Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 01:01:25

Title: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 01:01:25
Has this test been done before? Shoot buckyballs or the largest known object is to become a matter wave ..at a double slit that is thinner than whatever the projectile is when observed. If a matter wave makes it through, it will mean mass isn't there during the wave and kill the notion that QM objects are both at the same time.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/06/2019 03:40:11
If a matter wave makes it through, it will mean mass isn't there during the wave

How do you figure? Mass doesn't have a size.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 03:42:30
The structure / mass / matter wouldn't have fit through the slits if it was observed.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/06/2019 03:44:25
The structure / mass / matter wouldn't have fit through the slits if it was observed.

"Structure", "mass" and "matter" are not synonyms. Mass doesn't have a size, so the idea that it can't "fit" somewhere doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 03:51:16
They are synonyms for the purpose of this test. If something our size didn't have mass, you wouldn't be able to see it.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 14/06/2019 03:53:18
Mass has little to do with how big a slit something needs to get through... (so the proposed experiment can neither confirm nor challenge the notion that waves can have mass--spoiler alert, waves can have mass)

...but there is a somewhat nifty way to see that mass is important for calculating tunneling barriers for particles (which depends on the wave function treatment of the particles):

We can measure the rates of chemical reactions, and see how much they change when hydrogen atoms are switched for deuterium (chemically identical isotope, but with twice the mass). This is called the kinetic isotope effect (or KIE). Sometimes a hydrogen atom has to tunnel from one place to another for the reaction to occur, and sometimes (especially when the reaction is very cold) this is the rate determining step, which means that we can directly measure how long (on average) it takes for protons to tunnel from x to y, and compare with hoe long it takes deuterons to tunnel from x to y. When this tunneling is the rate determining step, the KIE is very large, sometimes even slowing down by a factor of 100 when doubling the mass of the tunneling particle. This means that mass is an important property of a quantum object, even when considering it as a wave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_isotope_effect#Tunneling
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 03:57:50
okay, it can hold a variable for mass while it's in wave form. The test would still go a long way in getting you guys to realize it's not both matter and waves at the same time.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 14/06/2019 04:02:36
waves are matter...

rather, matter can be modeled as waves, not just as particles
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 04:11:10
oh, so, instead of considering what I'm saying ..you're gonna go with a buckyball physically taking the form of a wave - like a cartoon character being shocked by lightning.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 14/06/2019 08:46:06
oh, so, instead of considering what I'm saying ..you're gonna go with a buckyball physically taking the form of a wave.
That’s not what @chiralSPO said. He said it could be modelled as a wave.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 14/06/2019 14:56:21
I am a professional chemist. I think about electrons and atoms and molecules and molecular-scale systems day-in and day-out. I am well aware that they are neither particles nor waves.

But it is very convenient to think about them as such in certain situations.

I have a kit sitting on my desk in front of me now, which allows me to build models of molecules with balls and sticks. This is very easy to visualize, and holding the models in my hands allows my physical-spatial intuition to make very useful predictions. But let's be honest: these balls and sticks are no more like molecules than this →  ;D ← is a face.

Unfortunately for our simple minds, simplistic models like balls and sticks, fall short quite often when considering systems at this scale. Waves, springs, and pendulums (pendula?) are the next step up, and allow us to tackle dynamic and indeterminate systems.  But again, a system of oscillating springs is not more like a molecule than this ↓
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
↑ is a face.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 14/06/2019 15:00:34
And by the way, buckyballs are far smaller than the largest objects that have been shown to have quantum behaviors: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/physicists-smash-record-for-wave-particle-duality-462c39db8e7b
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/06/2019 18:12:09
How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Presumably the same way they did last time.

"In 1999, the double-slit experiment was successfully performed with buckyball molecules "
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 14/06/2019 23:24:13
One of the admins changed the title. I want slits smaller than the object to prove matter waves don't have structure.
Yes, there are larger objects ..so that means we can do the test with larger slits.
"It could be modeled as a wave" ...hmm, you guys are so close to admitting it.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 15/06/2019 01:55:48
...hmm, you guys are so close to admitting it.
"admitting it" makes it sound as if you believe that "we" know something and are actively trying to prevent that knowledge from spreading...

Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/06/2019 06:11:11
They are synonyms for the purpose of this test.

Not if they lead you to the false conclusion that mass has a size. If you think it does have a size, then what size do you claim that mass is?

If something our size didn't have mass, you wouldn't be able to see it.

Can you even give an example of something that exists that doesn't have mass/energy? Even space-time contains mass/energy in the form of vacuum fluctuations.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: geordief on 15/06/2019 09:50:17
Can you even give an example of something that exists that doesn't have mass/energy? Even space-time contains mass/energy in the form of vacuum fluctuations.
Is that just because (or connected to the fact that) any measurement of mass/energy  is relative to a reference frame and all reference frames' location  are uncertain in the real world?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 15/06/2019 10:17:14
Why don't you read the answers and learn something interesting instead of trying to find the loophole. Even I knew that the buckyball experiment had been done.  It reminds me of the opening of the sketch. "Is this the right room for an argument?". "I've told you once". "No you haven't". "Yes I have." Etc, etc, etc.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 11:10:52
. I want slits smaller than the object
Pretty much by definition of the size of an object, that means that the object won't go through the slits.
So nothing will get through.

Why are you suggesting doing a pointless experiment like that?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: evan_au on 15/06/2019 11:19:39
Quote from: pittsburghjoe
I want slits smaller than the object
Since the object can be described by a quantum wavefunction, the size of the object (and the size of the slits) is a fuzzy concept.

I expect that there is a small but finite chance that the object will be found on the other side of the slit.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 11:37:42
It's a catch 22
If they get through then they must have been "smaller" than the slits.
So you haven't done the experiment "as described" with slits smaller than the buckyballs.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 15:34:14
How is it a catch 22? If the experiment shows the buckyballs were smaller than the slits ..even though the slits are smaller ..it would mean it's structure wasn't there when in wave form. I now wonder if it's a wave of variables / information ..nothing physical.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 15/06/2019 18:58:48
I think we are now confusing two different (but slightly related) concepts: tunneling and interference.

Interference has to do with how waves move AROUND barriers (or how waves from multiple sources interact).

Tunneling has to do with how waves behave at edges (and that they don't just stop). A buckyball (being composed of sixty nuclei and hundreds of electrons) is highly unlikely to tunnel through any barrier. However, single elementary particles can tunnel over vast distances (on a molecular scale) through barriers or empty space.

~~~

There is also the issue that we have to consider what the actual structure of the slits is. Are they gaps within a material barrier that is made of atoms? If so: What kinds of atoms, and how are the connected? How thick is the barrier, and what is the shape of the slits (again remembering that if the edge is made of atoms, it must be "fuzzy" too). If not: what is it made of???
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 19:03:27
I don't care what you call the experiment as long as you admit to no physicality in matter waves.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 15/06/2019 20:02:55
I don't care what you call the experiment as long as you admit to no physicality in matter waves.

I will admit no such thing.

I will admit that:
A) buckyballs, or electrons, or whatever, are neither particles nor waves...
B) ...but they exhibit both wave-like and particle-like properties.
C) And whatever they "actually are," they are physical entities, with properties we call mass, charge, momentum, etc.
D) wave functions are mathematical equations that describe the behavior of these particles—wave functions are not actual physical entities.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 20:06:17
::rolls eyes::
okay, so how do we get a scientist to do this test and shut you down?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 20:29:35
::rolls eyes::
okay, so how do we get a scientist to do this test and shut you down?
What would be different about doing the test today or doing it 20 years ago?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 20:32:16
You are suggesting the slits were smaller than the projectiles?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 20:58:18
Not exactly.
I invite you to consider the practicality of making such a grating.
All it needs to be is a regular array of things that are closer together than the size of a buckyball.

I think that experiment has been done- often.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 21:00:18
If so, you are blind to the real world.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 15/06/2019 21:16:59
If so, you are blind to the real world.

Then you are welcome to celebrate your clarity elsewhere and leave us to wallow in our ignorance.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 21:24:56
If so, you are blind to the real world.
There is none so blind as he who will not see.

And you don't see that , for example, the stainless steel vacuum chamber in which they do these sorts of experiments is a grating with a very small spacing.
It has crystals of metals that are regularly spaced ions  with gaps between them.

But I see you were far too busy thinking you were right to actually consider what I had said.

Now, what was that about being blinded to the real world?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 21:37:01
It's pretty pathetic when a guy, not even in your field, has to point this out.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 21:39:24
It's pretty pathetic when a guy, not even in your field, has to point this out.
Well, I don't know what your field is, but it's plainly not QM.
Mine is,, and I guess that's why I had to point it out to you.
The experiment has been done and the result is what you expect.
Big things seldom go through small holes.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 15/06/2019 21:42:48
I like seldom
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2019 22:03:59
A buckyball (being composed of sixty nuclei and hundreds of electrons) is highly unlikely to tunnel through any barrier.
That's nice, because you have heard it at least twice
highly unlikely to tunnel through any barrier

How likely depends on the barrier, the particle etc.

But the point remains, the experiment has been done- in effect, countless times.

Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 16/06/2019 01:14:47
Hey Joe... Why not drill a hole in a sheet of steel and throw house bricks at it? You could have a detector behind the steel sheet to detect the interference pattern. This is a sort of kitchen science experiment.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 16/06/2019 01:32:09
You and I both know there is a certain number of atoms always anchored to spacetime. Fight it all you want, this will be key to hoverboards/hovercars ..something I desperately want to witness in my lifetime.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 16/06/2019 01:34:09
OK Joe I have to apologise. I have misled you. You need to drill two holes in the steel sheet. Otherwise it isn't a double slit experiment.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 16/06/2019 01:46:39
Super clever, hope your comment makes the next documentary on the next generation of science.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 16/06/2019 02:04:10
You wanted an experiment where the slits were smaller than the projectiles. I gave you that. And now you complain! There is no pleasing some people.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/06/2019 08:57:46
Eddington pointed out about 100 years ago that if a student of physics fell through an intact floor and rematerialised in the room below, he would not consider it a miracle but merely one of the less probable solutions to a multivariable equation.

Alas, this obvious and profound observation seems not to have reached the elementary school syllabus yet, though it is plain that the regular contributors here understand it.  What baffles me is why those who don't, frequently accuse us of sharing their delusions.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/06/2019 09:33:39
You and I both know there is a certain number of atoms always anchored to spacetime.
Nobody knows that.
You imagine it and we listen fairly politely (then we go away and laugh behind your back).

In order to provide us with more comedy material, perhaps you would like to tell us what evidence you have for this... unorthodox... opinion?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: geordief on 16/06/2019 10:36:26
Eddington pointed out about 100 years ago that if a student of physics fell through an intact floor and rematerialised in the room below, he would not consider it a miracle but merely one of the less probable solutions to a multivariable equation.

Alas, this obvious and profound observation seems not to have reached the elementary school syllabus yet, though it is plain that the regular contributors here understand it.  What baffles me is why those who don't, frequently accuse us of sharing their delusions.
Is there a (exponentially remote) chance that the  student rematerializes slightly lacking in physical integrity  ?

Say ,for example with a finger slightly longer?

Are there some scenarios that might be impossible no matter how remotely possible?

Edit : is it a reasonable observation that any body, alive or inanimate , goes through spacetime "shedding" countless parts of itself from one moment to the next as  "quantum components"  disappear  for their own quantum reasons leaving the persisting macro body to sail on in its new overall state regardless of what is happening to that body at the macro level?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/06/2019 12:02:44
Anyone who remembers "The Fly" will recall the problems of reassembling atoms in their original order. Indeed the fact that a double slit transfer redistributes stuff into a transform of the slit convoluted with the incident beam, suggests that the probability of recombination in a recpognisable order is even less than Eddington implied. But that classic film ignored the fundamental conservation of matter - the fly could not be more massive than the original, nor could Bart Simpson, in the famous spoof remake, get any smaller.   So no long finger, unless some orther bit is sacrificed..
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: geordief on 16/06/2019 12:10:11
Anyone who remembers "The Fly" will recall the problems of reassembling atoms in their original order. Indeed the fact that a double slit transfer redistributes stuff into a transform of the slit convoluted with the incident beam, suggests that the probability of recombination in a recpognisable order is even less than Eddington implied. But that classic film ignored the fundamental conservation of matter - the fly could not be more massive than the original, nor could Bart Simpson, in the famous spoof remake, get any smaller.   So no long finger, unless some orther bit is sacrificed..

Perhaps just musing ,but is there a definition of "order" in the way you have just used it that applies to quantum mechanics in a way that is different (or the same as) to the way it is used in classical mechanics?

I imagine there might be spatial order and temporal order -or is there a fusion between the two?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/06/2019 15:10:46
Mitotic  replication of DNA depends on a rigid spatial order derived entirely from modelled adequately by quantum mechanics.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 16/06/2019 17:28:52
Observation is a property of spacetime. Stuff on our scale has never turned into a matter wave. There is a divide between spacetime and qm waves, apparently it's the number of atoms involved.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/06/2019 17:47:29
Observation is a property of spacetime. Stuff on our scale has never turned into a matter wave. There is a divide between spacetime and qm waves, apparently it's the number of atoms involved.
Is that, by any chance, an attempt at proof by loud assertion?
Or maybe you have... you know.. maybe... some evidence?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 16/06/2019 18:02:00
If matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent ..they are not physical they are waves of variables/information. The uncertainty principle is uncertain(fuzzy) because the objects has only been granted partial spacetime. Observation/Spacetime is what makes matter waves swap to physical objects. QM waves don't have time, gravity, or 3D. If QM waves are information the divide is how much information an object contains.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/06/2019 18:21:55
If matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent ..they are not physical they are waves of variables/information. The uncertainty principle is uncertain(fuzzy) because the objects has only been granted partial spacetime. Observation/Spacetime is what makes matter waves swap to physical objects. QM waves don't have time, gravity, or 3D. If QM waves are information the divide is how much information an object contains.
Pardon?

"If matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent ."...
  then sieves don't work.
But, they do.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 16/06/2019 18:39:05
Observation/Spacetime is what makes matter waves swap to physical objects. QM waves don't have time, gravity, or 3D. If QM waves are information the divide is how much information an object contains.
I did ask you to complywith our request not to post new theory in main physics section.
On this occasion we will move your thread, we probably wont be a generous next time.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 00:48:27
"If matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent ."...
  then sieves don't work.
But, they do.

Atoms bouncing off each other collapses their waves.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?cla
Post by: alancalverd on 17/06/2019 10:50:09
Mesoscopic objects obey newtonian mechanics because their summed probability wavefunction does not extend far beyond the classical object, as a fraction of the classical radius.

Imagine a hydrogen atom. Its effective radius is pretty much determined by Heisenberg. Now imagine a huge ball of frozen hydrogen. The indeterminacy of its radius is still that of one atom at the surface, because all the other particles' "fuzz balls" are random and thus sum to the classical volume of the object. 
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 13:03:14
The point of this thread is for objects larger than a single atom that can still swap to matter waves.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 17/06/2019 14:18:51
The point of this thread is for objects larger than a single atom that can still swap to matter waves.
They don’t swap. You are still trying to use your misunderstanding of behaviour models.
They don’t behave the way you think they do.

Atoms bouncing off each other collapses their waves.
Results will differ.
Be specific. Which atoms, which specific wave equations, what conditions are you assuming for the collisions.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/06/2019 14:59:47
There is no swapping. Mesoscopic objects just behave like VERY large numbers of atoms.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 19:12:31
Atoms bouncing off each other collapses their waves.
That doesn't even parse.

There's something you need to understand.
It has already been pointed out, but you have missed it.
Imagine making a grating with a gap between the "wires" that's a little bit smaller than the molecules you are using.

Classically, no particles will get through it.

QM and the uncertainty principle means that a few will. They will quantum tunnel through.

Here's the bit you don't understand.
If you take the grating and hammer it until the wires are squashed flat and there are no gaps so it becomes a metal foil then repeat the experiment...

More atoms will get through the foil even though it no longer has gaps in it. (In some circumstances)

Do you understand that?
 The probability of tunneling is related to the thickness of the barrier.
Hammering it flat makes it thinner and so it's more likely that atoms will tunnel through.

Obviously, with the grating destroyed, there's no diffraction pattern.

And the (smaller number of) atoms that went through the grating before  you hammered it flat would also show no clear diffraction pattern because, at that level, the atoms are not going through the gaps.

It's the same , classically, with light
You know the equation
d sin θ =  λ
Where lambda is the wavelength and d is the spacing
you can rewrite that as

sin θ =  λ /d
Well, if you make d smaller than lambda then you are trying to find an angle where sin theta is more than 1, but that's impossible.

Diffraction doesn't work if the wavelength is bigger  than the grating's spacing.
And, returning to QM, a particle can't be "smaller" than the associated wavelength.

So, you can't sensibly calculate a diffraction pattern for the the experiment you have proposed.

So there's no way to say whether the particles would follow it or not.
And, as has been pointed out before, you also can't measure it because, in practice big  things don't go through small holes.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 19:26:25
Why can't you grasp that tunneling is even more evidence that matter waves are not physical?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 17/06/2019 20:25:53
Why can't you grasp that tunneling is even more evidence that matter waves are not physical?
And why can't you grasp that tunneling (and uncertainty, and wave-particle duality, and zero point energy, and so on) are only indications that our macroscopic scale experience has little use on the molecular scale? It's not that the atoms and molecules are somehow non-physical (whatever that means), it's that the physics is different from what you think it should be!
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 20:34:10
Why can't you grasp that tunneling is even more evidence that matter waves are not physical?
What do you think "non physical" means?

In any event, if I want to calculate rates of tunneling, I solve the equations for the matter waves.
They may not be "physical" - whatever that means, but tunnelling is evidence that matter waves work as a model.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 20:40:35
I'm confident that a wave of information is sometimes capable of going through barriers.
I'm not trying to say any existing models are wrong. Only what they claim matter waves to be.
If you admit to them not being physical, it opens up my bigger theory of spacetime being separate from QM.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 17/06/2019 20:56:23
If you admit to them not being physical, it opens up my bigger theory of spacetime being separate from QM.

But QM isn't entirely separate from spacetime, whether viewed as particles or waves. MOST of it is inextricably linked.
Hints:
wavelength
distance between slits
decay time
etc.

As I have said previously, there ARE some aspects of QM that are not tied to spacetime, like spin, which instead should be thought of in "spin space"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics)
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/qmech/Quantum/node88.html
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 20:57:31
not being physical,
You keep failing to explain what you think that means.
Is that because you can't?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 21:02:44
Calm down, I should have wrote QM waves are separate from spacetime. Observation/Spacetime grants them partial physicality.

Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 17/06/2019 21:09:23
Not everyone on this forum is an expert, certainly not in all topics discussed here. However, some of the members posting in this thread (including myself) are very well educated in QM. You would do well to try to understand what we are saying. Based on the types of assertions and confusions you (pittsburghjoe) appear to be making, and the great degree of confidence you appear to be displaying, I suspect that you currently reside somewhere near the top of "Mt. Stupid" (https://www.theengineeringmanager.com/growth/mount-stupid/)


* Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 4.06.15 PM.png (127.11 kB . 990x690 - viewed 775 times)

Don't worry, it is possible to scale back down (and to the right side), but it's a very disconcerting climb...
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 17/06/2019 21:16:08
You don't get that this discovery never would have happened if I went to the same schooling as you. Apparently you guys are brainwashed to overlook what I'm pointing. If I sound confident, it's because I thought through this and truly believe it's something you academics should consider.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 21:37:11
I should have wrote QM waves are separate from spacetime. Observation/Spacetime grants them partial physicality.
Why?
Were you entering a "bad poetry" contest?

not being physical,
You keep failing to explain what you think that means.
Is that because you can't?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/06/2019 21:37:34
The stupidity graph is also diagnostic of Kruger-Dunning syndrome, whose sufferers display arrogance in direct proportion to their ignorance. I encounter it every day in Health and Safety Executive inspectors who do not read their own company handbook (ignorance) and then invent new "laws" (arrogance) in order to extract fees from their victims.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 21:38:57
You don't get that this discovery never would have happened if I went to the same schooling as you.
We get it...
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2019 21:39:50
I encounter it every day in Health and Safety Executive inspectors who do not read their own company handbook (ignorance) and then invent new "laws" (arrogance) in order to extract fees from their victims.
So, when you appealed, how did that go?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 17/06/2019 22:12:01
Atoms bouncing off each other collapses their waves.
That doesn't even parse.

There's something you need to understand.
It has already been pointed out, but you have missed it.
Imagine making a grating with a gap between the "wires" that's a little bit smaller than the molecules you are using.

Classically, no particles will get through it.

QM and the uncertainty principle means that a few will. They will quantum tunnel through.

Here's the bit you don't understand.
If you take the grating and hammer it until the wires are squashed flat and there are no gaps so it becomes a metal foil then repeat the experiment...

More atoms will get through the foil even though it no longer has gaps in it. (In some circumstances)

Do you understand that?
 The probability of tunneling is related to the thickness of the barrier.
Hammering it flat makes it thinner and so it's more likely that atoms will tunnel through.

Obviously, with the grating destroyed, there's no diffraction pattern.

And the (smaller number of) atoms that went through the grating before  you hammered it flat would also show no clear diffraction pattern because, at that level, the atoms are not going through the gaps.

It's the same , classically, with light
You know the equation
d sin θ =  λ
Where lambda is the wavelength and d is the spacing
you can rewrite that as

sin θ =  λ /d
Well, if you make d smaller than lambda then you are trying to find an angle where sin theta is more than 1, but that's impossible.

Diffraction doesn't work if the wavelength is bigger  than the grating's spacing.
And, returning to QM, a particle can't be "smaller" than the associated wavelength.

So, you can't sensibly calculate a diffraction pattern for the the experiment you have proposed.

So there's no way to say whether the particles would follow it or not.
And, as has been pointed out before, you also can't measure it because, in practice big  things don't go through small holes.


This is a real gem of a post. Joe, really, you need to read this thread through and absorb. Do you realise how much the tuition would be for this stuff? And you are getting it for free. Step away from the house bricks mate.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 15:55:18
If you admit to them not being physical, it opens up my bigger theory of spacetime being separate from QM.

But QM isn't entirely separate from spacetime, whether viewed as particles or waves. MOST of it is inextricably linked.
Hints:
wavelength
distance between slits
decay time
etc.

As I have said previously, there ARE some aspects of QM that are not tied to spacetime, like spin, which instead should be thought of in "spin space"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics)
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/qmech/Quantum/node88.html


all variables you list can propagate within matter waves
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 19/06/2019 16:47:16
If you admit to them not being physical, it opens up my bigger theory of spacetime being separate from QM.

But QM isn't entirely separate from spacetime, whether viewed as particles or waves. MOST of it is inextricably linked.
Hints:
wavelength
distance between slits
decay time
etc.

As I have said previously, there ARE some aspects of QM that are not tied to spacetime, like spin, which instead should be thought of in "spin space"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics)
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/qmech/Quantum/node88.html


all variables you list can propagate within matter waves
Precisely! You claimed that spacetime somehow doesn't apply to matter waves. I pointed out that these waves have properties that are inextricably linked to both space and time. Therefore.... these waves must exist in spacetime!
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 16:51:21
uh, yeah, they exist as variable waves, not physical. They propagate with their own rules that happen to be in the same xyz of spacetime.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 17:52:51
What do you think "non physical" means?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 17:55:27
for lack of a better term: ghosts
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 18:08:25
for lack of a better term: ghosts
So, not something that should be on a science forum then?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 18:11:07
If you describe a matter wave better than me you win a prize.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 18:34:06
If you describe a matter wave better than me you win a prize.
What would I get if I could describe it worse?
I ask because it seems more like an interesting challenge?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 18:42:16
It must be frustrating for you not to be able to prove this wrong. The strongest evidence I will have for this is Dark Energy existing before the big bang/spacetime. They don't know where Dark Energy came from, it makes sense for it to have been here all along.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 18:52:07
It must be frustrating for you not to be able to prove this wrong.
I can't prove that a ghost didn't do it.

That's not going to trouble me much, is it?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 18:52:41
They don't know where Dark Energy came from, it makes sense for it to have been here all along.
Nobody is pretending that it is new.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 18:55:33
A ghost did it, yeah, that's exactly what I've been saying ::roll eyes::
Okay, wait, everyone is already cool with something being here before the singularity?

..maybe "Dark Energy" is a better description than "Ghost"
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 19:08:35
Holy Sh!t, is that what QM waves are? Dark Energy?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 19:09:10
Holy Sh!t, is that what QM waves are? Dark Energy?
No.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 20:57:40
A compelling argument as always.
Dark Energy = QM Energy Waves
Dark Matter = QM Matter Waves
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2019 21:21:00
A compelling argument as always.
Dark Energy = QM Energy Waves
Dark Matter = QM Matter Waves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 19/06/2019 21:23:04
I showed you why I came to this conclusion. You people are impossible.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 01:29:00
Is Dark Matter showing us a limit to the power of observation? Pointing a telescope directly at it doesn't seem to collapse its waveform at all. Does that imply a distance or clarity (zoom) limitation to getting spacetime involved?

I would be worried if we find out earth is going to drift into a cloud of Dark Matter. What if our atmosphere is enough to decohere it? Would we suddenly have a metric ton worth of matter burning up in our atmosphere?

Does Dark Energy get stronger the longer it's unobserved?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 20/06/2019 08:10:30
......Pointing a telescope directly at it doesn't seem to collapse its waveform at all. Does that imply a distance or clarity (zoom) limitation to getting spacetime involved?
I don’t understand your reasoning. Is it associated with the use of ‘observed’ in the following?

Does Dark Energy get stronger the longer it's unobserved?
Are you misunderstanding the use of observed in QM? It doesn’t mean watched.

The only way we can ‘see’ dark matter is if it gives off radiation or absorbs radiation and it doesn’t seem to do either.
We can infer it’s pesence if it has an effect on nearby mass eg stars.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 12:59:43
If Dark Energy and Dark Matter are in a wave state, it means it is either special and will never change state or we just aren't close enough to measure it accurately ..trigger the swap from wave to physical.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 20/06/2019 14:11:26
If Dark Energy and Dark Matter are in a wave state, it means it is either special and will never change state or we just aren't close enough to measure it accurately ..trigger the swap from wave to physical.
We aren’t trying to, or doing anything, to make it change state.
As has been said before, waves are physical.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 14:20:34
Observing the path of a particle while in wave state would normally trigger it. Why do you think it's currently invisible to us? It makes sense for it be in wave format ..something we can't see. If waves are physical, then so is dark energy and dark matter.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: chiralSPO on 20/06/2019 14:58:43
..maybe "Dark Energy" is a better description than "Ghost"
Holy Sh!t, is that what QM waves are? Dark Energy?
A compelling argument as always.
Dark Energy = QM Energy Waves
Dark Matter = QM Matter Waves
I showed you why I came to this conclusion. You people are impossible.

"I don't understand X.
Scientists don't understand Y.
OMG X must be the same as Y!"

Not compelling in the least. Especially since scientists understand X, and can prove (in many different ways) that X and Y are not the same.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 15:26:47
You are setting yourself up to look like a jerk if any of this ends up being true. What if this becomes the goto thread for discovering what "Dark" is?

No one has convinced me that QM waves are physical/visible. You just hate new ideas from lowly code writers.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Colin2B on 20/06/2019 18:22:41
No one has convinced me that QM waves are physical/visible.
Light is visible and is a QM wave.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 18:38:25
You don't see light until it hits something (wave collapse), you are not seeing it while it's a wave.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/06/2019 19:03:39
I showed you why I came to this conclusion.
Where?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/06/2019 19:05:21
What if this becomes the goto thread for discovering what "Dark" is?
It can't happen.

Especially since scientists understand X, and can prove (in many different ways) that X and Y are not the same.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 19:13:28
If matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent ..they are not physical they are waves of variables/information (same goes for tunneling). The uncertainty principle is uncertain(fuzzy) because the objects has only been granted partial spacetime. Observation/Spacetime is what makes matter waves swap to physical objects. QM waves don't have time or 3D. If QM waves are information the divide is how much information an object contains.

If it's accepted that Dark Energy was here before the big bang ..then so did waves.

Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/06/2019 19:40:09
If it's accepted that Dark Energy was here before the big bang
It isn't.
f matter waves can pass a slit smaller than the object they represent
I'm not aware of anyone saying they can.
The uncertainty principle is uncertain(fuzzy) because the objects has only been granted partial spacetime.
That just doesn't make any sense.
QM waves don't have time or 3D
You can transform a wave function to give a real property of the object it represents- the best  known transform is that multiplication of psi by its complex conjugate gives a probability distribution.

Since those real properties- like probability distribution- are 3D objects, it figured that the wave is also 3D.

The problem here is that you haven't a godforsaken clue what you are talking about.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 19:52:14
waves hold the variables. Whatever, when Dark stuff comes up as waves, check back here.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/06/2019 20:18:04
waves hold the variables. Whatever, when Dark stuff comes up as waves, check back here.
OK, should we close the thread until then?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 20/06/2019 22:47:15
Are you claiming tunneling doesn't happen?

Dark Matter will be my undeniable proof that QM waves are invisible, not physical. We have energy waves literally everywhere and we don't see them in wave format. Why would we be able to see matter waves? You act like you would get a 3D object if you could grab a matter wave without collapsing it. You're the one with an active imagination. That wave holds the information for the object, I don't get how you can call a ghost (dark matter) physical.

The information in the wave is surely the same information addressed in the Information Paradox.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/06/2019 18:51:40
Are you claiming tunneling doesn't happen?
No.
I'm saying that, since tunnelling doesn't need "slits", it's irrelevant.

It would help if you actually read (and understood) what people have already said.

Atoms bouncing off each other collapses their waves.
That doesn't even parse.

There's something you need to understand.
It has already been pointed out, but you have missed it.
Imagine making a grating with a gap between the "wires" that's a little bit smaller than the molecules you are using.

Classically, no particles will get through it.

QM and the uncertainty principle means that a few will. They will quantum tunnel through.

Here's the bit you don't understand.
If you take the grating and hammer it until the wires are squashed flat and there are no gaps so it becomes a metal foil then repeat the experiment...

More atoms will get through the foil even though it no longer has gaps in it. (In some circumstances)

Do you understand that?
 The probability of tunneling is related to the thickness of the barrier.
Hammering it flat makes it thinner and so it's more likely that atoms will tunnel through.

Obviously, with the grating destroyed, there's no diffraction pattern.

And the (smaller number of) atoms that went through the grating before  you hammered it flat would also show no clear diffraction pattern because, at that level, the atoms are not going through the gaps.

It's the same , classically, with light
You know the equation
d sin θ =  λ
Where lambda is the wavelength and d is the spacing
you can rewrite that as

sin θ =  λ /d
Well, if you make d smaller than lambda then you are trying to find an angle where sin theta is more than 1, but that's impossible.

Diffraction doesn't work if the wavelength is bigger  than the grating's spacing.
And, returning to QM, a particle can't be "smaller" than the associated wavelength.

So, you can't sensibly calculate a diffraction pattern for the the experiment you have proposed.

So there's no way to say whether the particles would follow it or not.
And, as has been pointed out before, you also can't measure it because, in practice big  things don't go through small holes.


Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 21/06/2019 19:18:42
You are telling me something physical is able to go through a barrier.
Tell me why you think you can feel a ghost.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2019 01:16:15
You are telling me something physical is able to go through a barrier.
I'm not telling you that.
Reality is telling you that.
Tunnelling is real.
It's the mechanism for alpha decay and the way these things work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope
and a stack of other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling


The observations tell you that "something physical is able to go through a barrier".
You don't have to listen, but, if reality does not agree with your viewpoint, it is not because reality has made a mistake.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2019 01:16:56
Tell me why you think you can feel a ghost.
That's just dross you made up.
Why do you do that?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 22/06/2019 01:24:45
I'm pointing out that you think matter waves are physical. Get real!
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2019 01:30:24
you think matter waves are physical
I can't say whether I think they  are "physical" or not, because I'm still waiting for you to say what you think that means.

However, tunnelling is real.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 22/06/2019 01:32:54
Let's go with ..physical means you can touch it.
If tunneling is real, then waves are able to penetrate barriers
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2019 11:55:51
If tunneling is real, then waves are able to penetrate barriers
Yes- that's the point. The wave function doesn't suddenly drop to zero at  the surface of a barrier, it penetrates slightly into it.
So it will still have a non-zero value on "the other side" of a sufficiently thin barrier.

It would really help if you went and learned some science.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 22/06/2019 13:06:22
Hey Joe, where you goin' with that brick in your hand?

Da da da da daaaa

Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that brick in your hand?
Alright.
I'm goin down to shoot my old theory
You know I caught it messin' 'round with another theorist.
I'm goin' down to shoot my old theory
You know I caught it messin' 'round with another man.

Da da da da, da da da da, da da da da, da da da da, da da, de da de da daaa
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 22/06/2019 13:39:50
Not forgetting the guitar solo.
https://onpracticingguitar.chrisbottaguitar.com/2015/05/jimi-hendrix-hey-joe-solo-analysis.html
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: jeffreyH on 23/06/2019 03:45:49
Now if Joe was here he would realise that vibrating strings cause waves. Sound waves. These are physical in the sense that they affect the air molecules. Propagating through this medium.

Not at all like matter waves.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 29/06/2019 20:12:33
My argument is that matter waves are not physical ..why would I care that they are not mechanical in the traditional sense? What was the point you were trying to make?
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 29/06/2019 20:56:56
Turns out Entanglement display's non-physicality also. When two particles are entangled ..they remain that way while they are still waves ..the waves are connected to the particles no matter how far apart you separate them. You can even separate them between solid spacetime objects.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: pittsburghjoe on 29/06/2019 23:24:39
If we could mod the variables of a matter wave, we would have absolute control of our reality.
We need to know how observation through spacetime converts qm waves to be physical.

Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/06/2019 09:28:42
If we could mod the variables of a matter wave, we would have absolute control of our reality.
So, if we could change the way the universe works, we could change the way the universe works.

Gosh!

Nice video though.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/06/2019 11:40:06
I encounter it every day in Health and Safety Executive inspectors who do not read their own company handbook (ignorance) and then invent new "laws" (arrogance) in order to extract fees from their victims.
So, when you appealed, how did that go?
It's easier just to point out their errors. The sensible ones drop the case and learn. The arrogant ones get promoted.
Title: Re: How will buckyballs fired at a double slit behave?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/06/2019 13:23:54
Safety Executive inspectors who do not read their own company handbook
Which one is the "company  handbook"?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/index.htm