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Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: MicL on 25/04/2019 22:28:30

Title: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: MicL on 25/04/2019 22:28:30
Heres something to ponder, i'm not saying i'm correct but it may be an interesting read, it may make ya laugh, who knows.

I seen a video discussing that time dilation from a black hole creates a problem, where from our perspective if we could see you, you would freeze in time on the very edge of the black hole itself due to the time dilation and remain there for eternity, because you are being accelerated to the speed of light while you're pulled in, thus slowing down your time infinitely from our point of view, so you freeze.  What they suggest is that the perspective of the person falling in, well, they simply pass through and enter. Therefor an "event" happened, but didn't from the outside.

I tend to disagree, assuming I understand correctly, As you fall into a black hole, the universe behind you would age faster, faster, faster till it ages quintillions of years in an instant because you're infinitely slowing down in time relative to the universe. If a black hole Decays and explodes within 10 quadrillion years, well, wouldn't that mean from your perspective you would see the Black hole shrink as you approached it because its aging as well as the universe, if hawking radiation is correct it would shrink as you're falling into it and eventually explode. You being matter thats accelerated to the speed of light would be part of that explosion 10 quadrillion years from now.

Or if black holes never decay, you would just experience the entire aging of the universe in a flash then disappear as the universe disappears. But lets ignore that and assume black holes decay.

So if this were true, it would imply that black holes are simply Time anomalies, time traps. The gravity well becomes so intense that time locks up relative to the universe, the core of the star is still there in its most possible dense form, but will not collapse further because A - physically can not and B - time has virtually stopped.

So over 10 quadrillion years the black hole decays, it gets so small that the gravity in it becomes too weak and finally, time starts to speed up because the well is no longer as strong, as time speeds up, the decay speeds up, and eventually this back and forth within a millionth of a second creates a huge explosion.

So a black hole could very well be a delayed massive supernova, its gravity so intense it bends time to the point where it virtually stops, thus becomes "black" to us because the information going in/out is stuck in time. It sits like this until hawking radiation decays it as well as the matter collected over time, then finally the explosion can finish and it does, in a nice ending explosion.

this would also imply everything pulled in gets stuck in time on the outer edge, so there would be a shell, in the shape of a sphere, around the Time locked core of the black hole, where all the matter collected sits..

But again, the black holes perspective, since time is "locked" until it decays enough all it'll "see" is it simply exploding.. but during this explosion the universe ages 10 quadrillion years.. a dragged out explosion because of time. From your perspective falling in, you would see billions of stars and dust get sucked in within a trillionth of a microsecond and boom, explosion. (in reality you would just get accelerated to virtually light speed, turn into a hot plasma and be part of an explosion)

OR.... you would "decay" before even reaching the end of the black holes life. If you're part of that shell of time locked matter around the time locked core, you'll decay over time.. so maybe you wouldn't be part of the end explosion, you would just vaporize as you're entering .. so anything entering would vaporize into individual particles before reaching the center. Hmm

If this were all the case, there is no secret inside - just the core of the star in its most dense form, locked in time.

Sorry if I wasted your time, I was bored and thought hey maybe i can discuss possibilities and hypotheticals with some other folks. Cheers.
Title: Re: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: evan_au on 27/04/2019 03:40:54
Quote from: MicL
the universe behind you would age faster, faster, faster till it ages quintillions of years in an instant
I think you may have confused two viewpoints:
1. From the viewpoint of a distant observer, they may still detect an occasional photon from the infalling spacecraft seconds, hours, or even days after the infalling spacecraft should have hit the event horizon, but:
      - these photons will all be emitted in the last millisecond before the infalling spacecraft hit the event horizon
      - a photon delayed by a second will be red-shifted by a factor of thousands
      - a photon delayed by a day will be red-shifted by a factor of millions
      - and these photons will arrive less and less frequently as time goes by

 2. From the viewpoint of the infalling spacecraft, light from the outside universe will be blue-shifted as they approach the predicted location of the event horizon
      - In the last microseconds before they reach the predicted location of the event horizon, light emitted from distant sources will be blue-shifted into the ultraviolet and X-Rays and gamma rays for a millisecond (not a healthy place to be for a long period!)
      - But this radiation reaching them in the last microseconds would have arrived at the black hole over a period of milliseconds
      - So rather than seeing the universe age by "quintillions of years in an instant", they would see the universe age by "milliseconds in an instant".

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The gravity well becomes so intense that time locks up relative to the universe, the core of the star is still there in its most possible dense form, but will not collapse further
Nobody really knows what happens in the twisted spacetime inside the event horizon.

But a common interpretation of the equations suggests that all matter in core of the collapsing star - plus any space probes that venture in later - are on a one-way trip to the center of the black hole, as inexorable as the progress of time itself.

Hawking Radiation is predicted to originate just outside the event horizon, rather than with matter that has already passed within the event horizon.
Title: Re: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: MicL on 27/04/2019 04:15:03
Quote
2. From the viewpoint of the infalling spacecraft, light from the outside universe will be blue-shifted as they approach the predicted location of the event horizon
      - In the last microseconds before they reach the predicted location of the event horizon, light emitted from distant sources will be blue-shifted into the ultraviolet and X-Rays and gamma rays for a millisecond (not a healthy place to be for a long period!)
      - But this radiation reaching them in the last microseconds would have arrived at the black hole over a period of milliseconds
      - So rather than seeing the universe age by "quintillions of years in an instant", they would see the universe age by "milliseconds in an instant".

Oh I understand this, the blueshift is due to the intense gravity, but your experience of time will change as well due to the intensity of the gravity being subjected to you.

So lets break it down I suppose, The gravitational pull is so intense that time itself is affected, its been established that as you approach you'll "slow down to a stop" relative to the outside perspective because of this effect. The individual falling in will not experience "slowing down to a stop", they will experience time just as we do, but the space outside of their bubble of slowed down time would be very quick. So all the light of the universe, all the stars, planets, dust, etc pulled in would be pulled in quicker and quicker the closer you get to the black hole, well, it'll seem like that because time relative to you is speeding up, no?

If the black hole does decay and explode in "XXX" years, then we can assume that the object locked in time on the very edge of the black hole from our perspective, never enters.. As they believe currently. Then if they don't, well, they must be released at the end of the black holes life or as individual particles over "XXX" years (hawking radiation).

So basically, mass reaches a tipping point, creates such intense gravity it slows time to a crawl, light cannot just simply escape because its stuck in a much slower time than ours, what would be a flash would be a flash extended over many many years, hence why its so dark and only spits out tiny bits of matter at a time. This remains like this until the core decays enough for it to start releasing energy, the weaker the gravity, the quicker the time goes, the more matter is able to leave, the more gravity drops, the quicker time goes, etc until you just end up with an explosion.

But I would assume this time dilation has to have some effect on whats going on. Imagine a room, one end of the room you experience 1 year, where as the other side experiences only 1 minute. So you would see them stuck in time... doing 1 minute of motion over the course of 1 year for you, thing is thought all their light will be emitted to you over the course of a year.. 1 minute of light extended to over a year, would you even be able to see them with so little light being emitted? But if you walk to the other side and look back, you'll see the individual moving VERY quickly, doing 1 year of motion within 1 minute relative to you. All the light they emit, would be compressed and sent to you over 1 minute. It would be blinding. So a black hole being in near infinite slow time relative to us, the supernova being stretched over XXX years would emit its blinding flash over XXX years, making it pitch black. Light entering NEVER returns because it gets stuck in time. So ya end up with a black ball that slowly emits bits of particles because of this massive shift in time

I'm not advocating that this is "correct" but discussions like this may open minds to new ideas, besides discussing these things with ourselves is no fun..

Thanks for the reply man!
Title: Re: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: evan_au on 27/04/2019 11:20:53
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Imagine a room, one end of the room you experience 1 year, where as the other side experiences only 1 minute.
Now imagine this room falling into a black hole...

If the room has fallen from a sufficient "height", it will be traveling at almost the speed of light by the time it reaches the event horizon (as seen by a distant observer).

So you won't be able to watch someone doing 1 year of activity (or even 1 minute of activity), because at this speed, the entire room will pass the event horizon in under 100 nanoseconds.
Title: Re: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: MicL on 27/04/2019 20:19:34
Well of course not, i'm just using visuals to describe how the 2 events occur is all, in reality you'd simply die. But this isn't about what you'll experience its just about how time itself is being dragged out over time due to the intense gravitational field, and since time is locked events "inside" the black hole aren't occuring at all, they're frozen relative to the universes perspective (and our own). Until the black hole decays and explodes releasing everything of course

a literal time bomb no?
Title: Re: Black Hole - Infinitely slow Super nova?
Post by: evan_au on 28/04/2019 05:12:02
Quote from:
a literal time bomb no?
The final moments of Hawking Radiation from a micro black hole would go off like a bomb.

But for stellar (or galactic) black holes, they will continue to gain mass from the cosmic microwave background radiation until the CMBR temperature drops below the black hole temperature. ie it must drop from the current 2.7K to nanoKelvins before the black hole starts losing any mass by Hawking radiation. The occasional atom getting sucked in will defer the net mass loss for billions of years after that.

After all the stray atoms are swallowed, there will be a time delay fuse of around 1064 years for a stellar-mass black hole, and 10100 years for a galactic black hole. At that stage, I expect that there will be no biological life around to see it (or be injured by it).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_evaporation

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since time is locked events "inside" the black hole aren't occuring at all
There are theories about what happens inside the event horizon, but nobody really knows.

Your new theory about what happens is not one of the ones I've heard promoted by professional theoretical physicists.