21

New Theories / Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 28/05/2011 22:31:05 »

But my semen still definitely flows through my Urethra when I'm doing that as evidenced by the pre-fluid.    

This is not quite right.  I think we should distinguish between three different potential allergens: 1) sperm, 2) ejaculate-semen, 3) pre-ejaculate fluid.

So, when you masturbate, while stopping before ejaculation, pre-ejaculate (3) flows through your urethra, but semen (2) does not flow through your urethra.

We know that some people develop a POIS episode just from 3, without the occurrence of 1 or 2.  And, for instance, in Demo's case, he still has POIS symptoms after getting rid of 1, while 2 and 3 remain for him.  

Thus, even if we also want to think about 'regeneration' theories, we should still be sure to take into account and distinguish the various elements that can potentially be contributing to an auto-immune reaction.

22

New Theories / Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 24/05/2011 02:59:57 »

Animus, that was a really excellent segment!  I thought you really presented yourself well, and gave a really clear description of POIS.  And, even though your surgical solution was somewhat unusual, you gave a pretty typical account of POIS, and I think any POIS sufferer would be able to relate to it.

I had one question, though: in the episode, it seemed to indicate that your surgery had completely cured you of POIS.  But, I thought you've said that while it did help with some symptoms, some other symptoms still remain.  Did TLC just present it as a 'full cure' for the sake of a better TV ending?

23

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 01/05/2011 13:05:54 »

http://myhealth.hollandhospital.org/HealthTopics/allergies/dec07acMain.htm

Dr. Ronald Simon, an allergist at Scripps Clinic in San Diego , told HealthDay that he and his colleagues have treated patients with a mixture of contraceptive gel and an anti-allergy medication, cromolyn.

Thanks Horizon, I'll be contacting Dr. Ronald. 

It mentions the potential for a prostatic protein (part of the semen one would imagine) being a guilty culprit as well as sperm.

Hmmm, it the 'guilty culprits' are said to include fluids beyond sperm itself, this could potentially account for why some men suffer POIS simply from arousal and pre-ejaculate fluid without ejaculation.

24

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 30/04/2011 00:01:18 »

He wasn't keen at all.  He said anyone can be hypersensative to their own semen/sperm as it's a foreign substance with 23 chromosomes and that's why it's produced and stored in a blood barrier (testies) away from the body.

The one-day desensitization is the goal for all of us.

Fascinating news!

The implication is that POIS may still be a reaction to semen/sperm that has broken the blood barrier, but that the skinprick is not at all relevant in the diagnosis? And that's why the potential for desensitization still exists?

No, I'm just not sure if I'm following the implications.

He says he doesn't agree that the skinprick test has any value, for the reasons he mentions, but he agrees that there can be a semen allergy once the blood barrier is broken, and therefore desensitization is possible.

Just trying to clarify that.

My sense of it (based on Limejuice's reporting from Dr. Bernstein) is:

Sperm can cause an allergic reaction in people in general.  So the skinprick test with sperm wouldn't indicate anything one way or another about POIS.  Both POIS and non-POIS people would be likely to react.

However, if there is a 'gap' or some other problem internally, and the sperm reaches the bloodstream, then this could *also* cause an allergic reaction.  So, in this case, it could be possible to treat it with desensitization.

His bottom line seems to be: the allergen hypothesis may not be useful for testing for POIS, but it may still be useful for treating POIS.

25

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 28/04/2011 23:12:47 »

Amazing to learn that sperm has nothing to do with my POIS! edit - maybe I should have added 'today' ?

For now, just for now, can we leave out the past and take it up again in another installment?

I'd like to see if we differ about right here and now.

...THE PAST CANNOT BE DISCOUNTED...

emphasis mine - demo

Just to add in my understanding of the Demo/Dave Debate (D/D D):

Here is the data we have:

Demo prior to T treatment: POIS 100%, sperm count unknown.

Demo after T treatment: POIS reduced to 20%, sperm count zero.

So, there are two possible explanations:

1) Demo had a higher sperm count prior to T treatment, and it was reduced to zero be the T treatment.
   1a) This could indicate that sperm accounted for 80% of Demo's POIS, and with the elimination of sperm, only 20% of POIS remains, caused by another factor.
   1b) Or, it is possible that even if the T reduced the sperm count to zero, Demo's pre-T POIS was not related to sperm at all, and that the reduction of POIS was due to something other than elimination of sperm.

2) Demo already had a zero sperm count prior to the T treatment.  In this case, pre-T, he had zero sperm and 100% POIS.  So his POIS both pre-T and post-T would not be linked to sperm at all.


What we know now is that Demo's current remaining 20% of POIS is not linked to sperm.  However, the earlier 80% of POIS that has been eliminated could very well have been linked to the possible reduction of sperm count to zero (hypothesis 1a).

However, since don't know Demo's pre-T sperm count, we can't say for sure.  But we should certainly retain the strong possibility that sperm can be linked to POIS--even in Demo's case!

26

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 28/04/2011 23:11:35 »

He wasn't keen at all.  He said anyone can be hypersensative to their own semen/sperm as it's a foreign substance with 23 chromosomes and that's why it's produced and stored in a blood barrier (testies) away from the body.

The one-day desensitization is the goal for all of us.

Limejuice, if I understand you correctly, Dr. Bernstein thought there was not a point in doing the skinprick test, because all men could easily be hypersensitive to an injection of their own sperm, and so it wouldn't have any particular correlation to POIS.  Is that correct?

If so, our recent pursuit of skinprick results may not have any significance.  (And it may also undermine Dr. Waldinger's use of skinprick tests as an indicator of POIS.)

Did Dr. Bernstein know of any specific scientific studies that indicate that men in general are likely to be hypersensitive to their own semen/sperm?  Or was it more of a general inference on his part from other knowledge of the blood barrier structure?

But, yes, I think that isolating the various seminal plasma proteins is a great step forward!

27

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 25/04/2011 02:04:25 »

Has anyone here tried consuming sweet potatoes to counteract POIS? This is one food that I had previously found a correlated with fewer symptoms. Sweet potatos are well known for their anti-inflammatory properties. This week I had an NE with resulting minor POIS symptoms. A few days into it I remembered this food and ate a bunch (the orange type) and the next day symptoms were gone. There are other possible reasons: I started taking some herbal prostate pills, and I also did some icing with a cold pack on the front pelvic area. I'm thinking that something in this mix helped me. Sweet potatoes would be an easy thing for others to try against inflammation if that is in fact our enemy.

I thought we had discussed sweet potatoes in the past but my search for the posts came up rather dry.

Yesterday, I had an O around 3 pm.  Later in the evening, I decided to try John21's idea: I ate two whole (microwaved) sweet potatoes, including the skins. 

When I woke up the next morning, I was mostly symptom-free, and this lasted throughout the day.  I'd estimate that it was about an 80% reduction of the symptoms--definitely very significant!

So, I'll try it again next time I O, and we'll see if this is repeatable for me.  But it may be something that others want to try as well.

28

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 01/04/2011 11:03:17 »

My two cents:

I think the new forum looks pretty good!  I agree that we might need to experiment a little to figure out what is the best structure, given the level of posting.  (Too few categories vs. too many.)

In terms of trying to stay at Naked Scientists, but with an expanded structure: while it might be a bit more familiar in the short run, it seems like if we're making this significant structural change, it makes sense to also change to our own site.  I've also felt a bit embarrassed when talking to doctors and others in terms of having to tell them the 'Naked' part of the Naked Scientists name--especially with our sexually-related condition, it calls up unhelpful connotations.  So even if Naked Scientists let us expand, we'd still be stuck with the 'Naked'!

29

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 19/03/2011 11:22:15 »

Planned action :
- I intend to do a pin-pr1ck and skin-contact test on myself with my own seminal fluid.

Cornelius, as previous posts have mentioned, doing an allergy self-test on your own can be very dangerous, and can lead to anaphylaxis.  Since your doctors seem to be supportive, why not have them do it instead?

30

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 16/03/2011 21:15:27 »

Dear all,

It seems I cannot get Silodosin in the UK.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Physicians are willing to prescribe it to me, it just seems that it is unavailable here. 

From a google search, it looks like it is marketed in the UK under the names 'Urorec' and 'Silodyx'.  Did your physicians say why it was unavailable?

31

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 07/03/2011 00:19:38 »

Sounds like reasonable possiblility.

All I can say about the exposure during sperm regeneration is that, the doctor who did my revesal warned me that sperm in the epididimus would be attacked by antibodies once the reversal was done. His preocupation was for the potential lack of resulting fertility.

Apparantly it isn't attacked in the "sperm sacs" (don't remember the proper term right now.

But anyways, your alternative should definitly be investigated as well. It has better potential I think to fit a all encompassing theory. Just one doubt? There probably wouldn't be any of those hormones in the semen that produces a reaction in the skinprick.

Daveman, that is interesting about the sperm being attacked in the epididymis rather than in the 'sperm sacs.'  At the very least, it's good to keep in mind that there there are various places where the 'problem' could be occurring.

And, you are right that the 'other' hormones probably wouldn't be present in a skin-prck test with semen.  But, the overall effect could still result from chain-reaction set off by the semen, which then brings in other hormonal components.  So it could potentially be somewhat complex.

And, I'm not fully convinced that the skin-prck test with semen is necessarily that indicative--since we don't know yet whether non-POIS people might also have a reaction to a skin-prck with their own semen as well!  So, not to dismiss it, but there is a still a major methodological step that needs to be tested for.

32

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 06/03/2011 22:14:04 »

I only assume that during the regeneration process, in some (maybe all?) the sperm is exposed. (Don't know why). Once the regeneration is terminated, it seems that the sperm is in a place, isolated from the cell mediated attack.

Hmmm, I still don't see why new sperm would be 'exposed' during the regeneration process, and only 'protected' once the process  finishes.

However, there could be other factors through which one could draw a connection to sperm regeneration--for instance, after an ejaculation, the body might produce certain "MAKE MORE SPERM" hormones.  And, the auto-immune response might not be in reaction to the new sperm (or even to the old sperm), but to those hormones.  And, once the new sperm have been formed, those hormones might turn off, and POIS would stop.  So, if there is faster regeneration, the hormones will get turned off sooner, and so POIS would be shorter.

In other words, we know that POIS occurs when semen/sperm is ejaculated.  But, the reaction might not be only to the semen/sperm itself, but also to other substances that are produced or turned on at the same time as ejaculation occurs. 

That is to say, we might want to focus not only or not primarily on the semen/sperm as a substance, but on the ejaculation and movement of semen/sperm as a process/event, which could involve many other chemical substances in addition to the sperm/semen.

33

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 06/03/2011 21:31:19 »

   Very interesting!  So, even if silodosin was not fully a 'magic bullet' for you, it does seem to demonstrate that it is not orgasm, but fluid release, that causes POIS. 

Aside from the silodosin, it opens for tests on all of the male contraceptive methods. There are those who's side effects are practicaly nulo. And each one has a slight shade of difference which would help to isolate sperm from semen etc.  I hope Dr. Waldinger runs with this. He at least doen't have to worry about us complaining of "encroachment". We WANT success! He's in a better condition to test whatever he likes. For us, it's difficult to find doctors willing to write the perscriptions and do the tests.  

 

Daveman, very good point!  We've now apparently separated orgasm from sperm/semen, and now the next step is to separate semen from sperm.  And, in that regard, it seems like a contraceptive that prevents spermatogenesis (like, for instance, the testosterone/progesterone combo) could do the trick, and could allow us to test the effects of ejaculation with spermless semen.    So, it might be that the culprit is not sperm, but the other components of semen -- or vice-versa! 

34

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 06/03/2011 20:53:48 »

If we loose our sperm (finding the recipient, or a helping hand so to speak), we naturally want to replenish it. But, we also begin POIS (because of this allergy we have). In POIS the whole auto-immune system is on alert. We see this, as whatever sensitivity we migh have flares up more easily. So we are highly sensitive to the new production phase of POIS. And this accentuates the Type IV reaction. With Type IV we are now into a cell mediated process that works more universally.

If the recuperation process is fast, we nip the Type IV process in the bud. This process eliminates the original offenders rapidly. And we move to the begining of the cycle where we want to find that "recipient" again. Oh my, those are beautiful eyes you have...!

Daveman, can you explain more about why you think that a faster recuperation process is linked to nipping the type IV process in the bud?   By 'recuperation', do you mean the production of new sperm?  How would this stop a type IV reaction that has already been started?

35

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 06/03/2011 20:46:24 »

Hurray,

Thanks for the update!  You described 5 different O's, with varying amounts of semen/pre-ejaculate in each one.  But, you only told us about "no POIS" for the first O.  Could you describe whether you had POIS symptoms following the other O's?

Hi Guthrie,

The Os involving no semen/pre-ejaculate were genuine none-POIS orgasms. The ones involving pre-ejaculate gave me the usual mild POIS symptoms that I would get from arousal but not ejaculation. The ones involving a small amount of semen gave me POIS symptoms that seemed lighter than normal.

My main problem when establishing exactly how much POIS each one gave me were the side-effects from the Silodosin (making me feel sleepy in a non-POIS manner), plus the fact that I continued to consume fairly large quantities of fenugreek during my tests, and my other main precaution (a large meal after an O).

Many issues related to "real life" meant that I could not risk allowing myself to feel as bad as possible by not taking my usual precautions. In an ideal world, I would have given myself a few weeks in isolation to do this, but my job makes such draconian measures impossible.

My main disappointment with the experiments was that the non-POIS Os left me feeling fine in the short-term, but within 12-24 hours I would still be feeling intense sexual urges. Going 2-3 weeks without full ejaculation isn't easy  [] I had hoped that the Os with dry ejaculation would "reboot" my sexual urges, but it didn't work like this for me, sadly.

Everybody on the forum has different symptoms and experiences, so Silodosin may be the answer to the prayers of some people. I can see it being particularly helpful for those who abstain entirely from ejaculation and wish to avoid NEs - Silodosin might well do a good job for these people.

And yes, usually 5 orgasms would completely floor me for several days, with or without fenugreek, so it has certainly proved itself as an interesting option. Just be wary of any side-effects, and consult with your physician before taking any further steps.

Very interesting!  So, even if silodosin was not fully a 'magic bullet' for you, it does seem to demonstrate that it is not orgasm, but fluid release, that causes POIS.

Since you've said:
Orgasm + no pre-ejaculate + no semen = zero symptoms.
And, orgasm + pre-ejaculate + no semen = only the symptoms that you'd have with pre-ejaculate leakage without orgasm.
That is to say, in both of these cases, the orgasm itself causes zero additional symptoms.

Thus, it really does seem like "movement of semen" is the main culprit.  And, for those of us who do not react to pre-ejaculate leakage, a 'dry' silodosin orgasm would mean: no symptoms!

So, even if silodosin is not the ultimate solution in terms of treatment of POIS, it seems like it has been very fruitful in contributing to our understanding of POIS.  Who would have thought that it would be possible to so easily test the effects of orgasm as distinguished from ejaculation? 

It also seems that this could provide a structure for a very easy research study for Dr. Waldinger or another researcher: he could simply have his 45 Dutch patients (or other POIS sufferers) take silodosin for three days, have a semen-less orgasm, and then report the effects.  (Or technically, for a double-blind survey, half the patients could be given silodosin, and half could be given a sugar pill.)  And, voila, another article can be published!

And, beyond just POIS, this could also contribute interesting findings to our understanding of the physiology of male sexuality on a broader level.

36

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 06/03/2011 12:12:43 »

OK, another update on the Silodosin.

I started a few days ago with a 12mg "one-off" dose, waited a few hours, had an O with no fluid leakage and no POIS. Had gf assisted O that night, pre-ejaculate leakage but no semen resulted.

Took the standard 8mg dose the following day, another O, no fluid leakage.

Took another 8mg dose the following day. By now I was feeling very "highly strung", sexually tense, I don't know the correct term. I could feel that my body (and brain) REALLY wanted to get rid of some semen. Sure enough, my next O resulted in a small amount of semen leakage. Another unplanned gf O later that night resulted in pre-ejaculate but not semen.

My experience of Silodosin so far is that if your mind/body is desperate to ejaculate, Silodosin won't do enough to stop it, although it will greatly decrease the volume of semen ejaculated. Keep in mind that I have not properly ejaculated now for a 3-4 weeks, which is probably an all-time record for me.

Every time I have had an O when I have felt reasonably relaxed, it's worked perfectly. It's only the occasions when I felt tense that Silodosin didn't do its job.

Hurray,

Thanks for the update!  You described 5 different O's, with varying amounts of semen/pre-ejaculate in each one.  But, you only told us about "no POIS" for the first O.  Could you describe whether you had POIS symptoms following the other O's?

37

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 02/03/2011 09:43:01 »

I also have a few fillings, but, like hurray, with no mercury involved.

38

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 01/03/2011 01:25:36 »

we'll at least have learned that POIS is caused specifically by ejaculation, and not by orgasm per se!

It's already been confirmed by Waldinger that POIS is caused by ejaculation- at least that seems to be the hypothesis he's going on.
The benefit of this could be a much faster remedy for those who suffer with POIS instead of waiting years for the desensitization treatment. Perhaps the both could be done in tandem.

Yes, Dr. Waldinger's hypothesis is that it POIS is caused by ejaculation.  However, as far as I know, he hasn't worked on separating orgasm from ejaculation.  If, through silodosin, we can link POIS specifically to ejaculation, and not orgasm, it can lend further weight to his hypothesis.

Also, it would be another nail in the coffin of the 'pyscho-sexual' accusation, since this could show that one can engage in a full act of sexual release, including orgasm, yet with no POIS--but when you add in the semen, that's when the POIS kicks in!

39

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 28/02/2011 21:39:14 »

If it turns out that I'm just swapping one problem for another, I may have to ultimately abandon Silodosin, but I will keep trying for now. Time will tell.

Yeah, I think you should stay with it. You might be onto something major with this. don't give up. I mean, there are lots of people who would trade some drowsiness for their full POIS symptoms. And the drowsiness could be temporary.

Yes, I agree--it could prove an important result.  That is, if silodosin can prevent POIS by preventing ejaculation, then even if you decide that the side effects are too burdensome, we'll at least have learned that POIS is caused specifically by ejaculation, and not by orgasm per se!

40

New Theories / Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

« on: 28/02/2011 21:35:05 »

Over 1,000,000 views!!!!