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On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: RTCPhysics on 23/04/2020 13:41:58

Title: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: RTCPhysics on 23/04/2020 13:41:58
The aim of this article is to explain why matter and antimatter do not occur in equal amounts throughout the universe and why a collision between a particle and its anti-particle, do not just deflect each other, but can transform themselves into particles of radiant energy.

One of the conundrums of matter and anti-matter particles, as they have been listed in the Standard Model of Physics, is why nature has created a universe of stars, purely from matter, rather than a 50% split between matter and anti-matter.
Another conundrum is to explain why there are two forces, electric and magnetic, which operate in both matter and anti-matter particles, but have the same physical capability of attraction and repulsion.
 
The third and final unexpected feature of matter and anti-matter particles, is that they do not just deflect each other upon collision, but appear to transform themselves into photons moving at the speed of light.

To resolve this functional difference between the forces of particles of matter and anti-matter, it will require a different conceptual explanation of the standard theories of matter and anti-matter.

But to achieve this goal, the analysis is made simpler by restricting the particles of matter and anti-matter to the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

The roles of the neutron, the neutrino, the quarks and their antiparticles, are not required for the resolution of the anti-matter conundrum.
 
In addition, the strong, weak, W, Z and g forces are also not required.
The physical characteristics of the proton and the electron in matter and anti-matter, is that they both have mass, spin, electric charge and a magnetic field.

There are only two forces that are integral with the proton and its anti-proton plus the electron and its anti-electron, which create the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

These are the positive and negative electric forces and the spin up and spin down magnetic field rings.

But the first step to define anti-matter is to review the concept of positive and negative electric charges, as they have been viewed as the forces of the proton and the electron particles, which binds them together to form the hydrogen and the anti-hydrogen atoms.

Electric Charge

Despite the proton and the electron having very different masses, the protonís positive electric charge and the electronís negative electric charge have exactly the same magnitude of electric force.

As a consequence, the electric forces creating the bond between the proton and the electron in a hydrogen atom, is exactly the same as that between the anti-proton and the anti-electron in the anti-hydrogen atom.

Although the force exerted by an individual electron and a proton have been measured, the number of electric field lines that are dispatched from the proton and electron in the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atom, have never been diagnosed.

But this is not a straight forward task as the force field of the electron are invisible and there is no technical means of highlighting them as individual lines of electrical energy.

As a consequence, it is not known what the structure of their force fields actually are, whether they are straight lines, waves or even circles.

However, whatever their shape, the individual force lines, emitted by both the positive and negative electric charges to attract or repel other charged particles, are traditionally viewed as emitting force lines in all directions from the centre point of the electric charge.

This creates a spherical shape, which expands as the force field stretches out in all directions to infinity.

But without visible field lines, it is unknown how the electric forces of the proton and the electron interact, whether they are completely absorbed, wrapped around each other or partially pass through each other in order to retain their ability to attract or repel other charged particles in the vicinity.
 
In addition, the speed of the electric force field, that acts between the proton and its orbiting electron in the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms is also unknown. It could be either the speed of light or even an infinite speed.

Without this detailed knowledge of the structure of the electric charge and its functioning as a force field, there is no mechanism for determining how the proton and the electron physically bond together to form the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

But there is also another inexplicable aspect of the theory of electrical charge.

It is traditionally assumed that it reduces the magnitude of its force by the square root of the distance from its location.

This reduction in the electric charge, is explained by either a fall in the magnitude of its charge or the spreading out of its lines of force in all directions towards infinity.

However, as the magnitude of the charge is always maintained over time, then the electrical charge must be a perpetual source of energy.

This breaks one of the first laws of physics, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
 
Although we associate electrical energy with many everyday physical phenomenon, such as current in a wire, bolts of lightning, shocks off a car door handle, hair standing upon end, balloons attaching to ceilings, the gold leaf electroscope, we just donít know what the attracting or repelling force generated by them actually is.

The best that we can call electric force is kinetic energy, but this does not help us identify what the structure of an electric charge actually is.

However, the anti-hydrogen atom has been experimentally created within a laboratory, by mixing negative anti-protons with positive electrons.

Hence we know that the anti-hydrogen atom exists, although none have ever existed outside of the laboratories.

But we still donít know how the binding force between the positive and negative electric charges, act to creates the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

Neither do we know how an electron colliding with an anti-electron, undergo annihilation by converting into photons.
 
So the next step is to assess the second attracting and repelling force that also operates in the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms, which is magnetism.

Magnetism.

Just like the electric force, magnetic field lines are also invisible.

But the presence of magnetic force lines can be identified, simply by scattering iron filings on to the magnetic field of a bar magnet or the magnetic field generated by a current in a conducting wired circuit.

It is also known that magnetic rings rotate through a bar magnet with a 50% split between clockwise rotation and anti-clockwise rotation, which provides an example of the structure of matter and anti-matter.

In addition, the rotation of magnetic rings around a current in a wire, can be reversed from clockwise to anti-clockwise by reversing the direction of the current flow in the wired circuit.

Magnetic field lines rotating in the same direction, repel or deflect one another, whereas magnetic field lines rotating in opposite directions attract one another.

The magnetic field is a quantum entity, whose field lines are circular in their nature and finite in their number.

The model used to define the force of magnetism is based upon the existence of a magnetic rings circling individually around the proton and the electron.

Similar to the positive and negative electric charge of electrical energy, the magnetic field rings of the proton and the electron have similar magnitudes of magnetic force , despite the difference in their ring diameters.

In the context of the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms, their magnetic rings are referred to as being in spin-up and spin-down states.

Hence particles with spin-up and spin-down attract each other, whereas particles with the same spin state, repel or deflect one another.

Both protons and electrons obey these rules of magnetic attraction and repulsion.

A mechanical analogy of electron and proton spin behaviour, is the rotation of two cog wheels within the same plane.

If cogs rotate in opposite directions, they mesh together in harmony, but if they rotate in the same direction their cogs clash together, with a joint repelling force.

This clockwise/anti-clockwise structure is evident in the magnetic field of a bar magnet, where half the field lines rotate clockwise and half rotate anti-clockwise, coming together along the North/South axis of their magnetic field.

But the electron and anti-electron are not mechanical cogs.
 
Within the gravity free vacuum of the atom, two repelling electrons or anti-electrons, deflect one of the pair, causing it to flip itself over, bringing the electron pair into a compatible spin-up/spin-down state of attraction, as was first identified by the chemist, Gilbert N Lewis in 1916.

With this understanding of the behaviour of the magnetic field rings around the proton and the electron, the magnetic attraction between a spin-up proton and a spin-down electron occurs, creating the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

Like two rotating cogs, the magnetic field rings of the electron and the proton, rotate together around their rim diameters within the same plane.

The attraction between the two magnetic particles, is kept apart by the diameters of their magnetic field rings.

Hence, the electron in a hydrogen or anti-hydrogen atom, is not required to rotate around its proton with an angular momentum that keeps them separated, as depicted in the traditional model of the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms.

But the magnetic ring carries kinetic energy around its ring as we know from sprinkling iron filings onto a bar magnet or onto the magnetic field around a current in a wire and observing the iron filings being physically moved into the magnetic field rings.

The implication of this circular structure of a magnetic ring circling around the core mass of the proton and the core mass of the electron within the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atom in a vacuum, is that unlike the concept of electric charge, which must generate perpetual energy, it always retains its kinetic energy by constantly circling around itself.

But to function structurally, the ring of the proton and the electron, is itself created by a particle of kinetic energy, which circles around their central core of mass at the speed of light.

If its magnetic ring particle is circling clockwise around the core mass of the proton or the core mass of the electron, it is said to be spin-up.

If the magnetic particle is circling anti-clockwise it is said to be spin-down.

As a consequence, the hydrogen atom with its spin up proton and spin down electron, can be viewed from its opposite side as an anti-hydrogen atom with a spin-down proton and a spin-up electron.
 
The main characteristic that magnetism has, is the two state of rotation of its magnetic ring.
 
As magnetic spin is two sided, both clockwise and anticlockwise at the same time, the concept of equal amounts of matter and antimatter existing in the universe is explained by this physical magnetic structure of the two faces of the hydrogen atom.

Matter and antimatter are no longer defined by positive and negative electric charges, but are defined by the spin-up and spin-down magnetic states of the proton and electron field rings.

This explains how the gold leaf electroscope operates with the addition of spin-up and spin-down magnetic rings.

The presence of spin-up magnetic rings upon the two gold leafís repel them apart, but the subsequent addition of spin-down magnetic rings attracts them together, thereby neutralising the repelling force upon the gold leafís, causing them to collapses back together.
 
But this concept also explains the essence of particle annihilation.

If two electrons, both with their particle rings of kinetic energy in spin-op or spin-down states, meet head-on with enough kinetic energy, their rings are deflected away from each other on a straight line path in opposite directions.

But their core masses continue along their original pathways.

As the two magnetic rings retain their circling motion as they are deflected away in a straight line through space, their circling rings, rotating at the speed of light, creates the wave pattern that is observed in the photon particle.

But the core particles of the colliding electrons, having lost their magnetic rings, travel along their original straight line courses and being neutral and difficult to detect, have the behaviour of a neutrino.

This process of separating the magnetic ring from its core mass is the same for two colliding protons, although the protons core mass is comprised of quarks.
 
This now returns to the conundrum which asks why there are two completely different forces, which both have attaching and repelling capability to binds both the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms together, based upon positive and negative electric charges or spin up and spin down magnetic rings.
 
But both of these forces creating the hydrogen and anti-hydrogen atoms, can be explained by one force, called "universal kinetic energy".

Quick Summary.

The conceptual changes are listed as follows:

The positive and negative electric charges are replaced in the proton and electron by the spin-up and spin down attraction and repulsion of their magnetic ring states.

The magnetic field ring upon the proton and the electron is created by a particle of kinetic energy, which rotates around the core mass of the proton and the electron at the speed of light.

The proton and the electron of the hydrogen atoms, are attracted together in the same plane by the opposing spin-up and spin-down states of their magnetic rings.
 
The distance between the proton and the electron particles in the hydrogen atom is determined by their ring diameters, which rotate together within the same plane.

This replaces the requirement for the angular momentum of the electron.
 
The hydrogen atom has the proton and the electron in spin-up and spin-down states, whereas the reverse side of the hydrogen atom, has the proton in a spin-down state and the electron in a spin-up state.

This explains why the hydrogen atom equally exists as 50% matter and 50% anti-matter.
 
An energetic collision between two electrons, causes both their particle rings of kinetic energy to be released, appearing as circling particles of kinetic energy, travelling at the speed of light in the opposite direction.
 
Whereas the core masses of the proton and the electron, continue upon their original directions, behaving like a neutrino particle.
 
But both of these forces creating the current in a wire and the rings around the wire, can be explained by one force, termed "universal kinetic energy".
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bobolink on 23/04/2020 14:37:46
I just looked at the summary but here some issues I saw with the first 3 comments in the summary.
The positive and negative electric charges are replaced in the proton and electron by the spin-up and spin down attraction and repulsion of their magnetic ring states.
This idea goes against observation, theory and experimentation.  Why do you think that a proton has a spin up and an electron in an orbital would have a spin down.
If this idea were correct then since a MRI causes the protons in your body to align their spin wouldn't that disrupt the up/down of the atoms and cause them to fall apart making the person evaporate?
The magnetic field ring upon the proton and the electron is created by a particle of kinetic energy, which rotates around the core mass of the proton and the electron at the speed of light.
There is no such thing as a particle of kinetic energy.  That would not be possible.
The proton and the electron of the hydrogen atoms, are attracted together in the same plane by the opposing spin-up and spin-down states of their magnetic rings.
Atoms are not composed of electrons orbiting the proton on a plane like little planets.

Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: acsinuk on 23/04/2020 16:46:31
Interesting idea. Have a look at this video Can the OP draw a sketch of how the forces spin between the central proton and electron enclosure please.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: RTCPhysics on 25/04/2020 10:28:15
1. An MRI image is made by the absorption of photons.
2. The photon is described as a particle.
3. Where did you see the outline of a photon and an electron? 
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 11:31:47
The best that we can call electric force is kinetic energy
No, really, it's not.
1. An MRI image is made by the absorption of photons.
2. The photon is described as a particle.
3. Where did you see the outline of a photon and an electron? 
You forgot to try to look as if you were answering the question.
Would you like to have another go?
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 25/04/2020 12:15:21
In our universe, negative charge is connected to the lower mass election, while positive charge is connected to the heavier mass proton. This difference in natural mass association has an impact on the working and time average magnetic force for each charge.

The larger mass of the proton adds extra inertia and gravitational needs to the positive charge, placing natural lower velocity restraints on positive charge. Magnetism is based on a charge in motion. The time average life of positive charge, in our universe, has less magnetic contribution compared to the electron. We can increase the velocity of the proton in the lab to equal that of the electron, but I was talking about the predominance of naturally occurring charge, and not artificial additives. Human can make water go up hill, but that is not natural. 

The net affect is positive and negative charge will end up with different natural distributions of EM force expression. In terms of time average expressions, negative and positive charge are not equal and opposite. Equal and opposite is a tradition that includes artificial additives.

This brings us back to matter and anti-matter and why so little anti-matter in the natural universe. If we assume the proton and electron is at lowest energy, since these are the final products of a long series of reversible reactions between matter and anti-matter, the terminal natural differences in the time average EM forces, for negative and positive charge, makes antimatter less stable.

The positive charge has been placed in a mass prothesis, as though it has a broken leg. It cannot run with the election under most conditions. This wearing of the brace has a long term impact on  the positive charge, in terms of its time average EM force. One would expect much more specialty in closer interactions, such as within nuclei. This time averaging brings the positive charge closer to unity with the nuclear forces and gravity. Nuke forces have less time average impact on negative charge. While nuclei can absorb lower mass antimatter positrons, and confine them into the higher nucleus mass restrictions of positive charge. 
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 12:19:05
gravitational needs to the positive charge,
What "needs" would a positive charge have?
In particular in what way would they be "gravitational".

You are just posting word salad.
Stop it.
Human can make water go up hill,  
So can a cow taking a piss at the top of a field.

but that is not natural. 
Yes it is.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 25/04/2020 13:06:42
gravitational needs to the positive charge,
What "needs" would a positive charge have?
In particular in what way would they be "gravitational".

You are just posting word salad.
Stop it.
Human can make water go up hill, 
So can a cow taking a piss at the top of a field.

but that is not natural.
Yes it is.

I am clearing stating natural observations. I am not adding the artificial additives that you expect me to add. When our early cooling universe formed protons and electrons; hydrogens atoms, negative and positive charges were assigned very specific roles. These roles were based on minimizing free energy, and thereby allowing longest term persistence. The electron and protons  will last as long as the universe. Antimatter did not persist, as the universe cooled, based on observational data. This is less stable in terms of minimal free energy and persistence.

As a chemical analogy, we burn oxygen and hydrogen, we will get all types of radicals and intermediaries during the high energy and hot combustion. However, in the end, as we cool the reaction, water; H2O, will be the last man standing, since it is the most stable of them all. This is not coincidence. The same thing happened to matter and anti-matter as the universe cooled. What makes water so stable, compared to all the radicals and intermediaries? This is the most stable orientation for charge and magnetism. The same was true of matter.

If you naturally confine positive charge, via the higher mass of the proton, positive charge will begin to specialize under those perpetual constraints. The role of positive charge, in the unified force, will be based on its natural low magnetic properties and its closeness to mass and gravity and even nuclear forces. Higher magnetic properties are connected to the election and its lower mass causes a different area of specialty such as atomic orbitals.

Both the positive charges in nucleus and the negative charges within electron orbitals are based on birds of the feather, in spite of charge repulsion. In other words, this is unstable with respect to charge but is very stable other wise. The reason is each charge has specialty "mass restricted" natural magnetic components, they obtained 380,000 years after the BB.   

The positive charges of the nucleus and its higher mass is more intimate with gravity and the nuclear forces. The higher magnetic component of the electron, is more concerned with other negative charges; orbital pairs. It can also place itself where it can impact the nucleus positive charge.

Theoretically, we can use exotic electrons orbitals to tweak the nuclear forces through the positive charge. We can take advantage of the natural roles of each charge. We can use this to tweak the  unified forces of the nucleus to disintegrate and/or fuse atoms. One has think in terms of naturally assigned roles and not applied science human choices to stack the deck for a pet theory.
 
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: jeffreyH on 25/04/2020 14:00:50
Hey poopypower, you seem to have started a trend of have-a-go heroes typing unending paragraphs of absolute garbage. That is some accomplishment. You should find something useful to do. Like help out your local community in time of need. You never know, you might feel better about yourself. Have a think about it.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/04/2020 14:02:22
I am not adding the artificial additives that you expect me to add
Where did you get that idea about what I want?
It's daft.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bobolink on 26/04/2020 16:35:31
1. An MRI image is made by the absorption of photons.
That is correct.  However, the photons come from the change in orientation of the protons in your body due to a strong magnetic field.  How does your idea handle that?
2. The photon is described as a particle.
Photons are not relevant to my comment.  I said that your proposed particle of kinetic energy is nonsense, there is no such thing.
3. Where did you see the outline of a photon and an electron?
You said, "The proton and the electron of the hydrogen atoms, are attracted together in the same plane".  The point I was trying to make was that is wrong.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: evan_au on 27/04/2020 00:02:04
Quote from:  RTCPhysics
Hence particles with spin-up and spin-down attract each other, whereas particles with the same spin state, repel or deflect one another.
The 21cm Hydrogen Line was important to radio astronomers mapping the structure of our galaxy, and identifying the spiral arms of our galaxy (even though they are obscured by dust).

When a neutral Hydrogen atom absorbs a 21cm photon, the spin of the electron changes from opposite the proton to parallel.
- According to your theory, the Hydrogen atom should immediately explode, as the electron and proton now repel each other
- This explosion would be very surprising, since a 21cm photon has extremely low energy (0.000006 eV)

In fact, we know that it takes a very energetic ultraviolet photon (≥13.6 eV) to separate an electron and proton
- This is because there is an extremely strong electrostatic attraction between the proton and electron
- Which is far more powerful than the low energy of the magnetic spin up vs spin down states
- So your theory about atoms being held together by magnetic rings doesn't hold water

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_line
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman_series
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 28/04/2020 14:48:23
Hey poopypower, you seem to have started a trend of have-a-go heroes typing unending paragraphs of absolute garbage. That is some accomplishment. You should find something useful to do. Like help out your local community in time of need. You never know, you might feel better about yourself. Have a think about it.

Again I am using the natural observation of positive charge attached to protons and negative charge attached to electrons. This is the majority of the universe in terms of charge. Do you agree?

Energy and entropy consideration would suggest that matter was more favorable. Random is a bandaid for a synthetic theory. The fact that there is little anti-matter left shows that charge has a stable configuration with mass. If matter and antimatter was random decision, why didn't we get pockets of each kind all over the universe with galaxies so space outed, to create isolation chambers? 

As an example of how lab data can conflict with natural theory; natural diamonds take a long time to make using high temperature and pressure in the earth. That being said, I can also make diamonds in the lab, in a fraction of the time. Does the speed of the synthetic method mean that the natural diamond also are made fast? The answer is maybe or maybe not.

Synthetic diamond often uses loopholes; catalysts, to make it more cost effective, thereby creating chemical mechanisms that are not part of nature. The inclusions; pockets of contaminants, within synthetic diamonds are often not found in nature, except in rare coincidences. 

I was staying natural, which is the proton and electron were formed, in such a way as to have the positive charge associate with higher mass. If we had no lab to make modifications, this is the data we  need to start with. The role of each charge was different from day one, which time averaging impacts the expression of each charge with respect to the other forces. Negative charge has very little practice with the nuclear forces, compared to positive charge; based on natural data and time averages. 

The analogy is having two twins where one is trained to be the pitcher and other is trained to be the catcher. The catcher is always closer to the umpire and batters. Working in a crowd is more more natural to the catcher than the pitcher.  A naturally unified theory of force, will have positive charge more associated with gravity and nuclear forces, since this role is the rule within natural observation. You appear to assume that 0.0000001% synthetic data should set the rules for nature like synthetic diamonds are also made the natural way.

Consider pressure and stellar fusion. Why do atoms fuse protons to make higher atoms, but not also fuse the electrons? If both charges were equal and opposite, why not fuse the protons (and neutrons) and then fuse or combine the electrons to get a double exothermic output? Elections and negative charge does not interact as well with gravity and nuclear forces.They are not used to being so close to these.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2020 16:23:27
The inclusions; pockets of contaminants, within synthetic diamonds are often not found in nature, except in rare coincidences. 
Wrong,
But it's not as if you let facts bother you.
Why do atoms fuse protons to make higher atoms, but not also fuse the electrons?
Because the strong nuclear force doesn't bind electrons.
Elections and negative charge does not interact as well with gravity and nuclear forces.
Wrong, because the strong nuclear force doesn't bind positrons either.

why didn't we get pockets of each kind all over the universe with galaxies so space outed, to create isolation chambers? 
Because, early on, they were not spaced out, they were pretty nearly all in the same place.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/04/2020 16:28:31
You seem to be using a circular argument.
The observation is that there's more matter than antimatter.

Again I am using the natural observation of positive charge attached to protons and negative charge attached to electrons.
Fair enough.
It's likely that there is some (as yet unknown) reason for that- it may just be chance.

But, you say, based on the observation,
The fact that there is little anti-matter left shows that charge has a stable configuration with mass

That's hypothetically possible. But you have no real evidence for it.
And mass doesn't seem too closely connected to charge in any experiments, so it's an unlikely hypothesis.

But you seem to be implying that the reason we have more matter than antimatter is because of that effect, and the reason you believe in the existence of that effect, is the imbalance of matter and antimatter.
That's a circular argument.
It doesn't help that you bury it in word salad.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 30/04/2020 11:55:27
You seem to be using a circular argument.
The observation is that there's more matter than antimatter.

Again I am using the natural observation of positive charge attached to protons and negative charge attached to electrons.
Fair enough.
It's likely that there is some (as yet unknown) reason for that- it may just be chance.

But, you say, based on the observation,
The fact that there is little anti-matter left shows that charge has a stable configuration with mass

That's hypothetically possible. But you have no real evidence for it.
And mass doesn't seem too closely connected to charge in any experiments, so it's an unlikely hypothesis.

But you seem to be implying that the reason we have more matter than antimatter is because of that effect, and the reason you believe in the existence of that effect, is the imbalance of matter and antimatter.
That's a circular argument.
It doesn't help that you bury it in word salad.


My inference is also base on another common observation within nature. If we reacted oxygen and hydrogen gases at 3000K, which about the flame temperature of hydrogen and oxygen, we would get an equilibrium of radicals and other reactive intermediates of water. If we cool the mixture, the equilibrium will shift toward only water or H2O.

I can see the same thing happening with matter and anti-matter in the early universe. At the extreme temperatures and pressures, when matter and anti-matter appear, both will in equilibrium with energy, all undergoing a reversible equilibrium reaction. This is similar to the hydrogen flame example where water is in equilibrium with radicals and energy at 3000K.

But as the universe cooled and expanded; pressure and temperature drop, the equilibrium shifted toward matter, like the hydrogen flame shifts toward pure water. Equilibrium is why matter is now the rule and anti-matter is the exception to the rule. The free radical precursors of water can still be made in the lab, with a hydrogen flame, but as we cool we get water.

Lab tests are run at high energy, which then defined states of matter at a higher temperature equilibrium. One needs to think in terms of a phase diagram and not an on-off switch. A phase diagram can have many distinct phases, each at various conditions. This is the rule in chemical nature, and should extrapolate to extreme conditions.

One of the problems is we cannot run lab experiment at the extreme pressure of the early universe. We run accelerator tests with an isobar. Such extreme early universe pressure will be have both GR and phase affects. GR affect will curve and contract space time, but as stars show, there is a also an actual pressure that impacts the phase diagram. This phase affect is why stellar fusion only appears in the core, and not all over the star. The center of the star has the pressures and temperatures needed to favor new atomic phases. This phase will not happen in the surface since, T and P are too low. This outer zone favors a plasma phase.

The singularity of the BB contracted space-time. As the first material phases become present, there were pressure based affects, with core phase conditions, not the same as the surface conditions. We talk about the event horizon of a black hole and not the core.

I could accept a matter-anti-matter-energy equilibrium phase at the core, but a matter equilibrium phase appearing and expanding with the surface, and then inward as the universe expands and cools. Like an expanding and dying star, its plasma phase moves outward and also works it way inward toward a smaller and smaller fusion core. 
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/04/2020 12:41:21
OK, thanks for the clarification
But it's still a circular argument.
There's more matter than antimatter because matter is more stable
How do we know it's more stable?
Because there's more matter than antimatter.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 01/05/2020 12:50:29
OK, thanks for the clarification
But it's still a circular argument.
There's more matter than antimatter because matter is more stable
How do we know it's more stable?
Because there's more matter than antimatter.


Stability is the rule in nature, while instability is the exception. An interesting example of stable versus unstable states of matter, is the decay of the free neutron. A neutron is very stable within nuclei, compared to when the neutron is free. A free neutron has an average lifetime of about 14 minute and 40 seconds. Whereas, neutrons within the original helium of the universe, for example,  can persist for a long as the universe. These states are not random, but the rule of nature due to certain phases being more stable at particular conditions.   

When free, neutrons decay into a proton and W- boson, with the W- boson further decaying into the electron and an antineutrino; electron neutrino.
n0 → p+ + W− → p + e + νe   

Many years back, I developed a theory for how the BB could occur seeing the primordial atom was an entity similar to the mother of all black holes. This should not want to expand. In this theory, the primordial atom of the BB, initially condenses from energy to mass, to form something analogous to neutron density. The eventual result was a balanced equilibrium, composed of the first half of the neutron decay reaction; 

n0 ↔ p+ + W−.

As time passed, and the equilibrium shifted more to the right to form a proton based universe, before electrons formed from the W- bosons. The W- boson has negative charge and can balance the positive charge of the proton, but the W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. This balance is useful as long ad things remain close. The proton's positive charge is connected to EM force which has a longer range affect. 

Further shift to the right eventually causes to the universe to inflate as the weak force and the EM force separate their affects; positive charge repulsion overcomes the weak nuclear force attraction off negative charge. We get a long range EM positive charge repulsion for the inflation period. The W- boson decays to the election and electron neutrino, introduced EM negative charge, that puts the brakes on the inflation period.

Quote
A small fraction (about one in 1000) of free neutrons decay with the same products, but add an extra particle in the form of an emitted gamma ray:

n0 → p+ + e- + νe + γ

This gamma ray may be thought of as a sort of "internal bremsstrahlung" that arises as the emitted beta particle (electron) interacts with the charge of the proton in an electromagnetic way.

The internal bremsstrahlung is an affect caused by the deceleration of charge, which is this case is the appearance of the electrons during the positively charged EM inflation period..The extreme energy gamma rays, that are given off, are a type of bremsstrahlung brake heat. This energy w would form matter and anti-matter particles pairs, which would appear among the stable high speed matter foundation; gaps and discontinuities. 
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bobolink on 01/05/2020 14:40:22
Stability is the rule in nature, while instability is the exception.
I don't see that as valid, it sounds like a opinion.  Do you have any evidence?
Many years back, I developed a theory for how the BB could occur seeing the primordial atom was an entity similar to the mother of all black holes. This should not want to expand. In this theory, the primordial atom of the BB, initially condenses from energy to mass, to form something analogous to neutron density. The eventual result was a balanced equilibrium, composed of the first half of the neutron decay reaction; 

n0 ↔ p+ + W−.

As time passed, and the equilibrium shifted more to the right to form a proton based universe, before electrons formed from the W- bosons. The W- boson has negative charge and can balance the positive charge of the proton, but the W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. This balance is useful as long ad things remain close. The proton's positive charge is connected to EM force which has a longer range affect. 

Further shift to the right eventually causes to the universe to inflate as the weak force and the EM force separate their affects; positive charge repulsion overcomes the weak nuclear force attraction off negative charge. We get a long range EM positive charge repulsion for the inflation period. The W- boson decays to the election and electron neutrino, introduced EM negative charge, that puts the brakes on the inflation period.
This is not a theory, this is more like a flight of fancy.  There is no evidence to support this.  It is not falsifiable.  It is a conjecture.
The internal bremsstrahlung is an affect caused by the deceleration of charge, which is this case is the appearance of the electrons during the positively charged EM inflation period..The extreme energy gamma rays, that are given off, are a type of bremsstrahlung brake heat. This energy w would form matter and anti-matter particles pairs, which would appear among the stable high speed matter foundation; gaps and discontinuities. 
I don't think the energy of the gamma ray is high enough to allow for pair production.  Do you have any data that says it is?
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 05/05/2020 14:40:58
Stability is the rule in nature, while instability is the exception.
I don't see that as valid, it sounds like a opinion.  Do you have any evidence?
Many years back, I developed a theory for how the BB could occur seeing the primordial atom was an entity similar to the mother of all black holes. This should not want to expand. In this theory, the primordial atom of the BB, initially condenses from energy to mass, to form something analogous to neutron density. The eventual result was a balanced equilibrium, composed of the first half of the neutron decay reaction;

n0 ↔ p+ + W−.

As time passed, and the equilibrium shifted more to the right to form a proton based universe, before electrons formed from the W- bosons. The W- boson has negative charge and can balance the positive charge of the proton, but the W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. This balance is useful as long ad things remain close. The proton's positive charge is connected to EM force which has a longer range affect.

Further shift to the right eventually causes to the universe to inflate as the weak force and the EM force separate their affects; positive charge repulsion overcomes the weak nuclear force attraction off negative charge. We get a long range EM positive charge repulsion for the inflation period. The W- boson decays to the election and electron neutrino, introduced EM negative charge, that puts the brakes on the inflation period.
This is not a theory, this is more like a flight of fancy.  There is no evidence to support this.  It is not falsifiable.  It is a conjecture.
The internal bremsstrahlung is an affect caused by the deceleration of charge, which is this case is the appearance of the electrons during the positively charged EM inflation period..The extreme energy gamma rays, that are given off, are a type of bremsstrahlung brake heat. This energy w would form matter and anti-matter particles pairs, which would appear among the stable high speed matter foundation; gaps and discontinuities.
I don't think the energy of the gamma ray is high enough to allow for pair production.  Do you have any data that says it is?

I was thinking in terms of the conditions within the early universe, when pressure was much higher and phases were different. A free neutron will decompose to a proton, electron and electron neutrino via an intermediate state, that involves a W- boson.

The W- boson contains negative charge, but this negative change is only affective at very close range. If the proton was to form an equilibrium with the W-boson, before it decomposed to the election, a very sight separation of distance, beyond nuclear distances, will decouple negative and positive charge

The negative charge is weak force nuclear based and stays short range as long as it is part of the W- boson. The positive change of the proton is  EM based and can work long range to infinity.  Each proton could be accompanied by its companion decomposition W- boson, but the long range EM force of the proton, can use its long range force to repel its close and distant proton neighbors, for that small window of time. 

The inflation period of the universe, becomes due to positive charge repulsion, with very little long range negative charge resistance, until the W- boson decomposes and the election can provide long distance EM affects. I have not done the calculation of the early universe's proton supply, repelling from a small zone, without any affective negative change resistance.  It will be fast, furious with a lot of giddy up.

The appearance of the electrons from W- decomposition, decelerates the inflation, from faster than the speed of light. Gamma may not be the correct quanta for that type of brake heat energy from matter and space-time.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Kryptid on 05/05/2020 16:32:20
The W- boson contains negative charge, but this negative change is only affective at very close range.

Citation needed.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 06/05/2020 12:16:02
The W- boson contains negative charge, but this negative change is only affective at very close range.

Citation needed.

The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force which only works at close range. If not that negative charge would reduce the number of orbital electrons for charge neutrality.

I copied and pasted the W- boson reaction formula, from WikiPedia, based on the search criteria, "free Neutron".  I went back a few minuted ago to post a link and all traces of W-, in neutron decay, has been purged from the write up. Check quick before it come back. The thieves of science are at work. This idea could make a cool weapon or energy source.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Kryptid on 06/05/2020 16:28:20
The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force which only works at close range.

I'm not asking about the range of the weak nuclear force. I'm asking for a citation that supports your assertion that the electric field of the W- is "short-ranged", unlike every other electric field we know of.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 07/05/2020 11:50:38
The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force which only works at close range.

I'm not asking about the range of the weak nuclear force. I'm asking for a citation that supports your assertion that the electric field of the W- is "short-ranged", unlike every other electric field we know of.

This was based on inference. The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. The weak nuclear force is short range. Innovation comes from looking at the old data in new ways.

https://home.fnal.gov/~cheung/rtes/RTESWeb/LQCD_site/pages/weakforce.htm (https://home.fnal.gov/~cheung/rtes/RTESWeb/LQCD_site/pages/weakforce.htm)

Quote
The weak force is so named because although it is stronger than gravity, it is only effective at very short distances (10-18 m).  Technically, it is one of the strongest forces, but because the particles involved are so big, their travel is limited to the short distance listed above.  The W and Z bosons that make the weak force weigh in at 80 GeV and 91 GeV respectively.  This is in comparison to the proton, which weighs .9 GeV.

The short range force, connected to the W- boson intermediary of neutron decay, only works short range. This negative charge helps to stabilize positive charge repulsion within the nucleus. However, being short range, the W-  has no impact on the electrons within atomic orbitals. However, electrons within orbitals should be able to impact the W- bosons, since the negative  charges of electron are long range. We should be able to tweak nuclei with exotic electrons orbitals such as oxidation states of -5 or thereabouts. 


Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Kryptid on 07/05/2020 16:42:56
This was based on inference. The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. The weak nuclear force is short range.

Non-sequitur. You can't say that its electric field is short-ranged because the weak force is short-ranged. That would make no sense.

This negative charge helps to stabilize positive charge repulsion within the nucleus.

No it doesn't, because there aren't normally W- bosons in the nucleus. Well, except for virtual W- bosons. But that's irrelevant because there would also be virtual W+ bosons there as well. Those virtual particles have no effect on the net charge of the nucleus, so they cannot contribute to its stability against electric repulsion.

However, being short range, the W-  has no impact on the electrons within atomic orbitals. However, electrons within orbitals should be able to impact the W- bosons, since the negative  charges of electron are long range.

That claim violates Newton's third law. If the W- bosons can feel the electric repulsion of the electrons' negative charge, then the electrons must also feel that same repulsion from the W- bosons.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 08/05/2020 14:07:58
This was based on inference. The W- boson is connected to the weak nuclear force. The weak nuclear force is short range.

Non-sequitur. You can't say that its electric field is short-ranged because the weak force is short-ranged. That would make no sense.

This negative charge helps to stabilize positive charge repulsion within the nucleus.

No it doesn't, because there aren't normally W- bosons in the nucleus. Well, except for virtual W- bosons. But that's irrelevant because there would also be virtual W+ bosons there as well. Those virtual particles have no effect on the net charge of the nucleus, so they cannot contribute to its stability against electric repulsion.

However, being short range, the W-  has no impact on the electrons within atomic orbitals. However, electrons within orbitals should be able to impact the W- bosons, since the negative  charges of electron are long range.

That claim violates Newton's third law. If the W- bosons can feel the electric repulsion of the electrons' negative charge, then the electrons must also feel that same repulsion from the W- bosons.

In terms of your last point, of Newtons third law of action and reaction, let me give you an example of how decoupling is possible.

Consider the twin paradox. I am going to modify this thought experiment, slightly. Say we have two twins, one remains on earth, and the other takes off in a rocket ship traveling close to the speed of light. Because of SR, the moving twin will age slower.

The experiment I will do with this foundation, is have the two twins meet at a restaurant at 7PM. The twin in motion, since his time frame is moving slower, he will see 7PM appear on his watch, later than his stationary brother.  The stationary brother gets to the restaurant at exactly 7PM earth time. His moving brother, who is late by earth time, nevertheless, also gets there at exactly 7PM, but on his watch.

The stationary brother never crosses paths with his moving brother, since the moving brother is late and therefore indeterminate as he waits. The stationary brother, as he waits, is not sure if his brother ever will get there or not.

The moving brother, when he finally does arrive, knows his brother was there, by a artifacts such as a message he gets from the waiter, that came from his brother. The moving brother has proof of the past, and the present, that show both brothers showed up; a rational inference can be made.

On the other hand, when the first brother shows up, all the way to when it  he leaves, he is stuck at a level of  uncertainty; SchrŲdinger's cat. As he leaves his message ,with the waiter, he is still not sure if his brother is going to be  late, or be a no show. There is no rational way to extrapolate from the lack of data he has. Only the moving brother can do this.

The massive W- boson's negative charge is closer to the analogy of the stationary twin. The election's negative charge as it moves about the atom, is like the moving twin. To interact they need to meet at 7PM. The electron can sense the past of the W- boson's negative charge, but not the W- boson is uncertain of the both past and the future of the electron. It  has no gauging logic since it is always to early to meet or get artifacts.

If you know the past and present for a cyclic affect, you also know the present and future. But if you do not know the past or future, the present connections are inconclusive. Newton's third laws assumes one reference, and not two time references. The cause and affect can decouple but will still be under energy conservation.

If you consider, the singularity of the BB, with space-time all contacted to this point, this is absolute (0,0,0,0) in terms of space-time reference. This is as stationary as you can get. Deviation from there; expansion, adds changes in reference from (0,0,0,0). The huge mass/energy of bosons, relative to protons and then electrons, will create velocity and then time reference difference and decoupling.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Kryptid on 08/05/2020 17:36:20
That is complete nonsense. One particle feeling the field of the other but not vice versa would result in violation of conservation of momentum. So we know that your conclusion on it is wrong. Not to mention that your idea that the electric field of the W- boson is short-ranged because the weak force is short-ranged is as ridiculous as saying that a car's headlight beams must only be able to go as far as the car itself can. The electromagnetic force is not limited in the way that the weak force is.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 11/05/2020 13:55:39
That is complete nonsense. One particle feeling the field of the other but not vice versa would result in violation of conservation of momentum. So we know that your conclusion on it is wrong. Not to mention that your idea that the electric field of the W- boson is short-ranged because the weak force is short-ranged is as ridiculous as saying that a car's headlight beams must only be able to go as far as the car itself can. The electromagnetic force is not limited in the way that the weak force is.

Say we assume, for the sake of argument, the negative charge of the W- is long range. The weak nuclear force would not only bind the positive charge of the nucleus protons, but it will impact the electrons via long range interactions. Wouldn't atomic charge balance require fewer orbital electrons?

On the other hand, if the W- was only short range, it only purpose would be to help overcome the positive charge repulsion within the nucleus, while not impacting the electrons due to their distance. The electrons would only feel  the positive charge of the protons and balance is achieved one for one.

My explanation for how this is possible is based on space-time reference and time dilation. Two references, with two different time propagation, cannot synchronize properly. This is similar to the twin paradox and one twin aging faster. His watch is never the same as his brother's watch. They cannot meet using time in their own references.The W- and electron are in different time zones and cannot coordinate affects in real time. Time is how you explain the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle; Occam's razor. 

In terms of the expansion of the universe, the primordial atom is analogous to the mother of all black holes in terms of space-time reference (0,0,0,0,). It is close to a speed of light reference. Expansion from this singularity, changes the reference,  time begins to speed up. This impacts the W- and Z bosons less due to their massive size. Now we have the time paradox forming that is needed to decouple charge.This interferes with W- charge synchronicity in time and space. The election phase is needed to reduce the inflation period due to positive charge having decoupled from negative charge, via two time references in space-time. The electron is closer in time to the proton but not exact. It does apply the brakes, but with a probably function instead of pure action and reaction; Heisenberg Uncertainty.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Kryptid on 11/05/2020 21:22:20
Wouldn't atomic charge balance require fewer orbital electrons?

No, because (1) they are virtual W- bosons, and (2) an equal amount of virtual W+ bosons would be present. That makes the net charge zero.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: puppypower on 14/05/2020 13:28:20
Wouldn't atomic charge balance require fewer orbital electrons?

No, because (1) they are virtual W- bosons, and (2) an equal amount of virtual W+ bosons would be present. That makes the net charge zero.

Bosons have the property of being able to occupy the same quantum state, with no limit as to how many bosons can occur that same quantum state. Bosons are not governed by the Pauli Exclusion principle, which is most commonly applied to election orbitals.

Electrons cannot occupy the same quantum state. Rather each orbital pair of electrons has to have opposite spin, to occupy the same orbital state. Something has to be different for the boson and its charge/integral spin, since it acts neutral, instead of charged, when many similar bosons occupy the same quantum state.

Mass is important in terms of space-time. Mass cannot move at the speed of light, but rather mass can only exist at below the speed light. Mass appears to be a key requirement for space-time. SR or GR both make lots of hoopla over mass and space-time reference, but they do not talk much in terms of charge being needed for space-time references. There is no relativistic charge differences between references.

To go from the pure c-reference, to allow inertial references and space-time, mass needs to appear. Only then do GR and SR apply. SR does not apply to photons as evidence in finite wavelengths and the speed of light.  Mass creates a stable discontinuity between the c-reference and all possible inertial states.

Energy/photons move at the speed of light, but they also show finite characteristics associated with inertial states; wavelength and frequency. These will red and blue shift based on movement between inertial references. Photons define a bridge state between the c-reference and inertial states. The show characteristics of both disconnected references.

The logical sequence of events for universe formation is initially only the c-reference, where space and time can act independent of each other.  Next, there is an bridge state, partly anchored in the c-reference and partly in inertial reference. Then mass appears so it can separate inertial from the c-reference. It is when mass appears that space-time becomes persistent. Energy, without mass for gravity, does not what to self cluster and persist in a definitive way of space, needed for persistent space-time. Energy prefers to occupy new space,keeping space-time in flux.

This is why I start my BB primordial atom analysis with mass; neutron, and then something similar to neutron decay. We need mass to appear, so space-time is able to separate and persistent. The decay produces of the neutron are protons and W- bosons. This will cause inflation, due to positive charge repulsion and since protons cannot occupy the same quantum state. They need elbow room in a hurry.

The other decay product or the heavier W- bosons can occupy the same quantum state, and will get left behind.  The W- then decays into the election and electron neutrino, with the electrons also unable to remain in the same quantum state, as their parent W- . They then expand, even faster, to catch up to the protons. 

The interaction of protons and electrons applies the brakes, giving off lots of energy from which matter and anti-matter appear. Now we can get even more particle variety,  based on this matter foundation.

If you put the brakes on space-time, that was initially inflating faster than the speed of light, one is not dealing with inertial reference during braking, but rather one is really dealing with the c-reference. Only there are space and time independent of each other. If one can move in space without the constraint of time, one can quantum skip forward in space, independent of time. appear to move faster than c, without violating c in space-time.

The brake affect, in terms of the inertial reference, is associated with an entropic potential appearing within the c-reference as reference changes back to inertial. In other words, going from c-reference; inflation, to inertial expansion, will result in a huge loss c-reference entropy, and an increase in inertial reference entropy. This creates diversity and absorbs brake energy. The matter and anti-matter appearance reflects the inertial entropy increase, while the endothermic affect, results in the elections, protons and some neutrons left standing.

In other words, if you increase entropy, this will increase diversity and complexity. It will also absorb an equivalent amount of free energy and make that energy unusable. The second law requires entropy has to increase, which means some energy is no longer net useable. This sets limits on the steady state that can appear.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/05/2020 13:33:45
Mass creates a stable discontinuity between the c-reference and all possible inertial states.
The thread was bad enough without adding  that sort of tosh.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: talanum1 on 07/07/2020 18:51:03
As a consequence, the hydrogen atom with its spin up proton and spin down electron, can be viewed from its opposite side as an anti-hydrogen atom with a spin-down proton and a spin-up electron.

This is incorrect: an anti-hydrogen atom doesn't just have opposite spins in their constituent parts.
Title: Re: On Matter and Anti-Matter
Post by: RTCPhysics on 29/08/2020 14:57:18
Can the OP draw a sketch of how the forces spin between the central proton and electron enclosure please.

I don't think that anyone can yet!
The model used here is based upon the knowledge that magnetic rings cannot cross each other. Hence the individual magnetic rings of a proton and an electron join together along their rims within the same plane.
A similar model to yours is the scattering of iron filings on to a magnetic field, which bring the filing's into line with the field rings, just as your bubbles sequentially are made to rotate along the line of the applied magnetic field rings.
Look through the base of your jar and the bubbles are circling anticlockwise without switching the magnet over.