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Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/09/2007 21:06:19

Title: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/09/2007 21:06:19
Please Help and Join Our Study to Show that Varicose Veins and Oedema will improve using Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) and do not Require Surgery.
To contribute your own observations to this important research you will need to become a member of the Nakedscientists forum.

Interview by Patrick Timpone on One Radio Network In Texas where Andrew explains how his discovery in plant and tree circulation led to applying it to our own circulation and question how we sleep and sit.
Using the Image link from a photobucket account to show pictures in your post:

Choose the code that has the [ img ][ /img ] boxes either side from photobucket in the drop down box, click on this link titled img code in photobucket highlite it and right click while on the image code / link and click copy. Go to your post and right click in the window that contains your text, click paste. Job done :)

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Web%20Page%20Pictures/Image16.gif)
6" or 15cms head end     3" or 7.5 cms middle   castors off the bottom
Why do varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed by sleeping on an inclined mattress affording a level but tilted surface with the head end 6 inches or fifteen cm's higher than the foot end?

How does physiology Literature account for this interesting observation?

You might be interested to learn that the causes of varicose veins are not understood and therefore the chance of anyone providing an answer to my question is pretty remote.

Why do veins become varicose?
The answer, in most cases, is that we don’t really know what causes varicose veins. There are two main theories.

Examination of Varicose Veins and Blow Outs or bulges.

Post 30th July 2008

Karen Provided us with before and after photographs from several days of IBT. She also provided us with stats showing a marked decrease in blood pressure which can be found here on her thread about congestive heart failure and insomnia.  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=7069.125

Alun
We now have Our predicted photographic proof to support the above statement and together with the testimonies of several more people who have experienced varicose vein shrinkage and significant Oedema reduction. And still no interest from the medical profession? A series of photographs have been posted in support of this study which show a slow progressive shrinking in varicose veins.
Penny
A photograph of Penny who has also had problems with a large varicose vein that no longer bulges.
Jude
A Photograph showing my wife’s varicose vein, which went flat in 1994 and has not presented any problems since.
Old Dragon
Photographs of Oedema and varicose veins from Old Dragon who has also provided us with statistics for blood pressure, heart rate, respiration rate etc showing again a reduction in blood pressure due to sleeping on an inclined bed. We have some compelling anecdotal evidence. But is it really anecdotal when a prediction is made based on previous pilot studies over many years and is then proven to be correct and fully repeatable? Or is the word anecdotal in this case used to validate ignorance and contempt for something that has the potential to save life and limb?

Old Biker who accidentally forgot to take blocks out from under his bed, used to keep the head board away from the wall while it was drying became interested in why he felt much better after sleeping on an incline & googled to find our study and posted his own experiences. At 68 years young he has also noticed his varicose veins are shrinking.
Squirrel, who I know personally has provided us with another important testimony stating that her vascular surgeon advised her that after 4 repeated surgeries on her varicose veins they would inevitably return and require more surgery. she has avoided further surgery for 5 years and I have seen her legs and they no longer present any varicose problems after tilting her bed.

Squirrel has discovered that IBT assists the nerves to rapidly recover from injury with botox injections, rendering the botox useless. This is a very important observation because it confirms many years of research into neurological conditions including multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s Disease, Cerebral Palsy,  Arachnoiditis and Spinal Cord Injury that IBT stimulates nerves to recover and regenerate.

From the onset of this study we are evidently on course to demonstrate that gravity is a beneficial driving force for circulation. We need many more people to join our study and provide us with vital photographic and written evidence. We are hoping for at least 50 people with varicose veins and / or oedema to become pioneers of this Free therapy.

Photographs can be uploaded to www.photobucket.com and then a link can be pasted to your photographs in this thread. Make a folder for your photographs where you intend to keep them because if you move them to another place in photobucket they will not be shown in the thread. Please also email me a copy at full resolution.

A simple and tidy way to modify a bed is to get a length of strong grey soil pipe from a builders merchant. Cut to correct lengths so Top of bed would be 7.5 inches middle of bed 3.25 inches and bottom of the bed 1.5 inches these fit over the castors of the bed and provide a better looking modification than the blocks. One length of pipe will do several beds and they are pretty cheap too, especially if you find one in the recycle centre that has not been used. The casters are then inserted into the pipe lengths.


Inclined Bed Therapy on Youtube:
Andrew K Fletcher

If you are of the opinion that simply tilting a bed will have little effect on human physiology, perhaps you might be interested in what happens to the body when the bed is tilted in the opposite direction to imitate the massive effect that micro gravity has on healthy astronauts during space flight.

Staying in a NASA Bed For 90 Days Would Fetch You $17,000

NASA is appealing for healthy people to sleep on a bed tilted head down for long three months and is offering $5000 per month. Why would NASA be paying so much money for people to stay in bed?.
Their Bed Rest project aims at studying the consequences of long-term micro gravity in humans by making you lay down on a slightly-tilted bed with head down and feet up. Does not sound a lot to ask for $5000 a month? Or does it?
Participants will have to live in a special research unit during the entire study period and would be cautiously fed with a controlled diet. Immediately following the initial 11-15-days, applicants will be subjected to prolonged stay of 90 days lying in bed with exceptional change of undergoing specific tests.
On daily basis, they will be awake for 16 hours and can take a sleep of 8 hours. As a pat of process, they will undergo countless tests to identify changes in their state of their bone, muscle, heart and circulatory system, and nervous system plus their nutritional condition and ability to fight against infections would be checked. Want to give it a try? To apply click here.
NASA Human Test Subject Facility (HTSF) http://www.bedreststudy.com/
 The Bed Rest Study web site is currently down for maintenance. We will be accepting new applicants in the near future
But you need to ask yourself why would NASA be offering so much money to sleep head down tilt for such a long time? I don’t mean ask about their reasons for advancing the space programme, but why would someone want to pay you all that money?

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/behindscenes/bed_rest_study.html

To Help with our study, you need to join Nakedscientists forum in order to post your observations and photographs.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 03/09/2007 22:06:04
Question for Doctors and Nurses: Please explain why varicose veins shrink after 4 weeks of inclined bed therapy and continue to improve further over the following months? Inclined bed therapy is sleeping on a level but tilted mattress sloping down from head to toe at a five degree angle, head being higher than feet. This is a prediction based on pilot study results so if you have varicose veins and oedema I suggest you read carefully through this thread as it evolves.

The literature you rely on cannot explain why sleeping head up rather than head down, or legs elevated is having such a profound and obvious beneficial effect.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: paul.fr on 03/09/2007 22:11:36
Andy
Whilst this is slightly off topic, those reading may find your reply of interest.

1. Does this question relate to studies that you have conducted, or research carried out?

2. When did "inclined bed therapy" first begin to be researched?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/09/2007 10:07:22
Hi Paul

Yes this relates to my own research into the way solutes change pressures inside the body as they are drawn through the vessels by gravity. The first to observe improvements in varicose veins was a nurse called Stephanie from Paignton, who reported improvements in her varicose veins after a 4-week period of IBT. Coincidence? I would agree, but simultaneously my wife’s varicose vein deflated and no longer ached and this happened 2 weeks earlier than Stephanie’s improvements. Followed by improvements in my mother’s varicose veins and my late father’s varicose veins improved also. And then Penny Meredith reported bulging varicose veins shrinking. And since then there have been many more reports of improvements in varicose veins, which flies in the face of accepted physiology erroneously suggesting that elevating the legs higher than the heart will improve unsightly veins. It may provide relief temporarily but it simply does not address the underlying cause of varicose veins and indeed makes use of the same gravity driven flow.

When solutes are dissolved in fluids the density of the fluids changes accordingly. When concentrations of solutes rise due predominantly to evaporation of solute free water in the breath and from the skin, the resulting denser fluid is shifted due to the influence of gravity taking the path of least resistance towards the ground. This downward flow is generally in the artery and exerts a positive pressure on the inside of the walls, and forces fluids down under a positive pressure, while at the same time generates a negative tension behind it causing a dragging effect so powerful that it provides a negative tension in the venous return more than capable of pulling fluids from the surrounding tissue back into the venous return and into the main circulation where it is then filtered and excreted in the urine as it should be. Evidence for this is density changes in urine during IBT, measuring urine output density of myself and my partner sharing the same IBT, flat bed rest and head down bed rest. The results were staggering showing IBT to produce urine density significantly higher than flat bed rest or head down bed rest or normal daily activity. But here is the crunch. Urine density dropped off to near water density when Head Down Bed rest was adopted. Proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that salts and other toxins arrive in the bladder because of the interaction of dissolved solutes and gravity.

I didn’t expect any replies to my post, because my own observations cast serious doubt on the validity of accepted and deeply rooted physiology. In fact I would have been surprised if someone had come up with an answer to the initial question.

My research began in 1993 when I was heavily involved in an irrigation project. During which the question arose as to how to address salt build up in land exposed to sustained high evaporation rates. Irrigated land under these conditions inevitably poisons the soil leaving behind a crust of salt. Except where trees are present, they live for many years under the same irrigation scheme yet somehow manage to maintain the equilibrium of salt verses water ratio. So the question as to what exactly these trees were doing with the salts arose leading me to investigate fluid transport in trees and plants, later applying the same paradigm to the way animals and humans function, leading on to testing the theory by avoiding a flat bed and using IBT to see what if anything changes, which took place in the early part of 1994. Our bed has remained tilted ever since and so has the bed of many friends, family and complete strangers who have realised that there might be something seriously wrong with sleeping on a flat totally unscientific bed!

Andrew   
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 23/09/2007 11:48:34
   Varicose veins shrink during Inclined Bed Therapy, usually within a 4 week period of avoiding a flat bed. No surgery, drugs or diet changes, it's a fact! Varicose veins are caused because the pressure inside the vein is increased. A vein is not strong enough to resist high positive pressures resulting from the heart and blood pressure. The arteries however do resist positive pressure effectively. So the question should be how does physiology today explain the absence of positive pressure inside a vein when the heart is believed to be the sole source of output in circulation? The heart is a pump after all and the circulatory system inside our body is linked to the pump. So it is easy to understand why a pump will inevitably inflate both the artery and the vein and therefore easy to understand how varicose veins occur. But the puzzle remains as to why varicose veins do not affect everyone in the same way?

Raising the legs higher than the heart can temporarily relieve varicose veins. The improvements using this method are very short term and the problem does not resolve using this method. Surgery is often used to repair damaged veins, it is often painful, and runs the constant risk of infection along with the possibility of venous collapse, where the repaired vein closes restricting circulation and resulting in further costly surgery.

Also when a person exercises by jogging or walking briskly it will inevitably increase the heart rate and therefore the output from the heart should be expected to increase the pressure in the artery and the vein, yet this does not happen, in fact the pressure in the vein is reduced and the pressure in the artery is increased respectively. This is well known hence the need to exercise following vein surgery.

1.   If the heart is solely responsible for pumping fluids why does a needle inserted into a vein not cause blood to spurt out as it would in an artery?
2.   What is causing the reduction in venous pressure during exercise?
3.   Why does I.B.T. cause the veins to visibly shrink in 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed?
4.   How does lymph circulation occur?
5.   What is driving the cerebrospinal fluid?
6.      During development, long before a heart emerges, circulation occurs. This is primary circulation. Even before the heart becomes the familiar pump and looks more like a loop of tubing, a pulsatile flow develops. What causes this pulsatile flow?

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 05/01/2008 17:31:34
http://www.vascularsociety.org.uk/Docs/Provision%20of%20Vascular%20Services.pdf
THE PROVISION OF
VASCULAR SERVICES 2004 Vascular Surgical Society of
Great Britain and Ireland
The provision of an effective vascular service is relatively expensive. Vascular units have high bed occupancies and some of the patients may need prolonged hospital stays, particularly in centres where rehabilitation and community services are not readily available to take over the care of amputees or elderly patients. The surgery is technically demanding and consumes a lot of theatre time with significant demands on ITU/HDU facilities.
Over 30% of the population will develop varicose veins, although recent guidelines from the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) have undoubtedly reduced referrals to the vascular service from primary care.
Despite this reduction, varicose vein surgery remains a significant demand on the vascular service for the 10% of the population who will develop skin changes as a result of chronic venous insufficiency and for those who have particularly troublesome symptoms.
Chronic venous ulcers occur in 1% - 2% of the population over the age of 60 years and consume up to 2% of total health spending, let alone the associated loss of economic productivity.

Peripheral arterial disease may progress to critical limb ischaemia, with constant and intractable pain preventing sleep, often with ulceration or gangrene of the extremity. These patients are at particular risk of losing their limb without treatment and a high proportion present as emergencies. Interventional treatment is essential to avoid amputation. Such treatment is both clinically valuable and cost-effective4. When loss of the limb becomes unavoidable, amputation and early post-operative rehabilitation is the responsibility of the
vascular surgeon.


Limb Fitting Service/Rehabilitation
Peripheral vascular disease is one of the major indications for lower limb amputation, which is usually performed by vascular surgeons. Patients need local access to a limb fitting service and although this need not necessarily be on the same site, there should be close collaboration between surgeons and prosthetists with a team approach to tailor the individual needs of each patient to their care. A specialist rehabilitation unit is a more appropriate environment than an acute surgical ward for amputees who no longer require active
medical treatment but have not yet reached the stage where they can manage at home.
 The Provision of Vascular Services 2004


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/varicose_veins/hospital.htm
Hospital Statistics for Varicose veins


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/varicose_veins/stats-country.htm

Statistics by Country for Varicose veins
Prevalance of Varicose veins:
45 per 1000 (NHIS95)
Prevalance Rate for Varicose veins:
approx 1 in 22 or 4.50% or 12.2 million people in USA



European Journal of Vascular and Endovascular Surgery 2000; 20: 386-9
http://www.gvg.org.uk/vvinfo.htm#causes
Recurrent varicose veins

Varicose veins can recur even after entirely satisfactoy surgical treatment although their reputation for doing so is often overstated. Reasons for the later re-appearance of varicose veins may include:
Inadequate initial operations can lead to the early recurrence of varicose veins. Dissection in the groin and behind the knee to disconnect superficial veins from the deep system, at a site of valvular incompetence, needs to be carried out with meticulous care. The anatomy is often quite variable but it is essential that all small communicating branches of the veins are identified, tied and divided completely otherwise these provide a route for rapid refilling of superficial veins.
Similarly, failure to appreciate that there is more than one separate site of valve leakage at the pre-operative assessment will lead to early failure of the operation if all significant sites of incompetence are not dealt with.
Regrowth of tiny vein branches (neovascularisation) is a somewhat contentious cause of recurrent varicose veins, the probable importance of which is only just beginning to be appreciated. Recent research, much of it carried out in Gloucestershire, has demonstrated conclusively that multiple tiny vein branches can grow and develop through scar tissue in a matter of months, providing a new connection between deep and superficial veins even after an entirely adequate initial disconnection operation. Recognition of this fact has led to a number of modifications of surgical technique aimed at reducing the incidence of the problem. These include:
      - wide resection and diathermy destruction of disconnected branches.
      - routine stripping of the long saphenous vein in the thigh to make communication
        with calf varicose veins more difficult if neovascularisation occurs in the groin.
      - barrier methods to make it more difficult for veins to rejoin, including sewing
        adjacent tissue over the stump of tied vein and covering the divided end of the
        vein with a patch of artificial material such as PTFE.


Guess no one here will admit to having varicose veins. So not much chance of getting anyone to test the inclined bed therapy and disprove or prove what I have stated here either. Which is a crying shame when we are supposed to be interested in science.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/04/2008 09:01:36
Thought we were all scientists here. Here we have a great opportunity to prove a very important point in human physiology.

Showing that pressure changes from positive to being low enough to draw the varicose vein back from bulging above the skin surface to being level with the skin surface by altering the tension in the blood inside the vein due to sleeping with the head end of the bed elevated by 6 to 8 inches instead of sleeping flat must be of interest to any physiologist, doctor, vascular surgeon, physiotherapist or indeed that health service in general. Yet this thread is not getting the responses I anticipated. After all, we currently elevate the legs, which is thought to relieve pressure. Yet inadequate, risky and costly surgery continues to be performed and often has to be repeated over and over again. Why? Because operating on a bulging vein does not address why the vein was bulging in the first place! Change the pressure inside the vein and you are addressing the problem at its source!

I demand that a study should be set up to test this. In fact I have been demanding that a study should test this to many High ranking Health Officials, politicians, surgeons, professors doctors and nurses since 1994 when this important discovery was observed for the first time on my wife’s varicose vein and the veins of 2 local nurses.

This is by no means the first time I have called for a controlled study into IBT and indeed this thread dated 25/06/2005 on this same forum calls out for that same illusive study. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2262 I am grateful to Doctor Chris who highlights some of the bureaucratic B.S. that stands in the way of research and progress today. And all the time people are losing limb and life when all that is required to save many of them is the realisation that gravity works with the circulation and not against it!

While trying to remain calm in the hope of someone who can allow this simple study to take place so that it is under the scrutiny of people who can validate or indeed disprove it --(which will not be the case!) I feel like I am going to explode with rage and anger and punch someone to a bloody pulp. But Calm it must be for now at least.

Google "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher"

http://embarrassingproblems.co.uk/varicose.htm
‘Varicose’ simply means swollen
Varicose veins are the price we pay for our upright posture; if we still walked on all fours, we probably wouldn’t have them
One person in five has varicose veins or is likely to get them (Misconception)
Varicose veins usually develop slowly over 10–20 years
Recent research has found that varicose veins are more common in men than in women
60 000 people in England have hospital treatment for varicose veins every year
Varicose veins are more common in Wales than anywhere else in the world

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: shrewbolt on 15/04/2008 10:04:48
Andrew, mind enlightening us on how an erection is driven by gravity? Or has that not come up yet?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/04/2008 12:41:02
Oddly enough, impotence has also been reported to have become less of a problem when horizontal bed-rest is avoided, even in diabetes type1 after many years of waking with no erection it has been resolved. However it is far more likely we will be able to conduct a study into varicosity than penile erection, so for now I would like to remain focused on the introduction of a varicose vein study.

However, I will add that simply releasing a denser fluid down an artery, lymph or vein could well induce sufficient pressure as to inflate flaccid veins. And can be shown using soft walled latex or silicone tubing, where one side of an inverted U tube inflates while the other side deflates simply by introducing salt solution at the upper end of the n tube
Andrew, mind enlightening us on how an erection is driven by gravity? Or has that not come up yet?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 15/04/2008 13:06:37
Quote
releasing a denser fluid down an artery

I'm assuming you mean in the direction that blood is already flowing in an artery? Introducing anything against the flow would be difficult.

While I appreciate that you have observed benefits of sleeping on an inclined bed, I'm not fully convinced by your proposed mechanism.  I haven't fully read it through yet, and I know that there are many threads where you explain it on here, so lets not go into that here.

One thing puzzles me though - why would we be physiologically adapted to sleeping off-horizontal?  It's a safe bet to assume we evolved from a species which slept in nests in trees, and therefore foetally.  Do you propose this was a trade off for bipedalism?

Oh, and Andrew, you need to calm down.  If you want to see the research done, you may need to do some of it yourself - demanding that other people carry out research will never work.  I suggest you try to find as many people as possible to try inclining their beds, and have their blood pressure (I assume, in your experience, inclining the bed effects blood pressure?) measured before and after a set period.

Ask them not to change their diet or level of activity during this time.  Anecdotal evidence will get you nowhere - if you can demonstrate a significant change in blood pressure (as one marker) with a significant number of people, and demonstrate that the pressure returns to prior levels after resuming horizontal bed rest, then you are far more likely to get someone to look into it.

It's also pretty important that you do not tell people what it is you're looking for - if someone can just dismiss any effect as placebo, they are less likely to look into it any further.  Tell your volunteers you're looking into something else - sleep patterns maybe?

Do not suggest you know why it happens.  Do not offer any explanation. Do not tell them your mechanism.  Just offer sound data that shows significant improvement.

If you can do that, someone will probably look into it.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 16/04/2008 09:51:57
Ben, introducing solutes even against the blood flow has been done by inducing complete reversal of the blood from the skin to the brain using exercise. Michel Cabanac, University Laval Canada using a doplar placed where the nose meets the eye. Cabanac Initially interpreted his results as the brain trying to cool itself and reversing the blood flow. Yet in Cabanac’s own words, there are no valves, so this cannot be the case. What I proposed to him was that the intense exercise regimen generated sufficient heat to greatly increase the evaporation from the scalp, eyes, face and neck and the resulting changes in density of the fluids beneath the skin surface altered the direction of the bloodflow, against the normal flow.

A new born after taking his / her) first breath releases salts and other chemicals down the main artery as evaporation inevitably changes the density of the fluids in the lungs for the first time.

salt-aerosol has been used experimentally in the lungs of animals.

salt-aerosol is used via nasal introduction of drugs
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 16/04/2008 10:13:27
Quote
introducing solutes even against the blood flow has been done by inducing complete reversal of the blood from the skin to the brain using exercise. Michel Cabanac, University Laval Canada using a doplar placed where the nose meets the eye. Cabanac Initially interpreted his results as the brain trying to cool itself and reversing the blood flow. Yet in Cabanac’s own words, there are no valves, so this cannot be the case.
That sounds interesting - could you send me a reference so I can give it a read?

My point was really about the differences in flow dynamics between arterial and venous blood - arterial blood is moving so quickly and at such high pressures that I would doubt solutes could move against it in any meaningful way.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/04/2008 10:12:08
M. Cabanac1   and H. Brinnel1
(1)    Laboratoire de Physiologie associé au C.N.R.S. Nℴ 180, Université Claude Bernard, C.H.U., Lyon-Sud, B. P. 12, F-69600 Oullins, France
Accepted: 12 April 1985   
Summary  The direction of the blood flowing in the emissary veins (vena emissaria mastoidea and v. e. partietalis) was recorded in human subjects during moderate hyperthermia and hypothermia. During hyperthermia the blood flowed rapidly from skin to brain. During hypothermia either no flow could be detected or the blood flowed slowly from brain to skin. On two fresh cadavers the calvaria was removed with the scalp adhering. Gentle massaging of the scalp produced abundant drops of blood on the inner surface of the bone each time the scalp was massaged, thus showing that cutaneous blood can flow inward through the bone. These results support the hypothesis of selective brain cooling in hyperthermic humans by offering a possible mechanism.
Key words  Venous blood flow - Temperature regulation - Emissary veins - Brain cooling
News Physiol Sci 1: 41-44, 1986;
1548-9213/86 $5.00
News in Physiological Sciences, Vol 1, 41-44, Copyright © 1986 by International Union of Physiological Sciences
Keeping a Cool Head
M Cabanac
The mammalian brain has poor tolerance to increased temperature. However, when body core temperature rises during exercise or heat stress, the temperature of the brain can remain at a lower level, somewhat independent of the rest of the body. In several mammals the cooling of the brain is related to anatomically well-defined countercurrent heat exchangers. Humans lack these distinct anatomic structures, but significant cooling of the brain can nevertheless occur. Such selective cooling of the brain may have important medical implicantions.

Dean Falk http://www.anthro.fsu.edu/people/faculty/falk/radpapweb.htm

1. Role of emissary veins

Whole-body cooling takes place when arterial blood is cooled through the effects of evaporation of sweat from the body’s surface, a process that also contributes to regulation of brain temperature via its arterial supply. Michel Cabanac and Heiner Brinnel proposed an additional mechanism for selectively cooling the brain under conditions of intense exercise that results in hyperthermia. Because experimental evidence revealed that blood flows out of the cranium through the mastoid, ophthalmic and parietal emissary veins in hypothermic subjects but into the braincase in hyperthermic subjects, Cabanac and Brinnel reasoned that venous blood that is cooled at the head’s surface through the effects of evaporation on dilated veins is selectively delivered into the braincase under, and only under, conditions of hyperthermia (oral temperature of 37.6oC + 0.18o).  The authors noted that innumerable, microscopic emissary veins exist in humans, and demonstrated (by massaging a cadaver’s skullcap) that blood is capable of flowing through this network from the outside of the skull to the diploic veins within the cranial bones and then to the inside of the braincase.

The three emissary veins that were used to record direction of blood flow are located at dispersed points of the network that supplies the entire skull: at the face (ophthalmic), behind the ear (mastoid), and at the top back part of the skull (parietal). (See Figure 1.) Cabanac and Brinnel concluded that when blood flows into the braincase in these three emissary veins, it also does so in the innumerable tiny veins that comprise the entire network. According to this hypothesis, venous blood cooled at the head’s surface under hyperthermic conditions flows into the braincase over a disperse network of tiny veins (the cranial radiator). This is a selective brain cooling mechanism that serves to keep brain temperature in check. Cabanac and Brinnel’s hypothesis became controversial among physiologists who claimed that existence of an anatomical network of cranial veins capable of delivering cooled blood into the braincase was speculative. This point will be returned to in Section III.     


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 19/04/2008 10:50:07
I'll give that a proper read soon.  But my point still stands that it's practically impossible to introduce solutes that will move against the flow in arteries.  I was only being pedantic that arteries were included in the list.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/04/2008 12:01:02
Ben, No it is not impossible to introduce a solute and cause the arterial blood flow to change direction, in fact it is highly probable that introducing solutes will slow down the arterial blood flow and cause circulatory collapse leading to respiratory failure followed by cardiac arrest. This can be observed in a simple tubular model showing two directional flow in the same tube, and has been observed many times by me and a few others by adding different coloured dyes to the solutes we can see for example a blue less dense fluid flowing up and a red more dense fluid flowing down, the turbulence caused by this effect shows how the arterial revered flow scenario is probable. The resulting back pressure generated by the falling solutes would pose considerable problems for the heart to overcome.

Also, using silicone or latex walled tubes we can show solutes inflating the wall of an inverted n tube and deflating the juxtapose solute free side showing clearly that solutes change the internal pressures of the model to a degree that is clearly visible with the naked eye
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 22/05/2008 20:47:59
This question is very basic. I have yet to receive one single reply as to why varicose veins shrink when the head of the bed is raised to +5 degree to the horizontal and flat bedrest is avoided for 4 weeks? If you are working in the Health Industry then you should want to know more about this and you should want to question why it is not mentioned in any literature.

If you don't have an answer then you should say "I don't have an answer" To ignore this question is not an option because I will continue to badger everyone until I get a statisfactory answer..

What happens when we sleep the opposite way round with our head down?


F. Louisy1   , C. Gaudin1, J. M. Oppert1   , A. Güell2 and C. Y. Guezennec1

(1)  C.E.R.M.A. = Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches de Médecine Aérospatiale, Base d'Essais en vol, F-91228 Brétigny-sur-Orge Cedex, France
(2)  Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, Toulouse, France
(3)  CNES-NASA = Centre National d'Etudes, Spatiales, National Aéronautics and Space Agency, France

Accepted: 18 April 1990 

Summary  Venous distensibility of the lower limbs was assessed in six healthy men who were submitted twice successively to 1 month of –6° head-down bedrest, with and without lower body negative pressure (LBNP) (LBNP subjects and control subjects, respectively). Venous capacity ( V v,max, in ml·100 ml–1) of the legs was determined by mercury strain gauge plethysmography with venous occlusion. Plethysmographic measurements were made on each subject before (Dc), during (D6 and D20) and after (5th day of recovery, D+5) bedrest. During bedrest, LBNP was applied daily, several times a day to the subjects submitted to this procedure. Results showed a gradual increase in V v,max (ml·100 ml–1) throughout the bedrest, both in the control group [ V v,max = 2.11 SD 0.54 at Dc, 2.69 SD 0.29 at D6, 4.39 SD 2.08 at D20, 2.39 SD 0.69 at D+5, P<0.001 (ANOVA)] and in the LBNP group [ V v,max = 2.07 SD 0.71 at Dc, 2.85 SD 1.19 at D6, 3.75 SD 1.74 at D20, 2.43 SD 0.94 at D+5, P<0.001 (ANOVA)], without significant LBNP effect. These increases were of the same order as those encountered during spaceflight. It is concluded that –6° head-down bedrest is a good model to simulate the haemodynamic changes induced by exposure to weightlessness and that LBNP did not seem to be a good technique to counteract the adverse effects of weightlessness on the capacitance vessels of the lower limbs. This latter conclusion raises the question of the role and magnitude of leg venous capacitance in venous return and cardiac regulation.
Key words  Vein haemodynamics - Bedrest - Lower body negative pressure - Venous return

This study was part of a joint CNES — NASA project designed to evaluate the efficiency of periodic lower body negative pressure exposures to prevent microgravity effects on certain physiological parameters (orthostatic tolerance, work capacity, muscle changes, etc....;) in order to prepare the future manned space missions Hermes and Colombus.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: paul.fr on 23/05/2008 09:29:56
Andrew, i may have asked this before...
But, how did you arrive at the 6 inches or 5 degree angle? Why not 8 , or 3 degrees?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 24/05/2008 09:49:30
Going higher than 6 degrees means your comfort is compromised as you move down the bed. So there is a trade off from not sliding down the bed.

Originally I was trying to find a way to determine the optimum angle for circulation according to the way solutes are moved when suspended or dissolved in liquid.

As I was experimenting with fluids in clear plastic tubes, and observing how solutes rotate fluids in a closed loop of tubing, the downward flowing solute added side suspended vertically, representing the phloem in trees and the arteries in the human body, while the upward flowing less dense solute free side representing the upward flowing xylem in trees and venous return in the human body.

So logically, to stretch this closed loop of water filled tubing from one end of the bed to the other and observing how solutes alter the steady state of fluids within to a powerful flow and return circulation when the bed is raised to 5 degrees. And to see a circulation where the solutes flow down one side of the loop of tubing and cause clean water to flow over the top of the downward flowing solute giving rise to a two directional flow with no overall rotation of the complete loop of tubing when raised lower than 4 degrees. Adding food colouring to solutes gives a clear visual picture of the flow and turbulence caused by the solutes as they move allows one to easily determine how the circulation is flowing.

The proof that the angle was correct came from several people who had experiences some pretty amazing results from varicose veins going flat or near flat within 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed. This was the Eureka moment for me. It told me that solutes do alter the flow of fluids through the human body and that the pressure than had been causing the veins to bulge had now changed to a greatly reduced pressure pulling the veins in. And this can be the only answer as to why lowering the legs as opposed to raising them addresses oedema in the lower limbs by changing the direction of the flow back through the veins and into the main circulation where it is excreted in the urine.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/05/2008 11:11:34
Accept the challenge and go find a single explanation anywhere that addresses THE FACT that varicose veins are observed with the naked eye to substantially reduce in size when flat bed-rest is avoided by raising the head end of the bed 15 cm's higher than the foot end. This is not rocket science and anyone in their own home can repeat this, yet it is nowhere to be found in the literature. WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS THE CASE? Why is this not mentioned in Medical School? Why is it not mentioned in nursing and why does your doctor and surgeon continue to offer surgical procedures that do not address the reason why the veins are bulging in the first place?

Could Inclined Bed Therapy prevent many more circulation related medical problems and even reverse many of them preventing the unnecessary amputations and loss of life through gangrene and infections that we see in our hospitals in the year 2008?

Could tilting the bed prevent urinary tract infections and help to resolve blood pressure problems?

Are you going to ignore this post?

Andrew K Fletcher

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/05/2008 19:43:59
"Why is this not mentioned in Medical School? Why is it not mentioned in nursing and why does your doctor and surgeon continue to offer surgical procedures that do not address the reason why the veins are bulging in the first place?"
IS it in the mainstream medical literature? If not then you can hardly blame them for not knowing about it.
Is there a proper double blind study?
If not then they might get accused of "quackery", which, together with the threat of being sued might put a lot of them off mentioning it.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/05/2008 10:37:21
Getting sued for tilting a bed? Come on.... The medical profession tilt beds all the time! Maybe not correctly but they tilt them and don't get sued! So should they then be accused of quackery?

I have stated a fact and have been stating it since 1995. I have met with vascular surgeons, professors at Exeter University and Derriford Hospital for the purpose of setting up a controlled study to save the NHS countless £millions. Yet I have failed miserably to locate someone who is prepared to tilt beds for 4 weeks and measure the results to either disprove or prove what I have found to be true!

Just because it is not in the literature does not automatically warrant the label of quackery! It does however warrant further investigation and when this is proved WHICH IT WILL UNDOUBTEDLY WILL BE! There will need to be some serious revision of the current physiology literature! And that my friend is a FACT!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/05/2008 13:08:14
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/P3260004.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/P3260005.jpg)

These are photographs of my wife's leg taken a few minutes ago and uploaded so that you can all see the marks where her vein once prominently bulged out yet now lays flat and is hardly visible. Jude was examined by a friend who is a doctor. She said that this was never a varicose vein. Believe me it used to bulge like a small egg and became very painful and unsightly, particularly when she walked up hills.

She added I had forgotten all about that until you just mentioned it. I can't even see it myself anymore.

Her vein went flat after only 4 weeks of IBT and has never troubled her since! That was over 14 years ago!

I Need your Help to set up a study. I can't do this alone. Believe me I have tried but without cooperation from either a hospital, a nursing home, medical school, a sleep study centre, a charity, a surgeon or even a doctor and his or her patients, it will mean that many people will continue to have surgery and will continue to put their lives at risk of infection and circulatory failure and more to the point repeated and totally unnecessary operations.

Inclined Bed Therapy costs nothing!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/05/2008 13:27:07
From an earlier attmpt to move this forward.

Andrew K Fletcher

Posts: 1150
United Kingdom

MessageID: 18045
25/06/2005 08:53:08 »       

I would like to conduct a very simple study with varicose veins, oedema and leg ulcer, and would appreciate some help and guidance in achieving this.

Peter Lewis, a vascular surgeon from Torbay Hospital, has already tested the intervention and reported successful results. Professor Edzard Urnst, Exeter Hospital, and My own G.P. have expressed an interest in this exciting intervention.

So, I guess the question is, are there any doctors, surgeons, nurses who would be interested in lending a hand to test a simple intervention, which has been shown to be highly efficient in reducing / resolving all of these conditions in a pilot study?

Given that Nursing staffs suffer with varicosity, it could prove very rewarding for all concerned.

I look forward to your replies with interest

Respectfully yours

Andrew K Fletcher

Tel 01803 524117

chris
Hero Member

The Naked Scientist

MessageID: 18046
28/06/2005 09:27:19 »   

Andrew

in this day and age of complete intellectual destitution and the perception that all doctors are evil and incapable of treating their patients with an ounce of respect, before you go near anyone with a feasibility study you'll need to have filled in a 56-page long COREC ethics form.

And then wait ages whilst a bunch of loony-lefty control freaks decide that they want 500 pages more information, and evnetually you might get permission to do something.

This bull**** is paralysing research in this country now. The days of being able to test a good idea on a few anonymous samples, to see whether it justifies a grant application, are gone.

I'm currently wading through all this rubbish. I spent about a week on the grant application, tops, and then then last week filling in a forum twice the length, to get ethical approval to study DNA extracted from a whole bunch of anonymous breast cancers.

The very people that this lunacy is designed to protect - the public - are going to become victims because the discoveries that would have been made are going to take far longer to uncover, so the human health benefits will be lost for many.

Chris
 
Andrew K Fletcher
MessageID: 18536
18/07/2005 07:50:08 »       

Almost missed your post Chris.

Have already approached the Torbay Ethical Committee regarding ethical approval.

Their reply was, they did not believe ethical approval was required for this particular “Proposed Study” as the inclined bed is used in hospitals to help with Reflux on incubators and adult beds, and is already therefore approved.

Because no drugs are involved and the principle is obvious and has been tested over many years to be safe in its short term use, I can see no obstacle in our way, other than trying to obtain funding, albeit comparatively miniscule funding.
The problem is that drug companies hold the purse strings on 99% of trial/study funding, and have little interest in funding non-drug related research.

Sorry I missed your post Chris

Andrew

chris
Hero Member
So what do you need funding for ?

Chris
 
Andrew K Fletcher
Hero Member

MessageID: 18573
18/07/2005 21:02:48 »       

Chris, if the results from this proposed study are from a self funded study and do not involve the medical community in any way, the results will be ignored as you well know, and as I have already observed.

Funding would be required to pay for any professional people who would like to get involved. I myself would be glad to work for free in order to prove the efficacy of the inclined bed therapy as a means to provide a long term care environment for patients with oedema, varicose veins, leg ulcers and thromboembolisms.

Unless you know of professional people that would like to help in the study without charging for their services, which I think would be unfair, given the need to monitor the people taking part.

Any ideas on the best way forward would be greatly appreciated.

Andrew



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chris

So what do you need funding for ?

Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 07/06/2008 11:46:04
 Too much money involved in surgery to do a study with an alternative that does not cost anything and involves no risks? Not a single comment on the photograph provided?

Anyone here got varicose veins and is willing to give this a try and hopefully provide before and after photographs for us all to see?

Enough anecdotal evidence provides a compelling argument for a full trial!

So why is nothing being done with this simple intervention when surgery is costing the NHS a fortune?

Inclined bed therapy works! Inclined bed therapy is free! Varicose veins shrink when the body is tilted correctly!

This does not fit with the literature so the literature is obsolete! and that is a fact!

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/270000/images/_272533_vein300.jpg)
The NHS could save millions of pounds by rationing unnecessary varicose vein operations, says new research.
An Edinburgh study shows that there is no reliable link between pains and aches in the legs and varicose veins.

And much surgery may have little beneficial health effect.

The Edinburgh University researchers say many people complain of pains and aches, believing this will help them get surgery when their main reason for wanting it is cosmetic.

More than 50,000 varicose vein operations are carried out in England and Wales every year at a cost of between £400m and £600m.

Varicose veins have been linked to a number of symptoms, including swelling, itchy legs, cramps and heavy limbs.

The presence of one or more of the symptoms is an important factor in whether doctors will suggest surgery.

But the researchers say little work has been done on the link between symptoms of vein disorders and disease.

Aches and pains

They studied 1,566 people aged 18 to 64. They found that women were much more likely than men to complain of aches and pains in their legs although men were more likely to have varicose veins.

Women most commonly complained of aching in their legs, while men complained of cramps.

In men, only itching was significantly linked to varicose veins while in women symptoms of stress, heavy limbs, aching and itching all indicated varicose vein problems.

The researchers found, however, that the symptoms were very common in people who did not have varicose veins and that they increased with age.

Writing in the British Medical Journal, they say: "Although tens of thousands of varicose vein operations are performed in the United Kingdom each year, the scientific basis for this activity is lacking."

They say there is little evidence to show a link between the symptoms and varicose veins and that operating on varicose veins improves the symptoms.

"It is therefore unsurprising that funding bodies in the United Kingdom are becoming increasingly reluctant to pay for the surgical treatment of venous disease," they write.

They suggest that surgery should be targeted at those most likely to benefit from it.

This can be discovered, they say, by taking a careful clinical history and examination of the patient.

Varicose veins are caused by a weakness in the walls of veins which caused the veins to swell.

The condition is usually inherited and is most prevalent in Europe and North America.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/272533.stm

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/06/2008 20:15:06
Andrew, do you realise that anyone from whom you might seek funding to look at this will probably put your name in a search engine? When they come up with stuff like "First of all. You are not working against gravity when you pick up the book on earth." they are just going to throw your aplication in the bin.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 14/06/2008 08:14:37
Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 14/06/2008 09:23:07
Karen thank you for this post. And thank you for trusting me enough to try Inclined Bed Therapy for yourself.

What you have just stated poses no problem to my own theory on the way circulation works with gravity. However it does pose some serious problems for the current literature that need to be addressed asap. Your own observations are as we know merely anecdotal evidence, even though we know you are giving a true account of what you witnessed. Particularly with the re-emerging veins on sleeping horizontal again. Add to this the fact that you have never given anyone a reason on this forum to doubt your integrity and you are respected by everyone here, your post may not get ignored quite as much as mine do.

The oedema relief conflicts hugely with current physiology because according to it your legs should have swollen rather than the observed reduction you witnessed. Now if you think about what you have written the answer as to whether it was IBT or diuretics lies with your observations while sleeping flat. So did your swelling begin to gradually return along with the return of the varicose veins?

1.   You observed a reduction in pressure inside the varicose veins. So let us assume that the entire venous return has now a modified pressure inside the veins so that it has reduced significantly compared to the surrounding tissue pressure, which as you know makes the skin a tight as a drum when it is swollen.
2.   Oedema happens because the pressure inside the veins is higher than the surrounding tissue so fluid moves from the veins into the surrounding tissue causing the familiar swelling.
3.   When your varicose veins shrunk it was because the pressure that was pushing them out had reversed to a pressure pulling them in. This would inevitably reverse also the flow of tissue fluids back into the veins and into the main circulation where the salts would be excreted in the urine after filtration.
So over several months the density of your blood and more importantly the density of the tissue fluids would gradually return to normal.


Nevertheless we still need to conduct a controlled study in order to confirm what you and others have witnessed is not just a mere coincidence but something that tells us a lot about the way solutes change pressures inside the vascular and arterial network that circulates.

Now we need more people who will test this so rather than have an operation why no try this first and report your findings to us on this thread?

Andrew K Fletcher

Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 14/06/2008 22:59:27
I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edma back in my limbe again with the return of the bed and my recentposition in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occassional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... justy the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a strtched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but  I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

 When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor  when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 14/06/2008 23:48:40
Guess no one here will admit to having varicose veins. So not much chance of getting anyone to test the inclined bed therapy and disprove or prove what I have stated here either. Which is a crying shame when we are supposed to be interested in science.

If it's of any use to you, I have varicose veins and don't mind admitting it. :) (Not just in my legs, either. ;) ) I also have a history of phlebitis, too. (Which some seem to think should be 'fleabit-us', as I've a couple of dogs who like to share sleeping arrangements with me. Lol)

You'd perhaps need to take a look at my thread at http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=15112.0 before deciding if I can be of use to you, and accept that I don't sleep in a bed but on a sofa with my back supported against the firm back of that, whilst various other bits get draped over cushions to remove pressure from pinching nerves in the spine. However, I don't think it would cause me too much of a problem to raise the head end of the sofa and give it a try... as long as my son does the raising and not me. Lol
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: grumpy old mare on 15/06/2008 10:52:08
Andrew, do you have a simpler write-up of the whole IBT-thing for the "non-scientist" simpler minds like mine?  [;)]
Reading this about oedema - a friend of mine has that in both legs and maybe she'd be willing to try if I can give her a simpler explanation and instruction?

(I really don't have varicose veins (yet?) - although I'm thinking of trying IBT for the old spine)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/06/2008 13:07:48
Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/06/2008 13:49:46
Quote
I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edema back in my limbs again with the return of the bed and my recent position in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occasional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... just the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a stretched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but  I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

 When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor  when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!


Thank you Karen for sharing your experience when you went back to your normal postural routines. Very interesting.

This again is a very important post because it shows that oedema had not only reduced but that since you have reverted back from IBT you are seeing an increase in oedema again and this shows that is was not the diuretics in this case that were making a difference because presumably you still take them?

The restless legs syndrome or Ekbom’s Syndrome has been reported by many to have completely resolved using IBT, only to return again when IBT is abandoned. My wife’s mum had this problem and was the first to report improvements when she came to Devon on Holiday and I tilted the bed in the caravan for her.

Many people who have used the inclined bed method fail to notice niggling pains and aches that vanish. This is because people seldom complain about feeling better. So it takes a period of 2-4 weeks of reverting back in order to realise how much benefit you were getting in the first place.

The most impressive case to date is a girl aged 12 with cerebral palsy, who is a young woman now became able to walk for the first time after around 8 months of IBT. I would love to be able to convince a hospital to conduct a study into CP using IBT, but alas I cannot find a method of moving this forward.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 15/06/2008 14:11:24
I am still on the diuretics...

I hope you do find away and that lots of people benefit.. Test test test! Good luck!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 24/06/2008 10:43:31
http://www.farmfoods.co.uk/ the best source of Asparagus at 0.89p
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 24/06/2008 11:02:48
Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

 

Thanks for this and the Farmfoods link, Andrew. Have PM'd you information relating to my current situation with the varicose veins/oedema/IBS and that all seem interlinked in an ongoing cycle of medication related chaos! Feel free to quote anything you might wish from that.

Oh, believe me, 'Old Dragon' is very much an earned ID name! (Although friends rarely feel the flaming tongue of the dragon licking their lugs, it can happen! [;)] )

I'll refrain from commenting on Jutta's 'Grumpy Old Mare' ID, but can empathise should she feel grumpy when her back kicks off and she feels like sinking her teeth into certain people that lead with the chin! [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 24/06/2008 20:44:30
All I need to get now are the blocks and someone to take the photos, then I'll be ready, but won't have much chance tomorrow as back in hospital for the day for a bone scan. Radioactive dye injected am, then the scan in the afternoon.

Got some fresh asparagus and ordered a case of tinned from the little local shop. Got the hydrometre, nettle tea, batteries - which someone with working fingers is going to have to fit into the scale for me! That after they have retrieved one from an obscure corner of the bathroon, 'cos I dropped it.  [::)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/06/2008 09:49:54
Lidl do asparagus in a jar which from memory is inexpensive. Fresh is amazing, frozen is pretty amazing also. Tinned and jarred has everything in it you need but lacks the must have more appeal.

Test urine with hydrometer before asparagus as this amazing vegetable will definitely change your urine and obscure any results:)

I have observed tar like urine produced while my Father was in hospital and we were advised that his kidneys had irretrievably broken down begin to produce clear urine several hours after his bed was tilted against the wishes of the doctors and nurses J

His legs were so swollen his pyjamas had been cut right up the legs which were so heavy with oedema I had trouble lifting them let alone dad. The nurses and doctors watched in amazement as all of the swelling vanished as quick as it had developed and all we did was tilted his bed. You would think that this would have stimulated some interest, yet as soon as my back was turned down came his bed and back in a comatose state he went. Eventually I stayed at his side to prevent these idiots from putting his bed down. 4 times I got dad out of a comatose state by tilting his bed. Each time it was induced by putting him horizontal and each time we had the bad news I am afraid message and rushed back to the hospital to find his bed had once again been put flat. Stupidity is too kind a word when the evidence is so blatantly obvious for keeping him tilted.  Dad was given metformin, a drug given to people with type 2 diabetes, despite my Father never having had diabetes and our family being eventually told that he was given this dangerous drug as a preventative measure just in case he ever developed diabetes?  I have not figured this logic out yet either.

Must stay focused on veins and oedema sorry about getting sidetracked.

Hopefully we should soon see some reports of shrinking veins and oedema. And we have already had it confirmed by Karen’s own experiences with IBT that both veins and oedema improved.

We do need around fifty people with varicose veins to test this in order to provide us with some statistics and photographic evidence. If we can show that veins do reduce by tilting the bed to a five degree head up tilt it will pose some serious problems for current physiology to deal with and if oedema goes down as predicted it will and has done for Karen we will have presented some serious problems for the current paradigm on circulation.

Of course this will still be considered as anecdotal evidence that will be requiring a controlled study or a double blind cross over study but at least we will have put the pilot study in place for this to happen. And more to the point will have shown others that there is no reason to risk dangerous ineffective surgical procedures when a couple of blocks under the bed can address the problem with oedema and varicose veins.

Perhaps then we may also be able to address why so many amputations are still being performed due to circulation failure. Perhaps hospitals may then begin to question how a totally untested flat bed model has been put in place to treat people with often life threatening circulation problems? In fact a flat bed has been shown to produce many serious health problems and has been used by NASA and the former Soviet Space programme to induce many of the harmful effects that affect astronauts in space travel. 


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 26/06/2008 08:01:47
I thought perhaps to turn the tinned asparagus into soup or add it to a chicken and rice dish I make to give some variety, but still be consuming it daily. Also stand-by supplies for when it's out of season or my freezer is full.

Aiming to head for the builder's merchants today to see if they can supply a suitable lump or length of wood to raise the sofa.

Not slept again since the few hours I got soaking in the bath yesterday morning and prior to the body scan. Between the injection of the radioisotope and the scan, I was asked to drink plenty and had some strong coffee, as I felt I'd likely nod off somewhere and fail to make it back to the radiology department on time otherwise. Also tried some mentally stimulating things - after another night without sleep, and in hindsight, I likely overdid both the coffee and brain stimulation. [:D]

I wonder if IBT will help to normalise my sleep patterns and improve the insomnia problems? I know that has to be taking its toll on my body.

Tasks for today:
1. Get the veins photographed.
2. Acquire some means of lifting the bed, as my son's visiting in the evening after work, so can do the heavy lift bit.

I really need now to get back into as normal a routine as possible work-wise, and so that I can both catch up and keep on top of everything as far as possible once the chemo cycles start. Yesterday morning I had to resort to taking 15mg of codeine phosphate to address the IBS sufficiently to attend the hospital appointment without discomfort and to try and slow my gut action a bit, as much as anything because the frequency of bowel movements have aggravated the haemorrhoids! Bleeding piles are the last thing I want, and especially as I've had to increase the amount of aspirin I'm taking at present to tackle inflammation in my back. There is obviously a fair bit of activity with bone breaking down and/or regenerating, but when I asked to see a copy of the images that had been printed onto a sheet of A4 paper, and out of curiosity, my request was refused. I was told the results would be given to me by my cancer consultant. Odd, as I'd not asked for the results, just to see the printed sheet, as I was viewing the reverse side of that at the time, so had little more than an outline and areas where the ink density was showing up well through the paper to identify some hot spots. Mmmmmmmm! It came as no surprise then that they wanted to take some ordinary x-rays of my lumbar spine; more so that they didn't have any on record in my file, but I was surprised that they weren't going to x-ray the thoracic region due to the recent flare there and because they already had one from Feb 2006.

The radiologist was more willing to allow me to view those lumbar spine x-rays. Even to discuss things evident there, and that were plain to see. She looked a little taken aback when I mentioned the degenerative evidence was hardly surprising after the SI joint had been locked up in the wrong position for 12 years... Could that be an omission from my notes, I wonder? I bet they mention poor posture as the cause to me at some point when giving me the results. [;)]

Whatever, it all does have bearing on varicose veins, because the whole package is interlinked with medication and these other conditions. Having not been to bed yet again, or even been able to lie down in comfort due to the signs that the x-ray positions I had to assume have triggered little flares that could kick off the muscle spasms again (please, God, no!) the oedema in my legs has also increased, and my calves especailly are very hard and tight. I have had a couple of couple cups of nettle tea, though, and hope that will help.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/06/2008 08:22:15
Luke has reported improvements in his varicose veins on the psoriasis study in a very short period of IBT. http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?p=362067
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/06/2008 10:13:39
You really need to be sleeping on a tilted bed, because having your upper body propped up against the arm of the couch even with it's tilted is still going to be placing a load on the spine, and then there is the problem with your feet pushing against the other arm of the couch and the constant pressure on the bottoms of your feet which needs to be avoided due to the possibility of pressure sores developing on your toes, soles and heels. Whereas titling a bed will do the opposite. So maybe when you feel you have become accustomed to the incline you may consider retiring to an inclined bed?

You asked me about Chemo and Radio Therapy and hair. Danny, who outlived his prognosis of less than a year to live by 10 years noted that after tilting his bed, his hair no longer fell out following chemo and radio therapy. Ironically his white blood cell count went down and his red blood cell count went up but that’s another study for another time.

Check out also milkthistle for protecting your liver and kidneys during radiation therapy.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 26/06/2008 12:33:42
This is all a very fascinating subject for me to study, Andrew, but to put your mind at rest, mine isn't the normal type of sofa with solid arms. I don't prop myself up on the arm at the head end, as that is a simple, metal arch, I just use pillow. There's nothing at the foot end for my feet to connect against, except perhaps a sleeping dog, so the feet would end up poking over the end into space if I slipped down the incline. It's the support the sofa back provides for my back, and to keep my sleeping on my side rather than rolling onto my back during sleep, that I rely on. It's also ample long enough for me to stretch out full length along, being a sofa bed, rather than a bed. I could pull it out to make it a flat, double bed, but by morning be unable to get out of it and be in agony. Perhaps, if there's a significant improvement resulting from inclining the sofa bed, I'll risk pulling it out flat one day in the future, but not at this stage or as my back is at present, okay? [:D]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/06/2008 13:17:04
Great, I can now sleep at night myself instead of worrying about you and the dogs piled up at the bottom of a settee :)

It might interest you to know that this is normal for our family, we are continually snuggled up with 3 of our 4 bull terriers. The older one Nelly is an antisocial miserable old cow around the home but we still love her :) Shes great when shes outdoors. At 10 she managed to bag a magpie that came too close while out for a stroll (terrier type) Still one less magpie means lots more safe birds eggs.

Got a good feeling about you joining this study and know if it does not go to plan you will say so and if it does you will tell it how it is. Your friend should benefit from IBT greatly given her problems with nerve damage.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 26/06/2008 14:53:16
I have a feeling about it too, Andrew. Borrowing from my goddaughter's vocabulary, when I first read this thread, I was 'prinkling'. [;)]

I have my grandson here now, so concentration is impossible! He's now trying to discover what the two levers do under my office chair, so I'm on tenterhooks in case my seat suddenly crashes down! Think he'll need to be a bit stronger yet to operate the levers but... Counted over 50 Whys, whats and hows already since he walked in through the door! Still lagging behind with answers for him as he speeds ahead with the questions, punctuated by tales and queries after the black dog's health, since the little golden one was ill and had to be put to sleep! He wanted a drink, so I offered him a sip of my 'Beekle juice' (beetroot juice), which he's never tried, so was suspicious of, unlike his father at that age, who would eat pickled beetroot (or onions) until the cows came home and then drink the vinegar as well. Instead he opted for my 'squirty bottle' of water, send a load down his neck and chest with a misfire at his mouth, so promptly upped his t-shirt and dried his chest on his granddad's trousers! Granddad (my ex) then threatened to leave him here with me, which would have delighted the young 'Mini-Mick-Taker' so grandma had to do a rapid fiery dragon act and herd the pair of them out of the front door!

What's the betting than little fellow wants to know why my sofa bed is inclined and when it finally is... Who would have though it so hard to get hold of a couple of 6" blocks of wood? It'll be easier around here to find an old length of railway sleeper and cut that to size... and I just might know where one of those is...

Be seeing you!

BTW, the Grumpy Old Mare is moving house, so may be missing for a couple of weeks and until she has her internet connection sorted at the new location.  [:)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 26/06/2008 19:52:50
Progress Report:

Someone had pinched that railway sleeper!  [::)] (It would have been a swine to extract anyway, and I think it must either have gone or been buried when a JCB was working in the area recently.)

I have ordered a pair of wooden lifts to be made by probably the only place around here willing to make them as a one off item, and at a price I'd rather not afford, so Mike has kindly offered to put his money where my mouth is. (This probably in return for resisting the temptation to remove or otherwise alter his scalp in the recent challenge.) [;D] I am told by the managing director of the company, in person, that they will be ready next Wednesday. (That'll be £30 per pair, Mike, and that's for the soft wood ones, so if you want hard wood ones... might I suggest you or Mig saw a couple of your oak logs to size?)

Photos: (Be warned, these are not a pretty sight!  [;D] )

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/alhammett/Leftinsideleg.jpg)
Left Inside Leg - showing affected veins and a degree of oedema present together with the depression left in that from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/alhammett/Rightinsideleg.jpg)
Right upper inside leg - difficult to see the veins due to the current level of oedema. The marks showing in that represent having been wearing knee length socks.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/alhammett/Rightankle-lowerleg.jpg)

Right ankle and lower leg, again showing a measure of oedema from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

Varicose veins not shown: Haemorrhoids.

History:


The varicose veins on my right leg began to develop following a riding accident when aged 16 years (August 1968) and after being trampled by a young pony whilst training for a career in the equestrian industry. Although not easy to identify, there is still a horseshoe shaped depression in the lower calf region and between the two main areas affected. The upper area has been affected on numerous occasions by phlebitis and, possibly, by cellulitis. (Different doctors, different diagnosis - each prescribed the same anti-biotic on each occasion, with was successful in treating it. I will confirm the name of that anti-biotic if/when I can access my medical records.) At the time of the riding accident, some neurological damage occured and resulting in a loss of sensation to the right big toe. This was finally and fully restored after approximately 4-5 years.

The varicose veins on the left leg and mid-calf region have gradually developed with the onset of middle age.

The haemorrhoid problem can be traced back 30 years (1978) to pregnancy and the birth of my son in 1978, and these have been an ongoing problem, and especially acute when affected by IBS, which is largely controlled by diet unless the need to take medication causes an impact on the system, affecting the frequency and consistency of bowel movements.

The oedema varies according the what exercise is possible at a given time, and whether or not, often severe, periods of insomnia occur, and/or whether it is possible at any given time to rest with the weight off the legs.

Current Weight: 15st 2lbs (212lbs) following breast cancer surgery and full left axillary lymph node clearance operations. (Pre-operative  weight: 14st (196lbs.) )
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/06/2008 17:13:15
Thanks for the photographs, which are very useful. These show predominantly thread veins, which are not swollen like varicose veins. The vein on the back of your calf is a varicose vein but is probably obscured from view by your oedema. The oedema on the other hand should be easier to determine improvements or indeed the reverse.

Have you been advised to raise your legs to address the oedema and varicose veins? This is the usual advice people are given by their doctors, nurses and therapists.

Your current blood pressure stats might prove to be valuable also if you have them as this should alter too and should be monitored. Your GP might be interested in what happens with regards to BP.

The Following 2 photographs were taken 5 days after IBT. I have added them to this post so they can be compared more easily on the same page.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/1Leg7thJuly2008.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/2Leg7thJuly2008.jpg)

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 27/06/2008 18:29:13
Thanks, Andrew. Actually, the photos don't show clearly how prominant and swollen the ones just below my right ankle are in reality. The dark spots usually stand out about 1/4" from the rest of my skin. Those below the right knee, when the oedema isn't obscuring them also, are varicose, trust me! Lol

I have been told to put my feet up in the past, but not necessarily to raise them at an angle. Just to take my weight off them, and not to sit at the PC etc for too long a period without taking a break and walking around to help the circulation. All very well when I can, and I do tend to do that naturally, but of late, yes, I've been sitting too long in one position, and without sufficient breaks. [::)]

Will add the BP Stats later and once I have stopped rushing around feeding critters and dealing with chaos here.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/06/2008 18:39:54
Hate to be a pain in the ass but could you measure your legs in order to determine how swollen they are as this will help to see how the swelling is responding or not to IBT.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 27/06/2008 22:02:07
No problem, Andrew. [;)]

Left mid calf: 45cms

Right mid calf: 43cms

These measurements taken after assisting the vet to examine (including internally); inject and tube a two years old pony with gas colic; getting head butted in the left breast (yeah, right on the op site/healing scar); and generally being thrown around a stable! [:)] Somehow I think today is not a good day to record blood pressure! Just been back to check the said 'sick pony' before vet phones me back, in case she has deteriorated and we need to consider euthanasia. Said 'sick pony' has now rearranged the stable furniture, kicked the water bucket to bits, done her percussion practice for my amusement all around the kicking boards and doors and farted directly into my face! I was supposed to listen and check her for gut movement, and check her pulse points, and the colour of her gums etc. The gums looked okay when she was attempting to take my hand off and I would say taking her pulse would be a waste of time right now, and until she's ceased the tantrum or circus act! LOL

Not sure what the vet will make of it when she calls, but unless she's eaten locoweed, I'd say she was clearly feeling better, and I'm not about to risk my neck further by scrabbling around looking for fresh bits of dung in the shavings with her throwing tantrums like that! She actually reminds me a bit of the pony that trampled me that time, although that one turned out to have a brain tumour, this one's just a sassy madam feeling better after a colic bout... I take it you agree re. the blood pressure? [;D]


BTW, what you said about the bladder/oedema - granny was sucking eggs as a toddler - aye, and squatting in the corners of stables every few minutes when she wasn't peeing herself trying to get out of the way of the flying hoofs! Lol [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 30/06/2008 02:29:23
Andrew, further to our discussons re. oedema and nettle tea/asparagus detox, I thought you might like to know the current measurements of my calves.

Left mid calf: 42cms (Down from 45cms.)

Right mid calf: 42cms (Down from 43cms.)

And this is before raising the bed for the IBT! When last measured for the purpose of buying a pair of half-chaps a couple of months ago, each calf measured 38cms.

Tomorrow I will see if I can get into my wellies again.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 01/07/2008 00:42:22
Just a quick update - both calves have gone down now to 41cms.

Checked my BP earlier and that was 142/84 and pulse rate was 85; respiration 10 per min.

Thought to check it again after sitting here a while doing nothing more than typing. Shocked to see it is now 158/91 and my pulse 79. Respiration still 10 per minute.

Body fat now showing a horrendous 49.6%; Body Water 35.1% and body muscle 47.3%!

Can anyone explain how these machines are supposed to work? How can one end up with a total percentage that exceeds 100%?

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 01/07/2008 01:23:14
Hummm thats odd.. I don't know I have never used one that measures all that stuff!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 01/07/2008 08:31:57
Great thanks for providing the stats very useful later. After you tilt your bed we will be able to determine what if anything has changed from sleeping flat.

The asparagus and nettle Tea when combined with IBT should produce some observable changes in oedema.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 01/07/2008 11:43:55
Karen, I spotted it on offer in the local pharmacy when there yesterday, and so cheap I couldn't resist it. (I am as bad as my grandson for gadgets! Lol )

However, I have asked in the technical forum for more information about how these monitors work and can give accurate readings. Another mystery for the OD to add to the collection. [;)]

Time for a nettle tea and a bath, I think, before I land the little collection of printed papers on my doctor's desk this afternoon...

Btw - BP this morning after simply sitting here is: 154/88;

Pulse rate: 86
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.8%
Body Water: 35%
Body Muscle: 47.1%
Mid Calf circumference - both now: 40cms.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 01/07/2008 12:10:29
http://www.psoriasis-help.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18376.50.html
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Web%20Page%20Pictures/PennyWomansRealm1.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Web%20Page%20Pictures/PennyWomansRealm2.jpg)

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Web%20Page%20Pictures/pennude.jpg)

Penny a few years ago in Lanzarote on the right.
Penny used to have a large varicose vein down the inside of her leg. This has now gone flat also.
Note also Penny’s skin to this day remains clear, although on occasions she does get some P on elbows and in the lower back area, but these are temporary flares rather than stubborn psoriasis.

I have just been sent some pretty impressive photographs from another person who is testing IBT for varicose veins. In due course we will have a set of photographs for comparison and then we can identify whether this is working or not.

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 02/07/2008 18:54:42
That is all really encouraging, Andrew. [:)]

Collected my blocks today and my son remembered to turn up to do the bed lifting, so I'm all  ready for kick off now.

Just taken another set of stats for you, which are as follows:

BP this evening when sitting here watching Nadal v Murray match [;D] is: 138/82;
Pulse rate: 85
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.6%
Body Water: 35.1%
Body Muscle: 47.3%
Mid Calf circumference - both still: 40cms.
Weight: 15 st.

For the record: Today has been very wet here in the valley and my joints have all been aching from arthritis. (Polyarthropathy affects me literally from toes to jaw and all between. Noticably worst in ankles, knees, spine, shoulders, elbows, and wrists today.)

Medication and suppliments taken:
1 x 1 a day cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule.
600mg dispersible aspirin.
1 x 10mg Loratadine (Non-sedating antihistamine to address hayfever/sneezing, as the latter especially can aggravate my back inflamation.)
By the time I go to bed - 2 x cups nettle tea, plus some asparagus with a chicken and rice for evening meal, beef salad roll lunch and cereal/fruit/nuts mix for breakfast with 1% fat skimmed milk.

Exercise today has largely been only stretching and short period of that while using hand-held, low weights - no more than 7lbs per arm.

If you need anything else, Andrew, please let me know.



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 02/07/2008 21:39:56
Andrew

A knee pain that i never got diagnosed properly and am guaranteed to get a visit from at least 2-5 times depending a week, is now behaving differently.

A Specialist doctor looked at this problem when i was 5 years old,growing pains seemed the easiest way to diagnose it, at 6ft 3.5 inches i did grow but stopped several years ago. I am now 33 years old and i am still suffering. A operation was tried several years later but did not work.

I would normally get a slight pain behind the knee, this was a warning that the pain was coming, now i either stopped the pain before it started by taking the pain killers early or i would loose the pain and it would come back very bad the second time.

This pain has been known when not treated to stop me walking properly.

The pain is now only coming on with the first warning signs under the knee, then it is going and not returning as it would do normally, i have also noticed that when i told you that i had a pea shaped swelling that was tender to the touch on my groin creece that was noticed on saturday. (It feels like when you touch under your neck when you have a bad cold.) i was presuming it was a swollen groin gland, is it possible that this might be a sign that my system may be trying to fight this horrible knee pain from coming on, as it is starting and stopping at least 4 times daily at the moment without fully developing.  And i don't have to reach for the pain killers.

Only 2 full attacks this week with this pain.
Alun

I have never experienced this pain to start coming on not flare up fully and not return??????????
I will keep you posted on this interesting development
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/07/2008 21:54:29
Alun thank you for posting these photographs. They offer much encouragement for others to join this important study but they also offer some serious problems for current physiology literature, which does not and cannot relate to how gravity can change pressures inside the veins! In fact the common advice is for people to sleep with their legs up above the heart and this has never been shown to offer any permanent relief from varicose veins or oedema.

Prediction: All good theories can offer sound clear repeatable results. I have been repeating these same experiments since 1994 and producing predictable repeatable results. But alas these can be easily ignored, and have been ignored by too many.
 
To prove this point again, I made another identical prediction in the very title of this thread as a challenge for nurses’ doctors, scientists and surgeons to test my theory and come back to us and relay their findings. Once again and sadly none were forthcoming so presumably this challenge has also fallen on deaf ears.

Alan’s results so far look pretty conclusive for a mere 7 days of Inclined Bed Therapy out of the 4 weeks of IBT that were advised in order to show substantial improvements.

My research has taken me on a long learning curve as to how best to go about showing the importance of gravity to people who should sit up and take notice in order to save lives from unnecessary and dangerous procedures that expose people to lethal infectious diseases, blocked and collapsed veins, circulation failure, stroke, heart failure and with little chance of providing permanent remedial results frequently leading to more repeat surgery.

In this thread I have stated that we have to address the cause of varicose veins which is a pressure difference between the vein and the surrounding muscle and skin tissue. When the pressure is higher inside the vein or lymph system fluid leeches out causing the limb to swell. Inclined bed therapy (IBT) addresses this by recognising how solutes alter pressure inside vessels when they are moved by gravity in the direction they are supposed to move and it is the solutes that provide the reduced swelling in varicose veins by altering the pressure in the arteries and increasing the tension in the blood inside the veins and when the pressure inside the veins and lymph system change favourably to the surrounding tissue pressure we see a migration of oedema back into the veins, through the arteries where the solutes and the excess fluid is excreted in the urine.

Did Alun’s feet swell up as a result of IBT? Apparently not according to the photographic evidence!

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 04/07/2008 17:26:48
First night sleeping on the inclined bed, there was no noticeable increase in the oedema in my ankles, Andrew, but the biggest change I noticed was that I woke actually feeling as if I'd had some measure of restorative sleep. That must be the first time in months that has happened to me. Could be coincidence, of course, but...?

There was also less aching from the arthritis in my feet, ankles and knees, despite the weather still being wet. I felt well energised all day. Too well, perhaps, as still wide awake at four the next morning, when I needed to up early for a hospital appointment by 7.30am. [::)]

Second night of IBT was therefore a short one, and was woken before naturally ready to wake, so not aware of feeling well-rested. Still no ankle swelling to report, but it does seem that either two lots of different hospital scales or the ones at the local chemist's must be wrong, as they weighed me today at a different hospital and 14st! A couple of days ago I was 15st on the chemist's scales, and 15st 2lbs on those just before. [::)] Will be glad when the right sized batteries for my own scales are in stock in town. I might then have a better idea of where I am at weight-wise and whether it is 4st or 5st I need to shed! Could be the weight gain was only 2lbs afterall and has been lost with the reduction of the oedema? There is still a bit of that present, and my calves are back up to 41cms, but the varicose veins on the right leg are becoming more visible now the swelling is reducing.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 05/07/2008 11:40:44
My stats taken this morning - 3rd day of IBT:

BP 137/87
Pluse:75;
Body Fat: 49.6%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 10 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms

I woke today feeling refreshed again, and naturally, after about 6 hours sleep. This is an unfamiliar feeling for me because, having FM, I normally feel as if I've not had enough sleep.

The aching in my ankles and knees has definitely reduced, but my lower spine (L4 - S1) where there is currently noticable acitivity relating to degenerative disc disease (as shown by scan) that pre-existed IBT, the aching is still present. The aching in my shoulders, wrists and elbows seems to have lessenned. (Weather here is still damp and overcast.)

Have taken the usual daily cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule, plus two aspirins today as anti-inflammatory.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/07/2008 08:51:24
A lady on another forum asked a question about people standing for prolonged periods having problems with varicose veins and oedema. So I have included my reply to her because many people will be wondering about how this applies to the IBT Theory.

I think there is some merit in standing for prolonged periods of time causing veins to swell but it may not be as obvious why this is happening and is often attributed to pooling of blood.

But we have a circular system, so if blood is pooling around the lower limbs something must be restricting the flow through the veins and causing back pressure.

Could this be the pressure on the tissue surrounding the veins in the feet, caused by the weight of a person standing in one position for too long? If this were the case, then the circulation might be compromised further and cause a person to collapse? Weddings, where a groom or bride stand motionless for longer than usual sometimes succumb to this and have been featured on short videos on TV. Guards standing to attention have learned to move their weight from one foot to another to avoid collapsing on duty. Again simply moving the weight like this would suffice to relieve the pressure and allow the system to function better.

Another point is that when a person has been on their feet all day they like nothing better than coming home to put their feet up, especially when the literature advises them that this is the best thing to do.

A giraffe for example stands on its feet and seldom lies down at all. One would thing with its massive height and impressive circulation it too would have varicose veins, yet it does not. NASA in fact are studying the animal to try to understand why it does not have problems with bulging veins. In the Giraffes leg the veins are closer to the bone than in humans and therefore have more muscle and tissue to hold in the pressure (It Is Thought by the NASA Scientists) Yet they still have to solve how those veins develop closer to the bones in the Giraffe. Could it be that the pressure inside the veins does not increase as predicted by the animal’s height? Indeed this appears to be the case. So if the pressure is much lower in the veins than the surrounding muscle and tissue the veins will not bulge and oedema will not form. But more to the point the pressure inside the muscles and skin will be higher than the vein and this should be able to explain why the veins remain closer to the animals bones while the animal grows to adult size. An analogy of this is a bench I once saw secured to a tree for many years. The tree had grown around the bench and a huge portion of it was inside the tree completely engulfed by the trees production line of tiny tubes we see as the grain in timber.   

I have added pictures from Old Dragon in one of my posts next to her original photographs for ease of comparison. These now photographs taken 5 days after Inclined Bed Therapy Began show a definite relief in skin tightness resulting from a migration of fluid from the affected limbs back into the main circulation as predicted.

Old Dragon’s Doctor predicted a significant increase in swelling which clearly has not occurred! 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 08/07/2008 11:51:17
Here are some stats for you, Andrew, taken this morning after 6 days/nights of IBT.

BP: 133/77
Pluse: 81
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st. 12.8lbs (Stripped and taken using my own scales.)
BMI (Body mass index): 33.3.
Hours sleep previous night: 5 - woke naturally feeling refreshed again.
Pain level/location/s: Low grade, dull ache L4 - S1 region of spine. Low grade ache both feet/ankles. (All areas known to be affected by OA/previous injuries.)
Medication taken: 1 soluable aspirin. (Reducing to 1 per day from average of two every other day as experiment.)
Suppliments: 1 x 1 a day cod liver oil & glucosamine capsule. 1 x milk thistle capsule, 1 x cup nettle tea.

Weather: Damp & overcast but trying to brighten.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/07/2008 20:59:50
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/all-in-one-2week-vein-photos2.jpg)

Alun's photo after two weeks of IBT. Note the veins are fading from the top first. And they are becoming thinner as a result of avoiding a flat bed.

Link to High res photograph:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/all-in-one-2week-vein-photos2.jpg
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 09/07/2008 12:57:56
Those photos are really impressive, Alun. I've tried to take mine out on the back yard and when the flash on the camera doesn't kick in. It's been a case of trying to get the shots myself between showers, hence the odd angles. Lol

Anyway, after the first full week of IBT, here at the latest stats:

BP: 127/76
Pluse: 78
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 39.5cms; Right: 39.5cms.
Weight: 14st. 11.2lbs (Stripped and taken using my own scales.)
BMI (Body mass index): 33.3.
Hours sleep previous night: 5 - woke naturally feeling refreshed again.
Pain level/location/s: Low grade, dull ache L4 - S1 region of spine.

Medication taken so far today: 1 soluable aspirin. (Having reduced to 1 per day from average of two every other day as experiment.)
Suppliments: 1 x 1 a day cod liver oil & glucosamine capsule. 1 x milk thistle capsule, 1 x cup nettle tea.

Weather in the valley: Very WET!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 09/07/2008 21:26:37
No problem, Alun, your points are very valid and useful. Which reminds me, Andrew wanted some photos of my finger & toe nails - if it ever stops raining, I'll try and get those. Lol (Now where did I put that manicure set someone once bought me a dozen Christmasses or more ago... [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Carolyn on 11/07/2008 04:59:47
Andrew - My Dad, as of today, is home from the hospital after having a heart attack and triple bypass surgery and having his aortic heart valve replaced.  I've been telling my mother about the Inclined Bed Therapy and she wants to give it a try. 

I'm curious to know whether there are any conditions where IBT would be considered unsafe.

He's still very weak and is on oxygen.  His feet are also quite swollen tonight, but he's also been up moving around probably more than he should have.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/07/2008 08:27:03
HI Carolyn. Your father should be fine on IBT. Torbay Hospital now advise heart patients to put their beds on an angle.

It should improve his breathing and increase the amount of oxygen in the blood and also remove the oedema from his legs over a few weeks. It will slow down his heart rate by 10 to 12 beats per minute and his respiration by 4-5 breaths per minute compared to sleeping flat. This is due I think to a steady stronger heart beat emerging that empties the heart properly and this takes a little longer than a shallow beat. Same applies to the lungs, they appear to inflate and deflate more effectively on Inclined Bed Therapy again this takes a little longer than shallow breathing.

Circulation definately improves and can be observed with skin colour changes in hands and feet and also a warmer skin to touch confirms improvements in circulation. It has also been confirmed by a nurse at Derriford Hospital recovery room electronically.

RE unsafe: There may be a problem getting in and out of the bed for people that are very frail and unsteady on their feet to begin with so careful supervision is required during transfer from a wheel chair to the bed and the reverse.

Also where a collapsed vein is suspected, p[osibly due to varicose vein surgery then the affected limb may show signs of poorer circulation due to the lack of pressure to keep the collapsed vein open.

This is why I have asked for people who have not had surgery to come forward so that we can avoid this problem albeit very rare. I have only heard of one case where IBT has decreased circulation to a limb with a collapsed vein.

Important to avoid the feet pressing on a footboard as constant pressure during the night could comprimise circulation in the toes and feet as the bones apply pressure on the tissue against a foot board. So make sure he does not slide down to the bottom of a bed with a footboard.

A prediction for your Father using IBT.

Metal heart valves can be heard and almost always have audible fibrilation and often miss beats during flat bed rest.

Sometimes a blue tone in the skin appears on the lips, fingers, toes and nose indicating poor circulation following these implants.

All of which will resolve on inclined bed therapy in 4 weeks.

So if you could confirm your fathers current observations following surgery re his heart rate blood pressure,respiration rate, weight etc and share them with us we should be able to see marked changes if he were to test this theory.

Andrew 


Andrew - My Dad, as of today, is home from the hospital after having a heart attack and triple bypass surgery and having his aortic heart valve replaced.  I've been telling my mother about the Inclined Bed Therapy and she wants to give it a try. 

I'm curious to know whether there are any conditions where IBT would be considered unsafe.

He's still very weak and is on oxygen.  His feet are also quite swollen tonight, but he's also been up moving around probably more than he should have.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 11/07/2008 19:49:25
Carolyn, I do hope that your father feels better very soon. My mother had a quadruple by-pass and valve replacements some years ago, and made a marvellous recovery.

These are some of the things that I have observed during the 8 nights Ive now been sleeping on an inclined bed.

During 7 of the 8 nights, I have slept for at least 4 - 5 hours and woken naturally feeling REFRESHED by the sleep! That is a big change for me, as I often struggle to sleep at all and for days at a time and, having fibromyalgia, almost always wake feeling as if I've not slept at all. I actually feel as if I have some energy for a change... and that's a bit of a novelty for me!

The small, bobbly blue veins in my right ankle that resulted after a riding accident when I was 16 have disappeared!

The oedema in my legs/calves has reduced by up to 5.5cms and my legs have not been swelling during the day.

Tenderness in the area of my varicose veins has reduced considerably, and I have even risked kneeling down to do things a couple of times and with no problem at all. (In the past this action has usually resulted in a bout of phlebitis.)

The pain and inflammation, plus the fibro related 'hot spots' in my upper back (thoracic and lower cervical vertebrae) and shoulders has not affected me. (Immediately prior to the trial, I felt as if the area had been scalded and could hardly bear even a light T-shirt on that.)

The arthritic pain in my feet, ankles and knees has disappeared!

The low grade aching in my lumbar spine - L4 - S1 - appears to be reducing slightly now. (And an x-ray taken of that very recently showed considerable osteo arthritic activity and evidence of degenerative disc disease.)

My blood pressure has been steadily reducing - similarly my pulse rate and respiration.

I have lost a little over 3lbs in weight, and without any particular changes to my diet! (Which is a reasonably healthy eating plan, with a few naughty indulgences here and there. )

So far, I've not noticed any negatives. Even the dogs haven't complained about the change to the angle of their sleeping arrangements.

Would I go back to sleeping on a horizontal bed...? Not if I can help it! 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 12/07/2008 14:47:07
I think I over-did things yesterday and my lower back has really kicked off again today, and despite about 6 hours sleep last night. I know that you mentioned the back ache could get worse temporarily, but hard to say if it's as you predicted or because I pushed myself yesterday. Either way, have dug out an old back support today to see if that will help a bit. Have a fair bit of work/listing to get done today. Not done stats, as it's proven impossible to sit quietly even for 20 minutes without interruptions.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 12/07/2008 17:30:47
Old Dragon

I hope you feel better soon, sounds like you are having a hard day.

I know your health probs, can not be compared to mine.  But you may find that improvement happens quiet quickly at first, but then is not noticed as much for sometime many days after.

This is when you can get abit down and feel that was it working aswell as you thought.

I have went through spouts of feeling up then down, i think it can be quiet emotional at times. analysing everything that happens.

Hope you get well enough to carry on with the incline.

Regards Alun



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 12/07/2008 18:47:54
Cheers, Alun, although I'm not considering stopping the IBT at all. Certainly not because of an aching lower back. I've lived with that problem for many years and am hoping that, long term, the IBT will benefit it.  [;D]

Having a busy, rather than hard day, and have just walked down and back to see to the horses, and to try and get a bit of fresh air and exercise. Could have taken the car but trying to keep up with some simple exercise ideas, aching back or not. [;)] Lol I'd probably be more likely to get annoyed with myself than feel down if I didn't. [:)]

One thing I didn't mention before, is that my haemorrhoids have been behaving really well since inclining the bed. [;D]

I find it really interesting analysing the things that happen. The difference in your photos is quite amazing, and my mother has a varicose vein in a similar position to you, and has asked me to print off details from this thread now and show her your photos. She's going to incline her bed and keep us updated via my brother on her progress. Besides the veins and oedema, she also has an ulcer that has been troubling her for a long time and has been infected with MRSA, too.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/07/2008 11:44:23
Sorry Alun I was advised of this over the telephone during a pilot study invloving spinal cord injury. It was an observation made by a lady who noticed her foot became blue when inclined and later confirmed she had an ongoing problem with a collapsed vein caused by varicose vein surgery.



Andrew

Could you give me any more information on the relationship with a callapsed veins and surgery, was interested to see this mentioned in the above thread.

Are patients that have had surgery for varicose veins, more prone to this even many years after as well ?

I know that if a patient has had surgery once on a vv, that the procedure is more involved next time, if it is not successful.

alun

P.S  I hope Carolyn's father gets better soon.


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 14/07/2008 12:10:23
Just to give you the promised stats and after the 12th night of IBT...

BP 109/79
Pluse:71;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 41cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st 12lbs. (Can't believe I've gained a little, and after all that exercise yesterday! :( Will have to pretend it's muscle, even if the other stats don't agree!

No changes in medication/suppliments.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 14/07/2008 13:05:33
Hey Al.. I could not find one of those gadgets at the pharmacy any other ideas..?

How are you feeling today? I hope you are ok... I was thinking of you in the night and was a bit troubled in my thoughts.. did you not sleep well or over do it a bit yesterday?

I hope you feel well today and have a great day!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 14/07/2008 14:33:57
I'll try and find out if that pharmacy have a website and can supply to the USA when I take the post up the road later, Karen.

Yes, I did over do things a bit, as expected, but actually went to bed quite early for me and slept well, and for a bit longer than usual, too. My back and right hip ache today, but not too badly. ;)

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 14/07/2008 20:37:17
Al Your Stats are looking very interesting and Following the same pattern that Karen reported when she tilted her bed. Many others have also reported the blood pressure reductions. Your pulse is also fining a lower rest rate.

I noticed on your start photographs that you wear some kind of stocking that leaves a visible pressure mark in your skin. Try not wearing these types of socks and if you do need to wear them cut the elastic at the top. This should help move the fluid faster.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Carolyn on 14/07/2008 20:46:36
Dad's bed has been inclined now for 3 days.  The swelling has almost disappeared in his feet, his face is starting to turn back to it's normal shade and he's not using the oxygen nearly as much. 

I had planned on inclining my bed when I get home from Georgia in the hopes that it may help with the pain of the Fibromyalgia and possibly will help hubby's night leg pains, but after looking at mom and dad's bed, I'm not so sure hubby's going to go for it.  The feet of their bed was already 6 inches off the the ground and then we raised it another 6 inches.  That's a pretty steep incline....erhm...I would think that would make sex a little difficult!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 14/07/2008 23:06:31
Andrew, me and socks are a saga! Lol Pet hate is the ones that slide off into my wellies or boots, and I detest cold feet. Finding the balance between ones that stay up without too much pressure and yet don't end up in my boots is a mission impossible, I believe. Going to remove the elastic from my track suit bottoms, though.

Carolyn, I have it on good authority (from my goddaughter) that inclining the bed 6" at the head end seems to give her husband extra 'energy' in that department! [;)] Mind you, they have been known to raise the height of the kitchen table and experiment...  [::)] Whatever, she has told me that the bed they bought recently, and inclined, has brought a whole new dimension to their love life, even though they've retained their old waterbed, too! The elderly uncle who lives with them is talking about needing a holiday so that he can get some undisturbed sleep... [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 15/07/2008 13:30:06
I'm find it really interesting reading your posts and progress, Alun. Like you, I too have hayfever, but it's a few days now since I've felt the need to take antihistamines, despite the pollen count rising.

Today my stats are:

BP 113/81
Pulse:71;
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 40cms.
Weight: 14st 11.4lbs.

No changes in suppliments.
No aspirin taken today.

Minimal, low grade aching L4 - S1 spinal region.


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 16/07/2008 23:49:13
Well done, to your son, Alun. [:)]

I don't know about your legs getting sexier, but that vein certainly looks to be reducing steadily.  [;D]

My GP and the consultant at the cancer hospital are both showing an interest in the changes I've been noticing since commencing the IBT. I'm hoping that, by the time I next see the GP my veins and oedema will really leap out at him by their lack of presence. [;D]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/07/2008 21:40:58
Hi Carolyn
Thank you for posting this report on your dad's progress using Inclined Bed Therapy. I am currently corresponding with 10 Downing Street, My M.P Adrian Sanders and the National Health Service in a bid to have this study mirrored in a controlled environment.
I hope that some of them are taking on board what is happening here.

You may find that IBT has an aphrodisiac affect too if you get my drift. Furthermore my wife and I can personally testify to having a healthy active sex life sleeping on an incline.

Fibromialgia should respond well to IBT

Dad's bed has been inclined now for 3 days.  The swelling has almost disappeared in his feet, his face is starting to turn back to it's normal shade and he's not using the oxygen nearly as much. 

I had planned on inclining my bed when I get home from Georgia in the hopes that it may help with the pain of the Fibromyalgia and possibly will help hubby's night leg pains, but after looking at mom and dad's bed, I'm not so sure hubby's going to go for it.  The feet of their bed was already 6 inches off the the ground and then we raised it another 6 inches.  That's a pretty steep incline....erhm...I would think that would make sex a little difficult!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 20/07/2008 13:23:15
While in the bath last night, I had the chance to really look at those varicose veins - both the three little knobbly ones on the left leg and the longer one below my right knee. There are three distinct little depressions now over the ones on the left, and a depressed channel over the one on the right! My camera seems to be broken, else I'd have taken more photos. The shape of my left leg seems to have altered considerably, too.

Not done stats, as I'm full of a cold and chest infection, so feeling really crappy at the moment. However, so far, the coughing and sneezing hasn't caused my back to pop out of place in the thoracic region, which usually happens and then triggers the muscle spasms. The pains in my lumber spine seem to be easing off now, too.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 20/07/2008 14:45:36
I am sure sorry you are so sick right now.. sending good thoughts and lots of hugs.. feel better soon!

Glad your back has not spasmed either sounds like the incline is working wonders!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: oldbiker1 on 20/07/2008 16:32:53
I started IBT about six weeks ago - was painting my bed base and didn't want to set it on the carpet, so I put a couple 3" blocks under the head.  Went to bed that night and forgot the blocks were there. When I slept all night without getting up for the toilet runs, I wondered why - woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't believe that I had slept straight through - haven't done that for about 30 years.

So, I did some research on the Internet and found Andrew Fletcher's information.  So, I am now a "convert" -- currently at 4 inches, on the way up to 6" eventually.  Main benefits - sleeping soundly all night; no coughing at night anymore; only get up once and the varicose veins are disappearing. They weren't bad, but, at 68, I did have some minor issues in that department. But, they are disappearing gradually. My wife has had varicose vein problems for years, so I'm watching to see what happens with her.  She recently had some "work" done, so they were subsiding as a result of that, but I'll be watching to see if they stay away.

My son has sleep apnea problems and he just started (at 3") -- some improvement the first night -- will monitor that closely.

all for now...

oldbiker1
Escondido, California
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 21/07/2008 19:23:20
Sitting with your seat higher than your knees so there is a gentle slope down to your feet will give maximum benefits. Placing a pillow under the knee is suggested by the medical profession not myself.

In my opinion it will serve to slow down circulation and increase backpressure causing a blow out in the veins above the knee and may be responsible for the bulge in your groin area. I have posted a link to a video about blowouts (bulges) on the first page of this thread for you and others Alun.


Hi Members

Glad to see so many people gaining from the inclined bed therapy.

When i first started the inclined bed therapy (a month tomorrow), andrew mentioned the fact you could get further benefit if needed it through the day when using a certain type of rest for your legs. This type of resting had to be placed below the knee, so that the knee is higher than the foot when resting.

So i had to mention a rest that i am using that gives me a boost during the day and you can place it under tables and when you are watching TV, or on the computer etc.

I just had to tell all of you, as i think it is a great way of using this type of rest, and it feels great.

I am using a bean bag that is scrupled into a ball then, i sit slightly stretched out and place my feet in the middle, not only does it feel great, it keeps your feet warm.

This method it also easier to place under tables as well.

It has even stopped my knee pains coming on, when they have been starting.

Hope andrew approoves of this method

alun [;D]




Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/07/2008 08:23:24
The first opening sentence of this thread is why do varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of inclined bed therapy?

I waited many months for an answer and continually refreshed the thread to give ample time for an answer. Yet in a physiology and medical thread read by many working in the industry no answer was forthcoming and more disturbing was that no attempt was made as far as I am aware to put my words to the test by people involved in the care of patients. Eventually Alun and Alison both unqualified in medicine decided to put my question to the test. And both have reported significant improvements. Alun has provided us with some photographic and supporting text accounts of his own observations and we can clearly see a substantial gradual improvement in his varicose veins as predicted would be the case based on pilot study results. Alison has provided us with some evidence of changes in her oedema and varicose veins but Alison has also provided us with some important stats showing a huge improvement in blood pressure. Karen also provided us with statistics on another thread showing the same pattern in blood pressure changes. And Old Biker has provided us with an account of what is happening to himself as a result of accidentally inclining his own bed.

Every theory that holds true must be based on sound uncompromising science We test and retest to make sure that the theory is sound. We make a prediction and produce results to verify the prediction is either false or true. Then we test again and again and only when we are certain that there is no room for doubt we go public and make a challenge against the existing literature to bring forward an answer to what clearly goes against it’s acceptance and validity.

This study is on target to do justice to scientific method by invalidating erroneous Literature that is in need of urgent revision. But not because we are trying to prove a theory is correct or indeed is incorrect but because too many patients are suffering avoidable long term medical problems that frequently result in the loss of a limb or risk of infectious diseases from hospitalisation and in some cases even death. Surgical procedures are moving towards closing veins using ablation or foam injection or stripping veins, which have one thing in common. None of them address what causes the veins to bulge in the first place and so are destined to failure with more bulges and blow outs occurring elsewhere in the body as the same pressure that caused the first bulges in the veins will inevitably find a weak vessel and cause it to expend also.

Erroneous assumptions.
1.   The heart is solely responsible for pumping blood around the body.
2.   Raising your legs above the heart helps to resolve varicose veins.
3.   Raising your legs above or level with the heart helps to resolve oedema.
4.   Sleeping horizontal or flat has never been scientifically tested to see if it is ideally suited to human physiology. However it has been tested by NASA et al who have used it as a model to show significant degenerative affects on the body. They have done so to try to understand why reduced gravity in astronauts during space flight has such a profound degenerative affect on the human body.
5.   Sleeping flat assists recovery when we are ill, when all the evidence suggests this may not be the case. Ironic when the health industry relies entirely on flat beds for patients.
6.   Sleeping on an inclined bed will cause blood to pool in the ankles and feet. It does not!
7.   Sleeping on an inclined bed will cause oedema to develop. The opposite occurs and long-standing problems with oedema are resolved.
8.   Sleeping on an inclined bed causes circulation to slow down. It does the opposite and significantly increases circulation indicated by warmer hands and feet in bed and the development of a healthier pink skin indicating more oxygen is delivered to the body.
9.   Sleeping on an Inclined bed puts strain on the heart. It does nothing of the kind and slows down the Heart Rate by developing a cleaner stronger beat. Fibrillation is resolved and even in the case of a metal valve being used which is known to always cause fibrillation there is no fibrillation once the person with the metal valve has been introduced IBT. Furthermore it is not uncommon for the heart in such cases to miss beats during flat bed-rest. Again resolved by IBT. And last but not least A person with significant cyanosis- A bluish discoloration of the skin and mucous membranes resulting from inadequate oxygenation of the blood on the nose lips, fingers and toes should find they return to normal healthy colour, again indicating that circulation is improved on an inclined bed. Which does not sit well with current physiology literature.
10.   We know that thrombosis may develop when a patient is confined to a flat bed for too long. This is well understood and warfarin, aspirin and other drugs are administered in hospitals to help prevent this. Yet when Inclined Bed Therapy is adopted for a person with a visible Deep Vein Thrombosis, it resolves without medication and the hardened area in the calf vanishes. This happens because the circulation speeds up and like a fast flowing river the river bank is eroded, unlike a slow flowing river which allows sediment and debris to settle on the river bed.
11.   In the literature, there is no clear understanding of how lymphatic flow and cerebral spinal fluid flow occur in the body any more than there is a clear understanding of how trees lift water from the root to the leaf without a pump sometimes in excess of four thousand litres a day. We know it is not the heart that is involved with these non-pumped systems and we do know that posture and respiration are definitely involved. So why do we still adhere to a flat bed as a means to assist patients with neurological and lymph problems?
12.   Is it safe to place a baby in a horizontal position, I.E. on a flat bed? Is it a coincidence that the baby cries to be picked up when laying down flat and stops crying when in the arms of another human? It is believed that this is because it craves to be close to its mother. Yet the very act of cradling a baby in our arms produces an inclined posture, which relaxes the baby. Could the baby be trying to communicate with us to let us know how stupid we are by placing our babies flat? Could placing a baby flat compromise its circulation and could placing a baby flat be one of the reasons for cot / crib deaths?

The financial cost of surgery for varicose veins is: More than 50,000 varicose vein operations are carried out in England and Wales every year at a cost of between £400m and £600m
Private Health Care Costs: Varicose vein surgery on both legs will cost in the region of £2,100 to £3,000 inclusive of private hospital charges and consultant’s fees.Laser ablation treatment  will cost in the region of £2,000 to £2,500 one/two legs inclusive of private hospital charges and consultant fees.


Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Interest in the Temple! on 28/07/2008 10:51:18
Hi Andrew

I spent yesterday and this morning researching IBT and have found both the results and thinking behind it very interesting. Last night I slept at a 4" incline and plan to increase this over the coming weeks.

My partner suffers from varicose veins and has done so for about 7 years and I will photograph and monitor her development.

I personally suffer from lower back pain, which I have almost come to accept over the past 2 years - at the age of 26! This is obviously frustrating and I can clearly see the medical profession has not been the most respectful to your theories, which is pretty disgusting.

Having read and seen examples of were varicose veins have been reduced due to a gradual reduction in blood pressure in the veins. If this is the case, will this also work for facial redness? I suffer from thread veins on my face and as you have noted with vascular surgery for varicose veins, surgery is painful, expensive and short term. Can I expect any improvement in this with IBT?

Anyway, good luck in your research and I will post photos of any improvements me and my partner experience.

Peace and love.

Aidan
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 28/07/2008 13:32:38
Hi Aidan

Thank you for taking the time to investigate the theory behind IBT. And thank you both for testing my theory and providing us with your own observations. Make sure you both drink more water as IBT does have a slight diuretic effect as toxins are excreted more effectively due to the incline.

RE Thread veins on the face. Some reports of improvements in thread veins have indicated that yours may improve and I see no reason why they should not. However no one to date has mentioned facial thread veins so this could prove rather interesting and if you could get your partner to provide us with a photograph of the effected area it will help to identify changes. If this is a problem then please do not feel pressurised, as this is not my intention.

Namaste

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 28/07/2008 13:33:21
My camera is still not working, but the shape of my legs below the knees has certianly altered for the better,, so I'll do my best to find an alternate means to photograph them.

Today my stats are:

BP 133/88
Pulse:82;
Body Fat: 49.1%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 40cms.
Weight: 14st 10bs.

(These taken not long after returning home so not as well rested as would be ideal.)

No changes in suppliments.
No aspirin taken today but on regular doses of antihistamine tablets for hayfever and Salbutemol for asthma.

No lower back pain. (This despite additional work mucking out a stable daily.)


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 28/07/2008 14:17:21
.


Hi Andrew, I found keeping on top of your fluid intake makes a big difference when doing inclined bed therapy.

Also i have gained a great deal by trying to understand the theory side of inclined bed therapy especially the observation that i had made yesterday and today.

Yesterday, it was very hot and dry and i was particularly please with the way my vv looked, even to the point i ventured out on the evening with the dog with my shorts on, this has not happened since before i had them 15 years ago.

However, the next day it was 94% humidity and overcast. This made a difference to the look of my varicose veins and i felt disappointed about this until i remembered about the humidity part of andrews theory on inclined bed therapy.

This meant that i could understand that because i have only been on the ibt for 5 weeks my veins had reacted to the humidity in the air on that day, and i found this interesting to observe.

In other words a understand of the theory have befitted me greatly as well as the ibt itself.

This of course is thanks to Andrew, and the many questions he answers for me.

thankyou alun



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Squirrel on 28/07/2008 16:15:33
My Inclined Bed Therapy Experience.
5 years ago I inclined my bed to help with asthma and nasal problems – that worked wonderfully, I breathe quite easily now, however, over the past 28 years I have had several operations to remove and repair varicose veins, Which had recurred four times already and I was told by the surgeon that they would recur again. Both my mother and maternal grandmother suffered dreadfully with this complaint. I enjoy walking and the thought of eventually developing leg ulcers was quite terrifying to me as it would be to anyone, but my legs are fine now without even a hint of blue lines let alone lumps the size of walnuts, furthermore I have not suffered with any swelling in my legs or ankles since I began IBT.
It hadn’t occurred to me that I no longer had a varicose vein problem because that wasn’t why I’d inclined my bed in the first place, that was a brilliant unexpected bonus.
The downside of having the bed inclined is that I tried ‘Botox’ (as we ladies of a certain age might) and it only worked for about a week. The cosmetic surgeon was amazed that the paralyzed muscles in my face repaired themselves so quickly. She said I should console myself with the fact that if I should ever have a stroke my facial muscles would be back to normal in double quick time!
When I go away on holiday where I don't have an inclined bed I have noticed that my nasal passages are usually blocked for part of the morning, and I feel quite sluggish and apparently my snoring is deafening. My partner suggests that we pack a few bricks into the cases so that he can get a decent night's sleep.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 30/07/2008 10:07:37
Hi Squirrel Thank you for posting these valuable observations with repeated varicose vein surgery and your experience with using Botox. Both are fascinating, when first mentioned this was a revelation for me as I have been involved with neurological conditions as you know for many years and this proves what I have been stating about nerves recovering from impact or degenerative disease using Inclined Bed Therapy.

It’s a pity there are not more people using IBT that have tried botox to confirm this, but it would provide a great method of testing and compiling a protocol for a study to confirm the efficacy of IBT for spinal injury and other neurological conditions. If memory serves me well, you had this procedure repeated and the outcome was the same with a rapid recovery more than once? I have learned of several professional therapists in the USA who specialise in Spinal Cord Rehabilitation are already advising their patients to use IBT.

It is good to learn that you will not need further surgery on your veins in the foreseeable future and this can only mean than because the pressure inside the veins which was causing them to become swollen has now been reduced. Indicating that surgery success rates can be raised considerably and therefore substantially reducing the cost to the health service and the private patients.

It is great to learn about other implications for IBT and they are very important observations in their own right requiring further investigation and a controlled study to prove or disprove them.

Back to the purpose of this study.

I am very grateful for everyone that is helping me with this and the photographs and reports are indeed compelling. However we do need many more people to come forward and test this so I am thinking that an article in a newspaper, radio or tv programme would go a long way to finding some more people with varicose veins and / or oedema to help with our study.

Appeal.

If you are a member of a group, work in the health service, are a doctor or surgeon, or feel confident enough to ask your local newspaper to run a story about our study it would go a long way to helping us complete this study and move this discovery into mainstream practice and literature.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 03/08/2008 09:07:50
A very interesting email from Alun about how humidity affects varicose veins. I have not come across this before but it certainly fits with the gravity flow theory for circulation because according to it we need relatively dry air to change the density of fluids

From: Alun
To: Andrew
 
Subject: fascinating observation made - humid situation effect my circulation possibly .
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:09:05 +0100

Hi Andrew
 
I woke up Yesterday morning after having a fantastically warm day, it was noticed that my vv were looking better. and seemed to be improving quite well,  I woke up this morning, and took the dog out, but noticed a haze of fog just above the trees, we are not two deep in the valley so this does not happen very much so I remember it.
 
I managed to look at my varicose veins but they were not looking as good as yesterday (as if I was observing a older photo of them), and this disappointed me slightly, as i was enjoying the improvement they had made as well as everything else.
 
I am right in thinking, as I am sure we have mentioned this before.  Is this misty fog and the sluggish (i.e. humid) day we are having here affecting the way my vv’s are looking today, and the circulation?
 
Can you verify my findings here, look forward to hearing your opinion.
Alun
 
P.s. Can you recommend a self help for vv when the humidity is like this again. if possible ( or is there one?)


From: Andrew
To: Alun
Subject: RE: fascinating observation made - humid situation effect my circulation possibly .
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:51:53 +0000

Humidity in the high 90 % region has the same effect on the body as sleeping flat because it prevents us from changing the density of fluids from evaporation and in the lungs this is very important. High humidity means we are breathing in as much water as we are breathing out so this does not affect the solutes in the fluid and in the lung fluids and therefore has little to no effect on the flow through the body irrespective of posture. Combine High humidity with a horizontal bed and we have a double whammy on the body and this according to my theory will increase the death rates in valleys affected way above the national average. Leslie Munrow published statistical evidence to support this in relation to cot deaths increasing above the national average in river valley areas and low-lying coastal areas. So having some additional swelling is to be expected in these adverse conditions. This is the reason legs swell up in hot humid weather because the heart has to do more work and in doing so increases the pressure inside the veins causing fluids to seep through the vein walls into the limbs. Your report adds credence to the theory.


16°C
Current:Mostly Cloudy
Wind: E at 11 km/h
Humidity: 94%

RE: fascinating observation made - today and tomorrow
From: alun
Sent:
28 July 2008 15:08:24
To:
Andrew K Fletcher


Hi Andrew
 
This observation has been fascinating, because I had not expected these conditions and noticing the vv and then remembering the humid mist outside.
 
As i regularly use the incline bed over many months, will my body be-able to tolerate this types of condition when it arise.
i.e. will my body improve the way it reacts to this, when it happens later on in process.
 
Also, what had happened yesterday was a extremely hot day in which i had my shorts on, i was feeling confident about the way the veins were looking, even venturing out with the dog, this has not happened since i was 19 years old.
You would expect the heat to do the opposite, but they were looking good, not great, but good.
 
Were as today that confidence would not be there because of the humidity.
 
If i taken the photographs today for my 5 week report, i feel that i would not have the accurate results, as they would have been if i had took them the day before.
 
Do you know if i can get a humidity gauge of some sorts to use.
 
It must be frustrating if volunteers do not take note of the above happening, as they would probably feel that it was not working.
 
Thanks again Alun

From: Alun
To: Andrew
Subject: RE: next door neighbour - now up on bricks - my first recruite........
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:55:19 +0100

Hi Andrew
 
Old man of 78 next door, complained of urinating every hour, is now trying couple of bricks under his bed.
 
1st victory for me!!!
 
 
 
alun





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Andrew
To: Alun
Subject: RE: new photo - 4 - 5 week
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:02:59 +0000

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/4-5-week-photo.jpg)

Alun legs are still obviously improving and will continue to do so for many months to come until the veins are hardly noticeable at all. At times there will be some normal swelling and contracting as with any vein this is normal. However the overall trend from now on should be nice flat veins. As I said on the phone the longer the veins are flat the vein walls will contract and become stronger as with the balloon analogy I mentioned. (blowing up a balloon for the first time is harder than re-inflating a balloon) Same applies to varicose veins, if they remain flat for longer periods the veins should regain their elasticity and become more robust over months of IBT.

 
I just wish I could get more people to take part in this study. Fifty people and we could shame the current literature!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Squirrel on 03/08/2008 17:16:37
Hi Andy,
Thanks for your reply - yes I did have botox on more than one occassion as the cosmetic surgeon couldn't believe that it had not worked for longer than 1 week so she gave me a freebie as an apology, however this only lasted a week as well so when I returned to see her again she said she couldn't give me any more as she had already given me more than she felt comfortable with, in fact is was a dose suitable for a large man (she said) and as I am only 5'-2" tall she was worried about overdosing.  Guess I shall just have to put up with the wrinkled forehead!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/08/2008 09:39:16
Thanks for the confirmation. So here we have the same response to recovery from a botox injection known to cause paralysis in the nerve endings.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/botox1.htm
What is Botox?
Botox® is a trade name for botulinum toxin A. In this way, Botox® is related to botulism. Botulism is a form of food poisoning that occurs when someone eats something containing a neurotoxin produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum. Botulinum toxin A is one of the neurotoxins produced by Clostridium botulinum.
The most serious symptom of botulism is paralysis, which in some cases has proven to be fatal. The botulinum toxins (there are seven -- types are A through G) attach themselves to nerve endings. Once this happens, acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter responsible for triggering muscle contractions, cannot be released. A series of proteins, VAMP, syntaxin and SNAP-25, are essential for the release of acetylcholine. Certain botulinum toxins attack these proteins. Botulinum toxin A (Botox) affects the SNAP-25.

Basically, the botulinum toxins block the signals that would normally tell your muscles to contract. Say, for example, it attacks the muscles in your chest -- this could have a profound impact on your breathing. When people die from botulism, this is often the cause -- the respiratory muscles are paralyzed so it’s impossible to breathe.
At this point, you may be wondering why anyone would want to have a botulinum toxin injected into his or her body. The answer is simple: If an area of the body can't move, it can't wrinkle.


Yet you have indicated that you have built up an immunity to botox regaining the nerve fuction after 1 week using inclined bed therapy, not once but two times and one time using a higher than normal dose of the neurotoxin. This is astonishing and requires further investigation in its own right!

Thank you for this. I have just the person in mind that should learn of your observations. A Doctor Wise Young from the Carecure forum who is involved with spinal cord injury research. I will write to him and ask him for a comment.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/08/2008 09:49:38
On Friday I injured the heel and bottom of my foot installing a huge rainwater tank at my home by back-heeling it into position. Needless to say the tank did not move. In addition to this I had been jumping up and down on the ground to flatten lumps of soil, again not the wisest of moves.

My right foot became very painful throughout the day and swollen, as one would expect from an injured foot. Walking became very painful and the heel of my foot was very tender to touch even with slight pressure. Yet in the morning after 1 night of IBT my foot was not painful and had no signs of swelling, although I could steel feel it was not normal and had sustained an injury it did not trouble me like it did the previous day

Throughout Saturday, Rather stupidly we went on a 3-mile walk with the dogs and a friend so my foot became quite badly swollen throughout the day and very painful. Yet the following morning my foot returned back to normal as indeed I expected it to do so having a sound understanding of the way oedema occurs and having seen the same results when my two son’s, and my wife and I have injured a foot previously and used IBT to resolve the oedema. Wife injured her foot on a skateboard (don’t ask)

It occurred to me on Sunday that other people might want to see this before and after 1 day of IBT on a swollen foot so I took photographs yesterday teatime and more photographs this morning. When resting on the inclined bed my foot stopped throbbing almost immediately.
After 2 hours of IBT I went to the bathroom and noticed the swelling had gone done significantly and my foot was less painful to walk on albeit to the bathroom only.
The following morning my foot was almost the same size as the other foot and the oedema and pain / throbbing had resolved after only one night of Inclined Bed Therapy.

Andrew K Fletcher

Photographs taken prior to 1 night sleeping on an inclined bed. IBT
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew3rdAug08525pm1.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew3rdAug08525pm2.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew3rdAug08525pm.jpg)

Photographs taken the following morning after 1 night using Inclined Bed Therapy.

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew4thAug08814AM.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew4thAug08814AM2.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Andrew4thAug08814AM1.jpg)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 04/08/2008 22:06:10
Hi Andrew

I visited the beech today, and my legs feel great.

In both my vv and my knee pain this day would normally have been a issue for me, i was able to spend the hole day with the kids, aswell as walking up steep areas.  And this has not effected my legs at all, and it is all thanks to you.

You may find that some people don't listen, but i can't thankyou enough for making this information public and changing my life for the good.

It was my birthday on Sunday, and i definetly got a unforgettable present this year.

Alun

(And you have never asked for anything in return.)



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 06/08/2008 18:04:56
Happy belated birthday, Alun.  [;)]

Some stats for you, taken this morning but after a fair bit of activity, plus only two days after the chemo started and with a stack of anti-sickness pills in my system...

BP 132/76
Pluse:82;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.0%;
Body Muscle: 47.1%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 39cms; Right: 40cms.

Yesterday I felt fairly queasy following the first dose chemo on Monday, and didn't wish to be too far from the bathroom - especially as the IBS kicked off with a vengance, naturally aggravating the haemorrhoids - BUT nothing like as badly as I might usually expect in similar circumstances! They didn't bleed, as they would usually, which must be a good sign.

Today I feel quite good in the circumstances, and even managed to work the young pony for about half an hour. Which is another good sign.

Only possible negative is that I can't recall leaving my t-shirt around for the old grey-haired dog to lie on, and a friend remarked there were quite a few grey hairs clinging to the back of that! Odd, as they told me it wasn't usual to start losing any hair before the second week after chemo... Must be the old dog's! [;)] (Unless, of course, the IBT's pushing the chemo through the system faster?)

Whatever, managed to get my post out today and do a fair bit of work, so not complaining. Thanks, Andrew. [:D]

BTW - another potential film script title for consideration... 'Bed-Blockers (Anonymous)' - Suggested by the Pendraig and passed on at his request.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 07/08/2008 16:38:42
Hi Old Dragon

Look after yourself, and i hope the side effects of your treatment do not stay with you two long.

I hope the ibt will eleviate some of them.

Look forward to hearing from you again.

alun
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 07/08/2008 18:54:23
Thanks, Alun. I am sure that the IBT is helping, along with other of Andrew's suggestions, and I'm not feeling too bad at all today, although the IBS doesn't seem to appreciate the anti-sickness pills!  [::)] At least I'm able to keep busy - steadily so! Believe me, when I say that I am the type of person who will hibernate IF I really feel ill, but prefer to carry on as and when able. Hate being idle or moping around, but do pace myself.  [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 09/08/2008 08:36:19
Old Dragon
While your stats are impressive considering the toxins in your body from your treatments. In a PM you stated your rectal bleeding has increased considerably since your last post here. This is serious when you are on chemotherapy and radiotherapy and particularly when taking aspirin and other non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drugs. You need to contact your doctor ASAP.

Hate to be another pain in your already troubled posterior but we Really do need some pictures of your legs so we can see your progress with veins and oedema for comparison with your earlier photographs, can you knock on a neighbours door and ask if they have a digital camera and fancy doing a photo shoot for us, pretty please with knobs on.

Happy belated birthday, Alun.  [;)]

Some stats for you, taken this morning but after a fair bit of activity, plus only two days after the chemo started and with a stack of anti-sickness pills in my system...

BP 132/76
Pluse:82;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.0%;
Body Muscle: 47.1%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 39cms; Right: 40cms.

BTW - another potential film script title for consideration... 'Bed-Blockers (Anonymous)' - Suggested by the Pendraig and passed on at his request.

Put your health first please, the film script can wait.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 09/08/2008 08:40:11
Hi Alun thank you for your feedback, which put a smile on my face for days. It is a breath of fresh air when people like yourself benefit from this discovery and have the decency to return to let us all know how your everyday health problems are relieved. Northerners by nature have to tell it how it is. And I appreciate your integrity and accuracy.
You are not wrong about people not wanting to listen and this accounts for around 95% of the population who place their trust with health matters firmly in the hands of doctors and nurses, and I have no problem with this. My interest is in finding the 5% who want to avoid surgery and it’s inherent failure rates and risks of infection and circulatory failure and who are willing to give this simple free common sense approach to improving their varicose veins and oedema from the comfort of their own home.

5532 views so far. How many people have thought to themselves this is too simple it can’t possibly be of any use?

How many people have thought this is interesting and have not bothered to try it?

How many people are trying it and have not yet provided us with any feedback good or bad?

(If you decide to try this method please don’t become a member of the grab it and scarper brigade and do come back and let us know how you find IBT has worked or not worked for you)

How many people with varicose veins or oedema who are not trying this method have noticed spontaneous recovery from oedema and swollen veins as you, Karen, Old Dragon, Old Biker, Penny and Squirrel have shown us?

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 09/08/2008 17:45:57
Andrew, I'm keeping a close eye on the haemorrhoids/bleeding aspect, and have not actually needed to take my aspirins - nor would, in the circumstances. I've had this problem for years, and often a lot worse, but with the chemo going on, am keeping a very close eye on the situation. It seems that my IBS has been kicked off and is proving difficult to get back under control with diet at present. This is what's aggravating the piles. Normally, I would expect it to be considerably worse than it is in reality. The bleeding is stopping fairly quickly, and I have ointment prescribed to deal with it too. Just using rather a lot of it right now! [;)]

My neighbours here aren't likely to respond with the desired digi images of my legs, sorry. (Not people I'd ask, tbh.) Bear with me, and when it is meant to be, you'll get your updated pics. I'm in no position right now to go camera chasing, and have even had to get hold of my son to see to the stock tonight.

As for the film script - if that's all I can do whilst sitting on my sore posterior, so be it! When that gets too much, I shall away to my inclined bed and hibernate for a while! [;D]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 10/08/2008 13:26:17
Hi again Andrew

Forgot to mention that i had a muscle pain that was causing me concern in the 4 - 5 week of this experiment.

I thought this would be a issue in the start, but was suffering in the 4th week and was confused with the way the muscle especially on the thigh was like i had been for a long walk everyday.

However, i thought my posture was very good. but after my wife had bought me a new top with pockets on the front that i put on when this muscle pain was bothering me in this period of ibt.

Without thinking i placed my hands in the pockets (which made me change my posture slightly) when i was looking round a shop that day, and immediate relif was gained by doing this.

My observation is that i was so concerned about the initial pain that was coming from that area, that i changed my posture when walking etc as a protective way of ovoiding using that area as much (really causing more of a problem in that area).

A bit like when you have a bad shoulder, and you pull another because you are compensating for the area that is a problem.

Anyway i rectified this by positioning myself better when walking, and also added the head of my inclined bed to the bottom rather than the top, to stop my leg hanging to much of the end of the bed.

Have you had any reports similar to this one at all ?
alun

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/08/2008 09:19:35
Its normal to experience some muscle aches. Muscles become denser and stronger on IBT responding to exercise of any kind. My wife and I first noticed this strange phenomenon and realised after a few months that it was muscles firming up, yet we were not making a concerted effort to do this except for tilting our bed.

Your observations reminded me of this and also reminded me of a girl with cerebral palsy in Kent who had not walked until the age of 12 when her parents tilted her bed. This young girl had virtually no normal looking muscle on her legs due to the lack of movement and pressure changes we take for grated when we walk. She used callipers daytime and night time to keep her legs straight. After around 4 months of IBT Her mother confirmed that the girls leg muscles had been growing and becoming very strong, yet she was not exercising at this point. Lots more happened to this girl and one day we will have a separate study for children cerebral palsy to see if everything that happened to this little girl was a spontaneous remission from cerebral palsy or whether IBT was responsible for her getting out of a wheelchair and walking up stairs at school, much to the amazement of teachers, pupils and most of all her parents.

Ok this can be labelled as conjecture and anecdotal but we have to start somewhere and we always start with anecdotal evidence. This is the way that research develops into a full study!

There have been many more reports of muscular aches around the 4 week period. Spinal cord injury being another example where muscles firm up using IBT even though there is little exercise taking place. Another interesting observation is that muscle spasm in Spinal Cord Injury where the muscles are permanently flexed relax and become supple. But again merely anecdotal evidence even though there has been a large number of people reporting the same things.

Your correction to you loading one side of your body makes sense also. IBT helps us maintain a more upright posture, stretching the spine and elongating the body altering our gradual shrinkage over the years. You may find that the aches are something to do with you adjusting your posture also.

RE: using a foot board at the bottom of the bed.

Not advisable Alun as having a constant pressure on the base of the foot can cause circulation in the whole body to become compromised and could lead eventually to tissue breakdown so it may be better to wrap a duvet around your mattress to provide additional padding and friction to eliminate the movement down the bed.

We eventually went for a memory foam mattress that prevents slipping down the bed and provides additional comfort and support using IBT. Not expensive either we got ours a King Size from Makro for £200 a few years back.

Andrew






Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 11/08/2008 16:07:55
Andrew

Please can i ask if you use the memory foam matress as a additional matress, or as a replacement.

Thankyou for the advice on the headboard, i will take it of as you have suggested. It was a bit restrictive anyway, was just looking for a solution to the muscle ache but now it has been explained i will know how to deal with it now. [:)]

Thanks again alun
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/08/2008 18:09:31
Alun you can use a mattress cover these are much cheeper. We had a replacement mattress
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 17/08/2008 16:49:27
From another post relating to psoriasis recovery on an American Forum.

Bed styles in ancient Egypt remained very much the same for over 2000 years. They are among the most intriguing of furniture items because of their structure. Many were slanted down at an incline from the headboard. A footboard ensured that the sleeper would not slip off in the middle of the night. Furniture makers also constructed side rails on many beds. Writes Sibal, "….almost all beds featured legs in the form of animal legs, ranging from heavy bull’s legs to gazelle-like forms with hooves, and the feline type with paw and claw, frequently identified as  lion’s legs." The mattress was usually made of wooden slats, plaited string, or reeds, which then held woolen cushions or some other soft material. Sheets were made of linen.

Then there is the question of the headrest. Perhaps not everyone used these as pillows, but some physiologists have pointed out the ergonomic benefits on the spine of sleeping with the head resting in this position.
(http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/furniture8.jpg)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 20/08/2008 13:26:53
Well, I finally managed to get a night's RESTORATIVE sleep again and at last, after kicking my back off into spasms again last Wednesday and yet another bout of my long term sleep (or rather lack of it) disorder that those spasms bring on!

That sleep was achieved by sitting up on my sofa bed and with my back against the borrowed heated/vibrating back pad, and with my legs in the lowered, IBT position. (I'd not been to bed/slept  properly in a week!)

Anyone doubting the science behind IBT might be interested to learn that I measured my calves prior to sleeping - the left was 43 cms and the right, where I have the phlebitis, was 44.5 cms. By morning, the left measured 40 cms and the right was down to 40.5 cms! The inflammation in the tissues affected by the phlebitis was much reduced and less painful, also normal coloured instead of looking red and angry! There is still some hardness to the touch in the affected vein itself, but the whole area is nothing like as painful as it has been, and that only to the touch. I also FEEL refreshed!

Wow!  [;D]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 20/08/2008 20:40:20
Hi Old Dragon

Nice to hear that you have managed to get some sleep, lack of sleep in itself is horrible before even considering the problems you are having to deal with yourself.

I am glad the i.b.t is giving you some relief, i myself have had great results with i.b.t, not comparing my problems with yours, but i am so glad i had a open mind. and listened to whot andrew had to say and give it ago 2 months ago.

My legs feel great, i have had to take pain killers today for a knee pain attack, but considering i have not had a attack in 2 weeks, and in all 2 months has only given me 7 times in all when i have had to use painkillers.

I would normally predict at least 3 times or more a week at this time of year, considering it has been raining and the hay fever season has been here for many weeks.  this is unbelievable.

Not to mention the varicose vein improvement. ( i am writing this thread with my shorts on, happy days.)

Hope you get well soon, old dragon.
alun [;)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 21/08/2008 05:51:33
Thanks, Alun - I also hope that I 'get well soon' too - but having spent many a year aiming to do that, fear that my various afflictions may be with me to the grave.  [;)] Have I ever mentioned to you how, at Christmas time, I am not adverse to sending out more than a few 'Get Well Soon' cards in place of the more conventional types? This, alas, is devilment, I admit, and hardly a sign of me getting well at all!

I have, early this night, spent sometime chatting with a very old pal, currently staying with Mike, and while he shares some of his tales of the road to assist with Bed Blockers. Also, because he is a 'man of the road' I wondered how he was finding it, sleeping on an inclined bed whilst with Mike.

I don't know what medical conditions this fellow might have, but he most certainly looks very fit and healthy for his age - which I guess must now be well into his 70s.

Now, this fellow has a very luxuriant beard and a mane of white hair, and he told me that on more than one occasion when he has been busking, children have approached him and asked him if he is God?

"Is that really who I look like to you?" he'd ask them.

"Yes, they would reply."

One day a child replied - "Well, you look like more like a Smurf to me."

My old friend was most amused by that - especially because, for many years, that is the name he has always used - Smurf.  [:D]

Of course, that story had me in hoots of laughter, so, alas, I am not yet fully in control of either the back problem/spasms, or my ability to deal with the sleep disorder!

One thing that Smurf did remark to me was that, since spending a few nights on an inclined bed, he has observed some remarkable changes in his own system.

Firstly, his feet are now warmer; secondly, that his legs appear to have stopped aching as they usually do when the weather is cold and wet; and, last but not least, he is er... Well, shall we just say that he's been affected by that which appears to be afflicting some of the male members of the writing team, as well as several of the fellow inhabitants of The Risings Residential Care Home!  [;D]

 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 23/08/2008 09:44:37
Alun Alison and all the members of the TRPD circle of friends.

Your support is unprecedented! In the 14 years I have been battling to make this discovery become accepted as a scientific truth in its own right, I have not had the luxury of people as dedicated to the cause as you guys.

The Comedy film being written, which is fascinating and although complicated for someone who has never been involved in writing a script for a film, Alison is easing the process for those who might want to help in its evolution onto the big screen.

Having never considered a comedy, there is a logic in this approach that has escaped me. No barriers of cynicism and contempt can counter a British sense of humour and we do not need the stupid controls and bureaucratic idiotic bull that has been a barrier against progressing this into mainstream for so long. Far from it the comedy aspects of the film remove all barriers in one clean sweep and leave us with a blank canvas to amuse an audience while at the same time showing how this simple yet powerful therapy has transformed the health of those that who have no other motive than to improve the outcome of their often poor prognosis.

The film (working title: The Risings) stands erect as a title for this amusing romp because another beneficial effect of IBT is an increase in libido and a return of erectility to improve sexual activity even in people who have been labelled by society as being way past their sell by dates. I have also been informed that pain associated with intercourse and following intercourse in males can be excruciatingly troublesome. This problem in one case has also been resolved.

This is where the fun begins in the aptly named Risings Nursing Home. And the advice from the cinema management on the poster for this film is for people to bring their own incontinence pads to save the seats from becoming sodden with urine from agonising laughter.

It takes a touch of genius to go in the opposite direction and Alison who is dealing with Chemo therapy and breast cancer among other medical conditions somehow finds time to put herself and her own problems on the back burner and shine a light down a familiar long dark tunnel so that we can see the way forward. The Risings Film is segmented and shared out to willing writers, many who are in this just for the thrill of testing their skills of giving birth to fictional characters and introducing them to the cast list with military precision and without any alternative motive other than to see IBT deliver its predictable health improvements.   

Alun constantly informs me that his veins are improving and that he now enjoys wearing shorts instead of support stockings and trousers. He informs me that pains he has had for many years are easing and often not present for a week or more. For a 33 years young man who has hidden his legs for many years and who was seriously considering surgery based on expert opinion, who is now disproving the somewhat erroneous prognosis and is enjoying a new found freedom shown with photographic evidence must be a powerful visual  kick in the balls for those who make a huge amount of money from surgical procedures that are destined to fail because they do not address the cause of the pressure inside the varicose vein.

My own experience photographed above with an Achilles injury and bruising to the bottom of my foot. Every day my foot swells up because I am too stupid to keep off it and it becomes painful. Every night I go to bed and sleep Inclined and every morning my foot is normal size apart from the swelling in the Achilles tendons and surrounding tissue.
This flies in the face of current literature, which predicts the foot will swell more unless the leg is elevated. It does nothing of the kind and again shows consistent errors in the literature that is installed into the brains of surgeons nurses and doctors, who in turn will install it into more surgeons nurses and doctors.

This is a diabolical scandal, perpetuated by the very people who swear to do no wrong to their patients. Yet ulceration, circulatory failure, amputations and death are common place in our hospitals using this erroneous approach and something needs to be done about it sooner rather than later. The notion that if you can’t blind them with science you can baffle them with bullshit must surely fit the perpetuation of this unnecessary inhumane suffering, when simply tilting the bed can assist a speedy recovery.

In years to come the pre IBT Era will be looked upon as the dark ages in medicine, much the same as the agonising screams coming from the battlefields wounded as their limbs are amputated with no aesthetic or painkillers.

And yet many people reading this thread fail miserably to grasp the significance of these photographs and statements? Why is this? Is it because it is too simple to be true?
Is it because the discovery was made by an engineer who is not afraid to get his hands dirty rather than a qualified doctor or surgeon?

What doctor or surgeon would dare to go against his or her peers and spend 14 years of their life fighting to have these errors corrected in the literature?

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 28/08/2008 12:41:37
Effecting a change in anything takes time, Andrew, and just as folk like myself can only manage a little at a time, rather than attempting to tackle everything at once, moving a mountain, a shovelful at a time, takes time... but many shovels speed up the process!

My own doctor's paying attention now, and as I know the practice he belongs to have several doctors and often they have meetings where they discuss specific cases, I aim to ask him if he has mentioned the improvements in my condition to the others?

Yes, it's going to take time, but by quietly spreading the word about IBT from a personal perspective, and encouraging others to do the same, changes can take place in attitudes - and especially when the medical people involved can actually see and test - by way of BP improvements as well as the clear, visible signs apparent to all - it will help them to revise their text-book learned beliefs.
I am really hoping that, having had recent x-rays of the mess in my lumbar spine, in time and with only the IBT as an influencing factor, if improvements in that can be noted, that will also help to convince them of its benefits.

One thing that does slightly concern me though, is that x-rays and records relating to my back and at around the time of my original accident, do not appear to be in my medical file or even on record! That really IS strange, because those were most definitely used when I was involved in a legal claim against the builder whose negligence caused the accident.

I know that solicitors often only retain on file things for seven years after a case, so possibly they won't have the information either... I am going to try to find out, though.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 28/08/2008 13:39:30
I wanted to let you know Andrew that my neighbor Has been a timber worker for most his life and has some pretty severe back problems.. he spent a great deal of time climbing and delimbing giant Redwoods, fur etc...He has run miscelaneous machines in the woods and suffers from sleep apnea and spinal pain... A couple of months ago his doctor told him to incline his bed.. which he did .... He has enjoyed much relief from his sleep apnea and is resting quite well now. His back is feeling better but he was annoyed that he and his wife find themselves slipping off the bottom of the bed at night! They wake with their feet hanging off the bottom.. I have only just 2 days ago told her how to roll a blanket to put under her covers at the bottom to help prevent the slide and also eliminate hard pressure on their feet..

She said they will try it.. It helped in my bed to add the blanket at the bottom, so I hope it will for them also!
I felt this was encouraging news for you... Doctors here are starting to use IBT more often.. My Doctor has asked and I need to get my bed fixed and try again.... Maybe there will be more results second time round and I will notice more during the IBT then after I quit! LOL.. Thats when I realized the differences.. When I talked with Iko some time back I had really felt there had been little benefit, but after being off the bed a while I saw that I had received  more benefits but did not realize it until all these things started becoming a problem again.. LOL.. "You think wow! That hasn't happened for a long time! Whats wrong?" Then the light comes on... LOL... or the bed!!! Yikes.. best put it back up!!
Thanks Andrew from my heart to Yours!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 31/08/2008 00:30:49
Time for some stats, Andrew, although the weight one can wait! My scales are lodged in tight behind the loo and I am NOT about to risk fishing them out and kicking my back off in the process! [;D]

BP 135/78
Pulse:87;
Body Fat: 47.9%;
Body Water: 36.4%;
Body Muscle: 48.9%;
Respiration 8 per min.
Calves: Left 39.5cms; Right: 40cms.

Not perfect, but it has been one heck of a day and I've not had a chance to rest before doing the BP and heart rate. Just had to clean up after the ex's dog, who seems to think a floor cloth dropped on the floor was a hind for him to do his business on it!  [:-\]

Also, with it being only a day since the last chemo infusion, I'm back on the old IBS trip and rapid dashes to the bathroom! At least the haemorrhoids are not too bad so far... that must surely be down to IBT?

Feeling a bit queasy, but suspect the anti-sickness drugs may be as much responsible for that, than anything? I felt okay before taking the first dose of the one this morning. Might just risk trying the combination of the other two rather than including the third and see how it goes tomorrow. Sticking to a very plain diet... but I do have some lovely king prawns in the fridge that need using today... Supper, perhaps with a bit of lettuce and dressing?  [;D]

There is still some hardness noticeable to the touch in the varicose vein recently affected by the phlebitis, but that s gradually dissipating now, and not too painful, but I am still sticking with muddying my walking boots rather than wearing my wellies. I think I may need to cut the tops of those off and so that they are kept below that vein, as it is almost always that one that gets affected by the phlebitis. Either that or see if any weigh loss will bring on a further reduction in the size of my calves - mind you, I am fairly large boned and my lower legs don't look particularly fat now that the oedema isn't affecting them. In fact, I can feel the chips in the shin bones now from various riding accidents/kicks over the years!  [::)] [;)]

Got a friend to check out my monitor today and her body water was only 42.4% - I think, or maybe 42.6%?. Others have checked it too, and all between 55% and 70% - and one interesting point is that the two of us who have low body water readings have both had hysterectomies, but none of the others who tested it have. I wonder if that could be a factor?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 31/08/2008 18:40:47
Hi Old Dragon / Andrew

I have been really pleased with the way the i.b.t has helped with my knee pain, and last night i had a attack after 2 weeks of nothing.

I could not take painkillers when the pain came on, as i had been having a tipple.  I just went to my inclined bed and hoped for the best, almost 20mins after the pain was gone.

This observation was worth a note because in the past i have always had a 2nd attack that was always worse than the first, this has not happened. [;D]

It has been very humid hear, today noting 94 percent.  I am glad i got a de-humidifier, and it is certainly taking on board water aswell.

Hope you get better with your ongoing treatment Old Dragon.

Cheers Alun [8)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 01/09/2008 18:34:44
Cheers, Alun - only took the one type of anti-sickness drug prescribed again today and so far, so good. I have felt okay and not living in the wretched bathroom.

Had a problem today trying to get an appointment to see my own doctor - yet again - and until next week, but managed to keep my cool and told the receptionist I would simply write him a personal letter. That after she told me all written correspondence ended up being typed into their computer system!  [;D] One of these days I might put that to the test! The mind boggles! (Dear Doc, Sorry there's no eggs for you today but the rain's affecting the hen's desire to lay eggs... yeah, right, they'll hardly gonna add that to a medical file... or are they?)

If correspondence is just added to a file, and the doc who has asked to be kept updated isn't likely to see it until such time as he sees the writer at an appointment, what is the use or point of asking to be kept updated, for goodness sake? Why do the administrators seem to think they have the right to open mail addressed as 'personal' or 'FAO' a specific doctor?

I was actually told to put the letter INSIDE my doctor's box of eggs, that he likes when I have those available and to spare! For all I know, unless handed to him personally, anyone could get hold of any correspondence relating to my medical records - any member of the office staff or even a patient who fancies filching a box of fresh eggs!

Apart from that, I had hoped that I could see him and just get a quick opinion on the remaining evidence of that phlebitis in the vv by my right knee. I guess I'll just have to phone him and ask, but then how's he going to know just how much or little evidence of it there is remaining? How am I supposed to know if the blood clots/residue still poses a threat of thrombosis? I don't know! Next week it might be too late, if so and I stop using the medication! Err on the side of caution, and I'm possibly using a medication unnecessarily...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 03/09/2008 03:09:40
Forgot to tell you something, Andrew... it's in the other thread re. 'Can I donate my still living body...' [;D]

Don't forget to send me that letter we spoke of, will you? [:D]

... Must make an appointment soon to see my optician...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/09/2008 09:30:18

Hi Karen

Thank you, for your post about your neighbours sleep apnoea and spinal pain.

I have heard of a few doctors who are recommending Inclined Bed Therapy, including a director of a chain of spinal injury rehabilitation centres in the USA.

To prevent slipping place an extra blanket or quilt under the bottom sheet. This does the trick.

Wish more doctors over here were interested in this simple therapy.

Hope you have managed to get your bed altered again as I feel IBT has a lot to offer you in the long term.

It is very common to forget past troubles with medical conditions. People generally don’t complain about feeling well. Your reverting back to sleeping flat and noticing changes has highlighted some of the benefits of IBT that you may have missed otherwise.

Hope to see some updates from you soon.

regards

Andrew


I wanted to let you know Andrew that my neighbor Has been a timber worker for most his life and has some pretty severe back problems.. he spent a great deal of time climbing and delimbing giant Redwoods, fur etc...He has run miscelaneous machines in the woods and suffers from sleep apnea and spinal pain... A couple of months ago his doctor told him to incline his bed.. which he did .... He has enjoyed much relief from his sleep apnea and is resting quite well now. His back is feeling better but he was annoyed that he and his wife find themselves slipping off the bottom of the bed at night! They wake with their feet hanging off the bottom.. I have only just 2 days ago told her how to roll a blanket to put under her covers at the bottom to help prevent the slide and also eliminate hard pressure on their feet..

She said they will try it.. It helped in my bed to add the blanket at the bottom, so I hope it will for them also!
I felt this was encouraging news for you... Doctors here are starting to use IBT more often.. My Doctor has asked and I need to get my bed fixed and try again.... Maybe there will be more results second time round and I will notice more during the IBT then after I quit! LOL.. Thats when I realized the differences.. When I talked with Iko some time back I had really felt there had been little benefit, but after being off the bed a while I saw that I had received  more benefits but did not realize it until all these things started becoming a problem again.. LOL.. "You think wow! That hasn't happened for a long time! Whats wrong?" Then the light comes on... LOL... or the bed!!! Yikes.. best put it back up!!
Thanks Andrew from my heart to Yours!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/09/2008 09:45:41
The post Old Dragon refered to:Sorry for copying it to this thread but it shows again that more and more doctors are begining to take Inclined Bed Therapy at face value.

This is great news from Karen and OD. Alun is also going to see his vascular consultant and doctor to show the improvements so hopefully we may have some more professional interest soon.
Quote

I managed to see my doc today, despite the raptor receptionist who refused me an appointment until next week - when, incidentally, my doctor is on leave! (One of these days I really will write a letter of complaint about that woman!)

I'd actually written a letter to my doctor, and took it up to the local surgery, where the receptionist there is lovely and the daughter of a friend. She took my letter straight through, along with the eggs for the doctor that he likes, and it seemed he wanted to see me! Felt bad, as I was queue-jumped straight in but could easily have waited.

Whatever, he wanted just to check me for signs of dehydration, because I'd mentioned in the letter about the low body water percentage, and he was satisfied I was okay that way. The other thing that being on the IBT trial and with people following my case study there had been suggesting - no, insisting - that I spoke to my doctor about was the possibility that I have arachnoiditis? I'd dismissed that originally, as I've not had spinal surgery or an epidural, which is what some were asking me about, or directing me to websites that were dealing with that aspect.

BINGO! The doctor only had to look back through my medical file and to see for himself what various other doctors in the practice had recorded over the years, and the symptoms I'd presented with, to realise that the medical research and qualified people on here were very probably correct.

We had a little chat about it, but I was able to say that, for now, and with the history that I have of these symptoms, even though it is incurable, at least I feel that between us we have the measure of it as it affects me, and it's under control. At least with that diagnosis now on my records, it may make any surgeons, or 'Dr. Gods' I might encounter later on, pay attention and listen to me when I tell them my back's a bigger concern to me than the cancer!

Had a long chat on the phone tonight with Andrew, which was nice, although he probably thinks I burned his ears a bit on a few things   Aim to pass on some more stuff of Andrew's to my doctor, who seems to have certainly eaten his words now about my oedema getting worse on IBT!  He's really amazed how much it's helping me and has seen the evidence in front of him, along with the records of my stats to back it all up. I don't think he has ever been able to actually SEE the bones in my legs before, but now I can even feel the old chip's and injury sites on my shin bones and from riding accidents I've had (kicks and various collisions with jumps/fences etc) that date back to my teens! 

One more thing that I have noticed, and was told that IBT can help - my eyesight seems to be improving! Yes, really! Weird as it sounds, I was borderline for needing glasses to drive with last year when tested, but couldn't see the instrument panel dials well enough to read them clearly, as I'm very long sighted. Today, my specs kept steaming up with all the rain, and when I drove from the fields and seeing to the horses up to the doctor's, I took the specs off and suddenly realised I could read the numbers on my speedo!

Whatever, despite having had it confirmed about the arachnoiditis, I feel really good at the moment. Nothing's really changed, anyway regarding the back, and because I've lived with it for years anyway, so there's no point getting down on that score. Better, surely, to look at the positives that can result from the diagnosis, and all the other things that I feel are coming along better.
[/size]
I suspect there are more people trying this for varicose veins and oedema and if you are one of them please post your experiences using IBT.

Andrew



Forgot to tell you something, Andrew... it's in the other thread re. 'Can I donate my still living body...' [;D]

Don't forget to send me that letter we spoke of, will you? [:D]

... Must make an appointment soon to see my optician...

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/09/2008 09:50:51
Ruby Tate appeared on Local Television News to share her story with her partner Harry. I may still have the video somewhere though means wading through lots of tapes. Anyway, note the similarities between the new reports and this older report, which incidentally was shared on the Internet several years ago and should be easy to locate in the carecure forum to confirm this.

Quote
Ruby, 2nd April 98

Over two years ago I sat in the armchair reading a small advert which asked people to raise their bed by six inches at the head and to reply and tell what benefits had been noted. (No explanation was given)
At the time I could not move my neck to my left or right side and it ached continuously. I was unable to sleep at night as i could not get comfortable. I was only able to turn by gently easing myself. It took about three to four turns. Getting out of bed was a major obstacle. I needed help to dress and undress.

I spent most of my nights in the chair with the result that I was always tired and had no energy.

My problem is osteoporosis of the upper and lower spine. I had tried hormone replacement therapy and wasted a small fortune with bone speacialists and ostopaths.

I was resigned to living my days out as best I could, having been told that there was nothing more that could be done for me.

I expected nothing but had nothing to lose, so Harry raised the bed by six inches. We did not take it very seriously but were happy to try anything.

On the fourth night I had the first full nights sleep since I don't remember when. By the end of the week I was sleeping naturally and turning over with ease. My dressing was a problem no longer, each day it became easier. I was able to turn my head without pain, right or left, to see the clock without getting up from my chair.

There have been many other benefits too. I have worn glasses from the age of seven years and I am now sixty eight years. Last year was the first time I was told that there was a small improvement.
My hair appears thicker, my hair brush needs cleaning less often.

Harry had a large suptuating scar since he was six years old. He has had to continually dress it all of his life. But now it has healed up. His ear which constantly gave him trouble wityh a discharge has now cleared up completely.

We both feel that the clock has been put back for us! I give thanks for this invention and wish Andrew every success in the future for the benefits he has given us and will continue to do so.

Yours truly,

Ruby


This letter was sent to me in the knowledge that it would be used to help others to follow. Ruby to this day enjoys the continued benefits of this simple intervention.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 05/09/2008 17:49:11
Well, after getting soaked to the skin today and sinking into a foot of mud and slurry, and whilst only daring to wear my walking boots rather than wellies after that latest, nasty bout of phlebitis, I am about to take a pair of strong, sharp scissors to my wellies! Am aiming to cut away the area that causes direct pressure on the varicose vein that is regularly affected by phlebitis. Although that has almost recovered now, there are still a few hard, lumpy areas present to the touch, and I don't want to cause it to be kicked off again.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 07/09/2008 13:29:39
Andrew, I posted the following on a Welsh forum that I belong to, please let me know if I have missed anything out, as someone there asked me what IBT stood for because I'd mentioned it in a post and in passing...

Quote
Original question: What's IBT, never heard of the abbreviation ???'

IBT stands for Inclined Bed Therapy. It was discovered by medical researcher and engineer, Andrew K Fletcher and back in the 1990s. However, his idea was dismissed simply because it appears to fly in the face of the previous beliefs on the part of the medical text books about how the circulatory system works. Andrew discovered that, instead of the heart being solely responsible for pumping our blood around the system, gravity also played a vital part, and especially in removing toxins and solutes from the blood, and removing these from the body via the kidneys and urine.

For a long time, I have had problems with varicose veins and oedema, and periodic bouts of phlebitis, so when, a few months ago, I discovered a study was being done on The Naked Scientists forum - see this link: Varicose Veins & IBT Study - I followed some of the links shown there, and realised that this could also help a long term back problem that I have, and other conditions, too.

Andrew agreed that I could join in the study group, and I spoke with my doctor about it too. My doctor said he couldn't see any reason why I shouldn't join in, but to expect my oedema and varicose veins to get worse! This because instead of raising the legs, one sleeps at a 5 degree angle and with the legs lower than the head. Well, he was astonished to see the difference himself, because my oedema disappeared within days! My calves were measured prior to commencing IBT and after, and they reduced in size by as much as 5cms - about 2.5"!

I also started to get decent quality, restorative sleep almost immediately, which is something I've not experienced for years! Indeed, due to my back problem, and a natural chemical reaction that it seems to cause when flaring, very often I would go for days or even weeks at a time without any sleep at all, or just brief periods of dozing, and when in a sitting position, because often the back would not even allow me to assume a prone position.

Other benefits include a lowering of blood pressure - and a friend (aged 58 and in Wales) who was recently told by his doctor that his BP was so dangerously high that he could die at any moment, commenced IBT and with almost immediate benefits! His BP, and without medication, has now reduced consistently to a range between 130/75 and 120/70, and sometimes as low as 110/65! His doctor was stunned by this result!

Now that I have been doing IBT for a couple of months, I am beginning to notice improvements in my back problem. This I was told likely wouldn't be noticeable for four to eight months, and mainly because there are two conditions that affect my spine. In the lumbar region, I have osteoarthritis, and there I have noticed a lessening of the pain in that region. In fact, sometimes I realise I don't even have that dull ache that never seemed to go away at all! Higher up, and in the thoracic region, I've been affected by periods of severe inflammation and pain, including severe muscle spasms (like electric shocks) that can sometimes have a paralysing effect and make breathing difficult and also affects the use of my hands and arms. After many years, that has finally been diagnosed as arachnoiditis, and after those medically qualified people following the IBT trial recognised the symptoms and alerted me to mention it to my doctor, when all the pointers over the years suddenly fell into place! Whatever, there has definitely been a lessening of the incidents of inflammation and therefore muscle spasms and their strength since commencing IBT. (Also my need to take medication to address thesee!) I have also started to lose some weight at last, and had been really struggling to do that for years, and largely because I wasn't able to exercise much at all - and now I can (to some degree) and without aggravating the back!

There are lots of conditions that IBT can help to improve, and quality of life is not the least amongst them! The best of it is, it is virtually free! Raising the head end of the bed just 6" can be achieved with a couple of breeze blocks - even recycled ones! In my case, and because of the type of legs on my bed-settee, I chose to have wooden blocks made with a hollowed out section in them that would hold the bed's legs securely in place, and those cost me just £30! A price well worth paying for the improvement in my sleep quality alone, and because now I have energy again, and feel really quite well! (This even despite undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer during much of the time I've been doing the IBT trial!)

If you think it could help you, why not just try it? Beg a couple of old breeze blocks from a builder, wrap them in old towels to protect you carpet or flooring, and raise the HEAD end of your bed by 6". Do make sure that you drink plenty of fluids too, and so that you don't become dehydrated as the solutes and toxins are removed from your body. IBT provides quite a powerful detox to the system and you may well find yourself popping to the bathroom on a more regular basis. If you find yourself slipping down the bed a bit, wrap an extra duvet around the mattress and under the sheet to provide some extra comfort and friction, also don't sleep in pants that could cut into the groin a bit, and do remove any footboard from the bed to avoid pressure on the feet. You can always add a throw over the end of the bed to keep your feet warm if the poke out a bit, but one thing I have really noticed, is that my previously cold feet (due to poor circulation) are now like toast!

There are a huge number of medical conditions that can benefit from IBT, including heart conditions, sleep apnoea, breathing problems, spinal problems, arthritis, MS, circulatory problems, skin conditions, and so on.

So far the only person amongst those friends whom I've recommended it to to complain about its benefits, is a chap who has suddenly started getting early morning erections on a regular basis, and after years of having a problem in that department!  Others that have discovered this same thing don't see to consider it a problem at all - at least, not one they cannot deal with!  In fact, it's been quite a handy thing when it comes to couples where the wife may have had leg problems and the husband being reluctant to raise their bed just for his wife's benefit! Fit people trying it, have noticed that they wake feeling more refreshed and energetic, and young, fit couples, tell me that yes, it does seem to improve their love lives too! (Well, haven't the Welsh always been a pasionate race?  [;)] )

If you think there's anything that I might need to add, or have missed out anything important, please let me know, thanks.  [:)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 09/09/2008 15:05:46
Hi Old Dragon

I must say, i am impressed with your write up on i.b.t. (Hope Andrew thinks the same.)

Well when i read the bit about wearing tight clothes in the groin area, i can not stress that i have had probs from this.

Please learn by my mistake, as this was pointed out at the start by andrew. I had complained of a blow-out in the groin area, which i thought was a lymph node swelling.  Anyway i talked to andrew and he mentioned that i may be experiencing a night wedge effect,that could have also been causing the blow out aswell.

Now i did take this on board, but made the mistake of accessing my activite in bed when i was awake.

I feel a bit silly now, as i was experiencing a discomfort in that area which would sometimes be a problem and other times it was not.

This looking back was due to my positioning in bed not always being the same.

I am so glad that the penny dropped and i rectified this problem.  Within the first night of doing commando, i am not getting this discomfort and hope to see the blow out at the top of my leg decrease now.

Sometimes new things can be misunderstood, but i am glad i relised whot was happening. and am now feeling much better.

(How i thought i could access the activities of my sleeping position when i was awake, i do not know  LOL)

(Feeling slightly silly) alun
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: geordiejulie on 01/10/2008 22:50:03
Hi Andrew,

I am Aluns wife (I must have sinned in a previous life!)
I have recently started on IBT and just wanted to post a few of the observations I have made over the past three weeks.
Firstly I have to say that if anyone was a cynic to this process it would have been me, like a lot of people we are all programmed like robots to believe that whatever a medical professional tells us must be right, so the idea that you should sleep inclined in the opposite direction to that which is conventional was a mystery to me.  Alun began this process about 3 months ago and I have closely watched his progress.  I have to say that the bed looked very uncomfortable but he stuck with it and has gained so much from this process.  I have seen him gain confidence, a definate improvement in his varicose veins but above all he no longer has constant pains in his legs and this is something that has bothered him for some 30 years.
It was this that persuaded me to give it a go. 

I am fortunate to have little medical problems but a brief description would be;

Asthma
Lower back pain
Pain in left hip on walking distance
Disturbed sleep patterns
Some spider veins

Now out of these the lower back pain has got to be the worst. In 2005 we purchased a very good quality bed, our excuse was 'look after your back you spend a lot of time in bed'
Well the back pain began and has continued everynight since. 

Since beginning the IBT I have to say, and this is an honest evaluation, I have slept like a baby, it is complete bliss and definately not uncomfortable. 
I wake up pain free almost every morning and this is a huge improvement. I used to hold back from drinking before bed because I knew I would definately be up during the night, now this is not the case.  I can drink as much as I like and not wake up. 

I am drinking a lot more, sometimes 3 litres of liquid(not tea or coffee) in a day. 
I still get the pain in hips on walking a distance but I genuinely dont suffer for 2-3 days afterwards as I used to.
I definately feel more energetic.
I have not noticed a significant difference in my asthma yet but this is difficult as it is worse during summer months or when I have a cold.

In the first few days I had really bad heads and spots and I can only assume that these symptoms were caused by the amount of toxins that were being flushed from my body at that time.  The odd morning I will wake up with a headache that is similar to that you would have after a real good night out.  On these mornings I know that I must drink alot more and this clears.
I have felt tingles/nerve flutters in my legs and sometimes hands, more in the first week, but still occasionally.
My period normally follows the same pattern, though not always regular. As well as the usuall mood swings etc, I will have back ache for a couple of days before hand and restless sleep, stomach ache for the first day, then I will have a headache for a day or so after the end of my period. This last one though came without any warning, and this is something that has only ever happened on one other occasion. Dont know at the minute whether this is good or not. 
I have not noticed any significant change with the spider veins but I know it is early days and to me this is not that important.

Overall, I can honestly say I feel alot healthier,  I have more energy,  I sleep so much better and dont regret it at all. I would definately reccomend it and urge people to try it. I am amazed that simply adjusting the angle of your bed can make such a difference.

Thanks Andrew!

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Tezzab4 on 02/10/2008 14:45:40
I hope I'm not too late to join this study as well.  I have varicose veins and was looking up natural alternatives to the conventional therapies as I would rather fix the parts in my body than just remove them and still be none the wiser.  Anyhow I came across Andrew Fletcher's ideas and am willing to try them out and document my experiment if it could help anyone else.  I have already seen a specialist about getting the veins removed but especially after already having an operation in my teens am a little wary about removing any more "redundant" body parts.  It's getting late now so I'll join in the discussion when I'm more alert. 

Before I go should I use any natural herbal medicines like Horse chestnut or should I refrain for the length of the study as this could compromise the results?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/10/2008 23:36:37
Tezzab4

Thank you and “your not too late” to join the study, in fact we need quite a few more people to join us to confirm these results. Finding people willing to try this is painfully slow unfortunately, but with a little perseverance we should get there in the end.

If you could share photographs of your veins before using IBT, using photobucket or another online host to link the pictures to the thread so we can see any changes as and when they take place by comparing before and after pictures as Alun has shown it would be very helpful.

If you have edema / oedema then some measurements of your legs would prove useful to determine if this improves using IBT or not.

Heart rate blood pressure, respiration rate would be great too if possible. Maybe your doctor could measure these and give you the results?

If you have any other problems you feel may be worth monitoring, please make a list and give a brief description, for example: You may snore, have sleep problems, cold feet and hands in bed, laboured respiration, sinus problems, anything that is troubling you make a note so that we have a bench mark before you begin.

RE: Herbal remedies. You could include how long you have been taking them or using them on the skin and add a note about whether they have worked or are working so that they can be taken into account if you feel you want to continue using them.

Glad you have found our study

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 03/10/2008 18:59:24
geordiejulie

Thank you for your post relating to your own observations and your observations with Alun's legs, pain and general well-being.

All of the conditions you list have been reported to improve by other people over the years, so we can confidently predict that most of these should resolve in due course.

It was also interesting that you should notice changes in your monthly cycle, and I suspect this will continue.

Your post was a breath of fresh air for our study and is indicative that we are going to see many more changes that echo those from pilot studies into various conditions.

Your observation with tingling nerves is also interesting and reminds me of my many years of research and study into neurological conditions, including multiple sclerosis, spinal cord injury and Parkinson’s disease. These tingling pains were usually a precursor to significant recovery from neurological losses. Increase spasm was another indicator in these conditions. That’s another avenue for research later.

Keeping the study simple is difficult when so many important changes are taking place, it becomes difficult not to thunder off in another direction just to feed a hungry mind.

I have a feeling we are in for some real surprises over the coming months, providing we can find more people to join our study of course.

Please keep making notes and dating any observations as and when they happen and please come back and let us know about any changes you observe.

Some things to watch out for.

Changes in finger nails, half moons, quality, strength, shine, and general health in the nails. Changes in hair colour thickness, strength, body. Changes in your face even so taking a few pictures and comparing them to older pictures may reveal improvements in skin tone and muscle tone.

Do your hands and feet feel warmer now your bed is tilted? Do you feel less cold in bed?

Hangover is a good one, though not for one minute you put this to the test. Myself and others have reported that hangovers are not as troublesome on IBT.

Andrew

PS have updated the first post in this thread to include research from NASA




Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Tezzab4 on 04/10/2008 05:21:09
Right I'm back.  I'm going to display 3 pics.  2 of my left leg which appears to be much worse than my right and 1 a brown patch on my right in the front of my calf which has not disappeared.  This is indicative (IMO) of the brown staining that often occurs with varicose veins but may not be so evident from the photo but if u look closely u can see on the left leg it's browner the closer u get to the ankle.

Unfortunately these are actually after 3 nights of IBT as I didn't realise a study was still going as I was still scouting info on net when I started.  I have only raised the bed 4 inches so far but I will raise it a further couple of inches today. 

My calves have a circumference of 465 mm L & 467 mm R.

I have had my veins stripped when I was about 17 so I don't know how this will affect anything.  I won't use any herbal supplements for 4 weeks at least and haven't been using any for at least a month.   

Andrew I have read recently about ppl adding salt and minerals to their water which had gone through a reverse osmosis system and one saying that their vv have improved as a result.  Is salt good or bad for the circulation and do you have suggestions on the amounts. I remember reading something about the water cure where they add salt to their water as well.

Can you actually blow veins out through excessive intra-abdominal pressure because I am sure I've done it through lifting weights?

thank you,
Tezza

(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp196/Tezzab4/LLegBack4-10-08.jpg) (http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp196/Tezzab4/LSLeg4-10-08.jpg) (http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp196/Tezzab4/RFLeg4-10-08.jpg)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/10/2008 09:47:44
Tezza

Great job of the pictures. These will prove useful in a few weeks time for comparison. 3 days of IBT at a lower angle of elevation should not have changed the appearance of the veins that much.
You are obviously the best judge of this.

Calf measurements good move also, though looking at your photographs you don’t appear to have oedema so the measurements won’t change as much as a person with oedema, but should prove interesting.

The surgery you had at 17 did it improve the outcome for you?

And did the herbal remedies you were taking have any affect?

Dissolved salts and sugars according to this new theory on circulation is what drives it and maintains the body. Modern diets often have excessive salt in them already, usually sodium chloride. Substituting the type of salt you use may improve your health.

We drink filtered rainwater now at home, apart from tasting like water should taste, it has very little (if any) mineral dissolved in it and as a result should act as a blood thinner over time without using any medication. Distilled water in desert countries has this effect on the blood.

Drinking more water would be a smart move on IBT as the angled bed does cause more solute to enter the bladder via the improved renal filtration, causing a detox from the blood.

RE venous Blowouts: It is highly probable that this may have happened. Alun reported a blowout observation that we now think was caused by his use of a support stocking and possibly aggravated by wearing under pants on an inclined bed as they pulled up into the groin area. Something others have noticed.

I had a blowout haemorrhoid while stupidly lifting a commercial sunbed down a flight of stairs with me at the top and two people at the bottom. My legs were spread wide due to the huge sunbed and I felt the vein blow out leaving me with an unpleasant bulge in the worst place you could get one. Thankfully this presents no problem for me any more.  Your question re blowouts is a valid point.

Could you take some higher res pictures also?

Thanks Tezza
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Tezzab4 on 04/10/2008 15:10:10
Andrew,

Thanks for your reply.  I would have liked to have taken the pics at the start obviously as I feel that my legs are less tired and achy as they usually are (even after 3 days) and any swelling that I may have had may have gone down.  The leg with the most veins does not have the extent of discolouration that the other one does which I think is caused by leakage from the veins.   

The surgery was for the most part successful in that the veins I did have were more bulbous and torturous and they did go for the most part.  After I got married I put on weight which probably affected their reappearance and I around 1996 noticed the staining of my calves more so on the right leg. 

I don't look at my legs much so I can't really tell from appearance whether horse chestnut helped and did no measurements but I did notice my legs were no longer as tired and sore.  I have heard that there might be some side affects to horse chestnut so sometimes I switch it with Paroven.  Usually I take nothing as I am concerned about side affects and haven't really gotten into the habit of taking them although at one time I did for about 8 wks.

The blowout occurred after I was deadlifting about 120 kg.  I felt something and looked down to where I felt something and saw the "blowout" which is that vein spider vein thing just in the inside of my leg above the knee.  I did lift heavier weights a few years earlier so it might have been because I hadn't done any exercise for a while.  It might be better to only train one limb at a time to get around this limitation of increased intra-abdominal pressure.     

I still have the higher resolution pics but thought they would be too big to post them here.  I'm not really familiar with linking them either as I've seen some people do.  I'll have to play around with this forum posting options and will include them when I post some more pics in a weeks time. 

What is your opinion on the best exercise for varicose veins?  Would it be walking?  Some ppl have suggested that their veins become more engorged after exercise. 

cheers,
Tezza
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/10/2008 17:18:42
Best exercise for varicose veins could be sleeping on an inclined bed, Exercising on an inclined bed even better! Making sure you don’t sit on cold hard surfaces, including the loo seat for too long as this restricts the size of the veins causing them to inflate more. (Odd how old wives tails have merit) Cycling, not sure about as constant pressure on saddle may exacerbate the veins, though this is an assumption on my part has having no evidence to support this.

Walking gets a big thumbs up! Though standing in one position for a long time could also cause the veins to swell due again to restricting vessels on the bottom of the foot. This also explains why people pass out while standing in cues, on guard duty, at weddings and funerals. Often portrayed as amusing there is I am sure a connection between this and stroke, maybe a precursor warning someone of their blood pressure problem?

Thinking about your mentioning of drinking reverse osmosis water. It could be beneficial having less solutes in the blood as this would make the blood more aggressive at dissolving / absorbing arterial deposits. Also thinner blood should reduce pressure inside the veins and areteries.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/10/2008 11:09:40
Re: Inclined sleep
From: Brenda and Dick
Sent:
10 October 2008 00:13:34
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

Feel free to post my previous notes from June.
We are still happily using IBT to control my GERD-related night-time cough and recurrent sinusitis, both of which completely disappeared with the use of the inclined bed. (although I have had to remain on Nexium for daytime GERD symptoms.) Both of us are 67 and we do not have  varicose veins or leg swelling problems; that may be due to the IBT, who knows? I lower the bed when I change the bedding, and if I forget to raise it before bedtime, we notice the difference immediately. We definitely sleep better the inclined way. Thanks, Andrew. Brenda

Inclined sleep
From: Brenda and Dick

Sent:
07 June 2006 16:03:46
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

    You, my dear, have done a very good thing in sharing your inclined sleep theory on the world-side web.  It inspired me to seek a good solution to trying your suggestions. 
    Six nights sleeping on the inclined bed at about 4" & it is absolutely amazing.  I am sleeping much more soundly & longer each night. Previously, I slept 3-5 hours max, but I am routinely sleeping 7-9 hours.  I can't even begin to explain why!  Most  of the symptoms & pain related to my GERD have gone away; I am still taking the Nexium and will continue it for a few weeks before doing a trial without.  I wake up with no aching joints, no stiff neck, and warm feet - for the first time in my 65 years of adult life.   In addition, the night time swelling in my husband's feet and legs has improved dramatically. 
       I am encouraging my son and daughter-in-law to replace their own bedslats, since she suffers from untreated sleep apnea, as well as spinal compression problems. They will have to delay the purchase a bit as my son is undergoing extensive surgery next week and I think he would have difficulty getting on and off the bed post-operatively. But maybe in a few months...
    Again, thank you, thank you  for the creative and original thinking and may your study be remarkable!  Brenda Parker


Re: RE: How is the inclined sleep study going?
 
Sent:
06 June 2006 12:26:54
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

Cc:

Yes, we are interested in participating in your study, although we are not dealing with any spinal cord disease.   The conditions for which we are seeking relief by using the inclined sleep are sleep apnea, reflux disease and associated medical complications, including early lung changes.
 After only 5 nights using the inclined sleep, there is dramatic improvement in both of those conditions; we will be interested to see if this continues. 
We are strongly encouraging our 30 year old daughter who has MS to try the therapy.
Thanks for your intriguing theory & project. Brenda
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Tezzab4 on 14/10/2008 14:53:37
I took some photo's in the weekend but with much different lighting conditions and the angles are different so with such small and subtle differences which I would expect it would be hard to compare.  Tomorrow I will take photos inside and try to take them from the same angle and distance as to make better comparisons.

I will say that the tiredness and soreness that normally occurs at the end of the day is much reduced so much so that on a day when I am not working (standing for the most part) I can hardly notice it at all and those days that I am working it is lessened considerably.

I wonder if anyone knows what is the best way to sit at the computer.  Right now I am resting my legs on about a 20 degree slope on an exercise ball.  Is this any good?

Does increasing the lung capacity have a significant increase on circulation because there is more surface area to help with the evaporation?

There seems to be exercise which lowers blood pressure mainly aerobic and then there is exercise like heavy weight lifting which seems to increase blood pressue.  I recall reading something about how the 2 types of exercise affect intra-occular eye pressure.  Ok I've just come across some info on how the Valsalva effect might be the reason why blood pressure increases.  I think I will need to read up more on it.

CIAO,
Tezza   
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 14/10/2008 16:16:18
Alun

Your photographs prove beyond any shadow of doubt that IBT reduces venous pressure causing the veins to normalise in size. They are indeed truly remarkable photographs, considering that doctors and surgeons believe that raising the head end of the bed will cause the blood to pool and the veins to swell leading to oedema.

I have waited a long time to find a way of showing this effect while remaining on the inclined bed, not having varicose veins myself it has been difficult to find people who will provide photographic evidence.

If we compare your recent photographs with the first photograph you took prior to tilting your bed we can see a phenomenal difference in the varicose veins.

So if you can select the edit tab to your post and add the first photograph for comparison it will leave people in no doubt as to the efficacy of IBT for this condition.

Your knee pain and varicose vein pains are now as you state, have greatly improved, less painful and considerably less frequent than before, again indicating that there may be more to IBT than one would realise in a VV study.

As the veins remain relaxed and normalised over night, the veins should contract and resist internal pressures more. This is a gradual process and may take many more months in your case due to the severity of the swelling in the veins, before they sink to skin level completely.

You mentioned this is happening with the varicose blow out from the vein in your groin and that it has changed, becoming far less obvious now. Again great news Alun, thank you for mentioning this in our chat on MSN.

There are doctors and surgeons monitoring this thread. Would it be possible to get some comments from you?

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 14/10/2008 16:27:09
Tezza

Thats good news about your tiredness and discomfort. This should improve more over the next 2 weeks.

Can't wait for the photographs too.

Re Sitting posture: Bottoms up is the way to go. Phrase coined by John Simkins formerly manager of the MSRC charity. It means making sure at all times your bottom is higher than your knees and that your legs slope down most of the time.

There are wedge cushions available from Ebay and other suppliers for next to no money. Sitting on one now :)

Alun has just ordered one. These are good for driving long distances too and more to the point, we now understand why people find them so comfortable.

IBT causes the lungs to inflate and therefore deflate more, as you say this increases the capacity of the lungs so would increase the gas exchange too and therefore would definitely increase circulation so long as our circulation is aligned to the direction of gravity.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 14/10/2008 18:17:23
Hi Andrew

I will add the photo that i took before ibt, but they where taken when i was standing up. will that be alright to compare with the vv photo's when lieing down on i.b.t.

Sorry, just wanted to give the right results over.

I am still getting the knee pain (but only occasionally), but andrew if you compare 1-2 a fortnight compared to whot was 6-8 times a fortnight. as a example, the road to fully sorting out the problem is near.

And as i mentioned on a previous thread, i went on a 10.5 mile hike and did not get a sign of the pain till 5 days after.

Tezza
You have the right idea about photos, and picking the right light to compare. It is great you are now on i.b.t

alun006

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/10/2008 09:10:43
The idea of showing the photograph standing and laying on an inclined bed is so people looking to the IBT photographs can easily understand how tilting the bed so that the feet are lower than the head produces more beneficial results than standing. The picture also shows that the current accepted literature predictions on what according to doctors, nurses and surgeons believe will happen is completely wrong!

There is no pooling, No swollen veins, No decrease in circulation, The heart does not have to work harder and works at a decreased rate than when on a flat bed.

It was very important to obtain these photographs in order to prove this to those that think this therapy is too simple it can’t possibly have an affect.

Showing your legs before you tilted the bed also allows people to determine the differences between standing and sleeping on IBT.

Thanks for correcting me on the knee pain being still a problem but less frequent and less painful , I have altered my post to state this correctly

Thanks again Alun
Hi Andrew

I will add the photo that i took before ibt, but they where taken when i was standing up. will that be alright to compare with the vv photo's when lieing down on i.b.t.

Sorry, just wanted to give the right results over.

I am still getting the knee pain (but only occasionally), but andrew if you compare 1-2 a fortnight compared to whot was 6-8 times a fortnight. as a example, the road to fully sorting out the problem is near.

And as i mentioned on a previous thread, i went on a 10.5 mile hike and did not get a sign of the pain till 5 days after.

Tezza
You have the right idea about photos, and picking the right light to compare. It is great you are now on i.b.t

alun006


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 20/11/2008 16:16:01
Alun

Thanks for the photographs. We were waiting for reports from other people trying this method. I know there are others and we would all find it useful if you could share your own experiences with the forum. Even better if you can add a few photographs of before and after IBT.

If you are reading this thread and decide to try it please take some photographs of your varicose veins and / or oedema before you go ahead so that comparisons can be made over time.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 27/11/2008 09:52:09
Hi Andrew

I have been experiencing some pain, on the back of my thigh recently. It was thought to be The fact i have been getting anxious about the business and other matters at the moment, and this was causing me to tighten the muscles on the back of my thigh, as well as in the groin area.

I also mentioned the lump bulge near my groin, that had decreased from popping out the skin, but could still be felt.

I was examend by the doctor, in the areas i have pointed out above.

The doctor said he would send me for a ultra sound, just to be on the safe side.

I went to the ultra sound expecting everything to be pretty straight forward, he examined my groin and inguinal area, then ask about the bulge on my right hand side, and started to examine this with the ultra sound tool.

I ask him if everything was alright. When he looked at the screen, he said that it looked like i had a aneurysm in that area.   immediately i felt concerned, and asked him about it.  Nothing much more was said, except that normally drug users get them in that area, at my age when they inject themselves. I was told that it was nothing to worry about, and to make a appointment with my GP for the results.

Now i have never been involved with drug injecting activity before, i am not the age that this normally happens to.   To say i am worried is a under estimation.

I wanted to know if you could give any comment on whot has happened here, should i be so worried.  I just wanted a bit support, and in site into whot is happening with my vein.

Many Thanks alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 27/11/2008 19:27:05
High Blood pressure could make it worse.. so watch your blood pressure and do see the doctor.. The wall of the artery is thin in that location and the pressure of your blood has increased in that area where your artery has become thin and distended,, this can make it weak when the blood pressure is high.. at least thats how the doctor explained my aneurysms to me. I have two in my Aorta both ascending and descending sides ... Large one in the descending side fixing to have to be repaired...

Technicians cannot confirm or elaborate your Doctor will need to do that to confirm diagnosis. Be calm... my doctor said no lifting.. and such to bring pressure up.. your doctor will elaborate for you it may be different procedures with a leg!

Although he did say that it is an inherited trait.. some families carry.. ( Aneurysms that is.. arteries that have thin spots in the walls can develop these aneurysms when Blood pressure gets to high over long periods of time...

I have never used drugs and am 48 years old too.. so am in the same boat.. but I do of congenital heart problems etc... so Blood pressure these days is a problem.. See the doctor and be calm it is definitely an understatement and I know exactly how you feel!

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 28/11/2008 12:37:48
Karen W

Thankyou for your support.

The confirmation will come on wednesday, if it is a aneurysm.  However, i wanted to ask? does your bulge have a pulse, as i have not found this on mine.

P.S
Karen, can i also ask if you are still on i.b.t and is it helping with your health.

Thanks alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 05/12/2008 11:42:21
As I said in out MSN conversation, a pulse should be noticed on examination if it is an arterial bulge or (arterial aneurysm) It should also be firmer than a venous bulge or (blow out) according to the video shown on the link in the first post on this thread. The couch reflex is another indication that this may be a venous blow out / aneurysm, again die to the very soft collapsible nature of the bulge and that the bulge is improving and remaining flat for prolonged periods indicates it is more like a varicose vein than an arterial bulge. We will have to wait and hear the results from the ultrasound to confirm this.

Great news that the problem appears to be resolving itself on Inclined Bed Therapy and that it is level with the skin more than it is raised above the skin as was the case when you first noticed it.

If the problem was worsening rather than improving cause for concern might be in order.

Surgical repair should not become necessary if it is a vein you are observing.
 
Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 10/12/2008 11:26:26
Hi Andrew

It is good to be able to tell you that the bulge in the groin has been described as a anuryseum in the vein ( a bulge in the vein), which means it is not a artery anuryseum bulge problem.

The Doctor has ask me to see a specialist, as he would like to know how this has happened in that area. and the fact it is a vein bulge.

Your advice and support is appreciated, You were spot on with whot you thought about the vein.

I am now hoping that more people will help you with this important study, so instead of them just reading about this amazingly simple therapy and deciding to go try it, they will help by coming back to the study thread and report their findings.

Thankyou alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 10/12/2008 11:59:58
Karen W

Thankyou for your support.

The confirmation will come on wednesday, if it is a aneurysm.  However, i wanted to ask? does your bulge have a pulse, as i have not found this on mine.

P.S
Karen, can i also ask if you are still on i.b.t and is it helping with your health.

Thanks alun006
Hi Alun,

Your Welcome...hope all goes well for you!

My varicose vein bulge has no pulse..... but my Aneurysms are located in the Ascending Aorta.. and one in the Descendining side also.. I can somewhat feel the area onascending side more because it hurts at times and I have found my chest is very tender over that spot... no Pulse I am aware of, but mine are arterrial Aneurysms.. not veinous..

 I am not on IBT at this moment..as Rob has not put it back up yet and  I had a incident a week ago,, not anything to do with the IBT.. nothing ..I wish to discuss... right now.. later for sure...

It was helping my veins as well as eodema..also sleep and breathing is easier in that position.....
something elde the bottpm of my feet had quit hurting! They were hurting as soon as I stood up and continued to hurt after lying down!

 Will do it again when I get a release from the doctor.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 12/12/2008 09:32:07
Hi Alun
Many people who have read this thread must be trying it or considering trying IBT. It baffles me why some people take and never contribute anything towards our study. This is the most disheartening thing about all these years spent researching this wonderful discovery. You are a rare find Alun. Your unselfish openness and willingness to help others by sharing your experiences is commendable and very much appreciated.

Great news that the bulge is a varicose vein. You also mentioned other improvements that the doctor picked up on regarding improvements in muscles. Can you elaborate on this a little more?

A person got back to me 2 days ago saying he thought Naked Scientists forum was closed to the general public and required qualifications to join it. Maybe this is putting people off taking part in our study?

Let us hope that people reading your last post will respond and join us.

Andrew




Hi Andrew

It is good to be able to tell you that the bulge in the groin has been described as a anuryseum in the vein ( a bulge in the vein), which means it is not a artery anuryseum bulge problem.

The Doctor has ask me to see a specialist, as he would like to know how this has happened in that area. and the fact it is a vein bulge.

Your advice and support is appreciated, You were spot on with whot you thought about the vein.

I am now hoping that more people will help you with this important study, so instead of them just reading about this amazingly simple therapy and deciding to go try it, they will help by coming back to the study thread and report their findings.

Thankyou alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 12/12/2008 09:40:46
Hi Karen.

You posted some of your experiences using IBT on another thread relating to your heart condition. There were some very useful blood pressure measurements and photographs. Could I ask you to copy and paste them onto this thread so we can show how IBT improved your blood pressure and oedema? Also if you could take some more photographs of your legs before you tilt the bed again it would be a brilliant comparison with you having reverted back to flat bed rest for so long.

Regards

Andrew

Hi Alun,

Your Welcome...hope all goes well for you!

My varicose vein bulge has no pulse..... but my Aneurysms are located in the Ascending Aorta.. and one in the Descending side also.. I can somewhat feel the area on ascending side more because it hurts at times and I have found my chest is very tender over that spot... no Pulse I am aware of, but mine are arterial Aneurysms.. not venous..

 I am not on IBT at this moment as Rob has not put it back up yet and  I had a incident a week ago,, not anything to do with the IBT.. nothing ..I wish to discuss... right now.. later for sure...

It was helping my veins as well as oedema. .also sleep and breathing is easier in that position.....
something else the bottom of my feet had quit hurting! They were hurting as soon as I stood up and continued to hurt after lying down!

 Will do it again when I get a release from the doctor.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 22/12/2008 20:16:08
WHY so Long for accepting what is after all inevitable?
Quote
Today is a good day! ,Wednesday 17-Nov-1999
writes,Nope  today is truly great day!
I had a chance meeting with a vascular surgeon a couple of weeks ago
he listened as I rambled on about gravity  as I do. He then said that
he had to check out my ideas at the hospital and within an hour he came
back to me saying that he had found someone who I was helping and that
the inclined bed appeared to work.
His interest is in circulatory problems including oedema  gangrene
varicose veins and leg ulcer.
An important development is now taking place with regards of setting up
a clinically controlled study into varicose veins  oedema and gangrene.
A vascular surgeon has expressed an interest in my work and wants to
become involved with a study to see what effect gravity has on the
above conditions. I have waited so long for this to happen and am
delighted with the outcome to say the least.
Last year I met with Professor Ernst and three Doctors at Exeter
University  during a presentation of my findings. Professor Ernst said
that he found the whole subject fascinating and would like to see a
study conducted. Unfortunately The Dr who Professor Ernst recommended
would have nothing to do with the study. This was a major set back as
we were hoping to include many of his patients on the study.
I have written to Professor Ernst and informed him of the vascular
surgeons interest and he has written to me asking me to jointly write a
protocol for the study. When completed Professor Ernst will edit the
protocol and help to present the case for obtaining funding. Ernst is
one of the Worlds leading figures in alternative and complimentary
medicine.
The Journal for Alternative and Complimentary medicine are to publish a
feature about my discovery  either this month or next.
John Simkins formally Chairman of the Multiple Sclerosis Resource
Centre in Essex  called on Sunday to tell me that he was at a meeting
with over 200 people involved in MS. He was amazed when someone stated
publicly that raising a bed by six inches at the head end significantly
reduces the production of urine and reduces the number of times that
people go to the bathroom at night. He asked if he could give my name
and telephone number in a paper he is writing about the meeting. I of
course agreed.
I met Adrian Sanders  MP on Sunday and he has visited the message board
which is frequented by all of the people involved in our study on the
Internet. He printed out the information and is attempting to gain the
interest of the new Minister for Health. Adrian attempted to set up a
meeting with the former Health Minister Frank Dobson but was blocked by
Civil Servants and is concerned that the same Civil Servants are still
in Office. At the very least Adrian  who appeared in the Local Papers
in support of my work  expects to generate some government interest
this time and is now even more determined to push this important
discovery forward.
There is currently a tremendous amount of professional and
non-professional interest in our discovery by people all over the World
 due to the positive study results on the Internet Message Board. Thank
you Cheryl for setting this up and maintaining it in an orderly way.
Lawrence  who is now the Manager for the Multiple Sclerosis Resource
Centre is planning to visit me this month to learn more about my
research and to discuss how we could move this forward with regards to
reaching more people with multiple sclerosis. Lawrence would like to
see a controlled study set up independently of myself to see if the
results can be replicated. However I feel that this would leave me high
and dry  as usual  with zero funding  unless I can become involved in
someway.
Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 24/12/2008 20:32:22
This is excellent news, Andrew.

Not been around much of late, as so busy this time of year, but can report that my oedema is still behaving itself, and I can now get my wellies, plus thick socks on and with the legs of my trews tucked into those boots easily. Not had any repeats of the phlebitis that I am prone to, either.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/12/2008 11:59:56
Brilliant. Thanks for the update about your oedema problem being sorted out using Inclined Bed Therapy. (The opposite tilting of a bed to mainstream advice) Impressive also because you have been subjected to chemotherapy and the disruption this has on your system, one would anticipate some increased fluid retention. But this presents a problem for curent thinking on the cause of oedema.
The post above is from earlier research. Was placed there so that people can see just how long this research has been kept out of mainstream medicine. The sad thing is that each time we get close to conducting a controlled study. The doctors back out and do not keep their word. Same goes for the charities!

This is excellent news, Andrew.

Not been around much of late, as so busy this time of year, but can report that my oedema is still behaving itself, and I can now get my wellies, plus thick socks and the legs of my trews tucked into those boots easily. Not had any repeats of the phlebitis that I am prone to, either.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 27/12/2008 03:00:31
Damn, I didn't notice the date on that quoted post, sorry.

I should also have mentioned that my lumbar spine - the area where xrays show that I've a  chronic degenerative problem/osteoarthritis has been remarkably pain free of late. Usually, at this time of the year, that can be particularly painful - well, give me a constant dull aching sensation that can really wear one's spirits down. As things stand, I get just a bit of discomfort there if I over-do things, and also in my right hip, but that is also pretty good, too. Wish I could say the same regarding the ongoing nerve pain that seems to be lingering at the site of the last op! Despite it being nearly six months since that op, and nearly a month since the last chemo cycle, today it has been feeling as if I've an alien rodent attempting to chew its way out from under my oxter! It's a very weird sensation - especially as the surface of the skin there is still numb!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 30/12/2008 11:32:43
Al, thank you for posting your observations for us. Glad you are finding some pain relief from IBT too, especially with what you have recently been through regarding chemotherapy.

The nerve pain you are experiencing could be part of a healing process going on to repair the damage done by surgery in the area you mentioned.

Are the varicose veins and oedema still improving, or have they remained stable for several months?

Has anyone commented on your appearance as Chemotherapy often has an impact on general health and welbeing? Has your hair condition improved at all during chemotherapy or has Chemo prevented any regrowth?

Damn, I didn't notice the date on that quoted post, sorry.

I should also have mentioned that my lumbar spine - the area where xrays show that I've a  chronic degenerative problem/osteoarthritis has been remarkably pain free of late. Usually, at this time of the year, that can be particularly painful - well, give me a constant dull aching sensation that can really wear one's spirits down. As things stand, I get just a bit of discomfort there if I over-do things, and also in my right hip, but that is also pretty good, too. Wish I could say the same regarding the ongoing nerve pain that seems to be lingering at the site of the last op! Despite it being nearly six months since that op, and nearly a month since the last chemo cycle, today it has been feeling as if I've an alien rodent attempting to chew its way out from under my oxter! It's a very weird sensation - especially as the surface of the skin there is still numb!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/01/2009 15:22:54
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/jan13-2008.jpg)

Photographs taken today of Alun's calf varicose vein which is hardly visible after 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 20/01/2009 11:40:58
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/Calf10-weeksIBT.jpg)

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/jan-2008-2-text.jpg)

Note the changes at 10 weeks in Alun's calf varicose vein. We can clearly see some darkened are where the veins are already returning to normal appearance. Also we can see dimples where varicose veins have been returned level with the skin surface. The last photograph we have seen before but it shows the remarkable improvements after 6 months of IBT. Remember no surgery or drugs have been used by Alun, who was advised by his consultant that surgery would be required in order to correct his varicose veins. Remember also that Alun was using a support / compression stocking and no longer needs to wear any compression aid.

He has also worn shorts on the beach with his family for the first time in many years.

I doubt a controlled study will be forthcoming in the foreseeable future and due to reluctance of people testing this theory and not providing us with the evidence we need to provide a convincing argument we are now considering going to the National Newspapers in order to make this known as an alternative treatment to people who face surgery which is proven to be ineffective, risky and definitely not cost effective.

Alun has experience many improvements. One being a severe pain in his knee, that has troubled him since the age of 4. At 34 the pain has largely gone.   
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 28/01/2009 01:36:20
Showed my legs - the oedema and the veins prone to phelbitis - to my doctor yesterday. He's well impressed.  [;)]

Not doing so good in other areas and have to see an orthopaedic consultant because of problems with my left shoulder and arm that seem to be related to the surgery to remove the lymph nodes. Also having ongoing problems relating to the effect of the chemo on my GI tract. That's aggravating the infernal piles... always said those were my worst VVs, Andrew!  [;D]

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 31/01/2009 14:42:39
Thank you for your post. Great to get some feedback from a doctor for a change too.
The surgery was inevitably going to cause some problems with aches and pains and chemo’s certainly is not going to help your digestion. Perhaps once your digestive system has chance to recover the piles may have a decent chance of improving too. But yes you did say haemorrhoids was an ongoing problem for you, and it is disappointing that these have not yet began to settle.

On a positive note, we may have another lady joining our study who has varicose veins and has hopefully taken some photographs for us. She has already mentioned that after 1 night on IBT she noticed her veins were less inflated than the previous day.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2009 08:47:47
2008 Dec;18(6):318-24. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
Head-up sleeping improves orthostatic tolerance in patients with syncope.
Cooper VL, Hainsworth R.
Cardiorespiratory Unit, St James's University Hospital, Leeds, UK.
OBJECTIVES: This study was designed to examine the effect of head-up sleeping as a treatment for vasovagal syncope in otherwise healthy patients. Treatment for syncope is difficult. Pharmacological treatments have potential side effects and, although other non-pharmacological treatments such as salt and fluid loading often help, in some cases they may be ineffective or unsuitable. Head-up sleeping may provide an alternative treatment. METHODS: Twelve patients had a diagnosis of vasovagal syncope based both on the history and on early pre-syncope during a test of head-up tilting and graded lower body suction. They then underwent a period of 3-4 months of sleeping with the head-end of their bed raised by 10 degrees , after which orthostatic tolerance (time to pre-syncope during tilt test) was reassessed. RESULTS: Eleven patients (92%) showed a significant improvement in orthostatic tolerance (time to pre-syncope increased by 2 minutes or more). Plasma volume was assessed in eight patients and was found to show a significant increase (P < 0.05, Wilcoxon signed-rank test). There was no significant change in either resting or tilted heart rate or blood pressure after head-up sleeping. INTERPRETATION: Head-up sleeping is a simple, non-pharmacological treatment which is effective in the majority of patients. However, it may not be tolerated by patients or bed-partners long term and whether the effects continue after cessation of treatment remains to be determined.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 18/02/2009 10:26:12
How do you feel about that study Andrew?  Obviously it's good news, but...

It's clearly an indication that someone is looking into inclined beds, despite your earlier claims of it being blocked by the medical community, in fact, there are a number of reports in the same journal on similar ideas.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2009 11:13:01
15 years Ben. Why has it taken so long?

I am delighted with this paper. Though I BT had already proved the point of improved orthostatic intolerance with people who have neurological conditions, including multiple sclerosis and spinal cord injury.

This paper is the first to my knowledge using prolonged inclined bed rest as a model for a study.

I am very excited to say the least. This will indeed open the floodgates for more studies to test the other parameters that have been unlocked by years of independent research. Now we need a study for multiple sclerosis and IBT, then another for spinal cord injury and IBT, and another for Parkinson’s disease and IBT, and another for cerebral palsy and IBT and not forgetting Varicose Veins, Oedema and IBT.

These are simple low cost studies that will earn many students Phd’s But more importantly will improve the lives of people with these conditions.

A great deal more has been happening on the Inclined Bed Therapy Front.

It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 18/02/2009 11:58:46
Quote
It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!

But you had nothing to do with this, and even in a few minutes looking at the same journal I found papers on "head up sleep" going back to 1992.  That's well over your fifteen years.  In all this time, you hadn't done the research to notice that others were researching something similar, yet you have consistently claimed that research on titled beds has been blocked.  You were wrong.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2009 12:58:14
Of course I did Ben

The methods used were often short term and a more accute angle. Lots and lots of papers. The difference with this paper is that it is long term use of inclined bed over 4 months.

The first papers were found at the local hospital database, which I was allowed to use.

Quote
It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!

But you had nothing to do with this, and even in a few minutes looking at the same journal I found papers on "head up sleep" going back to 1992.  That's well over your fifteen years.  In all this time, you hadn't done the research to notice that others were researching something similar, yet you have consistently claimed that research on titled beds has been blocked.  You were wrong.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2009 13:00:14
I also mentioned the Ancient Egyptians were using IBT over 4 thousand years ago!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 18/02/2009 13:27:53
Quote
Of course I did Ben

My apologies Andrew, I didn't realise you had been involved in the study.  In what capacity, may I ask?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2009 13:43:13
My apologies Ben

Of course I did was refering to wading through moutains of research papers of many years and you saying I had failed to spot them :) Sorry for confusion
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 18/02/2009 17:15:16
Fair enough! My misunderstanding...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 01/03/2009 20:20:22
Hi Andrew

I have been doing i.b.t for approx 8 month now.

I have benefitted as you can see on the photos i have submitted, however it has took me quiet a while to get used to new formed muscle mass i have been able to gain on this therapy.

For many years, I have never experienced being able to use my muscles on my bottom half and noticed with in weeks of doing i.b.t my legs muscles looking different and i was able to move them as i had not been able to before.

I had not increased my daily exercise and was finding it hard to understand the reason for such a change.

With my knee pain improvement, i was able to look at increasing my exercise with ease. But with the change in the way my muscles were working came frustration as i started to pull muscles up that i didn't relise that i could.  This has taken a while to get used to, and would sometimes give me pain until i relised i was actually doing this myself. [:o]

The therapy is giving me great benefits, and i thankyou for sharing your knowledge with the world.

Thankyou
alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 03/03/2009 10:02:06
Thank you Alun. This is a very important observation and one that has been reported by many people using Inclined Bed Therapy.

Your ability to connect with and move muscles you could not control prior to IBT is something my wife and I noticed. Especially the abillity to tense these muscles to the point where they hurt as you have mentioned was fascinating for us too.

But more to the point, where muscular atrophy has taken place due to neurological problems, the muscles respond and become stronger without the exercise one would normally attribute to muscle building. This was noticed on John and Julian, both who sustained complete spinal cord injury, yet their muscles were observed to firm up along with many other improvements from IBT.

But non more so than the 12 year old girl with cerebralpalsy who had not walked since birth and has never developed strong muscles in her legs until her bed was tilted. Her mother called me to say the bed was being placed horizontal after she had walked. I was astonished that she could want to do this after what she and her family had observed with their daughter. When I asked why, she said that her daughters leg and arm muscles were looking far too masculine. Anyway, they did put her bed down but fortunately only for a week or so because the girl was quickly reverting back to her pre IBT condition.

I have not heard from the parents or the girl for many years but will try to make contact and get some more feedback from them.

Great post Alun thank you for all your help. It's a pitty more people reading this will not provide us with a window into their own observations using IBT for varicose veins and Oedema.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 03/03/2009 10:04:48
Compression stockings find used by astronauts to help prevent varicose veins that prolonged exposure to microgravity causes.

Ironically flat bedrest, the very thing we are avoiding using IBT has also been used as a model for inducing the same harmful effects that micro gravity
causes in the body of healthy astronauts.

Collection: Powerhouse Museum
97/3/3 Compression gaiters, elasticised nylon/metal, worn by Vladimir Titov, USSR, 1988
Description
Compression gaiters, elasticised nylon/metal, worn by Vladimir Titov, USSR, 1983.
A pair of orange elasticised nylon compression gaiters, used to alleviate problems with varicose veins, to which cosmonauts are susceptible as a result of prolonged periods of weightlesness. Each compression gaiter is made of elasticised orange nylon, with a side metal zipper running 3/4 the length of the gaiter. There are adjustable laces (white in one and grey in the other) to improve fit and decrease or increase pressure on the leg. Tapered to fit the shape of the leg, being narrower at the ankle and broadening up the calf. Stretch-stitching around the laces and zips in navy coloured thread.
Production notes
The actual designer is unknown, but it was presumably a doctor or medical technician at one of the medical research facilities associated with the Soviet space program, such as the Institute for Bio-Medical Problems. The gaiters were designed to assist in the alleviation of a specific medical problem, the development of varicose veins in the legs during prolonged periods of weightlessness. Their elastic nature puts pressure on the legs, simulating the effects of gravity and thus preventing swelling of the leg veins. The adjustable lacings allow the gaiters to be 'customised' for the best fit and also provide the capability to vary the pressure on the leg as required.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/03/2009 08:31:40
Interesting observation.
Varicose veins become less likely to stretch over time using IBT. This is what they remain flat for longer periods as the months of avoiding flat bed rest pass. Unlike a pre-stretched balloon, something you are an expert with :) The vein is living tissue so just like when a ligament or tendon is overstretched, resting can enable these to recover their former state. This must also apply to a living vein. The longer it remains flat the longer it will stay flat.

This must be a result of as you say a strengthening of the cellular structure of the vein.

Pressing on a swollen vein would force the extra blood back under pressure. Fluids are relatively incompressible so the pressure you apply in one place will have to increase the pressure in another place. In your case it would be pressing on nerves.

When the blood is no longer filling a swollen vein there is less pressure transferred to the nerves when you press the same area.


Hi Andrew

Another observation,i have noticed has been a difference in the way the veins feel.

Example, i have been treating a small area of ringworm on the top of my calf vein.  When  i first started treating it, i always felt that when i rubbed the cream in the vein it would feel tender after i had pressed on it.

Now, when i go to do the same thing. I can press on the same area with the same pressure and it is not tender as it was before.

Why would this be happening?
Is it because the vein is strenthening?

alun

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: link7881 on 12/03/2009 08:18:49
I really can't believe that this can lessen the swelling of varicose veins? I have varicose veins on both of my legs. I undergone sclerotherapy for 3 weeks and saw my varicose veins subsides, but the procedure is too painful for me!!! The pain is so tremendous. Then my doctor said that we will try a laser therapy for weeks and see what will happen. I am glad that the swelling is gone. But I'm still under treatment. This research is great. [:)]

mod edit - spammy link removed
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 12/03/2009 09:05:54
Hi

It does not matter whether you believe it or not. This is after all a science forum and not a belief based forum. The therapy is simple, does not cost anything and is safe. So all you have to do to prove it one way or another is take some photographs of your varicose veins, tilt your bed to a five degree angle and take some more photographs of the same veins in 4 weeks time. Compare them and report back your findings.

Far safer than injecting synthetic foam into your veins or closing veins off by other means :)

Please come back and let us know what you find.

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 12/03/2009 09:22:04
I think he may have just been here to spam us, Andrew.  I may be wrong, and he may come back, but the spam link in his signiture is now blacklisted, so he won't be able to post with spammy links anymore.  Time will tell if he returns...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 01/04/2009 11:27:40
Alun, thanks for this post. It's a pity that the doctors reading this thread do not have the observational skills that your son has and more to the point, the decency to admit what we have shown here on this science forum to be a scientific repeatable truth.

One would have expected to see people crawling all over these threads and asking questions, yet how many have chosen to ignore these facts?

What should have happened, is that our hospitals and universities should be investigating the possibilities of this research and realise that this simple paradigm has the potential to greatly reduce the NHS outgoings.

The NHS and the private Health Care Industry could use the money spent on unnecessary vascular surgery to the tune of 600 million pounds every year and a further 600 million pounds on complications arising from ulceration and infection, not to mention that most of the surgery for varicose veins is destined to be repeated time and time again with more pain and more risk of complications and infections, when simply tilting the bed not only reduces the swelling an oedema but over time has been shown to strengthen the former varicose veins.

But let’s remember, all we have done here is avoided a flat bed to resolve these problems. And that a flat bed is the basis for our health care system! So does this not tell us anything about the causes of oedema and varicose veins? Yes it does!

It tells us that the flat bed model on which our health service relies upon might not be the safe haven for recovery it is purported to be.

It tells us also that the literature on which our health service is founded is deeply flawed. For example, it is currently believed that sleeping on an incline will have the opposite affect on the varicose veins and oedema! Yet as we have seen on this thread it clearly does not!

It’s about time Inclined Bed Therapy is put into practice for many medical conditions.

Recently a paper has been published by Professor Zamboni and Associates relating to chronic venous insufficiency in the cerebral and jugular veins of 100% of patients with multiple sclerosis and no patients have this problem in the control group. Or simplified, Chronic venous insufficiencies are internal swollen / kinked / twisted / varicose veins, and his paper clearly shows this problem by providing x ray plates.

Zamboni stands on the shoulders of giants and the shoulder he stands on are those of  Doctor Franz Schelling from Austria, who began shouting that MS was a circulatory problem rather than a neurological one a long time ago and for his brave stance in defence of what now is proved to be a truth, he almost lost his licence to practice for trying to help people to see a venous anomaly in MS patients. Schelling did not have the technology at the time he first brought this to our attention. Now thanks to huge advances in Doppler technology we have an opportunity to see this circulation problem clearly. Back flow and pressure fluctuations in the bloodstream are thought to be a major contributing factor in the dame to myelin and lesions in the spine and brain of people with ms.

Which brings me back to IBT.

Initially varicose veins and oedema improvements along with a general feeling of well-being and increases in energy and strength were the first indicators when beds were initially tilted. The improvements in varicose veins meant that the pressure inside the veins had been reduced and that oedema was flowing from the skin back into the venous return to the heart, down the arteries and out through the bladder via the filtration from the kidneys. The opposite to what must have been taking place to cause varicose veins and oedema.

Had it not been for my own mother reporting some improvements in what appeared to be a neurological problem resulting in the loss of movement to her foot and ankle and the loss of sensation in the same leg, it may have taken me longer to realise the full implications and possibilities for IBT.

When my mother called me to let me know she had improvements in varicose veins and oedema and a return of function in her foot, ankle and toes, followed weeks later by recovery in sensitivity in the same leg. I realised that the nervous system was benefiting from the same remarkable improvements in circulation and that gravity was indeed a vital component in maintaining our circulation. Being a lateral thinker it is difficult to remain focused on one specific problem and it was not long before I was searching for a neurological condition to test my hypothesis that a density flow and return system much the same as a pump free domestic hot water system driven  not so much by heat but by evaporation and the resulting solute concentration was indeed playing a vital roll by releasing pulses of salts into the arteries so that they could flow down to an exit point and in doing so provide a boost to the circulation.

The late Professor H. T. Hammel. Who was a brilliant scientist and who had a fascination for how trees raise water to their leaves, was intrigued by this and added he had observed pulsatile flow arriving at the kidneys and had an interest in how dissolved colloids alter the pressure inside the vessels, and had published some papers attacking the literatures understanding of osmosis stating it was COMPLETELY WRONG!

Dean Falk and Michel Cabanac, both working on circulation in the brain, Falks paper is titled braindance, and her interest in is in the evolution of the location of holes in human skulls and how standing upright has moved their locations to the top of the skull instead of at the back of the skull as is the case with primates.  Cabanac who I have mentioned before used a Doppler to show blood flow reversing back through the brain due to hyperthermia from exercise, yet no valves are in place to account for this change in blood flow direction. Yet blood flow was shown to be able to alter it’s direction against the normal pressure of the heart. I put it to Michel that a density change must be taking place due to the huge increases in evaporation from the exercise regimen. And that this would give us an explanation for how this blood flow can reverse under heat stress. He has asked me to write a letter in defence of his paper.

Many people with ms have experienced huge improvements in symptoms from tilting their beds. Someone on this forum stated that these two conditions were unrelated. It now turns out that they are both closely related and that ms is more than likely to be due to a circulation problem.
Ironically my first paper on ms was titled MS is not a disease! The paper went on to explain that keeping the circulation flowing by avoiding postural interference, namely flat bed rest and poor sitting posture we could address the mechanical problems and provide some long term benefits for those who have ms.

11 years of IBT for a lady in the US has provided her with 11 years of ms symptom free. She has only experienced a few episodes of optic neuritis in 11 years! She is not alone, there are more people who are experiencing these remarkable improvements.

How common is venous insufficiency in people with ms?
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/neuro/archive/4277.html
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/04/2009 10:07:13
 
 From Oldbiker1.

 

...who no longer has a problem with varicose veins and night time urination frequency, which was 3-4 times a night and now is 0-1 times a night and quite normal for most people.

 A troublesome night time cough has also completely resolved since he tilted his bed.

 This is what Oldbiker1 has said in emails

Follow up emails from Oldbiker1.
03 April 2009
I was telling a lady about it this afternoon --  she never heard of it, of course, and was quite interested.  She said she would look up "inclined bed therapy" on Google ... so, little by little -- people will discover this very important "cure" for what ails you...!

 I'm going to check back with her next week to see what happened.  I think follow-up is important (which I haven't been doing)... going to start writing down these peoples names and phone numbers... then call back for their reports. 

 
------------------------------------------
 
02 April 2009
 Hi Andrew -- just want to keep in touch.  I promote IBT whenever I see an "opening" -- like today at a coffee shop .. these older people were talking about all their health problems, so I drew a picture of a bed at the five degree angle and gave it to them along with a sales pitch.  They were interested and said they would try it.

 I haven't had the time to follow through on that "sleep study" I was going to do -- but, my cousin (the MD) is interested in the concept and said he would help me with that project whenever I get to it.  I'm still promoting this cure whenever I can.

 Was kind of fun to see my name in print: http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/incline-bed-therapy.html.  I'm still sleeping like a log -- in fact, I quite often sleep straight through -- don't even get up once for the bathroom (compared to 3-4 times a night before IBT).  Also, don't cough at night and varicose veins are gone now ... sorry I didn't take pictures last summer.  but, it works. I guess my skin is improving -- people tell me that I look "good" --- maybe that's because of the exercise?  But, I'm sure it's a benefit of the sleeping position.

 So, if we end up there this fall, I'll have plenty of time to get to Devon and meet with you to discuss the many benefits of IBT.  Also, I would take that time to write some kind of a promotional booklet -- will have time to assemble all the data and put it together in a publication... this concept needs a lot of exposure -- 99.9% of the people out there don't know about it ... there's a free cure sitting there waiting to be used ... if they only knew...! 

 15 January 2009

Hi Andrew -  I haven't been promoting the bed position lately, except if the subject comes up in conversation.

I'm at 6" high now -- will stay there... wife doesn't like it any higher (I tried a little higher).  Continue to sleep well -- I get up once (instead of 2-4 times) after about six hours. I made another change that seems to have a benefit to the quality of sleep -- have the top of my head pointing south (Indian Vastu teaching).  Now I sleep like a rock -- don't wake up at all until time for the toilet.  And I'm sure there are other beneficial things going on.

got to keep going here...


Progress  Sep 26, 2008

Hi Andrew,

Just wanted to give you an update. I'm in Ellicott City, Maryland this week visiting with my daughter and family. Her husband is an MD working in Baltimore -- he has a teaching position... working with the new doctors.

My daughter has problems with acid reflux, so I managed to convince the doc that we should raise the bed ... so I raised the head by 3 inches yesterday -- that's a start. Over time he will experience the benefit and I'm hoping will slowing introduce this concept wherever he can. On my next trip I'm going to take it up to six inches (assuming he's OK with it).

My daughter from London is also visiting and her husband was here for a week. I put her bed at three inches and her husband's snoring volume subsided considerably while he was here (in California last week).

I'm continuing to enjoy the benefits -- no coughing at night and better quality sleep. I also noticed something unusual... my distance vision is improving slightly (without glasses). It's not perfect, but I see better without the glasses than with them. 

 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 05/04/2009 18:02:10
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/April-1st-night2-with-text.jpg)

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/april-1st-night-texhighrest.jpg)

More photographs from Alun showing large varicose vein on his calf muscle has returned to normal appearance and no longer causes discomfort and pain.

9 months of avoiding a flat bed is all that was required to resolve the internal pressure problem that caused the veins to bulge. Surgery does not address the underlying causes of varicose veins, is expensive, risky and destined to require further surgery as other veins take the extra blood volume that is diverted when surgery closes a varicose vein.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: geordiejulie on 15/04/2009 00:03:56
Hi Andrew

It's been awhile since I added a post but to be honest the last few months have been full of ups and downs.  Mainly due to the life changing effect the IBT has had on Alun.  I am truly amazed at the difference that has occurred in his leg health.  His varicose veins as you had predicted have receded so that they are barely visible.  I cannot understand why more money is not being allocated to this study which would save the NHS literally millions of pounds, where is the logic in that! 

The leg pains my husband has had over the years have at times reduced him to tears and after endless examinations and procedures nothing has ever been diagnosed, we literally could not go shopping together as it was guaranteed that his legs would ache not with the varicose veins but around the knee.  We could not enjoy any alcoholic beverages as the same thing would occur.  I am very happy to report that both of these have almost been eradicated. I am a happy woman! 
I have to stress that these changes have not occurred overnight but over a matter of months but the results can only speak for themselves we have nothing to gain by glorifying this.

As for myself I recently reported changes to my menstrual cycle which to be honest is still a little irregular.

An observation i did make though was that whilst having the dreaded 'diarrhea and sickness' bug last year alun slept on the incline whilst myself and the children who were unable to bear the atrocious noise from upstairs slept downstairs.  Whilst aluns bug lasted a matter of around 3 - 4 hours, my bug dragged on for almost 36 hours.  I had not noticed particularly before this some subtle changes that had happened either.  Whilst stopping down at my mothers for a night or two i had to sleep on a flat bed and i have to tell you i could not have predicted missing that incline so much.  I was literally chilled to the bone! It didn't matter what i did i could not warm myself up and I woke up in agony.  When i got back home and back into that bed it was like being wrapped up i a blanket and cuddled!  It did take a few days for the effect on my back to wear off. This is a change i would not have acknowledged before this. 

In general my back has improved one heck of a lot.  I occasionally wake up with it aching but honestly this is far far less than before and doesn't last for days as before, more like hours.  My hip honestly rarely hurts now.  I have been able to walk longer distances and this is absolutely brilliant for me and this was something that worried me.

Another thing I did experience was for about a month after Christmas, so having been on the incline for about 4 months, i experienced quite a lot of knee pain.   The knee pain occurred in my left knee and strangely enough this is the side that my hip always gave me the pain.  I am happy to say that this is something that has subsided.

I do wake up some mornings with pain on the outside edge of my left foot although this does subside after awhile as well. 

Oh and good news for the ladies, i can definitely see a huge difference in the cellulite to my legs and bottom and there aren't many cures for that!  Whether this is helped by the amount of fluid i now drink or the fact that the muscle tone is improved i am not too sure but it has happened.  No complaints here.

When in a flat bed i always slept on my left side or on my stomach and interestingly i can sleep on neither now. I can now only sleep on my right side or my back. 

All in all, i would say that although i had doubts and reservations about the simplicity of IBT and the effects that it could have, I can only give positive comments as I can only comment on what I see and feel.

With the varicose veins, i cant understand why anyone would actually resort to surgery or invasive chemicals to reduce them when the 9 months alun has spent on IBT have proved that this works. Full Stop.

Alun and I have two children, our eldest son suffers from asthma, eczema and hayfever and this does cause him a few problems.  The youngest has a very mild form of cerebral palsy, which affects him physically in that he does struggle with P.E and gross motor movements although this is far improved from when he was a small child, mainly due to his determination.

Our eldest sons asthma has been worse lately and at times unpredictable.  On a recent trip to High Force which is a massive waterfall, our son was fine whilst walking down to the waterfall but when at the foot of this his asthma came on quite severely which was worrying to us proving the effect of humidity on asthma and the body.  It literally drained him.  On another occasion we went to Hamsterly forrest we were again confronted with this sudden onset of his asthma just as it started to rain.

The next plan for us is to put the children on an incline and note what happens there and not only are we looking forward to that but so are the children.

I honestly don't think that we could go back to a flat bed now.

I will keep noting any changes as regular as I can.

I cant really thank you enough and really hope that things change and people can just sit up and realise what you are doing here.

I think in the near future you will be repeating those little words 'I told you so!' quite a lot Andrew....



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: geordiejulie on 18/04/2009 08:21:01
RD

I have to say you are as determined to disprove Andrews theory as he is to prove it. That makes you as bad as each other. 

I have read your previous 'titter tatter' with Andrew with interest and fair to say that I had noticed the spots on Aluns legs before this time and wondered what could be causing them.  However this rash and discolouration occured as the veins went down and has since cleared, it could also have been caused by an allergic reaction to some mustard seeds he was using as an alternative therapy at the time to clear up what we thought was ringworm.  The ring worm which has been since diagnosed as eczema, something which both myself and eldest son have a touch of(along with the usual hayfever and asthma)and has since cleared up with some emuvate. 

Alun has also for the record been examined by a top vascular surgeon who did not seem to pick up on any signs of vasculitis and I must point out that this surgeon is very highly respected and I would definately put my life in his hands. 

I really have nothing to gain by fighting Andrews corner and had initially been very sceptical, but have seen this massive improvement with my own eyes.

The leg pains you tie in with the vasculitis have been occuring since Alun was a small baby, before he could walk according to his mum and correct me if Im wrong but I would not have thought of vasculitis being apparent at this tender age.  Also my youngest son has had the same leg pains since being a toddler as well, he has healthy legs, so does this mean that he has vasculitis as well.
I have to say I am always up to comment because I see science as never being exact.  It is something that should always be looked at inside and outside of the box. 

I have previously also watched my grandma suffer from poor circulation conditions including gangrene and would not ever hesitate to rush Alun to a doctor or consultant if I was unduly worried.

So thanks for you advice but for now I am going to ride this one out.

I suppose in a nut shell people would have probably poo pooed the idea of mould being used as an effective antibiotic at one point?

Best regards

Julie
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Av on 23/04/2009 23:07:48

i was going thru this forum and found it to be really interesting...was wondering where i,d be able to get the details of this IBT experiment thats been going on??plus id wanna kno if alun's varicosities reappeared in the evening
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Av on 24/04/2009 20:19:41
sorry...kind of meant the same thing...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/04/2009 08:38:57
AV  most of the information you need is in this thread. You can also google "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" to learn more about it, but it is very simple to take part and there are no costs involved.

It would be a great help if you could return to give some updates on what you are experiencing using IBT.

Varicosities is also used to include more than one varicose vein. though rarely used, varicose veins is more commonly used. So both of you were right :)

Mind if I ask why you are interested in IBT and varicose veins?

Andrew

Follow the links on my posts to more information in this thread.



sorry...kind of meant the same thing...

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Av on 25/04/2009 21:06:44
sure you can..its just that from what i knew abt varicose veins is that there is a defect in the vein valves which prevent the backflow of blood from the deep veins to the superficial veins leading to pooling of blood in the superficial leg veins which causes them to become the way they do...the fact that just by inclining the bed at night can lead to the veins becoming normal and remaining so or rather as alun said becoming better as the day progressed was kind of difficult for me to reason..but since he's got his vv improving means that it is working though kind of difficult to think how
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/04/2009 11:20:01
AV varicose veins cannot be caused by defective valves in Alun's and many more cases at least. Because their valves would still be as defective if this were the case and they would not return to normal veins over time. The only logical conclusion is that the pressure inside the vein that was causing them to dilate and twist has been addressed by tilting the bed. This is further backed up by the migration of oedema from the skin and surrounding tissue back into the venous return and excreted in the urine via renal filtration as should be the case in a person unaffected by oedema.

T get a clear picture of my reasoning for tilting a bed, look at the video experiments on Youtube, showing water rising up a 6 mil bore nylon tube to 24 metres, also a scaled down experiment shows this effect clearer. This vertical circulation is driven by introducing a tiny amount of denser minerals that are dissolved in 10 mils of salt solution (in the larger experiment) Less solute will also cause the same circulation!

Here we have a downward flow which contains the salt solution and represents the phloem in the tree but also represents the arterial flow in the human body, the salts added to the arteries at an elevated pint, not by introducing them as in the experiment but by the evaporation from exhaling and evaporative loss from the skin and eyes. It is impossible for evaporation to take place from a fluid that contains solutes like the blood, cerebrospinal fluid, tissue fluid and the fluid that flows onto the surface of the lungs and respiratory tract. Tears from the eyes and sweat from the skin illustrate this concentrating effect, so do nasal and oral mucous / secretions.

In the case of the lungs, salts and sugars are inevitably concentrated by evaporation and the resulting density changes will cause the fluids to migrate back through the lining of the lungs and into the arterial circulation, forcing more dilute fluids to flow onto the surface ready fro the next exhale.

This would release pulses of salts into the arteries and providing we are aligned to the direction of gravity in relation to the predominantly vertically placed veins and arteries, these salts will assist the circulation introducing a positive pulsatile pressure flow in the artery and at the same time cause a dragging effect on all of the molecules in the blood providing a boost for the return flow in the veins. It is this boost venous return flow boost that provides us with an understanding of Starlings law of the heart.

Increased venous return was demonstrated by elevating a vessel containing blood linked to the heart to show how an increase in venous return to the heart produces a greater output from the heart. The body however does not have a vessel connected to it with a length of tubing to increase the venous return. What it does have however is an ability to release solutes down the artery to induce a slight increase in arterial pressure and a compensating decrease in venous pressure that pulls more blood back to the heart caused by the dragging effect the solutes have in the descending arterial flow.

Fir this to be correct, density changes in urine output would need to be related to inclined bed posture, showing a moderate increase in urine density.

But the opposite effect should take place if we sleep horizontally showing a moderate comparative decrease in the density of the solutes found in the urine. A simple hydrometer test provided the evidence for this. But the most important reading was when my wife and I slept head down for several days. Here the urine output went down to a near water density. So the body was either storing the solutes within the blood, muscle, tissue and bones or the uptake from the gut had been interrupted.

I think it was a combination of both, as my wife and I both ended up with diarrhoea, indicative of more fluids passing through the bowls.

Further research revealed that head down sleeping was capable of causing weight loss and was I believe used with the late actor Marlon Brando. However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, head down sleeping is going to cause a lot more problems than weight loss over time. NASA have been proving this for many years and still are repeating these same postural experiments offering large sums of money to youngsters to sleep head down to see what happens to their physiology and with good reason, as head down tilt produces a rapid ageing / degenerative process on normally healthy people.

So to sum up, tilting the bed correctly (IBT) method alters the pressures inside the predominantly vertical vessels by allowing gravity to push and pull on dissolved solutes flowing in the blood, lymph, cerebrospinal fluid and tissue fluids.

Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Xenity on 19/05/2009 01:08:37
Hello Andrew and everyone else at this forum.

Congrats for this great place to inform and share knowledge.

This is my first message here, and I want ot apologize in advance if my english is not good enough, my mother tongue is not english.

I had esclerotherapy done on my legs last Thursday.
I do not have severe varicose veins, but during my pregnancy I had a long flight (16 hours) that cause me a thrombosis in my right calf.
After that I have been soffering some discomfort in the area, specially during hot weather.
The first doctor's diagnose, after checking out my blood circulation, was a grade I of venous insuficiency (sorry I do not know what's the right translation of this).
Just something that could evolve in time to a major problem or bigger varicose veins.
According to his words nothing to really be afraid off. He said they were more an aesthetical problem than a health problem at this point. I decided not to touch them if the esclerotherapy would not guarantee the discomfort get better.

Few months later I went to visit another doc and who told me the best way to prevent them to grow bigger and to get worse was to do esclerotherapy or laser. He said my condition would not get better by doing the esclerotherapy but I would retard the evolution of the decease or even stop it if, eventually, i keep checking on them and eliminate the ones that appear as soon as I notice them. He did not only inject the area I had the discomfort on due to my thrombosys but other areas I had no discomfort at all or noticed any enlargen varicose veins. He kept repeating he had "the expert eye" and could see a problem coming soon.

Well, this was not only expensive but an experience I do not want to repeat if there is a way to avoid it.

Right now I am wearing compression stockings wich I am supposed to wear at least for a week based on his post-esclerotherapy suggestions.

I still have some blueish due to the injectionss and I really want to try IBT as soon as possible but I have a few questions I would like you to answer if possible.

1st. Should I wait until my legs are totally healed from the bruises I have to start IBT?

2nd. Is there any negative side effect or uncompatibility if I use IBT after having some veins esclerosed?

3rd. Doc told me the healing would speed up proportionally to the time I use this compression stockings. If instead wearing them for 7 days I wear them for 20 my legs will recover faster. Is ITB advised to use with any compression garment or not?

I apologize in advance, because I have not read the whole thread and probably many of my questions here have been answered.
As I said on the beggining of my post my english is not as good as I would like it to be and sometimes is kind of difficult to fully understand everything.

Thanks in advance for your time and for your great work.





Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 19/05/2009 09:19:41
hi andrew and everyone else on the forum,

im 34 and last year discovered a varicose vein on my right leg, it protrudes around the underside of my ankle, slightly above my ankle and then there is a gap of about 4" before it starts protruding on the inside of my lower leg (this is around 5" long and finishes just inline with the bottom of my knee) i will obviously try and put pictures up tonight to clarify!!

i am so pleased to have found this forum as i am genuinely petrified of surgery and anything i can do to try and cure this problem will be of great help

just a couple of questions for you if you don't mind?

1,the doctor advised that during the day i wear a compression stocking as i do some lifting with my job on occasion, does this still stand??

2,as of last night i inclined the bed by 6" at the head end and found that on waking up this morning my legs felt heavy and the vein was visible right from the off! could this be because the vein pools at the bottom of my foot  around my ankle and if so can inclining make it worse?

many thanks on your fantastic work and i shall update my progress as best i can 

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/05/2009 11:15:32
Hi Daryl.

Compression stockings are going to shift the pressure problem to other veins, pretty obvious really. Alun who has provided us with some amazing photographs no longer requires compression stockings and enjoys wearing shorts in the summer. The calf muscle VV has returned to a normal looking vein.

By shifting the pressure problem to other areas using a compression stocking, you may experience haemorrhoids and even a bulge in the groin termed as a blow out. Think of squeezing a balloon, as you compress it the rest of the balloon expands.

Initially there will be some changes to the way your veins behave as the circulation improves. It is around 4 weeks that improvements should become more obvious, so don’t be discouraged by the minor changes you are observing in your ankles.

Do not cross your legs when sitting and do not sit with your knees higher than your seat so use an extra cushion to raise your bottom up higher or at least level with your knees.

Also try leaving the compression stockings off when you feel comfortable to do so.

Examine your veins before you get out of bed and while you are laying on the incline, best achieved by asking a partner or parent to take a photograph while you are laying on the incline. See alun's photographs while on the incline.

And please take some photographs of your veins for comparison later.

Do you have and oedema (fluid retention problem)?

How did you find sleeping on the incline, could you notice a significant difference?

Thank you for joining the study.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: BenV on 19/05/2009 11:38:33
Andrew

I know you have confidence in this, and that you would like to collect more evidence, but it is not appropriate for you to be advising people to ignore their doctor's advice.  Especially considering the tiny amount of information you have been given.

You know very little about this person's situation, so I think it's highly irresponsible of you to tell them to ignore medical advice.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Xenity on 19/05/2009 12:11:11
Andrew,

I think you have missed my previous message. Maybe because Daryl sent a message similar to mine right after I posted.
I am decided to try the inclined bed therapy and some of my questions have been answered already by your post to Daryl. However I'd still like to know if, based on others experience or in your own data it is too soon for me to start after having esclerotherapy done last thursday.

BenV
I cannot speak by others, but regarding myself I consider that I have read enough  or had enough transparent information to decide what to do with my health and life. I appreciate your concern, but in no case Andrew claims to be a doctor and I am taking his advices as something to consider, to think about and, finally, if I go for it, to try on my own risk.
Exactly what I have done by visiting a doctor.
I think we are all responsible to take our own decissions and to be consequent with the results of them.

Someone who conduces an study about IBT with his own resorces and asks no money or any other compensation than a follow up from people gives me much  more trust than some other people out there called "professionals" that gave me his medical advice and charged an enormous amount of money to, somehow, and temporarely, fix the problem that I had and the ones I did not have yet, of course charging me for both. This is exactly what has happened to me recently. I totally feel like a lab rat.

Believe me, if IBT or any other alternative remedy  that I try do not work for me I am not going to claim to be mislead from anyone else but myself. Information is the key and I think, nowadays, we have tons of it to do a good research, contrast opinions and finally decide what to do.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/05/2009 12:24:13
Hello and welcome to Nakedscientists.
Wish you had found us sooner as you may well have avoided the surgery procedures and it’s inherent risks.
See comments on this video: Thrombosis has resolved using Inclined therapy and is thought to be a result of the circulation improvements assisting the removal of the blockages. My wife’s mother was the first to report this, asking me where the huge hard mass on her leg that had been with her for years could have gone. Worth monitoring this.
Side effects reported are muscular aches, like you would expect from exercise. Stiff neck with a number of people usually lasting a few days and even a few weeks for some as the spine is stretched due to the traction of sleeping inclined.
The blood that flowed down the closed veins must be re-routed and Inclined therapy can greatly assist this process. Bruising should vanish more quickly using I.T.
I would imagine using a heavy compression stocking after sclerotherapy will assist in the closing of the veins. This is logical, so in order to prevent the improvements in circulation associate with using I.T from undoing the sclerotherapy waiting for the veins to close completely is advisable.
I cannot help feeling concerned that sclerotherapy has been used close to a deep vein thrombosis and not sure that this should have been performed with the knowledge that you have a more serious circulation problem than simply varicose veins. A compression stocking may cause this to worsen, although it is advised to use a graduated compression stocking for two years after developing a blood clot / thrombosis.
Thinking abut how this could work, it might be that the restriction on the veins due to the applied pressure could increase the through-flow of blood, a bit like putting your finger over a hosepipe accelerates the outflow of water. I think this can be achieved and indeed has been achieved using I.T without the compression stocking, though the choices you make are ultimately your own.
You should consult your doctor about I.T and about your thrombosis and be especially vigilant with regards to monitoring your skin appearance following sclerotherapy.
Andrew




Sclerotherapy advice: http://esclerotherapy.com/
Risks of Sclerotherapy
All surgery brings risk including Sclerotherapy. A good candidate for Sclerotherapy is in good overall health and has the psychological stability to deal with the recovery period. There is often some post-op pain or discomfort, temporary bruising and swelling, some restriction on activity, and some work-time lost.
recovery is straightforward when you get a Sclerotherapy if you follow doctor’s orders
Your cosmetic surgeon will give you written instructions for how to care for yourself after a Sclerotherapy. There’ll be such things as:
·   Medications for pain or infection prevention
·   Creams or lotions – to promote healing
·   Special garments – to give support
·   Wound care procedures
·   Bedrest – for a short time only, and not for all Sclerotherapy procedures
·   Gradually increased activity – to gradually rebuild strength and promote circulation without endangering wound healing
There’ll be some follow-up appointments to monitor your Sclerotherapy recovery, so be sure and keep them. With careful self-care and compliance with the plastic surgeon’s advice, most people have a complete Sclerotherapy recovery and a happy outcome.
Post-Op Complications Sometimes Happen
Serious complications after a Sclerotherapy are rare, but if they do happen, you should notify your plastic surgeon immediately. Things to watch for after a Sclerotherapy are:
·   Sudden extra bleeding.
·   A feverish temperature – this can indicate infection.
·   Discoloration around the treated area, especially greenish or yellowish – another sign of infection and a sign that local blood circulation is perhaps impaired
·   Increased pain – this usually accompanies infection
·   Increased numbness, tingling or prickling – some of this may be expected, but notify your cosmetic surgeon if it seems to persist or increase. It could indicate nerve injury.
·   Increased swelling (beyond what may be predicted by your plastic surgeon after your Sclerotherapy procedure) – could be a haematoma forming (a pooling of blood).
A minor haematoma can be drained with a needle, but if it’s left untreated, can lead to infection and even necrosis (death) of the skin.
A major haematoma, if it occurs at all, will show up in the first 12 hours or so post-op and is a medical emergency. You’ll notice pain, swelling and general agitation. Be sure and report this immediately to your plastic surgeon. Hematomas can turn into blood clots, which can then break free and circulate in the blood. This is life-threatening, but rarely happens.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/05/2009 12:26:07
Andrew

I know you have confidence in this, and that you would like to collect more evidence, but it is not appropriate for you to be advising people to ignore their doctor's advice.  Especially considering the tiny amount of information you have been given.

You know very little about this person's situation, so I think it's highly irresponsible of you to tell them to ignore medical advice.


Ben, not advising people to ignore their doctors advice, just advising that Daryl may be able to avoid using a support stocking when the effects of Inclined Therapy become apparent as they did with Alun, who no longer requires the use of a support / compression stocking.
See the MSRC report titled Raised Bed Survey to see that 6 people out of ten people with ms reported improvements in varicose veins and oedema. It is also worth remembering that not all people with ms have varicose veins and indeed not all of the ten people interviewed had varicose veins but all that did had experienced huge improvements. And some of the partners of the participants who shared the same inclined sleep experienced improvements in varicose veins.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.25
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Xenity on 19/05/2009 14:48:16
Thanks Andrew for your reply.

I think I will make sure I am fully recovered from my esclerotherapy prior to any attempt to IBT for the moment.
My doc told me to go back on fall to check the evolution on my legs and see if another sclerotherapy session is needed.
As I want to avoid further esclerotherapy sessions it might be the right moment to start IBT if everything is fine.

Will keep you posted if anything changes.

Thanks again for your help.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 19/05/2009 17:08:12
hi andrew thanks for the reply,
the first night on the incline seemed slightly strange, after about twenty minutes i got some tingling in my legs and then must of nodded of! and on waking this morning i found my legs slightly heavier than normal which eased after ten minutes of walking about, the only thing to note was that both i and my girlfriend found we had slid down the bed in the night  [;D]

as for the stocking, i will cease wearing it as of today and see how it goes!!
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/005-13.jpg)
this is my ankle
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/006-10.jpg)
and this is of the side of my leg,not the biggest of vv's but its bashing my confidence no end

also i don't suffer from any kind of oedema, hope this helps and i shall keep updating as and when
thanks again
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/05/2009 17:23:37
Thanks for the photographs.

Not as bad as I anticipated they might be, so we should expect significant improvements in 4 weeks as was the case with my wife and a nurse who were the first to try it many years ago now.

To prevent slipping put a quilt / duvet / blanket under the bottom sheet and tuck it under the mattress. The additional friction should help a lot. Also after a while you grow accustomed to the slope.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: free spirit just soul on 19/05/2009 22:27:21
Hi Andrew,

I have serious varicose veins. I would love to participate in your study!! Are you still looking for participants?  I also have some motor nerve damage as evidenced by Nerve Conduction Studies and EMG's.  I would be willing to track that data as well, since you mention the potential MS implications.  Where do I sign up? :)

Julia
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/05/2009 23:14:21
Hi Julia
The study is informal and aimed at providing strong anecdotal evidence supported preferably with photographic evidence. This thread contains most of the information you require. The intervention is simply to avoid sleeping flat as per the picture on the start of this thread.

This study should mirror two previous pilot studies, although this study is aimed at varicose veins and oedema, your input with regards to your neurological problems and possible changes would be most welcome and of considerable interest to myself and others using this forum.

Conducted under the watchful eyes of doctors and scientists we may even force a controlled study aimed at disproving or proving once and for all the predictable improvements in varicose veins and oedmea. But this would shake the foundations of the medical establishment so will be resisted for now at least.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Bondatan on 29/05/2009 14:43:39
Andrew,

I've read most posts about IBT this afternoon. Very interesting.

Want to let you know that I suffered from cluster headaches for about 30 years. Plus: chronic sinusitus, insomnia, swollen veins on my temples, cold hands & feet.

About 4 years ago I read about sleeping on an inclined bed and started doing so. Also practiced a lot of chi kung to improve circulation.

All problems are over now. Haven't had cluster headache for more than 3 years now and I'm absolutely sure it won't return. Circulation is great, sleep deep, hands & feet warm, sinuses healthy, head clear. Will certainly continue to sleep this way.

Do you know where I can find more info on IBT & Parkinson's disease (for a friend)?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 29/05/2009 23:08:48
Andrew,

I've read most posts about IBT this afternoon. Very interesting.

Want to let you know that I suffered from cluster headaches for about 30 years. Plus: chronic sinusitus, insomnia, swollen veins on my temples, cold hands & feet.

About 4 years ago I read about sleeping on an inclined bed and started doing so. Also practiced a lot of chi kung to improve circulation.

All problems are over now. Haven't had cluster headache for more than 3 years now and I'm absolutely sure it won't return. Circulation is great, sleep deep, hands & feet warm, sinuses healthy, head clear. Will certainly continue to sleep this way.

Do you know where I can find more info on IBT & Parkinson's disease (for a friend)?
Iwrote this a while back to see if some interest in conducting a formal study would come of it. Difficult being a one man band sometimes but soldier on as best as I can.

 INCLINED BED THERAPY
Google search terms you will find interesting. It would appear that scientists are waking up to the fact that there is something about flat bed rest that does not bode well for people with Parkinson's disease if indeed it is a disease at all. "Sleep Deprivation" parkinson's

For People With Parkinson’s Disease.   

A person with Parkinson’s experiences many sleep related problems. Often waking paralysed following what should have been a restful nights sleep. On waking a partner or carer will help the person suffering from morning paralysis to sit up. Now their posture has been altered to make use of gravity’s beneficial influence on the circulation and some recovery is achieved. Then the legs are moved to the edge of the bed and the feet placed on the floor. Again additional recovery from paralysis is observed. Eventually when helped to stand the person with PD becomes able to move around the home and throughout the day will become more normal in function and in some cases you would hardly realise they have PD.
Only to return to the same repetitive degenerating sleeping posture and each night the PD symptoms gradually deteriorate the person’s ability to function normally.

Yet when the bed is elevated at the head end by 6-8 inches to produce a five degree to the horizontal angle, Parkinson’s Disease is observed to improve each morning and Morning Paralysis ceases to become a problem.

We need to test this therapy on a group of who have Parkinson’s Disease! My question is: Are you willing to think outside of the box and test this simple intervention?

Andrew K Fletcher   United Kingdom

Tel: +441803524117

All I have in writing, though had some interesting telephone conversations from several people trying this method, all positive.

Study update:     HOPE

We are still soldiering on with the Gravity theory and I personally want to convey some hope to all involved with the inclined bed.


Some 6 weeks ago I was asked to go to the home of an elderly couple in Torquay.
On arrival, I was introduced to a man who has advanced Parkinson's Disease. He was unable to hold a conversation, suffered from Bowel and Bladder incontinence, and had severe swelling of the abdomen and lower limbs, caused by fluid retention. His face covered in red blotches and carrying a mask of pain. He was housebound and unable to walk with out assistance and support, using a stair lift to reach the upper floor.

Life for this couple is a continual 24/7 struggle.

Some 5 years previous they had read about my work and were approached by a friend whom I was helping with the inclined bed and advised to give it a try at least. The lady said to me that she did not think it applied to everyone and thought that it was too simple an idea to even consider. 5 years later she kneeled down and prayed for a sign. On a Sunday Morning she read the article in the Sunday Independent Newspaper relating to John Caan's continued recovery from a spinal cord injury while using the inclined bed.
Strangely enough she said that she had read all of the news items, and there are many, but still thought at the time that it still did not apply to them-selves?

The very next day I received an amazing call to say that following the best nights sleep she could remember she turned to face her husband and saw that his face had completely altered, there was no pain and the mask of Parkinson's had left. When her husband awakened they had a conversation for the first time in almost a year.

4 weeks later another equally amazing call revealed that her husband had begun to walk in the home and that he had lost two and a half stones of fluid from his body. He now had toes on his feet, which were previously covered by swollen skin, which had flowed out over his feet.

5 weeks yet another amazing call. This time she was talking to her neighbour outside of her home when her husband walked by and continued up the hill with a near normal walking action instead of the Parkinson's Shuffling movement normally observed.

6 weeks I went without appointment to their home to see the changes for myself. I rang the doorbell and was greeted by a man whom six weeks ago could not talk. I asked him "How are you"? and he replied; "much better now thank you, would you like to talk to my wife, I'll just give her a call". I then stood with disbelief as I watched him walk up the stairs with ease, ironically by the side of his stair lift and call his wife's name, he then turned around and walked down the stairs in an uninterrupted normal pace. His approaching figure transformed from the swollen motionless figure of 6 weeks previous.

His medication has now been reduced to half, because we believe that some side effects of totally out of character actions could have been caused by an overdose of drugs. This had the desired effect and worked within a few days, bringing control back with it.

He now wanders off from time to time to see his grandson playing football at the local school, he visits friends and family much to the amazement of everyone who knows him.

No matter how many times I hear or witness these unfolding stories they never cease to amaze and inspire me to continue with this important discovery. And I sincerely hope that this letter to you all will help in someway to lift the shroud of gloom and evil that surrounds the world today.

Your friend across the pond


Andrew K Fletcher
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 26/06/2009 13:38:47
just a quick update,

i have been trying ibt for over 5 weeks now, i must say i do seem to sleep rather well and wake up feeling quite refreshed!! these are the plus sides,

as for my varicose veins they have not improved in the slightest, i would say that if anything it has slightly worsened, i haven't been wearing a support stocking since the day i started ibt nor have i been straining, my only exorcise has been cycling and the odd game of tennis

i would love to hear from people who have noticed any significant changes after a 4 or 5 week period, im not expecting miracles and will continue with ibt, but i am slightly concerned that it may cause more harm than good and would like some reassurance please

i hope this post doesn't seem too negative thats not the intention
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 26/06/2009 23:53:52
Hi Daryl

Don't be disappointed with your results, because you have been on i.b.t for just 4-5 weeks.

I had a periods of thinking that nothing was happening, but they will sometimes look different from time to time.

Maybe whot you have witnessed is blood actually improving which may cause your veins to look blowted temperally, i observed this from time to time. And the improvement came afterwards.

Please make sure you drink more, as this will help alot.......

I have now eradicated the knee pains that i have had for many years before i.b.t and my veins are improving as the months go by.

Andrew has taught me to think laterally & it has changed my life - more than just being on the bed as well.

I will make the effort to add some new images, i have just had a horse bite to deal with on my leg. But when it heals i will be ready to release them.

I am so thankful to Andrew for not only sharing his theory, but giving me a understanding of how the theory works.

He will always have my support..
alun004


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 30/06/2009 09:09:41
Hi Daryl, thank you for the update.

You say you have not been wearing the support stocking. And there is a slight increase in the varicose veins. You took some photographs, can you take some more from the same angle and same lighting? How were the veins responding to the compression stocking prior to putting the bed on an angle?

When using Inclined therapy, before getting out of bed in the morning, can you have someone take a photograph of the veins as Alun did? This should show normal looking veins and this is how the bed works, the longer the veins are kept deflated, the more the eleasticity of the vein recovers it's ability to resist pressure changes. A bit like stretching a ligament needs resting in order to tighten back up.

Your post is not negative, you are stating your observations and this is fine as we all need to learn. The best way to examine the veins is to compare photographs taken at the same time of day before and after.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 01/07/2009 15:51:04
hey alun and andrew thanks for the replies,

andrew as for the compression stocking,
 i don't feel it really did a hell of a lot except hold the veins in as opposed to having them out in the open and maybe enlargening whilst im lifting or doing some decent excercize, this is probably just a myth i have had installed in me by my doctor who told me to wear one in the first place at all times!!
tbh as soon as i took the stocking off the vein would simply stick out or inflate just as before and as i don't seem to get much pain from it except in winter, i haven't noticed much if any difference
 my obvious fear is that when i do have to lift heavy objects is that all the good ibt is doing i may simply be putting so much pressure on my leg that is never going to get better,

as for the vein itself, it looks different every day especially depending on the weather, sometimes not too bad and when its hot and humid it can look awful!
it also seems to have moved slightly further down my leg by approx an inch,
i think my problem is that the varicose vein starts on my ankle then seems to disappear to nothing up my leg then reappear until it stops just below the knee, almost as if its just a matter of time before the section with no protrusion says enoughs enough and pops all the way to my ankle,

i shall put photos up asap my camera is on charge as i write this

thanks again

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 01/07/2009 16:24:00
as promised (week 5)
firstly my ankle, i have noticed that the little red veins surrounding the bulges seem to have spread apart from that no real change as yet
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/133.jpg)
now my leg, i know it seems hard to see but its actually worse than the photo shows, you can just about make out where the bulging has moved slightly further down the leg and almost looks to be returning upwards in a "V" shape  i can take pics from other angles if it helps? and if someone can teach me how to highlight certain areas that would be great
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/135.jpg)
lastly i will get my girlfriend to take a pic first thing in the morning, i do notice that first thing if i look at my leg before i get up that the veins are totally flat and invisible!!
hope this is a good sign??
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/07/2009 11:36:07
Skin tone looks much healthier. Veins look less prominent to me, especially on the calf. Though could be due to tan. On the other hand the fact that you have a tan means you are more confident :)

More photographs from different angle might be helpful.

The veins being invisible on waking is very important as it confirms the efficacy of Inclined Therapy. The longer the veins remain normal in appearance the more elasticity they will recover over time and the more resistant to pressure changes they will become over time.

Be patient Daryl and please keep a journal as your observations with humidity not only fit with the varicose vein therapy and understanding but add weight to my theory for gravity assisted circulation.

Thank you for providing the new photographs and your observations.

Andrew


 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 01/08/2009 12:11:23
Hi Andrew

I found your website when looking for information on Varicose Veins and being interested in alternative therapies, I was hooked.

I recently went to my GP because I had noticed some bumps on the inside of my right ankle and a vein which contracts and relaxes with my left calf muscle.  I've never been a partciularly large person and have always been fit and exercised well but over the past year I lost 1 stone in weight due to taking up running.

Anyway, my GP was totally dismissive and told me that I was getting old (I'm 38) and they were varicose veins.  He said I could get cosmetic surgery done on them but not under the NHS because they aren't causing me any problems.

I was really upset by his attitude and although the veins aren't that noticeable and I'm not 100% sure they are varicose, I decided to try your IBT.  My husband used bricks to raise the bed to the recommended incline and we have been sleeping like this for a week now. 

My husband doesn't get up in the night to go to the toilet like he usually does, he doesn't snore as much and we both feel really refreshed when we wake up.

With regard to my veins, they are flat when I wake in the morning but become raised when I start moving about.  However, my husband is convinced that the vein on my left calf is starting to flatten slightly. 

I have noticed over the past couple of days that by mid afternoon, the bumps on my ankle and the vein on my calf seem to lessen almost completely and stay that way for the rest of the evening. 

Am I being a bit optimistic that they will disappear completely and that this is a good sign?

Regards.

Denise Bunce
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 01/08/2009 12:32:47
Thanks for the IT instructions Andrew.  As you can probably tell, I'm a bit of a technophobe. [:)]  I've managed to paste my original message to you on here so there's a start!

I've read through the entire thread from Daryl, Karen, Alun, etc and it's all very interesting.

I would like to take part in your study if you want me to.  Next hurdle will be downloading pics on here! [;)]

I have now been sleeping on an inclined bed for 10 nights.

I have a prominent/varicose vein on my left calf over the muscle.  It isn't very big and I noticed it in a lift mirror whilst on holiday about last September.  That's not to say it wasn't there before but I don't tend to go round looking at the back of my legs for fear of walking into something!

I also have some flesh coloured bumps on the inside of my right leg down near my ankle with no visible vein beneath.

I'm 38, I'm very slim (size 6/8, 5' 6" tall) and I do masses of fast walking, running, cycling and horse riding so I'm pretty fit.

Anyway, these lumpy veiny things are knocking my self confidence a bit even though they aren't that noticeable and finding this study has been quite exciting especially hearing about and seeing photos of shrinking veins!

We have a memory foam mattress and my other half has put 2 bricks under the head end one brick under the middle section so we have the right incline.

My hubby is a light sleeper/insomniac.  Since inclining the bed, he has been sleeping like a proverbial log.  Also, he tends to get up most nights to go to the loo and this has stopped.  The best thing is that the snoring has almost stopped completely too so he is a convert already.

As for me, I'm Mrs Impatient and keep getting told off for expecting immediate results with this therapy.  I sleep well but am waking up feeling very refreshed.  My ankle lumps are always well up in the morning when I get up and stay that way until about 4pm when they start to subside a little and virtually disappear towards the end of the day.  The calf vein does the same.  I'm not sure whether this is down to IBT as I never studied them so closely before this!

When I am relaxed, my calf vein virtually disappears.  It is only prominent when I am moving about and it contracts and relaxes with each step.  I'm not sure it is varicose but it does appear to be slightly smaller than it was and ever so slightly flatter.

The little lumpy bits seem to ache since I started IBT.  They don't hurt at all to touch and it might even be something to do with my running as that does make my legs ache from time to time.

My hubby is working away but is home tonight so I will get him to do his David Bailey impersonation and get some photos so you can all laugh at my sparrow legs :)

A couple of questions for you old hands at IBT;

1.  If you go on holiday and sleep flat for a few nights, will the veins come back?

2.  Do the raised areas flatten and disappear completely over time?

Oh well, enough rambling.  I have 7 guinea pigs to muck out in between rain showers!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 04/08/2009 14:06:27
Hi Denise

Glad you found us and welcome to Nakedscientists.

Thank you for adding your observations to this thread. The more people that find us the more the argument for inclining the bed the opposite way around to what the medical profession are currently recommending will “eventually” be realised.

It takes around 4 weeks for the veins to begin to respond to the pressure / tension changes in the venous return blood. Why it takes 4 weeks I have no idea, it is based upon many people who have already used this technique.

To post pictures effectively open a photobucket account or flicker account and upload your photographs to it. Then copy the link it generates for message boards into your post, select preview and if all is ok hit the post button.

Using this method will give better resolution than uploading to the forum.

The link should look like this  (http://blahblahblahblah.jpg)

Not sure about the fleshy coloured bumps, maybe someone on the forum can help you with this.

Great that your hubby is open minded too and willing to give this a go. And the snoring stopping will bring about other bonuses no doubt.

When people go on Holliday they often take some strong plastic bed risers with them, these can be purchased from a chemist or even online on ebay and they fit inside each other so don’t take up too much room.

Sleeping flat for a week may well make the veins swell again but over time the veins will become less able to stretch and should resist pressure changes from sleeping flat occasionally.

Andrew

[/quote]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: geordiejulie on 07/08/2009 20:38:12
Hi Andrew

Just a quick note.

In November of last year I noticed some spotting in front of my eyes. Being a regular user of glasses since the age of about 12 I went to my optician and had a thorough eye examination and drops put in my eyes so the optician could check my eye health. The optician reported the backs of my eyes as healthy with a slight change of prescription. The spotting he put down to a general degeneration of pieces of gel detaching themselves from the back of the eye. This is still apparent from time to time.
 
What has amazed me today though is that I found my prescription from last November and also the one I had from the year previous to this(2007)
There are improvements to the sight in both eyes! This is down in black and white and quite frankly I'm stunned. I mean when the optician said there were changes I naturally presumed he meant worse, not better!
 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/08/2009 09:04:07
Hi Alun Hi Julie

Great to hear from you both again.

Your pictures viewed larger in this link: http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn365/alun006/POINT-1-IBT.jpg Are amazing, phenomenal improvements in your varicose veins. The skin colour on your legs is far healthier and indicates you could be wearing shorts outdoors. I remember you saying you have done so while visiting the beach.

And let’s not forget that you no longer need to wear those dreadful compressing stockings. I saw a guy down in Brixham who had a pair on only yesterday as we drove through. Definitely not good for ones self esteem.

The large varicose vein on the back of your leg “calf muscle area” has not been mentioned, could we have an updated photograph of it please?

Looking forward very much to when your son starts the inclined therapy too.

The pain that has been constantly present since birth in you knee and now only present occasionally is another pointer to what is happening to the nervous system and adds credence to my extensive work helping people with neurological conditions.

Neuropathic pain does not respond well to medication.
Multiple sclerosis:
Pain in particular often becomes more intense when people sleep flat. I suspect this is pressure related. Yet people with ms that use the Inclined Bed method find that retiring to bed provides a much-welcomed relief from pain.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/08/2009 13:44:23
Hi Andrew

Just a quick note.

In November of last year I noticed some spotting in front of my eyes. Being a regular user of glasses since the age of about 12 I went to my optician and had a thorough eye examination and drops put in my eyes so the optician could check my eye health. The optician reported the backs of my eyes as healthy with a slight change of prescription. The spotting he put down to a general degeneration of pieces of gel detaching themselves from the back of the eye. This is still apparent from time to time.
 
What has amazed me today though is that I found my prescription from last November and also the one I had from the year previous to this(2007)
There are improvements to the sight in both eyes! This is down in black and white and quite frankly I'm stunned. I mean when the optician said there were changes I naturally presumed he meant worse, not better!
 

Julie, thank you so much for posting these observations. Many such reports have been provided from people using Inclined Therapy over the years. One would think that the RNIB charity would welcome such a practical simple application for assisting someone with visual impairment, yet they failed miserably to respond when two ladies unrelated and both registered as severely visually impaired with supposedly irreversible optic nerve damage both tilted their beds around the same time during a pilot study for people with ms. Both ophthalmologists wrote to me within a month of each other asking the same question.  “How can two blocks of wood under a persons bed restore a persons sight?” This is exactly what happened to two totally unrelated people in two different towns over the same time scale.

One would have believed at the time that any charity that collects money for the blind would be compelled to investigate such claims. Wrong, that familiar brick wall appears in so many places. Guess they care more about their £millions than finding out if tilting a bed could help a person see again.

I will post the letters from the RNIB and my letters for all to see when I have time.

Thanks again Julie

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 08/08/2009 19:24:08
Hi Andrew

Actually, interesting enough.

I have not had shorts on when going outside.

I am sure that this will happen more and more in time.

But does bring up the question, that the colour is not down to the sun.

Just wanted you to know this.........

Thanks alun
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 09/08/2009 23:39:18
Hi Andrew,

I found out about you through your posts on EarthClinic and your link to YouTube. I read all nine pages on this site along with YouTube information.

Last night my husband and I started sleeping on about a 61/2” incline on an 80” long mattress (Queen Size). My main reason is to see if it removes the excess fluid in my ankles. The secondary reason is to see if it will eventually eliminate the pain in my thighs I get from pressure sitting or laying down too long. The pain is a new problem in the past two years. I have self-diagnosed myself as having primary lipeodema (as doctors ignore the problem). Here is where I got my information http://www.lymphoedema.org/lsn/lsn070.htm  This may also help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipedema  I am not sure if the bed will help with that, maybe you can advise so I don’t have false hopes. I will still incline for the ankles regardless.

I slept well the first night on the incline. I did not have any problems slipping down the bed which I expected. I did not feel any different when I woke up this morning. I took photographs yesterday so I will check-out how to open a Flickr account and upload them. When I see a difference I will take more photos and submit them to this site.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/08/2009 09:51:56
More reports from people using Inclined Therapy: http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/incline-bed-therapy.html   

Hi Maureen

Thanks for joining the study. Your condition should respond well based upon others with lymphoedema, admittedly not lipoedema but the principles behind the inclined bed should initiate an increase in urination initially over 4 weeks. Fingers crossed that this will be the case as you are the first person with lipoedema to test this.

Many times I have observed people with acute oedema problems and some times I have mentioned that it would be a good idea to research Inclined Therapy on the Internet to them without saying anything about myself or how it works in the hope that some of these people will find their way to trying this simple therapy.

It causes me grave concern that for the sake of setting up a controlled study and confirming the efficacy once and for all of this common sense approach to many medical conditions, the majority of the medical and nursing profession would rather maintain their ignorance indefinitely. How long will it take for this paradigm to become mainstream and help people with medical conditions that are never going to respond to the accepted models of treatment?

Perhaps only the people ignoring this can give us an answer.

Nevertheless, we must wait and see what happens now that you have tilted your bed.
If you could ask your doctor to take an interest in what you are doing he / she might be able to help monitor your condition more closely and record what happens or at least give us a comment in a few months time.

Initially there may be a shift of fluids down towards the ankles and some increase in swelling as the salty fluids migrate towards the lower limbs, but this should prove temporary while the lymphatic system begins to deal with the excess fluid more efficiently and moves it back into the blood stream where the kidneys will filter it and excrete it into the urine, hence the need to monitor urine output.

Sincerely

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Ely on 12/08/2009 15:52:40
Hello Andrew! 

While doing research on remedies for varicose veins, I came across your study.  I am intrigued.  I convinced my husband to put bricks under the head of our bed to incline it.  It is currently up 5".  I am 35 years old with three children (ages 10, 8 and 10 months) and I've had varicose veins for about 15 years.  I've already had surgery (VNUS closure procedure)about 3 years ago and I've experienced new varicosities since then.  I'm interested in your non-surgical approach.  I am hoping I see an improvement.  They are so unsightly and they've been aching as of late.  I had my hubby take a pic of the worst offender that extends from the top of my inner left thigh down to my knee.  After he took the picture, we slept inclined for the first time last night. My husband said he kept slipping down!  LOL!  I didn't experience that problem.  It will take some getting used to sleeping like that, but it's worth a try.  I've got nothing to lose, right?  I will keep you informed of how it goes and if I notice any benefits.  I plan on giving it at least 4 weeks and will post pictures of my leg before and after.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/08/2009 09:53:14
Ely

Thank you for joining us and for sharing your observations and experiences using Inclined Therapy.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 13/08/2009 10:17:57
I've now been sleeping inclined for 22 nights.  The vein on my calf is flat when I wake in the morning so much so that you can't really even see the vein which looks faint and thin.  As soon as I stand up, the vein bulges but instead of it taking until late afternoon to flatten, it seems to flatten again at about 8am and stays that way all day with possibly a small area of very slight bulge (much less than before) when I am exercising and it is under pressure.

On Monday evening, it was flat and I went for a hike.  It took a lot longer of me walking fast and hard on uneven ground with hills in the heat before it started to bulge as before but then when I have cooled down it goes flat again.

I'm hoping eventually that I will wake with it flat and it will stay that way when  I get up and start moving around in the morning. 

Does this sound like IBT is working?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/08/2009 19:48:36
I've now been sleeping inclined for 22 nights.  The vein on my calf is flat when I wake in the morning so much so that you can't really even see the vein which looks faint and thin.  As soon as I stand up, the vein bulges but instead of it taking until late afternoon to flatten, it seems to flatten again at about 8am and stays that way all day with possibly a small area of very slight bulge (much less than before) when I am exercising and it is under pressure.

On Monday evening, it was flat and I went for a hike.  It took a lot longer of me walking fast and hard on uneven ground with hills in the heat before it started to bulge as before but then when I have cooled down it goes flat again.

I'm hoping eventually that I will wake with it flat and it will stay that way when  I get up and start moving around in the morning. 

Does this sound like IBT is working?
Indeed it does Denise.

Thank you for updating your progress so far.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 17/08/2009 09:01:01
 Rainbowdaby said...
VERY WELL DONE Andrew!

I have been using his Inclined bed therapy for the last NINE years and I would never go back to sleeping on a flat bed. When I left the oil and gas industry in Aberdeen I had major problems in my spine, sciatica varicous viens, circulating problems etc. etc. I was taking a bucket full of pain killers. That was EIGHT years ago.

Now at 72 years young. I have not taken any drugs (of any description) in the last SEVEN years. I genuinly feel I have taken total responsiblity of my health. No need to buy expensive health insurance. You have saved me a lot of money and given me a lot of long term happiness Andrew.

I am extremely grateful to you. Keep up the good work!

8:17 AM


A reply from my blog.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: carreerslut on 17/08/2009 10:48:16
Not sure what this is all about, too tired to read it all, but inclining the bed is NOT a permanent solution to varicose veins.  Elevating the legs above the heart will of course make the journey of blood to the legs more difficult, and the veins will shrink.  Result.  Then what?  Either you leave the legs permanently raised, lose the veins, but also lose the blood supply, leading to excrutiating pain and loss of oxygenation to surrounding tissue ultimately, such that the limb deteriorates and deteriorates until gangrene sets in.... Or you do the obvious thing and put it down again.  Leg saved, varicose veins back. 

Your legs need a blood supply to function.  The weak valves in the  veins are a problem, but cutting off the blood supply to the whole leg is like using a hammer to crack a nut.  The more common approach is to cut off the blood supply to one or two of the most troublesome veins, as long as the blood has somewhere else to go.  Not a great solution, and ultimately if you have a genetic tendency to weak and bulging veins not a permanent one, but is the tradditional method.

Best home remedies?  Keep feet elevated for SHORT periods, definitely not overnight.  Hours of blood supply being cut off is not good.  They used to recommend raising the base of the mattress.  Now it is seen to only make the pain worse as the blood can't reach the feet - particularly if there is PAD.  Do not squash your veins eg. by sitting with legs crossed.  Keep off your feet i.e. don't stand excessively, which causes blood to pool in the legs.  Get your IGm blood levels checked for 'stickiness' - may be you need to take a blood thinner.  Watch out for clots in the veins which cause localised pain, swelling and fever - known as phlebitis.  Or live in outer space where there is not the gravity we have here. 

Please though let your legs have their share of blood, they deserve it as much as the rest of you.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 17/08/2009 14:11:02

Carreerslut

Thankyou for cheering me up this afternoon.

You may find it helpful to actually read the threads including the description of INCLINED NOT ELEVIATED THERAPY.


I have nothing else to say.....

Over to you Andrew K Fletcher

Thankyou alun






Not sure what this is all about, too tired to read it all, but inclining the bed is NOT a permanent solution to varicose veins.  Elevating the legs above the heart will of course make the journey of blood to the legs more difficult, and the veins will shrink.  Result.  Then what?  Either you leave the legs permanently raised, lose the veins, but also lose the blood supply, leading to excrutiating pain and loss of oxygenation to surrounding tissue ultimately, such that the limb deteriorates and deteriorates until gangrene sets in.... Or you do the obvious thing and put it down again.  Leg saved, varicose veins back. 

Your legs need a blood supply to function.  The weak valves in the  veins are a problem, but cutting off the blood supply to the whole leg is like using a hammer to crack a nut.  The more common approach is to cut off the blood supply to one or two of the most troublesome veins, as long as the blood has somewhere else to go.  Not a great solution, and ultimately if you have a genetic tendency to weak and bulging veins not a permanent one, but is the tradditional method.

Best home remedies?  Keep feet elevated for SHORT periods, definitely not overnight.  Hours of blood supply being cut off is not good.  They used to recommend raising the base of the mattress.  Now it is seen to only make the pain worse as the blood can't reach the feet - particularly if there is PAD.  Do not squash your veins eg. by sitting with legs crossed.  Keep off your feet i.e. don't stand excessively, which causes blood to pool in the legs.  Get your IGm blood levels checked for 'stickiness' - may be you need to take a blood thinner.  Watch out for clots in the veins which cause localised pain, swelling and fever - known as phlebitis.  Or live in outer space where there is not the gravity we have here. 

Please though let your legs have their share of blood, they deserve it as much as the rest of you.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 17/08/2009 20:28:38
I'm with you, Alun.  What was that all about elevating the legs and your legs dropping off? :)  We aren't elevating the legs; we are LOWERING them hence INCLINED BED THERAPY and not ELEVATED BED THERAPY!!!!

Anyway, I've been sleeping INCLINED for 4 weeks tomorrow and when I went running tonight according to my hubby who was cycling along behind me, my calf vein was down the whole time until I got home and stopped running when it bulged again.  Some days it stays up longer than others and I have noticed it is worse in really warm weather.  It does stay flat for long periods of time.  It is always flat when I wake in bed in the morning but as soon as I get up it bulges for about an hour or so before lying flat.  Did you find that too?  Will it ultimately lie flat when I get up and stay flat all the time?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 17/08/2009 23:44:28
Hi Andrew,

I have slept on the bed for 9 nights so far. I am very happy to say that I do see a slight reduction in fluid in my ankles. It is not something that others would notice, but I do. The fluid I am referring to is actually accumulated from beside the ankle bone on the inside of my legs down to almost the bottom (heel) of my feet. My ankles are more puffy than fluid like although I am pretty sure it is fluid also. I took “After” photographs today although there is not really anything to see….so far! I took a very short video with my digital camera to try and show the fluid as it does not show up too well in photographs. The video is not very clear but you will see the fluid that I move around with my finger.

The temperature has been around 30 degrees Celsius and 62 % humidity for the past week or so. I am mentioning this because you commented on this to Alun in a previous post. It seems to have a bearing on varicose veins; I am not sure if it affects fluid?

I have not been to a doctor for many years so I can not be monitored. No doctor is interested in this problem as they just ignore it because they do not know anything about it. I have been to Naturopathic Doctors over time and I do take care of my health. I will eventually go to a regular doctor someday. I have gone to the walk-in clinics for massage and compression stocking prescriptions only.

I am having problems registering an account with Yahoo so I can register with Flickr. I am hoping the website is having problems and I can get through tomorrow. I should have two accounts with them by now.

I decided to post this while waiting for the photos to be uploaded so you know what is happening.

Maureen

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 18/08/2009 20:29:15
Hi Andrew,

I created my third account with Yahoo today and it finally took! So I have set-up an account with Flickr and uploaded photos and video. I redid the bad video I took yesterday in better lighting and I was not holding the camera as I was taping myself so it was not too close which made for better video.

I am now trying to figure out how to upload to this site even though you will not see a difference yet, just getting ready for the future  [:)]

If nothing turns up, you will know I had a problem. I will keep trying.

Maureen
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/08/2009 21:07:59
Carreerslut,

You have addressed Inclined therapy as a person would reading from the literature rather than from the thread. Inclined Therapy is the opposite way around to what you have suggested and I would agree that serious complications can follow prolonged head down tilt. in fact, the first post addresses this and referes to NASA paying youngsters handsmoely for remaining on a bed sloping head down.

If you find time, the thread does contain some interesting observations from people sleeping head up rather than head down.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/08/2009 21:11:22
Anyway, I've been sleeping INCLINED for 4 weeks tomorrow and when I went running tonight according to my hubby who was cycling along behind me, my calf vein was down the whole time until I got home and stopped running when it bulged again.  Some days it stays up longer than others and I have noticed it is worse in really warm weather.  It does stay flat for long periods of time.  It is always flat when I wake in bed in the morning but as soon as I get up it bulges for about an hour or so before lying flat.  Did you find that too?  Will it ultimately lie flat when I get up and stay flat all the time?

Hopefully Denise your veins will slowly but surely remain flat. If you check out my wifes vein picture you can see the effect of many years of Inclined Therapy on the Varicose vein, although the vein became flat and ceased to ache within 4 weeks it continued to improve. Although visible it is obvious the vein no longer bulges.

Thanks for the update
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/08/2009 21:18:41
Hi Andrew,

I created my third account with Yahoo today and it finally took! So I have set-up an account with Flickr and uploaded photos and video. I redid the bad video I took yesterday in better lighting and I was not holding the camera as I was taping myself so it was not too close which made for better video.

I am now trying to figure out how to upload to this site even though you will not see a difference yet, just getting ready for the future  [:)]

If nothing turns up, you will know I had a problem. I will keep trying.

Maureen


Thanks Maureen.

If you click the preview tab below in between post and spell check it opens up the tools to add photographs and video

The best way to show a video is to upload it to Youtube and copy the link to it into your post, this way people can view it. Pictures is a little easier. You grab the direct link from Flicker or Photobucket etc and paste it into the post  between these two boxes and providing your link is clean and does not already contain these boxes (http://)it should work fine. You can check your post in preview mode.

This will be a great help for everyone, thank you.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 24/08/2009 03:23:29
Hi Andrew, Daryl, Alun006 and anyone that can help me with uploading photos!

I have spent days on Flickr and it seems that to view a photo the person has to have a Yahoo account. Then I opened up an account with Photobucket. I saw Andrew's and Alun006's photos there. It seems that when I invite someone to see a photo, the whole album is shown. I then created a separate album with two photos and it looks like a link to Photobucket is always shown. When you guys upload a photo, that is all we see. That is how I want to do it. Can anyone help me? I am ready to forget about the photos. I wonder if this is the reason we have not seen Denise's photos yet?

Maureen
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 24/08/2009 10:32:42
Hi Maureen

I'm glad I'm not the only one!  I created a Photobucket account but can't get the photos into this thread!  I tried for ages then gave up :(
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 24/08/2009 22:08:38
Hi Denise & Maureen

OPTION 1

I can add the pictures for you with your names at the top on one of my thread if that will help.

Just email me the photos with the information direct.

Option 2

Or if you have msn, you can add me and we can go through the process online together.

alun006
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/08/2009 10:02:03
Using the Image link from a photobucket account to show pictures in your post:

Choose the code that has the [ img ][ /img ] boxes either side from photobucket in the drop down box, click on this link titled img code in photobucket highlite it and right click while on the image code / link and click copy. Go to your post and right click in the window that contains your text, click paste. Job done :)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 25/08/2009 20:24:49
Hi Andrew,

I followed your instructions and also varied them because I could not get it to work! However, my husband told me how it works in an e-mail is different than in a post to a website. So I tried what you said and it worked!

Denise, you were probably trying to send your photos in an e-mail to test it like I was and had the same problems.

Alun006, Thank you for offering to help me.

Here are two photos of my ankles. There is not much difference in the photos yet but I can see the difference. When a photo shows a significant difference, I will post again.


(http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu302/BeHappy-07/To%20Upload-1/2009Aug8BeforeIBT103.jpg)


V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).

(http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu302/BeHappy-07/To%20Upload-1/2009Aug179NightsIBT105.jpg)


V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).


Maureen

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/08/2009 09:15:15
Congrats on your new found IT skills Maureen. Great job of the photographs by your husband :)

We could do with a system like the Kings shilling in a pint glass to pressgang a few more people into our study, so if you can think of anyone with varicose veins, leg ulcer, oedema and an open mind, please mention this study to them and ask them to consider joining us.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 26/08/2009 20:58:09
As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/08/2009 22:41:07
As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]


Professor Zamboni et al and Dr Franz Shelling are pioneers working on abnormal jugular and cerebrospinal veins that are swollen or varicose. Zamboni's paper on chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency in 100% of patients with multiple sclerosis is attracting a great deal of attention with regards to a stent surgical approach to alter the blockage and improve circulation which is thought to be causing a reflux or back flow of blood into the brain that is responsible for the plaques found in ms.

Inclined Therapy has already been shown to positively affect the bodily functions in several neurological conditions, including ms. Over a minimum of 4 months avoiding sleeping on a flat bed. Based on 15 years of research and independent reports from people trying I.T. it appears that the circulation improves in many cases without the need for surgery, which is the point being made in this thread about varicose veins and oedema no requiring surgery, which incidentally is destined to require more surgery over the years.

So the track record for sleeping inclined as opposed to sleeping flat is looking pretty conclusive. http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6755-days0-orderasc-120.html

That said, experimenting with posture to target individual veins has been done for many years raising the legs and upper torso, bending the body in the middle as is the case with most electrically adjustable beds.

The problem with this approach is that the spine is continually under compression and so is the soft tissue under the pelvis, increasing the risk of pressure sores and at best only providing temporary relief from varicose veins and oedema.

I have mentioned before that an exception to the generally beneficial relief found from I.T. is when a person has a collapsed vein, generally injury related the partially already closed vein could close further when the bed is inclined. Whether this would affect your particular problem either way can only be based upon your careful monitoring of the vein/veins in question over time to see what the outcome maybe.

Sleeping prone or supine or indeed on either side should only marginally alter the situation either way on an inclined bed, but could significantly alter the swelling situation while on a flat bed.

I hope I have understood your question and have offered some useful advice.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 27/08/2009 07:28:29
Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/08/2009 09:22:47
Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

Got it now, I think. Your posture suggestion is equivalent of hanging your legs over the edge of a bed while lowering the angle of the bed so you are tilted back.

According to the on gravity assisted circulation tracing the flow of solutes through the arteries in relation to posture and the location of the kidneys is very important in order to avoid salt build up and possible overload in the blood and lymphatic systems.

My wife and I experimented with head down posture and found that salts did not arrive in the urine in the same quantity as sleeping on an incline, in fact the urine produced over several days of sleeping head down at five degrees was near water density, while the urine produced on an inclined bed was much denser than urine produced sleeping horizontal or five degree head down, or that produced during normal daily activity, indicating that a detoxification of the whole body was taking place. With this in mind, replacing some of the excreted potassium salts might be prudent over many years.

People taking prescription drugs have found that they are either more effective sleeping inclined or their uptake is improved on an incline or that their body does not require quite as much as before the bed was tilted. This is mirrored by astronauts in micro-gravity (orbiting the Earth) where the drug dose requires increasing. Prolonged head down bed rest and prolonged flat bedrest are thought to mirror the detrimental effects of space travel and are used to induce many of the age related problems we will al eventually face, including muscular atrophy, osteporosis, arythmia, poor circulation, visual degeneration, etc etc.

In fact my wife and I both ended up with chronic diarrhoea as a result of head down tilt. This posture has also been used for obesity so is understood by the medical profession. I think The actor Marlon Brando was sleeping this way in order to lose weight.

With this in mind, I would be reluctant to sleep that way again for any length of time given the nausea, headache, diarrhoea and balance problems we experienced testing it.

If you do decide to go for it please let us know as I would be very interested to learn what happens.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 27/08/2009 17:16:34
Thanks for your informative comments. Will simply raise the head end of my bed to the suggested incline, in the hope, that this will let me enjoy my bedroom again. I did some reading on what I found on this site on ITB an MS, not for myself, but mostly for my doctor, as we live in a region evidencing an unusually high concentration of MS sufferers, affecting also some members of my extended family.

A lifelong wearer of high heeled shoes, is there anyone else, who feels uncomfortable on flat feet? My heels go on the moment I step out of bed (or chair for the time being). A pair of cowhide sling back clunkers is my favourite at this time. 3 1/2" or 9 1/2 cm high, very chunky, solid heels.

My doctor will recommend flat shoes of course. Nevertheless, I will have to unnake myself a bit and finally discuss this issue with him, to see what else can be done. At the medical clinic where I go, we some pretty progressive practitioners of medicine.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,

Dagmar.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 28/08/2009 23:41:41
Hi Andrew:

It's a go. Will start experimenting with a suitable structure tonight, plus perhaps get some foam padding for my mattress. They advertise memory foam a lot here. Will see. If it can be arranged, my doc has agreed to take the before and after pictures. I just felt that this would provide more credibility than pictures taken by a medically unscientific, unnaked sufferer. Be patient, four weeks you all say.

Thanks again. Best,


Dagmar.

P.S. Although I asked my doctor specifically to take a good look at my feet while standing barefoot on the floor, high heels were never mentioned. Seems they are a 'no issue'.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 29/08/2009 08:35:21
Hi Dagmar and a big thankyou for joining our little experiment with posture for varicose veins and oedema.

Having the doctor take the photographs is going to prove very interesting. Hopefully your doctor will be able to offer a comment in a few weeks time.

The heels you mention, I have also thought about how and why people manage to walk in these. One would think that the discomfort would prove far too uncomfortable. But there might just be some additional boost to the circulation going on that affords prolonged use of them. This might also be why returning back to flat shoes becomes alien to someone using high heels.

We use a memory foam mattress, some people compain they they become too warm on a foam mattress but this does not appear to be the case on an inclined bed, although a friend of mine who has taken the angle to an extream did find she became too warm and she returned back to a coil sprung mattress. Her conditions is psoriasis btw, which probably affects the natural cooling of the skin. That said she is completely clear most of the time since tilting the bed and only shows 3 smal patches on elblows and name of back when she has some return of P. This is in direct contrast to her skin before tilting the bed, where she had considerable problems accompanied by joint problems due to the type of psoriasis she has.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 29/08/2009 16:14:08
Hi Dagmar,

I wore 3 1/2" high heels for over 35 years. I wore them all day at work but changed to flats when I got home. I always had a pull type feeling in my calves (as if there were a guy wire pulling tight in my calf muscles) and could not bend over on my hunkers even if you paid me. It did not stop me walking a lot, cycling, rebounding etc. Just any kind of stretching was impossible for me. Finally I went to a Massage Therapist that did a very slight sideway pull back and forth on my calves and although it felt like nothing was being done it worked amazingly well for me. I went for many treatments after that to keep flexible then stopped. That was over 6 years ago and I still have no problem with it. So it may be worth it for you to try massage. 

Maureen
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 29/08/2009 16:32:54
Foam should not cause me any problems then, a I am always on the cold side. I am almost totally marblized with the Raynaud's blue tinge, which instantly disappears when lying down. My ankles are in very good shape, my legs, although not lacking in prominent veins, are very muscular, tops of my feet are covered with distended veins, which will become barely visible when in my shoes and wearing my other standby, also a lifelong habit, a regular pair of nylons, only very lightly constrictive. I do pay attention to waistbands with these, as some manufacturers make their 'one size fits all' waistbands even too tight for me. I am a very small person, 5'4", far removed from any weight problems, and have always avoided tight clothing.

When first looking at your website, your claim that varicose veins can revert, did not seem outlandish at all to me. I have one instance on my body, where this occurred, but I do not know how. All that is left, is one tiny bluish spot, size of the letter 'o', and barely visible. Original length about an 1 1/2", located directly under my navel. The reason for conducting my most recent search on reversal, was exactly, to find the answer to my own observations. After all, there had to be other people who have experienced reversal, even though not working on it deliberately. What I found instead, is deliberation, quite an improvement over unintentional. I am not complaining.


Thanks, again. Best,

Dagmar.





Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 29/08/2009 16:40:35
For Maureen: Thanks for your input. My heels go on the morning, and only come off when about to lie down. No muscles pulling, even when doing hands on the floor exercises with knees straight, feet about 1 1/2' apart.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: freeone on 31/08/2009 15:46:25
Hi Andrew , I was diagnosed about eleven years ago with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis .I decided three days ago to try the inclined bed therapy. First couple of days i felt the old usual pins and needles aches pins etc. But today when i awoke  i could hardly stand with the pain in my lower back .I was taken aback because as i walked down stairs i felt like what i can describe only as electric shocks go up and down my spine followed by big waves i also felt something shift . I have never felt this clear for many a year.I am on LDN and although it has helped me in other ways i can only put this shift and clear headiness down to your inclined bed therapy . I will continue to sleep this way and i will keep a record of any changes that occurs and I truly want to Thankyou for posting your video and your inclined bed therapy idea on youtube. Hope I have posted this in correct area.
Many Thanks
Vivienne
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 31/08/2009 18:56:04
Hi Vivienne

Great to hear from you.

This thread is the varicose veins and oedema study but I am sure no one will mind you posting about your own experience using Inclined Therapy here.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.50 this is the thread where you will find more information of use to you.

If you could also post your observatons here: http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90

It would be a great help as this is an MS forum and a friendly place like the NS forum.

The shooting pains is unusual to begin after a few days and is indicative that you may well experience significant recovery in the short term. I must warn you though pain is usually a primary indication of an imminent gain and pain can usually become intense as nerve pathways open up. But if you think about it for a while it makes sense as a connection with the brain from an area that was devoid of sensation allbeit a discomfort does lend itself to thinking that some damage must have been repaired for this to happen.

The first two weeks can be a bit of a rolercoaster ride but after this things settle down a bit in RR ms.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 31/08/2009 18:58:01
Alun, WOW what a difference.

And you no longer wear compression stockings that's a double WOW. Hope some vascular surgeons are paying attention here. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: freeone on 31/08/2009 22:01:20
oops sorry for posting in wrong forum [:I]..thanks for the links...
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 03/09/2009 17:27:28
Someone recently mentioned 'Lifestyle" on this Forum; cannot find the entry at the moment. Below a link to something that can be managed without great effort:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#cleave

The Saccharine Disease, BRISTOL, JOHN WRIGHT & SONS LIMITED 1974
Chapter IV Varicose Veins, Deep Venous Thrombosis, Varicocele, and Haemorrhoids; This author offers a highly plausible theory on causation and on how to arrest further development, but no suggestions with respect to reversal. Simple sugars were discussed along the same lines already by a German team of researchers in the early sixties. Will provide Author, Title and link (if available) as soon as I can locate the information.

Best,


Dagmar
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 08/09/2009 08:32:15
hey guys,

this is my latest photo update, taken on saturday around 3pm on a fairly cold day
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/022-2.jpg)
i think you will all agree it is actually starting to look worse rather than better!
now i don't want to be classed as negative but i have obvious concerns about my legs,
as you can see i had shaved my legs about a month ago, this was to get a better idea on whether the veins had improved
i have been on ibt for nearly five months and in that time i have, lost weight,
cycled only for exercize, not strained at all, and consumed plenty of fluid,

andrew can you please advise, i don't want to stop the ibt but after seeing my leg on saturday i am slightly concerned that although this treatment may work for some, it may actually harm others,the bloating on the side of my knee is a real worry?

alun, judging by your photos you seem to have made improvements in the last year, and as you said previously they do sometimes look worse before they look better, do you still have days or times during the day, when the veins look as bad as they did before you started ibt?

many thanks
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/09/2009 09:48:47
Hi Daryl thanks for getting back to us and for providing the new photograph.
Here is the first photograph you provided on the 19/05/2009 for comparison.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa193/kowalski74/006-10.jpg)

You say in your post that you had been on IBT for 5 months, How does the VV compare to before the bed was tilted?

There will be times for most people that veins inflate more and become more visible. Temperature, humidity, exercise, posture, tight elasticated stockings, all need to be taken into account.

It may turn out that you are indeed an exception to the reports from others and you are not being negative by stating what you are observing, this is exactly what we need to determine the effects, negatives or positive it is still an observation made by someone using the inclined method.

Personally would stop wearing those ankle socks, I did a long time ago :) Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin needs ditching or at least the elestic stretching until it relaxes more. This could well be the cause of the vein on your foot enlarging. Those particular socks restrict / narrow the vessels at the foot, coupled with the trainers you wear and how tight the laces are you have an effective Tourniquet, not unlike that used by nurses taking blood from veins in the arms and very efficient at causing veins to swell up to make them easier to locate.

From your recent photograph it does look like there is an increase in swelling. Could you take 3 photographs morning afternoon and evening without the equivelent ankle sock tourniquet for comparison and can you remember what time the first photograph was taken and what you were doing prior to it being taken?

Thanks again Daryl, very useful report and photographs.

Andrew

 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: daryl l on 08/09/2009 12:42:50
hey andrew thanks for the quick reply,

my comparison from before i started ibt is simply that my vein has swollen more than before, whether it be caused by ibt or simply the fact that is was just a matter of time before it got worse thats what im trying to establish

the only real difference i have noticed in myself is that before the veins would actually hurt(unless i wore a compression stocking) and now they don't! but i do wonder whether this may simply be the fact that it was winter prior to my ibt!

also i must say that neither myself nor my girlfriend has suffered any kind of illness ie colds, hayfever, or the dreaded swine since we started tilting the bed (thats a definate plus point)

as for the trainers, i hear what you are saying there:)they are actually boots im wearing there and the socks pull up a lot higher than my ankles, i must admit i rarely wear those and on saturday the vein was the worst its ever looked, and it did stay up pretty much all day!
so i totally understand your point about the tourniquet scenario, really i suppose it just shows my vein bloating at its very worst!

im not going to stop using ibt, and i will take those three photos as you ask, i just hope the bloody thing doesn't spread any further up or down my leg!!

ps is the whole point of ibt to actually make the veins disappear completely for life, or just look better at certain times during the day?

kind regards again d
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 09/09/2009 10:23:55
Hi Daryl

Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin should be avoided, socks in particular are at the narrowest point in the leg where all of the veins and arteries converge, so this is very important when paying attention to your veins.

Have your blood pressure checked too. This is also important to monitor.

And last of all you mention compression stockings. Have you stopped using these now? If so then some additional swelling initially after you have stopped using them is a logical observation.

You asked if Inclined Therapy only provides temporary relief or permanent relief from varicose veins. I can only relate to my wifes vein since end of 1994. It has never returned to it's walnut size and aching. And Penny a good friend who had a large varicose vein running down the inside of her leg from thigh to ankle who was pictured on the beach showing clearly that the varicose vein has become normal in diameter and visibility since 1995.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.50

So we need to find out if it is your tight socks and boots that caused the vein to swell.

In the morning before you get out of bed, can your wife take a photograph of the vein with you lying down. This should show the vein to be completely flattened as was the case with Alun's.

Andrew
 

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Ely on 10/09/2009 17:06:46
Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/09/2009 09:13:01
Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

Hi Ericka. Maybe if you lower the bed to a 4 inch incline and gradually raised it your husband might accept it better. Only way you could have a tilted bed is to use two single beds pushed together and yours tilted, or make a wedge to place under your side of the mattress.

Bet the veins stopped aching during walks? especially uphill right? :)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Denise on 11/09/2009 09:29:45
Hello all

I still have to get these pics on here.  Alun, if I could have your email address, I will mail you the pics to upload on my behalf if your kind offer still stands?  I don't have the patience! :)

I have now been sleeping inclined for 7 weeks.  We went to Barcelona for 5 days and took blocks to incline the bed over there so I haven't missed a night! :)

My calf vein is showing definate signs of improvement although I tend to forget this and get despondent when it does bulge from time to time.

When I get up in the morning it no longer bulges straight away and when it does it is much flatter and not so much of it shows.  it only takes a very short while of me being up and about before it disappears.  It seems to completely disappear to the point where it is difficult to even see the vein far more than it stands out.  I love seeing my calf with no bulging vein :)

even  when I go running, it seems to stay flat for the duration of my run, bulges when I stop running and cool down and then disappears again shortly after.  This is consistent with the reaction of the veins in my arms which also bulge when I exercise then lay flat again when I have stopped and cool back down.  I guess this is ho normal veins react.

I feel like my calf vein is starting to act like a normal vein and I am fairly confident that if I continue with IBT that it may eventually not bulge at any time.  Fingers crossed.

I would just say to Ericka that 4 weeks is probably not long enough to notice any significant changes in the appearance of the veins and you really need to persevere.  I can't believe the improvements in Alun's veins.  That calf vein looks fab compare to 14 months ago.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 20/09/2009 20:20:37
Hi Andrew,

It’s been six weeks now that I have been sleeping on an Inclined Bed (IB). So far I can not see any further improvement in the amount of fluid/puffiness in my ankles since I last reported after 9 nights on IB. However, this is what I did notice. I had taken a three week break from jogging on a treadmill and rebounding on a mini-trampoline before sleeping on an IB. Also the same three weeks break from receiving Low Intensity Laser Therapy (L.I.L.T.) on my thighs and ankles for pain relief and fluid reduction. After resuming jogging while on the IB, I felt the usual soreness/stiffness that one gets when starting exercise. It seemed to be too much achiness for such a short break so I do not know if it was only exercise soreness or something due to Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT). I still feel slightly uncomfortable in my calves. I have not resumed L.I.L.T to date as I wanted to see what IBT would do on its own. My pressure pain level has reduced from a 7/10 to a 2/10 in the past week or so which is great!

L.I.L.T. history; In March 2008 I started with a pressure pain level of 6/10. After about 9 treatments the pain level reduced for the first time. I had a total of 20 treatments by October and ended with a pain level of 2/10. My insurance ran out so I waited until June 2009. The pain stayed away for about six months then gradually came back, this time to a level 7 which may likely be due to my tolerance level being lowered, I am not sure.
I have had 8 treatments so far in 2009 then stopped. Most people only need 1-10 L.I.L.T. treatments for injuries because they have a one time injury. Since I seem to collect and store fluid on a daily basis due to some malfunction it only makes sense that without continued treatment the problem will not remain fixed. So now with Inclined Bed Therapy and L.I.L.T. combined which I know both works for me I want to go back for the remainder of treatments I have insurance coverage for in 2009.

I will not book any appointments until I hear from you in case you want me to wait a bit longer. The sooner I go back for treatments the better for me since the weather will get bad later on and cause problems.

Maureen
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 21/09/2009 09:31:40
Maurine it is not for me to want you to do anything. Take from this therapy what you want and share your experience with us here, this is the only requirement.

I will say that the pain in your legs should become less using I.T based on many people reporting significant reductions in pain.

If you are comfortable with testing the inclined bed and the pain is not increasing then curiosity might get the better of you.

Talk to your doctor about what you are doing as he/she might be interested in what you have to say as the weeks go by.

The discomfort in your calf’s, would it be similar to discomfort from working out or exercising as if the muscles were becoming tighter?

Are you still wearing compression stocking, if so have you considered seeing what happens over 24 hours without wearing any?

Thanks for the update and fingers crossed over the coming weeks.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: snoop40 on 27/09/2009 10:30:34
hi...i have a question: i'm 19 years old and i have so large veins on my legs...is that healthy?what do you think

thanks [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: snoop40 on 27/09/2009 10:31:32
another pic of my legs.... [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: snoop40 on 27/09/2009 10:34:00
i had those veins sice i was 15 [ Invalid Attachment ]  
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/09/2009 13:35:36
Hi Snoop

Impressive veins, must admit they don't look varicose but more like healthy over inflated veins that one would expect from a person lifting weights etc.

It would be very interesting to learn if Inclined therapy alters the size of your veins.

Has anyone on the forum any knowledge of such veins and can shed some light on the subject for Snoop?

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 28/09/2009 10:24:30
Been having a think about your swollen veins. Could be worth having a doplar examination of the larger veins in the neck to make sure there are no kinks or twists in them that could be causing the pressure in the veins to back up. Look up Professor zamboni and chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency. Not saying that this is a problem. Just another avenue worth exploring.

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: snoop40 on 28/09/2009 11:20:04
thanks for you advice...however i have big veins all over my body especially on my legs arms and neck [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: snoop40 on 28/09/2009 11:55:22
my longest vein...i think its very unatractive  [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Dustine1017 on 01/10/2009 04:51:02
Are you really a 19-year old? I think that's all because when you are washing your feet even though you are too tired. Are these veins aching? Then, you must go to the doctor to check it up.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: RD on 01/10/2009 05:41:43
Has anyone on the forum any knowledge of such veins and can shed some light on the subject for Snoop?

Defective heart valve or "hole in heart (http://www.childrenfirst.nhs.uk/teens/health/conditions/h/hole-in-the-heart.html)" may be responsible. Definitely see a doctor.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: bam on 09/10/2009 04:30:32
I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 09/10/2009 08:25:04
I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.

Thanks for letting us know about your experience using Inclined Therapy Barn, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: bam on 09/10/2009 18:36:30
Andrew, I'm glad I found IBT but I have to be honest and admit that I have not been using it.  Its partly laziness but also I feel like I've been getting the benefits in another way .  Around the time that I discovered IBT I also found out how the modern toilet is one of the worst offenders to health known to man.  In a way IBT led me to it while asking in what other ways that I'm not aware of am I misusing/abusing my body.  This led me to look at diet/posture and then I stumbled on this site http://www.naturesplatform.com/health_benefits.html that discusses how the proper way to eliminate is in the squat position and that we are not physically suited to sit while eliminating.  Now it is also interesting to note that the platform that is sold on the site is not a flat platform but the creator has it inclined for people who can't stay balanced due to weight and atrophied leg muscles from lack of use (is there a link with IBT? Vericose Veins?).  Also on this site there is a small reference to the modern toilet as contributing to vericose veins. http://www.toilet-related-ailments.com/history-of-the-pedestal-toilet.html.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/10/2009 09:09:53
I too have mentioned many times about the pressure from the good old toilet seat causing constriction on the vessels as the pelvis plus our weight presses down on the skin fat and muscle compressing the vascular network within. This is inevitably going to cause back pressure into the arteries.

A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate. I suspected that prolonged use of a toilet possibly due to constipation or even sitting on the loo reading a newspaper which is not uncommon could well have caused the rise in arterial BP that triggered the stroke.

The same principle applies or should I say must apply to the flesh and vessels on the soles and heels of our feet when we stand still for long periods. We have all observed the funny videos of the groom or bride standing motionless at a wedding collapsing without any prior warning.

Guards on duty face the same problem and have learned to shift weight by rocking from one foot to the other, this would of course induce a pumping action on the fluid filled tissue and assist circulation rather than standing motionless and compromising the circulation. Not rocket science either just good old common sense.

Turning over in bed while sleeping is certainly an automatic reflex to the constant pressure of sleeping in one position.

Thanks for raising these points and please read the entire thread when you have time as there are impressive reports here from people using Inclined therapy.

Andrew

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: RD on 10/10/2009 10:02:27
A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate.

Elderly people "do an Elvis" because straining on the toilet is like the Valsalva maneuver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver#Cardiology) which causes their weak heart to stop, (so it's typically heart failure not stroke when people die on the crapper).


["do an Elvis" = Cardio-vascular event at defecation (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2398836)]
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/10/2009 20:16:48
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1399412.stm

This is interesting RD

Your point about the heart and straining is also valid
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: jpi108 on 13/10/2009 12:25:56
The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123)

Read it closely and you'll see that it doesn't compare squatting to sitting for defaecation. So, the conclusion that sitting is less of a stroke risk is not justified. None of the subjects used the sitting position.

It is well known that defaecation itself causes a spike in blood pressure. Every year thousands of people get strokes and heart attacks straining on western toilets. It is also well known that squatting is more natural and reduces straining. That's why diverticulosis is only found in western countries.

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: bam on 13/10/2009 18:56:53
Hi jpi, is that for Jonathan Isbit ?  I also believe that squatting reduces strain.  There's likely a higher risk for people who are overweight, have atrophied leg muscles and then also people with long legs as these three categories are going to have a hard time staying balanced in the squat position. The incline on that nature's platform is great but I think that the incline should just be for beginners and the goal should be to eventually be able to squat on a flat surface.  Personally I have found that the best elimination can only occur on a flat surface.  That squatting pressure from flat squatting is essential because just as sitting sort of works then squatting on an incline only works better than sitting but the ideal is on a flat surface where the effort to stay balanced presses the thighs on stomach and promotes the natural peristalsis which is somewhat lost with the incline though incline is better than sitting.  For people who have that risk of high blood pressure and stroke risk I think the ideal way to transition to Full squatting can begin by starting on the toes as in this image,

(http://xe7.xanga.com/08b82bf718608221230632/w173539603.jpg)

and then move on to perhaps squatting on an incline as the persons legs get stronger and then full squatting.  You have to realize that when you are eliminating better you are detoxing better and this only improves your blood pressure as your kidney function improves. Hopefully this discussion is not diverting the thread too much, maybe it might need its own thread.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 24/10/2009 09:53:23
The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123)

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Squating makes more sense as a means of reducing the compression on vessels which would inevitably cause blood to back up rather than circulating. That said, in the squat position the muscles would be contracted to support the weight of the body and this could indeed cause the vessels to be compressed by the tensed muscles. So not sure now which would be the best method.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Maureen on 11/12/2009 17:56:49
Hi Alum,

Amazing difference in the before and after pictures! I'm sure you feel good because of the results so far and look forward to even better results down the road.

Maureen
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: alun006 on 13/12/2009 18:15:50
Thankyou Maureen

How are you doing ?

Yes, aswell as the vein improvement, i have also almost eradicated my knee pain issue that i have since i was 3 years old.
(I have been up to 6 weeks without a attack, and i used to have this 3 times a week.....) [:)]

That is great because the pain was horrible, when i had a attack. But the doctors could not explain this even though i had a tendent reduction when i was younger.

The only negative point, is a spider vein ankle flare on my left leg. This has not happened on the right as the pressure is not as near with the vv being higher up.

However this makes sense with the reduction on my calf vein.

But the positives outway the one negative i have experienced.

Thankyou Alun
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 20/12/2009 18:55:52
Hi Maureen

Thank's for your post regarding Alun's improvements in varicose veins. One would think that here among surgeons, scientists, doctors and nurses there would be great interest in these obvious developments. One begins to imagine that there may be considerable vested interests in trying to discredit this important discovery in circulation especially when reading the red text warning which I have only ever seen on my posts.

This is after all a science forum so one would expect that there are many out there repeating this simple experiment to try to disprove me. Yet there is not?

It is not science to say we "The Naked Scientists do not endorse any of Andrew K Fletcher's Physical, Biological or Medical assertions or opinions."

These are clearly not imagined improvements and Alun is a very genuine man with very genuine vascular problems and very genuine vascular improvements.

Now the dilema for anyone reading this thread is whether to trust hundreds of thousands of people working from literature that states you need expensive surgery or to trust a man who advises people to sleep on a tilted bed and watch their veins return to normal without the need for surgery or indeed a surgeon!

You could always wear support stockings and put your legs above the heart, rather impractical IMHO and unendorsable considering it has never reversed a varicose vein.

But to see what tilting a bed can do, you may want to read carefully through the posts from people with multiple sclerosis who have avoided sleeping on flat unscientific beds:

http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-8535.html

Unbiased Independent Research and proud to think outside the box!

Andrew K Fletcher


Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: beachbhoy on 20/01/2010 07:47:54
Hello all, I have recently started IBT (within the last few days). I have had varicose veins developing since my late teen years which run in my family and I just happen to have had the worst case. They were never noticable in feeling (although clearly visible) until Oct last year when I started to 'feel'them. Not painful but kind of wierd. I was in the UK at the time so it may have been down to cold weather which my body hadn't really experienced for a while.

Anyway after the unsual internet research and visit to the doctor it was a toss up between a visit to a vascular surgeon who would prescribe 'tights' and offer surgery or IBT and an increase in certain flavanoids in my diet or supplements. Obviously I chose the later. Btw thankyou Andrew for at least investigating some kind of alternative to having them 'stripped' which gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Having read numerous posts on a variety of websites i'm given great hope that my veins will become managable. At 30 years of age this is not something you expect to be worrying about!

So onto the initial report: After a few days with IBT (our bed is raised by just over 14cm at the head with two blocks in the middle of the bed for support) myself and partner have found the bed doesn't feel much different to normal. We have found it a little more difficult to get to sleep but we're having a heatwave in Australia at the moment which could also be contributing. Obviously I dont expect to see results until weeks after so i'll take pictures and report back. My partner has no health issues but was willing to try IBT just for the general health benefits. Her main concern was that the bed was stable for 'happy times'!

As a foot note I went to a local brick yard where they have a multitude of different sized bricks. The 5 blocks I am using cost around 15dollars. I have a bed which looks like this:
head                                                             feet
    ---------------------------------------------
    ]                                                           [
----                                                             -------
So I had to factor in the larger gap above and add 7cm for the middle blocks. I also used two old shoes to cushion the middle blocks and fill the slight gap. Hope people can understand that! I looked for instructions on what to do with a bed frame like mine but they all referred to ensemble type beds which dont have a gap in the middle like mine.

Thanks again Andrew ill take regular photos and hope for results!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 25/01/2010 17:49:41
Thanks

Having another person willing to take photographs in the interest of science and document the changes due to IBT is a bonus.

It's also great to know that the red text has not put you off trying it for yourself and like you say, certainly esier to test than surgery.

Google "andrew k fletcher" and ms to see where this therapy is heading.

Look forward to hearing from you again

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: OldDragon on 16/02/2010 19:59:49
Just a quick update here, as it's about 18 months now since I commenced IBT. I've had no further incidents of phlebitis since the one mentioned ages ago in this thread, and have not needed to request any steroid anti-inflammatory medication for the spinal flares either.

Last autumn/early winter, I was actually able to walk into a shoe shop and buy a pair of winter boots off the peg that fit both my feet and around my legs, so the oedema improvements have proven consistent and lasting. The swollen veins on the inside of my right knee where I was being troubled by regulart bouts of phlebitis are not visible anymore, either. Will manage to get some photos of those one of these days.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: MG on 17/02/2010 15:31:40
I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

Thanks
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 18/02/2010 19:13:22
I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

YES, sleeping flat is a poor cousin to sleeping inclined.

My niece went full term on an inclined bed, couldnt lay down flat due to discomfort and pain.

Andrew

Thanks
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Gragery40 on 24/02/2010 11:54:07
Really good and exotic informative post,but if a person becomes pro-active about their diet and health can easily return back to a normal lifestyle.Thanks for the recommendation.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: frankwest12345 on 06/03/2010 10:09:03
I tried IBT for six months with no results for varicose veins. It did help with a mildly bad back (no need to do my strecthing exercises) and after two weeks there was a discernible lessening of the vv's but then they came back. In fact, over the winter the veins got worse but this I put down to the very cold weather as they are now back where they started.

I have just increased the bed height to eight inches but this made it difficult to get to sleep but will persist.

I would like to see more experimentation. IBT combined with compression stockings for instance. Inclined bed but with the head at the lower end.

I am going to start taking Serrapeptase which is an enzyme that takes out debris from the blood (and has been used for cleaning out arteries) and has some anecdotal evidence of helping vv. I am hoping that improved blood pumping from IBT combined with this enzyme will do the deed.

I think that there is enough evidence that IBT helps some people with vv but I think it is worth extending the experiment by combining it with other things (if it does not work after a few months).
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 09/03/2010 09:32:09
Sitting posture is very important also. Sitting with knees higher than seat compromises the effects from IBT overnight.

Your comment about the observed lessening of VV proves the therapy works. You then mention the cold weather causes them to bulge out again.

Alun also raised this question and we nailed it down to high humidity in his case.

Could the winter have meant that you spent longer than normal sitting in a chair? And is this chair tilted back so the seat is lower than knees when sitting? Does this chair (could be a car seat) apply pressure to the backs of the thigh muscles above the knees?

Alun also used to wear compression stockings. He no longer needs them. But they could as you say be used to speed up the effects of IBT when worn at night. And I have recommended this for several people who had oedema and it worked well to the point that the oedema vanished completely and the stocking was not longer required.

Now that your veins have returned back to where they were before the winter, have you found you are not sitting as much?

Very interesting post

Thanks

Andrew

Edited to change calf muscle to thigh muscles. My error sorry :)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: frankwest12345 on 13/03/2010 20:20:27
Hi Andrew, thanks for the comments. My armchair does indeed seat me lower than my knees so I have added some cushions to it. I usually do an eight mile walk three or four times a week, the only time I missed that was when we had the snow - maybe a couple of weeks at most.

I have already adapted to the eight inch bed height - interestingly, I find myself less inclined to stay in bed once I wake up, and find myself getting up as soon as it is light.

I will start compression stockings whilst sleeping, see if that helps.

I am now on day two of Serrapetase (60,000iu three times a day before food) and will also be adding Cayenne (inc Hawthorn) pills as this is reputed to have a highly stimulating effect on circulation.

BTW my mother's side of the family suffers from vv, my uncle had huge ones in both his legs but actually lived to 98, so we are talking bad genes here so if I can get rid of them anyone can (I am 53 BTW)... see what happens next
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Unnaked Patient on 13/03/2010 21:58:57
Started IBT last September. At that time, I made reference to a nutritional publication, which unfortunately is no longer in print. No possible posting of links, obviously.
Since old habits are difficult to break, my IBT was rather sporadic initially. Even so, had some improvements to my vv's. Had a bad cold with a touch of bronchitis middle of February. Stopped me smoking cold, and that without any withdrawal symptoms at all. Perhaps IBT had something to do with it. If so, from a pack a day to zero - not bad at all.
Waiting for summer, as my vv's were worse then. A bit reluctant to post pictures, they really do lack appeal. Will see. BTW, whether my vv's will disappear this summer, next year, or gradually over a number of years, makes no difference to me. Just happy to know that regardless of age (67), I indeed can make them disappear by following IBT on a regular basis. Gives a totally different outlook on this situation.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 21/03/2010 09:16:39
Hi Andrew, thanks for the comments. My armchair does indeed seat me lower than my knees so I have added some cushions to it. I usually do an eight mile walk three or four times a week, the only time I missed that was when we had the snow - maybe a couple of weeks at most.

I have already adapted to the eight inch bed height - interestingly, I find myself less inclined to stay in bed once I wake up, and find myself getting up as soon as it is light.

I will start compression stockings whilst sleeping, see if that helps.

I am now on day two of Serrapetase (60,000iu three times a day before food) and will also be adding Cayenne (inc Hawthorn) pills as this is reputed to have a highly stimulating effect on circulation.

BTW my mother's side of the family suffers from vv, my uncle had huge ones in both his legs but actually lived to 98, so we are talking bad genes here so if I can get rid of them anyone can (I am 53 BTW)... see what happens next

Made an error in previous post abut calf muscles, should have said back of thigh muscles just above the knee http://www.rwc.uc.edu/ap/LL17.JPG Note in the image the locations of the vessels just above the knee.

Pressure in this area could well be responsible for the swelling of veins during the daytime.

I have a new forum now on http://www.inclinedbedtherapy.com that is being updated regularly. The forum has a section for varicose veins and oedema and could use some input.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 21/03/2010 09:20:00
Unnaked Patient

Thanks for joining the revolution against flat unscientific sleeping :)



Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: frankwest12345 on 23/03/2010 12:28:50
Well I have made a little progress after two weeks with IBT at eight inches, taking Serrapetase three times a day and lately added Cayenne twice a day. I have posted some details and photos on https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 26/03/2010 22:36:04
Well I have made a little progress after two weeks with IBT at eight inches, taking Serrapetase three times a day and lately added Cayenne twice a day. I have posted some details and photos on https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/ (https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/)



Frank, thanks for providing photographs. The results so far are pretty impressive IMHO.

Very useful having photographs of before and after.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 19/04/2010 17:28:10
https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/

Frank the latest photograph is showing considerable improvements over the previous two. Thanks for updating.

Just had a call from a lady who mentioned you had updated your progress.

Hope your not stuck in the volcanic dust cloud while on holiday :)

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: swimmer on 09/05/2010 10:03:25
INCLINED BED THERAPY for VARICOSE VEINS:

Andrew Fletcher,

I would like to join the I.B.T. documenting on varicose vein progress.
The doppler test was performd identifying reflux in both legs.
I have raised my bed 6" and have been taking photos (start date: 20MAY10)

Where do you start posting? (nakedscientist.com?  inclinedbedtherapy.com?.  andrewfletcher.com?)

Please advise on the most current website for posting. 

V/R
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Rolander on 13/07/2010 23:50:04
Hello. I am a 42 year old male with what I believe are VVs. I am very interested in this topic. I have had swelling on the insides of my ankles which resembles varicose veins following an acupuncture visit (though I can't be sure it was the acupuncture itself which caused it or what) for the last 10 years. The total area affected on each side is not much larger than 4 cm in length/diameter. In the last 4-5 years, the swelling and pain have gotten worse and have cost me lots of work. I can no longer sit at the office or carry on meetings normally. I can't deal with the explosive pressure when I hang my feet down for long. While extremely painful at times, they look like not much compared to some of the photos here. Lots of exercise SEEMS to improve it. Two weeks of rest just destroys me. It takes a ton of work to get my feet going again after that.

Other facts:
1) wearing tight socks which go above the ankles kills me. For a long time I could wear ONLY sandles (and loose ones). Now I wear socks which go just beneath the ankles, and this has allowed me to live a life in a winter climate again.
2) My nerve conduction velocities are all almost normal.
3) When tested in a sitting position at the doctor's office with special equipment, it seems clear that my feet are not returning blood as they are supposed to. They were clearly deficient, with my right leg being worse than my left leg.
4) Wearing the prescribed pressure stockings proved to be a disaster within 3-4 hours...I think they just cut off the circulation and I had pain for days.
5) I currently sleep flat and when working on my computer at home (which is about 8 hours a day), I usually have my feet elevated to the height of my buttocks -- but not higher. It is a hard, boring chair. How badly is circulation compromised just by sitting in a hard chair? I think quite a bit?
6) I exercise about a minimum of 90 minutes per day and a maximum of about 120 minutes per day. Gym/Running/Elliptical trainer.
7) I believe I have something which could be described as RSD, but feel that since MOST of the pain comes ONLY when hanging my feet down and swelling occurs--that the biggest problem are now the VVs. Without this pain with my feet in the dependent position, I could live a normal life I think.
8) Much of the character of the skin around my VVs and back sides of my ankles has changed. It is not "robust" -- but thinner and does not appear to have the same sheen as healthy, normal skin. However, the fatpads are growing back (I believe because of the massive rehab program I do, which gives my feet blood whether they want it or not!!!!).

I have a few questions after reading about IBT for the last three hours and watching the YouTube videos...

1) Does exercise help VVs or does it make them worse? I have started running 6-7 km every other day now. I feel better afterwards and am glad I am doing it.
2) I am considering some of the "non-stripping" methods of killing these VVs and then using IBT to help keep them away. However, after reading all of this, I may be willing to try this for a year first. However, now is a critical time in my love life and I would like to resolve this ASAP.
3) Isn't sitting supposed to be good for my VVs then? (as long as my feet are down???). And what about standing? I am confused. Is this obviously a matter of balancing competing effects for optimal results?
4) Getting blocks for my bed tomorrow. As I understand it, I need to be OVER five degrees!?!? So, if I estimate incorrectly and hit 10 degrees, it won't be a problem right? But will actually help? Why not sleep standing then? I am confused.
5) After reading some of your other websites and posts, I see that the evaporation and loss of water through respiration/perspiration is the continual driving force of the circulation? As a chemical engineer then, it seems it would make sense to sleep in a room with a fan which is forcing mass transfer from the surfaces as you would get a significantly higher rate of transfer.

Would love to share photos for advice, but it would be easier for me to email them to someone for posting perhaps.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: bam on 19/07/2010 05:27:50
hey andrew I wanted to post this on your new forum but I just got a message on it that it has been hacked.  I've been thinking about IBT and what is exactly conferring the benefits and it really does seem to stem from the fact that sleeping in an inclined bed stabilizes the spine so you can breathe better.  Conversely sleeping flat on a soft bed tends to misalign the spine and every time you breathe you incorporate the spine and particulary the lower spine as your body tries to compensate for not being able to get a full lung breath.  Also this is a good reason for constantly tossing and turning in bed, it is a poor effort to try to realign the spine properly which allows for full lung breathing to no avail. I would think that the ideal way to sleep would be flat on a hard surface for maximum breathing lung capacity but of course at first our joints would have to adjust for a while to what would feel like discomfort from weakened shoulder and hip joints.  I don't have any study on floor sleeping but if you are undergoing a full study then I would hope you will include sleeping on the floor as another control.  A drawback to the inclined bed that I haven't heard brought up that I hope you can address is the increased wear on the bed springs from not laying evenly.  Are you accounting for this ?  I can see how regularly flipping the bed would save the coils but is it possible that once the bed springs have adjusted to the new pressure from the body in incline that the IBT won't be conferring its benefits at least fully ?  Which brings me back to sleeping flat on the floor is the discomfort that is experienced at first the price you pay for the long term benefits which the inclined bed tries to offer ?
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Karen W. on 02/10/2010 08:03:07
Andrew I wanted to let you know and pass this on for all of us who had become friends with Al...My sincere sympathies go out to Al and her family and friends....
____________________________________________________

trpdpetcraftproject
 to me
   
show details 11:48 AM (12 hours ago)
   
Dear TRPD Member

It is with great sadness that we have to inform you that Al, or Old Dragon as most of us affectionately knew her has passed away suddenly.

I know Al will be greatly missed by all who knew her and all the rescues she worked so tirelessly on behalf of.

Several threads have been started in tribute to Al, please come and join us in remembering this remarkable lady

Http://petcraftproject.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=resqgen&action=display&thread=19444&page=1

Viv and all at TRPD
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: salta on 05/12/2010 10:22:35
Hi, new to this forum. About 22 weeks into 3rd pregnancy I developed several quite bad leg varicose veins as well as a mass of spider veins. Some areas on the backs of my legs look like they have been hit with a cricket bat! I am very sad about it as my legs look very changed. Anyway, despite the constant 31 c and high humidity we live in, I am now having to wear graduated compression stockings every minute of the day as legs are very uncomfortable these days. I am now 25 weeks pregnant.

Anyway never having had this problem before I have searched the internet for any clues as to what might help. IBT does seem very interesting.

I have started sleeping with the bed raised about 4 inches at the top 2 weeks ago and then a week ago we raised it again to 7 inches. So its been two weeks now....not really noticed much difference except for the decrease in the need to pee during the night and husband's snoring has improved. I am drinking more water on purpose and using air con at night to assist the evaporation. I would post photos of my legs but I'm currently too upset by them, and the thought they may remain like this, to do this. When/if I see a good improvement I'll post the photos to give hope to others - especially as this thread doesn't seem to have covered much on vvs in pregnancy, yet it is very common and really uncomfortable. I also hope this is a safe thing to do in pregnancy!??

I am a bit concerned that not many people visit this thread anymore. I hope the improvements seen by Alun etc. have lasted and that new people might post their successes or failures to help give a clearer picture of what's realistic. Thanks
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: SteveFish on 05/12/2010 18:39:26
Salta:

Bed raised at the top? I hope this means feet above head.

Steve
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 15/02/2011 09:40:00
Salta:

Bed raised at the top? I hope this means feet above head.

Steve

IBT is the opposite and involves raising the bed at the head end. The photographs from Alun and others are genuine and show that tilting the bed so that is provides a head up platform rather than the head down Trendlenburg method produces positive results for people with varicose veins.

Spider or thread veins are different to the swollen twisted varicose veins we have shown improvements with.

For more information about this free therapy visit, http://inclinedbedtherapy.com or google inclined bed therapy.

We need a controlled study to test IBT against sleeping flat and I am sick and tired of approaching the medical profession to get this simple task done.

The heart rate decreases by 10 12 beats per minute. Respiration rate decreases by 4-5 breaths per minute when IBT is practised. Yet circulation improves along with metabolism and extremities become warmer quicker. (No more cold feet and hands in bed)

How does the literature account for these changes?

One PHD student conducting a study on IBT will open up one huge can of worms for our understanding of physiology.

So why has it taken nearly 20 years to have mainstream medicine investigate something so simple?

Andrew K Fletcher 
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: sky on 27/06/2011 10:29:43
Andrew,how come this topic in this forum and your website's forum become inactive in 2011? I want to know the latest research progress of it for treating varicose vein.

I am new to IBT. I have varicose vein, and often feel the pain because of it even it's not very serious. my doctor told me the valves of vein not function as good as it should, and advise me the put my feet higher than the heart when sleeping.

last night I start to try IBT with 4 inch, but feeling some pain while sleeping and I could see the vein became more obvious  (more blue) than sleeping on flat bed. I could not sleep at all, then I went back to flat bed after 4 hours try. the pain went away on flat bed. I want to know if this is normal. when doing IBT, I don't know if vein valves are opened allowing blood to flow back to heart when doing IBT.

Hope to hear from you
sky   
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/08/2011 20:04:57
Sky

My main project Operation OASIS has taken president over my other work for now so please accept my apologise for neglecting this important thread.

We are still waiting for the medical profession to investigate these claims and yet nothing has emerged, though this was anticipated given the lack of interest from all concerned in the medical profession.

The first 2 weeks of IBT can be a little weird for some and certainly some discomfort is to be expected while you adjust to the new sleeping posture.

People have reported a pulling sensation in the legs during IBT and given that pressures inside the veins are altered it is not inconceivable that some pain and aches will emerge as a result of this.

We have had a great response from surgeons and consultants working in the new field of Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency or CCSVI which has been linked to multiple sclerosis by Dr Franz Shelling and Dr Paolo Zamboni, a 4 page article about IBT appeared in New Pathways Magazine which included testimonies from people with ms who have experienced significant improvements using this simple method. More information can be found on thisisms forum under the CCSVI section.

All of this research has been self funded and the therapy remains and always will remain free for anyone to test it.

Sincerely yours

Andrew K Fletcher   
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 27/12/2011 13:32:16
 Instructional video showing how to convert a wooden framed bed for Inclined Bed Therapy for around £11.00

Easier than you might think.

Hope you enjoy the video

Happy Holidays

Andrew
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/03/2013 16:17:43
It's been a while since Inclined Bed Therapy was introduced to this forum and thought it is a good time to ask for progress updates from those of us using IBT.

A new page on Facebook has stimulated some very interesting results and I hear from new people testing IBT almost every day with the same predictable positive results.

For those of you who have not yet heard about what IBT is and has already achieved for people with multiple sclerosis.

Inclined Bed Therapy has been shown to improve health and wellbeing of the many who have tried.
It's simple! raise the head of your bed by 6 inches and sleep on it!

Inclined bed therapy is where one's bed is raised 6 to 8 inches at the head by using bricks, wedges, or blocks to raise it (even books). This can have a positive effect on your health and help with many disorders including:- Spinal cord injury, Multiple Sclerosis, back pain, Circulatory problems, acid reflux or GERD, sinus and respiratory disorders, sleep apnea, low metabolism, edema in the legs, and many others.

Its free to try for everyone. Feel free to tell your friends and families. Inclined Bed Therapy has brought a new lease of life to thousands and it can help you!

Inclined Bed Therapy should only be used as part of a healthy lifestyle. A healthy lifestyle includes following a healthy diet, maintaining a healthy weight, and being physically active.

You can find us on http://facebook.com/inclinedbedtherapy where you can share experiences, ask questions and learn more about how this simple non-invasive FREE therapy can help you and your family.

Andrew K Fletcher (Originator of IBT)
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Kitri on 03/04/2013 23:01:30
I wish I would have known about your blog before now.  I was using IBT for at least three years until I recently moved to a new home.  Since then I have been sleeping on a flat bed and propping myself up when I want to lie on my back.  In 1995 I had my gall bladder removed, and since then I have had GERD.  About three years ago I put the head of my bed on the 6" riser cubes and began this experiment.  The gerd symptoms did improve substantially in the first several months.  Unfortunately my lower back hurt very often as a result.  My husband tried to sleep this way, which may have helped his snoring, but the back pain and sliding down he experienced made him stop.

I wish I would have known your research on the subject of varicose veins being helped by this therapy.  I have some veins which some vascular surgeons disagree about - I guess they can be called mild varicose veins.  These developed because of standing for long periods, and were aggravated by sitting for long car trips.  The conventional wisdom is to prop the legs up whenever possible.  While I don't believe the IBT caused them to hurt more, when they were hurting at their worst the discomfort would keep me awake at night.  Logic made it seem that having my feet and legs pointing down while in bed wouldn't help.  So I began propping them up while sleeping in the inclined bed position.  I know that you've said that this is counterproductive, but propping them up while sleeping seemed to relieve them, (whether that was an accurate assumption I don't know now.)

The inclined position helped with the acid reflux problem greatly.  However I had perpetual tightness in my lower back that my chiropractor attributed to sleeping on an incline.  I already have uneven muscles from sleeping on my left side most of the time and never on my right.  This and the discomfort in my calves prompted me to not prop the bed up after I moved.  Since moving I've been sleeping on a horizontal bed again, propping my upper torso up when I want to lie on my back.  The veins aren't bothering me currently, however now I believe that this is causing trigger point inflammation in my buttocks, which is causing other problems.  I am desperate to solve this dilemma and after finding this site I am considering IBT again.

I also have kidney stones, and I am wondering if you have any data regarding the effects of IBT on these?  The increased density of urine concerns me, because I already tend to not drink enough.  I believe I read a few key words here about kidney stones, but I could not find the original post.  I would greatly appreciate any information you have about this and any ideas about lower back pain.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 11/04/2014 17:31:51
Dear Friends,

I just created the petition "Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) Trials In Hospitals" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too. The petition is asking for trials to be conducted to evaluate Inclined Bed Therapy.

This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it, the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the petition here:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/inclined-bed-therapy-ibt-for-our-hospitals

Thank you!

Andrew

P.S. Can you also take a moment to share the petition with others? It's really easy – all you need to do is forward this email or share this link on Facebook or Twitter:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/inclined-bed-therapy-ibt-for-our-hospitals
Short link to petition: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/p/inclinedbedtherapy
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: webandnet on 02/06/2014 04:18:00
Just found this forum.   Will read through the entire thread eventually, but wanted to add.

I've slept on inclined bed for over 14 years, during which time, had a minimal bed head height of 8 inches, and now at 18 inches.  Recently learned I have varicose veins and chronic venal insufficiency.   Upon learning, I raised the leg portion of my mattress, thereby forming a bed head height of 18 inches, dipping at the pelvis and then a raised leg height up to my chest height.   Very similar in shape to those adjustable head and leg height beds.  Here's what happened overnight.

1. My feet became far less sensitive to cold and were far more comfortable in hot shoes.
2. Some muscle knots in my legs reduced by 80%.
3. Tension in my pelvis reduced by 60%

I've interpreted the above as my circulation improved--blood was able to return from my tall body extremities much easier during rest period of sleeping.

I don't know why original poster's veins actually improved, but I would guess that most people are more likely to worsen leg problems by an inclined bed.

Additionally, these type of issues I believe are better estimated by guessing the state of nature.   In such, most humans have likely evolved sleeping on mostly harder, flat surfaces .  As such, people slept moreso on their backside.   This optimal sleep position developed through  hundreds of thousands of years of evolution will better forecast whether inclined-bed sleep therapy study will work.   After all, even a six month study will not reveal the issues that will later occur in sixteen years.

If anyone knows very long term effect of inclined bed sleeping or even inclined bed with raised legs sleeping, I would love to learn!

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: vishnu10003 on 11/07/2014 16:35:34
Hello Everyone, am new here.

I have had a vericocele (vericosed testicular vein) now for about 12 years. It can cause many problems so I of course I am quite anxious to somehow heal it without going for surgery.

My question: Does one need to do inclined bed therapy permanently once success is achieved? More specifically, can a faulty valve actually heal itself if given the proper conditions?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/08/2014 08:23:23
http://youtu.be/x68PLE8MXJE (http://youtu.be/x68PLE8MXJE)  Video of radio interview with Patrick Timpone on One Radio Network. It's an hour long so save the link for when you have time to listen. 

The interview covers how Andrew made this remarkable discovery in circulation by revisiting how trees circulate sap. Moving on to how this same density driven circulation applies to the body. He then talks about how he applied this to how we sleep and sit, because posture had become far more important than anyone could imagine.

The radio Host has asked his listeners to test IBT and to report back to the show when Andrew is re-invited back to learn what the listeners have discovered about raising the head of their bed 15cm higher than the foot end.

History of sleeping is also discussed where Andrew explains about Ancient Egyptian beds being inclined and how people became afraid to sleep flat in the Tudor period during the sweating sickness.

It is well worth a listen.

Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 13/08/2014 08:25:04
 A doctor who heard the radio interview has experimented with IBT and gone public with his observations on One Radio Network. This is another first and will help us enormously to reach out to others.
-Dr. Massey shares his experience using inclined bed therapy
-Reversing varicose veins and raising blood oxygen levels with inclined bed therapy.
http://oneradionetwork.com/health/dr-richard-massey-fear-inside-job-dr-massey-answers-health-questions-july-31-2014/
His comments on IBT begin at 45:00 in to 54:35 on the audio file http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/challenges/07.31.14_massey_richard_one.mp3
Title: Re: Could Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) replace surgery for varicose veins and oedema?
Post by: Andrew K Fletcher on 08/11/2014 18:03:02

http://youtu.be/86ysFt9DCQQ (http://youtu.be/86ysFt9DCQQ)
 Published on 25 Oct 2014

The Science of Sleep Radio Interviewing Andrew Fletcher by Charles De Carle http://peoplesinternetradio.com/ (http://peoplesinternetradio.com/)
GRAVITY Heals Sleeping Flat makes us sick according to Andrew K Fletcher, who has spent 20 years researching the History of sleep to find answers to why we sleep on flat beds today.
His exciting sleep posture discovery has helped countless people to regain their health against impossible odds simply by raising the head end of their bed by around 6 inches or 15cm, causing the entire bed to slope down from head to toe at an angle of approximately 5 degrees to the horizontal.