# Naked Science Forum

## Non Life Sciences => Technology => Topic started by: Yahya on 21/07/2018 05:23:34

Title: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/07/2018 05:23:34
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.0

what application does it need reducing torque at high amounts without losing efficiency ? as well as storing much potential energy for instance in springs ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: alancalverd on 21/07/2018 10:28:21
A clock, perhaps?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/07/2018 10:57:11
A clock, perhaps?
Hi Alan , you mean old fashioned clocks?  I need something more useful. Something could make it more  important .
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/07/2018 12:24:42
Something could make it more  important .
How have you become convinced that this idea is important?
It is not a new idea.
It is not  difficult to implement (on a sensible scale).
It is not widely used.
If it was important, everyone would be using it.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 26/07/2018 10:34:06
my clockwork could be used with parachutes to generate energy from wind instead of wind turbines , it would be better than wind turbine since pressure would be high compared to wind turbines .With relatively small parachutes we can obtain extremely high pressure , another thing is it does not need high towers to reach high  wind speed just cables to reach very high distances.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 26/07/2018 11:21:42
wind pressure equation :
P = 0.00256 x V²
V is speed in mph
P pressure in pounds per square foot

If I have 30 km/h or 18.6 mph I will have pressure of:
0.88 pounds per square foot or 42 newton per square meter , so I need only one square meter sheet to obtain 42 newtons, but the speed is 30km/h or 8 m/s then power of this one meter sheet would be:
8 m/s or 1 meter every 1/8 seconds, that is 42 newton.meter every 1/8 seconds or  336 watt, that in case of negelecting friction losses , one meter sheet would generate 332 watt power that's very convincing isn't it ?

But actually I want the parachute to go up 1 km in 4 hours that is speed of : 0.07 m/s if one meter square sheet and speed 8 meters will give me 332 watt then one square meter sheet and speed 0.07 will give me:
3 watt . For a lamp 15 watt I would need 5 square meter parachute.
5 square meters would give force of 210 newtons or a weight of  21.4 kilogram

all I have to do is set up the clockwork and set up the parachute to work for 4 hours.

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 26/07/2018 13:44:25
The 5 square meter parachute is of only 2.5 meters diameter.
If the  force on the cable is 210 N , then  I would need about 2 kg weight of steel cable. if each 1 square meter gives 42 N then for the 2 kg or  20 N I would add a half square meter to the 5 square meters
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 26/07/2018 13:50:12
http://bergey.com/wind-school/residential-wind-energy-systems
"A 10 kW wind turbine costs approximately \$48,000 – 65,000 to install. The equipment cost is about \$40,000 (see 10 kW GridTek System ) and the rest is shipping and installation"
A total of 105,000\$ for each 10 kw , compared to my idea which might cost a few thousands dollars for the same 10 kw power.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/07/2018 20:12:23
one meter sheet would generate 332 watt power that's very convincing isn't it ?

No.
Once again, you have demonstrated your inability to do simple physics.

If your sail was travelling at 8 m/s then it's at rest with respect to the wind and there would be no force on it.

Also "If I have 30 km/h"
and
all I have to do is set up the clockwork and set up the parachute to work for 4 hours.
then you need 120 km of rope.

Where do you plan to put it?
Given that you don't know what way the wind blows, you need to have space of 120km all round (in case it changes)

There may be places where you can get 45000 square km of land for under \$40K, but  not many.

How do you plan to pull the rope back without expending power?

There really is a reason why they use wind turbines.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/07/2018 20:15:39
By the way, you seem to have forgotten to answer this
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322

Please quote what you claim I said was wrong.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/07/2018 20:54:27
A clock, perhaps?
Hi Alan , you mean old fashioned clocks?  I need something more useful. Something could make it more  important .
A clock is possibly the most useful scientific instrument ever invented since the stick. It allows us to navigate precisely around the world whether in sailing ships, cars or aircraft andto carry out any and every investigation that depends on timing or sequencing.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Colin2B on 27/07/2018 09:10:16
This one"If your sail was travelling at 8 m/s then it's at rest with respect to the wind and there would be no force on it."
what do you mean by this ? if it is at rest with respect to wind, does that mean it moves without power ? what its power then?
If your sail is directly in front of an 8m/s wind it will accelerate until it is travelling at 8m/s (assuming no friction/drag), but at this point there will be no net force on the sail - because the apparent wind = 0 - and any attempt to extract work will slow it down.
If your sail can take an aerofoil shape and the wind is from the side it is possible to move faster than the true wind as the apparent wind (resultant wind vector) moves forward of the sail and is greater than the true wind.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 27/07/2018 18:04:53
If your sail is directly in front of an 8m/s wind it will accelerate until it is travelling at 8m/s (assuming no friction/drag), but at this point there will be no net force on the sail - because the apparent wind = 0 - and any attempt to extract work will slow it down
I want it to slow down at 0.07 m/s to go up only 1 km in 4 hours, so my numbers are not accurate and the actuall force I'm  using is:
V1=0.07 m/s = 1.54 mph
V2=8 m/s = 18.6 mph

P = 0.00256 x V²
V=V2-V1= 17 mph
P = 0.00256 x V²= 0.73 pounds per square foot =35 Pa , i.e 35 N instead of 42 N so I have to increase the parachute area a little bit by a factor of (42/35)=1.2 then the 5  square meter should in fact be :
5*1.2=6
the parachute area should be 6 square meter instead of 5
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/07/2018 18:14:52
This one"If your sail was travelling at 8 m/s then it's at rest with respect to the wind and there would be no force on it."
what do you mean by this ? if it is at rest with respect to wind, does that mean it moves without power ? what its power then?
...
Has something gone missing or did Yahya write something silly, then delete it?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/07/2018 18:18:07
I want it to slow down at 0.07 m/s to go up only 1 km in 4 hours
If the  force on the cable is 210 N
Then the power is 210 times 0.07 which is about 15 Watts.
Which is not going to change the world. If you look at the excretion rate and heat of combustion for urea you will find that a typical adult pisses about 10 watts.

You really need to learn some physics, but, in the mean time you might like to reply to this
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
because not replying to it makes you look impolite and foolish.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 27/07/2018 19:06:53

This one"If your sail was travelling at 8 m/s then it's at rest with respect to the wind and there would be no force on it."
what do you mean by this ? if it is at rest with respect to wind, does that mean it moves without power ? what its power then?
...
Has something gone missing or did Yahya write something silly, then delete it?
You forgot to qoute your actual mistake which is:
"then you need 120 km of rope."
the speed is  only 0.07 m/s for 4 hours, why do I need such long rope ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 27/07/2018 19:26:11
I want it to slow down at 0.07 m/s to go up only 1 km in 4 hours
If the  force on the cable is 210 N
Then the power is 210 times 0.07 which is about 15 Watts.
Which is not going to change the world. If you look at the excretion rate and heat of combustion for urea you will find that a typical adult pisses about 10 watts.
Nonsense it would only be several milliwatts.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 27/07/2018 20:31:49
Nonsense it would only be several milliwatts.

Now you've got me curious enough to calculate it for myself. According to http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v32je16.htm:

Quote
Average daily urinary excretion of urea in adults was estimated to be 20.6 g.

According to https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C57136&Units=SI&Mask=2#Thermo-Condensed, the heat of combustion of urea is 635,000 joules per mole. Since the molar mass of urea is 60.06 grams per mole, that would be 10,573 joules per gram. Multiplying this by the daily excretion of urea by humans of 20.6 grams, that would be 217,799 joules per day. Divided by 24 is 9,075 joules per hour, which divided by 60 is 151 joules per minute, which divided by 60 again is 2.5 joules per second (equal to 2.5 watts). I found another reference that states 30 grams of urea excretion per day is plausible: https://www.britannica.com/science/human-renal-system/Human-excretion. That would increase the rate to about 3.6 watts.

That's certainly a lot more than "several milliwatts".
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 27/07/2018 20:49:32
Then the power is 210 times 0.07 which is about 15 Watts.
Which is not going to change the world.
15 watt by using 6 square meters parachute which costs nothing compared to wind turbines, and it does not need installing high towers.
http://bergey.com/wind-school/residential-wind-energy-systems
"A 10 kW wind turbine costs approximately \$48,000 – 65,000 to install. The equipment cost is about \$40,000 (see 10 kW GridTek System ) and the rest is shipping and installation"
A total of 105,000\$ for each 10 kw , compared to my idea which might cost a few thousands dollars for the same 10 kw power.
\$157.5 for each 15 watts beside the installation of high towers , my clockwork doesn't need high towers.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 01:22:14
the speed is  only 0.07 m/s for 4 hours, why do I need such long rope ?
You seem to have  moved the goal posts by editing your posts.
My calculation was based on what you originally posted. You can tell- I quoted you.
Speaking of quotes.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322

I want it to slow down at 0.07 m/s to go up only 1 km in 4 hours
If the  force on the cable is 210 N
Then the power is 210 times 0.07 which is about 15 Watts.
Which is not going to change the world. If you look at the excretion rate and heat of combustion for urea you will find that a typical adult pisses about 10 watts.
Nonsense it would only be several milliwatts.
I was aiming for an order of magnitude estimate.
It seems you were aiming for misrepresentation.
How did you come to your conclusion?

parachute which costs nothing
So, you are talking about a fairy tale parachute- rather than a real one.
That's OK, but why are you doing that on a science web page?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/07/2018 10:29:04
Can't find the reference to "a parachute which costs nothing" but I'm happy to pay the postage on 30 such devices, delivered to my gliding club.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 11:56:07
Can't find the reference to "a parachute which costs nothing" but I'm happy to pay the postage on 30 such devices, delivered to my gliding club.

:-)

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 13:17:05
A parachute to generate 17.4 watt should be 3 meter in diameter and that costs \$19:
https://www.amazon.com/Foot-Play-Parachute-Handles-Multicolored/dp/B01BYK3JIY
if 5 square meter gives 210 N force then the 3 meter parachute or 7 square meter gives:
1.4*210=294 N then I would need gears to bear this force I'm not sure how much these gears would cost but that wouldn't be so much, the first gear in the clockwork needs to be big and strong to bear high torque but the last gear undergoes only small torque, comparing that to wind turbine which might cost \$183 for 17.5 watt
P.S:
Larger parachutes have low price than small ones" I think according to area"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 14:03:39
Why bother with the gears?
Why not just build a  generator that matches the available force and speed?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 14:21:53
Why bother with the gears?
Why not just build a  generator that matches the available force and speed?
Because I would need high ratios, for 1 km and 4 hours about 110:1 gear ratio.I don't think an ordinary clockwork would function efficiently with 110:1 and if height is lower and period is longer more ratios are needed
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 14:56:54
By the way I would need small number of gears for this ratio :
four gears with ratios : 3:1,3:1,3:1,4:1
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 15:18:35
Why bother with the gears?
Why not just build a  generator that matches the available force and speed?
Because I would need high ratios, for 1 km and 4 hours about 110:1 gear ratio.I don't think an ordinary clockwork would function efficiently with 110:1 and if height is lower and period is longer more ratios are needed
You have completely missed the point.
You do not need gears if you use a generator that is matched the to the energy supply.

Incidentally, ordinary clocks have gears that drive the second hand, and the hour hand which implies a ratio of at least 3600 to 1 so your idea that "an ordinary clockwork would function efficiently with 110:1 " is just silly.
A school kid wouldn't have made that mistake.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 15:33:54
Incidentally, ordinary clocks have gears that drive the second hand, and the hour hand which implies a ratio of at least 3600 to 1 so your idea that "an ordinary clockwork would function efficiently with 110:1 " is just silly.
A school kid wouldn't have made that mistake.
You have to review gears efficiency then you would find that a clock is not efficient it has strong spring with much power but it hardly moves its arms it has very small friction
You can't use high ratios for power applications, can you use a ratio of 100:1 to run a bicycle ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 15:39:18
By the way it is impossible to be 3600:1 you should consider that the input spring has much more cycle capacity , so it is not just only one cycle for the spring to be charged.
If the spring has 30 cycles then the ratio will only be 120:1
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 16:03:49

By the way it is impossible to be 3600:1
It can not be impossible- every mechanical clock has one.

can you use a ratio of 100:1 to run a bicycle ?
You are getting near to the actual point here.
What use would a bike with a 100:1 ratio be?
Either it would be stupidly high or stupidly low.
That's because the rest of the bike- essentially the size of the wheels- is made to work with a gear ratio near 1:1

In the same way, you can make a generator for your parachute + string system that would need a ratio near 1:1
And when you do that, you don't need a gearbox.

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 17:11:20

By the way it is impossible to be 3600:1
It can not be impossible- every mechanical clock has one.

can you use a ratio of 100:1 to run a bicycle ?
You are getting near to the actual point here.
What use would a bike with a 100:1 ratio be?
Either it would be stupidly high or stupidly low.
That's because the rest of the bike- essentially the size of the wheels- is made to work with a gear ratio near 1:1

In the same way, you can make a generator for your parachute + string system that would need a ratio near 1:1
And when you do that, you don't need a gearbox.

You are wrong.

it says 60:1

"That's because the rest of the bike- essentially the size of the wheels- is made to work with a gear ratio near 1:1"
No , it is because it won't has sufficient efficiency if larger ratios are used
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 19:00:55
it won't has sufficient efficiency if larger ratios are used
Gearboxes do not change the available energy.

You are wrong.
Well, OK, I messed up the arithmetic
Google is not God. It can find stuff that's wrong.
The second hand of a clock goes round 60 times faster than the minute hand and the hour hand goes 12 or 24 times slower.
So the ratio of the speeds is 720 to 1
And there must be  a gear chain in the clock with (at least) that ratio.
How else could the hands move at the right speeds?

"Thus the overall gear ratio from the second hand gear to the hour hand gear is set as 720:12:1. "

from
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~yuqingz/report/me588_2012f.pdf

You are just not thinking straight here.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 19:46:12
You are wrong.
Well, OK, I messed up the arithmetic
Google is not God. It can find stuff that's wrong.
Please be honest and quote what I post It is :
NOT:
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 19:52:28
It's not dishonest because I never said, or implied that I was quoting you in full. I just truncated it.

I just cited a page that shows you are wrong.
The page isn't really important because it's obvious that you are wrong  on two counts .
The hour hand moves 720 times slower than the second hand.
So there must be a 720 : 1 ratio gear box in there.

And you still don't need a gearbox if you design the generator properly.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/07/2018 20:56:32
I just cited a page that shows you are wrong.
The page isn't really important because it's obvious that you are wrong  on two counts .
The hour hand moves 720 times slower than the second hand.
So there must be a 720 : 1 ratio gear box in there.

Gear ratios can be way, way higher than that too!

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 28/07/2018 21:04:47
I just cited a page that shows you are wrong.
The page isn't really important because it's obvious that you are wrong  on two counts .
The hour hand moves 720 times slower than the second hand.
So there must be a 720 : 1 ratio gear box in there.

Gear ratios can be way, way higher than that too!

There is a difference gear ratios for speed increment can't be , and the higher the ratio is the lower the efficiency is.
what I'm talking about is gears for speed increment . it has  maximum value for good efficiency .
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2018 21:36:13

Have you come to your senses about the gears in clocks yet?

Also, have you accepted that gears don't increase the energy  available.

It's true that high ratios tend to be inefficient.
The best ratio is 1:1, because then you don't need a gearbox and so you don't have to accept any inefficiency in it..
And, if you design the generator correctly, that's what happens.
So why do you think your gear system is helpful, given that it is redundant in this case?

When you have answered those, you can get back to this one- you keep trying to ignore it- is that because it shows you to be a fool?
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 07:10:55
So why do you think your gear system is helpful, given that it is redundant in this case?
You said :
It's true that high ratios tend to be inefficient.
A parachute needs high ratios to reach 1 Km in 4 hours , if ratio is small it will reach 1 Km in perhaps minutes, but high ratios without my clockwork are inefficient that why my clockwork is important.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 07:23:48
You have to ask yourself a question:
Why turbines are used today instead of this method even if it gives much power than turbines ? if it does not need complicated tools such as my clockwork , why not it is already used ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2018 09:32:09
You have to ask yourself a question:
Why turbines are used today instead of this method even if it gives much power than turbines ? if it does not need complicated tools such as my clockwork , why not it is already used ?
Because it's a stupidly inefficient use of land, as I already pointed out (before you moved the goalposts).

A parachute needs high ratios to reach 1 Km in 4 hours , if ratio is small it will reach 1 Km in perhaps minutes, but high ratios without my clockwork are inefficient that why my clockwork is important.
Why do you persist in ignoring the fact that you do not need a gearbox if you build a suitable generator?

And, don't forget to reply to this, or people will think you don't know what you are talking about.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 09:50:09
You have to ask yourself a question:
Why turbines are used today instead of this method even if it gives much power than turbines ? if it does not need complicated tools such as my clockwork , why not it is already used ?
Because it's a stupidly inefficient use of land, as I already pointed out (before you moved the goalposts).

A parachute needs high ratios to reach 1 Km in 4 hours , if ratio is small it will reach 1 Km in perhaps minutes, but high ratios without my clockwork are inefficient that why my clockwork is important.
Why do you persist in ignoring the fact that you do not need a gearbox if you build a suitable generator?

And, don't forget to reply to this, or people will think you don't know what you are talking about.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
OK, if everyone here thinks you are right and I am wrong then OK, my clockwork is redundant and this methods is in fact useless.
And I apologize because you have never been wrong before, and you are right in everything you say.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2018 10:01:25
And I apologize because you have never been wrong before, and you are right in everything you say.
It's nothing to do with me. The people here will believe the evidence.
For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient. (They may consider that sunlight delivers tens of gigawatts to that area, and almost any solar power system could extract more than 15 watts from it)
Do you not agree with that assessment?
They will think that a mechanical clock with a second hand and an hour hand will include a gear train with a ratio of 720 to 1
Do you not agree with that?

And I think they will agree that the most efficient gear box is one that you don't actually use. That way it can't waste any power.

Perhaps you should go back to this thread and try to answer it.

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 18:36:31
For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient. (They may consider that sunlight delivers tens of gigawatts to that area, and almost any solar power system could extract more than 15 watts from it)
Do you not agree with that assessment?
No,what circles are you talking about I did not mention any circles of radius 4km ?

They will think that a mechanical clock with a second hand and an hour hand will include a gear train with a ratio of 720 to 1
Do you not agree with that?

No, you said 720:12:1 which is a total of 1:60 and that  is what I said
"Thus the overall gear ratio from the second hand gear to the hour hand gear is set as 720:12:1. "

And I think they will agree that the most efficient gear box is one that you don't actually use. That way it can't waste any power.

More efficient but is not practical for the purpose I mentioned the ratio should be high and gearbox for speed increment are not practical at high ratio.
"It's true that high ratios tend to be inefficient."

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2018 18:54:51
No,what circles are you talking about I did not mention any circles of radius 4km ?
No.
You did not mention it- because you have yet to think this through.
However I did point out that you can't guarantee what direction the wind will blow- so you need 4 km in each direction from the generator.

No, you said 720:12:1 which is a total of 1:60 and that  is what I said

How on earth did you come to believe that 720 to 1 magically becomes 60 to 1 just because you also have a gear that's 12 to 1.?

"More efficient but is not practical for the purpose I mentioned" and you agreed "the ratio should be high and gearbox for speed increment are not practical at high ratio."

How many times do I have to ask this

WHY DO YOU WANT TO USE A GEARBOX WHEN YOU DON'T NEED ONE?
And, come to that how many times  do I need you to address this?

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 19:19:13
You did not mention it- because you have yet to think this through.
However I did point out that you can't guarantee what direction the wind will blow- so you need 4 km in each direction from the generator.

The parachute would be up on the sky 1 km height using something like a kite to go up. it does not matter this circle because it will not be on earth.

How on earth did you come to believe that 720 to 1 magically becomes 60 to 1 just because you also have a gear that's 12 to 1.?

OK even so it would be of low efficiency as well and barely moves its arms.

How many times do I have to ask this

WHY DO YOU WANT TO USE A GEARBOX WHEN YOU DON'T NEED ONE?
OK could you just give me how you imagine a generator without a gearbox , just think about it , think on it part by part starting from the input torque and the ratio desired and the rope length the speed of the parachute and its torque on the generator, I understand it because I did much calculations but you did not do any.
if you agree the parachute would reach 1km height in say 6 minutes , would that be practical to rise again and again each 6 minutes to a height of 1km.

And, come to that how many times  do I need you to address this?

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.msg549322#msg549322

what are you repeating here ? you told me to shut up on that thread and I did.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 29/07/2018 19:22:25
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2018 19:35:09
you told me to shut up on that thread and I did.
What I said was " shut up and apologise."
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 30/07/2018 07:35:29
you told me to shut up on that thread and I did.
What I said was " shut up and apologise."
Apologize for what ? I said you post nonsense because I'm not convinced of what you posted, but I can't quote because most of your posts in the thread are nonsense to me.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 30/07/2018 09:17:27
Why turbines are used today instead of this method even if it gives much power than turbines ? if it does not need complicated tools such as my clockwork , why not it is already used ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/07/2018 21:35:09
you told me to shut up on that thread and I did.
What I said was " shut up and apologise."
Apologize for what ? I said you post nonsense because I'm not convinced of what you posted, but I can't quote because most of your posts in the thread are nonsense to me.

If you didn't understand my posts  it's because (as has been shown repeatedly) you do not understand the subject.
Also, if you don't understand it then you are in no position to say if I'm right or wrong.

In fact, I'm right.
That's why you can't quote me saying something wrong.

You said- in that thread- that I was wrong.
So, (yet again) either quote what  I said which was wrong or apologise for lying about me.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/07/2018 21:37:05
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
If you think the parachute will go vertically up, which way do you think the wind is blowing?

This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 06:15:53
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
If you think the parachute will go vertically up, which way do you think the wind is blowing?

This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.
How this is relevant to the subject ? it doesn't matter the direction of the wind.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 20:25:51
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
If you think the parachute will go vertically up, which way do you think the wind is blowing?

This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.
How this is relevant to the subject ? it doesn't matter the direction of the wind.
This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.

Why would a parachute rise vertically?
Have you gone back to your absurd balloon idea again or something?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 21:10:36
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
If you think the parachute will go vertically up, which way do you think the wind is blowing?

This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.
How this is relevant to the subject ? it doesn't matter the direction of the wind.
This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.

Why would a parachute rise vertically?
Have you gone back to your absurd balloon idea again or something?

I will use a kite a sheet just like an airplane it goes up while moving horizontally
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 21:24:02
EDIT:
The parachute won't even make a circle on the sky because it goes up with a kite vertically.
If you think the parachute will go vertically up, which way do you think the wind is blowing?

This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.
How this is relevant to the subject ? it doesn't matter the direction of the wind.
This sort of thing is what proves you do not understand the subject.

Why would a parachute rise vertically?
Have you gone back to your absurd balloon idea again or something?

I will use a kite a sheet just like an airplane it goes up while moving horizontally

I presume you don't understand the formula about work = force times distance.

The force has to act along the same line as the movement for that equation to work.
If the parachute/ kite does not travel along 120 meters in the direction of the wind (in addition to whatever height it gains) then you won't get the energy you thought you would.

It really would be better if you stopped posting until you learned some science.l
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 21:30:32
I know but I can increase area for that loss. still less expensive than turbines
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 21:41:11
I know but I can increase area for that loss. still less expensive than turbines
Yes, but you still need to set aside a space big enough to fly the kite and that's huge, and much more expensive than teh turbine.

You need to learn some science.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 21:48:25
I know but I can increase area for that loss. still less expensive than turbines
Yes, but you still need to set aside a space big enough to fly the kite and that's huge, and much more expensive than teh turbine.

You need to learn some science.
If the angle is 45 degrees force would be 1/√2)F , I would need √2 * area , instead of 6 square meters I would need 8.6 square meters not that much increase
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 22:02:46
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 22:07:44
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 22:22:26
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.

Are you really to dim to realise that without being told, or are you trolling?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 31/07/2018 22:25:10
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.
It is for power stations and places where no many houses .
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 22:32:44
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.
It is for power stations and places where no many houses .

So what?
Either it will be in an empty space- in which case my comment about the stupid use of land is right, or it has neighbours who will not want their roof ripped off.

Are you really to dim to realise that without being told, or are you trolling?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2018 22:41:47
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.
It is for power stations and places where no many houses .

So what?
Either it will be in an empty space- in which case my comment about the stupid use of land is right, or it has neighbours who will not want their roof ripped off.

Are you really to dim to realise that without being told, or are you trolling?

empty space on the sky not on the ground.
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.

Are you really to dim to realise that without being told, or are you trolling?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Ophiolite on 01/08/2018 17:15:50
So, you have roughly halved the area you need.
Do you think that helps much?

For example, they will think that setting aside a circle of land 4 3 km in radius to generate 15 Watts is inefficient.

The area is in the sky not on ground why people care about it ?
Because, if the wind stops suddenly you will be dragging a cable through their property and will wreck stuff.
It is for power stations and places where no many houses .
And where there are no houses there are roads, farmland with crops or livestock, rivers, power lines, hedgerows, fences . . .  the list goes on. Your idea is impractical on almost every level. There is an outside chance that it could be developed into something of interest. Unfotunately your refusal to admit to its current failings  ensure that it will never be anything more than a concatentation of nonsense.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 01/08/2018 17:26:36
There is an outside chance that it could be developed into something of interest. Unfotunately your refusal to admit to its current failings  ensure that it will never be anything more than a concatentation of nonsense.
What do you think this something it could be developed into and I will give you 1 million dollars ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 01/08/2018 18:12:02
https://spectrum.mit.edu/winter-2011/super-springs/
"She and colleagues have found that carbon nanotubes, in contrast, should have very high energy densities, potentially over 1,000 times those of steel and close to those of the best batteries"

"And, unlike batteries, which become harder to recharge over time, the energy stored in super springs should stay constant. Livermore says: “Think of your grandmother’s watch. It’s likely that the spring still works, and how many times has it been ‘recharged’ [rewound]?”

"They also have high power densities — they can release a large amount of energy quickly"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 01/08/2018 18:16:08
energy density of steel spring is 0.0003 Mj/kg if it is 1000 times that then it is 0.3 Mj/kg close to energy density of lithium ion battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Reference_Table
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2018 19:30:02
There is an outside chance that it could be developed into something of interest. Unfotunately your refusal to admit to its current failings  ensure that it will never be anything more than a concatentation of nonsense.
What do you think this something it could be developed into and I will give you 1 million dollars ?
It could be developed into a situation comedy.
More realistically, it could be developed into an illustration for a high school lesson in how not to post on a science forum.
energy density of steel spring is 0.0003 Mj/kg if it is 1000 times that then...
But it isn't.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 01/08/2018 21:21:45
energy density of steel spring is 0.0003 Mj/kg if it is 1000 times that then...
But it isn't.
I gave you the link of MIT and quote:
https://spectrum.mit.edu/winter-2011/super-springs/
"She and colleagues have found that carbon nanotubes, in contrast, should have very high energy densities, potentially over 1,000 times those of steel and close to those of the best batteries"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2018 22:01:00
Seen the price of carbon nanotubes?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/08/2018 22:07:13
What do you think this something it could be developed into and I will give you 1 million dollars ?

You don't have a million dollars to give.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 01/08/2018 22:15:59
What do you think this something it could be developed into and I will give you 1 million dollars ?

You don't have a million dollars to give.
right
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 02/08/2018 08:53:25
Seen the price of carbon nanotubes?
https://www.cheaptubes.com/product-category/multi-walled-carbon-nanotubes/
According to the link it costs 10-15 dollars for each gram , 1000\$ for a kg,  let's say it is storing 20 watt for 4 hours will need a kilo gram of this material costing \$1000, this amount of energy is 80wh costing 200\$ using lithium ion batteries , then carbon nanotube is more expensive than lithium ion but it last longer:

"And, unlike batteries, which become harder to recharge over time, the energy stored in super springs should stay constant. Livermore says: “Think of your grandmother’s watch. It’s likely that the spring still works, and how many times has it been ‘recharged’ [rewound]?”

And carbon nanotube is abundant.

And other features that is not available in lithium
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/08/2018 19:19:15
According to the link it costs 10-15 dollars for each gram , 1000\$ for a kg,  let's say it is storing 20 watt for 4 hours will need a kilo gram of this material costing \$1000, this amount of energy is 80wh costing 200\$ using lithium ion batteries , then carbon nanotube is more expensive than lithium ion but it last longer:

And, once again, you show how bad you are at this sort of thing.
" 10-15 dollars for each gram , 1000\$ for a kg"
No, that's \$15,000 per Kg

So, it's more than 10 times the price of lithium technology.
And you are ignoring the other infrastructure costs.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 02/08/2018 20:42:02
According to the link it costs 10-15 dollars for each gram , 1000\$ for a kg,  let's say it is storing 20 watt for 4 hours will need a kilo gram of this material costing \$1000, this amount of energy is 80wh costing 200\$ using lithium ion batteries , then carbon nanotube is more expensive than lithium ion but it last longer:

And, once again, you show how bad you are at this sort of thing.
" 10-15 dollars for each gram , 1000\$ for a kg"
No, that's \$15,000 per Kg

So, it's more than 10 times the price of lithium technology.
And you are ignoring the other infrastructure costs.

If you you chose 15\$ and click " select options" and chose your amount as 1000 grams it will give 1330\$ for each 1 kg
instead of 1500.But this its price at larger amounts:
it costs 450\$ for each Kg about double the price of lithium ion battery. it is even cheaper for larger amounts:
select your amount as 10 000 kg it will give 4350\$ instead of 4500\$. othor options are here:
https://www.ctimaterials.com/product-category/industrial-carbon-nanotubes-products/
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 02/08/2018 21:12:59
some are extremely cheap like this one:

which costs 19,900\$ for each 100 kg the same price as lithium ion batteries but has better features than lithium ion batteries
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/08/2018 22:12:20
some are extremely cheap like this one:

which costs 19,900\$ for each 100 kg the same price as lithium ion batteries but has better features than lithium ion batteries
Do you think the cheap stuff is the good stuff?
Or do you think the material that stores a thosand times more energy than steel is going to be a special grade that's expensive?

BTW, you seem to have missed the importance of a word or two here
"She and colleagues have found that carbon nanotubes, in contrast, should have very high energy densities, potentially over 1,000 times those of steel and close to those of the best batteries"

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 03/08/2018 08:27:06
some are extremely cheap like this one:

which costs 19,900\$ for each 100 kg the same price as lithium ion batteries but has better features than lithium ion batteries
Do you think the cheap stuff is the good stuff?
Or do you think the material that stores a thosand times more energy than steel is going to be a special grade that's expensive?
But the most expensive one is 4330\$ for each 10  kg       https://www.ctimaterials.com/product-category/industrial-carbon-nanotubes-products/ , and it gets cheaper for larger amounts, because carbon nanotube is abundant it could be used in large amounts i.e tonnes to store a lot of energy:
"Industrial Grade Carbon Nanotubes are well suited to large volume, cost sensitive applications that require the superior strength that CNT addition can provide in a product.  Available by the kg or ton."
.The only solution for grid scale storage . beside it lasts longer than lithium ion batteries
BTW, you seem to have missed the importance of a word or two here
"She and colleagues have found that carbon nanotubes, in contrast, should have very high energy densities, potentially over 1,000 times those of steel and close to those of the best batteries"
Energy density is in fact more than 1000 times steel spring:
"She and colleagues have found that carbon nanotubes, in contrast, should have very high energy densities, potentially over 1,000 times those of steel and close to those of the best batteries. They also have high power densities"

And in this site:
https://www.northeastern.edu/rise/presentations/carbon-nanotube-springs-for-high-energy-density-high-power-density-portable-power-systems/

"offer excellent energy storage per unit weight – more than 1000x greater than steel springs"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2018 14:27:34
If- and it's a big if- it turns out that springs made from nanotubes are economically viable as an energy store there's still no reason to suppose that your gears system will be used to harvest that energy.
Once you add the great big gearbox, you will find that the energy storage density isn't anything likes as good as it looked.
As I said, you have failed to look at the infrastructure.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 04/08/2018 20:17:38

As I said, you have failed to look at the infrastructure.
I've had .For a generater 60 Hz for 4 hours I would need 864000 revolutions and a total ratio of 28800:1. I would need 7 gears of ratio 3:1 and an eighth gear of ratio 1:12" the eigth one is for the generator". The generator torque for 20 watt is 0.05 N-m then input gear torque "first gear "would be:
0.05*28800=1440 N-m if the first gear is 1 meters radius I would need 1440 N force on the second's gear teeth.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2018 21:12:21
You want to to store 20W for 4 hrs.
80 watt hours or about a penny's worth of electricity.
How much will the gears cost?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 04/08/2018 22:40:35
I don't need to use 1 m radius gear but I don't know its price.
If the gear is 0.1 meter radius the force on the teeth would be 14400 N but I don't know how wide the gear should to bear the shear force perhaps only 3 cm ? Also each gear moving from side to side will not leave the nearby gear suddenly it will leave after touching the other nearby gear on the other side reducing witdth needed for gears, but in fact I need the first gears to be bigger but not all the gears perhaps only one gear
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2018 22:48:26
What is the point of storing so little electricity?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 05:21:08
What is the point of storing so little electricity?

I don't understand your question but lithium won't be practical for grid scale storage .I could use tonnes and tonnes of carbon nanotube material as it is abundant, another thing using lithium ion batteries with solar panels is more expensive it would need electronic devices for electricity manipulation but I could use a motor to charge the clockwork using solar panels and a generator to generate electricity again , my clockwork with carbon nanotube is for huge grid scale energy storage with solar panels.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 09:22:46
I'm not surprised, but here we go again
For a generater 60 Hz for 4 hours
The generator torque for 20 watt
So, your calculation shows how to store 20 Watts for 4 hours
That's  80 watt hours of energy or 0.08 kilowatt hours.
My domestic electricity costs about £0.13 per kilowatt hour.

So you are proposing to store £0.0104 worth of electricity

And then you talk about "grid scale".

It's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 09:43:15
I deleted my post because I think it is not accurate since the cost of gears ,carbon nano tube and solar panels is one time cost only then electricity would be free using the clockwork and the solar panels
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 09:51:32
I deleted my post because I think it is not accurate since the cost of gears ,carbon nano tube and solar panels is one time cost only then electricity would be free using the clockwork and the solar panels
If you ignore the  one time costs then power from solar panels is free. You don't need the clockwork.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 10:14:55
I deleted my post because I think it is not accurate since the cost of gears ,carbon nano tube and solar panels is one time cost only then electricity would be free using the clockwork and the solar panels
If you ignore the  one time costs then power from solar panels is free. You don't need the clockwork.
Solar panels alone are not reliable they always need storage at night.For them to replace fuel they need grid scale good storage. There is a need for renewable energy due to dangerous environmental issues
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 10:20:19
For them to replace fuel they need grid scale good storage.
And how does your proposal to store a penny's worth of electricity help?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 10:36:47
For them to replace fuel they need grid scale good storage.
And how does your proposal to store a penny's worth of electricity help?
They could build a huge clockwork with huge gears and tonnes of carbon nano tube, carbon nano tube is cheaper for larger amounts cheaper than " 450\$ for 1 kg " and it is abundant and my clockwork is more practical also for larger projects.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 13:02:40
You have never yet, in any of your posts  explained why your clockwork is anything new.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: syhprum on 05/08/2018 15:34:01
One additional complexity about storing energy in stressed carbon fibre nanotubes is one that watch makers recognised 300 years ago is that the rate of release of energy drops of rapidly so the fusee was developed to cope with this problem, it is rather like recovering the energy stored in a capacitor and bulky electronics are required.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 15:51:57
You have never yet, in any of your posts  explained why your clockwork is anything new.
https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/nanotechnology/carbon-nanotube-super-springs
Given the promise of CNT springs, it’s easy to imagine ways they could help power a green and efficient future.
If this material has a future then there is not another and efficient way to  use it but my clockwork
just like syhprum added springs  releases energy rapidly
One additional complexity about storing energy in stressed carbon fibre nanotubes is one that watch makers recognised 300 years ago is that the rate of release of energy drops of rapidly so the fusee was developed to cope with this problem, it is rather like recovering the energy stored in a capacitor and bulky electronics are required.
Springs need a tool to make energy release at longer periods
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 15:58:25
Springs need a tool to make energy release at longer periods
So, you still have yet to understand that you can build a generator with a large torque.
Why is that?
What's the problem  with you?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 16:27:37
Springs need a tool to make energy release at longer periods
So, you still have yet to understand that you can build a generator with a large torque.
Why is that?
What's the problem  with you?
let me make some calculations:
The generator should be 60 Hz , but at  most the spring could store only say 50 cycles and let say we have at most ratio 1:4 then number of revolutions are :
50*4=200 revolutions , and we have 60 Hz or 60 revolutions per seconds then the energy on spring will be released in about 200/60=3.33 seconds , this is the problem of springs syhprum mentioned but my clockwork " as I mentioned with my calculations" solve such problem making super spring release energy in 4 hours instead of 3.33 seconds
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 17:05:02
Congratulations; you have just proved why springs are not a good way to do this.

You have never yet, in any of your posts  explained why your clockwork is anything new.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 18:16:21
Congratulations; you have just proved why springs are not a good way to do this.

You have never yet, in any of your posts  explained why your clockwork is anything new.

my clockwork can achieve large ratios such as 28800:1 I mentioned " this is why I invented it in order to achieve high ratios"applying this ratio to the above calculations will make energy release in 4 hours
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 18:21:34
my clockwork can achieve large ratios such as 28800:1
So can ordinary clockwork.
You already lost that argument when you failed to understand that a normal clock has a high ratio.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 18:45:37
my clockwork can achieve large ratios such as 28800:1
So can ordinary clockwork.
You already lost that argument when you failed to understand that a normal clock has a high ratio.
As high as 28800:1 ? and this is for 4 hours only for longer periods the ratio needed is higher .you said efficiency reduces at high ratios. So what about 28800:1 ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 18:53:48
You seem not to understand: your system- because it has a high gear ratio- will be inefficient.
You also seem to have forgotten that someone posted a video of a gearbox with a ratio of millions to one.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 05/08/2018 19:02:54
if you trace my clockwork motion you find out that it transfers energy from gear to gear in steps avoiding connecting gears directly at once.making it function just as a gearbox of small ratio and making it of high efficiency compared to an ordinary high ratio gearbox
The gearbox posted by Kriptid is different it is for speed reduction however 1000000:1 is impossiple when used the opposite way i.e for speed increment then it becomes inefficient
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/08/2018 19:52:22
if you trace my clockwork motion y
You never actually explained properly what the device is or does.
However, stopping + starting thing in steps seldom improves efficiency.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: syhprum on 05/08/2018 21:51:36
There are better ways of using carbon nanotubes in energy storage devices, flywheels using them are in commercial production.
Why this strange obsession with gear boxes they can only output slightly less power than is imputed to them regardless of ratios
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 06/08/2018 15:58:24
Do you think this idea deserves investment?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/08/2018 18:30:43
Do you think this idea deserves investment?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 16:41:16
So, your calculation shows how to store 20 Watts for 4 hours
That's  80 watt hours of energy or 0.08 kilowatt hours.
My domestic electricity costs about £0.13 per kilowatt hour.

So you are proposing to store £0.0104 worth of electricity

And then you talk about "grid scale".

It's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
why not applying my clockwork for grid scale usage instead of the small amount? I would need larger gears , springs and much amounts of carbon nanotube which turned out to be cheaper
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2018 20:03:00
why not applying my clockwork for grid scale usage instead of the small amount? I would need larger gears , springs and much amounts of carbon nanotube which turned out to be cheaper

WHy bother?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 20:18:19
why not applying my clockwork for grid scale usage instead of the small amount? I would need larger gears , springs and much amounts of carbon nanotube which turned out to be cheaper

WHy bother?
To store billions of solar panel cells energy worldwide
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2018 20:25:47
why not applying my clockwork for grid scale usage instead of the small amount? I would need larger gears , springs and much amounts of carbon nanotube which turned out to be cheaper

WHy bother?
To store billions of solar panel cells energy worldwide
But we have better ways to do that. For example, we have ways that will store more than £0.0104 worth of electricity.
We could use flywheels.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 20:30:08
why not applying my clockwork for grid scale usage instead of the small amount? I would need larger gears , springs and much amounts of carbon nanotube which turned out to be cheaper

WHy bother?
To store billions of solar panel cells energy worldwide
But we have better ways to do that. For example, we have ways that will store more than £0.0104 worth of electricity.
We could use flywheels.
flywheels store energy for a very short period of time "seconds"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2018 20:33:43
flywheels store energy for a very short period of time "seconds"
OK, so you do not understand how flywheels work.
Why not look it up, rather than posting stuff that makes you look silly?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 20:41:18
flywheels store energy for a very short period of time "seconds"
OK, so you do not understand how flywheels work.
Why not look it up, rather than posting stuff that makes you look silly?
It can't store energy for hours could it ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2018 20:46:52
flywheels store energy for a very short period of time "seconds"
OK, so you do not understand how flywheels work.
Why not look it up, rather than posting stuff that makes you look silly?
It can't store energy for hours could it ?
Why not look it up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 21:01:23
flywheels store energy for a very short period of time "seconds"
OK, so you do not understand how flywheels work.
Why not look it up, rather than posting stuff that makes you look silly?
It can't store energy for hours could it ?
Why not look it up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus

"Fully charged, a gyrobus could typically travel as far as 6 km (3.7 mi) on a level route at speeds of up to 50 to 60 km/h (31 to 37 mph), depending on vehicle batch (load), as top speeds varied from batch to batch"

6 km with speed 50 km/h that is a duration of 7.2 minutes

Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2018 21:19:58
So, 10 of them could store over an hour's worth- or you could draw off a tenth of the power for over an hour.
How many of your silly little 80 watt hour stores would it take to match that?

Also, it's likely that technology has improved in the intervening 60 or 70 years.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 13/09/2018 21:34:23
So, 10 of them could store over an hour's worth- or you could draw off a tenth of the power for over an hour.

you can't multiply the duration of one flywheel using 10 of them because flywheels do not keep energy for longer periods they should release it as soon as they are charged.You can't charge 100 flywheels in the afternoon to be used at night.
you can't multiply duration by using part of the energy
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/09/2018 19:46:22
you can't multiply the duration of one flywheel using 10 of them because flywheels do not keep energy for longer periods they should release it as soon as they are charged.You can't charge 100 flywheels in the afternoon to be used at night.
you can't multiply duration by using part of the energy

Why not?
Do you not understand that good bearings and a vacuum chamber will ensure that the flywheel will keep spinning for a long time?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/09/2018 20:11:42

Here's a quote of importance from page 76: "The longest it's spun without power has been about 36 hours."

This was from an issue of Popular Science from 1979. No doubt the technology has improved a lot since then.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 14/09/2018 21:07:42
In principle an object in vacuum could rotate forever, but in practice when there is friction and the energy is in fact consumed as  the example of the gyrobus it is not more than 6 km , 50 km/h  and 7.2 minutes
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/09/2018 22:10:41
In principle an object in vacuum could rotate forever

Technically, no. Matter contains electric charges and any accelerating electric charge radiates electromagnetic radiation. Although it would take an enormous span of time, any spinning object would eventually slow down even in a perfect vacuum.

Quote
but in practice when there is friction and the energy is in fact consumed as  the example of the gyrobus it is not more than 6 km , 50 km/h  and 7.2 minutes

Maybe for the gyrobus, but the flywheel I posted spins for 36 hours (and that includes air friction). In a vacuum chamber it would spin even longer.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 13:16:23
In principle an object in vacuum could rotate forever, but in practice when there is friction and the energy is in fact consumed as  the example of the gyrobus it is not more than 6 km , 50 km/h  and 7.2 minutes
You seem not to understand that the flywheel takes 7 minutes to slow down because it is powering a bus and if it was not, then, as has been pointed out, it would carry on spinning for hours.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 15:22:21
In principle an object in vacuum could rotate forever, but in practice when there is friction and the energy is in fact consumed as  the example of the gyrobus it is not more than 6 km , 50 km/h  and 7.2 minutes
You seem not to understand that the flywheel takes 7 minutes to slow down because it is powering a bus and if it was not, then, as has been pointed out, it would carry on spinning for hours.
what is a flywheel? a massive wheel that store kinetic energy for short periods . if it is under ideal conditions it will last for long periods , but if it powers anything it will last very short periods.
In fact as an engineering fact even 7.2 minutes achieved only if it used for a vehicle . ask yourself why it is just a bus that is run by a flywheel ? why not a generator ? and ask yourself why it is just 7.2 minutes ? why not more ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/09/2018 15:30:53
but if it powers anything it will last very short periods.

That depends entirely upon how much power you draw from it. If you draw a total of one kilowatt of power from ten flywheels, they will spin down much more slowly than if you drew that much power from only a single flywheel.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 16:34:40
but if it powers anything it will last very short periods.

That depends entirely upon how much power you draw from it. If you draw a total of one kilowatt of power from ten flywheels, they will spin down much more slowly than if you drew that much power from only a single flywheel.
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed . Now let's say the flywheel of one meter radius rotates 3000 rpm although linear velocity varies from centre to edge let's assume the linear velocity of the flywheel at every point on it equals the maximum .i.e when radius=1 meter:
v=ωr=314*1=314 m/s
v=314 m/s
Also resistance force varies from centre to edge but let's take average force.i.e when radius=0.5 meter:
force=2 newton
Now let's say the flywheel is 3 tonnes let's calculate friction:
friction=normal force*coefficient
the Kinetic CE of steel with lubricant is about 0.13:
3000*9.8*0.13=3822 N     f=3822+2=3824 N
f=ma       a=f/m=3824/3000= 1.27 m/s/s
Now I have acceleration of  -1.27 m/s/s and initial velocity of 314 m/s let's see when it would stop:
t=314/1.27=247.2 seconds or 4 minutes.
The bad news is the more the flywheel is massive " or many flywheels" the more friction is if you take small amount of power and multiply the number of fly wheels you end up with much friction .
only 377 watts for 4 minutes, notice the amount of energy consumed by the generator not important the most important factor is the friction force:
friction force=3822 N
force from generator resistance= only 2 N
The thing which will slow it down is friction not the energy consumer " generator" as I said "anything"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 16:42:09
what is a flywheel? a massive wheel that store kinetic energy for short periods
Why have you repeated the mistake about "for short periods" when we have explained that they can cover long periods too?
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed .
No
You can choose the torque by varying either the number of poles, or the frequency of the current.

Also resistance force varies from centre to edge but let's take average force.i.e when radius=0.5 meter:
force=2 newton
What resistance force is this?
Is it some nonsense you have made up?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 17:02:40
what is a flywheel? a massive wheel that store kinetic energy for short periods
Why have you repeated the mistake about "for short periods" when we have explained that they can cover long periods too?
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed .
No
You can choose the torque by varying either the number of poles, or the frequency of the current.

Also resistance force varies from centre to edge but let's take average force.i.e when radius=0.5 meter:
force=2 newton
What resistance force is this?
Is it some nonsense you have made up?
What about friction force 3822 N and the intial velocity 314 m/s and time 4 minutes ? The more you increase the mass of the flywheel "or number of flywheels" the more friction force and the shorter time in a way that increasing the number of flywheels and reducing power is useless. small ones could run for hours"those are not useful" but larger ones "the useful ones" won't
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 17:41:23
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed .
No
You can choose the torque by varying either the number of poles, or the frequency of the current.
Usual frequency of generators worldwide is 60Hz
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 17:45:55
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage
You can find flywheels storing applications above .If you think they could store electricity for solar panels for hours go and propose that for wikipedia
In section grid scale storage you find:
"Beacon Power opened a 5 MWh (20 MW over 15 mins)" only 15 minutes
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 18:01:53
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed .
No
You can choose the torque by varying either the number of poles, or the frequency of the current.
Usual frequency of generators worldwide is 60Hz

So what?
(And it's not true where I live)
You are talking about flywheels, and they are only useful for energy storage when they change their rotational speed.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 18:04:14
"Beacon Power opened a 5 MWh (20 MW over 15 mins)" only 15 minutes
Do you really not understand that the same store could deliver (roughly) 5MW for an hour or 2.5MW for two hours?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 18:06:03
If you think they could store electricity for solar panels for hours go and propose that for wikipedia

I don't need to.
The page you cited already says
"Amber Kinetics, Inc. has an agreement with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) for a 20 MW / 80 MWh flywheel energy storage facility located in Fresno, CA with a four-hour discharge duration.[52]"
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 15/09/2018 18:25:43
If you think they could store electricity for solar panels for hours go and propose that for wikipedia

I don't need to.
The page you cited already says
"Amber Kinetics, Inc. has an agreement with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) for a 20 MW / 80 MWh flywheel energy storage facility located in Fresno, CA with a four-hour discharge duration.[52]"
The reference is #52 in wikipedia which is this:
It is 20 MW without mentioning any duration  it is likely to be a wikipedia mistake:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/170874/The_15_Biggest_Wikipedia_Blunders.html
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2018 19:06:32
it is likely to be a wikipedia mistake:
Not very.
"Key advantages of Amber Kinetics’ four-hour duration Kinetic Energy Storage System vs. chemical storage include unlimited cycling, zero degradation and a 30-year design life. "
from
http://amberkinetics.com/

Do you not understand that it would be better if you stopped being wrong about everything?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/09/2018 21:44:46
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed . Now let's say the flywheel of one meter radius rotates 3000 rpm although linear velocity varies from centre to edge let's assume the linear velocity of the flywheel at every point on it equals the maximum .i.e when radius=1 meter:
v=ωr=314*1=314 m/s
v=314 m/s
Also resistance force varies from centre to edge but let's take average force.i.e when radius=0.5 meter:
force=2 newton
Now let's say the flywheel is 3 tonnes let's calculate friction:
friction=normal force*coefficient
the Kinetic CE of steel with lubricant is about 0.13:
3000*9.8*0.13=3822 N     f=3822+2=3824 N
f=ma       a=f/m=3824/3000= 1.27 m/s/s
Now I have acceleration of  -1.27 m/s/s and initial velocity of 314 m/s let's see when it would stop:
t=314/1.27=247.2 seconds or 4 minutes.
The bad news is the more the flywheel is massive " or many flywheels" the more friction is if you take small amount of power and multiply the number of fly wheels you end up with much friction .
only 377 watts for 4 minutes, notice the amount of energy consumed by the generator not important the most important factor is the friction force:
friction force=3822 N
force from generator resistance= only 2 N
The thing which will slow it down is friction not the energy consumer " generator" as I said "anything"

Your calculations obviously do not apply to the flywheel mentioned in the link I provided, given that it utilized magnetic levitation instead of the lubricated steel your calculations posit. It could spin for 36 hours despite air friction being at work. Put it in a vacuum chamber and it will spin even longer, as I have stated before.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/09/2018 13:03:17
A generator of 377 watts has 1 N.m torque since P=torque*angular speed . Now let's say the flywheel of one meter radius rotates 3000 rpm although linear velocity varies from centre to edge let's assume the linear velocity of the flywheel at every point on it equals the maximum .i.e when radius=1 meter:
v=ωr=314*1=314 m/s
v=314 m/s
Also resistance force varies from centre to edge but let's take average force.i.e when radius=0.5 meter:
force=2 newton
Now let's say the flywheel is 3 tonnes let's calculate friction:
friction=normal force*coefficient
the Kinetic CE of steel with lubricant is about 0.13:
3000*9.8*0.13=3822 N     f=3822+2=3824 N
f=ma       a=f/m=3824/3000= 1.27 m/s/s
Now I have acceleration of  -1.27 m/s/s and initial velocity of 314 m/s let's see when it would stop:
t=314/1.27=247.2 seconds or 4 minutes.
The bad news is the more the flywheel is massive " or many flywheels" the more friction is if you take small amount of power and multiply the number of fly wheels you end up with much friction .
only 377 watts for 4 minutes, notice the amount of energy consumed by the generator not important the most important factor is the friction force:
friction force=3822 N
force from generator resistance= only 2 N
The thing which will slow it down is friction not the energy consumer " generator" as I said "anything"

Your calculations obviously do not apply to the flywheel mentioned in the link I provided, given that it utilized magnetic levitation instead of the lubricated steel your calculations posit. It could spin for 36 hours despite air friction being at work. Put it in a vacuum chamber and it will spin even longer, as I have stated before.
they discharge in 4 hours but if we intend to actually depend on solar panels at least 12 hour energy storage is needed
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2018 13:14:04
they discharge in 4 hours
No
It's 36 hours- as demonstrated by reality.
And- you seem not to grasp this- you can use more than 1.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/09/2018 13:26:20
they discharge in 4 hours
No
It's 36 hours- as demonstrated by reality.
And- you seem not to grasp this- you can use more than 1.
If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
2) why not they replace chemical battery ?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2018 13:31:01
2) why not they replace chemical battery ?
They do.
That's why I was able to link to information about flywheels being used.
However they are heavy, so in many places a battery makes more sense.

If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
Could you rewrite it?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/09/2018 13:37:37

If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
Could you rewrite it?
why we can't depend on solar panels in power stations using those flywheels?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2018 13:49:59

If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
Could you rewrite it?
why we can't depend on solar panels in power stations using those flywheels?
At the moment it is cheaper to use fossil fuel.
Flywheels are simple, but, to be any use, they need to be big and heavy.
Also, as they store and release energy the rotational speed changes.
That makes it a bit more complicated to connect power from them to the grid.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 21/09/2018 13:58:45

If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
Could you rewrite it?
why we can't depend on solar panels in power stations using those flywheels?
At the moment it is cheaper to use fossil fuel.
Flywheels are simple, but, to be any use, they need to be big and heavy.
Also, as they store and release energy the rotational speed changes.
That makes it a bit more complicated to connect power from them to the grid.

Then we can't depend on solar panels by using them.However I claim we could depend on solar panels by using my clockwork In my other thread I mentioned using water depth in oceans instead of digging deep wells making it very cheap.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2018 14:28:55
Then we can't depend on solar panels by using them.
And we can't depend on solar panels using your springs + cogs idea for the same reason.
So, why not stop wasting time on it?
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/09/2018 14:29:36
However I claim we could depend on solar panels by using my clockwork
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: roshkhanna on 25/09/2018 06:47:43
Great Information sharing i am very happy to read this forum. Thanks for giving us go through info. I appreciate your work.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 25/09/2018 07:59:52

If they are cheap and efficient there should be disadvantages why they are not able replace fossil fuel and make dependence on solar panel?
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
Could you rewrite it?
why we can't depend on solar panels in power stations using those flywheels?
At the moment it is cheaper to use fossil fuel.
Flywheels are simple, but, to be any use, they need to be big and heavy.
Also, as they store and release energy the rotational speed changes.
That makes it a bit more complicated to connect power from them to the grid.

My clockwork doesn't have all these flaws.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 25/09/2018 08:40:55
http://news.mit.edu/2009/super-springs-0921
If these springs are the future then there is not other way to store energy in these springs but my clockwork .
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Colin2B on 25/09/2018 08:44:01
Great Information sharing i am very happy to read this forum. Thanks for giving us go through info. I appreciate your work.
And thank you for attempting to spam us with your ecommerce site.
Oh, and by the way, you are banned.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/09/2018 19:32:04
My clockwork doesn't have all these flaws.
It has flaws that are listed elsewhere in the thread.

If these springs are the future then there is not other way to store energy in these springs but my clockwork .

Nonsense.
The article says they plan to use the springs to store energy. But they can't  be planning to use your clockwrk- or they would have mentioned it.

In fact, any use of any spring is- in some way- to store  energy.
So, any way in which a spring is used is an "other way to store energy in these springs but my clockwork ".
The springs in the chair I am sitting on store energy- but they are not using your energy  wasting system.
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Yahya on 26/09/2018 07:53:21
If these springs are the future then there is not other way to store energy in these springs but my clockwork .

Nonsense.

really? show me how to store energy in a spring to be released in longer periods without using a clockwork?
you just claim knowledge in engineering but you don't have a tiny piece:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=73150.250
Title: Re: What application could this clockwork be used for?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/09/2018 19:18:54
show me how to store energy in a spring to be released in longer periods without using a clockwork?
OK, the springs which form the suspension of a car or lorry do exactly that, they take the sudden impact from bumps in the road and release it more slowly giving a smoother ride.

Did you think it was going to be hard to find an example?

If you knew anything about springs, physics or engineering you would have realised that springs are used to do just what you said.