Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Petrochemicals on 12/10/2019 18:03:05

Title: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 12/10/2019 18:03:05
Light being the benchmark for maximum speed in peoples minds, is a mysterious thing, from the discreet packet wave phenomena of the photo electric effect, to the relativity based effects noticed.

However, it is still mysterious, its mass is not known in certainty. The michelson morley experiment prompted the thought in one observer that light was somehow "pre-programmed " .

So the question is this, is light an independent entity or is it somehow an observed effect of a larger mechanism.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: yor_on on 13/10/2019 07:12:39
Pretty sweet question Petrochemicals. My own take on it is that it is a part of something more.
That's what the two slit experiment tells us, and so called 'delayed choices'.

What it do is to present us with a 'speed', and looked at from my perspective a way to to define durations (aka a 'local clock'). That one seems to hold true at any experiment, but when it comes to how it will express itself in a outcome, as particles or waves is related to more circumstances than 'light' itself.
=

It's a little more complicated than that though as 'light' is a local definition, when it comes to 'speeds' and 'clocks' both. The same as we find other objects to have a varying time and so 'speed of light' when defined from our own local 'time and clock'. To it we can add that the only way you measure a light particle or wave is at a outcome. You don't see 'light' propagating, you see its results.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Colin2B on 13/10/2019 09:09:29
So the question is this, is light an independent entity or is it somehow an observed effect of a larger mechanism.
It all depends what level you are talking about. Clearly, light is just a part of the overall electromagnetic spectrum, which is an effect of oscillating electric/magnetic fields. So you would say that light is an observed effect of the laws of electromagnetism. Remember, Einstein’s first paper on relativity dealt with a specific problem in electrodynamics (moving electromagnetic fields) that had been puzzling scientists; it was in that paper where he suggested light does not behave as if propagated in a medium so it’s measured speed is not affected by the emitter or observer. This speed also comes from Maxwell’s equations which are based on the findings of Amper, Faraday, Coulomb and Gauss - all leaders in electromagnetic theory.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Bill S on 13/10/2019 13:02:22
https://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/fundamental_nature_light-75861

Sascha Vongehr has some interesting comments.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: yor_on on 13/10/2019 16:40:19
He's interesting Bill. Time as such is a local definition, invariant locally. It questions what we mean by defining something a locally invariant. Or if you like , lifting up repeatable experiments to 'universal constants'. If you turn your head all universal constants are representations of that idea.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: CPT ArkAngel on 13/10/2019 17:54:17
Photons are emitted by massive particles. Massive particles can only have a speed lower than C relative to any other massive particle. Absolute zero is unreachable because you can't isolate a system entirely and the temperature is the relative motion. There is always a relative motion to something else. Moreover, there is no uniform motion when you consider all matter like the Earth-sun-moon-mars-galaxies and so on. Therefore, photons are real...

The uniform motion is relative to the ensemble, not relative to any singular element.

To answer the original question, photons are not independent particles, but they are connected differently. On one side, they have the freedom to move at the speed of light; but on the other side, they are slaves to the vacuum fields in front of them because their own fields move with them at the speed of light. Their fields have no influence in front of them because there is no extension. That is why photons travel in straight lines. Here, a straight line means the path of least resistance not a geometrical straight line..
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: yor_on on 13/10/2019 18:23:35
In a way CPT, then we have 'energy' that might be called a coin of exchange, as JP defined it. But at a origin you don't have particles of proper mass. You have this idea of 'energy' instead creating proper mass.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: CPT ArkAngel on 13/10/2019 18:31:10
If there is no reference and all energy is photons and photons are not real, then the Universe is not real...  :o
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: yor_on on 13/10/2019 19:23:03
Maybe

But if it isn't then what is real? I have to go out from myself and I think I exist. I'm sure you do the same which makes it two of us :)

 'photons' are a equivalence to energy as I think of it, and they are also a local effect in that no matter if they propagate or not the only way we can experimentally prove them are at their impact. There is no way to define them when 'propagating' experimentally.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: CPT ArkAngel on 13/10/2019 20:10:35
Their impact proves they are real. If you understand my prior explanations, you have to conclude they are real. There is no reference frame where a photon will disappear completely due to relativity. This is a misunderstanding based on an incomplete set of postulates. In a sense, motion is relative but real... It was, it is or it will be relative to everything else.

Special relativity cannot answer the question because it is not consistent with reality, GR proved it.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: HelpMe929 on 14/10/2019 07:30:46
Is this a good time to ask about something I came across recently in a popular science video somewhere....

Concerning a particular type of particle which, when its 'state' was changed then a matching particle's state also changed - instantaneously, no matter how widely seperated in distance (thus appearing to break the lightspeed limit).

Sorry I forget the details and the video, because I didn't pay too much attention to it. But just wondering if this rings any bells here?
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Colin2B on 14/10/2019 10:11:54
Concerning a particular type of particle which, when its 'state' was changed then a matching particle's state also changed - instantaneously, no matter how widely seperated in distance (thus appearing to break the lightspeed limit).
You are hearing about entangled particles. Difficult to describe in detail, but it has to do with correlation and quantum statistics and also what we know about the particles.
An analogy: lets say a friend puts a rh glove in one envelope and a lh glove in another but doesn’t tell you which is which. We could say the contents of those envelopes are entangled and there is a correlation between the ‘state’ of the gloves in each envelope.
So, you now send one envelope to another person on other side of the world and keep one. If you open your envelope (measure the state of your glove), you instantly know the state of the other glove, but nothing has changed other than your knowledge. We can do the same with particles eg electrons or photons and when we measure the state of one we can be sure of the state of the other.
However, quantum statistics are more complicated than everyday statistics so this is a fascinating area of misunderstanding, and you will need some maths to understand what is happening.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: alancalverd on 14/10/2019 10:32:25
The analogy breaks down (as do all classical analogies of quantum phenomena, eventually) if you alter the state of your glove, say by turning it inside out. According to QM, and indeed demonstrably, the other glove alters its state too, and in a shorter time than it would take for a photon to travel between them.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Colin2B on 14/10/2019 12:51:34
The analogy breaks down (as do all classical analogies of quantum phenomena, eventually)
The problem with all classical analogies of quantum, as you say and also the difficulty of trying to explain to someone with the level of experience as @HelpMe929
A similar problem is with comparing classical and quantum probabilities. We tend to think of spin, for example, as up or down (like a coin, heads or tails) but, as you know, the quantum description is much more complex.
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Janus on 14/10/2019 18:13:16
Is this a good time to ask about something I came across recently in a popular science video somewhere....

Concerning a particular type of particle which, when its 'state' was changed then a matching particle's state also changed - instantaneously, no matter how widely seperated in distance (thus appearing to break the lightspeed limit).

Sorry I forget the details and the video, because I didn't pay too much attention to it. But just wondering if this rings any bells here?
Like as already been alluded to such "quantum entanglement" can't be used to send actual information faster than c (speed of light in a vacuum.)  Using the glove example.  In QM, until you open an envelope, not only do you not know whether it contains a LH or RH glove, but neither does the "glove" know* which it is. It is in some undetermined state.  When you open your envelope and your glove "decides" what it is, the other entangled glove "decides" its the other.
The problem is that when you open your envelope to ans see a LH glove, you don't know if that is because you opened the envelope and set off the decision making process, or if someone else had already opened the other envelope, and that event decided what glove you would see. It would take some slower than light communication between you and where the other envelope is to determine this.  The same goes with the changing of state (turning the glove inside out).  You don't know if the inside-out glove was the original unchanged state or the "changed" state without communicating with the other end by some slower than light means.

* This is not to say that you could actually do this with an actual pair of gloves, the glove here is just stand-in for a subatomic particle. One of the reasons quantum behavior seems so strange to us is that by the time you get to the macroscopic scales these effects "average out" to being immeasurable, and how objects appear to behave at this scale is what we accept as "natural".
Title: Re: Is light an independent entity, or is it an effect of a larger mechanism ?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 01/11/2019 04:56:15
Facinating stuff light doesnt exist eh !, anything about higgs boson condensates ?