Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: santiugarte on 03/04/2018 22:56:57

Title: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: santiugarte on 03/04/2018 22:56:57

Below it is embedded a non-commercial video explaining the proposed hypothesis. (it is a homemade video, sorry for the poor quality)


attached is a pdf presentation proposing a hypothesis that tries to quantize gravity
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: Bogie_smiles on 12/04/2018 14:52:44

I want to open this up to where some discussion might take place. It is difficult to respond to the pdf, and to the possible quantization of gravity without a pretty good understanding of the pieces of the puzzle that you invoke to get there.  The modification to the geodesics might be a step towards quantization which might affect the physics at and around the event horizon, and the holographic principle might be a piece of the puzzle, but a solution to quantum gravity logically would be focused on the micro realm where there are few practical observation techniques or equations that yet go deep into the wave nature of particles, particle composition, and particle interactions.


The EFEs do a very practical job, as you point out, of predicting the effect of gravity in the macro realm, but as you also imply, the tensors in those equations aren't easily applied in the quantum realm, and the approach in the PDF seems to be aimed at modifying the equations to come up with changes in the geodesics at the macro level.


Meanwhile, the scientific community approach also seems to be to propose some mechanics that would apply at the micro level, sort out a theoretical quantum mechanical scenario of the cause of gravity that determines the motion of particles at that micro level, and then equate and compare the quantum cause of relative motion at the quantum level to the macro level geodesics. Wouldn't the desired result then be to have two compatible scenarios, one for the macro realm and one for the quantum realm, thus unifying the theories?

Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 13/04/2018 00:07:13
The string theorists already have a good theory of the graviton, which reproduces all aspects of gravitation in General Relativity in weak gravitational fields (eg in our Solar System and most of our galaxy).

What it lacks is:
- Predictive power: The String Theory version of quantum gravity falls down in the same places as General Relativity: near the event horizon of a black hole (strong gravitational fields).
- Uncontrollable infinities. Today's process of Renormalisation does not seem to work for gravity
- Evidence of extra 6 or so dimensions: This is the theoretical basis of today's string theory, but there is no observational evidence to support it

So if your theory can predict what happens at the event horizon of a black hole (and control the infinities), you may have an advantage over General Relativity and String Theory.

Fortunately, the "Black Hole Telescope" should become operational in the next year or so - able to image the black hole at the center of our galaxy.
Unfortunately, you will need to examine a black hole fairly closely to see if your prediction is correct, and this radio telescope will just give us a general outline of the black hole...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renormalization
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: santiugarte on 13/04/2018 10:08:05
Thank you for your comments, Bogie_smiles
.
   The hypothesis proposes a quantum type process in which the mass-energy changes from an alpha state to a beta state, the E.F.E. (or better said, the space-time distortion which is defined by a mathematical model like the established by the Einstein´s Field Equations) is the consequence of that alteration, This way it is established an interrelation between the proposed process and the distortion of space-time,  the E.F.E allow us to know the probability of the proposed process taking place for any given coordinate, so that the E.F.E. are giving us information at the quantum level. The process takes place at the quantum level and the result is observed at the macro level as well (quanta components of bodies are affected by that process, producing space-time distortion of bodies). In my opinion, there is no dichotomy between the micro and macro level, the Relativity theory uses terms and concepts like “locally” or “in the vicinity”, because is giving us information at the micro level. The focus should be on the interactions taking place (certainly the source of the gravitational field is the origin of the agent, the gravitational waves, responsible for those interactions). What the hypothesis proposes is that those interactions correspond to a process taking place between the gravitational fields and mass-energy and the space-time distortion is one of the consequences of those interactions. If energy is applied the process is boosted (for instance, applying kinetic energy).
    Interaction between gravitational waves and mass-energy changes the state of mass-energy from alpha state to beta state, reducing the quantity of mass-energy in alpha state (that is the reason for the space distortion), the distortion of time which is linked to an increase in the number of statistical trials, restores the value of the mass-energy in alpha state, but now in a curved space-time. This approach can be associated, for example, in the case of the Poisson distribution which has a mathematical relation with the binomial distribution, this one is the result of n Bernoulli´s statistical trials, each one with a probability p of a given result taking place. Where 0<p<1 is associated to the probability of mass-energy changing from alpha state to beta state, being pE the mass-energy in alpha state and qE the mass-energy in beta state, being p+q=1.
   The proposed process is an endothermic one ((dt/dτ)mc2- mc2, positive value so that takes energy from the physical system), as the body moves closer to the source of the gravitational field, and it is an exothermic process ((dτ/dt)mc2- mc2, has a negative value, delivering energy to the physical system) if the body is moving away from the source or for example considering expansive scenarios, which implies that an expanding Universe should experience velocities higher than the expected by the Standard Model of Relativity.
   The energy required by the process is responsible of an additional distortion of space-time, which modifies the Standard Model of Relativity, or in other words if we want a body to follow the geodesic established by the Standard Model, it is required to provide energy to the body in order to offset the effect of the proposed process, the value of the energy required reaches an infinite value at the event horizon of a black-hole, in a similar way as it is required an infinite amount of energy to get a body reaching the speed of light, both cases the value of the statistical parameter q defined, would reach the value 1. The energy required is (1/p)mc2- mc2  being   p=1/ϒ  considering the Special Relativity scenario and p= dτ/dt   considering the Schwarzschild metric.
   Quantum Mechanics dictates that if we want to confine a particle within a region of space-time, it is required energy, the energy required increases as we reduce the region of confinement (reaching an infinite value when the radius is null). If we take into account the proposed process, considering for example a spherical volume, if we want to confine a particle within that region, it is required energy as established by the Heisenberg´s uncertainty principle, the proposed process implies that a factor has to be added (to take into account the effect of the gravitational fields), so that the presence of mass-energy inside that region of space-time increases the energy required (with respect to the Standard Model) to confine the particle, reaching an infinite value at the event horizon when the Schwarzschild radius is reached.
   Electromagnetic force, weak and Strong nuclear forces have a probabilistic approach based on Quantum Mechanics. Gravity is not a conventional force but the result of space-time curvature, as established by Relativity, which is a classical theory, not having a probabilistic approach. If the proposed process is taken into account, it adds an additional condition, one consequence of that process is the effect of a force opposed to the free fall (negligible for weak gravitational fields) and now gravity might have a probabilistic approach.
   There are other interesting properties, for instance, the simultaneity of events. Relativity establishes that there is not simultaneity of events for Special Relativity scenarios. When we consider the defined approach, we have no simultaneity of events, if measuring with time the interval between two events, but there is simultaneity (not in time) if the variable used is the number of statistical trials instead of the time (noticing that between two events with different frame of reference, do not correspond with the same time but yes with the same number of statistical trials).

Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: guest39538 on 13/04/2018 11:05:28
attached is a pdf presentation proposing a hypothesis that tries to quantize gravity

1+1=2

Couldn't be more simpler
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: Bogie_smiles on 13/04/2018 13:41:55
Thank you, Santiugarte. Excellent enhancement to the OP; very detailed and quite readable, with researchable references, and all seems to maintain internal consistency. I like it.

I hope you will find that the time it took will be time well spent, and that it will open up the ideas to discussion by some of the better informed members, like Evan_au and others.

This way it is established an interrelation between the proposed process and the distortion of space-time,  the E.F.E allow us to know the probability of the proposed process taking place for any given coordinate, so that the E.F.E. are giving us information at the quantum level.
I see how you get to the quantum level, and agree that the distortion of space-time has its roots at the point-space level, if that is an appropriate take-away from your idea.
Quote
The focus should be on the interactions taking place (certainly the source of the gravitational field is the origin of the agent, the gravitational waves, responsible for those interactions). What the hypothesis proposes is that those interactions correspond to a process taking place between the gravitational fields and mass-energy and the space-time distortion is one of the consequences of those interactions.
That makes a lot of sense to me. Gravitational waves would be at the heart of all action …
Quote
If energy is applied the process is boosted (for instance, applying kinetic energy).
… and as the energy of the local environment changes due to energy applied, there are going to be more gravitational waves in that local environment, and thus more wave convergences, if there is any reality to that concept.

One thought that I like is that as those waves intersect and overlap, the energy carried by each wave front is combined at the point of convergence, resulting in an energy density change at the point of intersection (a high energy density point in space relative to the energy of the individual waves that are converging, if you like), and the frequency of those intersections (the number of such intersections in a given local volume of space) is an effect of the amount of applied energy.

It would seem that the resulting change in local wave energy density would be directly related to the amount of added energy and would correspond directly to the subsequent relative distortion of space-time in that local space, IMHO.
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: The Spoon on 13/04/2018 15:30:24
attached is a pdf presentation proposing a hypothesis that tries to quantize gravity

1+1=2

Couldn't be more simpler
Whereas you stated on your N Field thread that:
A rain drop fell into my cup, a second raindrop fell into my cup

1+1 = 1

Only in your dreams are you smarter than me
At least try to to keep your attention seeking consistent.
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: santiugarte on 22/04/2018 11:26:14
Possible methods to test Relativity and the proposed hypothesis.
         One consequence of  Relativity is that clocks run more slowly for an object that moves with velocity relative to the reference frame of the observer (as defined by Special Relativity). Considering Gravitational Fields, space-time curvature (as defined by General Relativity) implies that the clock runs more slowly the closer to the source of the gravitational field.
   Relativity is applied, for example, to GPS technology. GPS satellite clocks do have an accuracy of about 10-09. In recent years, technological  advanments have allowed to develop atomic clocks with accuracy up to  10-18   In 2013 the record was established with precision of one second every 300 million years, in 2017 the record was established with an atomic clock that won´t lose or gain a second in 15 billion years.

   Increasing accuracy of atomic clocks makes it a possible method to test Relativity.
 The proposed hypothesis establishes discrepancies, with respect to the Standard Model of Relativity by about 10-20  for the earth´s gravitational field (in the vicinity of the earth) and about  10-15  for the Sun´s gravitational field  (this would be the discrepancy if it is considered a distance from the Sun similar to the orbit of Mercury). These discrepancies decrease as the distance from the source of the gravitational field increases, so that a pattern of discrepancies can be established, which, if tested experimentally, would support the proposed hypothesis.
   This might be a possible method to test the hypothesis experimentally within the gravitational field of the Earth or the Sun. It is defined as a “possible method”, the question is if it is a viable method, using current technology. Obviously it is not the same, to make measurements in a laboratory than using a satelllite and sending it to a distance from the sun similar to the orbit of Mercury.
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 22/04/2018 13:47:49
This is a very interesting thread. I would concentrate upon the energy difference cause by the gravitational field. Especially the effect upon other fields. This relates directly to the frequency shift in waves as it relates to time dilation. My starting point is special relativity. Since it is far easier to work with.
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: santiugarte on 17/05/2018 18:21:03
Does anyone in the forum has advanced knowledge in Ads/CFT?
The question is if the proposed hypothesis might be considered as a possible Ads/CFT correspondence, where, the Anti-de Sitter space would be a four spatial plus one time dimensions.
And the E.F.E. are giving us the probability of the process taking place for any given coordinate, the higher the probability, the higher the quantity of mass-energy in beta state. The additional dimension is linked to the quantity of mass-energy in beta state.
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: opportunity on 22/05/2018 13:36:45
Is that necessary?

Calling for "quantum gravity" is asking for the recipe of Coca Cola or Kfc.

It's not going to happen.

If anyone knows anything about physics they know that as two mass objects relate in the context of gravity according to the law of the conservation of energy these masses "speed up", and thus gravity must accomodate in being "enthalpic".


Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: opportunity on 22/05/2018 13:46:15
"Classically", quantum effects are "entropic...….

...so we have a paradox, right?
Title: Re: Is it possible to quantize gravity?
Post by: santiugarte on 25/05/2018 22:53:45
   Quantum Mechanics is characterized by processes where objects or particles do change their physical state with probability factors associated to those processes, the hypothesis proposes a process linked to gravity, that changes the physical properties of the bodies or particles, being the space-time curvature a consequence of that alteration, in fact the Einstein Field Equations are giving us the probability of that process taking place for any given coordinate. This approach has important implications and shows discrepancies with respect to the Standard Model of Relativity. The entropy issue would be one of those implications, in order to get a better understanding of the hypothesis, it is required to see the whole picture of the proposal.

   
   Gravitational Fields do alter the physical properties of bodies (if energy is applied, for example kinetic energy, then that process is boosted), specifically, physical properties altered are the mass-energy of the body and its corresponding space-time, furthermore, there is an interrelation between the alteration of both properties, below will be described the physical reason behind that interrelation.
   The hypothesis assumes that space-time framework has four spatial dimensions plus one time dimension (x, y, z, w, t) where the distortion of the additional spatial coordinate w is the same than the distortion of the time coordinate.
   For instance, considering a body with uniform distribution of mass within the three dimensions length l, width w and height h corresponding to the coordinates (x, y, z), so that the total mass-energy of that body is  mc2, if the body instead of length l has length 2l then the mass-energy of the body would be 2mc2    and generically if the length is kl then the mass-energy of the body would be kmc2. This way considering four spatial coordinates, the hypothesis implies that concerning a Special Relativity scenario, the Lorentz factor is indicating The value of that fourth dimension with respect to the reference taken. If a body moves with velocity v relative to us, that body has mass-energy ϒmc2   relative to us, the value ϒmc2 – mc2   corresponds to mass-energy in beta state that is linked to the w coordinate. The higher the velocity, the higher the mass-energy in beta state, increasing the dimension of the body in that additional spactial coordinate. Similarly considering the Schwarzschild metric scenario, the factor (dt/dτ)mc2   is indicating the dimension of the body for that additional coordinate. 

    These concepts have been described roughly speaking, it has to be taken into account that Special Relativity is defined in a Minkowski space-time and it is required a Riemannian geometry concerning gravity scenarios. Besides, the hypothesis has a probabilistic approach, the concepts previously described have to take into account as well probabilistic conditions.
   The proposed process has a probability factor associated. What has been previously described are the effects or consequences of this process. In order to explain the way it works, it is used the following particular example:
        Special Relativity scenario, a reference (or frame of reference taken) a radioactive body with uniform distribution of mass (within the coordinates x, y, z with dimensions l, w, h and total mass-energy mc2) with no velocity with respect of the reference (the body is in “State A”) if Kinetic energy is applied to the body, then the body has velocity v relative to the initial reference (now the body is  in “State B”). If we want to know the probability of a certain quantity of that body decays for a lapse of time between and initial time and a target time, the Poisson´s distribution is used. It is mathematically demonstrated that under certain circunstances, the Poisson´s distribution is linked to the Binomial distribution, if those certain circunstances are met, then both distributions do obtain very similar values of probability. The binomial distibution is the consequence of a serie of Bernoulli´s events, each of them has a probability of taking place, pP corresponds to positive results (positive results are identified with mass-energy in alpha state) and qP with negative results (identified with mass-energy in beta state), the factor P depends on the specific characteristics of the radioactive material, different materials will have different values of P, meanwhile p=1-q depend on the state of the body concerning relativity, p=1 if there is no velocity (“State A”) and p=(1/ϒ) when the body has velocity v relative to the initial reference. When the body is in “State A” between the initial time and the target time do take place n statistical trials all of them with probability pP=1P of obtaining mass-energy in alpha state, and probability qP=0P of obtaining mass-energy in beta state (that probability would affect all the quantum components of the body).  Assuming that between the initial time and the target time when we make the measurement, do take place a high number of statistical trials, then it can be assimilated the value λ frecuence of ocurrence corresponding to the Poisson´s distribution with the factors of the binomial distribution, λ=pPn.
       The q result (mass-energy in beta state) is linked to the w coordinate, so that a body that moves with velocity v relative to the refernce has associated a value of q that increases as the velocity increases, being q=(1-1/ϒ). This means, that considering those Bernoulli´s statistical events, the probability of a quantum particle of the radioactive body being altered increases, mass-energy has more probability of changing from “alpha state” to the “beta state” (which is linked to the w coordinate) the higher the velocity, the higher the probability of alteration so the higher the quantity of mass-energy in  beta state, at the expense of mass-energy in alpha state, if velocity is for example on the  x coordinate direction, the result is the contraction of that x coordinate, with dilation on the same  proportion for the w coordinate, the value of the factor p=w/w´.  This way the probability of mass-energy in alpha state is reduced, but increasing the number of statistical trials in the same proportion than the alteration of the w coordinate, then the value of the mass-energy in alpha state is restored,  λ=pPn = p´Pn´ (prime factors for the “State B”), obtaining the same value in both states for the frecuence of ocurrence factor λ.
      Similarly, considering a Schwarzschild metric scenario, where the factor p has now the value (dτ/dt) and the counterpart of the energy required by the process produces an additional distortion of the space-time. The quantity of mass-energy in beta state increases, the closer is the body to the source of the gravitational field. 
   It is wellworth noticing that the binomial distribution has associated entropy: ½ ln(2πnep(1-p))+ O(1/n)     The increase of the value n corresponds with the factor (dt/dτ) and p changes with the inverse value..
    The closer to the source of the gravitational field increases the quantity of mass-energy in beta state and increases the entropy of the physical system. The uncertainty increases as well, considering the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, it has to be added a factor to take into account the energy required by the process. The Heisenberg´s uncertainty principle implies that in order to confine a particle within a region of space-time it is required a certain quantity of energy, the amount of energy required increases as the confinement increases, the additional factor due to the proposed process implies that gravity generated by a source situated within that region of space-time further increases the energy required to confine the particle.


   A physical system corresponding to a radioactive body has been described as example. Considering a general situation, using a schematic definition of the proposal, the hypothesis implies that instead of the wave function  Ψ(r´, t´) corresponding to the Standard model of relativity,  r´and t´  representing the curvature of the space-time for the Standar Model of Relativity, there would be two wave functions   Ψ(r´´, t´´)   and  Ψ*(r´´, t´´), the first one stands for the mass-energy in alpha state and Ψ* representing the mass-energy in beta state due to the proposed process linked to gravity, r´´ and t´´ represent that the energy required by the process produces an additional distortion of the space-time. The proposed process with that mass-energy in beta state increases the entropy of the physical system as the body gets closer to the source of the gravitational field.