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General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: davidwilliams on 25/06/2019 11:45:15

Title: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: davidwilliams on 25/06/2019 11:45:15
Why hasn't science been able to prove the existence of God? I was A2A on a question about turning into an atheist at 13 years of age. It bothered me deeply and I came to question my own beliefs. I'm at a crossroad. Help me through logical answers.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/06/2019 18:53:58
Why hasn't science been able to prove the existence of God?
One reasonable possibility is that He doesn't exist.
Also, because religion cheats.
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/6-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/matthew/4-7.htm
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: evan_au on 25/06/2019 22:53:46
Quote from: davidwilliams
I'm at a crossroad. Help me through logical answers.
This is a bit more specific than the general question, but you could have a look at:
Evidence That Demands A Verdict: Life-changing Truth For A Skeptical World
by Josh McDowell & Sean McDowell

PS: This probably belongs in the "Just Chat" section...
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/06/2019 00:05:23
First, determine what you mean by God. Then decide what you would consider proof of existence. Now look for that proof. Or, if you want to be scientific, look for disproof.

So far, I haven't come across anyone whose definition and chosen proof have stood up to scrutiny.   

You could postulate "somebody must be in charge of everything" which may not be disprovable, but he's clearly not on the side of homo sapiens, so I'm an antitheist.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 26/06/2019 21:08:37
If there is a god who is omnipotent then it doesn't manifest its power. Newton's laws show that nothing is moved out of place without a very reasonable explanation. The laws of Newton would be broken every time god acted. Find the action without a cause and you find god
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 28/06/2019 17:39:13
First, determine what you mean by God. Then decide what you would consider proof of existence. Now look for that proof. Or, if you want to be scientific, look for disproof.

So far, I haven't come across anyone whose definition and chosen proof have stood up to scrutiny.   


God the old guy sat in a chair that can do anything has similarities with many religions, and is clearly bollocks.

Religion makes the concept of god external to the person, allowing priests popes schizophrenics(see old testament) etc to speak on behalf of god and tell people what to do, organising societies, etc.

God the creator has similarities with Big Bang, in the beginning there was light. Playing with this idea and for the purposes of argument, and shear boredom. I would define god as being the universe, with everything in it being a part of said god. This god would be an automaton, responding only to external inputs, and abiding by the laws of physics etc.

The universe clearly exists so by my definition, god is proven to exist. DOH



Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2019 18:15:02
God the creator has similarities with Big Bang
And one noteworthy difference.
The big bang has evidence.
I would define god as being the universe
OK,
If we can redefine words in order to make  things the way we want them, I propose to redefine "God" too.

God is a pair of whole numbers A and B with no common factor such that A^2 divided by B^2 is exactly two.

The nice thing about this definition is that it allows me to prove that God does not exist
For example
https://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/proof_square_root_2_irrational.php

The problem is it's obviously a laughable definition, but... that doesn't seem to be a problem here
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 29/06/2019 09:45:00
God the creator has similarities with Big Bang
And one noteworthy difference.
The big bang has evidence.
I would define god as being the universe
OK,
If we can redefine words in order to make  things the way we want them, I propose to redefine "God" too.


God is a pair of whole numbers A and B with no common factor such that A^2 divided by B^2 is exactly two.

The nice thing about this definition is that it allows me to prove that God does not exist
For example
https://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/proof_square_root_2_irrational.php

The problem is it's obviously a laughable definition, but... that doesn't seem to be a problem here

You might be even more bored than me.

Yes, the big bang claims to have evidence, but it does not constitute incontrovertible proof of the big bang, it is just a theory that will never have incontrovertible proof. The creation of all the matter in the universe in fractions of a second in some hot big bang, is less plausible than Hoyles ideas happening more slowly over an eternity, with no beginning of time. The genesis jackanory creation story taking 7 days could equally cite as evidence, the universe as it stands today. Evidence does not constitute proof.

God as a pair of whole numbers, is smaller than the universe as a god, with us just being a constituent part of said god. We could always assume the sun is god like what the Romans did. Again the sun exists, and is therefore  evidence of this version of god.

As Alan noted, the problem with the concept of god is in the definition. Some religions don't require a god, see Buddhism. Others don't seem to define said god, but just insist it exists. Jehovas witnesses for example when asked to define what god is never come back  ;)

The universe is god, is not a new concept, its called Pantheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism. Science just tries to understand the mind of said god. :) The universe exists, therefore Pantheist god exists.   ;D

Whole numbers also exist, so your definition of god also works, but they are just a small part of the Pantheist god. This would also apply to some rock star or football player, or egyptian priest reverred as a god. They are all just small parts of the eternal Hoyle universe, that did not start 14 billion years ago, in some laughable (according to Hoyle) big bang.


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2019 11:06:38
Yes, the big bang claims to have evidence,
No, it actually has evidence.

but it does not constitute incontrovertible proof
How fortunate, then, that nobody said it was.
The creation of all the matter in the universe in fractions of a second in some hot big bang, is less plausible than Hoyles ideas happening more slowly over an eternity, with no beginning of time.
No.
Because the big bang doesn't conflict with Olber's paradox, but the continuous generation idea does.

Also, with continuous generation you need some sort of pan universal time keeper to make sure that "new matter" is made at the right rate.
I can see you contemplating  calling that "God".
The genesis jackanory creation story taking 7 days could equally cite as evidence, the universe as it stands today
Not really.
Genesis  doesn't make sense.
"And the evening and the morning were the third day."
But the first  and second days must have had mornings and evenings- that's pretty much the definition of "day".

But the  failings of bronze age goat herders' myths aren't important here.
The universe exists, therefore Pantheist god exists.
Least useful tautology since "brexit means brexit".
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 29/06/2019 11:37:16
WTF

The thread is about can science prove the existence of god. This depends on definition of said god. Your god is clearly an absolute belief in the hot big bang theory whereby you take as incontrovertible proof the CBR. The CBR could equally be evidence for a cold slower beginning to the universe. Once the temperature rises to about 2.75K cold baryogenesis ceases  ;) The only reason Hoyles ideas ended is because he popped his clogs and did not have a viable explanation for the CBR. The idea is not completely dead.

The fact of the matter is the universe exists, and has evolved to what it is today. From the pantheist point of view this is evidence for the pantheist god, which answers the question can science prove the existence of god. ie The definition of god depends on how god is defined from the Pantheist viewpoint you are already a part of god.

If you chose to have a god as an imaginary character that left no historical evidence and most likely never actually existed, not mentioning any names, that is up to you. You can take the born again religious view and invite said being into your life or accept a Pantheist viewpoint. If you want a god have one, define it how you like, if it is an object, it can be proven to exist, if it is imaginery it cant be proven to exist.

Like Alan wrote above proving the existence of god depends on the definition. :)


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2019 12:28:36
proving the existence of god depends on the definition.
And redefining it as a means to answer the question is pointless.

If I choose a definition that makes God exist then He exists.
If I choose a definition that makes Him not exist, then He doesn't exist.
So what?
Neither option actually tells us anything.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 30/06/2019 10:22:20
proving the existence of god depends on the definition.
And redefining it as a means to answer the question is pointless.

If I choose a definition that makes God exist then He exists.
If I choose a definition that makes Him not exist, then He doesn't exist.
So what?
Neither option actually tells us anything.

That is the point, people that believe in a god do not generally have a plausible definition of the god they believe in, they just believe one must exist, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

People in general like to believe in things and be part of a community, regardless of evidence to the contrary, or different interpretations of claimed evidence.

Communities/societies built around a religious belief which is self reinforcing, and likely imprinted into peoples subconscious at an early age. These communities have leaders who reinforce the belief. Groups of people working together are often more succesful than individuals, who do not believe what they are told.

Speculation
If we take a ficticious character as a god with no supporting evidence other than the word of an emperor from a failing empire, with multiple religions and beliefs. We might form a council with all the religious leaders from different groups and arrive at a common acceptable religion based on the common religious ideas at that time. We might enforce the religion by nailing disbelievers to crosses or feeding them to lions etc. Cerca 325AD end of Roman empire, Emperor Constantine convened a council to form a new religion, to control his empire. He was a sun worshipper why would his new religion not have festivals based on equinoxes? Does the Roman empire still exert an influence today via its religion?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 07/07/2019 21:21:19
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/07/2019 21:52:35
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
No.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 10/07/2019 17:38:34
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.

Define what your god is?

Is it maybe the quantum vacuum, zero point energy, dark energy, dark ???? ?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 10/07/2019 17:45:51
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
No.
Please define your understanding of god, that enables you to answer No.

God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared. (in a big bang related sort of way, creating all of life in the universe ;) )
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 10/07/2019 18:22:23
Does the Roman empire still exert an influence today via its religion?
Philistines, Romans, the Inquisition, Communism, Fascism, even the British Empire....all came and went. We're still here. And, if modern-day antisemites are to be believed, we're still in charge of everything. The answer seems to be in having a faith that doesn't seek to convert or conquer others, or even argue very loudly for our precepts. It would be nice to be ignored for a few thousand years, but as Topol pointed out "If you look at a map, Israel is about the size of Yorkshire. If you look at a newspaper, it's bigger than Russia."   
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/07/2019 21:22:49
This god apparently caused the big bang then. OK. Well let's work with that conclusion. For billions of years mankind didn't exist. This dude, or dudette, who is all powerful, just didn't bother to use his or her supreme powers to do much at all for most of the time. What then? The supreme one just got bored?

Or maybe, using Occam's razor, life was a slow and incremental process that just took that long to develop. Still, maybe I am now damned to an eternity in eternal suffering. I doubt it.

The only real miracle is that we haven't destroyed ourselves yet.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 11/07/2019 23:01:23
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Yahya A.Sharif on 12/07/2019 10:09:20
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 12/07/2019 13:31:14
The only real miracle is that we haven't destroyed ourselves yet.

I suspect that has more to do with good luck, or not as the case may be  ;)

Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 12/07/2019 13:35:17
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Where does your god come from? what is it?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/07/2019 18:53:38
God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared.
Or God might be defined as a cucumber.
But that too, would be silly.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:25:39
God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared.
Or God might be defined as a cucumber.
But that too, would be silly.

What would make a cucumber god any different to any other god.

The great god cucumber could be used in skin treatments, and reward the worshipper with soft skin perhaps.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:28:10
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Ive got it, your gods a mathematician, in the beginning there was the HUP.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:31:23
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?

Your god is male then, and decides to be merciful or not as the case me be. Does this version of god respond to random events like a automaton.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Faltuh on 23/07/2019 04:59:31
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?
yes i think so
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 26/07/2019 07:12:33
Why is life the only singularity ever detected?  Life is NOT natural.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/07/2019 09:36:51
Why is life the only singularity ever detected?
Life is not a singularity, so your question makes no sense.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 28/07/2019 08:53:32
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?
yes i think so

Should you have said yes I feel so, because you feel not think a god of some sorts exists. If you cant describe what your god is, then likely you dont know what it is you believe in.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 09/08/2019 12:44:05
God does not need time to exist in. Reminds me of the Tardis. God created the laws of the universe and so when he acts the laws are used, not contradicted. God wants us in this world and life in the Universe, to have faith, confidence, hope, rather than knowledge with proof. It is a nursery and testing ground. And something has gone wrong, with the premature introduction of knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge and proof is good for making tools and medicines..

You can have evidence and personal proof of Christ presence... In the Holy Spirit gifts and powers.

The universe is not self existent. I am not sure if it reasons.

Faith is necessary for dealing with knowledge and revelations... sometimes they are of very developed realities. Life reviews during near death experiences, visions of a city, with pearl gates....

For example, my late granma right up until she died was misled to think that Germany was only defending itself in WW2 and that the Jews had been rioting... I do not think she understood the holocaust. She was educated up to grade school before her father could not afford to send her to high school. Now if being so impressed by Germany she would not believe evidence that Hitler was Jewish in part and a hater. That there had been ambition in the Nazis to invade and not believe that the mass graves were real, even if God showed her images. Then how could she come to a knowledge of reality?

In this world we have evidences and proofs, books, images, reasoning and actual sites and the physical facts to manipulate in our hands and eyes. That is slow. In God is the promise of all wisdom and knowledge flowing through our minds like a waterfall when we die and enter the light. Not believing it is an option and a little blasphemy. When will someone ever believe or doubt a vision from God? Or verses from God?

It is possible some people can lock themselves out from believing God.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 10/08/2019 11:49:57
And something has gone wrong
How could anything go wrong in the creation of an omnipotent, omniscient being who set the specification in the first place, and has the unmitigated power to put it right? 

You will be telling us next that the god who created earthquakes and congenital syphilis is just and merciful.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/08/2019 12:35:01
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Why? We ask why is that constant just so and this constant just so in order for us to exist? Why shouldn't it be just so? The sky looks blue. Why is the atmosphere constituted from molecules that scatter light in such a way that the sky looks blue? If it wasn't just so the sky may be red. So what? Such arguments are nonsense and show the immaturity of our species.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/08/2019 12:37:45
And BTW all the grown ups lied to you as a kid. Just because the grown ups did the same to them when they were children. Does that sound like maturity.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/08/2019 15:52:37
After the people had dominion things went wrong. This life is for testing and working dominion and faith. We have intervention when we ask or permit. The cross of Christ is the intervention. It is worked out slowly impressing understanding into human culture.

I suppose God made earthquakes, this would have come under our dominion. We lost dominion. Christ has dominion to restore us in his kingdom yet to fully rule on Earth. But God did not make diseases.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: syhprum on 10/08/2019 19:27:31
I think god really loves viruses and only created humans and other mammals as a convenient environment for them to evolve in. 
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/08/2019 20:15:50
After the people had dominion things went wrong.
The real problem is that God saw fit to put the serpent in the garden.
So, it's all His fault.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 11/08/2019 14:02:30
The serpent and tree of knowledge of good and evil was for the Adamic race to gain the ability to always free willing choose good amidst the choice of evil.

The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed and not placed there. An agreement was probably reached beforehand. Adam could have taken authority and gained a nature of obedience and reverence with it's endearing. He would have had dominion over the whole planet.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 11/08/2019 15:50:01
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Why? We ask why is that constant just so and this constant just so in order for us to exist? Why shouldn't it be just so? The sky looks blue. Why is the atmosphere constituted from molecules that scatter light in such a way that the sky looks blue? If it wasn't just so the sky may be red. So what? Such arguments are nonsense and show the immaturity of our species.
You are implying the laws of Physics, which is how God makes things work, whether it be an electron orbiting the nuclues of an atom or the roots taking up mineral ions.
Besides, we may be 98% genetically similar to apes, but no linkage has been discovered between us an apes (nor will it be) because God created man in the image of Adam.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 11/08/2019 18:01:55
God created apes and man from a common root in matter or only in design.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 17/08/2019 00:57:56
Science can't even get physical reality right.........why would you think that they could concept God?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:22:57
.why would you think that they could concept God?
"concept" is not a verb.
Would you like to try again, but this time with a requirement that you post stuff that actually  makes sense to the real world?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:23:39
God created apes and man
Do you understand that man is an ape?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:25:47
to gain the ability to always free willing choose
... and in English?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:26:41
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed
Do you work for ATOS?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:31:35
An agreement was probably
There's nothing which inspires confidence like  a "God" that "probably" does something.
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed and not placed there.
I challenge you  to demonstrate that your assertion can be parsed in English.
Adam could have taken authority and gained a nature of obedience and reverence with it's endearing.
Ditto.
Did it occur to you that posting nonsense on a science we site will (at best) get you laughed at?
He would have had dominion over the whole planet.
If the fairy tale is right, he had already been granted that.
What did you think  you added there?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:26:31
God created apes and man
Do you understand that man is an ape?
I just checked and see you are correct.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:35:27
to gain the ability to always free willing choose
... and in English?
The first humans had to use free will. They had to be exposed to evil, while free willing, to free willingly choose obedience and stay in the light of life. Rather than be forced or protected from the knowledge of it. Over time, human nature would have become resistant to making evil choices.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:36:55
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed
Do you work for ATOS?
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:41:32
The first humans could have kept their dominion. They and we today would have dominion over the whole planet, in regards to natural events.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 12:29:38
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Then why did God create Satan?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 13:38:20
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Then why did God create Satan?
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion. So he chose from the options one that would be finite, least successful and final. Finally finished. Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind, the angel led a rebellion seeking to have God's throne and power rather than worshipping him. They were expelled and became the angels of death.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 13:49:53
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 15:22:58
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
The angel was extremely intelligent, and proud. He went from worshipping God for his greatness to wanting to have it. Immense pride, jealousy, ambition, something like adultery, taking the worship of the rebellious angels... God saw it coming and chose the best of the options.

Satan and his cohorts were expelled, much weaker than God. Not as intelligent and weak at creativity, the angel of death imitates God or remembers works of old.

Some people worship money, some pleasure... but whatever it is, it is what seems to be worth the most to you that you see and feel is the source of good in your life.

Other Christians hold that God has a hidden purpose for evil.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: xitisoha on 19/08/2019 19:42:30
You are the part of god :)
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 06/09/2019 23:37:51
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
The angel was extremely intelligent, and proud. He went from worshipping God for his greatness to wanting to have it. Immense pride, jealousy, ambition, something like adultery, taking the worship of the rebellious angels... God saw it coming and chose the best of the options.

Satan and his cohorts were expelled, much weaker than God. Not as intelligent and weak at creativity, the angel of death imitates God or remembers works of old.

Some people worship money, some pleasure... but whatever it is, it is what seems to be worth the most to you that you see and feel is the source of good in your life.

Other Christians hold that God has a hidden purpose for evil.
Do you believe that only christian god exists? What do you think about gods of other religions? Can they coexist?
If you can find a method to proof  that they also exist, you can be a pantheist.
On the other hand, if your method concludes that they don't exist, try using it to your own god. You may become an atheist.
If your method doesn't give you any conclusion, you may become an agnostic. But you can find a better method which is not useless.
If your method can prove the existence of your god while disproving other gods reliably, you can try your luck by sharing your method here. You may convert someone into your religion.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/09/2019 14:10:58
If we look back to the earliest gods, that of Genesis, Elohim, Moses YHWH based on Elohim. And Look at the story of Pandora's Box, and India's first god, Purusha. There is a commonality. The angels of Purusha that rebelled were said to break up Purusha into other gods, with the female principle, and then the threeness of the Hindu Trinity, creator destroyer. To me the latter are half truths. So there is only one god, whose presence fills the universe, he is all seeing, the Earth is his footstool, his presence fills the Earth, in him is also femininity and threeness. A benevolent nature. Looking here at Hinduism at the start. I do not believe in many gods. Or an overpowering greatness of rebellious angels.

Only one God revealed Himself in history, with a greater nature of love than any gods in mythology.  Only one answers the great challenges of sickness, sin which is also injustice, selfishness and unclean. And death. Making a way back to the friendship between Elohim and Adam and better.
[/quote]
Do you believe that only christian god exists? What do you think about gods of other religions? Can they coexist?
If you can find a method to proof  that they also exist, you can be a pantheist.
On the other hand, if your method concludes that they don't exist, try using it to your own god. You may become an atheist.
If your method doesn't give you any conclusion, you may become an agnostic. But you can find a better method which is not useless.
If your method can prove the existence of your god while disproving other gods reliably, you can try your luck by sharing your method here. You may convert someone into your religion.
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Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 10/09/2019 14:24:51
To me the latter are half truths.
How do you determine which part is true, while the other is false?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/09/2019 14:26:45
To me the latter are half truths.
How do you determine which part is true, while the other is false?
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 11/09/2019 16:13:10
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
How do you know moses?
How do you know that the stories about him are true?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 07:16:49
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
How do you know moses?
How do you know that the stories about him are true?

Moses is impressed in history as a well educated law maker and nation maker. There are examples of archaeological evidence of the displacement of people who ate pork in Israel or what was Israel. Things like sites where there were pork bones and pottery of one type, replaced by lamb bones and a new type of pottery during the Exodus period.

There are the Dead Sea Scrolls as evidence of the book being faithfully transcribed, the Torah.

I had a vision of Moses.

Moses is endorsed in the Gospel with checks about hard heartedness. I believe in Moses because of Jesus and aspects of Moses' law fit in my natural judgement and my cultural learning, like marrying your girlfriend if you make her pregnant...

Moses best documented the Genesis account of creation and put together the old traditions with new revelations in God's presence, which is a constant theme throughout the Bible and all writings from YHWH. No love and presence, no YHWH and the gentiles under Paul the apostle, their faith rested in power as well as the earlier two. I have experienced touches of these things. The state of my conscience changing to clear, and a clean heart, also secret thoughts revealed and seeing others and hearing their testimonies of the same sorts of things being done in them.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 07:35:59
Moses is impressed in history
Really?
Can you show me a contemporary independent reference to show that he even existed?
I had a vision of Moses.
Your hallucinations don't constitute evidence.
Have you spoken to your doctor about them?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 09:15:16
Moses is impressed in history
Really?
Can you show me a contemporary independent reference to show that he even existed?
I had a vision of Moses.
Your hallucinations don't constitute evidence.
Have you spoken to your doctor about them?
I have not studied archaeology to site names of hand, but at first I think of Simcha Jacobovici and I doubt the Hebrew University would say he was not real. From what I have heard the debate against Moses and the Exodus is not the greater one.

Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries, so was this like being influenced by Gandalph?

Moses is so ancient that we don't have history of him like WW1. History was only really recorded from the ninth century BC, in regards to King David. Moses is somewhat legendary from a non faith, scientific view. Wikipedia mentions him, I found a few articles. I will have to read them later. Doing some exams.

The vision I had was an operating table vision just coming out of, Gamazel anesthetic. Pardon my spelling. Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 16:31:45
I think without bias that the Hebrews somehow left Egypt and invaded Israel. It should be in the DNA of the fully Hebrew Jews.

It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories, the superiority of Hebrew soldiers despite the Egyptian trained Moses.

I think that is why it is considered a legend by science minded historians. Then there is also the bias against Jews. And the worry of fights starting over Israel. Some do not want to acknowledge their right to live there.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 20:00:33
Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
It is often wise to take your doctor's advice.
Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries,
Via time travel?
Moses was said to have lived long before the Romans came to these islands (bringing their legal system with them).
At the time, there was no formal legal system in Britain.

So, even if Moses ever lived he was a long time dead before anyone could influence the british legal system.
It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories,
I don't...


"The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure"
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 20:03:04
The vision I had was an operating table vision just coming out of, Gamazel anesthetic.
So, your response to my reminder that hallucinations are not evidence is to say that it was a drug induced hallucination.


Do you think that makes it better?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 13/09/2019 15:47:56
Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
It is often wise to take your doctor's advice.
Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries,
Via time travel?
Moses was said to have lived long before the Romans came to these islands (bringing their legal system with them).
At the time, there was no formal legal system in Britain.

So, even if Moses ever lived he was a long time dead before anyone could influence the british legal system.
It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories,
I don't...


"The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure"
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

Moses in wikipedia is said to possible have existed as more than a mythical figure. It elaborates and speculates. And though it does not mention English law, it does mention that of the old USA at foundational times. And mentions Swedish historian Hugo Valentin as considering Moses the first to establish the rights of man.

Where can I find Moses influence on Britain and England in particular? He may have influenced Rome, not by time travel but through the debates of Jews living in Greece and Rome through the hundreds of years before and after Christ.

Visions on operating tables that do not come from hallucinogens, such as NDEs and OBEs are treated differently to hallucinations. But not all doctors take an interest. That is why I mentioned Gamazel as I think it is called, and not Ketamine, since the latter induces hallucinations. Gamazel causes memory loss of the event.


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2019 19:10:13
Do you understand that a man who did not exist can not have influenced anything?

People who thought he existed may well have had an influence, but that is not evidence that he was actually real.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 14/09/2019 06:06:02
Do you understand that a man who did not exist can not have influenced anything?

People who thought he existed may well have had an influence, but that is not evidence that he was actually real.

I am sure I cannot persuade you to change your mind, and you cannot change mine. We are set in past decisions. For me, I am sure the Bible is evidence he existed, and that it is not a book of legends. Scientists here seem to believe God exists only one in five, from a past poll. You would be an atheist then. Others but which are scholars with biases I mentioned  would be the Hebrew University and another article I found was a Jew who graduated from Harvard and disagrees with the trends in amongst those scholars.

Not only the Romans but the Jews have offered us things in civilization and obviously Moses was the authority to them. They suffered a lot for that, to me that gives credence to his being real and not a fanciful idea. Circumcision, and keeping a just culture separate from pagans, the strictness and the defence of Israel was for a valid, non fanciful reason. God's presence existed and persisted throughout the composition of the whole Bible, and is still active today in pastors and writers and evangelists. You can find it if you look even locally. But you cannot have proof, God doesn't offer it. Christ is the choice of millions of Chinese in China and the same in Africa, despite persecution, not just for Bible ideas, but because of the experience of God's presence and power.

The development of the character of the Christ over hundreds of years and that someone fulfilled all those prophecies takes a consistency and most extraordinary luck if it were by chance. It seems behind the men and women, there was one author in common.