# Naked Science Forum

## Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: FMcGaffer on 22/04/2013 18:26:52

Title: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: FMcGaffer on 22/04/2013 18:26:52
Are there any mathematics that address the effect neighboring universes may have on our universe...for instance dark matter or energy, could they be the effect of other universes gravitational forces into our universe?
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 23/04/2013 00:12:18
That's a pretty neat idea. In string theory gravity is about the only thing that can cross a event horizon from the inside, and so it is from all other physics I've seen too.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Pmb on 23/04/2013 02:39:30
Are there any mathematics that address the effect neighboring universes may have on our universe...for instance dark matter or energy, could they be the effect of other universes gravitational forces into our universe?
No.

Consider the two dimensional analogy of our universe. Suppose ours and the other  uiniverse were both closed meaning that they had a finite amount of space to them and the geometry analogous to a sphere. See the figure at the bottom of the following page
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/religion/the_word_god.htm

The two spheres cannot be thought of as being close to or far from each other. They merely exist. If one expand then it can't "bump" into the other one. All that happens in each universe occurs on the surface of the sphere, ours on ours and theirs on theirs. So nothing in our universe can interact with anything in the other universe unless a tunnel is created connecting them. When that happens they are no longer two universes but the same universe with a more complicated geometry.

Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 23/04/2013 20:18:48
That depend on how you define it I think. If you want it to be closed from all observers then you would be right. If you assume that what we see is something described from constants we should be able to define, then that won't state what this universe 'is', more than it are restricted inside those parameters, from where we are and in what we measure.

And 'gravity' as Branes in string theory, I think is one of those things able to cross universes, if I remember right? Defining it as a particle universe won't solve it either, as I think. There is always one more thing waiting for us  :) and the puzzle is not laid yet.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: FMcGaffer on 26/04/2013 03:56:52
Thank you I believe your comment is more relevant. It seems the other gentleman's analysis is limiting. I would love to know if any mathematicians have run the numbers on this question. As I would like to see if the forces of gravity could be a contributing factor in our rapid expansion etc.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Bill S on 26/04/2013 13:05:36
[quote = Pmb] Can it be said that the scientist from our universe is the god (lower case is used to respect the God of my religion) of the child universe he created? [/quote]

Surely not, as he/she did not create the false vacuum, but simply caused the universe to develop from pre-existing material.

BTW, does anyone in physics still accept David Deutsch's argument that the double slit experiment provides "proof" of the existence of  other universes, and their influence on ours?
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Bill S on 26/04/2013 13:06:49
[quote = Pmb] Can it be said that the scientist from our universe is the god (lower case is used to respect the God of my religion) of the child universe he created?

Surely not, as he/she did not create the false vacuum, but simply caused the universe to develop from pre-existing material.

BTW, does anyone in physics still accept David Deutsch's argument that the double slit experiment provides "proof" of the existence of  other universes, and their influence on ours?

[/quote]
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Bill S on 26/04/2013 13:10:19
What happened there? I must have created an extra post.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 26/04/2013 13:20:08
Got to admit that I found the old version, of this web site, to work better. There you could link directly to a post. Still have to find where I can do this in the new version. Also it is rater annoying to find that each time one correct some spelling, the time it takes for it will be set as rather longer than it was from the point of view of me correcting it in 'real time'. A proof of multi verses possibly? That last one also seem to have to do with the amount of words written. But never the less, I still like it, and you can 'take away' a double post by 'Remove' if you like.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: FMcGaffer on 26/04/2013 17:11:47
Leaving any form of god out of the answer, has anyone postulated gravitational influences of "universes" having effects on our universe? It's intriguing for me to consider Lagrange types of areas within our universe caused by competing universes gravitational pull and the rapid expansion being caused by other universes attracting our matter toward themselves.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 26/04/2013 17:26:47
You could probably make a pretty good SF on that assumption, the problem being that we leave what we measure for philosophy there. To me a lot of science have a direct connection to it, in philosophy driving ideas, that then hopefully becomes tested in some way. But I don't expect anyone to be able to answer that one.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: syhprum on 26/04/2013 21:59:08
I have read somewhere that asymmetries in the CMBR might be due to adjacent "universe's" but I am far from convinced.
I think our universe is surrounded by an impenetrable barrier much like a BH.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: dlorde on 27/04/2013 14:46:02
I have read somewhere that asymmetries in the CMBR might be due to adjacent "universe's" but I am far from convinced.
I think our universe is surrounded by an impenetrable barrier much like a BH.
I understand that the latest data from the Planck satellite suggests that those apparent asymmetries were artefacts of the low resolution of previous data.

I'm not sure how our universe can be surrounded by an impenetrable barrier - surely it has no 'outside' from which anything can attempt to penetrate. Unless, of course, you define 'universe' as some subset of a metaverse where the universe subsets are physically adjacent (e.g. saying that whatever is beyond the observable universe is another universe). But in that case, there's no reason to believe there's any barrier - why shouldn't the universe extend smoothly out beyond the observable?
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: syhprum on 27/04/2013 16:28:27
I seem to have expressed myself rather badly I was trying to say that you can never pass out of the universe because as you say there is no "outside" hence nothing outside can be influencing us, I can almost understand those that invoke the idea of a god as some of these ideas are difficult to comprehend.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: FMcGaffer on 02/05/2013 15:32:41
Not sure what the "SF" acronym means but, the multiverse model should be easy to extrapolate for theoretical physicist. Granted it is ethereal and as such unobservable today. History shows we thought ourselves to be the center of the universe (and now perhaps universes). Mathematics proved our position in the solar system and subsequently in the universe long before we could observe and verify with instruments. I am curious if anyone is pursuing this as I would love to read about the physics involved and how it would be computed.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Pmb on 02/05/2013 15:50:17
Quote from: FMcGaffer
History shows we thought ourselves to be the center of the universe (and now perhaps universes).
Actually that was only up to a couple hundred years ago. Now we operate according to the principle of mediocrity which basically states that we should not consider ourselves to be on a special planet circling round a special star that has a special place in a special galaxy.

Quote from: FMcGaffer
Mathematics proved our position in the solar system and subsequently in the universe long before we could observe and verify with instruments.
That is quite incorrect. Math can never prove such a thing. Math is merely a language which we use to describe the world around us, i.e. to describe nature. Where did you get the idea that proved our position in the solar system and subsequently in the universe? It's quite wrong.

Quote from: FMcGaffer
I am curious if anyone is pursuing this as I would love to read about the physics involved and how it would be computed.
If you're asking for a mathematical proof that we're not the center of the universe then you have the wrong idea. Math can't prove that. Observation and deduction is what proves that. Math only comes in when we want to precisely describe such things.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: dlorde on 02/05/2013 17:27:24
Not sure what the "SF" acronym means ...
'Science Fiction' ?
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Pmb on 02/05/2013 17:44:20
Quote from: FMcGaffer
It's intriguing for me to consider Lagrange types of areas ...
What do you mean by "Lagrange type areas"?  Are you using an anaology to Lagrange points?
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: FMcGaffer on 02/05/2013 17:44:45
Pmb
The first rebuttal you have misses my point...I was merely alluding to how we thought we were the center and special universe in the same way we thought we were the center and special world before Copernicus did the math and later Galileo did the observations. Although, I do appreciate you restating the obvious which no one was disputing.
The point I was trying to make which was lost on you is that mathematical modeling can expose possibilities and enlighten us things to be proven later with observation. Which is quite right.
And in reference to your third comment the question I pose is whether gravitational forces outside our observable universe may have an influence on our universe. I was not asking about us being the center of anything ever.
Finally to reiterate,  I am curious what the "SF" meant and if the accelerated expansion could be due to external forces like other "multiverses/universes" pulling at us. I was hoping mathematical modeling may help explain the phenomenon. We speak the same language and look how misinterpreted my question is to you...it's amazing anything gets done in this world. haha
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Pmb on 02/05/2013 17:53:48
Pmb
The first rebuttal you have misses my point...
Please clarify what you meant when you wrote effect neighboring universes may have on our universe....
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 02/05/2013 18:00:29
It's cool FM, what I mean is that there are some pretty knowledgeable guys writing what's called 'hard core' SF, even some physicists. And you could indeed make this into a hardcore SF, as you could use strings and branes for it, together with fermions bosons and 'anti particles'. A lot of it depending on what you yourself find plausible, or would like to see. It can be very hard to differ between science and what one would like, even for those knowledgeable. There are no set truths in science, the best we can do is to explore and set up good experiments. We've come to a point where our direct experiments only becomes a stepping stone for inferring, which actually means that we're trying to explore what we can't measure, except indirectly, then inferring and fishing out truths from it. It's a very difficult universe, but I believe we're all doing our best to define it.

The danger is one where one decide it only can have one explanation, namely mine :)
Or yours.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: dlorde on 04/05/2013 00:47:45
... the question I pose is whether gravitational forces outside our observable universe may have an influence on our universe.

Almost certainly the observable universe is smaller than the whole universe, so almost certainly gravitational forces sourced beyond the observable universe will affect the observable universe. This isn't to say this influence is from another universe, unless you define our universe to be the observable universe only.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Pmb on 04/05/2013 05:31:56
Quote from: Bill S
Surely not, as he/she did not create the false vacuum, but simply caused the universe to develop from pre-existing material.
In the first place this is not a good place to discuss religion. I only pointed to that page because it has a diagram that I wanted to use.

In the second place I strongly disagree with your argument. In my opinion that's analogous to saying that Leonardo Da Vinci never created a work of art because all he did was to arrange pigment on a canvas. For the same reason its also analogous to saying that no human being ever created anything. That's according to your use of the term "create." So it's concievable, in your opinion, that an intelligent designer could not have created this or any other universe if he used a false vacuum? Thus the god of Abrahamic religions, if he exists, may not be a god at all.

That which causes a universe to be created using existing material is one way to define an intelligent designer and one way to define the term "god." Did you notice the use of lower case "g"?

Did you actually read the entire paragraph that was contained it? Because following that question I explicitly stated the following
Quote
Can it be said that the scientist from our universe is the god (lower case is used to respect the God of my religion) of the child universe he created? This question is asked so as to stimulate the mind as to what it really means when we use the term God. Do we mean the intelligent designer/creator of this universe or to we mean an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe. An interesting question to ask of science now is if it is actually possible for an advanced race to obtain the minimal requirements to do the job. Perhaps God will not allow this to happen so perhaps He made it impossible. There's the fun of physics and religion. We can ask these cool questions. We don't really need an answer because it is usually the question that leads us to new and interesting things.
In the sense of an intelligent designer then I hold that the answe is yes, i.e. we can say that a "god" designed the universe and caused it to come into existance.

Note: I won't discuss religion in a physis discussion board beyond what I've said in this thread up to and including this post. If you want to continue then I suggest you start a thread in the appropriate forum.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: majorminor on 04/05/2013 09:46:35
How would a parallel line affect another parallel line. When I think of multi-verses , I imagine them to exist because of directional splits in a time line.  Major decisions being made , fractures in what was deterministic becoming   quantum  -both things happen making for  time lines like in the SF movies.  I know this thinking is simplistic but  if it was the case, I imagine that the other universe is in perfect balance with ours(if any contact was possible) and  would only be physically available by faster than speed of light travel. This I imagine because when the split happens I think of it as a function of distance.  How many splits happen ? Does every possible thing occur or human observation has it's say.
I know FM  that you are looking to see if there is mathematics or a theory that suggests there is such another universe having any affect on  'ours' but for me, these multi-verses are lost in time.
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: Bill S on 04/05/2013 17:33:58
Quote from: Pmb
I won't discuss religion in a physis discussion board beyond what I've said in this thread up to and including this post. If you want to continue then I suggest you start a thread in the appropriate forum.

I have recently left a discussion forum because science threads were constantly being derailed by religion, philosophy and general acrimony; so I totally agree with you.  Your comments about Da Vinci demonstrate the sort of misunderstanding that can arise out of the non-precision of a living language and its usage. Of course he created works of art.  That is simply a case of producing something that is greater than the sum of its parts, and that something is difficult to define outside the realm of subjective opinion.

The "rules" of English usage permit the use of "create" both in the case of works of art and the production of universes from pre-existing false vacuums, but my own feeling is that greater precision would be achieved by using a term such as "manufacture" and reserving "create" for creation from nothing.

Just an opinion.

Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: yor_on on 04/05/2013 22:14:09
It's a hard one isn't it ? I recently stated that most of the new patents in gene techniques are no more than us copying what nature already present us with. Physics is also building on what nature present us with, so are we inventing anything here, or are we just copying? To find new things, and ways to use them, involving lots of testing and clever experiments, to use your mind to unravel new things about the universe? I think I still would call it inventing, but to really 'invent' something, in a pure sense, we might need to be able to 'create', as Bill points out here.

And that is indeed a cool question.
Will we 'create'?

although, it is in the philosophy domain that one :)
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: majorminor on 04/05/2013 23:50:54
I think u created a cool question or thought of a question not often asked created many years ago with a big bang that forced all possibilities that we are slowly only recognizing small parts  one question at at time.  Wine for me, I am usually a beer drinker but I am being creative tonight.

keep on creating , evolving etc
Title: Re: How would a parallel universe affect our Universe?
Post by: dlorde on 06/05/2013 10:23:49
... my own feeling is that greater precision would be achieved by using a term such as "manufacture" and reserving "create" for creation from nothing.

But creation from nothing surely isn't a scientific concept (and would seem to contradict the laws of thermodynamics) - unless you mean creation from the quantum vacuum, which isn't really 'nothing'...