# Naked Science Forum

## On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: mad aetherist on 10/11/2018 22:19:15

Title: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 10/11/2018 22:19:15
Wiki says yes gravity can have instantaneous action at a distance -- IAAAD.
Static fields
The speed of physical changes in a gravitational or electromagnetic field should not be confused with "changes" in the behavior of static fields that are due to pure observer-effects. These changes in direction of a static field, because of relativistic considerations, are the same for an observer when a distant charge is moving, as when an observer (instead) decides to move with respect to a distant charge. Thus, constant motion of an observer with regard to a static charge and its extended static field (either a gravitational or electric field) does not change the field. For static fields, such as the electrostatic field connected with electric charge, or the gravitational field connected to a massive object, the field extends to infinity, and does not propagate. Motion of an observer does not cause the direction of such a field to change, and by symmetrical considerations, changing the observer frame so that the charge appears to be moving at a constant rate, also does not cause the direction of its field to change, but requires that it continue to "point" in the direction of the charge, at all distances from the charge.

The consequence of this is that static fields (either electric or gravitational) always point directly to the actual position of the bodies that they are connected to, without any delay that is due to any "signal" traveling (or propagating) from the charge, over a distance to an observer. This remains true if the charged bodies and their observers are made to "move" (or not), by simply changing reference frames. This fact sometimes causes confusion about the "speed" of such static fields, which sometimes appear to change infinitely quickly when the changes in the field are mere artifacts of the motion of the observer, or of observation.

In such cases, nothing actually changes infinitely quickly, save the point of view of an observer of the field. For example, when an observer begins to move with respect to a static field that already extends over light years, it appears as though "immediately" the entire field, along with its source, has begun moving at the speed of the observer. This, of course, includes the extended parts of the field. However, this "change" in the apparent behavior of the field source, along with its distant field, does not represent any sort of propagation that is faster than light.

It means that gravity has two speeds -- infinite (ie IAAAD), for an established (static) field -- & c (speed of propagation of gravity waves) for changes in a field (which i guess makes it non-static).
I dont believe any of that -- a propagation speed of c is rubbish -- Van Flandern said it was at least 20 billion c.
And i dont believe in that IAAAD stuff. But it is definitely a brain teaser. I will be back.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/11/2018 23:11:25
Did you read the stuff in blue?
does not represent any sort of propagation that is faster than light.
any delay that is due to any "signal" traveling (or propagating)
appear to
as though "immediately"
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: guest46746 on 11/11/2018 00:17:45
I'm in my Oumuamua microwave infinity drive light sail spaceship, oh no! This part of space is lacking sufficient ions to power the engines. Does my ship drift aimlessly or does it gravitate to the closest most powerful gravitational field, no matter how weak?  If it gravitates towards the closest gravitational field, the response is instantaneous no matter how slow and weak the pull is. lol

Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 11/11/2018 00:35:21
The first problem for Einsteinians is that they have no good idea of what a field is. They think that a field can be considered in isolation – that a field can of itself exert a force.  I say that a field can only transmit a force, ie from one thing to another.  Or putting it another way, the transmission effect is the field, & the field is the transmission effect.  Transmission is the key, & transmission needs-involves a speed.  In the case of gravity the transmission is at at least 20 billion c.

A gravity field is created by aether accelerating into mass where it is annihilated. Aether is not compressible – hencely the acceleration into say Earth involves streamlines converging in 3D – which gives a 1/RR kind of field.  Ignoring here the contractile nature of aether (Ranzan), which i find hard to understand.

Objects accelerate with the aether, giving us g.  The speed of the aether inflow is probly 11.2 kmps at Earth's surface (ie Earth's escape velocity).  Any forced resistance to g needs a force, eg my wt when i stand on my bathroom scales. Conversely any forced acceleration of an object needs a force, which we name inertia.  And the need for inertial force is named mass.

Aether is sub-quantum & has no mass – aether cannot of itself provide a force, it merely transmits force tween quantum objects.  This transmission involves a continuous back & forth reverberation kind of process – transmitting at at least 20 billion c.  We see the Sun where it was say 500 sec ago (or more correctly that there  light from the Sun was emitted 500 sec ago) – but the gravity of the Sun reverberates more than 20 billion times in that there 500 sec (or say more than 10 billion times, if one back & forth = one reverberation).

All elementary particles have mass (annihilate aether), & hencely all such particles have their own micro gravity field – the macro gravity field of an object being the nett sum.  In some instances it is ok to consider that say Earth's total mass is in effect at Earth's center, but sometimes this might lead to a non-real model.

In the above aether theory it makes no difference whether the Sun is apparently static or truly static or any other kind of static – we only need to know the relative motion (eg relative motion of Earth versus the Sun).  Which one is static makes no difference to the nature of the reverberation.  The question-concept of IAAAD is irrelevant.

Gravity waves do not exist. The above reverberations are a pulse, not a wave. A wave is i think essentially a natural harmonic property of a medium.  A pulse is a forced motion & can take any given form depending on the characteristics of the applied force.

Quadrupole gravity waves do not exist.  And if they did exist they would not travel at c – they would travel at at least 20 billion c.  The supposed GWs of LIGO (ie the chirp) are forced, they are not waves, they are gravity-pulses.  The whole concept of QGWs is rubbish.  This becomes obvious if u consider that any solid sphere can be made by assembling hundreds of interlocking quadrupolar dumbbell shaped bits – & hencely such a sphere when spinning must emit hundreds of GWs, which, even if one made the argument that the GWs negated giving a nett zero wave, nonetheless would need energy for each wave, & those energies would not negate, they would be additive.

Anyhow, as explained above -- gravity does not have IAAAD.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 11/11/2018 00:59:03
I'm in my Oumuamua microwave infinity drive light sail spaceship, oh no! This part of space is lacking sufficient ions to power the engines. Does my ship drift aimlessly or does it gravitate to the closest most powerful gravitational field, no matter how weak?  If it gravitates towards the closest gravitational field, the response is instantaneous no matter how slow and weak the pull is. lol . was this a trick question? lol
The spaceship is always gravitating in a gravity field. But praps there are small locations where the gravity field is nearnuff zero.  Anyhow a force might be there at all times, but that force is never instantaneous, it is the result of a reverberation transmitting back & forth at at least 20 billion c.

The reverberation is back & forth to each object (eg star etc), the nearer ones having a quicker effect (& probly a stronger effect), but ultimately in theory the reverberation will reach to the far corners of our cosmos.
At 20 billion c gravity would take 157.68 sec to cross the 100,000 light-year diameter of the Milky Way.

An interesting aside. Ranzan explains that we live in an infinitely big dynamic steady state universe (DSSU), made up of similar cells each say 200 million light-years across. Each cell has a creation zone where aether is created -- & at the common borders of the cells where most of the mass is found aether is annihilated inside mass -- there being a continual flow of aether.  The question arises as to whether stars in other cells can interact gravitationally with our spaceship.  The obvious answer is yes -- but not so obviously a star located such that its gravity needs to cross say a cosmic creation zone plus a cosmic annihilation zone might find that its gravity doesnt survive the journey there being hi-jinx along the way.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 11/11/2018 01:01:13
Did you read the stuff in blue?
does not represent any sort of propagation that is faster than light.
any delay that is due to any "signal" traveling (or propagating)
appear to
as though "immediately"
Yes -- that is IAAAD -- like i said.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: guest46746 on 11/11/2018 23:03:27
If the reverberations are quantum fluctuations,  fluctuations permeate empty space, the S/T fabric is constantly altering itself, by motion. As S/T was first manifested by a warping. This warping is inherent in it's fabric on a standard physics and a quantum physics level. The fluctuations are not so much oscillations, as oscillation infer a continuous rate as would be found in a charged particle. Thses fluctuations nevertheless do arise and recind as dirty "reverberations" meaning that they are not uniformed. The rapidity of these reverberation/fluctuations cannot be measured because they do not oscillate, they appear and disappear in no uniform fashion or shape. The rapidity that they do "percolate" a bad analogy, could meet your 20 billion c criteria, I don't know.  At this point with little gravity because of the lack of mass to calm/stabilize the S/T reverberation/fluctuations, the quantum fluctuations  could percolate/warp without uniformity and at rate that supports popping in and out of existence.

On a different forum I could further speculate on how the reverberation/quantum fluctuations could manifest instantaneously, but portions of the above is stretching it on a science forum! lol
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 11/11/2018 23:23:48
If the reverberations are quantum fluctuations,  fluctuations permeate empty space, the S/T fabric is constantly altering itself, by motion. As S/T was first manifested by a warping. This warping is inherent in it's fabric on a standard physics and a quantum physics level. The fluctuations are not so much oscillations, as oscillation infer a continuous rate as would be found in a charged particle. Thses fluctuations nevertheless do arise and recind as dirty "reverberations" meaning that they are not uniformed. The rapidity of these reverberation/fluctuations cannot be measured because they do not oscillate, they appear and disappear in no uniform fashion or shape. The rapidity that they do "percolate" a bad analogy, could meet your 20 billion c criteria, I don't know.  At this point with little gravity because of the lack of mass to calm/stabilize the S/T reverberation/fluctuations, the quantum fluctuations  could percolate/warp without uniformity and at rate that supports popping in and out of existence.

On a different forum I could further speculate on how the reverberation/quantum fluctuations could manifest instantaneously, but portions of the above is stretching it on a science forum! lol
I am thinking that there is no quantum stuff going on re my macro reverberations which are a velocity-acceleration of the bulk flow of aether (associated with gravity).  I dont think that gravity is a quantum thing.

However the micro vibrations or spins or vortexes or something of the aether giving us free photons etc might be quantum -- ie light is quantum -- the aether itself being sub-quantum (having no mass etc as we know it).

All of my stuff is in the new theories section. Its a pity that each section (eg physics etc) doesnt have its own new theories sub-section -- but its better than nothing.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/11/2018 19:35:16

?
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 13/11/2018 00:00:56
Aberration and the speed of gravity -- S Carlip -- 1999. https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9909087.pdf
Carlip reckons that GR gives in effect an infinite-instantaneous speed to gravity (a sort of IAAAD), even tho the speed of gravity is merely c, ie the same as the speed of light.

Finally, let us return to the question asked in Ref. [1]: what do experiments say about the speed of gravity? The answer, unfortunately, is that so far they say fairly little. In the absence of direct measurements of propagation speed, observations must be filtered through theory, and different theoretical assumptions lead to different deductions. In particular, while the observed absence of aberration is consistent with instantaneous propagation (with an extra interaction somehow added on to explain the gravitational radiation reaction), it is also consistent with the speed-of-light propagation predicted by general relativity.
Within the framework of general relativity, though, observations do give an answer. The Einstein field equations contain a single parameter cg, which describes both the speed of gravitational waves and the “speed of gravity” occurring in the expression for aberration and in the velocity-dependent terms in the interaction. This parameter appears in the gravitational radiation reaction in the form c −5 g , as in eqn. (3.3), and the success of the theory in explaining the orbital decay of binary pulsars implies that cg = c at the 1% level or better.......

Well i'll be a monkey's uncle -- if Carlip can use GR to show that gravity acts instantly at a distance even tho propagating at only c then i think that nothing is beyond the possibilities for GR -- Einsteinians have a never ending menu of pushes & fudges & hand-waves to explain away any paradox.
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: guest46746 on 13/11/2018 01:27:21
The Space/Time fabric, Gravity, was the first fundamental force, it is distinct from EM light and its products, the  strong and weak nuclear forces. As gravity was the first force, it's influence and boundaries exist beyond those of EM Light., meaning S/T extends beyond the furthest reaches of EM light. Gravity's force/energy level is thought be less than 10^-39th. EM Light's energy level is the speed of light. Instanteous action exist when Gravity at it's lowest level
10^-39th and doesnot interact with EM LIght to create kinetic energy. Light has a spin of 1, Gravity has a spin of 2, when interacting with Light, Gravity is forced to spin twice to intertwine with Light's single spin. This intertwining create a forward kinetic energy. This forward kinetic energy is the speed of Light. Light cannot be measured without a Gravity component, any attempt to do so is restricted by the uncertainity principle. Due to Gravity, either position or velocity can be approximated but not both, the speed of light will always be bound by Gravity, making it true velocity unknownable. S/T on the other hand is is not bound by LIght. Without Light, S/T exist as a very low negative energy field. This field does fluctuate at a tremendous rate, that is capable of popping in and out of existence/time.
A possible "20 billion c" rate, maybe, can be thought of as being so fluid as to make instantaneous action possible at distance.

So S/T that exist beyond the furthest reaches of LIght, and having it's fluctuations not slowed by an intertwining with Light, can have instantaneous actions across the Universe. The path of these instantaneous actions, however, do not cut across the Light populated Universe but circumvent Universe at it's edges where Light as yet to populate Gravity. lol

I suppose there are areas in Universe that are conducive to instantaneous actions but these are the exceptions and must be deviod of Light.  lol
Title: Re: Gravity, does it have instantaneous action at a distance?
Post by: mad aetherist on 13/11/2018 02:23:16
The Space/Time fabric, Gravity, was the first fundamental force, it is distinct from EM light and its products, the  strong and weak nuclear forces. As gravity was the first force, it's influence and boundaries exist beyond those of EM Light., meaning S/T extends beyond the furthest reaches of EM light. Gravity's force/energy level is thought be less than 10^-39th. EM Light's energy level is the speed of light. Instanteous action exist when Gravity at it's lowest level
10^-39th and doesnot interact with EM LIght to create kinetic energy. Light has a spin of 1, Gravity has a spin of 2, when interacting with Light, Gravity is forced to spin twice to intertwine with Light's single spin. This intertwining create a forward kinetic energy. This forward kinetic energy is the speed of Light. Light cannot be measured without a Gravity component, any attempt to do so is restricted by the uncertainity principle. Due to Gravity, either position or velocity can be approximated but not both, the speed of light will always be bound by Gravity, making it true velocity unknownable. S/T on the other hand is is not bound by LIght. Without Light, S/T exist as a very low negative energy field. This field does fluctuate at a tremendous rate, that is capable of popping in and out of existence/time.
A possible "20 billion c" rate, maybe, can be thought of as being so fluid as to make instantaneous action possible at distance.
So S/T that exist beyond the furthest reaches of LIght, and having it's fluctuations not slowed by an intertwining with Light, can have instantaneous actions across the Universe. The path of these instantaneous actions, however, do not cut across the Light populated Universe but circumvent Universe at it's edges where Light as yet to populate Gravity. lol
I suppose there are areas in Universe that are conducive to instantaneous actions but these are the exceptions and must be deviod of Light.  lol
The speed of light must i think be associated with a photon's mass -- somehow the propagation speed of a photon's main helical body & the propagation speed of the photaenos emanating from the helix must be associated with the mass of the helix & the mass of the photaeno(s) -- & mass gives gravity -- & saying that the speed of light will always be bound by gravity might be ok'ish.
In addition we know that light is slowed near mass (Shapiro Delay), so here is another affect of gravity (mass). I have explained that this slowing is due to photaeno-drag (due to photaeno congestion)(poor old aetherons find it hard to multi-task).