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General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Bill S on 19/06/2020 19:05:09

Title: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bill S on 19/06/2020 19:05:09
Has there been any time between the Reformation and the enactment of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020, when religious gatherings were prohibited by Law in England?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2020 19:22:43
It's possible that they were previously restricted by common sense.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 19/06/2020 20:45:59
Or by mutual prejudice. Not sure whether any previous administration banned all superstition, but catholics and protestants have outlawed one another from time to time in Jesus' name, and Jews (other than Jesus) have been expelled. I think the Romans took a dim view of Christianity until they adopted it and banned everything else.

The Pilgrim Fathers successfully exported their own brand of intolerance when it wasn't tolerated here, and Quakers have been given the occasional bashing for being kind and good.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/06/2020 20:51:29
Romans took a dim view of Christianity
Had to have lion food.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bill S on 20/06/2020 11:17:15
Quote from: Alan
Quakers have been given the occasional bashing for being kind and good.

Must be your “kindest” comment about any religious group.  Is that because they make good breakfast cereal?

Quote from: BC
Had to have lion food.

What did they feed their lions on after Caesar decided to try to save his Empire by changing sides? 
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/06/2020 12:50:48
What did they feed their lions on after Caesar decided to try to save his Empire by changing sides?
The people who didn't change sides fast enough.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 21/06/2020 11:03:02
Quote from: Alan
Quakers have been given the occasional bashing for being kind and good.

Must be your “kindest” comment about any religious group.  Is that because they make good breakfast cereal?

I prefer Scotts porage, but having lived with both a Scot and a Quaker I wouldn't dare to criticise either. And I usually make the breakfast.

However when I am king,  I will ban any teaching that puts religion in a good light. It has probably killed more people than syphilis, the fons et origo of Anglicanism. But without the rise of Protestantism, it is quite likely that Catholics would still be torturing and forcibly converting others. That job has now been subcontracted to a few branches of Islam, along with a fair bit of butchery from occasional Hindu sects, Buddhists killing Muslims in Myanmar, and so on. Faith is the enemy of intellect, and intellect is what keeps animals with large brains and small muscles (us) alive.   


And was the Roman empire really attacked by Christian hordes? Saved by prayers to the Trinity? Or just fell apart after they adopted Christianity?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 22/06/2020 16:30:18
Rome under Nero and others changed the human face of Italy by making many martyrs. They mismanaged their economy and the great library in Egypt burned down. When they became a Christian state, there were not so many bishops and pastors left to make the full genuine conversion of Rome.

Why blame enlightened Christians of today for old world bad behaviour? Christians helped the enlightenment.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2020 16:34:47
Christians helped the enlightenment.
In what way?
The point of the enlightenment was, in part, that they stopped looking at the Bible and started looking at reality.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 22/06/2020 16:43:45
I think of Descartes and Swedenborg and how in those days most westerners were Christian. The enlightenment didn't only focus on the scientific method which is too simple.

There are enlightenment changes in how to see the Bible and Papal authority, and church relations.

People in the enlightenment or after could also have extreme views about for example taking Germany further as a united secular nation. Or as a Muslim nation.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/06/2020 17:14:38
I think of Descartes and Swedenborg and how in those days most westerners were Christian.
The mass murderers of the day were also Christian, but it wasn't caused by the church.

The Church still opposed reason; it was still of the view that Galileo was wrong.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 26/06/2020 15:11:14
There were disagreements, Galileo and Descartes were Catholics. Descartes may have been worried to publish his treatise on Metaphysics and treatise on light shortly after Galileo was penalized.

The fights between Christians would have been due to the wrong education, insincere conversion and lack of education. Concepts like love, rights, justice, respect, well I doubt they'd survive with human nature driven religion in Europe, warring parties having the rule. It comes from the Bible and the graces by faith. I think part of the enlightenment was waking up to true conversion, to appreciate benevolence... To study the Bible in one's native tongue with academic rigour.

For the churches, reason is firstly about reasoning with God to obtain a clean heart as from Isaiah 1. The creeds have only a little value.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/06/2020 16:20:06
There were disagreements,
Yes, with the Church on one side and the truth on the other.
For the churches, reason is firstly about reasoning with God
What about reasoning with the tooth fairy?
God isn't "reasonable". It is, for example, impossible to have some of the properties He is said to have.
In most monotheist religions He is said to be all powerful.
Can He set himself a task he can't accomplish?


Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/06/2020 16:21:13
It comes from the Bible
That's just silly isn't it?
The idea that there was no love before the Bible is a childish suggestion.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/06/2020 16:25:03
To study the Bible in one's native tongue with academic rigour.
I don't think it matters much which language you use.
Read the first page (say, Genesis Ch1) or so carefully (with academic rigour) and see how long it takes you to spot the contradiction.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 26/06/2020 22:09:00
Religius gatherings are illigal if the religion is against the one which is in power, papal excommunications, crusades against islam, burning catholics, against communism, against personality cults of supreme leaders. If you call north korea religion you will find it allmakes sense, fascism is power through belief, so is religion, christians buddhists and any religion that professes peace whilst demanding belief is a contradiction to itself, at least good old sun worship and human sacrifice had an honest face. Pray to the bomb .

Quote from:
YOU MANIACS. YOU BLEW IT UP. DAMN YOU. GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 27/06/2020 16:40:29
There were disagreements,
Yes, with the Church on one side and the truth on the other.
For the churches, reason is firstly about reasoning with God
What about reasoning with the tooth fairy?
God isn't "reasonable". It is, for example, impossible to have some of the properties He is said to have.
In most monotheist religions He is said to be all powerful.
Can He set himself a task he can't accomplish?



People in history reasoned with God, even young ones like Wilberforce, making him a clean man with care, eventually ending the slave trade and reducing cruelty to animals and granting free education. Who cares? The Trinity is the only wise god. Which concept compares to Christ for benevolence?

The old church was changing. There were the high church ranks and the common people, but who were educated. The free press was essential for fast change. The RCC could have done better and the Protestant churches.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 27/06/2020 17:06:21
It comes from the Bible
That's just silly isn't it?
The idea that there was no love before the Bible is a childish suggestion.
The Bible is extremely old. It is not that only people who heard loved anyone, with regards to natural love, husbands and wives, children, brothers... But under pagan and atheists, love was not worshiped. Love as a low priority and sometimes you would have to set it aside for cultural affairs. Roman legions, Mars, Bacchus, pederasty.

And now the secularist the new atheism does not always cherish the unborn, the aged, the disabled, and poor unemployed woman may be told they ought to prostitute themselves by governors. And the new slavery, sex slavery was established in Eastern Europe and the model of such pimping is taking off well in the US, Mexico and the Philippines.There is no love in that. If you love people, you may face terrible odds in the future. You don't have to care, unless it means something may happen to you or a friend, in which case taking life cold may feel better.

Natural love is supported in Scriptures but another greater love comes out of it. Agape. This is only attained by faith.

Remarkably, such people lived under Nero and cold popes. Sometimes it was agonizing. Unless the Bible is free and expressed and love is worshiped loving people is difficult. It could be impossible. By law you have to abort your conceptions if you have more than one sometimes. The killing is not prosecuted. Someone may be able to pederise you son, daughters can be forced to prostitue, you could be called up to fight and defend the system, you could be required to worship a politician or a pagan deity, or another misconcept of God... Preach love to some and you are called a bigot, because the supernatural love we see in Newton and Wilberforce to name two, is not natural.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 27/06/2020 17:12:25
There are things God can't do, like, lie, cast a shadow,  be tempted, except for the Christ, and He would know how He could over apply Himself, but not be the fool to step of the ledge. God can't change from the love nature.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 27/06/2020 17:32:22
It is when money and pleasures are first priority that there is a danger of loss of freedom towards painful restrictions.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/06/2020 17:49:48
And now the secularist the new atheism does not always cherish the unborn, the aged, the disabled, and poor unemployed woman may be told they ought to prostitute themselves by governors. And the new slavery, sex slavery was established in Eastern Europe and the model of such pimping is taking off well in the US, Mexico and the Philippines.
None of that has anything to do with atheism, does it?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/06/2020 17:51:19
The old church was changing.
Because the sensible people were pointing out that the Church was wrong.
Yet it's the word of God.

Do you really not see the problems here?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 27/06/2020 19:35:53
And now the secularist the new atheism does not always cherish the unborn, the aged, the disabled, and poor unemployed woman may be told they ought to prostitute themselves by governors. And the new slavery, sex slavery was established in Eastern Europe and the model of such pimping is taking off well in the US, Mexico and the Philippines.
None of that has anything to do with atheism, does it?

What people value and hold most worthwhile, in particular the majority and the elected governors, determines the practices. Liberal Christians still have the Bible and may value wisdom and love and honour and compassion, but not all do. They don't believe God exists. Atheists are free from faith, bound to natural desires. They love themselves, their wives, children, cars, houses, jobs, money, pleasures, entertainments and maybe their countrymen. To differ from Nazi Germany, they may like peace itself and foreign people. In it there is a kind of wisdom.

John Lennon and the hippie movement makes a mark. Interesting to see what became of it.

I am looking at Communist China and policies from the USA, Belgium. And the letting go of the rejection of Nazism.

What are your values as an atheist?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Kryptid on 27/06/2020 20:56:04
Liberal Christians still have the Bible and may value wisdom and love and honour and compassion, but not all do. They don't believe God exists.

Did you just say that liberal Christians don't believe God exists?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/06/2020 21:41:21
Atheists are free from faith, bound to natural desires. They love themselves, their wives, children, cars, houses, jobs, money, pleasures, entertainments and maybe their countrymen. To differ from Nazi Germany, they may like peace itself and foreign people. In it there is a kind of wisdom.
Not really.
The only thing you can reliably say about atheists as a group is that they don't believe in God.
In it there is a kind of wisdom.
Well, the only thing in atheism is not believing in God.
It's interesting that you cal that "wisdom".
What are your values as an atheist?
The only value that I have "as an atheist" is that I don't believe there's a God.

You really don't seem to understand what the word means.
You keep reading all sorts of other stuff into it.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/06/2020 21:42:09
And the letting go of the rejection of Nazism.
Read that through a few more times.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 10:31:59
Liberal Christians still have the Bible and may value wisdom and love and honour and compassion, but not all do. They don't believe God exists.

Did you just say that liberal Christians don't believe God exists?
What I have heard is that they don't believe Jesus literally died and rose again, maybe some doubt the account of his life as well. Yes I think they don't believe God exists, maybe some are agnostic and some atheist.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 10:33:18
Christians who believe in Christ risen, have eternal values, regarding the human spirits, souls and bodies. When some doubt and become agnostic or atheists, their values change. What is worth the most to them changes.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 11:01:12
Christians who believe in Christ risen, have eternal values, regarding the human spirits, souls and bodies.
And armies have chaplains who explain that the eternal value of the enemy is less than the eternal value of the people on their side.

hen some doubt and become agnostic or atheists,

Let's get this straight.
People start off atheists until they are told that there's a God- generally by the same people who tell them there's a tooth fairy.

It's not a matter of "turning to atheism", it's a matter of growing out of fairy stories.
What is worth the most to them changes.
Really?
So you don't think that atheists value their friends and families?
I can only presume you are an idiot.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 12:01:06
Christians who believe in Christ risen, have eternal values, regarding the human spirits, souls and bodies.
And armies have chaplains who explain that the eternal value of the enemy is less than the eternal value of the people on their side.

hen some doubt and become agnostic or atheists,

Let's get this straight.
People start off atheists until they are told that there's a God- generally by the same people who tell them there's a tooth fairy.

It's not a matter of "turning to atheism", it's a matter of growing out of fairy stories.
What is worth the most to them changes.
Really?
So you don't think that atheists value their friends and families?
I can only presume you are an idiot.
Just up this page I mentioned atheists value their friends and family. But the values are different if you think once you die, you cease to exist.

Some people in these forums wrote that they are patriotic, others thought it better not to be. To play safe, because it can be taken too far. Yes, ambition for each other is not good like a love for each other however is. But some people see love as religion and dangerous. There is the mocking of the giving ones life for a brother, and the same for two cousins... The suspicion of altruism and eugenics.

You can value your friends and family, but if they exist for 80 years and then are gone, no eternal destiny and consequences, then abortion seems to matter less, and ending old age suffering makes more sense to some, disabled children may not be worth while. In Iceland they abort all Downs Syndrome children. In Belgium a Schizophrenic man in his twenties opted to be euthanized.

It is good that atheists hate wars.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 12:09:39
Atheists have the wisdom of hindsight. But associate war with religion. If people were not religious in history, would there have been peace? And now after the enlightenment and better education, not only in science but with history and Vatican 2 and Pentecostalism... don't we all have the same sight to reject wars? Or to know some need be?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 12:21:40
Atheists have the wisdom of hindsight.
So have theists.
But the values are different if you think once you die, you cease to exist.
Well, most people don't want their loved ones to die.
Most religion makes it seem less of a problem- "they aren't dead and you will see them later in the afterlife".

In doing so, religion  promotes death as more acceptable.
And, in doing that it devalues life.

So, yes, there may be differences in values, Atheists are more likely to think people's lives are important.

That, to get back to the original question, is why some religious organisations are opposing  the closure of churches.
They don't see death as a problem.

Which is an unorthodox viewpoint.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 12:25:05
If people were not religious in history, would there have been peace?
Hard to say.
But it's actually quite difficult to get most people to kill people.
You need to convince them that the enemy is somehow sub-human.
Look at just about any wartime(and war) propaganda and you will see that.

You need to make a clear distinction between them and us.
Religion is just another way to make that easy.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/06/2020 15:08:15
What I have heard is that they don't believe Jesus literally died and rose again, maybe some doubt the account of his life as well. Yes I think they don't believe God exists, maybe some are agnostic and some atheist.

And how are you defining "liberal" Christian? I sure hope you aren't saying that Christians who have liberal political values don't believe in God. What is the point of even being a Christian if you don't believe in God? Then you don't have any sins against Him that need to be absolved via Jesus' death.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 15:54:53
Atheists have the wisdom of hindsight.
So have theists.
But the values are different if you think once you die, you cease to exist.
Well, most people don't want their loved ones to die.
Most religion makes it seem less of a problem- "they aren't dead and you will see them later in the afterlife".

In doing so, religion  promotes death as more acceptable.
And, in doing that it devalues life.

So, yes, there may be differences in values, Atheists are more likely to think people's lives are important.

That, to get back to the original question, is why some religious organisations are opposing  the closure of churches.
They don't see death as a problem.

Which is an unorthodox viewpoint.

If life is eternal and the next life has rewards, life now is worth living and has a sense of mission.

An atheist I think GS Mollen asked that if babies go to Heaven when they die, why is it wrong to abort them? I'd say they gain something from life. Pro lifers say, cherish life, keep it.

It is not a current day Christian train of thoughts: abortion, euthanasia, Nazism, idolatry, money is god, prostitution and make love not war. Old Christianity was in the wrong.

Death hopefully is something not to fear. But which Christian will commit suicide because of hope? Only mad ones. Long ago some clergy in Constantinople preferred suicide to capture by soldiers.

Some churches don't want churches closed, maybe they think they will be healed. Others think that since you always meet the same people at church that it means it is easily possible to track the spread of infection. They don't think life doesn't matter. We don't believe suicide, the easy way out must lead to Heaven. If so, only by God's mercy. You can't love someone else if you don't love yourself. You must value your life and try win through hardship. Some love money more than life and suicide if they go broke.

We should honour our grand parents and prolong their life and health. It a loss of faith that could lead to a desire to be euthenised or an acceptance of it. We have rights to kill animals and eat them, but not other people.

Creation scientists, don't like the theory of evolution because it leads to what they think is a lesser sense of human dignity. And as one song goes, "you and me baby aint nothun but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the discovery channel."

John Lennon gave up on his sense of honour when he gave up on warring. So it seems to me.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 16:01:55
What I have heard is that they don't believe Jesus literally died and rose again, maybe some doubt the account of his life as well. Yes I think they don't believe God exists, maybe some are agnostic and some atheist.

And how are you defining "liberal" Christian? I sure hope you aren't saying that Christians who have liberal political values don't believe in God. What is the point of even being a Christian if you don't believe in God? Then you don't have any sins against Him that need to be absolved via Jesus' death.
They do not speak of politics when saying they are liberal.

They value some aspects of the Bible and Christian philosophy but they are not sure about Christ's existence.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 16:08:29
If people were not religious in history, would there have been peace?
Hard to say.
But it's actually quite difficult to get most people to kill people.
You need to convince them that the enemy is somehow sub-human.
Look at just about any wartime(and war) propaganda and you will see that.

You need to make a clear distinction between them and us.
Religion is just another way to make that easy.
Religion and spirituality can make it harder to call others sub human. All of us are equal before the cross. It is for all races and classes...

I think it was Christian for the US constitution to come by: "All men are equal." Inspiration pushing through human nature in a violent place.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/06/2020 17:36:05
They do not speak of politics when saying they are liberal.

Okay, thank you for clearing that up.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 18:04:03
Religion and spirituality can make it harder to call others sub human. All of us are equal before the cross. It is for all races and classes...
Can you cite an example of that working- where  a war was stopped because someone pointed at the Bible and said "We are all brothers" or something?.
Or is it just wishful thinking?

I think it was Christian for the US constitution to come by: "All men are equal."
It was largely written by slave owners.
But, of course, that's OK. Christianity didn't have  a problem with that.
Well, not until civilisation pointed out that the Book was morally wrong.

(You do know that the Bible tells you where to get your slave and how to keep them, don't you?)
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/06/2020 18:23:23
the model of such pimping is taking off well in the US, Mexico and the Philippines.
...all deeply Christian countries, as were the homelands of the black slave traders. And AFAIK the tribal elders who sold their kinsmen into slavery were deeply religious too. 
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/06/2020 18:26:26
But the values are different if you think once you die, you cease to exist.
Plenty of atheists believe in an afterlife. And I guess a lot of priests hope there isn't one.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/06/2020 18:30:56
Creation scientists, don't like the theory of evolution because it leads to what they think is a lesser sense of human dignity.
It's a curious form of dignity that preaches hatred of the intellect and denial of the obvious.

Evolution is not a theory, it's an everyday observation. Darwin merely hypothesised the underlying mechanism.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 19:17:29
Religion and spirituality can make it harder to call others sub human. All of us are equal before the cross. It is for all races and classes...
Can you cite an example of that working- where  a war was stopped because someone pointed at the Bible and said "We are all brothers" or something?.
Or is it just wishful thinking?

I think it was Christian for the US constitution to come by: "All men are equal."
It was largely written by slave owners.
But, of course, that's OK. Christianity didn't have  a problem with that.
Well, not until civilisation pointed out that the Book was morally wrong.

(You do know that the Bible tells you where to get your slave and how to keep them, don't you?)
The present day Pope aims to keep peaceful relations with the Muslims and inside the community of Catholics and other Christians. The Catholics and Pentecostals are struggling in China, and there is much persecution in Nigeria and other countries. The churches care but we don't like the idea of fighting much. I think some of the Christians are sick of all this but would want the regular army to protect them and otherwise what can they do? Can they buy armoured vehicles?

In old Europe efforts were made to keep nations from fighting each other. By mistake one army attacked the Hungarians mistaking them for Turks.

One has to look back a long way, I think to the time when the tribe of Benjamin became corrupt. They were wiped out in anger, but then they realised they'd gone too far and tore their robes, and looked into it and found some had been away from the city at the time and they were able to restart their numbers.

Old Christian Europe had some unity, sometimes for the benefit of Spain and sometimes for Hungary when Christians were attacked. In Northern Ireland the only helps I have heard them receive are Christian peace makers. I can remember the name Alister E McGrath. I heard others preach but did not take down their names.

WW2 army chaplains convinced some German soldiers to give up. Bonhoeffer sided against his own country's government while loving Germany. Not all Germans were Nazis. Some Christians were traitors and the Pope in the war was weak.

St Francis was amazing in his day. 12th century.

I think but I am not sure if the RCC and the Greek Orthodox despite the old world lack of grace and love managed to avoid fighting with swords in hand.

Of course William Wilberforce and his young team and their fellow petitioners saw more in Africans than slaves.

True the Old Testament, was directed to the hard hearted Hebrews, but the New Testament, book of Philemon calls slaves in some cases, "brothers". Paul did not want to start a fight, but wanted the whole of Rome to turn slowly.

Jesus was said to be, one man, dying for the nation instead of many dying. He is the grand example.

David Brainerd stands out in US history as a back bone of education example, as missionary to the native Americans where he lived.

The US constitution was an example, when being written of ideals put forward to be the way of the near and distant future. Eventually in the North and then the south slavery ended.

The US and Australia are similar, the ethnicity, the language and parts of culture, and yet there is more crime and violence there in the US and more prisons, tougher sentences. There are big pockets of very lovely civil life. But there is Chicago and once upon a time the Bronx. The police are rough in the US. In Australia without riots people protesting for change here for the Aboriginals, such as the prisoners. Over here life is less violent, including our history, especially locally. Australia was formed after the English Enlightenment. We had historical revival of faith. A time with no crime rate as Barry Chant writes. To the point that somehow we don't have much problem with slavery as they do in the States.

A woman in Brisbane fell victim to a pimp. He learned from a pimp text book based on the East European and US models, of violently intimidating a woman. But she made it through.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/pimp-who-preyed-on-australian-women-faces-life-20140929-10nfu1.html

But slavery is not Australian. Without a heavy police presence, we don't have the underworld trade here like they do in the US even per capita. US Christians are not to blame but rather are victims, unless they were to take to arms  to go out with the law in their own hands and fight the men who kidnap their daughters.

Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 19:27:01
But the values are different if you think once you die, you cease to exist.
Plenty of atheists believe in an afterlife. And I guess a lot of priests hope there isn't one.
Do You mean Buddhists?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 19:32:24
Jesus was said to be, one man, dying for the nation instead of many dying. He is the grand example.
I have bad news for you. It didn't work.
. In Northern Ireland the only helps I have heard them receive are Christian peace makers.
One of the main figures in that was Maggie- a dedicated follower of Mammon, not God.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 19:37:01
But slavery is not Australian.
You don't need slaves if you have convict labour.
I'm not sure how much more morally right it is.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 19:58:06
Jesus was said to be, one man, dying for the nation instead of many dying. He is the grand example.
I have bad news for you. It didn't work.
. In Northern Ireland the only helps I have heard them receive are Christian peace makers.
One of the main figures in that was Maggie- a dedicated follower of Mammon, not God.

Maggie's dad and early life practice was Wesleyan. Mr Roberts was a preacher.

Jesus' generation of Israelites survived. Now they do not have to die for their sins or bring animal sacrifices.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 20:19:03
Maggie's dad and early life practice was Wesleyan.
So?
I also don't care what her second cousin twice removed did.
Now they do not have to die for their sins
They never really did.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2020 21:59:12
But slavery is not Australian.
You don't need slaves if you have convict labour.
I'm not sure how much more morally right it is.
After Federation, I do not think we had convict labourers. Point is, Australia and the US are similar and yet pimping is a bigger industry in the US. It is not something about the presence of the faithful that energises it. Unless maybe over tolerance?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/06/2020 22:51:40
Australia and the US are similar and yet pimping is a bigger industry in the US.
Well, Perhaps that's because the US population is about 74% Christian (with about 18 % atheists) while the Australian population is about 52% Christian (with about 30% atheists).
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/06/2020 23:40:18
Religion and spirituality can make it harder to call others sub human.
The one thing all religions have in common is that each one teaches you to despise all the others.

The sooner the national curriculum drops "religious tolerance" in favor of intellect and logic, the better. Meanwhile, as a brief interlude in the Catholic-Protestant war, we have Sunnis and Shias killing one another and Boko Haram taking schoolgirls into slavery for the greater glory of the Abrahamic God and his Prophet. India and Pakistan having been partitioned on religious grounds, the slaughter continues from time to time.

Religion, of course, deals with eternal truths and unchanging morality. Such as whether women are fit to be priests and whether priests should molest children.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 29/06/2020 15:11:24
Australia and the US are similar and yet pimping is a bigger industry in the US.
Well, Perhaps that's because the US population is about 74% Christian (with about 18 % atheists) while the Australian population is about 52% Christian (with about 30% atheists).
How does this make a difference to crime rates?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/06/2020 18:20:50
How does this make a difference to crime rates?
It does it ironically.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 29/06/2020 23:30:20
the model of such pimping is taking off well in the US, Mexico and the Philippines.
...all deeply Christian countries, as were the homelands of the black slave traders. And AFAIK the tribal elders who sold their kinsmen into slavery were deeply religious too. 
Looking back with the eyes of today. The slaves of yesteryear where war prisoners, better to be a slave than given no quarter. This was endemic among all peoples.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_quarter

Among other lovely mindsets of yesteryear, genocide ok if you won the war, killing unwanted babies, starvation for economics, virtual slavery of the lower classes, etc.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/06/2020 11:54:25
The slaves of yesteryear where war prisoners,
Really?  I thought they were travelers' children.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever:

But, I guess that's only what the Bible says, so there's no reason to take it seriously.

Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 03/07/2020 06:57:30
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.

The US is a big country, and the language and culture comes from England and Europe. But it has it's own developments amidst a lot of violence and racism. There are many drivers and buyers of slaves. From a culture of violence and hot media. 50% in the US live at or below the poverty line. The prisons are full. Despite them being our cousins they are a unique country.

What option do they have for elections and, what do they do if unemployed? There are villains there. I don't know what the church can do other than protect youth and reform some of the villains who had faith.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/07/2020 08:40:52
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Not really. though that's part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century
What option do they have for elections
Anyone but Trump.
But he's the one exploiting religion.

Simplistically, he's the one keeping the churches open during a a plague whereas science wants them closed.
Religion is putting people in danger, and Trump is exploiting it- with the collusion of the churches.

The evil man is the religious one.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/07/2020 10:20:49
In most recent slavery prosecutions in the UK the victims were middle-aged men "employed" as farm laborers. 'Twas ever thus.   
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/07/2020 10:51:41
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Nope.
"In the year ending March 2019, where the age and sex of the victim were known in modern slavery offences, the data showed 58% were male and 42% were female (Table 23)."
from
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020

Why do you persist in putting forward your views on a science site, in spite of the reality that the facts don't agree with you?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 03/07/2020 11:02:39
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Not really. though that's part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century
What option do they have for elections
Anyone but Trump.
But he's the one exploiting religion.

Simplistically, he's the one keeping the churches open during a a plague whereas science wants them closed.
Religion is putting people in danger, and Trump is exploiting it- with the collusion of the churches.

The evil man is the religious one.
I thought the churches in the USA were closed. I remember seeing one preacher in a mug shot for attending church.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 03/07/2020 11:04:07
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Nope.
"In the year ending March 2019, where the age and sex of the victim were known in modern slavery offences, the data showed 58% were male and 42% were female (Table 23)."
from
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020

Why do you persist in putting forward your views on a science site, in spite of the reality that the facts don't agree with you?
I know about slave labour but what I dislike most are young women forced to work as prostitutes.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 03/07/2020 15:24:57
In most recent slavery prosecutions in the UK the victims were middle-aged men "employed" as farm laborers. 'Twas ever thus.   
They got food and shelter, what more do you want ?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/07/2020 16:03:06
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Not really. though that's part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century
What option do they have for elections
Anyone but Trump.
But he's the one exploiting religion.

Simplistically, he's the one keeping the churches open during a a plague whereas science wants them closed.
Religion is putting people in danger, and Trump is exploiting it- with the collusion of the churches.

The evil man is the religious one.
I thought the churches in the USA were closed. I remember seeing one preacher in a mug shot for attending church.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/07/2020 16:05:01
These days slaves are drawn from whichever young women are most attractive and not sufficiently protected.
Nope.
"In the year ending March 2019, where the age and sex of the victim were known in modern slavery offences, the data showed 58% were male and 42% were female (Table 23)."
from
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/modernslaveryintheuk/march2020

Why do you persist in putting forward your views on a science site, in spite of the reality that the facts don't agree with you?
I know about slave labour but what I dislike most are young women forced to work as prostitutes.
Did you somehow think that your dislike of it made 42 bigger than 58?
I know about slave labour
You quite plainly do not know.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/07/2020 16:06:22
I thought the churches in the USA were closed.
Most notably, when the Idiot President marched to a church and posed outside,  waving his Little Black Book, it was plain for all to see that the church was boarded and barricaded. Even those whose business is forgiving sinners, don't want him on the premises. 
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/07/2020 16:15:03
IIRC most London prostitutes are self-employed and many are unionised. This is politically necessary as money spent on prostitution is included in the Gross Domestic Product, and in times of serious governmental incompetence (like now) this may be the only active area of The Holy Economy, so their tax returns are very important.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 04/07/2020 13:00:57
I agree, slave labour in the form of manual labour and such does also matter a lot. I have focused on sex slavery since 2003. Not religious but natural care for lovely women. From the morality looking at marriage, and caring for the woman I may marry, and hating for someone to enslave her.

Since most slavery is manual, I should take an interest in that. There is in England a NGO Stopthetraffik.

It does not look like Trump is scientific minded. Dealing with a virus it seems he is mistaken. We can pray from home.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/07/2020 13:13:27
It does not look like Trump is scientific minded.
Well, we might not always agree, but I think you got that right.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/07/2020 17:51:53
We can pray from home.
To whom, for what? Will you be asking the Creator of the Universe to change His mind about something? Hubris is a sin. 
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: syhprum on 04/07/2020 21:09:37
To what continent does England belong? , I always thought that geographically at least the British isles were part of Europe
   
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/07/2020 22:10:11
To what continent does England belong? , I always thought that geographically at least the British isles were part of Europe
   
Apparently 52 % of those who voted didn't understand that.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 07/07/2020 09:56:22
Religion and spirituality can make it harder to call others sub human.
The one thing all religions have in common is that each one teaches you to despise all the others.

The sooner the national curriculum drops "religious tolerance" in favor of intellect and logic, the better. Meanwhile, as a brief interlude in the Catholic-Protestant war, we have Sunnis and Shias killing one another and Boko Haram taking schoolgirls into slavery for the greater glory of the Abrahamic God and his Prophet. India and Pakistan having been partitioned on religious grounds, the slaughter continues from time to time.

Religion, of course, deals with eternal truths and unchanging morality. Such as whether women are fit to be priests and whether priests should molest children.
Surely some religions and spiritualities teach love. I think of reconciliation with first peoples. Mother Theresa of Calcutta, charities, CFAN going from Germany, once military, to Africa and loving pagans and Muslims, appealing to them to love Jesus. Sure some people tragically love Jesus but hate His enemies. But that is not what Jesus wanted. The Christians are a different lot from the Muslims and Hindus.

It seems the RCC finished with bad priests secretly just over thirty years ago, with the last reports of abuses seeming to stop then. But they were sluggish.

I don't hate Catholics and Anglicans. We fellowship. I get on with Buddhists and Muslims also.

I think instead of tolerate religion, embrace spirituality. Worship light and love and compassion and honour and wisdom. Instead of money and cars, and pleasures... which can lead to greed.

The churches are conscientious and are able as a whole to repent. The church laws change.

Terms like Human and subhuman are 20th century ideas coming to fame in Nazi Germany. The churches refer to souls and the cross is for all of them. The medieval church was greatly in the wrong with some shining stars, the saints. And the revivalists.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/07/2020 11:10:20

Surely some religions and spiritualities teach love. I think of reconciliation with first peoples.
Do you mean the surviving remnant of native Americans and Australians who were deprived of their land and rights and forcibly "converted" to christianity?

Quote
Mother Theresa of Calcutta, charities, CFAN going from Germany, once military, to Africa and loving pagans and Muslims, appealing to them to love Jesus.
I repeat, all religions teach you to despise all the others. And you have just given the perfect example. "Loving" my arse.

Quote
Sure some people tragically love Jesus but hate His enemies. But that is not what Jesus wanted. The Christians are a different lot from the Muslims and Hindus.
  "How odd of God to choose the Jews, but odder still are those who choose the Jewish God and spurn the Jews"

Quote
It seems the RCC finished with bad priests secretly just over thirty years ago, with the last reports of abuses seeming to stop then. But they were sluggish.
  On the contrary, there are civil and criminal prosecutions currently ongoing. "Sluggish" is a poor euphemism for "criminally complicit".   

Quote
I don't hate Catholics and Anglicans. We fellowship. I get on with Buddhists and Muslims also.
How awfully decent of you. No mention  of Jews, Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, Quakers, Anabaptists....All of whom at some time have been or still are being persecuted by one or other, not for what they do, but for what they are. 

Quote
I think instead of tolerate religion, embrace spirituality. Worship light and love and compassion and honour and wisdom. Instead of money and cars, and pleasures... which can lead to greed.
If you can invent a greed-free substitute for money, a better way of travelling than a car, and a pleasurable substitute for pleasure, I'm sure the world will be a better place (though you won't profit from your inventions, of course). Meanwhile, the stuff we have seems to work OK.

Quote
The churches are conscientious and are able as a whole to repent. The church laws change.
repentance may make you feel better but it won't bring your victim back to life. The stain of sin is indelible.

Quote
Terms like Human and subhuman are 20th century ideas coming to fame in Nazi Germany.
  "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis, and the Quran. Human and subhuman applies to pretty well every religion other than Buddhism (though some modern Buddhists are happy to slaughter Muslims) and has done so for at least 4000 years.

Quote
The churches refer to souls
now and again. The Hebrew Genesis grants a nefesh (soul) to all animals, but it was removed by the christian churches when bear baiting was popular. It seems to have crept back in more recent versions as the eco-vote has increased.

Quote
  and the cross is for all of them.
I hope not. I find worshipping an instrument of torture and singing songs about the Blood of the Lamb to be repugnant. Not to mention Sunday's ritualised cannibalism.

Quote
The medieval church was greatly in the wrong with some shining stars, the saints. And the revivalists.
Which revival? Witch burning? The Dutch Reform Church supporting apartheid? Mormon racism?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 07/07/2020 12:14:08
quote author=alancalverd link=topic=79882.msg607942#msg607942 date=1594116620]

Surely some religions and spiritualities teach love. I think of reconciliation with first peoples.
Do you mean the surviving remnant of native Americans and Australians who were deprived of their land and rights and forcibly "converted" to christianity?

Quote
Mother Theresa of Calcutta, charities, CFAN going from Germany, once military, to Africa and loving pagans and Muslims, appealing to them to love Jesus.
I repeat, all religions teach you to despise all the others. And you have just given the perfect example. "Loving" my arse.

Quote
Sure some people tragically love Jesus but hate His enemies. But that is not what Jesus wanted. The Christians are a different lot from the Muslims and Hindus.
  "How odd of God to choose the Jews, but odder still are those who choose the Jewish God and spurn the Jews"

Quote
It seems the RCC finished with bad priests secretly just over thirty years ago, with the last reports of abuses seeming to stop then. But they were sluggish.
  On the contrary, there are civil and criminal prosecutions currently ongoing. "Sluggish" is a poor euphemism for "criminally complicit".   

Quote
I don't hate Catholics and Anglicans. We fellowship. I get on with Buddhists and Muslims also.
How awfully decent of you. No mention  of Jews, Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, Quakers, Anabaptists....All of whom at some time have been or still are being persecuted by one or other, not for what they do, but for what they are. 

Quote
I think instead of tolerate religion, embrace spirituality. Worship light and love and compassion and honour and wisdom. Instead of money and cars, and pleasures... which can lead to greed.
If you can invent a greed-free substitute for money, a better way of travelling than a car, and a pleasurable substitute for pleasure, I'm sure the world will be a better place (though you won't profit from your inventions, of course). Meanwhile, the stuff we have seems to work OK.

Quote
The churches are conscientious and are able as a whole to repent. The church laws change.
repentance may make you feel better but it won't bring your victim back to life. The stain of sin is indelible.

Quote
Terms like Human and subhuman are 20th century ideas coming to fame in Nazi Germany.
  "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis, and the Quran. Human and subhuman applies to pretty well every religion other than Buddhism (though some modern Buddhists are happy to slaughter Muslims) and has done so for at least 4000 years.

Quote
The churches refer to souls
now and again. The Hebrew Genesis grants a nefesh (soul) to all animals, but it was removed by the christian churches when bear baiting was popular. It seems to have crept back in more recent versions as the eco-vote has increased.

Quote
  and the cross is for all of them.
I hope not. I find worshipping an instrument of torture and singing songs about the Blood of the Lamb to be repugnant. Not to mention Sunday's ritualised cannibalism.

Quote
The medieval church was greatly in the wrong with some shining stars, the saints. And the revivalists.
Which revival? Witch burning? The Dutch Reform Church supporting apartheid? Mormon racism?
[/quote]

The remnant of Native Americans in Canada. There has been some effort to reconcile with them.

The spurning of the Jews by Christians has changed. I don’t agree with my grand parents. It is popular now to learn Hebrew and fellowship with the Jews.

The RCC is sluggish, they take long to change church wide. But aren’t those cases of bad priests thirty years old? I think the confessional is used to determine who can and who can’t become a priest…

I was concise about getting on with others, the short list being my neighbours.

Worshipping something other than love itself and the benevolent qualities can lead to a greed for pleasure, money and cars… out of proportion. So a husband tells his wife their conception best be aborted to save money for a new car and for a better sex life. A matter of presence versus feeling and materials.

The stain of sin matters. Christ Jesus paid for it by the work on the cross, which we worship instead of the wood. The Creator of life can fill losses. He can restore and pardon.

We have dominion over animals and plants, but not each other. And in practice kindness to animals is favourable.

Revival is revival of pre-dark ages practice. The gifts of knowledge and healings, worship in Spirit and in Truth, love, ending witch hunts and violence. Receiving grace, seeking the sinners, preaching in the native tongue.

We respect blood transfusions, how much easier the blood of Jesus? No needles.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bill S on 07/07/2020 14:49:41
Quote from: Europan Ocean
  I think the confessional is used to determine who can and who can’t become a priest…

You seem to have your own idea as to how the confessional “works”.  Strange!
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/07/2020 16:19:01
The remnant of Native Americans in Canada. There has been some effort to reconcile with them.
I see no great exodus of the white people occupying native land, and at least in Quebec, Christians get preferential tax rates.
 
Quote
So a husband tells his wife their conception best be aborted to save money for a new car and for a better sex life.
Abortion is always distasteful and an admission of poor planning, but is it a Good Thing to make babies you can't feed? Or to demand that  a 10-year-old girl carry to term?

Quote
The stain of sin matters. Christ Jesus paid for it by the work on the cross,
Does his "work" exonerate all sins, only those committed before AD, or only those committed thereafter? Committed by whom? And what definition of sin? Isn't your statement a licence to do any damn thing you like, because the price has been paid in advance?

Quote
He can restore
Evidence?
Quote
and pardon
Why? What's wrong with just retribution and punishment, if only to deter others?

Quote
We respect blood transfusions,
So "we" excludes Jehovah's Witnesses and a few others.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/07/2020 18:05:10
But aren’t those cases of bad priests thirty years old?
No.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/07/2020 23:27:01
To what continent does England belong? , I always thought that geographically at least the British isles were part of Europe
   
Apparently 52 % of those who voted didn't understand that.
Geographically, these islands are on the European continental shelf. Politically, the inhabitants have been at war with some or other part of mainland Europe for most of the last 2100 years - I blame the Romans for attempting to destroy a prehistoric coastal trade route. Culturally, most of us are more closely aligned with the civilised remnants of the British Empire than anything else.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 09/07/2020 23:44:37
But aren’t those cases of bad priests thirty years old?
No.

Do you have a link?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 10/07/2020 00:10:16
The remnant of Native Americans in Canada. There has been some effort to reconcile with them.
I see no great exodus of the white people occupying native land, and at least in Quebec, Christians get preferential tax rates.
 
Quote
So a husband tells his wife their conception best be aborted to save money for a new car and for a better sex life.
Abortion is always distasteful and an admission of poor planning, but is it a Good Thing to make babies you can't feed? Or to demand that  a 10-year-old girl carry to term?

Quote
The stain of sin matters. Christ Jesus paid for it by the work on the cross,
Does his "work" exonerate all sins, only those committed before AD, or only those committed thereafter? Committed by whom? And what definition of sin? Isn't your statement a licence to do any damn thing you like, because the price has been paid in advance?

Quote
He can restore
Evidence?
Quote
and pardon
Why? What's wrong with just retribution and punishment, if only to deter others?

Quote
We respect blood transfusions,
So "we" excludes Jehovah's Witnesses and a few others.

No girls can’t carry full term, I don’t know what they can do if worst comes to worst. I think I’d rather be a thin boy than be aborted.

People who mostly value pleasures may leave their spouse after time for another when it suits their pleasures, like after a few babies and the birth passage is stretched. And they have the honours to maintain, but it is not honours that matter to them.

St Paul raised the licence to sin issue in Romans. “Should we sin more so that God’s grace increases”, and “if sinning glorifies God, then why am I in the wrong?”

Sin is usually injustice, and disobedience, with Christ as the Way to follow. All sins are covered by the blood from upon the cross. The original likeness of God is the Way, and we need grace to be regenerate. Inwards grace.

By the Bible we expect Uriah the Hittite, killed by King David is restored. God has unlimited resources. And there are present day people being restored, like Jan Eriksen, the testimony of pimp to preacher. Billy Graham, like many, from ancient pagan times to recent past full life evangelist. There is the ancient story of Job. The literal example of the Hebrews being freed and endowed with wealth in Exodus and the meaning by interpretation today.

Jesus' blood for a sinner dishonoured restores honour. There is the term, "born again virgin", coined by Lisa Bevere, a second chance to get married after being a fornicator. And to teach…

Joy is restored to those receiving Holy Laughter the phenomena under Rodney Howard Browne Ministries. I met one person who overcame depression with such laughter. I experienced some of this manifestation myself.

To receive these things one must repent or be prepared to change from bad ways.

Bad priests have no salt, no testimony of how God changed their lives. Repentance usually has this. They don’t repent, they only confess, probably the same sins over and over again.

Pardoned people still get discipline and sometimes are punished by the law. The law is okay.

Pardoning can also change a person’s path.

I don’t make exhaustive lists to include JWs...
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: alancalverd on 24/07/2020 14:37:37
The literal example of the Hebrews being freed and endowed with wealth in Exodus
Apart, that is, from those who had already died in slavery, died en route to the Promised Land, or tortured to death some years later in the Name of Jesus.

Life is to short to pick holes in the rest of your argument, but if it were a boat, I'd rather fly.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/07/2020 17:59:39
But aren’t those cases of bad priests thirty years old?
No.

Do you have a link?
The Pope confidently expects the problem to continue.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/world/europe/pope-francis-child-abuse-summit.html
Why do you not believe it?
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Europan Ocean on 25/07/2020 02:48:50
The literal example of the Hebrews being freed and endowed with wealth in Exodus
Apart, that is, from those who had already died in slavery, died en route to the Promised Land, or tortured to death some years later in the Name of Jesus.

Life is to short to pick holes in the rest of your argument, but if it were a boat, I'd rather fly.
I suppose the continually disagreement I have with you stems from the nature of the church in medieval times. False church or faulty teaching churches.
Title: Re: When have religious gatherings been illegal?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/07/2020 12:11:29
The literal example of the Hebrews being freed and endowed with wealth in Exodus
Apart, that is, from those who had already died in slavery, died en route to the Promised Land, or tortured to death some years later in the Name of Jesus.

Life is to short to pick holes in the rest of your argument, but if it were a boat, I'd rather fly.
I suppose the continually disagreement I have with you stems from the nature of the church in medieval times. False church or faulty teaching churches.
The problem is that you haven't noticed that the church is still medieval.

Hence- for example-
The Pope confidently expects the problem to continue.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/world/europe/pope-francis-child-abuse-summit.html