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General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: davidwilliams on 25/06/2019 11:45:15

Title: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: davidwilliams on 25/06/2019 11:45:15
Why hasn't science been able to prove the existence of God? I was A2A on a question about turning into an atheist at 13 years of age. It bothered me deeply and I came to question my own beliefs. I'm at a crossroad. Help me through logical answers.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/06/2019 18:53:58
Why hasn't science been able to prove the existence of God?
One reasonable possibility is that He doesn't exist.
Also, because religion cheats.
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/6-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/matthew/4-7.htm
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: evan_au on 25/06/2019 22:53:46
Quote from: davidwilliams
I'm at a crossroad. Help me through logical answers.
This is a bit more specific than the general question, but you could have a look at:
Evidence That Demands A Verdict: Life-changing Truth For A Skeptical World
by Josh McDowell & Sean McDowell

PS: This probably belongs in the "Just Chat" section...
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/06/2019 00:05:23
First, determine what you mean by God. Then decide what you would consider proof of existence. Now look for that proof. Or, if you want to be scientific, look for disproof.

So far, I haven't come across anyone whose definition and chosen proof have stood up to scrutiny.   

You could postulate "somebody must be in charge of everything" which may not be disprovable, but he's clearly not on the side of homo sapiens, so I'm an antitheist.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 26/06/2019 21:08:37
If there is a god who is omnipotent then it doesn't manifest its power. Newton's laws show that nothing is moved out of place without a very reasonable explanation. The laws of Newton would be broken every time god acted. Find the action without a cause and you find god
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 28/06/2019 17:39:13
First, determine what you mean by God. Then decide what you would consider proof of existence. Now look for that proof. Or, if you want to be scientific, look for disproof.

So far, I haven't come across anyone whose definition and chosen proof have stood up to scrutiny.   


God the old guy sat in a chair that can do anything has similarities with many religions, and is clearly bollocks.

Religion makes the concept of god external to the person, allowing priests popes schizophrenics(see old testament) etc to speak on behalf of god and tell people what to do, organising societies, etc.

God the creator has similarities with Big Bang, in the beginning there was light. Playing with this idea and for the purposes of argument, and shear boredom. I would define god as being the universe, with everything in it being a part of said god. This god would be an automaton, responding only to external inputs, and abiding by the laws of physics etc.

The universe clearly exists so by my definition, god is proven to exist. DOH



Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2019 18:15:02
God the creator has similarities with Big Bang
And one noteworthy difference.
The big bang has evidence.
I would define god as being the universe
OK,
If we can redefine words in order to make  things the way we want them, I propose to redefine "God" too.

God is a pair of whole numbers A and B with no common factor such that A^2 divided by B^2 is exactly two.

The nice thing about this definition is that it allows me to prove that God does not exist
For example
https://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/proof_square_root_2_irrational.php

The problem is it's obviously a laughable definition, but... that doesn't seem to be a problem here
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 29/06/2019 09:45:00
God the creator has similarities with Big Bang
And one noteworthy difference.
The big bang has evidence.
I would define god as being the universe
OK,
If we can redefine words in order to make  things the way we want them, I propose to redefine "God" too.


God is a pair of whole numbers A and B with no common factor such that A^2 divided by B^2 is exactly two.

The nice thing about this definition is that it allows me to prove that God does not exist
For example
https://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/proof_square_root_2_irrational.php

The problem is it's obviously a laughable definition, but... that doesn't seem to be a problem here

You might be even more bored than me.

Yes, the big bang claims to have evidence, but it does not constitute incontrovertible proof of the big bang, it is just a theory that will never have incontrovertible proof. The creation of all the matter in the universe in fractions of a second in some hot big bang, is less plausible than Hoyles ideas happening more slowly over an eternity, with no beginning of time. The genesis jackanory creation story taking 7 days could equally cite as evidence, the universe as it stands today. Evidence does not constitute proof.

God as a pair of whole numbers, is smaller than the universe as a god, with us just being a constituent part of said god. We could always assume the sun is god like what the Romans did. Again the sun exists, and is therefore  evidence of this version of god.

As Alan noted, the problem with the concept of god is in the definition. Some religions don't require a god, see Buddhism. Others don't seem to define said god, but just insist it exists. Jehovas witnesses for example when asked to define what god is never come back  ;)

The universe is god, is not a new concept, its called Pantheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism. Science just tries to understand the mind of said god. :) The universe exists, therefore Pantheist god exists.   ;D

Whole numbers also exist, so your definition of god also works, but they are just a small part of the Pantheist god. This would also apply to some rock star or football player, or egyptian priest reverred as a god. They are all just small parts of the eternal Hoyle universe, that did not start 14 billion years ago, in some laughable (according to Hoyle) big bang.


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2019 11:06:38
Yes, the big bang claims to have evidence,
No, it actually has evidence.

but it does not constitute incontrovertible proof
How fortunate, then, that nobody said it was.
The creation of all the matter in the universe in fractions of a second in some hot big bang, is less plausible than Hoyles ideas happening more slowly over an eternity, with no beginning of time.
No.
Because the big bang doesn't conflict with Olber's paradox, but the continuous generation idea does.

Also, with continuous generation you need some sort of pan universal time keeper to make sure that "new matter" is made at the right rate.
I can see you contemplating  calling that "God".
The genesis jackanory creation story taking 7 days could equally cite as evidence, the universe as it stands today
Not really.
Genesis  doesn't make sense.
"And the evening and the morning were the third day."
But the first  and second days must have had mornings and evenings- that's pretty much the definition of "day".

But the  failings of bronze age goat herders' myths aren't important here.
The universe exists, therefore Pantheist god exists.
Least useful tautology since "brexit means brexit".
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 29/06/2019 11:37:16
WTF

The thread is about can science prove the existence of god. This depends on definition of said god. Your god is clearly an absolute belief in the hot big bang theory whereby you take as incontrovertible proof the CBR. The CBR could equally be evidence for a cold slower beginning to the universe. Once the temperature rises to about 2.75K cold baryogenesis ceases  ;) The only reason Hoyles ideas ended is because he popped his clogs and did not have a viable explanation for the CBR. The idea is not completely dead.

The fact of the matter is the universe exists, and has evolved to what it is today. From the pantheist point of view this is evidence for the pantheist god, which answers the question can science prove the existence of god. ie The definition of god depends on how god is defined from the Pantheist viewpoint you are already a part of god.

If you chose to have a god as an imaginary character that left no historical evidence and most likely never actually existed, not mentioning any names, that is up to you. You can take the born again religious view and invite said being into your life or accept a Pantheist viewpoint. If you want a god have one, define it how you like, if it is an object, it can be proven to exist, if it is imaginery it cant be proven to exist.

Like Alan wrote above proving the existence of god depends on the definition. :)


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2019 12:28:36
proving the existence of god depends on the definition.
And redefining it as a means to answer the question is pointless.

If I choose a definition that makes God exist then He exists.
If I choose a definition that makes Him not exist, then He doesn't exist.
So what?
Neither option actually tells us anything.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 30/06/2019 10:22:20
proving the existence of god depends on the definition.
And redefining it as a means to answer the question is pointless.

If I choose a definition that makes God exist then He exists.
If I choose a definition that makes Him not exist, then He doesn't exist.
So what?
Neither option actually tells us anything.

That is the point, people that believe in a god do not generally have a plausible definition of the god they believe in, they just believe one must exist, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

People in general like to believe in things and be part of a community, regardless of evidence to the contrary, or different interpretations of claimed evidence.

Communities/societies built around a religious belief which is self reinforcing, and likely imprinted into peoples subconscious at an early age. These communities have leaders who reinforce the belief. Groups of people working together are often more succesful than individuals, who do not believe what they are told.

Speculation
If we take a ficticious character as a god with no supporting evidence other than the word of an emperor from a failing empire, with multiple religions and beliefs. We might form a council with all the religious leaders from different groups and arrive at a common acceptable religion based on the common religious ideas at that time. We might enforce the religion by nailing disbelievers to crosses or feeding them to lions etc. Cerca 325AD end of Roman empire, Emperor Constantine convened a council to form a new religion, to control his empire. He was a sun worshipper why would his new religion not have festivals based on equinoxes? Does the Roman empire still exert an influence today via its religion?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 07/07/2019 21:21:19
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/07/2019 21:52:35
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
No.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 10/07/2019 17:38:34
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.

Define what your god is?

Is it maybe the quantum vacuum, zero point energy, dark energy, dark ???? ?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 10/07/2019 17:45:51
One only needs to look at the world around them to see that only God can create life.
No.
Please define your understanding of god, that enables you to answer No.

God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared. (in a big bang related sort of way, creating all of life in the universe ;) )
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 10/07/2019 18:22:23
Does the Roman empire still exert an influence today via its religion?
Philistines, Romans, the Inquisition, Communism, Fascism, even the British Empire....all came and went. We're still here. And, if modern-day antisemites are to be believed, we're still in charge of everything. The answer seems to be in having a faith that doesn't seek to convert or conquer others, or even argue very loudly for our precepts. It would be nice to be ignored for a few thousand years, but as Topol pointed out "If you look at a map, Israel is about the size of Yorkshire. If you look at a newspaper, it's bigger than Russia."   
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/07/2019 21:22:49
This god apparently caused the big bang then. OK. Well let's work with that conclusion. For billions of years mankind didn't exist. This dude, or dudette, who is all powerful, just didn't bother to use his or her supreme powers to do much at all for most of the time. What then? The supreme one just got bored?

Or maybe, using Occam's razor, life was a slow and incremental process that just took that long to develop. Still, maybe I am now damned to an eternity in eternal suffering. I doubt it.

The only real miracle is that we haven't destroyed ourselves yet.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 11/07/2019 23:01:23
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 12/07/2019 13:31:14
The only real miracle is that we haven't destroyed ourselves yet.

I suspect that has more to do with good luck, or not as the case may be  ;)

Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 12/07/2019 13:35:17
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Where does your god come from? what is it?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/07/2019 18:53:38
God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared.
Or God might be defined as a cucumber.
But that too, would be silly.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:25:39
God might be defined as the quantum vacuum perhaps from which via baryogenesis everything in the universe may have appeared.
Or God might be defined as a cucumber.
But that too, would be silly.

What would make a cucumber god any different to any other god.

The great god cucumber could be used in skin treatments, and reward the worshipper with soft skin perhaps.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:28:10
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Ive got it, your gods a mathematician, in the beginning there was the HUP.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 13/07/2019 10:31:23
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?

Your god is male then, and decides to be merciful or not as the case me be. Does this version of god respond to random events like a automaton.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Faltuh on 23/07/2019 04:59:31
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?
yes i think so
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 26/07/2019 07:12:33
Why is life the only singularity ever detected?  Life is NOT natural.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/07/2019 09:36:51
Why is life the only singularity ever detected?
Life is not a singularity, so your question makes no sense.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: flummoxed on 28/07/2019 08:53:32
There is a number of mysterious things in our life such as life itself, if these things are unknown, why do we refer them to myths?
Why not God prove his existence and save our efforts if he is merciful?
yes i think so

Should you have said yes I feel so, because you feel not think a god of some sorts exists. If you cant describe what your god is, then likely you dont know what it is you believe in.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 09/08/2019 12:44:05
God does not need time to exist in. Reminds me of the Tardis. God created the laws of the universe and so when he acts the laws are used, not contradicted. God wants us in this world and life in the Universe, to have faith, confidence, hope, rather than knowledge with proof. It is a nursery and testing ground. And something has gone wrong, with the premature introduction of knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge and proof is good for making tools and medicines..

You can have evidence and personal proof of Christ presence... In the Holy Spirit gifts and powers.

The universe is not self existent. I am not sure if it reasons.

Faith is necessary for dealing with knowledge and revelations... sometimes they are of very developed realities. Life reviews during near death experiences, visions of a city, with pearl gates....

For example, my late granma right up until she died was misled to think that Germany was only defending itself in WW2 and that the Jews had been rioting... I do not think she understood the holocaust. She was educated up to grade school before her father could not afford to send her to high school. Now if being so impressed by Germany she would not believe evidence that Hitler was Jewish in part and a hater. That there had been ambition in the Nazis to invade and not believe that the mass graves were real, even if God showed her images. Then how could she come to a knowledge of reality?

In this world we have evidences and proofs, books, images, reasoning and actual sites and the physical facts to manipulate in our hands and eyes. That is slow. In God is the promise of all wisdom and knowledge flowing through our minds like a waterfall when we die and enter the light. Not believing it is an option and a little blasphemy. When will someone ever believe or doubt a vision from God? Or verses from God?

It is possible some people can lock themselves out from believing God.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 10/08/2019 11:49:57
And something has gone wrong
How could anything go wrong in the creation of an omnipotent, omniscient being who set the specification in the first place, and has the unmitigated power to put it right? 

You will be telling us next that the god who created earthquakes and congenital syphilis is just and merciful.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/08/2019 12:35:01
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Why? We ask why is that constant just so and this constant just so in order for us to exist? Why shouldn't it be just so? The sky looks blue. Why is the atmosphere constituted from molecules that scatter light in such a way that the sky looks blue? If it wasn't just so the sky may be red. So what? Such arguments are nonsense and show the immaturity of our species.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: jeffreyH on 10/08/2019 12:37:45
And BTW all the grown ups lied to you as a kid. Just because the grown ups did the same to them when they were children. Does that sound like maturity.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/08/2019 15:52:37
After the people had dominion things went wrong. This life is for testing and working dominion and faith. We have intervention when we ask or permit. The cross of Christ is the intervention. It is worked out slowly impressing understanding into human culture.

I suppose God made earthquakes, this would have come under our dominion. We lost dominion. Christ has dominion to restore us in his kingdom yet to fully rule on Earth. But God did not make diseases.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: syhprum on 10/08/2019 19:27:31
I think god really loves viruses and only created humans and other mammals as a convenient environment for them to evolve in. 
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/08/2019 20:15:50
After the people had dominion things went wrong.
The real problem is that God saw fit to put the serpent in the garden.
So, it's all His fault.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 11/08/2019 14:02:30
The serpent and tree of knowledge of good and evil was for the Adamic race to gain the ability to always free willing choose good amidst the choice of evil.

The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed and not placed there. An agreement was probably reached beforehand. Adam could have taken authority and gained a nature of obedience and reverence with it's endearing. He would have had dominion over the whole planet.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: lunar7 on 11/08/2019 15:50:01
When we think the way the Universe works; the fundamental constants; the way Science works. There must be a God.

Why? We ask why is that constant just so and this constant just so in order for us to exist? Why shouldn't it be just so? The sky looks blue. Why is the atmosphere constituted from molecules that scatter light in such a way that the sky looks blue? If it wasn't just so the sky may be red. So what? Such arguments are nonsense and show the immaturity of our species.
You are implying the laws of Physics, which is how God makes things work, whether it be an electron orbiting the nuclues of an atom or the roots taking up mineral ions.
Besides, we may be 98% genetically similar to apes, but no linkage has been discovered between us an apes (nor will it be) because God created man in the image of Adam.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 11/08/2019 18:01:55
God created apes and man from a common root in matter or only in design.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 17/08/2019 00:57:56
Science can't even get physical reality right.........why would you think that they could concept God?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:22:57
.why would you think that they could concept God?
"concept" is not a verb.
Would you like to try again, but this time with a requirement that you post stuff that actually  makes sense to the real world?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:23:39
God created apes and man
Do you understand that man is an ape?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:25:47
to gain the ability to always free willing choose
... and in English?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:26:41
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed
Do you work for ATOS?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 01:31:35
An agreement was probably
There's nothing which inspires confidence like  a "God" that "probably" does something.
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed and not placed there.
I challenge you  to demonstrate that your assertion can be parsed in English.
Adam could have taken authority and gained a nature of obedience and reverence with it's endearing.
Ditto.
Did it occur to you that posting nonsense on a science we site will (at best) get you laughed at?
He would have had dominion over the whole planet.
If the fairy tale is right, he had already been granted that.
What did you think  you added there?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:26:31
God created apes and man
Do you understand that man is an ape?
I just checked and see you are correct.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:35:27
to gain the ability to always free willing choose
... and in English?
The first humans had to use free will. They had to be exposed to evil, while free willing, to free willingly choose obedience and stay in the light of life. Rather than be forced or protected from the knowledge of it. Over time, human nature would have become resistant to making evil choices.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:36:55
The Spirit entity in the serpent was self employed
Do you work for ATOS?
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 10:41:32
The first humans could have kept their dominion. They and we today would have dominion over the whole planet, in regards to natural events.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 12:29:38
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Then why did God create Satan?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 13:38:20
Satan opposes God and does not ever work for Him only against Him. He also hates men and women made in his image and likeness.
Then why did God create Satan?
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion. So he chose from the options one that would be finite, least successful and final. Finally finished. Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind, the angel led a rebellion seeking to have God's throne and power rather than worshipping him. They were expelled and became the angels of death.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2019 13:49:53
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 17/08/2019 15:22:58
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
The angel was extremely intelligent, and proud. He went from worshipping God for his greatness to wanting to have it. Immense pride, jealousy, ambition, something like adultery, taking the worship of the rebellious angels... God saw it coming and chose the best of the options.

Satan and his cohorts were expelled, much weaker than God. Not as intelligent and weak at creativity, the angel of death imitates God or remembers works of old.

Some people worship money, some pleasure... but whatever it is, it is what seems to be worth the most to you that you see and feel is the source of good in your life.

Other Christians hold that God has a hidden purpose for evil.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: xitisoha on 19/08/2019 19:42:30
You are the part of god :)
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 06/09/2019 23:37:51
I would say God knew there would eventually be a rebellion.
In the absence of any evil, what could provoke a rebellion?
Satan was created as a servant, to serve God in the light, but he changed his mind,
Didn't God see that coming?
Did He choose to do nothing to stop it, and thus create all that is bad in the world?

It seems that Satan is more powerful than God.
Perhaps I should worship him.
The angel was extremely intelligent, and proud. He went from worshipping God for his greatness to wanting to have it. Immense pride, jealousy, ambition, something like adultery, taking the worship of the rebellious angels... God saw it coming and chose the best of the options.

Satan and his cohorts were expelled, much weaker than God. Not as intelligent and weak at creativity, the angel of death imitates God or remembers works of old.

Some people worship money, some pleasure... but whatever it is, it is what seems to be worth the most to you that you see and feel is the source of good in your life.

Other Christians hold that God has a hidden purpose for evil.
Do you believe that only christian god exists? What do you think about gods of other religions? Can they coexist?
If you can find a method to proof  that they also exist, you can be a pantheist.
On the other hand, if your method concludes that they don't exist, try using it to your own god. You may become an atheist.
If your method doesn't give you any conclusion, you may become an agnostic. But you can find a better method which is not useless.
If your method can prove the existence of your god while disproving other gods reliably, you can try your luck by sharing your method here. You may convert someone into your religion.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/09/2019 14:10:58
If we look back to the earliest gods, that of Genesis, Elohim, Moses YHWH based on Elohim. And Look at the story of Pandora's Box, and India's first god, Purusha. There is a commonality. The angels of Purusha that rebelled were said to break up Purusha into other gods, with the female principle, and then the threeness of the Hindu Trinity, creator destroyer. To me the latter are half truths. So there is only one god, whose presence fills the universe, he is all seeing, the Earth is his footstool, his presence fills the Earth, in him is also femininity and threeness. A benevolent nature. Looking here at Hinduism at the start. I do not believe in many gods. Or an overpowering greatness of rebellious angels.

Only one God revealed Himself in history, with a greater nature of love than any gods in mythology.  Only one answers the great challenges of sickness, sin which is also injustice, selfishness and unclean. And death. Making a way back to the friendship between Elohim and Adam and better.
[/quote]
Do you believe that only christian god exists? What do you think about gods of other religions? Can they coexist?
If you can find a method to proof  that they also exist, you can be a pantheist.
On the other hand, if your method concludes that they don't exist, try using it to your own god. You may become an atheist.
If your method doesn't give you any conclusion, you may become an agnostic. But you can find a better method which is not useless.
If your method can prove the existence of your god while disproving other gods reliably, you can try your luck by sharing your method here. You may convert someone into your religion.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 10/09/2019 14:24:51
To me the latter are half truths.
How do you determine which part is true, while the other is false?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/09/2019 14:26:45
To me the latter are half truths.
How do you determine which part is true, while the other is false?
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 11/09/2019 16:13:10
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
How do you know moses?
How do you know that the stories about him are true?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 07:16:49
The parts that resemble the faith checked by Moses in God's presence. The parts that do not give powers to define to the angels of death.
How do you know moses?
How do you know that the stories about him are true?

Moses is impressed in history as a well educated law maker and nation maker. There are examples of archaeological evidence of the displacement of people who ate pork in Israel or what was Israel. Things like sites where there were pork bones and pottery of one type, replaced by lamb bones and a new type of pottery during the Exodus period.

There are the Dead Sea Scrolls as evidence of the book being faithfully transcribed, the Torah.

I had a vision of Moses.

Moses is endorsed in the Gospel with checks about hard heartedness. I believe in Moses because of Jesus and aspects of Moses' law fit in my natural judgement and my cultural learning, like marrying your girlfriend if you make her pregnant...

Moses best documented the Genesis account of creation and put together the old traditions with new revelations in God's presence, which is a constant theme throughout the Bible and all writings from YHWH. No love and presence, no YHWH and the gentiles under Paul the apostle, their faith rested in power as well as the earlier two. I have experienced touches of these things. The state of my conscience changing to clear, and a clean heart, also secret thoughts revealed and seeing others and hearing their testimonies of the same sorts of things being done in them.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 07:35:59
Moses is impressed in history
Really?
Can you show me a contemporary independent reference to show that he even existed?
I had a vision of Moses.
Your hallucinations don't constitute evidence.
Have you spoken to your doctor about them?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 09:15:16
Moses is impressed in history
Really?
Can you show me a contemporary independent reference to show that he even existed?
I had a vision of Moses.
Your hallucinations don't constitute evidence.
Have you spoken to your doctor about them?
I have not studied archaeology to site names of hand, but at first I think of Simcha Jacobovici and I doubt the Hebrew University would say he was not real. From what I have heard the debate against Moses and the Exodus is not the greater one.

Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries, so was this like being influenced by Gandalph?

Moses is so ancient that we don't have history of him like WW1. History was only really recorded from the ninth century BC, in regards to King David. Moses is somewhat legendary from a non faith, scientific view. Wikipedia mentions him, I found a few articles. I will have to read them later. Doing some exams.

The vision I had was an operating table vision just coming out of, Gamazel anesthetic. Pardon my spelling. Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 12/09/2019 16:31:45
I think without bias that the Hebrews somehow left Egypt and invaded Israel. It should be in the DNA of the fully Hebrew Jews.

It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories, the superiority of Hebrew soldiers despite the Egyptian trained Moses.

I think that is why it is considered a legend by science minded historians. Then there is also the bias against Jews. And the worry of fights starting over Israel. Some do not want to acknowledge their right to live there.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 20:00:33
Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
It is often wise to take your doctor's advice.
Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries,
Via time travel?
Moses was said to have lived long before the Romans came to these islands (bringing their legal system with them).
At the time, there was no formal legal system in Britain.

So, even if Moses ever lived he was a long time dead before anyone could influence the british legal system.
It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories,
I don't...


"The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure"
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2019 20:03:04
The vision I had was an operating table vision just coming out of, Gamazel anesthetic.
So, your response to my reminder that hallucinations are not evidence is to say that it was a drug induced hallucination.


Do you think that makes it better?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 13/09/2019 15:47:56
Doctors would mostly ignore these things.
It is often wise to take your doctor's advice.
Britain's legal system was influenced by Moses over the centuries,
Via time travel?
Moses was said to have lived long before the Romans came to these islands (bringing their legal system with them).
At the time, there was no formal legal system in Britain.

So, even if Moses ever lived he was a long time dead before anyone could influence the british legal system.
It is hard to believe in the pillar of fire, the mighty victories,
I don't...


"The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure"
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

Moses in wikipedia is said to possible have existed as more than a mythical figure. It elaborates and speculates. And though it does not mention English law, it does mention that of the old USA at foundational times. And mentions Swedish historian Hugo Valentin as considering Moses the first to establish the rights of man.

Where can I find Moses influence on Britain and England in particular? He may have influenced Rome, not by time travel but through the debates of Jews living in Greece and Rome through the hundreds of years before and after Christ.

Visions on operating tables that do not come from hallucinogens, such as NDEs and OBEs are treated differently to hallucinations. But not all doctors take an interest. That is why I mentioned Gamazel as I think it is called, and not Ketamine, since the latter induces hallucinations. Gamazel causes memory loss of the event.


Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2019 19:10:13
Do you understand that a man who did not exist can not have influenced anything?

People who thought he existed may well have had an influence, but that is not evidence that he was actually real.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 14/09/2019 06:06:02
Do you understand that a man who did not exist can not have influenced anything?

People who thought he existed may well have had an influence, but that is not evidence that he was actually real.

I am sure I cannot persuade you to change your mind, and you cannot change mine. We are set in past decisions. For me, I am sure the Bible is evidence he existed, and that it is not a book of legends. Scientists here seem to believe God exists only one in five, from a past poll. You would be an atheist then. Others but which are scholars with biases I mentioned  would be the Hebrew University and another article I found was a Jew who graduated from Harvard and disagrees with the trends in amongst those scholars.

Not only the Romans but the Jews have offered us things in civilization and obviously Moses was the authority to them. They suffered a lot for that, to me that gives credence to his being real and not a fanciful idea. Circumcision, and keeping a just culture separate from pagans, the strictness and the defence of Israel was for a valid, non fanciful reason. God's presence existed and persisted throughout the composition of the whole Bible, and is still active today in pastors and writers and evangelists. You can find it if you look even locally. But you cannot have proof, God doesn't offer it. Christ is the choice of millions of Chinese in China and the same in Africa, despite persecution, not just for Bible ideas, but because of the experience of God's presence and power.

The development of the character of the Christ over hundreds of years and that someone fulfilled all those prophecies takes a consistency and most extraordinary luck if it were by chance. It seems behind the men and women, there was one author in common.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/09/2019 21:10:00
You say " obviously Moses was the authority"
Why can't you understand that a myth of Moses would do that just as well as a real one?
It can't be "obvious" because it isn't true.
It can't be true because Moses isn't real.

I am sure I cannot persuade you to change your mind, and you cannot change mine.
I will change my mind if you provide evidence. You refuse to do so.
So the real question is "What are you doing on a science web page?"
You clearly are not interested in science.

Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Zer0 on 23/09/2019 22:10:32
OP - Re: Can science prove God exists?

Should it?

What exactly happens when Science debunks & demolishes all of Faith in the Almighty?
Aren't some folks on our planet so pauperised that all that they have or own to face the hardships of tomorrow is Hope & Faith.

I was pretty disappointed knowing the toothfairy ain't real...do not even get me started on Santa!
Is it fun to make kids cry in order to make em grow up?
Shouldn't growing old be a compulsion as usual, but growing up be kept always optional.


& Honestly, does Science not have any other more important impending crises to provide solutions for...
What good are such debates on & whether if GOD exists or not, other than they being extreme waste of time?

Why do believers belittle their own God by trying to seek proof of existence thru Science...
Believe what you may, keep your Faith..
Just Please remember, whatever your commandments are, keep em to yourself locked up inside of your own head.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/09/2019 17:42:48
Is it fun to make kids cry in order to make em grow up?
If people didn't tell lies about Sant and the Tooth fairy, they would save the kids from the tears when they find out
(1) they aren't real and
(2) they can't trust their parents.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Harryobr on 25/09/2019 12:01:41
Oh my God. Why is life the only singularity ever detected?  Life is NOT natural.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 26/09/2019 00:52:08
Life is the only single thing we have ever seen.  We see multiples of objects and entities thru out the universe.  But life is only here.

That tells me that life is not natural.   Life is more than mass and energy and their nature.   Life configures their nature, then replicates itself.  Allowing further configuration of nature.

Why?  How?  When?   Do you believe science can find the answers?   What about death?  We know that death is not necessary for to multiply life, so why is there death?

It's so cruel.  Why does life tease us.   Can science find out?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 26/09/2019 02:16:07
Why?  How?  When?   Do you believe science can find the answers?   What about death?  We know that death is not necessary for to multiply life, so why is there death?
I think that death is/was necessary to remind us that our current system is not perfect (yet), hence need to change and restart to make progress. It's necessary due to finite available resources. This should be obvious if we learned about genetic algorithm.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 06:45:52
You say " obviously Moses was the authority"
Why can't you understand that a myth of Moses would do that just as well as a real one?
It can't be "obvious" because it isn't true.
It can't be true because Moses isn't real.

I am sure I cannot persuade you to change your mind, and you cannot change mine.
I will change my mind if you provide evidence. You refuse to do so.
So the real question is "What are you doing on a science web page?"
You clearly are not interested in science.


Moses' works of literature and military tactics were intellectual and from an educated man, poetry, mighty victories. He left a succession, and records of events that many modern people won't believe because of the supernatural content. He lived so long ago, in primitive times that records of history were not well done as later with King David and later still with the 5th century bc Greeks.

I tend to take Exodus as a real account.

If I were to look for evidence in the natural, it would be examples Hebrews DNA testing. Are they a distinct race?

What is the motive for a myth or a lie? Advantage? What advantage was there? Inside practicing justice was good, but outside it meant continuous struggles and conflict with demon worshipping pagans. It went on for centuries. They had to record of their ancestries. They could not simply mix with the pagans. From Moses they had a sense of justice balanced with mercy that worked and influences us today.

People may just believe that ancient Pharaoh records are true, but Moses they don't because the records are so old and scant for science. And some people refuse to believe in miracles.

Having experienced what we call Jesus' sacred blood as a man, I am persuaded to believe there was the line of Judah and Moses' sacrifice system...

So I suppose to post enlightenment scientists Moses is not an authority in the same way he once was anymore.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 07:42:23
From the OP and behind what I have typed, is my admiration and respect for American open mindedness.

Many scientists and from a poll here, 4 out of 5 are non theists, are like vacuum sealed or tort. Beyond what can be seen or tested, they hold there is nothing, sometimes even it is as a faith.

If you could picture their observations, in plastic wrap, it would hold shape. No pockets of air.

I prefer open mindedness.

If we look at the size of our solar system the Milky Way, Andromeda, and consider how many galaxies there are, it is magnificently huge. And some scientists think it it came from nothing, although nothing had a powerful nature, to spontaneously produce a vast amount of matter and anti-matter. In the end they think the universe is self existent.

In addition to the universe vast nature, intelligent life in the universe like human beings, dolphins and elephants and sexual reproduction and beauty and the mind, are part of the universe. It does not take a great open mind to choose to consider another factor was self existent.

Christians believe God is self existent. It takes the same amount of faith, either way. God with his order and detail, or the universe with it's order, detail and life. I am open minded to think God is.

And I am open minded to think Moses and Bible accounts are real.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 12:42:04
If I were to look for evidence in the natural, it would be examples Hebrews DNA testing. Are they a distinct race?
Race isn't a well defined concept in science.
I tend to take Exodus as a real account.
That's your opinion; had you somehow mistaken it for evidence?
It takes the same amount of faith, either way.
Not really.
There is actual evidence for the big bang and (whether you like this  or not) there is none for God.
Also, you seem to brush aside the fact that, no matter how complex (and thus improbable) the universe is, God must be more complex and- by the same argument- more improbable.
And I am open minded to think Moses and Bible accounts are real.
You are not open minded at all.
You refuse to consider the evidence which shows that they are substantially made up.
We know who rewrote them, where and when.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 12:56:01
There is actual evidence for the big bang and (whether you like this  or not) there is none for God.
Also, you seem to brush aside the fact that, no matter how complex (and thus improbable) the universe is, God must be more complex and- by the same argument- more improbable.
And I am open minded to think Moses and Bible accounts are real.
You are not open minded at all.
You refuse to consider the evidence which shows that they are substantially made up.
We know who rewrote them, where and when.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
The matter of probability does not apply to some matters. Probability cannot apply to the question of God's existence. Probability is for maths and to some extent physics. It is not transcendent. It is a subject within the universe, to things in the universe. A parallel universe could be quite different and without logic, from the same God.
 
The Hebrews separate from the Christian councils have their own school.

https://www.coursera.org/huji
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 13:25:03
https://www.coursera.org/huji
"The Hebrew University was founded in 1918 "
Come on...
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 14:03:21
https://www.coursera.org/huji
"The Hebrew University was founded in 1918 "
Come on...
The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH. The Jews mixed in Europe always had their own distinct from Trinitarian school of thought, theology and have their own contributions to archaeology.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 14:38:08
https://www.coursera.org/huji
"The Hebrew University was founded in 1918 "
Come on...
The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH. The Jews mixed in Europe always had their own distinct from Trinitarian school of thought, theology and have their own contributions to archaeology.
So why post a link to a university that's younger than my granny?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 14:39:58
The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH.
It's a book.
So is Lord of the rings.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 14:43:09

The people behind the Uni, in Jerusalem lived there since before Christ, with in mind, Roman expulsion and resettlement... Israel is ancient with it's own schools. Pre-Nicaea.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 16:03:27
It's still a book.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Zer0 on 28/09/2019 16:28:07
The Hebrews had always maintained their language in Israel. Their own TANACH.
It's a book.
So is Lord of the rings.

ROFL!

Can't believe it is still going on & on...centuries have passed...may God help Science!
;)
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 16:39:22
It's still a book.
The TANACH is non fiction. People lived by it, wrote it, fulfilled it... It has a consistency, such as a lead up to a Messiah figure, that the Jews don't accept. We have to agree to disagree, because the writings of the Bible are about a God, you don't believe exists but some other scientists do and a lot of other people, like Lawyers and accountants...
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 17:15:10
It's still a book.
The TANACH is non fiction. People lived by it, wrote it, fulfilled it... It has a consistency, such as a lead up to a Messiah figure, that the Jews don't accept. We have to agree to disagree, because the writings of the Bible are about a God, you don't believe exists but some other scientists do and a lot of other people, like Lawyers and accountants...
It's still a book.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 17:59:52
It is a book, theirs, the work of their ancestors, which whether you or not you believe it, is another school of thought that is separate from and predates the Catholic Church. For it not to be altered for different reasons. And now it can be tested against the dead sea scrolls.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 18:01:59
Do you realise that I don't care very much about the church- Catholic or otherwise.
So it doesn't matter to me that one old book is different from another old book.

Neither of them is evidence- for the same reason that the Lord of the rings is not evidence of hobbits and elves.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/09/2019 19:04:51
Do you realise that I don't care very much about the church- Catholic or otherwise.
So it doesn't matter to me that one old book is different from another old book.

Neither of them is evidence- for the same reason that the Lord of the rings is not evidence of hobbits and elves.
What about such things as dates in King David's life and works as compared with archaeology that matches. Say Kings and tablet records in surrounding lands sites?

And I thought you were saying the Catholic Church invented Moses?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2019 20:06:21
What I was saying is that religions make stuff up
In the case of the Catholic church we know who, where and when.
There is no reason to imagine the other religions are different

Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 29/09/2019 07:43:19
Science can do quite a few things. Science is based on logic and observation. One observes and makes deductions which can have a great possibility of being true. An example was the Greeks logically deducing that atoms exist. It took a very long time for the proof but it did come.

The key observation that science should look at is that intelligence has evolved - mankind (generally true). To get to the point of such intelligence life had to do some things that are almost unimaginable. Cells had to signal each other and agree to cooperate. Cellular learning had to be encoded in the genes both in nuclear genes and mitochondrial genes. Replication and repair mechanisms had to be evolved. And the Earth had to go through stages that encouraged and promoted the evolution of intelligence. Dinosaurs had to be eliminated as the dominant species. Earth had to go through 10,000 years of ideal conditions so that the final emergence of mankind as fully functional intelligence could occur.

Science then asks questions. Is this an accident, or by design? One looks at the tendency inert molecules have to combine and align themselves with each other in cooperative arrangements. The carbon-oxygen-hydrogen-nitrogen combinations seem endless.

Study the channels on the cellular membrane, and even the membrane itself. They can open to allow on one ion species through at a time (millions per sec) based on tiny differentials or enzyme signals. They are proteins wound into folding coils. Just the folding of proteins that must take place with repeated accuracy is incredible.

Study the mechanism of sight. One photon of a particular wavelength causes a protein molecule to change size, press on another protein and start the chain of a nerve impulse.

The other question scientists do ask is "why did this happen"? What is the prime cause?

We know about the Big Bang but not where it came from. We do not know why there was more matter than anti-matter.

If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence. The Prime Cause does not have to consist of anything and if it is vast enough it can create almost unlimited virtual reality of incredible complexity. Part of that incredible complexity could be both a God and a Satan each with vast but limited powers. As part of the rules they would have to remain unproven. Little miracles here and there that remain as anecdotes.

Another observation is that mankind is predisposed to mystical events, and that every now and then a prophet who changes the course of history arrives.

Skeptics scoff at the "story" but cannot offer a better one.

I was an atheist at 12 years, an agnostic at 17 years and now at 70 years I choose to believe (I have no faith) on the basis of personal experience. I have had few psychic experiences that cannot be explained by the usual "brain malfunction". Atheists presume that there is no God and every explanation goes "it cannot be true therefore we will chose a best-fit explanation". They then try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I personally find that nearly every religion has some truth in it. God gave all of us a piece of the puzzle. IMO.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/09/2019 09:25:54
If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence.
And, since almost all life is not on an evolutionary path to intelligence, we can reject the postulate.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 29/09/2019 10:42:03
If one postulates that the Prime Cause is an intelligent entity then that explains the drive of evolution towards intelligence.
And, since almost all life is not on an evolutionary path to intelligence, we can reject the postulate.

First, your definition of "intelligence". And define "almost all". Quite the naysayer are you. Not "WE can reject" but "I [you] can reject". You are an opinion of one. You bring a blunderbuss to a debate of the highest order.

Mankind needed all the underlying life forms to reach peak intelligence. Even the trees that died off so long ago to provide coal and oil. And the trees that provided timber in various forms for sailing ships and shelter (or weapons of war), or fruit, or latex for rubber. Does a tree have basic intelligence to be able to assemble a collection of cells with all of them cooperating for the benefit of the whole? Finding water and light and then adjusting the behavior of cells to change?

Without the galaxies being formed, without planets being formed and without a Goldilocks planet with ideal terraforming, humankind could not have evolved. Need I mention the fine balance of the cosmic constants?

God provided clues for even the scientists to see and marvel at. Of course, there are those who will not see. The motor for the flagellum on certain bacteria. Humankind imitates life but this was a design well ahead of electric motors. All the parts must be there in order to operate. The intricacy is mind-boggling (for those who can appreciate just how intricate it is). That design must then be encoded in genes and the various cells must replicate and divide in a startling path in order to arrive at the end result.

And what is dark matter and dark energy but a figment of imagination in order to make the physical equations here on Earth work? Perhaps the Ultimate Creator Intelligence is messing with us knowing we will extinct ourselves before getting off this planet. Or not wanting us off the planet until we have evolved more spiritually?

Earlier I saw you said A) There are lupins B) There are no lupins and then said they cannot both be true. What about Schrodingers cat in the box? Apparently it can be either alive and dead at the same time. And what about electrons being in two places at the same time. Quantum logic can strange when used in everyday situations.

But the cause and effect rule still applies as one of the most basic rules. What is the Prime Cause? What is your opinion? And why you hold the belief that your opinion might be true?

Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/09/2019 12:40:41
You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 29/09/2019 13:43:00
You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.
I don't think God will give us a portion of his presence to test. Knowing and trusting are alternate to each other. Imagine a baby who will not trust dad, learn from dad, infer from dad unless it is proven under tests. Fast paced love and friendship cannot take place. You can't be filled with all knowledge if you do not trust the holy one when you recognize him. All the info is not trusted as well. All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.

You can have evidence in prophecy, and you can experience God's presence, drink it in, but that is after trusting usually. After an near death experience, many people return to life knowing there is an afterlife and spirit and soul and other entities like God, angels and demons. But they can't prove it to anyone else.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/09/2019 14:20:26
What about Schrodingers cat in the box?
It's irrelevant.
I have observed the garden.
The motor for the flagellum on certain bacteria. ... the various cells must replicate and divide in a startling path in order to arrive at the end result.
Bacteria are single cells; The flagellum is part of, and produced by, each bacterium. It is not produced by cell division.

First, your definition of "intelligence".
If you think the word is badly defined, you shouldn't have used it.

And define "almost all".
OK, Most of the world's species are things like bacteria, plants, nematodes etc whose lifestyle is such that using resources on any sensible form of intelligence would be counter-productive.

It's not even clear that a brighter sheep would be more successful.
So, for there to be any advantage to intelligence you need a niche in life where brains are worth the expense of running them.
That's top level predators and a few oddities like chimps.



Not "WE can reject" but "I [you] can reject". You are an opinion of one. You bring a blunderbuss to a debate of the highest order.

The "we" who can reject your idea are the "we" who can understand basic evolutionary biology.
On a science web page that should be the great majority.


Let us know when you catch up.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 29/09/2019 20:26:37
You can apply the scientific method easily to the question.

Suggest one unique, predictive, testable property or function of your god. Then test it.
I don't think God will give us a portion of his presence to test. Knowing and trusting are alternate to each other. Imagine a baby who will not trust dad, learn from dad, infer from dad unless it is proven under tests. Fast paced love and friendship cannot take place. You can't be filled with all knowledge if you do not trust the holy one when you recognize him. All the info is not trusted as well. All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.

You can have evidence in prophecy, and you can experience God's presence, drink it in, but that is after trusting usually. After an near death experience, many people return to life knowing there is an afterlife and spirit and soul and other entities like God, angels and demons. But they can't prove it to anyone else.

Well said.

What changed my mind WAS personal observation. Experiencing events that cannot be explained by physics.

On one occassion I knew with absolute certainty of a near future event and took precautions to avoid getting involved. A biker passed me and I knew he would die up ahead.  The shock of knowing was like the shock of realizing you have left a pot of oil on a hot stove. I slowed down so as to not ride over him after he died. It seems he had a heart attack and lay dead in the middle of the road a few kilometers ahead.

I "visited" my late wife in the after-life. No form and no gender. Heaven and hell are not two places. It is a continuum from very good to very bad. And it is a mental state. My late wife was in the very good part. I thought one could imagine a state with no fears, no pain, no hunger, no death, no taxes. It is impossible. One can only experience it.

I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems. For six weeks. When the Cape cobra slithered under my feet one night while I was listing the problems to my late wife in an email I got the message to act. A man had committed suicide outside the house and it was traumatic to his friends and the community. I communicated with his spirit and did as he wanted. To explain he had not realized what would happen and he wanted me to apologize. I did and things changed positively. I learned spirit is an intermediate form between soul and body. Spirit takes form and decays. Usually very quickly.

I could go on.

One communication (with confirmatory events following it) was that there will soon be a big reduction in population. God will not let humankind destroy the world he has made. "Soon" meaning in time to make a difference.

Sometimes the observations have to be done by people and not instruments. Anecdotal yes - but what else does humankind have when God will not allow direct proof of his/her existence.

What I hypothesized was applying logic to question of God and looking at the evidence of various religions - and the wonders humankind has discovered. We are sufficiently advanced to understand the concept of virtual reality. In programming there are classes and constructs which take form when used with parameters. Souls are like that.

I have had a chance to lucid dream and realized there is only one test to check if I was asleep and that was to will something impossible to happen. Pinching myself did not work. It is impossible to prove we are not in "virtual reality" in the mind of an Infinite Intelligence, and that God might be part of that virtual reality. As such, miracles are possible but it seem to be fairly rare, except for personal ones experienced by the faithful (and some others).
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/09/2019 22:06:34
I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems.

On a science site?
Really?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 30/09/2019 05:12:17
All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.
Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 30/09/2019 05:41:43
All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.
Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems

God and the psychic world operate according to a set of rules. Much like the real world does. Getting rich is selfish and your request will not be granted. A prayer group for a deserving person is much more likely to succeed in modest ways.

There are huge numbers of frauds who operate using people's greed. It is one way to tell who they are. Another example is tales of direct conversations and visits to God such as told by Wendy Alec. It just does not happen although people really want to believe it does. People want to hear stories confirming the supernatural and they lose their skepticism.

I had no control over the psychic events that happened to me. They were few and random but after a long time (when I was in my sixties) I could see a pattern of learning. That is the science part. Observing and making deductions that are not contradictory or illogical.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 30/09/2019 09:11:53
All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.
Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems

God and the psychic world operate according to a set of rules. Much like the real world does. Getting rich is selfish and your request will not be granted. A prayer group for a deserving person is much more likely to succeed in modest ways.

There are huge numbers of frauds who operate using people's greed. It is one way to tell who they are. Another example is tales of direct conversations and visits to God such as told by Wendy Alec. It just does not happen although people really want to believe it does. People want to hear stories confirming the supernatural and they lose their skepticism.

I had no control over the psychic events that happened to me. They were few and random but after a long time (when I was in my sixties) I could see a pattern of learning. That is the science part. Observing and making deductions that are not contradictory or illogical.
What if I pledge to donate all of that money to charities to save starving children in developing countries?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 30/09/2019 11:13:36
All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.
Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems

God and the psychic world operate according to a set of rules. Much like the real world does. Getting rich is selfish and your request will not be granted. A prayer group for a deserving person is much more likely to succeed in modest ways.

There are huge numbers of frauds who operate using people's greed. It is one way to tell who they are. Another example is tales of direct conversations and visits to God such as told by Wendy Alec. It just does not happen although people really want to believe it does. People want to hear stories confirming the supernatural and they lose their skepticism.

I had no control over the psychic events that happened to me. They were few and random but after a long time (when I was in my sixties) I could see a pattern of learning. That is the science part. Observing and making deductions that are not contradictory or illogical.
What if I pledge to donate all of that money to charities to save starving children in developing countries?

It comes down to your motivation. If you are trying to test the existence of God, that is not allowed. If you want to get fame and recognition, that again is a selfish act. God wants people to strive to do good - not fill out an application form. God only intervenes for small personal requests that are easy to do and difficult to prove his/her existence, or the intervention is to guide the destiny of humankind.

These last interventions can different forms. One is that he can do nothing to prevent a pandemic like the Black Plague. Another is that he can stop a pandemic from spreading at a time it would direct humankind in the wrong direction. He is going to do nothing to stop the pending die-off which has already started but people are ignoring it and will ignore it until too late.

Most big interventions look natural. The extinction of the dinosaurs is an example.

Note that my hypothesis of God being part of the virtual reality means that God has limitations as does Satan. The Infinite Intelligence can allow God to do just about anything, and know just about anything, so my hypothesis does not interfere with how religions view God. It does explain the limitations of God despite his enormous ability to be powerful and all knowing. It explains why evil exists in the form of Satan.

I experienced the Infinite Intelligence when I was in my twenties. My studies of various religions recently made me aware of the Hindu concept of Brahman which is similar.

I also experienced being judged after death. I learned there is no argument. All is known. Once I was sent back because I was lacking achievement (either good or bad). The other time I was terminated permanently (but woke the next morning because it was a lesson). The lesson here is that souls are not necessarily eternal. Having experienced death twice in my dreams (painful sword in the neck and sword in the gut), I guess that re-incarnation of souls is possible. Re-incarnation makes sense. Souls evolve as species evolve. Otherwise there would be enormous number of souls just hanging around. Even with reincarnation, people should follow the teachings of Jesus and not look down upon a suffering person as one being taught Karma.

The souls direct the growing spirit to guide the growing physical.  One does not come back in a lesser form. This is needed for the formation of the brain which cannot follow genetic code to form the structures needed. Simply too complex. The soul does the fine tuning and detail, and does some subtle influence throughout life. That quiet voice or that intuition at times.

Suffering is thus temporary. Even the death of children or babies means the soul gets another chance.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 30/09/2019 14:15:01
I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems.

On a science site?
Really?

Isn't that the sort of thing Carl Jung experienced before he devised modern psychology? Paranormal psychology.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 30/09/2019 14:16:54
All knowledge and wisdom and prophecy is invalid and even if you see an angel you don't know what to make of it.
Perhaps I'll ask about some unsolved problems in mathematics and get 1 million dollar of easy money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems
It seems the people who have positive NDEs want to be closer to people than money and spend it on them and work closely with needy people.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 30/09/2019 15:23:29
I began living in a farm cottage which I realized had a bad spirit causing daily problems.

On a science site?
Really?

Isn't that the sort of thing Carl Jung experienced before he devised modern psychology? Paranormal psychology.

Just have a look at the books that propose the Prime Cause other than God. The understanding of our universe must necessarily try to understand and find answers to the underlying reason for our existence and the underlying reason for the laws of physics. The concept of God is one proposition, and one has to look for clues as to his existence.

Mental telepathy is another phenomenon that I have experienced reasonably often. Quite dramatically at one time in my early forties.

As a teenager I ran an experiment by telling a friend many houses away to check and remember the time. They were going to bed and got up to see the time. They said that they not only felt compelled to look at the time (the time I was thinking of) and felt it was important but went to the kitchen clock to be sure that it was correct.

Also as a teenager, I hypnotized a person who could read minds even if the other people were in another room. When the person was able to accurately predict a sequence of events in the next hour (the arrival of a friend, what they would say, what they would wear, and why they had decided to come). There were no phones in the area (early 1960 in Zimbabwe) and there was no pre-arrangement. Waiting for this to happen meant I would be a half hour late to meet my mother who insisted on promptness. The person told me my mother would be 35 minutes late. It got too spooky for me and others and I stopped experimenting.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/09/2019 20:36:59
A prayer group for a deserving person is much more likely to succeed in modest ways.

https://xkcd.com/285/
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 01/10/2019 05:13:47
It comes down to your motivation. If you are trying to test the existence of God, that is not allowed. If you want to get fame and recognition, that again is a selfish act. God wants people to strive to do good - not fill out an application form. God only intervenes for small personal requests that are easy to do and difficult to prove his/her existence, or the intervention is to guide the destiny of humankind.

These last interventions can different forms. One is that he can do nothing to prevent a pandemic like the Black Plague. Another is that he can stop a pandemic from spreading at a time it would direct humankind in the wrong direction. He is going to do nothing to stop the pending die-off which has already started but people are ignoring it and will ignore it until too late.

Most big interventions look natural. The extinction of the dinosaurs is an example.

Note that my hypothesis of God being part of the virtual reality means that God has limitations as does Satan. The Infinite Intelligence can allow God to do just about anything, and know just about anything, so my hypothesis does not interfere with how religions view God. It does explain the limitations of God despite his enormous ability to be powerful and all knowing. It explains why evil exists in the form of Satan.

I experienced the Infinite Intelligence when I was in my twenties. My studies of various religions recently made me aware of the Hindu concept of Brahman which is similar.

I also experienced being judged after death. I learned there is no argument. All is known. Once I was sent back because I was lacking achievement (either good or bad). The other time I was terminated permanently (but woke the next morning because it was a lesson). The lesson here is that souls are not necessarily eternal. Having experienced death twice in my dreams (painful sword in the neck and sword in the gut), I guess that re-incarnation of souls is possible. Re-incarnation makes sense. Souls evolve as species evolve. Otherwise there would be enormous number of souls just hanging around. Even with reincarnation, people should follow the teachings of Jesus and not look down upon a suffering person as one being taught Karma.

The souls direct the growing spirit to guide the growing physical.  One does not come back in a lesser form. This is needed for the formation of the brain which cannot follow genetic code to form the structures needed. Simply too complex. The soul does the fine tuning and detail, and does some subtle influence throughout life. That quiet voice or that intuition at times.

Suffering is thus temporary. Even the death of children or babies means the soul gets another chance.
You can start a new religion since your doctrines are significantly different than any religion that I know.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 01/10/2019 05:43:51
[snip]
You can start a new religion since your doctrines are significantly different than any religion that I know.

Nothing that I have said has not been said by others at some time or another. I said that all religions have some truth. They should be more tolerant of each other.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 01/10/2019 08:03:59
[snip]
You can start a new religion since your doctrines are significantly different than any religion that I know.

Nothing that I have said has not been said by others at some time or another. I said that all religions have some truth. They should be more tolerant of each other.
That's also true for currently existing religions. They picked parts of older religion's believes and their contemporary cultures and then combined to form new belief systems.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 01/10/2019 09:34:21
[snip]
You can start a new religion since your doctrines are significantly different than any religion that I know.

Nothing that I have said has not been said by others at some time or another. I said that all religions have some truth. They should be more tolerant of each other.
That's also true for currently existing religions. They picked parts of older religion's believes and their contemporary cultures and then combined to form new belief systems.

Very true. Animism came first where spirit infused everything - Shaman as leader/spirit guide. The Native Americans have Great Spirit but are Shamanistic. The Greeks, Romans and Viking came up with families of Gods. The Zoroastrians came up with one God. There was interaction between them and Hindus. The Jews borrowed from the Zoroastrians during their captivity under them. The Christians added to the Old Testament and had the Council of Nicea vote that Jesus was God so that Rome could accept the religion. Islam used the Old and New Testaments for the religious part (Jesus being the greatest prophet but not God) and added rules for society. Buddha taught a way of life (not a religion). Confucius did the same. The Tao was also a way of life. Buddhism took elements from Hinduism and spread as a religion to Tibet, China, and Japan. Zen Buddhism is a meditative art and Shinto (animism) is still the state religion in Japan. The Aztecs and Incas had many gods attached to various entities including celestial objects - they too borrowed.

I find that there are times that the Sun seems to symbolize the presence to God, so it is not far fetched to worship the Sun as the physical embodiment of God.

I was driving to a hospital to visit people who had a relative in hospital with terminal cancer. As I came over the bridge, there was an unusual break in the clouds letting the sun stream down. The radio played "A Whiter Shade of Pale". I checked the time and was certain the person had just died. It was so. These are omens and signs.

There are demons. I went on a course where a young man was possessed by one. My late wife saw the black shadow on his left shoulder. The man got angry and violent at times. He could not understand why his wife and children feared him. I was on a deck holding a short stabbing spear and a war club. I had said that words were stronger than the sword. He got angry at this and tried to take the weapons from me. I resisted and the demon said to me "Kill him". He backed off as I stood my ground. When his turn came to take the weapons he was not allowed to. But I goaded and mocked him as he went through a series of Pilates moves.

Months later we chanced to meet him and his family. He came to me and thanked me for changing his life with the confrontation. His family were now close to him. His wife said that he came back a different man and she thanked me also. The demon was gone.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: stivemorgan on 07/10/2019 09:55:01
Hi there. Very interesting question. I would like to have some proof of God existing. But be careful with such questions. Some god believers can be angry )
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Hayseed on 07/10/2019 12:03:38
The problem with proof, is conviction.  What would you do if you found proof or was given proof?

What would you think of yourself?  Would you change and Worship?  Would all your family and friends? What if you were aware of the truth and still envied this world?   Many have.

What if you showed this proof to the world?   How would the world react?   Proof and truth are denied all the time, it's a human only character.  How many would ignore the spirit of the truth and become fanatical of obeying it.....their version of the truth.  Knowing humans.....there will be versions of this proof.

When the PROOF comes, a sword comes with it.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 07/10/2019 14:28:34
Hi there. Very interesting question. I would like to have some proof of God existing. But be careful with such questions. Some god believers can be angry )

Yes, the opening post was quite provocative. We would all like proof that God existed. So why does he insist (if he/she exists) on remaining unprovable. There is a difference between hidden and unprovable. Provable means that most people would accept as a certainty that God existed. Hidden means that people are not aware of his existence. It seems he remains hidden from some and not from others.

The problem is that if one is skeptical (such as myself) I am not totally convinced (self-proof) of his existence despite quite a lot of events that should leave most with little doubt. I have seen how reality can distort and that one doubts what one perceives in various ways - mostly sight and sound. Even when there is a group of people testifying to the same thing, there is the question of mass illusion.

I am left to assign a probability to God's existence. This is based on two factors. Is my overall belief logically consistent - that is, can it stand the test of others trying to point out contradictions. I believe it can. My belief is based on an assumption that God and his plane of existence would be logical.

The second factor is can one explain the various psychic events using the laws of physics - and I find that one cannot. Most events took place under very calm circumstances, although a couple of them were decidedly unusual - which only added to the strangeness.

The movie "The Matrix" has quite a few things in the story line that seem to be based on the world as we know it. The "deje vu" moment or glitch is one of them. An inconsistency and weirdness. The problem is one cannot test these happenings because they are random and infrequent.

One should ask why God choose to remain unproven. The answer is that humankind would behave quite differently. Some would resign themselves to fate instead of fighting to fix things. I know a family with two teenage daughters who sold everything and waited for God to provide. Friends eventually got tired of supporting them and they realized "God helps those who help themselves". One daughter made a piece of pottery to sell. It was a multi-coloured mini-animal that had strange but cute features. The demand grew and the money rolled in.

I think I see the plan that God has for me, but it is uncertain and filled with twists and turns. But each time I learn a lesson and I think the end result will be what it is supposed to be. But it may not - and may just be my imagination and desires. Still, I work towards the end goal.

You are right correct about people getting upset when their beliefs are challenged. The problem is that humans work towards having an internally consistent picture of things. Inconsistencies are rationalized in some way. But if a basic tenet of their belief system can be shown to be in serious contradiction to another basic tenet, then something has to change. Some people undergo radical change, or go into denial, or make another rationalization.

Take the problem with our physics. One theory works for very small and one for very large. This is an inconsistency. Scientists deal with this by saying we will eventually work out an answer. Believers in God say much the same thing. Proof is in the future.

The existence of dark matter and dark energy is another anomaly. They have been invented to explain observations that do not obey the known laws of physics. God is the explanation for things that also should not happen naturally. Healing of some people is one.

I have a question. What is God going to do about climate change? Is he going to intervene? Surely he would not let humankind destroy themselves and the planet?
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 07/10/2019 15:02:24
The problem with proof, is conviction.  What would you do if you found proof or was given proof?

What would you think of yourself?  Would you change and Worship?  Would all your family and friends? What if you were aware of the truth and still envied this world?   Many have.

What if you showed this proof to the world?   How would the world react?   Proof and truth are denied all the time, it's a human only character.  How many would ignore the spirit of the truth and become fanatical of obeying it.....their version of the truth.  Knowing humans.....there will be versions of this proof.

When the PROOF comes, a sword comes with it.

Nice post. I dealt with some issues in the post before this one.

Proof to many is a scientifically repeatable experiment that is available to anyone and everyone. For example - one says "God, if you exist, lift me up 3 feet off the floor." And lo and behold, it happens. Breaking the laws of physics on demand.

Or put a "prophet" into a sealed room and have him come out with stone tablets with commands on them. This will create doubt unless repeated over and over. And even then there will be the naysayers. Uri Geller was an example of a fake and a fraud who used his wealth to silence opponents. Truly bending metal on demand is not possible. But people want to believe it is not just a trick.

It will not happen. Even if it did, people would then want to know what God expects of them. And this is your variations that one sees in different religions. Often based on what one man says has been revealed to him. The only way out of that is for God to immediately punish an action that is not part of his wishes. So what does God want? Perhaps part of his plan was variation in religion to keep life interesting. And give each religion a piece of the truth.

The punishment of the Aztecs for their human sacrifice was extinction so there might be general influences on doing "the right moral thing". It is often the people in power who make decisions that are not "good", and in fact could be interpreted as being evil despite their affirmations of good intent. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Personally, my experience has been that one does not need a ritual to achieve a psychic result. One needs the intention. My late wife ran a event that changed criminals and violent men into law-abiding citizens. It took only four days. There was some ritual for effect but people were asked to appeal to a Higher Power - whatever that power was. Some were Christian and some had ancestor beliefs. And other religions. It did not matter. The stories of their change were quite startling. The event had a 80% success rate. Like the AA, people had to want to change and were desperate for that change. The reputation of the course was a powerful incentive.

I use Tarot cards now and then. Mostly to help a person with a decision. They are quite accurate for me. One gets the answer one needs, not the answer that might be correct. Once I told a woman I did not know (just a fun afternoon of reading for various people in a group) that the cards said that she hated her husband. I knew the others in the group and said that the cards were probably wrong, and that there might be an influence from a family member that was going through a bitter divorce. She was silent and said nothing. Two weeks later she left her husband and two children. She did indeed hate him but was suppressing it. I did not sense it like a cold reading. The cards and the layout left little doubt. Arranging a deck while shuffling would be against the laws of physics but not so one would notice it. And it leaves plenty of room for doubt.

Then people will want proof that Satan exists. The rabbit hole goes deeper.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 08/10/2019 14:35:51
The problem with proof, is conviction.  What would you do if you found proof or was given proof?

What would you think of yourself?  Would you change and Worship?  Would all your family and friends? What if you were aware of the truth and still envied this world?   Many have.

What if you showed this proof to the world?   How would the world react?   Proof and truth are denied all the time, it's a human only character.  How many would ignore the spirit of the truth and become fanatical of obeying it.....their version of the truth.  Knowing humans.....there will be versions of this proof.

When the PROOF comes, a sword comes with it.
God is transcendent to the universe. His presences fills and surpasses the universe and multiverse. Black holes do not drag or crush him, stars do not burn him, foul things do not stain him... he is, they are inert.

The universe is vast, the multiverse a greater idea, does it matter how big God has to be? Either one or the other is self existent. There is beauty, vastness and order.

It is up to us, now well past the renaissance to be civil, and do better at helping northern Ireland rather than making new infights. The big churches are new orders prioritising peace and good will and unity.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: InTheEnd on 04/11/2019 16:45:31
There is nothing in science that denies the existence of God. What denies the existence of God is the philosophical idea that things happen by chance.
Title: Re: Can science prove God exists?
Post by: CliveG on 05/11/2019 04:42:28
There is nothing in science that denies the existence of God. What denies the existence of God is the philosophical idea that things happen by chance.

Very nicely summed up. Some in the scientific community try to use logical argument to demonstrate contradiction in mainstream religion - mostly Christian. Some say that "unprovable" is the same as non-existence - which denies personal experience.

Science recognizes everything as having a cause except the prime cause. "Chance" and "nothing" are not examples of prime causes. The Ultimate Intelligence that I hypothesized (and experienced) is a logical prime cause - and God is a logical consequence. Such a hypothesis does not diminish God. Simply rationalizes and removes inconsistencies. He can still have almost all the attributes and be the "Creator" of the known universe.