Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: LB7 on 24/10/2018 21:35:35

Title: Electric analogy
Post by: LB7 on 24/10/2018 21:35:35
I take in reference the mechanical device : https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=74864.60

I explained and proved the sum of energy is not constant. The main problem is the energy recovered compared to the potential kinetics energy inside the device, I can create something like 1% of the potential energy, but the potential energy is a mass in rotation and the problem comes from the losses: friction from air and rolling-element bearing. Even the device create the energy the goal is to recover a mechanical energy or at least a heating without give any energy (the potential energy is gave at start and it can be recovered at final).

I drew the small circular rings with an angle of 30° relatively to the horizontal but the angle like I show in the thread about the mechanical device can be any others angles. The angle change the efficiency.

So, I do the electric analog device. It is the first time I do that, so maybe my model is not perfect. But I think it is easy to verify with a simulator or in reality. I took the impedance analogy but it is possible to take the admittance.

The device is like that:

d9s6q.png (95.9 kB . 1207x566 - viewed 3847 times)

df6s5.png (54.39 kB . 716x405 - viewed 3815 times)

I drew the arrow to show the direction of the current in a half period, the direction is opposite in the second period.

I imagined the device alimented with sinus tension but it is possible to use any type of signal : square, triangular, or even pulse, etc. Maybe it is better to increase the current when the diameter of the ring is bigger.

To give the force to the small ring, I can use a voltage transformer that I add in each small wire (serial). Like that it is the equivalent of the force I give in mechanical device.

I have very small losses from the electric copper or I can use supraconductor materials. And nothing needs to turn like the mechanical device. The frequency could be very high, so the power density (or power mass) could be very high.

se99d.png (38.73 kB . 940x572 - viewed 3823 times)

ze9s5.png (57.91 kB . 468x404 - viewed 3786 times)

The device is like :

s9e6d.png (116.03 kB . 1184x572 - viewed 3739 times)

I use an electronic device to recover the extra energy, I don't want the sources give an energy to the electronic device directly, it is only the energy created. I drew only one ring to recover the flux but it is possible to have several blue rings.

I didn't drew irons nor ferrite cores but it is possible to add them to increase the inductance of the device, in the center:

sz95s.png (118.96 kB . 1168x572 - viewed 3706 times)

And maybe between the copper wires too, to increase the inductance.

If I don't recover the extra energy in my mechanical device and if there is no friction, the angular velocity of the device increases more and more until infinite (unless the device is a the basic particle it will break itself before). Here, it is the same, the flux will increase more and more and the copper will fuse. So, it is necessary to recover and use the extra energy. The device is unstable.

I drew circles for the copper in the side view, but it is possible to have any shape: rectangles, etc. I drew only one small ring but it is possible to have more.

Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 25/10/2018 07:00:49
The image shows the device that gives the equivalent forces in mechanical device:

d98s6.png (200.62 kB . 1025x774 - viewed 3629 times)

dee23.png (36.32 kB . 977x432 - viewed 3355 times)

The violet ring (A) is alimented in tension with a generator alternative for example. I drew arrow to show the direction of the current in a half period.

I updated the device:

s96d.png (182.65 kB . 1505x761 - viewed 3353 times)

I drew a wire of copper (or any conductor) but it is possible to have 100 rounds for one ring.

It is possible to use more than one violet ring to increase the efficiency. For example, one like I drew, the others separate by 90° on the side view.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 25/10/2018 18:11:15
Maybe I can do that:

s958d.png (192.01 kB . 1519x804 - viewed 3316 times)

The secondary generator is ON at start, and I change the phase angle and the voltage during the time. I think the secondary generator recovers an energy at start, and need to recovers more and more energy with time. I recover energy too from the electronic device, but just enough to keep constant the electric field from the generator 1.

I will test this device.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: RD on 26/10/2018 01:43:24
The image shows the device that gives the equivalent forces in mechanical device:

d98s6.png (200.62 kB . 1025x774 - viewed 3629 times)

That looks like a transformer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer#Energy_losses), which can increase a voltage but cannot increase (create) energy.
It is impossible to create energy.   (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics)

I drew a wire of copper (or any conductor) but it is possible to have 100 rounds for one ring.

Copper has electrical resistance, so you will lose energy via heat.
Also heating via magnetostriction ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction
Also loss of energy from your system via RF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference).
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 26/10/2018 04:59:16
That looks like a transformer, which can increase a voltage but cannot increase (create) energy.
It is impossible to create energy.

Yes, it is a transformer. And the goal is to increase the current like the mechanical device does and increases the angular velocity. The design is more:

ed6d3.png (106.24 kB . 460x456 - viewed 3357 times)

Like that I have the analogy. So, the secondary generator recovers an energy I think.

It is not a device like that, it is based on my mechanical device. Maybe the analogy is not perfect but my mechanical device creates the energy. It is easy to verify with maths the mechanical device but calculate the electromagnetic device is not easy. In the contrary, it is easy to build in reality the electromagnetic device but it is difficult to built a real mechanical device to test, maybe in a lab. I done the calculations for the mechanical device and now I will build the electromagnetic device.

Copper has electrical resistance, so you will lose energy via heat. Also heating via magnetostriction ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction
Also loss of energy from your system via RF.
Sure, it is very complex to calculate like that. There are losses and I don't know the pourcentage of the energy I can create. I will try to simulate it today but if someone want to help, he's welcome. I hope the electromagnetic device is more efficient than the mechanical because it is lightweigth and it is possible to work at a big frequency.

I think the electronic device is not necessary in the test because the power will increases more and more and the copper will fuse even the power of the generators is not enough to fuse the copper. The core (iron or ferrite) will create high frequencies so more losses, so I think it is better to test without any core. And the signal is better in sinus, the measures will be better at low frequency like maybe 50 Hz, and the RF losses difficult to calculate or estimate will e lower. Maybe the phase angle of the second generator is necessary, I'm not sure.

The following image shows the 3d model:

sx6.png (41.56 kB . 792x669 - viewed 3315 times)

I think I need to take the energy for the secondary coil from the primary coil:

fr32e3.png (188.58 kB . 1325x778 - viewed 3268 times)

The upload disk is full so I post here my device:

https://postimg.cc/qz0QLn3k

Like that the device is well the mechanical device at least for the moment of inertia. Without C2 the device has an inductance L1+L2 and it is the inertia of the bolt around the fixed axis more the inertia of the bolt around itself. If I active C2, then the inertia is L1 and I need no energy for C2, and it is like only the rotation of the bolt around the fixed axis, the rotation of the bolt around itself is L2 and L2=0 because the currents are in the contrary directions.

Like that it is better:

https://postimg.cc/G4mWX6yh

And another :

https://postimg.cc/dDfSjD93

The design for one turn of each coil:

https://postimg.cc/VrDF7s0K

With 2 real wires:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/16m5tl5hg/
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 28/10/2018 12:28:50
I think the solution is easier like that:

https://postimg.cc/2VdGKfLR

G1 gives less energy with C1 like I drew compared to full turns of the red copper. G2 gives an energy to C2. C2 gives an energy to C1.

I didn't draw the device to recover the energy (a coil below C1).

Like that the initial condition of the mechanics is realized:

f9d6.png (78.61 kB . 1216x869 - viewed 3055 times)

The current of C1 turns clockwise but the red triangle gives a counterclockwise rotation of the red current. So it is like the rotation of the mass around A1 and  the bolt that don't turning around itself is C2: cancel the flux by himself.

Note: I took 2 examples for the angles, maybe it is not the best angles. And maybe C2 must be like C1 but the current reversed:

d6s5.png (90.34 kB . 1253x855 - viewed 2982 times)

I drew only one wire for the "triangles" red and violet but it is possible to have severals triangles distant from each others.

I don't know if the red copper in the plance (x,y) must be under the violet or the red triangle. Maybe the work from the violet triangle is better.

The generator G1 gives the power in parallel to each red round (C1) but it is possible to build a spiral and set the wire in serial, again I don't know what is the best maybe it depend of the position of the violet triangle above C1.

I think I need to replace G2 by a resistor, like that the energy is created not destroyed:

s8d5.png (90.27 kB . 1284x863 - viewed 2983 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 29/10/2018 10:47:40
I corrected the direction of the current. One device create the energy the other destroy it.

d9ss5.png (92.47 kB . 1226x857 - viewed 3024 times)

d6s33f.png (91.9 kB . 1253x862 - viewed 2977 times)

I drew one wire (red line or violet line) but it is a coil, it is several wires inside each line, like that the value are greater.

The best could be to add a magnetic core composed of amorphous metal.

d5t8.png (63.37 kB . 804x452 - viewed 2941 times)

And I think I need to take the power from C1 only during the first half period because the coil C1 increases its power like the bolt could increases its velocity around A1 (mechanical device).

d9e6s3.png (115.54 kB . 1288x870 - viewed 2927 times)

I think I need to cut the circuit of C2 (only the half period must give power to R), because imagine I use a push spring in the mechanical device and I accelerate and decelerate the bolt around A1 like the sinusoide does inside C1, in that case at the end of the acceleration+deceleration the length of the spring is at the same length than at start, and I lost and I recover the same energy from the torque around A1. So, the device can create and destroy the energy it depend when I take the power from C2.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 29/10/2018 19:32:21
I have some problems due to the inductance stored inside C2. In the mechanics device I didn't study a continuous device, just a device to prove the energy is not conserved. But here, if I want to measure, I need a continuous power because the energy is small and if it is in a transcient study the results will be not enough appropriate because the transcient analyse will create the harmonics and the rmultimeters or oscolloscope have a limited widthband.

So, I need a continuous measurement without transcient if possible. For that, I need to change the type of attraction in my mechanical device or change the spring... but here the inductance is there at final of one half period. I need to change the force on the support around A1, so here I need to change the direction of the flux because reverse the rotation in mechanical is change the voltage. For that, I need to change the direction of the current. And for that, I need a motor that can rotate C2, parrallel to the axis X. It is not very fast but maybe I can rotate the motor with a continuous angular velocity, the efficiency is lower but I can rotates very fast. I will find a static solution.

d6s5z.png (94.17 kB . 1315x868 - viewed 2841 times)

And I found:

d8f5e.png (59.6 kB . 1051x614 - viewed 2823 times)

With interuptors:

gf8r5.png (71.82 kB . 1062x666 - viewed 2854 times)

And I can have a triangular shape:

s8d5z.png (57.85 kB . 945x479 - viewed 2861 times)

I think I need to move the flux outside C1, if I use C2 without a core I think the sum of the flux is 0 from it. So I use a core to move outside C1 the flux. Like that, inside C1 I have what I want from C2:

d9r6f.png (94.54 kB . 1359x873 - viewed 2837 times)

And I can recover the energy from C2 from another coil in the core 1 (I don't need 2 cores I think):

d8fr9.png (94.65 kB . 1314x877 - viewed 2841 times)

The core 1 don't pass around C1. Like that I can recover the energy from C2 without C1. I can open C1 and recover then energy with another coil like a standard transformer.

Like that:

gf89d.png (118.86 kB . 1347x873 - viewed 2831 times)

No, the best is to open C2 and recover the energy from C1. More difficult to do in practice, need electronic. And I need cores ! Like I drew at start, it is not good for harmonics but I need to add a flux from C2 to C1 !

s9s6.png (188.53 kB . 1129x621 - viewed 2801 times)

Open C1 and give the energy to the core is like brake the bolt on the disk. I think the cores are needed to give the path of the flux like I want. But the device need an electronic circuit.

g9d5.png (112.4 kB . 1255x862 - viewed 2767 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 29/10/2018 23:02:45
With a core like that:

[ Invalid Attachment ]

The flux is in the direction I want from C2. I think I can't place the core in the center of C1.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 30/10/2018 10:28:27
In fact there are a lot of solution to convert the principle of the mechanics motor to the electrics transformer. Maybe this one is better:

g6fd.png (202.22 kB . 1496x708 - viewed 2718 times)

Analogy mechanics <=> electric

1/ The generator 1 is the motor that allows to have the bolt in rotation around A1. The advantage of the electric is the inertia is reactive power, it cost near nothing so the losses must be low. Another advantage is the possibility to use the alternative power, it is like I rotate in one direction the disk around A1 and just after in another direction, in the mechanical device if I do that, even the energy is created, I can't see it because the losses will be very high.

2/ Inertia of the angular velocity of the disk around A1 without the bolt around itself <=> inductance of C1, note it is easier here to have a bigger inertia of the bolt around itself compared around A1. The bigger radius of C1 is the rotation around A1 and the smaller radius of C1 is the rotation of the bolt around itself. Like I drew it is not necessary to have a plate coil. It is better like that. Look at the direction of the current in C1 (I drew only the current in C1) because a part of the current turns clockwise the other part, in the small radius, rotates counterclockwise.

3/ The inertia of the bolt around itself is C3, maybe it is not perfect like I drew, I'm not sure.

4/ The generator 2 is the spring I used in the mechanical device. The spring gives a force to the bolt to rotate around itself not to rotate around A1 (the othen end of the spring is discuste in 5/), here it is the same I give only the tension to C3.

5/ In the mechanics, the spring has its reference to the rotation around A1, here I do the same, the generator 2 is in serial with C2 and C2 has the same shape than C1 I mean when I rotate the bolt around A1 I don't rotate it around itself, so here it is the same.

6/ To recover the energy in the mechanics device I recover a torque and a rotation, here it is the current and the voltage from C5.

7/ The angle I have for the bolt is represented by the angle relatively to the horizontal I have for the small radius of C1.

I updated the device:

e9d6.png (203.69 kB . 1536x865 - viewed 2702 times)

C1 with the iron2:

ed6s6q.png (296.28 kB . 686x478 - viewed 3107 times)

Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 30/10/2018 15:00:41
With that design, the area is better:

r8f5d.png (220.98 kB . 1538x884 - viewed 2674 times)

At least, it allow to understand where I want to go. I don't need C3. I can directly put the flux like I drew. The only problem is to minimize the flux from C1 to the core2 and I can take a lower reluctance.

μr for the iron 1 = 2000
μr for the iron 2 = 200

If the flux from C1 increases the inducance of C1 because I added the core2, this will ways the bolt rotates at start in the mechanical device. To create the energy I need to have the angular velocity of the bolt lower than the angular velocity around A1. Even a small difference is enough but for increase the power-mass and the volume-mass it is better to have a big difference.

The coil C1 alone:

dr8f5.png (36.58 kB . 1052x462 - viewed 2637 times)

C4 and C5 are standard (circle shape)

The cores alone:

d98e5d.png (31.09 kB . 1234x597 - viewed 2634 times)

To test with a core more easy to build (less efficiency):

d8s5d.png (63.63 kB . 1115x539 - viewed 2592 times)

II drew 2 circles for C1 in the top view, the bigger circle with a radius R1 is well the circle but the smaller with the radius R2 is an ellipse. So if I want a circle for the smaller radius R2, the image is more:

f8r5.png (36.02 kB . 1001x417 - viewed 2590 times)

Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 01/11/2018 07:59:08
Maybe I can have that geometry:

d8c5.png (140.43 kB . 1056x724 - viewed 2526 times)

If I don't need C2 the cost is lower.

Maybe I need to have another coil in the core2 to put voltage (force in mechanical device) in the part of C1:

d8e5d.png (139.29 kB . 1070x755 - viewed 2536 times)

Or I need to have a different slope for C2 :

d85f.png (79.65 kB . 1380x731 - viewed 2526 times)

I need to move in translation in mechanics, so I need to move here, and the analogy seems to be the charge:

dz9d58.png (135.24 kB . 1386x845 - viewed 2515 times)

Or like that:

d9s5d.png (148.66 kB . 1355x863 - viewed 2480 times)

The device like that is easier:

ed95d.png (78.5 kB . 1181x695 - viewed 2452 times)

The diplacement is the charge, the spring is G2 so I think I need to place the capacitor in serie with C6:

des9d6.png (58.23 kB . 1215x610 - viewed 2453 times)

But maybe there is a phase angle between G1 and G2.

f5d6.png (118.2 kB . 1192x728 - viewed 2424 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 01/11/2018 16:29:49
Maybe the capacitor is between C1 and C6 because the displacement in the mechanical device is between the rotation around A1 and the bolt around itself:

d98fe.png (103.32 kB . 1051x671 - viewed 2376 times)

In the mechanical device there is no movement relatively to the axis A1, only relatively to the bolt, so maybe the capacitor is inside only in relation with the coil 6, one end attached to C6, the other end too:

d8es65.png (102.69 kB . 1041x695 - viewed 2346 times)

I'm not sure I can replace the capacitor by a phase angle transformer, I use 2 devices. Instead to use a capacitor, I can use an inductor. Because the reason to exist of the capacitor is to create a phase angle I think, and it is possible to do the same with 2 identical devices (in opposition), I'm not sure I can create an opposition with the coil C1 because it is used. So the device could be:

f5gt8.png (65.1 kB . 809x758 - viewed 2374 times)

The schema is:

dc6d.png (36.24 kB . 415x426 - viewed 2318 times)

It is easier to build inductor than capacitor especially in high power.

I'm not sure of the angle of the green coil... in the mechanical device I have a different angle for between the perpendicular of A1 and the force of the spring and I have also a difference between the force of the spring and the axis of the bolt (axis around itself). And I didn't find the best couple of angles, so I think there are several solutions. Liek that device, electric device, I think there are several solutions, it is possible to work with capacitances not coil, it is better for small embedded devices, like maybe a watch.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 02/11/2018 06:56:06
I think I can place the coils in the same plane. The capacitors must realized the function "angle' I used in the mechanics:

f5fd6.png (111.2 kB . 1118x598 - viewed 2303 times)

Maybe I need to use coil of Frager:

d9qz5d.png (128.51 kB . 1204x613 - viewed 2313 times)

d9e6d.png (134.98 kB . 1223x698 - viewed 2278 times)

Maybe the flux must be dephased from the green relatively to the red with spires of Frager:

DE95F.png (159.59 kB . 1238x799 - viewed 2276 times)

dzz9.png (161.17 kB . 1242x815 - viewed 2261 times)

Maybe I don't need the capacitors:

de95de.png (191.44 kB . 1318x826 - viewed 2249 times)

With notations:

[ Invalid Attachment ]

dzz9.png (161.17 kB . 1242x815 - viewed 2261 times)

I corrected some details:

de95de.png (191.44 kB . 1318x826 - viewed 2249 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 02/11/2018 16:51:27
I corrected the sign of current, but I don't think I need to have a phase angle between G1 and G2 and it is not necessary to have a variation of the voltage of G1 and G2. I have only a doubt about the displacement of the spring. I think I need to have like the mechanical device an helix, but what is the equivalent of the helix in electric ? I think the device need to change the inductance or the capacitor, but if it is a capacitor, it must change its capacity ! but it is more complicated to change the capacitor than the inductance. Or maybe with a piezoelectric device: 2 conductors separated by a isolant piezo material and change the thickness. Whay not. I don't know if these sort of capacitor exist or not. The value must change very few if the frequency is high, but if the power is high, the changement of the inductance or the capacitance must be higher. Electronic can easily with no mechanical movement change the frequency.

Or with only a modulation of the voltage on G1:

Or the frequency, because changes the kinetics energy is change the velocity in rotation, and it is change the inductance, and change easily the inductance is easy with the frequency:

With a variable frequency on G1 not G2:

I can use a varicap ! like that it is easy to change the capacitance. I need to find where to place it. Like the generator 2 and the greometry of the iron is the spring, and like the spring moves, I need to find where to place it:

[ Invalid Attachment ]

With the voltage of control Uc:

t89h9d.png (187.8 kB . 1363x833 - viewed 2213 times)

Several solution to change the inductance:

de98fe.png (191.81 kB . 1342x821 - viewed 2213 times)

I need to modify, I forgot the return of the flux from C1...:

tg5g9d.png (217.7 kB . 1365x768 - viewed 2166 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 03/11/2018 10:44:00
I think I drew the solution with the loop created by the parts of C1 with a radius R2 and R3. It is a loop exactly like a spire of Frager, and the flux must be dephased. I need just to control the current in the loop, it is easier than variable frequency or a limited varicap:

fr95f.png (228.08 kB . 1366x788 - viewed 2167 times)

The current can be limited by an electronic circuit or even by a variable transformer.

Maybe with a ballast:

f9e6d.png (231.03 kB . 1353x804 - viewed 2145 times)

Even a controlled electronics ballast can limit the current inside the frager spire. The Frager spire is the part of C1 with the surface A2.

I drew the true section of the irons:

cd9s.png (36.7 kB . 576x374 - viewed 2102 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 04/11/2018 19:21:47
I simulate the device, it is not like the reality but it is a start. I can have a negative energy without count the energy inside the coils. I use one of the methods I explained before. It could be better to have the equations from the mechanical device and build the electrical analogy. I will try.

Here, I just need something to store the energy in the transcient, and repeat again and again the cycle. It is like I have only one shot of the mechanical device.

gf9f.png (6.5 kB . 823x534 - viewed 2074 times)

With another values and at start:

r8fs.png (7.07 kB . 649x444 - viewed 2071 times)

But maybe my circuit is not good:

de95ds.png (42.1 kB . 441x693 - viewed 2082 times)

I tried a lot of values to optimize the device but it miss something just to integrate the work from start. Even V2=0V the sum of energy is negative at start. I hope the couplage of the inductance is correct.

With different value I can have that:

fr98.png (17.46 kB . 1723x849 - viewed 2072 times)

V1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0)
V11 20 1 SIN(0 200V 210 0 5)
V2 0 11 SIN(0 0V 100 0 0)

V5 12 8 SIN(0 0.00001V 100)

R1 1 2 0.0001
R2 3 4 0.0001
R3 3 5 0.0001
R4 7 8 0.0001

R7 7 11 0.0001

L1 3 2 10mH
L2 0 4 5mH
L3 0 5 100mH
L4 0 12 2mH

I added a voltage square in serial with V1 and the result are bigger with a non 0 at final:

cc95c.png (20.28 kB . 1778x965 - viewed 2072 times)

zoom in:

fd8s9.png (3.35 kB . 451x395 - viewed 2054 times)

And with a small voltage square, I don't need to give an energy:

eds98.png (19.85 kB . 1800x989 - viewed 2051 times)

With:

Code: [Select]
`V1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0) V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 5) V2 0 11 SIN(0 0V 100 0 0) Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -1 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.01V5 12 8 SIN(0 0.00001V 100)R1 1 2 0.0001R2 3 4 0.0001R3 3 5 0.0001R4 7 8 0.0001R7 7 11 0.0001L1 3 2 10mHL2 0 4 5mHL3 0 5 100mHL4 0 12 2mHK12 L1 L2 -1K13 L1 L3 -0.8K14 L1 L4 0.4K42 L4 L2 0.6K43 L4 L3 0K23 L2 L3 0.8`
The power is:

ser6.png (24.11 kB . 1786x963 - viewed 2047 times)

In fact, if I set all K=0 and decrease a lot L3 and L4, I test two cases Rx=0.0001 ohm and Rx=0.01, in the first case the sum of energy is negative a lot (kUnits) and in the second case the energy is positive:

Rx=0.0001:

Code: [Select]
`*** transformer ****Fit-Range: 0-30V* transfomerV1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0) V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 5) V2 0 11 SIN(0 0V 100 0 0) Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -1 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.01*V5 12 8 SIN(0 0.00001V 100)R1 1 2 0.0001R2 3 4 0.0001R7 7 11 0.0001L1 3 2 10mHL2 0 4 5mHK12 L1 L2 0.tran 10us 2.5s.controlsave all @r1.r2.r7[p]save all @v1.v11.v2.v3.vk[p]save all @v1.v11.v2.v3.vk[i]runplot avg(v(1)*i(v1)).endc.end`

de843.png (2.52 kB . 295x297 - viewed 2014 times)

Rx=0.01:

sd654.png (2.65 kB . 290x301 - viewed 2010 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 04/11/2018 22:44:37

Code: [Select]
`*** transformer ****Fit-Range: 0-30V* transfomerV1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0) V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 5) V2 0 11 SIN(0 0V 100 0 0) Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -1 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.01*V5 12 8 SIN(0 0.00001V 100)R1 1 2 0.01R2 3 4 0.01R7 7 11 0.01L1 3 2 10mHL2 0 4 5mHK12 L1 L2 0.tran 10us 2.5s.controlsave all @r1.r2.r7[p]save all @v1.v11.v2.v3.vk[p]save all @v1.v11.v2.v3.vk[i]runplot avg(v(1)*i(v1)).endc.end`
[ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/11/2018 07:32:57
So, nothing to do with my transformer but it is interesting. I mean, there no core and only one coil. But I think I replaced the severals coils by severals voltage sources and it is better to test with simulator. I think it is th principle I have in the mechanical device but apply to the electric model with sources of voltage.

So the device is only 3 sources of voltage in serial:

20 Volts sinus at 100 Hz : V1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0)
20 Volts sinus at 1 Hz dephased of 5° : V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 5)
Square signal -1V/0V, at 5Hz :  Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -1 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.2

In serial with a resistance of 0.02 Ω or 0.0002 Ω

In serial with an inductance of 15 mH

Code: [Select]
`*** transformer ***V1 0 20 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0) V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 5) Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -1 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.2* R1 = 0.02 => power destroyed* R1 = 0.0002 => power createdR1 1 2 0.0002L1 0 2 15mH.tran 1us 200s.controlsave all @r1[p]save all @v1.v11.vk[p]save all @v1.v11.vk[i]runplot avg(v(1)*i(v1))plot i(v1).end`
r=0.0002

d87s.png (2.48 kB . 288x283 - viewed 2036 times)

r=0.02

s9d5.png (2.57 kB . 291x296 - viewed 2025 times)

If I divide by 10 the step, I have always the same. I can understand the energy from the generators is positive because the coi have an energy inside. But the contrary... It is based on Spice3, maybe there is a bug ?

With r=0.0002 the current is :

defz5.png (2.69 kB . 282x292 - viewed 2017 times)

de97.png (26.62 kB . 1785x976 - viewed 2025 times)

It is a lot, the real generator could have a big problem to generate it but why spice is wrong ?
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/11/2018 09:24:22
And at final the energy return at 0 but slowly:

y9r8.png (18.23 kB . 1802x977 - viewed 1987 times)

r98t.png (14.91 kB . 1797x983 - viewed 1978 times)

gt6e.png (15.71 kB . 1802x969 - viewed 1991 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/11/2018 09:55:32
If I use only a resistance, the power from the voltages sources is positive, it is logical. Here the power is negative with RL and when I divide by 10 or 100 the step, it changes nothing.

I will try to have a device with only the transcient power. It is possible to set ON/OFF each second but it could better to have a continuous device.

The circuit:

d95e3.png (53.56 kB . 679x672 - viewed 1597 times)

With the values:

V1 0 20 SIN(0 2V 100 0 120)
V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 1 0 3)
Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -0.8 0.1 0 0.1) +r=0 td=0.2

R1 1 2 0.0002
L1 0 2 15mH

The device is more stable in the transcient.

defe.png (6.86 kB . 595x484 - viewed 1568 times)

And if I replace with a slower square:

V1 0 20 SIN(0 2V 100 0 20)
V11 21 1 SIN(0 20V 2 0 3)
*Vk 20 21 PWL(0 -0.8V 0.1 0V 0.1) +r=0 td=0.2
vin 20 21 pulse (-1 0 0ns 500ns 500ns 0.2s 1s)

the power is better at start:

epz3.png (23.54 kB . 1807x990 - viewed 1585 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/11/2018 22:02:30
I think I study the bad case. In the spice simulation I have one test with positive energy and another case with a negative energy. But it is the case where R=0.02 Ohms where the energy is created. I will test with others simulators.

tg54.png (2.56 kB . 291x298 - viewed 1489 times)

The energy is low but it is something.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 06/11/2018 09:01:57
Ahah, I made a mistake... I took the damping factor in V1 in SPICE not the phase angle... but the result is there ! If R is small the energy is created, even the current in the coil passed from 5000 A at start to 4850 A at 0.2 s around, the energy in the sources increases of 45 kW.

fr5.png (10.35 kB . 773x331 - viewed 1531 times)

gll'4.png (6.51 kB . 615x308 - viewed 1515 times)

The sum of the 3 voltages in serial gives:

frpok5.png (25.7 kB . 1795x990 - viewed 1489 times)

If I remove the pulse voltage, it doesn't work. But it works without the 20V sinus. I have the sum of the voltage:

rfpr.png (22.01 kB . 1794x986 - viewed 1487 times)

the current is:

frpsok5.png (23.35 kB . 1800x991 - viewed 1492 times)

and the power is:

frpz.png (32.18 kB . 1807x982 - viewed 1497 times)

To resume, without the sinus damping it doesn't work, without L is doesn't work, without the 20V sinus it works but the power oscillate. The inductance lost few energy some 300 J but the power oscillate at start near 10 kW

I think it is well like my mechanical device. At start, there is an inductance with a current. Like the kinetics energy of rotation of my bolt around A1. At time=0s, I add a voltage source, the extra current has no inductance, because the curernt takes time to be stabilize insde the circuit due to the inductance. When the current is establishing inside the circuit, I use the support of the inductance. Even, it is not what I would like to build, it is another case with only one inductance.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 06/11/2018 11:05:40
But without the damping it works. The principle is easy, I discharge an inductance into a circuit that I know the voltage source is not powerful enough to annoyed the current from the inductance. It is exactly like my mechanical device. The current (positive) comes from the inductance. The voltage source is like my spring I use in my mechancal device. The inductance and the current at start it the potential kinetics energy of the bolt around A1. After, I apply the spring: the voltage source or anything else like a capacitance. The energy can be recovered directly by the voltages sources. It must be possible to recover only a part of the energy created and give it to the inducatance, like that the device could be continuous. So maybe work in two periods, the first to recover the extra energy and second to give a part of the energy recovered to the inductance, to increase its current so its potential energy. Don't forget there are 125kW inside the resistor with a current of 25000 A, I didn't count it before but it is not a so small energy. But it seems it works only with the 3 voltages in serial, so it must realized the equivalent of the angles in mechanics.

If I don't use the damping function I have something like that for the power:

frpl.png (25.56 kB . 1786x992 - viewed 1458 times)

It depends how the device is used.

The damping function must act like the angles for the spring in the mechanical device. The exponential function changes the slope of the signal.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 06/11/2018 19:10:23
The circuit:

fe84f.png (41.33 kB . 548x485 - viewed 1431 times)

The inductance must be charged before start ! it is like the rotation of the bolt around A1.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: guest46746 on 06/11/2018 20:17:52
I have only read your 1st post and scanned the next two. Are you saying that an aberration in the current provides an added tension via dimensional elevation above the source current?  Very Ein Sof! lol

Do the six elevated rings create a delayed current that produces a push/pull effect?

Why 12 rings?  lol
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: guest46746 on 06/11/2018 20:28:50
Pardon for the inquiry, but have you played with inductance, via coil spacing on the elevated ring? lol
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 06/11/2018 20:32:57
First, look at my mechanical device and maybe you can understand what I want to do with the electrical device. The mechanical device has a sum of energy not at 0, it is easy to verify, a bolt in rotation around A1 but not in rotation around itself (longitudinal axis) at start, a spring, that's all. I take a bolt because I used the helix to show how I apply the force. I tried to imagine a transformer (to build) to have the same effect, it is better to test with a simulator like ngspice than a 3d simulator. After, I thought it could be done with only the electric voltage sources and I tried a lot of values. I didn't say it is the optimum. Hey, at least try, I gave the circuit and the file.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: guest46746 on 06/11/2018 20:40:03
Hey, at least try, I gave the circuit and the file.

kudos! lol
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 06/11/2018 20:43:17
Oh, I just look at all your messages ! "lol" at each phrase..., I see a happy troll...you never build a raisonnement, nor help
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: guest46746 on 06/11/2018 20:52:21
you never build phrases, nor help

true intellectuals don't want or appreciate ...help! kudos none the less! lol
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 07/11/2018 06:22:14
About the slopes, I drew an example with sin(x) and 0.5*sin(x):

[ Invalid Attachment ]

The exponential function (damping in Ngspice) decreases more and more the factor of the sin(x) and the slope changes, it is what I need in my mechanical device apply here in the electric.

The energy in the coil, is a real energy, I need to give before start like the mechanical device.

If the device is not continuous it is because the damping function reduces the input. But I will have the all circuit.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 07/11/2018 19:57:26
With a RL circuit:

fr95s.png (23.63 kB . 920x647 - viewed 1336 times)

Instead of a transformer or voltages series I can use a LC circuit in serie, in resonance. The circulation of the current is like the rotation of the bolt around A1. I add a source of voltage between the inductance and the capacitor. The source of voltage is the spring. The angles is realized by the slope of the voltage. I mean, the sourve of voltage must change the frequency of the signal. Maybe I can add a positive sinus voltage from 0 to 90° and add a negative sinus from 90° to 180°, add positive voltage from 181° to 270° and add a negative from 270° to 360°.

Maybe with a capacitor too :

sz95s.png (32.27 kB . 703x543 - viewed 1331 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 09/11/2018 09:53:47
So, if in my mechanical device I need to move the origin of the force, maybe here, it is the same, so I need to move an inductance. I didn't draw the core. I think like I drew the angles of the inductances between them, I  respect the mechanical device:

fd98.png (79.48 kB . 948x743 - viewed 1316 times)

I think it is better to vibrate with a piezoelectric motor. Like the current is alternative,  I think it must have the good direction for the power.

Another method, use the electrons like a mechanical weight. The weight in rotation around A1 is the electrons. I need to use electric field to accelerate and slow down the electrons. I use an alternative current and a piezoelectric motor in vibration. I don't know if the efficiency could be good with that method. Maybe it is what I reach to do but with a capacitor or an inductance. Maybe the only way is to use the electrons like the weight in the mechanical device.

Or maybe like that, the source of current I2 is dephased of 30° relatively to the current inside L1:

fr95.png (64.01 kB . 1169x542 - viewed 1193 times)

or easier:

fr9e8.png (48.91 kB . 1058x439 - viewed 1191 times)

or maybe I need to have an helix for the small radius of the inductance L1 because I don't know how to realize the difference of length I have in the mechanical device:

t8rr8.png (62.56 kB . 1071x587 - viewed 1184 times)

Or L2 the helix:

t88rr.png (59.08 kB . 1065x599 - viewed 1183 times)

Maybe I need to think with a continuous voltage V1 and like that I see how I recover the energy and how I can give it easily. Move a coil inside a continuous magnetic field is an alternative voltage. So if V1 is continuous then V2 is alternative:

f985.png (39.05 kB . 985x389 - viewed 1152 times)

And if I want V1 alternative, V2 is modulation of amplitude AM signal.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 09/11/2018 12:50:52
I think the analogy with the mechanical device needs to resolve the question of the displacement of the motor, the velocity of that speed.

1/ Analogy with angular velocity <=> electric current:
One turn is realized by the current, very fast, the electrons run at 0.5*c, so it will be very difficult to move so quickly a big distance. Of the small diameter of L1 must be very small, and maybe a piezo can do the job, or another method.

2/ Analogy with angular velocity <=> electric voltage
Here, I can move at the velocity I want. If I have an alternative voltage for the capacitors, I can move in relation with the frequency of the voltage source.

3/ I take the analogy angular velocity <=> inductance
For example, a solenoide is L=k*NČ with k a constance and N the number of turns of the solenoide. The energy is 1/2*L*IČ=kNČIČ. If I consider the current like contant inside the solenoide (I build a device to realized that), the energy is E=k'NČ. I can change easily the solenoide with a saturated core: I add a DC (constant) current inside the core, to saturated it less or more like I want. With a solenoide the energy is big, I work with an alternative signal, I have low losses if the resistance of the inductance is low. There is no mechanical movement except the source of force. I will think about that.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 09/11/2018 16:29:34
If I use the capacitor the geometry implies a very low capacitance of maybe with semiconductor it is efficient, like it is possible to work at high frequency and like the signal are sinusoidal the losses are reduced.

If I use the inductor, maybe I can use the flux, I'm not sure about what I need to take in reference, I mean, in the mechanical device I must try to accelerate the bolt from something in rotation around A1. But here, it is the current itself ? or the effect of the current like the magnetic flux ?

But I need to move faster than the equivalent of the mechanical inertia. If it is the current, it is difficult but possible in a lab and for the matter, it is not a problem. If it is the voltage, the voltage can be fixed, so it seems possible but the capacitor must move something, and I think it is the voltage not the geometry and it is better.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: RD on 09/11/2018 17:19:04
Maybe with a capacitor too

Work is done to charge a capacitor (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capeng2.html#c4) : You don't get back all the electrical-energy you put in.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 09/11/2018 17:31:44
Yes, you're right and it is a big problem ! But when I discharge a capacitor, the sum of energy is constant, half part is in heating the other part in electric. Here I recover part of electric, a part of heating but the sum of energy is not constant (if my mechanical device works). But it could be the explanation why nobody reached to create the energy with a device because even with a mechanical device the potential kinetic energy is so big, the losses are bigger than the extra energy. With the capacitor, half is lost in heating. With an inductor, you must be faster than the current or it is not the speed of the current but the value of the current, in that case it could be easier.

But here, maybe it is possible to recover the energy from the capacitor whithout discharge it. Maybe a LC resonant circuit and L is the primary of a transformer, in the secondary I recover the energy. It is just an idea like that.

Maybe for the inductance, I can have L1 in aluminium and L3 in copper like that the current is faster.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: RD on 09/11/2018 18:36:48
With an inductor ...

Analogous to a capacitor : inevitably energy is lost when energizing an inductor,
e.g. see ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer#Energy_losses

... aluminium ... copper ...
All room-temperature metals/materials have electrical-resistance : than means inevitably some electrical-energy is lost via heat.
You cannot get-out all the electrical-energy you put-in.

... if my mechanical device works...

All perpetual-motion, (and "over unity"), machines are impossible ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 09/11/2018 18:59:48
I'm agree with you. And the transformer lost at least 1% or more of energy in heating. In my mechanical device I supposed not friction just to simplify the calculations. I know, there is always a heating because there is friction but heating is an energy and even the device gives a heating the sum of energy included heating is constant. Maybe my mechanical device is wrong but I don't find my mistake. It is here : https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=74864.0 look at the last drawings. If I'm wrong in my mechanical device it is not useful to try to find an electric device. I simulated with Comsol without friction (it is easy with a software) I have the same result I calculated (for a small angle of rotation from start).

Edit: for the solution with the capacitor, I don't need to dischaged all the capacitor, just enough to recover the initial condition. So the energy lost is 50% of the energy in addition and it is exploitable.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 10/11/2018 11:54:32
I don't need to move in the electric device, the movement is the signal. If I put a continuous voltage from V1, then V2 is alternative. If V1 is alternative, then V2 is AM modulation amplitude. The inductances are like that:

Without any core, I can use the geometry:

de95deq.png (99.75 kB . 987x801 - viewed 2051 times)

With the cores, I need to separate the flux:

de9eq.png (57.5 kB . 811x725 - viewed 2049 times)

With Ngspice, even a sinus source for V2, the sum is not constant:

Code: [Select]
`.TITLE Power calculation* 3 independant cores* core1: V11+L11+R11+L21, K=1 between L11 and L21* core2: V12+L12+R12+L22, K=1 between L12 and L22* core3: L31+R31 connected from L21, L32+R32 connected from L22, L41+R41 connected to V41, K=1 between L41 and L31, K=-1 between L41 and L32, K=-1 between L31 and L32v11 0 1 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0)l11 1 2 15mHr11 2 0 1v12 0 6 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0)l12 6 7 5mHr12 7 0 1l21 0 11 15mHl22 0 16 15mHK1 L21 L11 1K2 L22 L12 1l31 0 13 12mHvd1 13 12 DC 0Vr31 12 11 1 l32 16 18 12mHvd2 18 17 DC 0Vr32 17 0 1K3 L31 L32 -1l41 0 31 5mHr41 31 32 1 K4 L41 L31 1K5 L41 L32 -1*V41 0 32 AM(5 0 20 100 0 0)V41 0 32 SIN(0 20V 100 0 0)bsourcepower ps 0 v = abs( v(1)*i(v11))  +abs( v(6)*i(v12)) + abs(v(32)*i(v41))bloadpower   pl 0 v = abs(v(2,1)*i(v11)) + abs(v(7,6)*i(v12)) + abs(v(11)*i(vd1)) + abs(v(16)*i(vd2)) + abs(v(13)*i(vd1)) + abs(v(18,16)*i(vd2)) + abs(v(31)*i(v41)) + abs(i(v11)*i(v11)) + abs(i(v12)*i(v12)) + abs(i(v41)*i(v41)) + abs(i(vd1)*i(vd1)) + abs(i(vd2)*i(vd2)).tran 0.01ms 100ms.control  run  write power.raw  plot (ps-pl).endc.end`

ds9.png (17.82 kB . 700x571 - viewed 2012 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 11/11/2018 10:05:03
If the amplitude of the current is the rotational velocity, I can design the transformer exactly like the mechanical device, I mean I respect the geometry. But all is fixed, the velocity of the current inside the wire will be like movement in the mechanical device. And I think I need to have a modulation of amplitude for V2 if V1 is a sinus function.

The design is a loop of a wire around A1 like the rotation of the bolt around A1. The bolt is a cylinder, so I can loop the wire like the cylinder of the bolt but in the contrary direction. The bolt is at -30° relatively to the axis A1 (the axis A1 is vertical), so the wire that represents the cylinder of the bolt is at -30° relatively to the vertical. In the mechanical device I move the spring, but here I think I can use the principle of the electricity and change the shape of the signal of V2. V2 is linked to the energy of the loop around A1, so I need to take power from this loop, any method could be used, but I need to respect the angle, so it could be a spire of wire at 30° relatively to the horizontal. I need to move a lot with the spring, √3 when the bolt turns of 1, so the AM modulation must be with a factor √3 relatively to the frequency of V1, so it is like V2 is much faster than V1, so maybe it is better to choose anothers signalslike V1 AM modulation and V2 sinus. I will think about that. The bolt has a torque so I need to add a voltage to the spires that represents the bolt, any method could be used but there is an angle too.

deded9e.png (75.19 kB . 1105x702 - viewed 1991 times)

Or with only one inductance for the bolt around A1 and around itself:

frdd6.png (73.93 kB . 1003x664 - viewed 1950 times)

The mechanical device give only an energy for a transcient duration. So, I need recover the energy from the spiral to repeat the cycle. Even I need to move but I don't recover an energy from that, I need in addition to have something that repeat the initial condition. Maybe an electronic circuit or maybe I can do the job with the signal of V1 and V2. If I think with my mechanical device, and if I rotate in one direction and after in the second like the sinusoidal signal does with the current, I can recover the energy at the next half period. So maybe just the signals are enough to recover the energy.

With the core:

gtg9r.png (98.47 kB . 1130x704 - viewed 1928 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 13/11/2018 19:19:41
I think it could be ok with V1=50Hz and V2=100Hz, because when I accelerate the bolt around A1 I need to help the rotation around A1, but in the deceleration I need to attract, so V2 is at the double of the frequency of V1.

frfr5.png (41.47 kB . 618x471 - viewed 1807 times)

V1=sin(x) red color
V2=sin(2*x) or -sin(2x) black color

The inductance L1 can be 2 separated inductances in serial:

dd9d.png (97.87 kB . 1098x694 - viewed 1779 times)

V2 is the double of the frequency of V1 and it could be could because it could be the analogy of the movement of the spring.

Maybe an example of the good function is sin(x^2.53) from 0 to pi/2 and -sin((pi-x)^2.53) from pi/2 to pi:

de9ds.png (32.76 kB . 1127x475 - viewed 1750 times)

Like that I change the frequency on each quarter to have the analogy of the vibration of the spring (if the disk rotates in 2 directions)

v1:  black color, V2: red color:

sd3.png (63.66 kB . 1125x426 - viewed 1745 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 16/11/2018 12:08:28
Maybe like that:

ed9s.png (44.71 kB . 1123x423 - viewed 1748 times)

the signal respect :

frequency increases: move in one direction
frequency decreases: move in the other direction

and the spring push in a quarter of period and attract in the other quarter, etc.

The exact power is 1.6055116

It is not a perfect signal. In the worst case I case put a piezoelectric motor or another technology to vibrate the inductance L3 and L2.

Maybe it is easier than I think, like that:

fr55.png (75.02 kB . 1002x765 - viewed 1698 times)

So I can add an iron on L. I mean 2 irons because the bolt around A1 is independant with the rotation around itselft (longitudinal axis of the bolt). On iron for the part of L horizontal (side view) and another iron for the part of L with an angle of 30° relatively of the horizontal:

deds3.png (35.17 kB . 947x393 - viewed 1684 times)

Or more complex:

fd9z.png (111.88 kB . 1024x751 - viewed 1667 times)

Or with only one inductance and one closed iron, 2 sources of voltage:

frr6.png (105.35 kB . 1155x768 - viewed 1649 times)

If the source of voltage is arbitrary, it is possible to have only one source of voltage.

So the device is one core, one inductance, one source of voltage. I need to add only the secondary.

With additional turns :

frcs3.png (123.62 kB . 1197x762 - viewed 1653 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 17/11/2018 07:55:17
Like that when the motor gives a clockwise torque on the bolt around itself, the motor gives a counterclockwise torque around A1. V2 with the iron realized that.

rf9f9.png (117.63 kB . 1270x797 - viewed 1627 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 21/11/2018 03:40:37
In the mechanical device, the sum of energy is not conserved even the motor don't vibrate, so it could be easier for the signal of V2. But I need to reverse the signal V2 relatively to V1 to create the energy:

hyhh3y.png (94.25 kB . 1111x737 - viewed 1526 times)

The mechanical device is unstable, work only in a transcient duration. Here, the alternative current helps a lot.

Like in the mechanical device, the rotation around A1 lost an energy but the spring wins more, here an energy from V1 is lost but V2 recover an energy. So I don't think I need a secondary. V1 lost 0.75, V2 wins 1, so with the efficiency of the transformer, copper losses, iron losses, it is not so easy to measure. The device must be unstable. So, I need to have a power dissipation in a resistance and measure riČ.

If V1 and V2 is the same source of voltage:

dcy.png (34.75 kB . 1033x467 - viewed 1453 times)

The energy is recovered from V2
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 22/11/2018 11:45:36
So the transformer has only a primary with 2 inductances L1 and L2 but there is no secondary. The source of voltage recover the energy. I'm not sure about the sign of V2 in reference of V1.

rd6.png (93.57 kB . 1151x561 - viewed 1427 times)

9521.png (169.07 kB . 1163x794 - viewed 1397 times)

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rffr5.png (173.37 kB . 1163x809 - viewed 1372 times)

dec3.png (196.04 kB . 1167x801 - viewed 1332 times)

de58.png (47.68 kB . 859x665 - viewed 1304 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 24/11/2018 11:02:13
Maybe I need to have turns for L2 like that:

olp3.png (172.59 kB . 1151x813 - viewed 1301 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 25/11/2018 03:30:08
In the mechanical device I increase the length of the spring more than it would be, the energy comes from F*d. Here, the energy comes from U*I*t, I think I have more current inside the inductance L2 than compared with a standard coil. And the analogy of a displacement is a charge, so more current during a duration.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 26/11/2018 09:27:02
I think i need to move but relatively to the speed of the electricity... And like i have an helix, i need to move really in vertical (side view). Or i need to separate V2, the left part is a sinus function but at right it is sin(pow(x, 2.33)). The left action from the spring acts in standard but the action on the cylinder must move vertically, here maybe it could work with V2. So there is one V1 but two V2.

L1 is connected with V1 in serial with V2. V1 is a sinus function at frequency F. V2 is at frequency 2F, +sinus for the first half period of V1 and - sinus for the second half period of V1.

L2 is coonected with V1 in serial with V3. V3 is like i drew before, sin(pow(x,2.33)), V3 is at 2F

tggt5.png (166.02 kB . 1169x817 - viewed 1335 times)

or:

eduj.png (43.63 kB . 780x472 - viewed 1301 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 27/11/2018 18:53:04
Maybe the circuit with V2 must be like that:

g5.png (131.16 kB . 1174x806 - viewed 1396 times)

The helix is realized by the iron, the flux is like the current, Φ=Ni, so it is possible to use the flux like in the helix shape

Maybe L2 can be only on the Iron2.

o96.png (136.53 kB . 1185x816 - viewed 1383 times)

I drew only L5 and L5' but I can have more to recover all the vertical flux and all the rotational flux like that I have the helix.

Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 29/11/2018 20:37:10
Not easy to have the equivalent of the mechanical helix maybe like that:

dx6.png (128.34 kB . 1090x722 - viewed 1406 times)

It is a motor, not a transformer. I can put the helix inside the rotor, and the distance D is the distance between the stator and the rotor.

cddc3.png (18.17 kB . 951x604 - viewed 1403 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 30/11/2018 10:26:14
To have an helix i need to use the electric field and the magnetic field and it is very small in a conductor. So with a particle accelerator like a cyclotron i can have the 2 fields and the helix exists. Need only to apply the mechanical device to that device.

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Better to increase the frequency: use a quartz to reduce the inductance.

The rotor is on the iron1 not 2 because the bolt moves farther from A1, so it is L1 that must be linked:

ed55.png (107.98 kB . 1227x802 - viewed 1298 times)

It is better to have closed iron always, and change the inductance with transistors and severals coils for L1 that I can set in serial:

ik6.png (126.9 kB . 1021x719 - viewed 1285 times)

If I use a mechanical device to change the length of the inductance L1, the device will have forces of Laplace.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 02/12/2018 17:12:44
The impedance of L1 can change like an helix, if the voltage is constant then the current change like an helix:

dcik.png (144.79 kB . 1096x718 - viewed 1265 times)

Maybe I need a flux linkage between L4 and L1 to realized the function helix:

cfr3.png (146.66 kB . 1096x704 - viewed 1239 times)

But the flux linkage must be between L3 and L1 to realized the helix:

bg5.png (169.34 kB . 1243x821 - viewed 1235 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 04/12/2018 13:31:43
I need a capacitor to have the additional rotation. I separate V2 for L3 and L4. V2 is directly connected to L3. But V2 is in serial with a capacitor and in serial with L4.

ju58.png (127.33 kB . 1259x636 - viewed 1204 times)

yh9.png (155.71 kB . 1270x667 - viewed 1189 times)

If I think with only a short time:

V1 is a constant voltage (heaviside step fucnction)
V2 to L4 must be a slope (triangle)
V2 to L3 must be a sinusoide, the length of the curve of a sinusoide is an helix
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/12/2018 08:23:21
For a single shot:

V1=10v dc, before t=0 V1=10 and after t=0 it is always 10
V2=1 V dc heavyside function

I choose L3 and C to have a resonant circuit, the length of the sinus is an helix.

I don't need to use the transformer with an alternative voltage for V1. I can have a continuous dc voltage for V1. V2 is a heaviside step of voltage. For L4 the current is like a log function but for L3 it is an helix because there is the capacitor. I need to integrate the current to have an helix, so i need to add components.

I can repeat the cycle
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 05/12/2018 13:58:38
In fact it is like the helix is the length of the signal, but I think it is relatively to another object, here maybe it is possible to have a sin(x)*exp(-x) function for the voltage on L3 and a length like log(x) in L4, and the difference could be the length of an helix:

gv5.png (72.58 kB . 1155x453 - viewed 1123 times)

frf6.png (114.21 kB . 1375x534 - viewed 1106 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 07/12/2018 09:26:13
I think i don't need the capacitor, the resistance of the inductance will be the parameter for the time.

And the solution is not better than the mechanical device due to the losses from the resistance. So it is possible with supra conductors.

Maybe the mechanical device is not so bad. Standard technology. Need only to reduce the pressure of air and have good rolling elements bearing

Maybe it is possible with large section of copper for the inductance.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 08/12/2018 07:01:39
For one cycle:

klo.png (73.62 kB . 1105x359 - viewed 997 times)

It is possible to reduce the losses of the current if I increase the diameter of the wire of L1 and L2 so it is not a problem with a standard technology.
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 11/12/2018 15:11:08
If i need to usea dot where the angular velocity is 0 in the mechanical device, then, i need to have a separate iron for L4

gt887.png (69.58 kB . 1091x433 - viewed 850 times)
Title: Re: Electric analogy of the mechanical device to create the energy
Post by: LB7 on 12/12/2018 09:43:44
And for the electric analogy:

1544607442016578.jpg (102.66 kB . 1984x1488 - viewed 747 times)

Maybe L2 and L3 can be just in short circuit, i mean L2 closed to itself and L3 closed to itself.