are missing an important point: by providing good quality answers to questions here you are helping millions of people, not just the person who asked the question. Take a look at the stats - thousands of people look at this forum every day and use it to guide them. So a conversation today might not involve the original questioner, but the content within that debate will influence many people for many years to come.

I think you for your input.
Title: Re: Can cannabis replace aspirin in the management of cardiovascular disease?
Post by: exothermic on 01/05/2017 01:40:43
I think you are missing an important point: by providing good quality answers to questions here you are helping millions of people, not just the person who asked the question. Take a look at the stats - thousands of people look at this forum every day and use it to guide them. So a conversation today might not involve the original questioner, but the content within that debate will influence many people for many years to come.

That may be so, but most of the information discussed here is already available online.... but while we are discussing the topic of helping people, could you please let me know what answer was given to the author of the following question:

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=67069.0

There's no way he was given the correct information - so unless he reviewed the thread, and understood the following quote.... his son continues to needlessly suffer.

A baseless diagnosis of a disease with no treatment and no cure - following 3-years of failed attempts at eradicating a mycoplasma/rickettsia infection is flat out reprehensible.

Hopefully the author will look for another physician. His son shouldn't have to suffer as a result of treatment inadequacy and he certainly doesn't need to hear that he's stuck with a disease that can't be cured.... when all of his symptoms are [directly] attributed to his mycoplasma/rickettsia infection.


Apparently only the moderators have the right answers.

If my answers aren't good enough for the author asking the question, then why should I take the time out of my day to respond? -- This is a rhetorical question of course, as the answer is obvious.

~