Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Dave Lev on 06/02/2020 18:08:03

Title: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 06/02/2020 18:08:03
What is the real size of our Universe?
Is it Finite or Infinite?
Few years ago, our scientists were positively sure that the Universe is finite.
They had the impression that as the Big Bang took place only 13.8 BY ago, the Universe couldn't be infinite.
I do recall that they have even estimated that the maximal size of the universe is about 92 BLY.
However, now they assume that it could be/is infinite.
Why is it?
What kind of evidence/observation they have discovered to support that new idea?
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 10/02/2020 12:49:55
Let's focus on the Black body radiation in the CMB:
Black Body
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
 
"An ideal body is now defined, called a blackbody. A blackbody allows all incident radiation to pass into it (no reflected energy) and internally absorbs all the incident radiation (no energy transmitted through the body). This is true for radiation of all wavelengths and for all angles of incidence. Hence the blackbody is a perfect absorber for all incident radiation.[10]"
In the article it is also stated that:
"An approximate realization of a black body as a tiny hole in an insulated enclosure"
 
1.This insulated enclosure could be a box at any size. As long as it is insulated enclosure  box, we should get the Black body radiation inside that box.  Let's assume that we can set a box of isolated enclosure in the open space at the size of 1BLY.  The Milky way will be located inside that box. It is quite clear that the internal radiation will be a black body radiation.
 
2. Let's set 1000 1BLY boxes next to each with a similar density. So, we get a bar of 1000BLY. As the radiation at each 1BLY box is black body, than if we eliminate the walls between the boxes in that bar, we still should get a black body radiation inside that 1000 BLY Bar. So, as long as the 1000Bly bar is isolated enclosure  than we must get the black body radiation..
 
3. Now, let's add to this bar an infinite no of 1BLY boxes, and eliminate the walls between the boxes, Therefore,  we should get an infinite bar (with the same density at any location in the bar). In this case it is clear that as long the infinite bar is still isolated enclosure  we should get a black body radiation in that bar.
 
4. However, as it goes to the infinity, it is clear that even if we open the walls of the last end box (which is located at the infinity), it shouldn't have any negative impact on the internal black body radiation in that bar (assuming that we measure the radiation far enough from that last open walls). So, we have got an infinite bar with open ended walls which still has an internal black body radiation. Let's call it B- bar.
 
5. If we now set an infinite number of B- bar, one above the other. We should get an infinite rectangle. We already know that this infinite rectangle has an open ended (Left & right) and it has a black body radiation.
In the same token, if we open the Up/down edges (at the infinity) we still should have a black body radiation in that infinite rectangle. Let's call it C-rectangle
 
6. If we set an infinite number of C- rectangle, one after the other. We should get an infinite cube (It goes to the infinity in all directions.) This cube goes to the infinity and has an open ended at all directions.
So, technically, there is no end for this cube, it is an infinite cube and therefore it should hold an internal black body radiation.
 
Conclusions:

The black body radiation in our Universe proves that it MUST be infinite.
Any location at this universe is located at the infinity from any edge. Therefore, any location in that universe could be considered as a center. In the same token we should get a black body radiation at any point.

Therefore, Kryptid is fully correct in his following message:

As far as we can tell, the Universe as a whole doesn't have a center. Alternatively, you could argue that every point in space everywhere is the "center".

However, that could be correct ONLY if our universe is infinite.
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Origin on 10/02/2020 13:58:41
Let's focus on the Black body radiation in the CMB:
Black Body
https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Black_body
I do not understand your logic.  You say you want to discuss black body radiation but then begin by defining a black body.  A black body is a body that absorbs all radiation, it is an idealized notion, black bodies do not exist.
Black body radiation is the radiation that is emitted from a body due to the bodies temperature, like the sun for instance.

You talk about black bodies that are billions of light years long and everywhere or something, but black bodies are not about black body radiation.  The CMB black body radiation is about the temperature of the early universe when it became transparent - nothing to do with black bodies.

Maybe I am missing something here, could you explain in general how you think black bodies and black body radiation the CMB are related.

Edit:  oops, I meant the CMB
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 11/02/2020 15:17:22
Maybe I am missing something here, could you explain in general how you think black bodies and black body radiation the CMB are related.

Thanks for your question
I discuss about black body radiation in the CMB.
We all know that the CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548.
Our scientists want to believe that the CMB is electromagnetic radiation as a remnant from an early stage of the universe, also known as "relic radiation".
This is totally incorrect.
The CMB is the current faint cosmic background radiation filling all space.
It is a direct product of the radiation from all the objects in our infinite space.
You have used an excellent example:
 
Black body radiation is the radiation that is emitted from a body due to the bodies temperature, like the sun for instance.
However, Lets try to understand the how black body radiation works at the Sun.
It is quite clear that as long as the radiation is at the surface of the Sun, than it has a black body radiation.
However, as it is emitted from the Sun, the black body radiation is lost.
Therefore, the surface of the Sun acts as isolated enclosure.
In the same token, also in atmosphere of our planet we find a black body radiation.
So, that Atmosphere is another example of black body radiation in isolated enclosure .

Therefore, our universe could hold black body radiation ONLY in the following conditions:
1.   If it is Finite It must be in isolated enclosure. Therefore, there must be walls around the Universe. What is the chance for that?
2.   If it is Infinite As I have proved, infinite Universe acts as a finite Universe in isolated enclosure.
Conclusion:
The ONLY possibility to see a black body radiation in the CMB is when the Universe is INFINITE
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Halc on 11/02/2020 20:21:12
Our scientists want to believe that [whatever]
This is totally incorrect.
Get used to this phrasing people.  This bridge troll will not take any corrections from other posters. Your responses might benefit the general reader, but not Dave, who has never learned from one. He displays only a rudimentary acquaintance with both arithmetic and logic. See his prior thread as evidence of this, as well as his conclusion in the prior post.
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 13/02/2020 09:06:06
Get used to this phrasing people.  This bridge troll will not take any corrections from other posters.
Dear Halc

If I understand it correctly, our scientists do not want to deal with the real size of our universe.
In the last few years they have discovered that there is high possibility that our Universe is actually infinite.
However, the BBT is a theory for a finite Universe.
So, if they will claim that the Universe is infinite, it could break out the base for the BBT.
Therefore, they just claim that it could be finite or infinite. Nice idea to keep the BBT.
Never the less - This is a violation of real science.
You must take final decision.
What is the real size of our Universe???
If our scientists do understand that the Universe is Infinite than they must say it clear and loud.
Then, they have to show how the BBT works at infinite Universe..

Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Origin on 13/02/2020 12:26:01
It is quite clear that as long as the radiation is at the surface of the Sun, than it has a black body radiation.
However, as it is emitted from the Sun, the black body radiation is lost.
It is quite clear that your statement is nonsense.
If I understand it correctly, our scientists do not want to deal with the real size of our universe.
You do not it understand correctly.
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: puppypower on 13/02/2020 13:40:36
What is the real size of our Universe?
Is it Finite or Infinite?
Few years ago, our scientists were positively sure that the Universe is finite.
They had the impression that as the Bing Bang took place only 13.8 BY ago, the Universe couldn't be infinite.
However, now they assume that it could be/is infinite.
Why is it?
What kind of evidence/observation they have discovered to support that new idea?

I think the size of the universe depends on how you define the universe. The inertial universe; matter from the BB, appears to be finite. On the other hand, if by the universe you mean, also the source of primordial atom. That definition could be an infinite universe. The problem is, existing theory cannot explain how to form the primordial atom of the BB from scratch. From scratch would tells us things about the larger universe. That limitation makes it difficult to determine if the source universe is infinite.
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 19/02/2020 06:19:35
Thanks puppypower for your great answer.
I think the size of the universe depends on how you define the universe. The inertial universe; matter from the BB, appears to be finite.
So, It is quite clear that based on the BBT, the Universe MUST be finite, as it is impossible to set an Infinite Universe in 13.8 BY (even if the expansion/inflation is faster than the speed of light).
On the other hand, if by the universe you mean, also the source of primordial atom. That definition could be an infinite universe
This message is not clear to me.
Why our scientists consider a possibility for an Infinite Universe?
I do remember that just few years ago, they were positivly sure that the Universe is Finite. They even estimated that its maximal radius should be in the range of about 92 Bly.
So, What kind of evidence/observation they have found in the last few years to support the new assumption that the Universe could be Infinite?
The problem is, existing theory cannot explain how to form the primordial atom of the BB from scratch. From scratch would tells us things about the larger universe. That limitation makes it difficult to determine if the source universe is infinite.
Yes, that is fully correct.
Do you mean that as our scientists stuck with the BBT they can't really explain how could it be that our universe is infinite.
Therefore, as long as they can't explain how the BBT can set an infinite Universe, they will continue to believe that the Universe is finite even if they have a solid evidence/observation that it is infinite.
So - could it be that the main problem is that our scientists continue to hold the BBT forever and ever?
Why they reject any other explanation/theory?
Theory D is the Ultimate Theory for Our Universe.
It gives a simple explanation how our Infinite Universe had been evolved from a finite Universe.
Actually, there is a room for the Big Bang. However, it could also be a small bang.
All we need is a single BH that has the ability to generate new particles pair.
After infinite time you get our wonderful infinite Universe.
Theory D gives a perfect solution for every observation that we have!
It is so simple and easy.
So, why our scientists do not wish to open their mind to the Ultimate theory for our Universe???


Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 23/03/2020 05:10:42
There really isn't any point adding 14 and 15 when 1 is clearly wrong.

Pease read this explanation about black body radiation and let me know if it meets your request.
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Starlight on 24/03/2020 14:08:45
What is the real size of our Universe?
Is it Finite or Infinite?
Few years ago, our scientists were positively sure that the Universe is finite.
They had the impression that as the Big Bang took place only 13.8 BY ago, the Universe couldn't be infinite.
I do recall that they have even estimated that the maximal size of the universe is about 92 BLY.
However, now they assume that it could be/is infinite.
Why is it?
What kind of evidence/observation they have discovered to support that new idea?

A visual universe is a limitation within a bigger picture of a universe .  A visual universe expands into a bigger unseen universe , the laws of physics requiring surrounding space for something to expand . Finite has boundaries , a boundary is an after and after boundaries there is generally more space . Space , boundary , space , boundary , space !  How many times could you repeat that , gives you the answer you require .  ::)
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 24/03/2020 14:43:10
A visual universe is a limitation within a bigger picture of a universe .  A visual universe expands into a bigger unseen universe , the laws of physics requiring surrounding space for something to expand
That is perfectly ok.
Finite has boundaries , a boundary is an after and after boundaries there is generally more space .
What do you mean by - Finite has boundary?
Why do you think that there is a boundary for a finite Universe?
If there is, what kind of boundary there is around that finite Universe?
Few years ago, our scientists have estimated that the size of the whole finite Universe is 92 Bly, as that is the maximal size that the universe can get from a big bang.
What is the current estimation for the universe size?
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Starlight on 25/03/2020 12:37:40
[
What do you mean by - Finite has boundary?
Why do you think that there is a boundary for a finite Universe?
If there is, what kind of boundary there is around that finite Universe?


Anything that is  finite has a boundary , an end ! You know a cardboard box has sides that enclose the space inside , making the space inside the box finite .  Universally finite is an observation , there doesn't necessarily have to be an end that has physical structure .


Quote
Few years ago, our scientists have estimated that the size of the whole finite Universe is 92 Bly, as that is the maximal size that the universe can get from a big bang.


The Universe is ∞

The visual universe is how far we can see

The two terms are very different !   ???
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Dave Lev on 26/03/2020 15:41:19
The Universe is ∞
The visual universe is how far we can see
The two terms are very different !   
Yes, that is clear.
So, you agree that our real Universe is Infinite in its size.
However, don't you agree that if it infinite in its size it also must be infinite in its age?
Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Starlight on 28/03/2020 11:43:53

However, don't you agree that if it infinite in its size it also must be infinite in its age?

What is age ?  A process of recording time !  Is time applicable to something that is infinite ?

In a sense , yes I agree it must be infinite in its ''age''  , with no beginning or end !



Title: Re: Finite or Infinite Universe?
Post by: Lance Canham on 08/04/2020 20:03:37
The Universe Is Infinite. Everything You see Infers it is. Physics made a huge mistake. There were 2 ways to interpret what we see visually in the local( I mean visual) Universe.  Many Many smart people took along time to accept that the Universe Sprang from this Small but finite spec. It goes against everything you would generally accept. It took some 40 years.

There were reasons it took so long, The most important is that it was wrong. A set of equations is held up like its god but it fails to tell us What expansion is and what causes it. Let alone we find this stuff should be all around us but we can not find it. Yet we know its there The current view simply can not explain it.

The set of equations is wrong Part or in whole.

There were 2 ways to look at expansion and the visual we see.  TBH I feel like I see the world is round and every one else sees it flat.

the Balloon is infinite and you don't blow it up. You pinch it all over. You see the pinches in the local universe. That galaxy clusters, The galaxies them selves. You can not expand an infinite universe.

it is an illusion, when you place your self in the infinite balloon and pinch it. The space compresses in the  gravity wells but gets stretched between them. They are held in place by the gravity of everything all around them stretching out to infinity. They are Anchored. If not the Universe would fall in on itself.

The universe will not end it will evolve. 

Let that sink in and what happens when everything that can fall into black holes has, Expansion slows. Now these things pulled apart through the stretching can now begin to pool on a whole new level. Expansion again increases. When You accept the Infinity of it and understand expansion you will have questions on inflation and realise there should be something there we can not see for obvious reason yet detect through its Gravitational effect which we see.

Expansion, Dark energy, Inflation, DArk matter,  Simply by asking if some other way to explain how the visual exists with out Breaking Most of Physics, No new force needed.