Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Technology => Topic started by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 03:46:58

Title: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 03:46:58
Hi,

This oscilloscope - the SainSmart DSO202 Digital Storage Oscilloscope - has at least 2 channels (probes). Would it be possible to get a combined XY display from it, using a sonic source, such as a WAV recording, directly input, or using a microphone please?

There are Tube videos for this unit but they all use one channel, giving fairly static wave form displays.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SainSmart-Portable-Handheld-Digital-Oscilloscope/dp/B00SXVUETU/ref=pd_day0_hl_328_4/258-6073984-1645621?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B074QBQNB7&pd_rd_r=b0666b90-955d-11e9-9b9d-73994d59d5a6&pd_rd_w=0Gjxg&pd_rd_wg=wWKCJ&pf_rd_p=92d624bb-a334-423e-8722-8024dd09667f&pf_rd_r=Y0EDYDCTFJ0XKXGVK28G&refRID=Y0EDYDCTFJ0XKXGVK28G&th=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/SainSmart-Portable-Handheld-Digital-Oscilloscope/dp/B00SXVUETU/ref=pd_day0_hl_328_4/258-6073984-1645621?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B074QBQNB7&pd_rd_r=b0666b90-955d-11e9-9b9d-73994d59d5a6&pd_rd_w=0Gjxg&pd_rd_wg=wWKCJ&pf_rd_p=92d624bb-a334-423e-8722-8024dd09667f&pf_rd_r=Y0EDYDCTFJ0XKXGVK28G&refRID=Y0EDYDCTFJ0XKXGVK28G&th=1)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Colin2B on 23/06/2019 08:22:38
It would need an x input sometimes labeled external timebase. There would also be a switch to change from internal timebase to external - often on the timebase selector.

By the way, I have vague recollections of someone making a box to display lissajous figures on a tv. Might be worth investigating.

PS I’m moving this to technology because it isn’t really a physics question
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/06/2019 10:29:04
It's probably worth posting the question on youtube where you can be sure it will be seen by someone who owns the kit.

As far as I can judge, the 'scope has open source code and I can't see why it's not possible to have an x vs y display if someone wrote the code for it.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 14:18:49
It's probably worth posting the question on youtube where you can be sure it will be seen by someone who owns the kit.

As far as I can judge, the 'scope has open source code and I can't see why it's not possible to have an x vs y display if someone wrote the code for it.

Thanks, am struggling - I'm a visual artist, I use technology. May have found a work-around. I can use a graticule oscilloscope as long as I disguise the detail optically; through experiment I can do this. For XY display (using any oscilloscope which has XY channels) I attach CH1 probe to the left stereo-out jack & CH2 to the right. In theory this should give me a dynamic XY Graph display but please correct me with regard to the dual probes if I am mistaken.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/06/2019 15:15:37
If (and only if) the 'scope has a setting where it uses one channel as the x axis (rather than the usual setting where time is used as the x axis).
Most of the 'scopes I have used will do that.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: alancalverd on 23/06/2019 15:18:03
It will do the job if the scope has XY display facility. Picoscope and Hantek definitely do, and as I think I remarked earlier, Pico have been generous in the past with software help and mods, so should be no problem getting rid of the graticule and displaying on as large a screen as you like. 

Other DSO systems are available - these are the only two I have used personally, and I've had less success with Hantek software mods.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 15:44:54
It will do the job if the scope has XY display facility. Picoscope and Hantek definitely do, and as I think I remarked earlier, Pico have been generous in the past with software help and mods, so should be no problem getting rid of the graticule and displaying on as large a screen as you like. 

Thanks, so Picoscope looks like the way to go, I hadn't considered 'scopes might not have an XY facility :-o

Have seen a GW Instek Oscilloscope with the following specifications. Does this confirm the XY display facility I need please?

"X-Y MODE X-Axis Input / Y-Axis Input X-Y MODE: Channel 1 / Channel 2"
"Phase Shift: 3 at 100kHz."

Thanks.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/06/2019 15:59:49
I think it does, but why not just ask the manufacturer?
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 16:06:49
I think it does, but why not just ask the manufacturer?

Will try that - it's an old 'scope though (second-hand).
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 23/06/2019 16:23:40
It will do the job if the scope has XY display facility. Picoscope and Hantek definitely do...should be no problem getting rid of the graticule and displaying on as large a screen as you like. 

Just fallen in - so Pico actually uses the pc as its monitor screen?

Blurb says: "With the PicoScope 2000 Series... XY mode are all included in the price."

https://www.picotech.com/download/datasheets/PicoScope2200.pdf (https://www.picotech.com/download/datasheets/PicoScope2200.pdf)

So that means I could go in for a basic Pico Technology PicoScope 2204A USB Oscilloscope, new or second-hand, just as long as it gives me an XY display, removable graticule an added bonus.

Can find no email contact for this firm only phone, but the blurb is there. Sadly no Tube video shows the Pico XY Graph being used but the specs confirm it is there.

Pico would suit, I'm not meant to lift or carry at the moment, so it would be ideal.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: alancalverd on 23/06/2019 22:39:29
Indeed, Pico, Hantek and other serious professional DSO plug-ins use a PC for control and display. The nice thing is that if you are serious about an art/entertainment installation, you can use the PC slave display output to drive a damn great projector.

Lissajous figures from raw stereo music are likely to be very messy but Pico software includes all sorts of filters, so you may be able to isolate the bass for a cleaner picture.

Funny how life has got more complicated and simpler at the same time. The old BBC "Tomorrow's World" introductory sequence (1965) had the music displayed on an analog scope and  captured on cine film - it probably took about 20 minutes to rig the whole take, from stuff just lying around in every recording studio!
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Colin2B on 23/06/2019 23:02:45
I did wonder why you had rejected Pico as it seems ideal. Iknow some people dislike the quantisation of the levels, but the pico has enough resolution for what you need.
Like Alan I’ve used one of these - still have one in the spares box - and can agree with him that they are excellent tools.
Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: alancalverd on 24/06/2019 11:56:33
Can find no email contact for this firm only phone, but the blurb is there.
Recommend using the "chat" tab on their website - they are very helpful when it's active.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 24/06/2019 13:53:36
Indeed, Pico, Hantek and other serious professional DSO plug-ins use a PC for control and display. The nice thing is that if you are serious about an art/entertainment installation, you can use the PC slave display output to drive a damn great projector.

Lissajous figures from raw stereo music are likely to be very messy but Pico software includes all sorts of filters, so you may be able to isolate the bass for a cleaner picture.

Funny how life has got more complicated and simpler at the same time. The old BBC "Tomorrow's World" introductory sequence (1965) had the music displayed on an analog scope and  captured on cine film - it probably took about 20 minutes to rig the whole take, from stuff just lying around in every recording studio!

Thanks Alan, Colin, et al,

Am sorted for now, found an online scope & have corresponded with the author, but I may also go in for the Pico because it sounds so very flexible. I'm an amateur musician when not being an artist, you simply cannot get decent visualisation software, 'old-school' was coloured oil on water on OHP's, I have actually done that in the past but it's really a 'live' operation, it's not tailored to the pop video. The crucial thing is synching the visual to the sound, hence my interest in the oscilloscope. Windows do author some type of visualisation but only for 'aps', however I want to build my own. There is pc visualisation software out there but it is dire, forcing you to use other people's imagery 'by default', truly awful. The BBC were inspirational back in the day, like the music + visuals for the original Dr Who series.  Funnily enough I also use cine film myself - as art, the entire filming process to me is art, whereas I use digital video as a tool, I dislike mixing the two.

Re. Pico, also a geek - so tinkering with stereo leads & probes appeals :)

Many thanks again.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: Colin2B on 24/06/2019 14:39:07
I'm an amateur musician when not being an artist, you simply cannot get decent visualisation software,
Takes me back to my early teenage when I made a sound to light unit. Different coloured lights for each frequency band.

Re. Pico, also a geek - so tinkering with stereo leads & probes appeals :)
As Alan says “Lissajous figures from raw stereo music are likely to be very messy”. You are basically creating vectorscope which is very useful in recording as you can see the phase relationship between the channels and monitor the effects of limiting.
Title: Re: Will this 2-probe oscilloscope produce an XY display?
Post by: kr236rk on 24/06/2019 16:20:44
I'm an amateur musician when not being an artist, you simply cannot get decent visualisation software,
Takes me back to my early teenage when I made a sound to light unit. Different coloured lights for each frequency band.

Amazing :) I could not do that as an adult let alone as a teenager :-o I was always impressed with the Windows Media Player visualisations but I think Windows has dispensed with all that in Windows 10? Am not technical, my geekiness extends to plugging plugs into sockets 'to see what happens' and mercifully the current involved in most music-making hardware is user-friendly, I always err on the side of caution however :)

Re. Pico, also a geek - so tinkering with stereo leads & probes appeals :)
Quote
As Alan says “Lissajous figures from raw stereo music are likely to be very messy”. You are basically creating vectorscope which is very useful in recording as you can see the phase relationship between the channels and monitor the effects of limiting.

Never heard of a vectorscope, many thanks for that. All I'm really reaching for just now is the 'pulse' of the music, since you can't really do that in retrospect. Can't wait to fade some oscilloscope into my video, it will mean creating a musically synched  'scope video' to form the basis for all the other parts which are added onto it. Long-term though, I am recovering from a routine procedure so must take things steady - one of the reasons I left off picking up an old analogue 'scope, some of them are quite heavy - the virtual age has its advantages!  :D