Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: trevorjohnson32 on 24/10/2020 18:44:06

Title: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 24/10/2020 18:44:06
If a moving object created a wave in space behind it then the energy of its velocity would convert into the wave and the object would slow down like turning the engine off on a boat. As we all know objects moving through space continue on trajectory unless acted on by an outside force, not a gravity wave. And if for example two binary black holes did create such a wave it would push them apart not draw them together which is total GR fantasm.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/10/2020 19:37:59
If a moving object created a wave in space behind it then the energy of its velocity would convert into the wave and the object would slow down
And they do.
", the rate of decrease of orbital period is 76.5 microseconds per year, "
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulse%E2%80%93Taylor_binary#Use_as_a_test_of_General_Relativity

What was your point?
And if for example two binary black holes did create such a wave it would push them apart
No, gravity never really pushes.
it would push them apart
No, that's just a fantasy of yours.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 24/10/2020 21:03:15
And they do.
", the rate of decrease of orbital period is 76.5 microseconds per year, "
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulse%E2%80%93Taylor_binary#Use_as_a_test_of_General_Relativity

Then the object moving would slow down and stop. Do I have to remind you that meteor's don't have rocket engine's?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/10/2020 21:26:40
Then the object moving would slow down and stop
And they do.
But what you seem to be ignoring is when gravity waves are produced.
Do I have to remind you that meteor's don't have rocket engine's?
That's largely why they don't produce gravity waves.

Without an engine they travel through space at a constant velocity.
Their acceleration is zero and so their emission of gravity waves is zero.

But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

Did you consider actually finding out about gravity waves before making a fool of yourself?
Even reading the first line of the wiki page would have stopped you looking dumb.
"Gravitational waves are disturbances in the curvature of spacetime, generated by accelerated masses"

On a related note, misusing apostrophes also makes you look dim.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 24/10/2020 21:41:59
Then the object moving would slow down and stop
And they do.
But what you seem to be ignoring is when gravity waves are produced.
Do I have to remind you that meteor's don't have rocket engine's?
That's largely why they don't produce gravity waves.

Without an engine they travel through space at a constant velocity.
Their acceleration is zero and so their emission of gravity waves is zero.

But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

Did you consider actually finding out about gravity waves before making a fool of yourself?
Even reading the first line of the wiki page would have stopped you looking dumb.
"Gravitational waves are disturbances in the curvature of spacetime, generated by accelerated masses"

On a related note, misusing apostrophes also makes you look dim.

Well I'm going to have to ask you to step outside the box of pompous asses who believe in relativity and answer me how do two orbiting objects create an engine to fuel their acceleration? That sounds totally ridiculous. Your dealing with constant speeds of things not a magic engine where you see convenient.

It all comes down to the movement of weight through the universe, if weight circulating creates a gravity wave why wouldn't objects at super high speeds? If you break gravity down to individual particles of matter, what does it matter if an object is rotating or moving mono directional?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 24/10/2020 22:09:29
Quote from: OP
If a moving accelerating object created a wave in space behind it then the energy of its velocity would convert into the wave and the object would slow down like turning the engine off on a boat
Objects in orbital motion around each other are always being accelerated towards their center of mass.
- That is the recipe for emitting gravitational waves
- An object moving through space at a uniform velocity is not being accelerated by gravity, and will not emit gravitational waves. Its kinetic energy will not be converted to gravitational waves, and it will not slow down.
- As per Einstein's theory of relativity, all motion is relative; there is no absolute "stationary" frame of reference in the universe towards which an object could "slow down".

Let's take as an example GW170817, an event where two neutron stars collided, leaving a visible remnant in gamma rays, visible light and infra-red.
- The detected frequency started off about 40 Hz, and increased to around 300Hz over 30 seconds before the gravitational waves stopped, and the gamma ray burst was received, indicating that the two objects had a messy merger.
- This does not represent a conversion of kinetic energy into gravitational waves. If so, the objects would slow down.
- Instead, it represents conversion of gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy + gravitational waves.
- As the two orbiting neutron stars get closer, their orbital speed increases, as shown by the increasing frequency of the gravitational waves (ie their kinetic energy increases, when measured in the frame of their center of mass)
- Eventually, the two neutron stars are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light when they splat into each other, spraying highly radioactive neutronium into space; this was then detected by gamma ray (and other) telescopes.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817

Quote
how do two orbiting objects create an engine to fuel their acceleration?
It is fueled by gravitational potential energy.

Two objects separated at a distance in a gravitational field have gravitational potential energy which can be converted to increased velocity as the two objects get closer.

Quote
Do I have to remind you that meteor's don't have rocket engine's?
Meteors accelerate as they approach the Earth, because they are accelerated by Earth's gravitational field. This can add up to 11km/s onto their original speed as they orbited the Sun.

This was particularly spectacular in the case of comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, where Jupiter's gravity accelerated the fragments up to about 60 km/s, one of them creating an explosion the diameter of the Earth...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Shoemaker%E2%80%93Levy_9

PS: Overlap with  trevorjohnson32...
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/10/2020 23:17:58
answer me how do two orbiting objects create an engine to fuel their acceleration? That sounds totally ridiculous.
They don't.
It's something you invented.
You are right about it being ridiculous.

Why did you make up that ridiculous idea?
Your dealing with constant speeds of things not a magic engine where you see convenient.
*you're*

And the magic engine is your idea; not ours.
You are strawmanning and it won't work.

why wouldn't objects at super high speeds?
Among the answers to that is that velocity - the "super high speed" you talk of is relative, but acceleration is absolute.
From the perspective of another "super high speed" thing travelling alongside, your " super high speed" is stationary.
Did you not learn any physics?

If you break gravity down to individual particles of matter, what does it matter if an object is rotating or moving mono directional?
Simplistic idea is centripetal force.
They really are different things.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 24/10/2020 23:19:14
create an engine to fuel their acceleration
Engines don't fuel things, BTW.
Saying stuff like that just makes you look dim.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 25/10/2020 00:26:57
If a moving object created a wave in space behind it then the energy of its velocity would convert into the wave and the object would slow down like turning the engine off on a boat.

Yes, but objects moving at constant velocity through space don't generate gravitational waves. So your initial premise is flawed. This is a straw-man argument.

And if for example two binary black holes did create such a wave it would push them apart not draw them together which is total GR fantasm.

Not according to conservation of energy, it won't. Gravitational waves carry away energy, which means that the system must have less energy after emitting gravitational waves than it did beforehand. Pushing black holes apart, however, requires energy input because you are raising both of them against a gravitational potential. So this is another incorrect analysis.

Then the object moving would slow down and stop.

Nope.

Well I'm going to have to ask you to step outside the box of pompous asses who believe in relativity

"Believe in relativity" is a very poor phrase to use for this. "Accepting the reality of relativity" is a much better phrase. Relativity has passed every test put to it to date. It is exceptionally well supported by the evidence. Those who deny it often do so because they hold misconceptions about how it actually works (such as your misconception that a non-accelerating, moving object should release gravitational waves. That, in itself, would contradict the principle of relativity because such an object is in an inertial reference frame).

Besides, this whole thing is moot because we have actually detected gravitational waves many times and they have the properties that relativity predicts that they should have.


answer me how do two orbiting objects create an engine to fuel their acceleration?

The transformation of gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy is what causes orbiting objects to accelerate as their orbital distance decreases. As has already been pointed out, the Hulse-Taylor binary is an empirical observation of this fact. The fact that the planets' orbital speed increases as their distance from the Sun decreases is another such such supporting observation.



That sounds totally ridiculous.

And yet it's true. When one's reasoning clashes with observed reality, then one should reassess their reasoning.

Your dealing with constant speeds of things not a magic engine where you see convenient.

Objects in orbit are experiencing angular acceleration.

It all comes down to the movement of weight through the universe, if weight circulating creates a gravity wave why wouldn't objects at super high speeds? If you break gravity down to individual particles of matter, what does it matter if an object is rotating or moving mono directional?

Because acceleration and constant speed have different consequences. Acceleration is necessary for the emission of gravitational waves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave#Sources This is analogous to the emission of electromagnetic waves. An electrically-charged object moving with a constant velocity with not emit electromagnetic waves, whereas an accelerating, electrically-charged object will.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/10/2020 17:04:56
If a moving object created a wave in space behind it then the energy of its velocity would convert into the wave and the object would slow down like turning the engine off on a boat. As we all know objects moving through space continue on trajectory unless acted on by an outside force, not a gravity wave. And if for example two binary black holes did create such a wave it would push them apart not draw them together which is total GR fantasm.
Can we clarify something?
When you say "Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy", are you talking about your fantasy?
Because it seems to be a fantasy of yours that fast moving things create gravity waves, and another fantasy that acceleration is comparable with velocity?

Nobody else is saying stuff like that.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 26/10/2020 00:26:40
So a boat doing a circle in the water creates a wave vs a boat that goes straight which would create no wave?

It isn't hard to detect that you need long confusing explanations to describe something that its probably flawed and you don't want to admit it. Whatever you think you've learned it sounds like fantasy based on the uncertain results of a 133 year old experiment that was flawed in the first place.

Sorry my answers are concise without confusion of math's. I just point out the obvious quicker and don't need long winded answers.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 26/10/2020 03:44:34
So a boat doing a circle in the water creates a wave vs a boat that goes straight which would create no wave?

False analogy: space is not water and does not behave like water.

It isn't hard to detect that you need long confusing explanations to describe something that its probably flawed and you don't want to admit it.

Please provide evidence that it is "probably flawed".

Whatever you think you've learned it sounds like fantasy

Argument from incredulity fallacy.

based on the uncertain results of a 133 year old experiment that was flawed in the first place.

LIGO and VIRGO aren't 133 years old...

Sorry my answers are concise without confusion of math's.

But it does have the confusion of being wrong. You have demonstrated misconceptions about how relativity works because you claim that a non-accelerating object should emit gravitational waves.

I just point out the obvious quicker and don't need long winded answers.

It's "obvious" that the Earth is flat.
It's "obvious" that the Sun moves around the Earth.

You'd be doing yourself a favor by doing the prerequisite research before you made claims that go against the observational evidence. Please try that next time.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 08:46:45
So a boat doing a circle in the water creates a wave vs a boat that goes straight which would create no wave?
We can add that one to this list of things that only you believe- your fantasies..
When you say "Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy", are you talking about your fantasy?
Because it seems to be a fantasy of yours that fast moving things create gravity waves, and another fantasy that acceleration is comparable with velocity?


Whatever you think you've learned it sounds like fantasy based on the uncertain results of a 133 year old experiment that was flawed in the first place.
This graph shows not only the data , but also the dates when that data was collected- from 1975 to 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulse%E2%80%93Taylor_binary#/media/File:PSR_B1913+16_period_shift_graph.svg

Sorry my answers are concise without confusion of math's.
I feel that calling  observations taken over the period 1970 to 2005 "a 133 year old experiment " is very clearly confusion of maths. You should probably also sort out your confusion of apostrophes.

I just point out the obvious quicker and don't need long winded answers.
You can do it quickly- or you can do it well.
You chose the wrong option.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: puppypower on 26/10/2020 11:14:31
Velocity is d/t, while acceleration is d/t/t. Acceleration is to two parts time ad one part distance while velocity has one part time and one part distance. The "gravity wave" due to acceleration is connected to the extra time associated with acceleration, and is really not a gravity wave.

The anomaly as a whole is  local space-time being tweak in time, not mass, with space then following the lead expected by the mass. The perturbation is what we call a gravity wave, since it appears connected to the final output in space-time=gravity.

However, the wave-particle nature of matter and energy has never coughed up a graviton along with the "gravity waves", Therefore this is not directly connected to gravity, but to the acceleration or extra time potential.

I take a different view of the universe. I use the speed of light as the ground state or the state of lowest potential. In the lab matter only form at highest energy as particle pairs. Mass, gravity and space-time are at higher potential that the ground state at c.  The goal of all the forces and all the phenomena of nature is to lower inertial potentials back toward the ground state. The Forces of nature give off energy at the speed of light to reflect lowering of potential with the ground state. Energy is bridge state to the ground state.

At the speed of light reference, space and time are not connected, so each; time and space, can act by itself. The gravity wave, due to acceleration, is one such phenomena in time. Special Relativity shows mathematical discontinuities in space, time and mass at the speed of light. These three are all connected, but in inertial only. Therefore, we interpret the output, using an inertial reference bias, but we do try to not measure the time potential the drives the final affect.

When two large masses collide in space, and space-time contracts, both masses gain potential in inertial time since time slows for both. This adds potential in time relative to the ground state. Something has to give, so potential can lower again; burst of energy and gravity waves to increase entropy.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 11:30:42
The "gravity wave" ... is really not a gravity wave.
Yes it is.

Having listed a few of the OP's fantasies, I might as well do the same for PuppyPower.
His usual fantasy takes the form that phrases are meaningful when they are not- for example:


ocal space-time being tweak in time,
pace then following the lead expected by the mass.
I use the speed of light as the ground state or the state of lowest potential.
At the speed of light reference,
masses gain potential in inertial time

there are probably others.
It's the sort of thing to expect from someone who believes in homoeopathy.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Colin2B on 26/10/2020 14:37:56
However, the wave-particle nature of matter and energy has never coughed up a graviton along with the "gravity waves", Therefore this is not directly connected to gravity, but to the acceleration or extra time potential.
I think you and the OP mean gravitational waves. Gravity waves are those where the restoring force is due to gravity eg ocean waves, sub-surface waves, atmospheric waves etc.
Helps if you learn the correct terminology.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 15:04:48
However, the wave-particle nature of matter and energy has never coughed up a graviton along with the "gravity waves", Therefore this is not directly connected to gravity, but to the acceleration or extra time potential.
I think you and the OP mean gravitational waves. Gravity waves are those where the restoring force is due to gravity eg ocean waves, sub-surface waves, atmospheric waves etc.
Helps if you learn the correct terminology.
Oops!
Fortunately, if both sides make the same mistake it doesn't detract from the matter.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 26/10/2020 17:54:52
I'll be damned if I ever call them gravitational waves vs gravity waves. Nothing really comes to mind when I read any of your responses because it's all arrogant rubbish that would take years of studying or rather brain washing to understand.

As for the boat analogy it still stands that an object creating a wave behind it slows down, end of discussion!

Quiet sick of arguing this with the internet, Doesn't seem to get anything done. It's probably why fusion reactors and lasers don't have a chance in hell in working because all the 'professional genius's' are gathered around with telescopes to see if the reactor wilol create a gravity wave! Three simple words 'Twin clock paradox'.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 18:58:46
Nothing really comes to mind when I read any of your responses because it's all arrogant rubbish that would take years of studying
You have finally got to the root of the problem.
You never did your homework.
Quiet sick of arguing this with the internet
Then stop.

Apart from anything else, if you really think that modern physics is wrong, and you want to rpove it, you will need to understand it first.
Otherwise you just look stupid (see above).
So, rather than pointlessly shouting nonsense, why not go and study it?
Or are you just too lazy?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 26/10/2020 19:26:09
s

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 20:10:01
s

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.
How?
The only languages in which that explanation is possible are maths and physics.
And you have made it clear that you will not learn them.

It's not my fault that you choose to argue from a position of self imposed ignorance, is it?
So, rather than pointlessly shouting nonsense, why not go and study it?
Or are you just too lazy?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 26/10/2020 20:32:45
Quote from: trevorjohnson32
lasers don't have a chance in hell in working
The only reason that your message appeared on my screen is that it passed over a laser beam from my local telephone exchange to a small box in the ground, just outside my neighbor's house.
It got to my local telephone exchange via another laser beam.
It got to me in Australia via a series of other laser beams.

Lasers work quite well, in many applications....
- Unlike the early days...
Quote from: Irnee D'Haenens
the laser is a solution looking for a problem
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/10/2020 21:09:12
It's probably why fusion reactors and lasers don't have a chance in hell in working
Both fusion reactors and lasers work quite well.

It's like saying that busses don't work.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 26/10/2020 22:55:25
As for the boat analogy it still stands that an object creating a wave behind it slows down, end of discussion!

Yes, an object creating a wave behind it would indeed slow it down. However, objects traveling at constant velocity don't create gravitational waves so there is nothing to slow it down. Please stop clinging to that straw-man.

Doesn't seem to get anything done.

For the same reason that flat-Earthers don't "seem to get anything done", it seems.

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.

We already have: space isn't water and doesn't behave like water. Space doesn't exert a drag force like water does.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 27/10/2020 01:31:23
- As per Einstein's theory of relativity, all motion is relative; there is no absolute "stationary" frame of reference in the universe towards which an object could "slow down".

I may start floating around then. Anywho I just wanted to point out that if a comet going around the sun lost its momentum energy that takes place as it  'swings' around the sun then it would eventually get dragged into the sun and we don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 27/10/2020 07:39:34
For the most part, objects in orbit (or even a highly eccentric orbit like a comet), don't experience a loss of total energy as they orbit. The energy is changed back and forth between gravitational potential energy and kinetic energy. Tidal effects can cause a net transfer of energy between the orbiting objects, but it is usually very small (especially when the object has a very long orbital period). The energy lost due to gravitational radiation from a comet would be negligible.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 27/10/2020 10:38:51
Quote from: trevorjohnson32
I just wanted to point out that if a comet going around the sun lost its momentum energy that takes place as it  'swings' around the sun then it would eventually get dragged into the sun and we don't see that happening.
Comets
We don't see the effects of gravitational radiation in comets around the Sun, because the radiation of energy due to gravitational waves is miniscule in the Sun's relatively weak gravitational field.
- The Earth is much more massive than a comet, and also fairly close to the Sun. But the energy radiated away by gravitational waves by the Earth-Sun system is estimated as something like 200 Watts - much less than a toaster.
- Gravitational radiation has no measurable impact on the kinetic energy of the Earth traveling around the Sun.

One characteristic of comets is that they have very eccentric orbits - long and thin.
- For example, the well-known Halley's Comet has an orbital eccentricity of 0.967
- Compared with 0.017 for the Earth
- with eccentricity of 0 being a perfect circle and 1 being a parabolic trajectory that doesn't come back

Neutron Stars
Now take a star with more mass than the Sun, and over 1 million km across.
- Compress it down to a neutron star, only 20km across.
- The gravitational attraction goes up by a factor of 4 if you halve the distance
- Reduce the distance by a factor of 50 thousand, and the strength increases by 2.5 billion
- The gravitational field near the surface is now far more intense, and you have a much better chance to observe gravitational wave effects

Now take two neutron stars on very elliptical orbits around their center of mass:
- For most of the orbit, when they are far apart, they radiate very little energy in the form of gravitational waves
- But when they are closest together (periastron), they radiate a short, more intense burst of gravitational waves
- The effect of this is to reduce the velocity when they are their closest
- Which reduces the distance they are able to draw apart on the next orbit
- If you wanted to make their periastron get even closer, you would take out kinetic energy when they are farthest apart. But gravitational wave radiation is lowest at this point, so the separation at periastron doesn't change much.
- So over time, the orbit becomes less eccentric, and gradually becomes more circular
- When the orbit is circular, the pair of black holes is now radiating gravitational waves more continually, at the same rate as it previously radiated in only short bursts
- This continuous radiation of gravitational waves causes the orbit to spiral inwards at an accelerating rate
- The Hulse-Taylor pulsar now has an eccentricity of 0.617, which is much more circular than a typical comet, but less circular than a typical planet.
- It is observed that the eccentricity is slowly reducing, by about 10-11 per year
See: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/7974/hulse-taylor-binary-pulsar-how-is-cumulative-periastron-time-shift-calculate

PS: At the risk of being considered a pompous ass, I would point out that the point of closest approach in the Hulse-Taylor pulsar is changing angle at a rate of about 4° per year.
- This is a result of time dilation when they are deep within their mutual gravitational well
- This is as predicted by the equations of General Relativity.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 29/10/2020 19:35:20
But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

If the acceleration turned into a wave, you would be messing with the visible nature of the Universe. When you break it down the movement of individual particles with individual gravity fields, whether they are stuffed in a black hole or riding in a comet, are whats going to create a gravity wave. A collision or explosion would again be the movement of individual particles and any wave they create would slow the matter down. Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path. Letting a gyroscope and three objects in space attract each other may effect the tilt of a gyrosopce but it's not going to pick up 'waves'.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity, I don't know what business they have detecting them with telescopes at LIGO.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/10/2020 20:07:45
you would be messing with the visible nature of the Universe.
No.
We can see the waves and their effects in much the same way that we see most of the universe- through some sort of instrument.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity,
Bollocks.
This is what you use to measure gravity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter

And what you use to measure gravity waves is  something like LIGO that is built to measure the disturbances of space as the waves pass through.
Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path.
I'm ignoring the best temperature for growing dandelions too.
Because it is utterly irrelevant- just like your stuff about boats.

Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 29/10/2020 20:26:22
Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?

So is this a fight of gets the last words or what. You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made, because you have none. Is it so impossible to derfine a wave? And gravity bends those waves because they have to pass through a density, just as refraction through a lense? but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/10/2020 21:08:09
So is this a fight of gets the last words or what. You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made, because you have none.
The proof is real.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO
It's just that you keep ignoring it.
but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.
No
That's silly.
I'm a scientist, so I want answers.
Some of them are a bit odd, but they are answers.
They are obtained by looking at the universe- sometimes in rather strange ways.

The definitions of the theory are out there if you want to google them.
But,because you have a personal policy of not learning physics and/ or maths you won't understand them.
It's not that anyone is lying; it's that you won't listen.

Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 29/10/2020 21:47:48
wow, can't teach an old dog tricks that actually work instead of nonsense I gues. The old addage don't believe everything you reade is all I'm leaving this with.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 29/10/2020 22:04:08
Now your ignoring the visible truth that waves created by moving matter through a medium like a boat or airplane, don't need to be traveling in a circular path.

You are doing yourself a disservice by hanging on tooth and nail to that strawman argument.

By the way the gyroscope is the instrument to detect gravity, I don't know what business they have detecting them with telescopes at LIGO.

First of all, gravity and gravitational waves are two different things (in the same sense that electromagnetic fields and electromagnetic waves are two different things). Secondly, LIGO is not a telescope in the normal sense of the word. It detects the contraction and expansion of space caused by gravitational waves passing through it by using lasers and mirrors. If you had done the actual research in advance, you'd have known that.

You obviously aren't going to turn up any proof of what you're saying about when gravity are made

Mass always has gravity. The fact that you aren't floating off into space right now should be proof enough. But gravitational waves aren't the same thing as gravity...

Is it so impossible to derfine a wave?

No, but it is apparently easy for you to confuse one kind of wave with another.

And gravity bends those waves because they have to pass through a density

How can something "pass through a density"?

but you want the world to be this unanwerable place with thoeries that are impossible to define because there base definition is a lie.You are a liar sir.

I see no evidence of Bored Chemist having lied.

wow, can't teach an old dog tricks that actually work instead of nonsense I gues.

Your ideas don't work, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/10/2020 22:41:16
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 20:07:45
Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 11/11/2020 15:14:47
T
Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 20:07:45
Why do you bother to display your ignorance like this?
I can understand being too lazy to study physics.
But to then go on a science page and brag about how little you know, and yet how confident you are about stuff that is silly seems very strange.
Why do you do it?


The hot wind was blowing, but not at Bored chemist house, where he had mastered spinning in circles, which means no wind,
because it is the opposite of WHEN gravity waves are made, and as long as something is the opposite of another thing, there you will find Bored Chemist stating that he is right being opposite or something somehow, it doesn't matter, as he spins and spins to stop that hot air from flowing, and then it fills him to write his next response on the naked forum.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 11/11/2020 15:28:23
So he spun and he spun
in circles today
and made that
pesky wind go away
'Help Us!'
cried the birds in the trees
old man spin faster!
The wind has knocked down our tree!
So spinning in circles
he made his way outside
and just as he thought
the tree did abide
it stood back tall,
up straight! up right!
just as he and been pondering
all night
his new name was tornado
and a name given strong
because strength was a needed
for it won't be long
til the old man is needed
to stop the wind
from going bonk
on a tiny birdies head
just like his book said
Einstein and spinning
to stop the wind grinning
and so on
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 11/11/2020 15:44:41
False analogy: space is not water and does not behave like water.

Soon came along
the old man's friend Kryptid
to join in the spinning
and keep all the birds safe
in there tree's where they be sleeping
what should we save today?
Said to the old man by Kryptid
as they spun in the living room
all smoopid and limpid
save those birds I guess
when the wind gets a wicked
So old man and Kryptid
spun there way out the door
but there was no wind
so they went to the store
spinning and knocking
things off the shelf
they got into a slapping fight
then fell asleep on themselves
The End
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 11/11/2020 16:01:02
The hurricane

One day
while Bored chemist was spinning
the clouds grew a dark
and he thought
this where I be a winning
making that wind stop
from all my hard spinning
so he spun out the door
but the clouds where a blowing
'you can't stop me!'
he yelled at no one
'My spinning is fair,
and good, and better then all others
just like my theory I read
written by some other
so he stood in his yard
in his robe a spinning
when wouldn't you know it
along came some ballerina's
to join in the saving
NO! he yelled at them
'That's not how to spinning!'
do it correctly
like me
and punched one of the girls
for not learning
what he had read
about ballet and spinning
meanwhile the hurricane
was scarred to watch more
and said 'fine I'll stop a blowing,
as long as Bored chemist
stops a glowing
For he had put on a tutu
and was glowing and spinning
until he whapped his arm
and the tears began a flowing
right about this time
His friend Kryptid pulled up in the street
Spinning in his car
in his chair he made a neat
so it would spin as he was driving
to fix is broken thermostat
somehow the air from it... whatever
its all in their book
Einstein and spinning
to stop the wind
and win at winning


Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 11/11/2020 16:56:22
Stop spamming. If you cannot have a rational discussion, then you'd best just not participate.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/11/2020 17:40:02
It seems his "creative writing" skills are no better than his grasp of science.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 11/11/2020 18:28:11
twas a night that was windy
wind that haveth no name
for old bored chemist was on his computer
answering questions again
the wind was a swirling
coming from his house
'Help Bored Chemist'
cried a mouse
for the wind from Bored chemist
had sent the mouse a flying
only one thing to do he thought
to stop this mouses crying
So he stood up from his chair
with his arms spread wide
and put on his Eagles wings
from being a roadie he earned with pride
he flapped them and ran
in a great circle
To stop his own wind
from causing a schmerkel
He knew from his days
studying Einstein's book
that this was the way
chapter 7 page 22
'To stop the great wind
from reciting these verses
just flap eagle's wings
in a great circle
For waves from a spinning
]keep the wind from a grinning'
but the waves were his own
from answering forum posts
how could he stop them
to him they mean the most
so he said 'screw you mouse'
and let papers fly
mixing his new book
'why wind doesn't fly
a thorough look at how Relativity keeps birds on the ground'
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 11/11/2020 18:44:48
What do you plan to do if/when you grow up?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 11/11/2020 20:51:29
Stop it. This is your second warning.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/11/2020 12:37:27
Same people that believe in relativity are the same people that would never microwave a hot dog 40 years after microwaves were introduced.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/11/2020 13:04:09
Same people that believe in relativity are the same people that would never microwave a hot dog 40 years after microwaves were introduced.
I'm willing to bet that most large physics departments have
(1) a microwave oven for reheating food and
(2) A strong belief in relativity.

I also reckon they believed in relativity back in 2007- 40 years after the microwave oven was first available.

Why do you post ill-informed nonsense?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/11/2020 14:06:06
I'm willing to bet that most large physics departments have
(1) a microwave oven for reheating food and
(2) A strong belief in relativity.

Do you microwave your hot dogs sir?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 12/11/2020 17:09:46
Do you microwave your hot dogs sir?

I do, but it's irrelevant.

If you are not going to be serious, I presume that means you don't plan on contributing to a meaningful discussion. In that case, this thread has worn out its usefulness.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 20/11/2020 16:13:37
Do you microwave your hot dogs sir?

I do, but it's irrelevant.

If you are not going to be serious, I presume that means you don't plan on contributing to a meaningful discussion. In that case, this thread has worn out its usefulness.

I'm the only one posting anything serious in this post
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 20/11/2020 16:55:09
But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

So you argue there is a space medium for gravity waves and argue that there is no space medium for light according GR. You seem like quite the contradiction whenever you speak old man.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 20/11/2020 17:20:56
You seem like quite the contradiction whenever you speak old man.

It's not a contradiction. Light and gravitational waves are different things.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/11/2020 18:05:15
But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.

So you argue there is a space medium for gravity waves and argue that there is no space medium for light according GR. You seem like quite the contradiction whenever you speak old man.
What contradiction?
You need a physical medium for sound waves. You do not need a physical medium for light.
They are different things.
Gravity waves are different from both sound and from light.
The only "contradiction" is in your head...

Do you microwave your hot dogs sir?

I do, but it's irrelevant.

If you are not going to be serious, I presume that means you don't plan on contributing to a meaningful discussion. In that case, this thread has worn out its usefulness.

I'm the only one posting anything serious in this post
You were the only one who posted anything in that post...
So?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 20/11/2020 19:11:38
You seem like quite the contradiction whenever you speak old man.

It's not a contradiction. Light and gravitational waves are different things.

Not saying there the same things, although from what you've read and believe about them, they move at the speed of light, which is of course absurd. Meanwhile you danced right around my question of how a gravity wave perturbs a space medium, yet such a medium was declared null by GR.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/11/2020 19:34:09
Not saying there the same things,
True, but you did imply that you thought they should behave the same way- which is silly, given that they ae not the same thing.
they move at the speed of light, which is of course absurd.
Obviously, it's absurd that light should travel at the speed of light.

yet such a medium was declared null by GR.
No.
GR just said it doesn't affect light in the way people would have expected a "luminiferous ether" to do.
Again, you seem to think things should behave the same way, even though they are different things.
Spacetime in GR is not the same as Boyle's Luminiferous Ether.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 20/11/2020 20:52:51
they move at the speed of light, which is of course absurd.

Based on what reasoning?

Meanwhile you danced right around my question of how a gravity wave perturbs a space medium, yet such a medium was declared null by GR.

I didn't dance around it. Space is not aether. Aether was a medium that was proposed to be present in all of space. Space itself is what is doing the contracting and expanding for gravitational waves. What you have constructed is a straw-man.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 21/11/2020 05:36:52
Obviously, it's absurd that light should travel at the speed of light.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/500620/sound-frequencies-travel-at-the-same-speed

So according to dispersion different frequency's of sound will travel at slightly different speeds, the same being true about light and its frequency's. Would you mind showing on the spectrum of EMF lies your gravitational waves which are invisible and moving at light speed according to you?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 21/11/2020 07:03:30
So according to dispersion different frequency's of sound will travel at slightly different speeds, the same being true about light and its frequency's.

Light is not sound.

Would you mind showing on the spectrum of EMF lies your gravitational waves which are invisible and moving at light speed according to you?

Gravitational waves are not on the electromagnetic spectrum.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/11/2020 13:25:04
the spectrum of EMF
EMF doesn't have a spectrum.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 21/11/2020 17:30:02
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 21/11/2020 22:19:20
Quote from: boredchemist
But a rotating body is constantly accelerating and thus emits gravity waves.
In my understanding, a symmetrical rotating object (eg a black hole, or an ellipsoidal neutron star) does not radiate gravitational waves.

However, an asymmetrical rotating object (eg a cooling & shrinking neutron star, with a "mountain chain" perhaps 10mm high) would emit gravitational waves.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave#Spinning_neutron_stars

All of the gravitational wave events discovered to date have come from the merger of bodies with a mass greater than the Sun.
- These events produce very energetic gravitational waves that can be detected from a distance of over a billion light-years
- This is far more energetic than gravitational waves you would get from a spinning neutron star.
- On the other hand, a spinning neutron star continues for many years (until it suffers a "starquake"), so future gravitational wave observatories may be able to detect asymmetrical neutron stars within our own galaxy - perhaps separating them from the background noise by Fourier analysis?.

Quote from: trevorjohnson32
So according to dispersion different frequency's of sound will travel at slightly different speeds, the same being true about light and its frequency's.
What we call "The speed of light" is actually an abbreviation - it actually refers to "The speed of light in a vacuum, in my own laboratory".

But intergalactic space is not a vacuum - it has a low density of neutral Hydrogen atoms, and occasional protons, electrons and Helium atoms.

Fast Radio Bursts are very short pulses of electromagnetic energy that are emitted at many frequencies simultaneously - within 1 to 10ms.
But as they travel through the slightly ionized intergalactic medium, the low frequencies are delayed slightly more than the high frequencies: Dispersion.

So when FRBs are detected, it appears to be a short pulse at any given frequency, but that frequency sweeps downwards. The rate of sweep is dependent on the distance to the source.
See graph at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_radio_burst

Dispersion is also a problem for high-speed communication over optical fibers. This is compensated by having a short length of optical fiber with "negative" dispersion, to cancel the dispersion of the bulk of the fiber. But optical fiber is not a vacuum, either.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 22/11/2020 02:27:31
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 22/11/2020 02:35:33

Relevance?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/11/2020 10:49:47
Relevance?
He doesn't do "relevant".

He's trying to distract attention from the fact that he's hopelessly wrong about... almost everything he posts.
This site would do better without him.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 22/11/2020 16:16:45
I guess there's no joking around in a discussion about imaginairy waves that don't exist.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/11/2020 16:31:40
about imaginairy waves that don't exist.
Why do you ignore reality?
The detector "saw" them.
Are you saying all that metal and glass and whatever has an imagination?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 22/11/2020 17:25:35
I guess there's no joking around in a discussion about imaginairy waves that don't exist.

Are you proposing that the scientists at LIGO and VIRGO are involved in some conspiracy to falsify gravitational wave detections?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 22/11/2020 18:16:54
geez guys I didn't know any thing about GR or Michelson and Morley prior to about three years ago. You old Kranks aren't going to get anywhere debating with me. I have firmly put this stuff out of my belief system.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/11/2020 18:29:26
I didn't know any thing about GR or Michelson and Morley prior to about three years ago.
It looks like you still don't.
I have firmly put this stuff out of my belief system.
Not a good thing to do with facts.
And not a wise thing to announce on a science debate page.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 22/11/2020 22:44:03
You old Kranks aren't going to get anywhere debating with me.

It sounds like you are admitting that there is no point in this thread existing, as the rules of this discussion board require discussion. Proselytizing an idea without allowing criticism isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/11/2020 22:49:09
It sounds like you are admitting that there is no point in this thread existing,
It isn't specific to this thread.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/12/2020 18:09:45
I don't know why I can't write poetry up on the forum
You could if it was about science (rather than nonsense.).
As it is, the reason you can't write poetry here is the same reason you can't post gardening tips or pictures of flower arrangements.
It's not  what the site is for.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 10/12/2020 19:33:07
It's not a contradiction. Light and gravitational waves are different things.

You babbling horse! why don't you say something that isn't worthless! Love yourself a little too much? probably cause no one else can stand you. You aren't funny and probably a half wit. It's incredible how much you love yourself. Every opinion I read of yours (Yes they are opinions you blithering scum) on my posts or others stinks of an old man with no friends who loves himself to bits being a sarcastic pompous fool!
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 10/12/2020 21:10:23
It's not a contradiction. Light and gravitational waves are different things.

You babbling horse! why don't you say something that isn't worthless! Love yourself a little too much? probably cause no one else can stand you. You aren't funny and probably a half wit. It's incredible how much you love yourself. Every opinion I read of yours (Yes they are opinions you blithering scum) on my posts or others stinks of an old man with no friends who loves himself to bits being a sarcastic pompous fool!
You obviously have no self control and it is clear from this and other posts that you are trolling. You post nonsense and when called out put on a silly little boy act or insult members.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 10/12/2020 21:17:53
You obviously have no self control and it is clear from this and other posts that you are trolling. You post nonsense and when called out put on a silly little boy act or insult members.

Sorry, that was meant for Bored Chemist not Kryptid, in my rage I quoted the wrong person.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 10/12/2020 21:27:05
You obviously have no self control and it is clear from this and other posts that you are trolling. You post nonsense and when called out put on a silly little boy act or insult members.

Sorry, that was meant for Bored Chemist not Kryptid, in my rage I quoted the wrong person.
It does not matter who was intended for, you have no right to respond in that manner and it shows a complete lack of control on your part.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 10/12/2020 21:48:03
Sorry, that was meant for Bored Chemist not Kryptid, in my rage I quoted the wrong person.

Regardless of who that was aimed at, your tendency to insult people who don't agree with you is not behavior that we want on this forum. I'm going to speak to the other moderators about potential disciplinary action.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 17:34:46
This has been like arguing with children. I've learned nothing because all your points are goofy. and to to add icing to the cake you insult ME until i respond the way I did, then blame me for being angry?! Your the experts. Lets here a serious response to some of the points I've brought up. What is the medium for gravity waves for starters.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 12/12/2020 17:38:54
you insult ME

Who insulted you? Can you point out the insult in question? Please keep in mind that criticizing your ideas is not the same as insulting you.

What is the medium for gravity waves for starters.

Space-time.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 18:19:47
What is the medium for gravity waves for starters.

Space-time.

Space-time? I'm pretty sure you established that space-time is not a medium and has no properties. So are these waves similar to other waves in that they spread through the medium as a density?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:30:52
Your the experts.
You're.
You babbling horse! why don't you say something that isn't worthless! Love yourself a little too much? probably cause no one else can stand you. You aren't funny and probably a half wit. It's incredible how much you love yourself. Every opinion I read of yours (Yes they are opinions you blithering scum) on my posts or others stinks of an old man with no friends who loves himself to bits being a sarcastic pompous fool!

Do you realise that comes across like a three- year-old shouting "you are horrid and you smell of wee"?

Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 18:40:16
Your the experts.
You're.
You babbling horse! why don't you say something that isn't worthless! Love yourself a little too much? probably cause no one else can stand you. You aren't funny and probably a half wit. It's incredible how much you love yourself. Every opinion I read of yours (Yes they are opinions you blithering scum) on my posts or others stinks of an old man with no friends who loves himself to bits being a sarcastic pompous fool!

Do you realise that comes across like a three- year-old shouting "you are horrid and you smell of wee"?



HAHA I'm glad you read the comment I meant for you!

And again you deserve it for sitting around here like a vulture preying on young enthusiastic minds. You are more close minded then anyone I've ever known and it shows how pompous of a weasel you are!
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:46:02
close minded
https://grammarist.com/spelling/closed-minded/
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 18:48:09
The established beliefs won't win, it will just take time to overcome them. I apologize if my 'new' information I offer offends anyone's (except Bored Chemist) belief systems. It's been observed countless times that new information causes a stir up in people who already believe something different. So I apologize again. However I am not the 'dim' person that Bored Chemist claims I am. I just write about science from an original stance. I consider myself more of a science fiction writer who 'gets it right' more then a physicist. However I have studied and know quite a bit about Astronomy.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:48:25
I've learned nothing because all your points are goofy I refuse to learn the basics so I can't understand what I'm told..

FTFY
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:49:23
I apologize if my 'new' information ...
It's not "new information".
It's tired old arguments that have been kicked out before.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:50:00
I just write about science from an original stance.
Writing from a stance of ignoring reality is not science.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:52:12
However I am not the 'dim' person that Bored Chemist claims I am.
Then why do you post obvious nonsense?
Why would you say
I have firmly put this stuff out of my belief system.
about something that is known to be a fact?
Either you are too dim to realise it's a dim thing to do, or you are trolling.
Which is it?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 18:53:16
I consider myself more of a science fiction writer who 'gets it right'
You don't even get the grammar right, never mind the facts.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:05:54
Wow what a lot of Bored Chemist stink!

Who says you have to know writing in science style to be an original? I am aware of your physics jargon and style. I openly admit that I don't acknowledge or use it when I write. Just because you learned it at some point doesn't justify insulting me over YOUR beliefs. So why don't you leave mine alone!
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 19:17:08
Who says you have to know writing in science style to be an original?
Nobody.
You made that up

Just because you learned it at some point doesn't justify insulting me over YOUR beliefs.
My "belief" that you should spell things correctly or what?

I am aware of your physics jargon and style. I openly admit that I don't acknowledge or use it when I write.
The problem isn't terminology or style, the problem is accuracy.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 12/12/2020 19:24:27
Your the experts.
You're.
You babbling horse! why don't you say something that isn't worthless! Love yourself a little too much? probably cause no one else can stand you. You aren't funny and probably a half wit. It's incredible how much you love yourself. Every opinion I read of yours (Yes they are opinions you blithering scum) on my posts or others stinks of an old man with no friends who loves himself to bits being a sarcastic pompous fool!

Do you realise that comes across like a three- year-old shouting "you are horrid and you smell of wee"?



HAHA I'm glad you read the comment I meant for you!

And again you deserve it for sitting around here like a vulture preying on young enthusiastic minds. You are more close minded then anyone I've ever known and it shows how pompous of a weasel you are!
If you are so incapable of self control and resort to such childish language you really should not be on a science forum.I thi k it pretty obvious that you here to troll.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:29:31
Who says you have to know writing in science style to be an original?
Nobody.
You made that up

Just because you learned it at some point doesn't justify insulting me over YOUR beliefs.
My "belief" that you should spell things correctly or what?

I am aware of your physics jargon and style. I openly admit that I don't acknowledge or use it when I write.
The problem isn't terminology or style, the problem is accuracy.

What? I've been posting here for five years. Don't you even pretend to have courtesy for someone you've known that long? Well I'll be the adult instead of rambling on about spelling, You clearly are a person who doesn't like science fiction or creative writing which is all I'm doing. Sorry if it offends your belief system. Where do you even get this information about gravity waves anyways? Wikipedia? You know anyone is allowed to write up what they think and tell you its true don't you? Your facts and numbers could be completely made up as seems is the case about gravity waves. Just because you 'big name' drop and refutable reference post doesn't necessarily make it so! You should stop refusing the results I give you and begin applying some of the observations in physics to the idea of density's in the universe like I've been writing about. Come on be a good boy and explain something like a side note to my sci fi story I'm working on. It shouldn't be that hard. However you being so closed minded it probably literally is impossible for you. At least you could do is respect that I don't put up with your monkey sh1t fighting with your 'beliefs' be it grammar or other.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 12/12/2020 19:32:34
Who says you have to know writing in science style to be an original?
Nobody.
You made that up

Just because you learned it at some point doesn't justify insulting me over YOUR beliefs.
My "belief" that you should spell things correctly or what?

I am aware of your physics jargon and style. I openly admit that I don't acknowledge or use it when I write.
The problem isn't terminology or style, the problem is accuracy.

What? I've been posting here for five years. Don't you even pretend to have courtesy for someone you've known that long? Well I'll be the adult instead of rambling on about spelling, You clearly are a person who doesn't like science fiction or creative writing which is all I'm doing. Sorry if it offends your belief system. Where do you even get this information about gravity waves anyways? Wikipedia? You know anyone is allowed to write up what they think and tell you its true don't you? Your facts and numbers could be completely made up as seems is the case about gravity waves. Just because you 'big name' drop and refutable reference post doesn't necessarily make it so! You should stop refusing the results I give you and begin applying some of the observations in physics to the idea of density's in the universe like I've been writing about. Come on be a good boy and explain something like a side note to my sci fi story I'm working on. It shouldn't be that hard. However you being so closed minded it probably literally is impossible for you. At least you could do is respect that I don't put up with your monkey sh1t fighting with your 'beliefs' be it grammar or other.
If it science fiction it should be on a creative writing forum then.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:33:06
If you are so incapable of self control and resort to such childish language you really should not be on a science forum.I thi k it pretty obvious that you here to troll.

I'll consider it a reading error on your part that I started the monkey sh1t throwing you refer to. Maybe you should be restrained as it were as you tag along attitude is quiet upsetting to me and I think you have your head UYA!
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 12/12/2020 19:37:30
If you are so incapable of self control and resort to such childish language you really should not be on a science forum.I thi k it pretty obvious that you here to troll.

I'll consider it a reading error on your part that I started the monkey sh1t throwing you refer to. Maybe you should be restrained as it were as you tag along attitude is quiet upsetting to me and I think you have your head UYA!
But you keep on doing it even after being warned by the mods. At least try to insult people in an adult as opposed to adolescent manner.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 19:37:51
I'll consider it a reading error on your part that I started the monkey sh1t throwing you refer to.
I looked through the thread from the start.
Here was the first insult I found.
Well I'm going to have to ask you to step outside the box of pompous asses who believe in relativity

Was your account hacked, or was that you?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 12/12/2020 19:39:14
If you are so incapable of self control and resort to such childish language you really should not be on a science forum.I thi k it pretty obvious that you here to troll.

I'll consider it a reading error on your part that I started the monkey sh1t throwing you refer to. Maybe you should be restrained as it were as you tag along attitude is quiet upsetting to me and I think you have your head UYA!
Oh, and I am being quite restrained. If you find me pointing out that insulting members is both childish and unacceptable, perhaps the Internet is not the place for you..
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:39:39
If it science fiction it should be on a creative writing forum then.

When do you guys admit that this 'new' information I've been discussing for almost 5 years is not the problem? Do you think you are the only one's on the internet who argue with me? It would be a first in five years if you could ignore the direction every fish is swimming in and provide some obscure knowledge of observation that actually fits the density of the universe theory. Can't you guys see that this is different then the usual 'oh space-time is like a spongue' sort of writing? Again it would be a first if you overcome the traditional Big Name beliefs and actually considered what it is I'm getting at.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: The Spoon on 12/12/2020 19:43:29
If it science fiction it should be on a creative writing forum then.

When do you guys admit that this 'new' information I've been discussing for almost 5 years is not the problem? Do you think you are the only one's on the internet who argue with me? It would be a first in five years if you could ignore the direction every fish is swimming in and provide some obscure knowledge of observation that actually fits the density of the universe theory. Can't you guys see that this is different then the usual 'oh space-time is like a spongue' sort of writing? Again it would be a first if you overcome the traditional Big Name beliefs and actually considered what it is I'm getting at.
You the one who stated it was science fiction. Not very well written admittedly.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:44:52
Oh, and I am being quite restrained. If you find me pointing out that insulting members is both childish and unacceptable, perhaps the Internet is not the place for you..

Yeah great intimidate me more see where that gets you.

You know there are a few open minded people on the internet, not many and I've talked to thousands, who don't believe in hippocracy and this in your face attitude of I'm better then you or my beliefs are because I studied them. You guys would be better off studying old wives tails then the physics you've posted here. But again I'm sorry for disturbing the inertia of everyone swimming in the same direction if that's what you mean.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 19:53:40
You the one who stated it was science fiction. Not very well written admittedly.

Are you so objected to the notion that a science fiction story can have new information in it that proves true? I'd really like for just one person to overcome that fish analogy of all swimming in the same direction. believe me its not unique to any person or this site. It would personally amaze me to hear something that isn't mindless repetition of what you've heard. Like magnetism for example. I already threw it out there that a magnet is like a fan with push and draw. Is that too science fictiony? C'mon its easy to observe logic. Two north connects to south just as two fans pushing in the same direction would attach to each other. Now its obvious to me that you would argue with that using any method you want. But before you do just consider that it would be a first if you didn't. Something the whole world would see. Maybe just consider pushing against the mainstream a little bit and we can see if takes us anywhere. Probably won't as its just another drowning comment on an internet forum. But hey maybe someone will look back and say you had some balls!
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 20:03:45
When do you guys admit that this 'new' information I've been discussing for almost 5 years is not the problem?
I apologize if my 'new' information ...
It's not "new information".
It's tired old arguments that have been kicked out before.
fits the density of the universe theory.
It isn't a theory, precisely because the evidence contradicts it.
Again it would be a first if you overcome the traditional Big Name beliefs and actually considered what it is I'm getting at.
It would be a first if I spent my time considering, in any detail an idea which is known to be wrong because, for example glass and glycerine have essentially the same refractive index and that ethanol has a higher refractive index than water.
No consideration that I, or anyone else, give it will stop it being wrong.
Oh, and I am being quite restrained. If you find me pointing out that insulting members is both childish and unacceptable, perhaps the Internet is not the place for you..

Yeah great intimidate me more see where that gets you.

You know there are a few open minded people on the internet, not many and I've talked to thousands, who don't believe in hippocracy and this in your face attitude of I'm better then you or my beliefs are because I studied them. You guys would be better off studying old wives tails then the physics you've posted here. But again I'm sorry for disturbing the inertia of everyone swimming in the same direction if that's what you mean.
"then" <> "than".
Also if you don't think that study makes your understanding better then, what do you think it's for?
BTW, in what way has anyone here sought to intimidate you?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 20:16:55
It would be a first if I spent my time considering, in any detail an idea which is known to be wrong because, for example glass and glycerine have essentially the same refractive index and that ethanol has a higher refractive index than water.
No consideration that I, or anyone else, give it will stop it being wrong.

So write back on board with insulting my beliefs with your obscure refence. How do you know you aren't being lied to?

Anyways who knows why those different obscure references are supposedly counter evidence to refraction being caused by density of a material. As I learned it refracction is like a ball rolling froma flat surface onto a carpet(and yes the angle does matter). When the ball hits the more dense carpet it pushes outward or sideways more because it has to travel against the density of the carpet vs the flat floor. I observe that happening everytime I try the experiment. Do you have some inertia in your belief systems that should say otherwise? Please stop BS'ing me that your obscure example is the evidence contrary.

So anyways Bored Chemist is once again continue swimming with the mainstream 'knowledge' that can be found out there. Which is exactly the opposite of what I was saying would be noble of one of you. Yeesh.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 20:35:03
your obscure refence. How do you know you aren't being lied to?
It is not "obscure".
The problem is that you are ignorant of a well known fact.
So well known that there are a stack of videos about it on YT etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=glycerine+glass+refraction+demonstration&sxsrf=ALeKk02-WVnPjzTFHPX3cdRvdjDLHBaosQ:1607805208799&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjeldqSpcntAhVVilwKHQtMCbkQ_AUoA3oECBIQBQ&biw=1745&bih=852
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: trevorjohnson32 on 12/12/2020 20:55:27
your obscure refence. How do you know you aren't being lied to?
It is not "obscure".
The problem is that you are ignorant of a well known fact.
So well known that there are a stack of videos about it on YT etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=glycerine+glass+refraction+demonstration&sxsrf=ALeKk02-WVnPjzTFHPX3cdRvdjDLHBaosQ:1607805208799&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjeldqSpcntAhVVilwKHQtMCbkQ_AUoA3oECBIQBQ&biw=1745&bih=852

So for the most part density of a material is influential on its refraction except for the few counter examples you point out? Can you explain why these counter examples don't depend on density of the substance? In layman terms please?
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/12/2020 21:40:25
Can you explain why these counter examples don't depend on density of the substance? In layman terms please?
Because the refraction of light depends on how strongly the electrons are attached to the molecules and the density depends on how tightly packed, and how heavy the nuclei are.


So for the most part density of a material is influential on its refraction
Not really.

except for the few counter examples you point out?
You are deluding yourself here.
There are plenty of counter-examples.
There is a correlation of sorts between density and refractive index, but they are independent quantities.

Why has it taken you so long, and so many people explaining why you are wrong, before you accept reality?

Why are you so unwilling to accept that you were wrong, even though the evidence proved it?
Even now you are still hedging your bets with things like "
the few counter examples
and
the most part density of a material is influential on its refraction
Those are not really true.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Kryptid on 13/12/2020 01:41:16
I'm pretty sure you established that space-time is not a medium and has no properties.

Please quote me on when I ever stated this.

So are these waves similar to other waves in that they spread through the medium as a density?

What does "spread through the medium as a density" mean?

And again you deserve it for sitting around here like a vulture preying on young enthusiastic minds. You are more close minded then anyone I've ever known and it shows how pompous of a weasel you are!

There is a difference between being closed-minded and correcting people.

The established beliefs won't win, it will just take time to overcome them. I apologize if my 'new' information I offer offends anyone's (except Bored Chemist) belief systems.

Belief systems have no place in science. Models supported by observational evidence are where it's at.

I consider myself more of a science fiction writer who 'gets it right' more then a physicist.

How would you know that you've "gotten it right" when you haven't performed experiments to test your ideas?

So why don't you leave mine alone!

No scientific idea should be immune to criticism (assuming that your idea is scientific).

Your facts and numbers could be completely made up as seems is the case about gravity waves.

If you're going to propose that the discoveries by LIGO are VIRGO are part of some kind of conspiracy, then please provide the evidence for it.

When do you guys admit that this 'new' information I've been discussing for almost 5 years is not the problem?

You're right. The problem is your attitude. You are not open to criticism. When we try to correct your misconceptions, you act as though we are attacking you personally. Then you turn nasty. You need to learn better.

You know there are a few open minded people on the internet, not many and I've talked to thousands, who don't believe in hippocracy and this in your face attitude of I'm better then you or my beliefs are because I studied them.

Please point out how any of us have been either closed-minded or hypocritical.

How do you know you aren't being lied to?

Again, if you are going to promote conspiracy theories, please pony up the evidence for their existence.

As I learned it refracction is like a ball rolling froma flat surface onto a carpet(and yes the angle does matter). When the ball hits the more dense carpet it pushes outward or sideways more because it has to travel against the density of the carpet vs the flat floor. I observe that happening everytime I try the experiment. Do you have some inertia in your belief systems that should say otherwise? Please stop BS'ing me that your obscure example is the evidence contrary.

You need to stop thinking of analogies as absolute (like you have done when equating gravitational waves with water waves). All analogies have short-comings.

except for the few counter examples you point out?

There are a lot of counterexamples. Here are some (followed by comparative densities and indices of refraction):

Water vs. ethanol (1.00 vs 0.79 g/cc) (1.333 vs 1.36)
Corundum vs diamond vs moissanite (4.00 vs 3.52 vs. 3.22 g/cc) (1.77 vs. 2.42 vs. 2.65)
Helium vs. hydrogen (0.17 g/L vs 0.07 g/L) (1.000036 vs. 1.00132)
Benzene vs. acrylic (0.87 vs 1.18 g/cc) (1.50 vs. 1.49)
Fused silica vs. sodium chloride (2.20 vs. 2.17 g/cc) (1.46 vs. 1.54)
Silicon vs cubic zirconia (2.33 vs. 5.50 g/cc) (3.42 vs. 2.18)
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Galileo1564 on 22/12/2020 04:54:09
s

please explain how and why YOU THINK the boat analogy is wrong.
A moving planet will continue to move forever until acted on by an external force as per Newton's first law of motion. Yes, there will be a gravitational effect of the passing planet that will look like the wave of the boat. That is the same as if you move a charge the charge will attract something that it passes.

However, that is not electromagnetic radiation. You need to accelerate the charge to emit radiation, so the passing charge effect is different from electromagnetic radiation. The same is true with gravitational waves. It is not the same effect of a passing planet. You need accelerated masses to created gravitational waves, not just moving masses.
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 22/12/2020 08:19:53
Quote from: Galileo1564
You need to accelerate the charge to emit (electromagnetic) radiation.... It is not the same effect of a passing planet. You need accelerated masses to created gravitational waves, not just moving masses.
When a planet passes a star, the gravitational force between the planet and the star accelerates the planet
- The planet's straight-line path (in free space) is bent into an elliptical orbit around the star
- If the planet is traveling too fast (faster than the star's escape velocity), the planet's straight-line path will still be bent, into a parabolic or hyperbolic path.
- In all cases, this bending/acceleration of the planet's path is exactly what produces gravitational waves
- But the amount of gravitational waves from a planet is very low (it is around 200 Watts for the Earth/Sun system).
- The first-discovered merger of black holes led to a release of 3 solar masses in the form of gravitational waves - all in 100 milliseconds or so!
- The reason is distance and mass - the Earth is 150 million km from the center of the Sun, and has a mass much smaller than the Sun. The first detected gravitational wave event was due to black holes of around 36 and 29 solar masses, approaching within 10km or so...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitational_waves
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Galileo1564 on 22/12/2020 10:13:27

Quote from: Galileo1564
You need to accelerate the charge to emit (electromagnetic) radiation.... It is not the same effect of a passing planet. You need accelerated masses to created gravitational waves, not just moving masses.
When a planet passes a star, the gravitational force between the planet and the star accelerates the planet
- The planet's straight-line path (in free space) is bent into an elliptical orbit around the star
- If the planet is traveling too fast (faster than the star's escape velocity), the planet's straight-line path will still be bent, into a parabolic or hyperbolic path.
- In all cases, this bending/acceleration of the planet's path is exactly what produces gravitational waves
- But the amount of gravitational waves from a planet is very low (it is around 200 Watts for the Earth/Sun system).
- The first-discovered merger of black holes led to a release of 3 solar masses in the form of gravitational waves - all in 100 milliseconds or so!
- The reason is distance and mass - the Earth is 150 million km from the center of the Sun, and has a mass much smaller than the Sun. The first detected gravitational wave event was due to black holes of around 36 and 29 solar masses, approaching within 10km or so...

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitational_waves

Thank you for clarifying, and my apologies to the OP if I have given incorrect information. I had actually asked this question on another forum a long time ago and they never validated my inquiry regarding gravitational wave effect for passing planets, and I got the impression that "real" gravitational waves were only due to a derivative of a quadrupole moment, but I didn't understand what a quadrupole moment was (still don't so need to study that a bit).

From Wikipedia
"More technically, the second time derivative of the quadrupole moment (or the l-th time derivative of the l-th multipole moment) of an isolated system's stress–energy tensor must be non-zero in order for it to emit gravitational radiation. This is analogous to the changing dipole moment of charge or current that is necessary for the emission of electromagnetic radiation."
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: evan_au on 22/12/2020 10:52:36
Quote from: Galileo1564
I didn't understand what a quadrupole moment was
My primitive understanding is:
- If you accelerate a dipole (+ & -) electrical charge backwards and forwards at a 1Hz rate, it will radiate electromagnetic waves at 1 Hz. Because the + & - are distinct, it takes one whole cycle to get back to the original position.
- However, masses only attract (ie mass is only positive, as far as we know), so two masses of 1 solar mass are equivalent.
- If you accelerate two bodies of 1 Solar mass backwards and forwards at a 1Hz rate, it will radiate gravitational waves at 2 Hz. Because the masses are equivalent, it only takes half a cycle to get back to the original situation.
- There are twice as many polarity changes for a quadrupole compared to a dipole.

I'm afraid I can't follow the mathematical derivation here, either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrupole#Gravitational_quadrupole
Title: Re: Gravity Waves more GR Fantasy
Post by: Galileo1564 on 22/12/2020 11:34:26
Quote from: Galileo1564
I didn't understand what a quadrupole moment was
My primitive understanding is:
- If you accelerate a dipole (+ & -) electrical charge backwards and forwards at a 1Hz rate, it will radiate electromagnetic waves at 1 Hz. Because the + & - are distinct, it takes one whole cycle to get back to the original position.
- However, masses only attract (ie mass is only positive, as far as we know), so two masses of 1 solar mass are equivalent.
- If you accelerate two bodies of 1 Solar mass backwards and forwards at a 1Hz rate, it will radiate gravitational waves at 2 Hz. Because the masses are equivalent, it only takes half a cycle to get back to the original situation.
- There are twice as many polarity changes for a quadrupole compared to a dipole.

I'm afraid I can't follow the mathematical derivation here, either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrupole#Gravitational_quadrupole
Thank you! That actually clears up the quadrupole mystery for me.

Related question: Does this have anything to do with why a graviton, if it exists, would be "spin 2", or is that a separate issue?