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An essay in futility, too long to read :)
An essay in futility, too long to read :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #20 on:
20/09/2009 17:33:25 »
But there is a strangeness to our photon. Having no time intrinsically, still observed in time. Without acceleration, still moving 'fastest' of all. Having no size, yet possible to define inside the observers 'time' as singular 'objects'. And as a wave, everywhere at the same 'time'.
So, what do you think?
Does a 'perfect vacuum' contain 'something'?
I say it contain what we call 'distances'?
Will it continue to contain that when we stop observing?
To my knowledge it will, as we can find them the same between measurements/observations.
A photon then, does it exist without our observing?
Well, we are basing them on sources and sinks, ain't we?
And if they have a source (Sun) and a sink (you) shouldn’t they be able to exist even between them?
So there you have something containing no 'distance' in itself, existing without 'time', agelessly if you like, but still possible to define as singular 'objects' as soon as we take notice of them. Let me ask you, how can something without 'distance' in itself be said to 'move'?
Take a paper, let's say one light-year large
Put that photon on its furthest edge.
Use your imaginary billiard cue to give it that 'push'.
How long will it take to move the whole paper?
A light-year you say?
But if it has no size.
How can it be said to move at all?
And if we jump into its 'timeless' state intrinsically.
How long would it take, as seen from that photons perspective, to 'move' over that paper?
No 'time' at all I say.
In fact I would describe that photon from its own perspective to be everywhere in SpaceTime at all observable 'time'. Or nowhere as that would be as true.
So have it really 'moved'?
And does it really have a 'boundary'?
Or maybe the right question should be.
When does it have a 'boundary'?
Also I need to point out that all definition I use, ever so loosely for particles and photons becomes even worse when defined mathematically. That as they all build on a statistical interpretations as I understands it, created from the observers approximations made for the task at hand. To know one particle you would need more information than what you can find and it also seems closely related to the idea of entropy.
Knowing a particular electron intimately is infinitely precious. A pure state of an electron is defined by its wave function (up to a phase). Thus knowing all about an electron requires in the traditional interpretation to know all about this wave function an infinite amount of information.
How is this notion of information related to information in terms of
Informally, entropy is often equated with information, but this is not
correct - entropy is _missing_ information!
More precisely, in the statistical interpretation, the state belongs
not to a single particle but to an ensemble of particles.
Entropy measures the amount of information missing for a complete
probabilistic description of a system.
Entropy is the mean number of binary questions that must be asked in
an optimal decision strategy to determine the state of a particular
realization given the state of the ensemble to which it belongs.
------------End quote---A theoretical physics FAQ--
Seen so what I’m doing here might easily be a travesty and assault on the concept of ‘information’. On the other hand, as I avoid knowing almost all of that information needed and then generalize my views building on generalizations made before me? I just might steer right according to that ancient principle ‘two wrongs make one right’. Or was it ‘two wrongs won’t make one right’?
The question I might ask here is this. If you can’t ever know all parameters for any given system, not even such a ‘small’ one as a particle, are we sure we are defining them right? I’m wondering if they exist in fact? In a way they must do, just like that ‘photon/wave’ but when trying to observe them we looses sight of them, and the closer we try to come defining them, the more information seems to be missing. On the other hand, we all know that there are no such thing as a ‘simple’ particle. HUP and mathematical ‘infinities’ makes sure of that. I don’t need theoretical physics to see that one. If there would be a 'law' steering the ‘simple’ toward the ‘complex ‘then that law also would need to rest inside 'time'. On the other hand this universe to me seems more and more to in ‘reality’ working just the opposite way. What we call ‘small’ like those particles is infinite in their possible variations but when they add up to ‘invariant mass’ they become much less ‘fuzzy’, do you agree? So maybe we have it backwards, why would the ‘picture’ become clearer to us as more ‘restmass’ is added to a object, or SpaceTime? Well, up to the point of a Black Holes, that is?
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #21 on:
20/09/2009 17:34:34 »
Do you remember that I wondered what a electron was, and its ‘vibrations’.
A bare electron is the formal entity discussed in textbooks when they do perturbative quantum electrodynamics. The intuitive picture generally given is that a bare electron is surrounded
by a cloud of virtual photons and virtual electron-positron pairs to make up a physical, 'dressed' electron. Only the latter is real and observable. The former is a formal caricature of the latter,
with paradoxical properties (infinite mass, etc.).
On a more substantial level, the observable electrons are produced from the bare electrons by a process called renormalization, which modifies the propagators by self-energy terms and the currents by form factors. As the name says, the latter define the 'form' of a particle. (In the above picture, it would correspond
to the shape of the virtual cloud, though it is better to avoid giving the virtual particles too much of meaning.)
The dressed object is the renormalized, physical object, described perturbatively as the bare object 'clothed' by the cloud of virtual particles. The dressed interaction is the 'screened' physical interaction between these dress objects.
To draw an analogy in nonrelativistic quantum mechanics think of nuclei as bare atoms, electrons as virtual particles, atoms as dressed nuclei and the residual interaction between atoms, computed in the Born-Oppenheimer approximation, as the dressed interaction. Thus, for Argon atoms, the dressed interaction is
something close to a Lennard-Jones potential, while the bare interaction is Coulomb repulsion. This is the situation physicists had in mind when they invented the notions of bare and dressed particles.
---------End of quote---A theoretical physics FAQ-
The point here is that word ‘renormalization’. What it states is that we need to make approximations, adapting all our information to fit an already defined form as I see it. And the reason we do it is that we then get a easier ‘understood’ physical reality, more seamlessly fitting as I understands it? Do we really need that?
In quantum field theory, the statistical mechanics of fields, and the theory of self-similar geometric structures, renormalization refers to a collection of techniques used to take a continuum limit.
When describing space and time as a continuum, certain statistical and quantum mechanical constructions are ill defined. In order to define them, the continuum limit has to be taken carefully.
Renormalization determines the relationship between parameters in the theory, when the parameters describing large distance scales differ from the parameters describing small distances. Renormalization was first developed in quantum electrodynamics (QED) to make sense of infinite integrals in perturbation theory. Initially viewed as a suspect, provisional procedure by some of its originators, renormalization eventually was embraced as an important and self-consistent tool in several fields of physics and mathematics.
To give any meaning at all to a quantum field theory one must first regulate it, by in effect removing from the theory all states having energies much larger than some cutoff . With a cutoff in place one is no longer plagued by infinities in calculations of the scattering amplitudes and other properties of the theory. For example, integrals over loop momenta in perturbation theory are cut off around and thus are well defined. However the cutoff seems very artificial. The use of a cutoff apparently contradicts the notion, developed above, that the short-distance structure of the theory is important to the long-distance behavior; with the cutoff one is throwing away the short-distance structure. Furthermore it’s a new and artificial parameter in the theory. Thus it is traditional to remove the cutoff by taking it to infinity at the end of any calculation. This last step is the source of much of the mystery in the renormalization procedure, and it now appears likely that this last step is also a wrong step in the non perturbative analysis of many theories, including QED.
------What is Renormalization? By G.Peter Lepage----
Here is a somewhat more intricate explanation.
Early in the history of quantum field theory, it was found that many seemingly innocuous calculations, such as the perturbative shift in the energy of an electron due to the presence of the electromagnetic field, give infinite results. The reason is that the perturbation theory for the shift in an energy involves a sum over all other energy levels, and there are infinitely many levels at short distances which each give a finite contribution.
Many of these problems are related to failures in classical electrodynamics that were identified but unsolved in the 19th century, and they basically stem from the fact that many of the supposedly "intrinsic" properties of an electron are tied to the electromagnetic field which it carries around with it. The energy carried by a single electron—its self energy—is not simply the bare value, but also includes the energy contained in its electromagnetic field, its attendant cloud of photons. The energy in a field of a spherical source diverges in both classical and quantum mechanics, but as discovered by Weisskopf, in quantum mechanics the divergence is much milder, going only as the logarithm of the radius of the sphere.
The solution to the problem, presciently suggested by Stueckelberg, independently by Bethe after the crucial experiment by Lamb, implemented at one loop by Schwinger, and systematically extended to all loops by Feynman and Dyson, with converging work by Tomonaga in isolated postwar Japan, is called renormalization. The technique of renormalization recognizes that the problem is essentially purely mathematical, that extremely short distances are at fault. In order to define a theory on a continuum, first place a cutoff on the fields, by postulating that quanta cannot have energies above some extremely high value. This has the effect of replacing continuous space by a structure where very short wavelengths do not exist, as on a lattice. Lattices break rotational symmetry, and one of the crucial contributions made by Feynman, Pauli and Villars, and modernized by 't Hooft and Veltman, is a symmetry preserving cutoff for perturbation theory. There is no known symmetrical cutoff outside of perturbation theory, so for rigorous or numerical work people often use an actual lattice.
On a lattice, every quantity is finite but depends on the spacing. When taking the limit of zero spacing, we make sure that the physically-observable quantities like the observed electron mass stay fixed, which means that the constants in the Lagrangian defining the theory depend on the spacing. Hopefully, by allowing the constants to vary with the lattice spacing, all the results at long distances become insensitive to the lattice, defining a continuum limit.
The renormalization procedure only works for a certain class of quantum field theories, called renormalizable quantum field theories. A theory is perturbatively renormalizable when the constants in the Lagrangian only diverge at worst as logarithms of the lattice spacing for very short spacings.
--------End of quote---
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #22 on:
20/09/2009 17:35:39 »
Do you remember that I wondered before about Planck length?
In that quote there came that line stating
" In particle physics and physical cosmology, the Planck scale is an energy scale around 1.22 × 1028 eV (which corresponds by the mass–energy equivalence to the Planck mass 2.17645 × 10−8 kg) at which quantum effects of gravity become strong. At this scale, the description of sub-atomic particle interactions in terms of quantum field theory breaks down (due to the non-renormalizability of gravity).
So you can’t ‘renormalize’ Gravity, interesting
And renormlization came from QED (quantum electrodynamics) right?
Which then is " the statistical mechanics of fields, and the theory of self-similar geometric structures, renormalization refers to a collection of techniques used to take a continuum limit. When describing space and time as a continuum, certain statistical and quantum mechanical constructions are ill defined. In order to define them, the continuum limit has to be taken carefully. "
Ok, so we set 'judicial self-elected brakes ' (Sounds nice) on physical processes to make those become finite (view/defin-able?), instead of infinite if I got that right, right
" The problem of infinities first arose in the classical electrodynamics of point particles "
Where the equations made showed that the outcome of mass-energy inside a electrostatic field of mass created by a charged particle would become smaller than the Compton wavelength of the electron.
Now, what the heck is a 'Compton wave length'?
" The Compton wavelength can be thought of as a fundamental limitation on measuring the position of a particle, taking quantum mechanics and special relativity into account. This depends on the mass m \ of the particle. To see this, note that we can measure the position of a particle by bouncing light off it - but measuring the position accurately requires light of short wavelength. Light with a short wavelength consists of photons of high energy. If the energy of these photons exceeds mc^2 \ , when one hits the particle whose position is being measured the collision may have enough energy to create a new particle of the same type. This renders moot the question of the original particle's location. This argument also shows that the Compton wavelength is the cutoff below which quantum field theory– which can describe particle creation and annihilation – becomes important. "
Ok I can see that below the Compton wave length we fall down the hole of Quantum Field Theory
Where " photons are not thought of as 'little billiard balls', they are considered to be field quanta - necessarily chunked ripples in a field that 'look like' particles. Fermions, like the electron, can also be described as ripples in a field, where each kind of fermion has its own field. In summary, the classical visualization of "everything is particles and fields", in quantum field theory, resolves into "everything is particles", which then resolves into "everything is fields". In the end, particles are regarded as excited states of a field (field quanta). "
So here there will be only fields with 'ripples' according to this idea?
And where does our ‘arrow of time’ fit?
How does it grow from that ‘field ripples’?
And what are its ‘distances/dimensions’?
- - Quote--
Physicist Johan Prins, from the University of Pretoria, South Africa, says that both prior to, and after, the introduction of quantum mechanics, a fundamental problem has persisted. “Classical electrodynamics required that the electron should be modeled as a point-particle, but when they tried to model the electron as a particle with a radius, inconsistencies arose,” explains Prins. Niggling problems with electrons are nothing new, and Feynman himself acknowledged this in The Feynman Lectures on Physics II. One of the biggest problems, says Prins, is that: “today’s electron-electron scattering experiments indicate that the electron’s radius could be infinitesimally small, which causes the energy of the electric field around the electron to be infinitely large.” So in order to avoid completely nonsensical answers, a mathematical procedure called renormalization was introduced to remove infinity from equations, so that scientists could find a workable answer to their calculations rather than what amounted to gibberish. Prins states that this: “procedure has become such an inherent part of all quantum field theories, that at present the ‘renormalizability of a theory’ is accepted as proof that the theory is realistic.”
Prins believes that renormalization provides a distorted view of reality, which is worrying, as physicists have relied on renormalization to inform much of their research, including attempts to reconcile the quantum and classical worlds in order to arrive at the coveted Theory of Everything (TOE). According to Prins, it is not the mathematics that is wrong with quantum mechanics, nor quantum mechanics itself. Rather, it is what physicists assume they are analyzing and measuring that is erroneous. “The electron is not a particle with uncertainties in position and momentum, but a holistic wave that occupies space,” argues Prins. “The uncertainties describe the size of the wave in position and wave-vector spaces. These sizes can morph instantaneously when the boundary conditions change. Furthermore, a photon can merge with such a wave [entangle] to form another electron-wave with a higher energy. It is such instantaneous entanglement that corresponds to a quantum jump.” So, according to Prins, an electron is a wave; not a particle, or even a particle with wave-duality. “There are only waves which can instantaneously morph to occupy a large space [delocalize] or a smaller space [localize] and then act as if it is a particle owing to Gauss' law being applicable,” he said.
Now, here we find another approach to reality
Calling that wave ‘holistic’ being everywhere at the same time defining itself at our observation or as its ‘boundary conditions change’. I like the idea of it being ‘indeterminable’ as that fits right into my view too, and boundary conditions is a very nice way of putting it relating to my question of ‘observers’ for me. But my point-like ? point
though, differing from this is that you can’t have any objects defined, ever. What we have is more like a kind of ‘shadow play’ where that dimensionless ‘times’ smallest? constituents will act upon ‘stimuli’ creating geometrical forms and distances to us, but not through anything resembling our arrow of time. So I take it one ‘crazy step’ further I guess
On the other hand this ‘holistic’ idea seems quite near a ‘distance less’ universe. And I’m agreeing to questioning the idea of renormalization. A TOE built on generalizing information to make it fit seems like a dangerous choice to make as it either says that to much information is a bad thing, even though I can agree on that at times, or that the information ‘not fitting’ then somehow must be wrong. Of course it could be a problem resting on your choice of mathematical interpretation too, like those parallel lines that always will meet in the end, according to that faultless theorem. So what we describe mathematically by our renormalization may be our exact universe but as we are using a subtly wrong math for it, if followed describing a universe where nothing ‘stops’ and all seems to go to infinities of possibilities sooner or later, we then are forced to ‘limit’ our possibilities. Or it could be so that the math without that renormalization is the perfect correct one for this SpaceTime and it’s us that misses out on the meal, so to speak, not seeing the reality of it at all. Feynman is told to have expressed it this way: "Renormalization is like having a toilet in your house. Everyone knows it's there, but you don't talk about it."
As for needing to ‘dress’ electrons?
What we have is something existing defined as being part of a larger ‘system’ called an atom. It need the properties we give it to explain the properties of that system and its/their possible interactions with other systems growing as we work our way up macroscopically, but not to a more complex view, rather a more unified with clear ‘edges’ macroscopically. If what we have is instant continuos ‘materialization’s’ or ‘disturbances’ of our space creating what we see as part of a ‘rest mass’ (electron) then I would expect that we will find it ill-defined, it may not be a part of our ‘arrow of time’, perhaps its ‘transitions’ lies on that scale just over virtual particles? And so ‘flickers’ and behaves ‘indeterminate’ containing infinities of definitions. It can’t be defined as a particle mathematically as it won’t adapt to having any ‘still’ ‘edges/contour’ to it though it to us should have just that, as we see it as a part of invariant mass. If my idea makes sense then I expect objects ‘edges’ to become simpler and clearer to define as they grow macroscopically. And our Black holes is where macroscopic objects breaks down into ‘infinities’ again. But how can a ‘relation’ become mass, doesn't it need something 'material' producing it? In chaos-math there is this idea of 'the mystical attractor' which consists of a consistent area in the observers time containing nothing in itself yet attracting all 'events' around it, or if you like, defined as ‘something’ observable due to the agitation (events) surrounding and defining it. That 'attractor' seems to me similar to my idea of 'time-relations' creating what we call 'mass' and photons, and creating the 'boundaries' defining them. By excluding the idea of 'mass' as something on its own and instead describe it as interactions of time meeting time, creating boundaries, density and geometry as observed by us I come to a much stranger image of our world but, hopefully so that is, a more coherent one.
But it doesn't explain free will and its consequences, like you deciding that 'I
won't read a word more of this freewheeling BS ... Ah hmm, well..
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #23 on:
20/09/2009 17:36:34 »
One simple description I found illuminating this is that of a photon, either moving vertically towards an object of mass like our Earth, or horizontally passing it by. It is proved that the photons 'relative mass' will be roughly twice as large for the horizontally passing photon as when compared to it going 'down' vertically impacting on Earth. This is due to the fact that the gravitational attraction between two relativistic bodies is not related to their 'energy contents' solely but also to their energy-momentum tensors. (It is this 'factor of two' that gives the correct 'deflection angle' for starlight passing, bending themselves around our sun). This also illuminates the concept of 'mass' as something not necessarily intrinsical in the object but better described as being a 'relation'. I know that some might see the 'photon' as having an intrinsic 'rest mass', but I don't, I see it as a 'momentum' created by the rule of its 'movement' and differ between momentum and rest mass. Another point that need to be made here is that even though I believe photons to be mass-less it seems that they still can 'transfer' what we define as invariant mass or rest mass. As long as the receiving end of that photons momentum is massive enough so that its kinetic recoil becomes negligible. If that is true somehow the interference by something outside our 'arrow of time' (virtual photons?) will mediate’ momentum’ to something measurable inside our 'arrow of time’. Remember that it is 'relations' we are discussing here created by different 'frames', as observed by you. So if you have two objects 'A' and 'B' attracting or repulsing each other as observed by you, where exactly is this strange thing that I name the 'relation'. Can we say that the force(s) belong to 'A' or 'B' or should we say that it/they belongs to both? Or to neither??
In physics there is a word used to arbitrary define objects and relations as a ‘whole’, ‘unified concept’. It's called a 'system', can we define ‘A’ and ‘B’ and their, ah, insidious relation(s) as being a 'system' observed by you? I think we can even though I find the idea of 'systems' very vague to me. Probably there exist a definition that make more sense than what I have made here
as I feel that my notion(s) of it still doesn't pinpoint what a ‘system’ really is. As it is now though I would like to look at it, when defined as a 'system', as if those relations takes place at all 'points' in what ever ‘system’ we have defined, in various degrees depending on what the forces acting between the objects is and the 'distances' involved. In fact I would like to suggest that this is what all relations is, something taking place to various degrees between two different 'frames/objects' as observed by a ‘observer’. I will discuss the concept of ‘observers’ and how I see that concept later. A ‘relation’ is very like a mysterious attractor in chaos math, there without one being able to 'pinpoint' to its location at any stage. As we all know if having a relation
Another way to see it is to incorporate HUP in it (Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle). HUP states that it will be impossible for any observer to measure both energy and time (or position and momentum) completely accurately at the same time for any frame/object in SpaceTime.
And I would expect it to have far-reaching consequences if HUP would be seen as a general rule applying to all objects, subatomic as well as macroscopic, if believing some physicists ongoing research. But as a object gains 'size' the uncertainty of its constituents momentum's and simultaneous positions doesn't add up and increase as I might expect thinking of all that inherent fuzziness, instead they seem to take each other out, with what we finally observe becoming quite ‘sharp’ and easy to define spatially. Take some time to ponder how our SpaceTime might look if uncertainties instead did 'add up' macroscopically, why , my teacup might be situated at my navel instead of my mouth if so, or worse, at both locations simultaneously. But if that macroscopic object (teacup) constituents would be observed at a quantum level its momentum's/positions still wouldn't be possible to define simultaneously, no matter how sharp your instruments are, ever. Some want to believe this theory (HUP) to be hanging on the impossibility of creating 'instruments' good/sharp enough to observe both at the same time, but that, as far as I know, is wrong. There is, and always will be, an impossibility of pertaining both information's at the exact same position in space and time, with the possible exception of when they are observed macroscopically at which 'time' that fuzziness seems to become unobservable.
But turn it around, what does this say about what ‘really’ builds itself up to us? Doesn’t that phenomena need to ‘see’ what it is doing? There should be some way to relate to it. Somehow all ‘forces’ we have defined works, right. They are consistent and repeatable, even when not observable more than as theories, renormalized or not. This states to me that if it can be built it should be able to pick apart somehow. Even if what we find on that ‘level’ to be nothing we can know, we should still be able to see its ‘principles’ of building. And that is what I think we should try for. So what do HUP tell me about distance and the possibility of 'pinpointing' anything? That it's all about relations and 'sliding realities', no 'objective' truths involved. And if you can't isolate/pinpoint a object in SpaceTime without its outlines/geometry becoming fuzzy/doubtful it must mean something.
Going back to our own universe we have photons quarks leptons like electrons atoms molecules at all times interacting, each one I assume to having their own 'time density' showing itself by what and how you choose to observe and 'restrict' your 'system'. Think about it, you as a person have one defined 'time density/ clock tick' even though the 'time density/clock tick' for your molecules quarks etc should be otherwise depending on size, relative speed and your focus of observation. Then it may also be so that when we are on those holy grounds of quarks electrons etc that they don’t interact as we expect at all. As seems to be the case with the electron. And if so perhaps my idea of Plank size being the border for observable ‘restmass’ was a little to hasty. If it is the cause that all particles in that atom needs to be renormalized? Then maybe all of them rests on that indeterminate border of ‘infinities’ or as I see it, on that ‘distance less’ ‘dimension’. To describe a wave as something without any specific location can be seen two ways it seems, for me. You can accept this universe to be really really big
and then those waves as being as big or ‘bigger’ Or you might see it as size don’t ‘exist’ as all waves might rest super imposed on our universe, according to Johan Prins from the University of Pretoria. To me the later example makes more sense. I told you I was. . ., didn’t I?
Why, well it fits my universe, to me it seems more a matter of questioning the idea of ‘distance’ and its constant companion ‘arrow of time’ to turn things right. I choose to do it using time as the common nominator as I see that arrow of time as what creates a living universe. Mass alone can’t do it as ‘mass’ won’t exist without our ‘arrow of time’, neither can space. But when I introduce my idea of ‘distances’ as being something questionable I also need to ask myself what would allow something without ‘distance’ to be able to act ‘everywhere’ in SpaceTime. If distance doesn’t exist then his idea of a wave imposed on a whole universe seems like some ‘mirrored’ description to me. Making as much sense as my idea although as I understands it not discussing the same ‘predecessors’ as I choose. But as I’m a layman to me things need to make ‘sense’ even without the math if I want to understand it. And so to suffice my curiosity I might have to question the way I’ve tried to describe it as two, more or less, separate ‘reality’s’ communicating here. Perhaps that would be wrong then perhaps it is ‘one’, not two realities, and perhaps ‘distance’ ‘cut us of’ from that true experience. I’m almost religious now, ain’t I? To me it’s still a play with concepts so don’t worry, yet. Could there be some ‘rule’ covering both particles and photons, allowing them this ‘step through’ from nothingness to SpaceTime? As it seems to crave one for us, merely living inside that ‘arrow of time’. And as I said before, I hope? That what I see as creating those different ‘realities, ‘sizes’ and complexities’ to be something similar to a ‘fractal behavior’.
There you are, all problems solved. Send me that Nobel prize.. Sorry, another bad joke.. But I believe that it is our arrow that creates a ‘time direction’ creating a possibility for those ‘shimmering’ indeterminate particles and photons to maintain a continuity and clotting into ‘restmass’, then growing into ‘invariant mass’ creating what we see as distances in the process, ending with creating evermore complexity like the idea of life and from there the idea of Ethics, ‘right and wrong’ and ‘God(s)’. If that would be right it truly is a ‘information space’ opening itself, unfolding into ever more complexity. One more crazy thought, what if the ‘end process’ would be ‘SpaceTime’ admiring itself? And then also, according to this view having done so at all ‘times’ as at on that ‘strata’ what we see as our ‘times arrow’ has no meaning. That one is disturbing though as it seems to imply a ‘clock-work’ predefined for us, so it’s probably wrong. Or it might be that it’s ‘admiring’ all possible outcomes simultaneously in which case ‘many paths’ is what we have? Forget it, just me wondering
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #24 on:
20/09/2009 17:38:03 »
Another thing, if you would see this as ‘information’ then I might as easily ask you if that space inside the Black Hole then will contain more information as it has ‘grown’ as seen from the inside and in fact from the outside too, if you accept that your ‘shrinking’ ruler will be restored when lifted out from inside that EV. You might ask if this ‘growing space’, if it is a result of ‘invariant mass’ then somehow will have used ‘information’ from the Black Hole itself? Is that possible? Shouldn’t everything have only one direction here, pointing to the Black holes core? As ‘information’ seemed to be locked to our ‘arrow of time’ when we considered photons and FTL. So if that space has ‘grown’ it cant be because of what we deem as any normal type of ‘energy’ can it? Contained in our arrow of time, but ‘virtual photons’ are still outside it, right? But gravity in itself will point the same way as the objects traveling its geodesics? Or am I getting this backwards? Do gravity walk one way and energy and restmass the other? But if it all comes from something without ‘distances’ expressing itself in every ‘point’ of our ‘macroscopic SpaceTime’? And the rules then as a effect of some fractal behavior? And ‘distances’ a ‘lie’?
I told you I was. . .
If that was right whatever decisions we make will become even more important it seems to me. What we define our ‘free will’ will then be the ‘searchlight’ through times ‘monolith’ creating our art. Ethics becomes incomparably important then to me, you might wonder if the idea of this ‘beholding’ the universe might be indulging itself in have some importance. I don’t know, but I would prefer that ‘art’ we create to be something I can feel relaxed with, all said and done, not refugee camps and starving, concentration camps and genocide, but something more pleasing to the eye and senses.
Maybe that ‘monolith’ contains all chains of cause and effect as well as all ‘time’? If that is correct then all possible outcomes exist, and what you think you lost might still be there. And our ‘arrow of time’ also create a coherence to our individual ‘free will ‘as we all are bound to the same ‘arrow of time’. This ‘stream’ if you will, taking us in with it, not excluding that other streams might exist. And the problem of which ‘arrow of time’ then should be seen as ‘most right’ is simple. The one I’m in of course
Why? Well that’s the one I will know, ain’t it? It reminds me of ‘many paths’ scenarios in which all ‘acts/actions/processes’ should ‘bifurcate/split’ into different universes, constantly creating new ones. But it could as easy be so that this ‘monolith’, although containing all possible acts and consequences, only realize the time-line we actualize.
Like before consciousness coming, purposely choosing one action before another, SpaceTime just was a ‘mechanical universe’ going through interactions but not really ‘splitting’ up, like a still image containing it all but not ‘realizing’ any of it. I’m not sure I’m expressing this right though. Think of it as a holographic image containing everything but having no need to present a different view until you start to move .And if that’s the fact then our ‘art’ of living won’t be able to find the consolation that on that other ‘time-line’ everything went ‘well’. And if that is true, your choice of living becomes even more important, well, if you like good art
That is.. And as your 'time density' is more or less the same as mine. And as our planet share a 'time density' with the solar system and that with our galaxies, ad infinitum. They all seem to exist there simultaneously seamlessly, giving different answers depending on your resolution and choice of comparison. But we change SpaceTime by our choices.
So you think I’m weird do you
Can’t blame you.
Take a look at this though. And remember, it all started with HUP..
In 1976 Leggett left Sussex on teaching exchange to the University of Science and Technology in Kumasi, the second largest city in Ghana. For the first time in many years, he had free time to really think, but the university's library was woefully out of date. Leggett decided to work on an idea that didn't require literature because few had thought about it since David Bohm: nonlocal hidden variables theories. He found a result, filed the paper in a drawer, and didn't think about it again until the early 2000s.
Leggett doesn't believe quantum mechanics is correct, and there are few places for a person of such disbelief to now turn. But Leggett decided to find out what believing in quantum mechanics might require. He worked out what would happen if one took the idea of nonlocality in quantum mechanics seriously, by allowing for just about any possible outside influences on a detector set to register polarizations of light. Any unknown event might change what is measured. The only assumption Leggett made was that a natural form of realism hold true; photons should have measurable polarizations that exist before they are measured. With this he laboriously derived a new set of hidden variables theorems and inequalities as Bell once had. But whereas Bell's work could not distinguish between realism and locality, Leggett's did. The two could be tested.
When Aspelmeyer returned to Vienna, he grabbed the nearest theorist he could find, Tomasz Paterek, whom everyone calls "Tomek." Tomek was at the IQOQI on fellowship from his native Poland and together, they enlisted Simon Gröblacher, Aspelmeyer's student. With Leggett's assistance, the three spent six months painfully checking his calculations. They even found a small error. Then they set about recasting the idea, with a few of the other resident theorists, into a form they could test. When they were done, they went to visit Anton Zeilinger. The experiment wouldn't be too difficult, but understanding it would. It took them months to reach their tentative conclusion: If quantum mechanics described the data, then the lights' polarizations didn't exist before being measured. Realism in quantum mechanics would be untenable.
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Yeah? So what??
Well, the question asked in this experiment is stated as.. Do we create the world just by looking at it? Is there a ‘objective reality’ existing before your experiments or are they ‘created’ by the way you look at them. And the reasoning behind it all goes like this..
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #25 on:
20/09/2009 17:38:46 »
According to Bohr every measuring device affects what it is used to observe. The quantum world is discrete and so there can never be absolute precision during a measurement. To know about quantum mechanics, we rely on classical devices. To Bohr this implied that the hierarchy between observer and observed had no meaning; they were nonseparable. Concepts once thought to be mutually exclusive, such as waves and particles, were also complements. The difference was only language.
By contrast Einstein was a realist who believed in a world independent of the way it is measured. During a set of conferences at the Hotel Metropole in Brussels, he and Bohr argued famously over the validity of quantum mechanics and Einstein presented a number of thought experiments intended to show the theory incorrect. But when Bohr used Einstein's own theory of relativity to evade one of these thought experiments, Einstein was so stung he never tried to disprove quantum mechanics again, though he continued to criticize it.
In 1935, from an idyllic corner of New Jersey, Einstein and two young collaborators began a different assault on quantum mechanics. Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen (EPR) did not question the theory's correctness, but rather its completeness. More than the notion that god might play dice, what most bothered Einstein were quantum mechanics' implications for reality. As Einstein prosaically inquired once of a walking companion, "Do you really believe that the moon exists only when you look at it?"
The EPR paper begins by asserting that there's a real world outside theories. "Any serious consideration of a physical theory must take into account the distinction between the objective reality, which is independent of any theory, and the physical concepts with which the theory operates." If quantum mechanics is complete, then "every element of physical reality must have a counterpart in the physical theory." EPR argued that objects must have preexisting values for measurable quantities and that this implied that certain elements of reality could not be determined by quantum mechanics.
They claim that given a specific experiment, in which the outcome of a measurement could be known before the measurement takes place, there must exist something in the real world, an "element of reality", which determines the measurement outcome. They postulate that these elements of reality are local, in the sense that they belong to a certain point in spacetime. This element may only be influenced by events which are located in the backward light cone of this point in spacetime. Even though these claims sound reasonable and convincing, they are founded on assumptions about nature which constitute what is now known as local realism.
----end of quote-)
Einstein and his colleagues imagined two electrons that collide and fly apart. After the collision the electrons exist in a state of superposition of the possible values for their momenta. Mathematically and physically, it makes no sense to say that either electron has a definite momentum independent of the other before measurement; they are "entangled." But when one electron's momentum is measured, the value of the other's is instantly known and the superpositions collapse. Once the momentum is known for a particle, we cannot measure its position. This element of reality is denied us by the uncertainty principle. Even stranger is that this occurs even when the electrons fly vast distances apart before measurement. Quantum mechanics still describes the electrons as a single system across space. Einstein could never stomach that an experiment at one electron would instantaneously affect the other.
(Yep, that’s right, without believing in it they defined/discovered ‘entanglement’:)
In Copenhagen Bohr began an immediate response. It didn't matter if particles might affect one another over vast distances, or that particles had no observable properties before they are observed. As Bohr later said, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description." Physicists' discourse on reality began just as the world slid inexorably toward war. During WWII physicists once interested in philosophy worried about other issues. David Bohm, however, did worry. After the war Bohm was a professor at Princeton, where he wrote a famous textbook on quantum mechanics. Einstein thought it was the best presentation of quantum mechanics he had read, and when Bohm began to challenge the theory, Einstein said, "If anyone can do it, then it will be Bohm."
In 1952, during the Red Scare, Bohm moved to Brazil. There he discovered a theory in which a particle's position was determined by a "hidden variable" even when its momentum was absolutely known. To Bohm reality was important, and so to preserve it, he was willing to abandon locality and accept that entangled particles influenced one another over vast distances. However, Bohm's hidden variables theory made the same predictions as quantum mechanics, which already worked.
In America Bohm's theory was ignored. But when the Irishman John Bell read Bohm's idea, he said, "I saw the impossible done." Bell thought hidden variables might show quantum mechanics incomplete. Starting from Bohm's work, Bell derived another kind of hidden variables theory that could make predictions different from those of quantum mechanics. The theories could be tested against one another in an EPR-type experiment. But Bell made two assumptions that quantum mechanics does not; the world is local (no distant influences) and real (preexisting properties). If quantum mechanics were correct, one or both of these assumptions were false, though Bell's theorem could not determine which.
Bell's work on local hidden variables theory stirred little interest until the 1970s, when groups lead by John Clauser, Abner Shimony, and others devised experimental schemes in which the idea could be tested with light's polarizations instead of electrons' momentum. Then in 1982 a young Frenchman named Alain Aspect performed a rigorous test of Bell's theory on which most physicists finally agreed. Quantum mechanics was correct, and either locality or realism was fundamentally wrong.
------------End of quote------------
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #26 on:
20/09/2009 17:40:00 »
It’s from a very nice text, called ‘the reality tests’ by Joshua Roebke.
Get it to your ‘E-library’. I like it, a lot, and the experiment if stringently asked should be long underway now. The question I ask, if I assume that we do have a effect on what we’re ‘touching’ and that ‘distance’ is both ‘true and false’, must then become if we all are in some way ‘entangled’? But we only relate it to some effects right, and only on a QM level as yet? But I see this experiment as questioning that. As if this was correct then the ‘macroscopic’ you affect the outcomes? Then again, that ‘you’ is a matter of particles too…
You could of course define time as being of a different 'dimension' to explain it but that doesn't simplify anything. But to me 'time' is a relation acting on the focus of a observer. So that would just make my headache grow again just as I thought that I’d succeeded in explaining the concept of dimensions / distances / time to my satisfaction. What a relation is? You say you don’t know? That young, huh? Well thinking of it, I’m not that sure either. A definition I found states that a relation is 'an abstraction belonging to, or characteristic of, two entities or parts together'. That seems to me to state that without preceding parts existing there can be no relations. So my question here might be if it would be possible to consider it the ‘other way around’, with the ‘relations’ creating the ‘parts’. Why we use the opposite definition is quite simple to understand, that is the way we perceive our reality through our 'arrow of time'. Macroscopically no effect I know of can precede the events creating it. Although quantum mechanics seem to point to reactions/relations being possible to exist with time walking 'backwards' the objects creating it must still be there at both 'ends' and seen graphically the relation still will be firmly placed between the objects as a 'relation/reaction' created by their proximity ‘ (cause and effect). But then again, what about our Big Bang? How did we come to be? Maybe we only can come to be outside of ‘times arrow’. Even though the end processes show themselves inside it to us. And maybe ‘energy’ is getting properties inside that arrow that it does not have outside it. (Emergence)
Mass seems to me to be what nowadays is called 'invariant/rest/ - mass'. That is the kind of 'mass' remaining unchanged no matter what particular transformation is applied to it (like moving it near to a Black Hole f ex.). And with all other kinds of 'mass' more resembling what we call momentum to me. So if we create a uniformly moving system at keeping at 99.999999~ 'c' and compare it to another system moving at only a fraction of that speed, at a measly .1 'c', what differs between them. In this case we can be very sure at what speeds those two systems are relative us observing, that is as we accelerated both, So in that motto we might want to define our observing point as being 'point zero'. Of ‘zero speed’ relative those two objects, of course one could expect it to be possible to measure it inside those uniformly moving systems too, like you using a laser gun inside that 'fast 99.9999~' ship. With you studying that lights syrupy motion as it moves toward the nosecone trying to catch up to the ships near light speed. There is only one problem with that, the light doesn't care for your ships motion at all, it will move at the exact same light speed inside that ship relative its ‘frame of reference’ (Which is the ship in this case) as it will do for us observing it from 'point zero'. That is 299,792,458 meters per second in a vacuum and remember that it doesn't care about its 'starting position/objects' relative speed as it leaves the muzzle, to it all other speeds are as if nonexistent. So here we have a light beam moving at 'c' treating our ship as if it was immobile standing still, but we observing this from 'point zero' still know that we have accelerated that ship to 99.9999~ 'c' relative us? Does that mean, assuming the ship was made of glass, ah, thinking of it maybe this ones name should be Cinderella instead, that we from point zero would observe that laser-beam moving near 2'c'? That as it yet moves at 1 'c' (not caring for the ships already existing speed of 99.9999~ 'c') according to the observer on the ship?
No it doesn't, what we would observe though is that this beam would be of a weaker energy-content than what the observer inside the ship would see. Why? Remember that the ship is moving away from us as well as its beam, the reflected light of that beam would express itself as losing 'energy'. But then you might
say, what if he turned the laser around shooting towards the rear, directly at us? Wouldn’t it then become more energetic as observed by us? Shouldn’t it in fact almost ‘stand still’ relative us leaving us an imense time to wait until it reached us and if so, shouldn’t that first example never be seen by us as both the beam and the ship was moving with the beam then at double ‘c’ relative us. Yep, it should countermand the ships velocity at least shouldn’t it? And then it would be traveling to us very slowly, syrupy sort of, as there is nothing forbidding light to slow down
Wrrrongggg. It will still move at ‘c’ according to us outside observers, but of a weaker ‘energy content’ even though I would expect it to be stronger than when the beam was directed with the ships velocity. The rule about ‘c’ slowing down is only applicable in different densities but here we have the same density, a vacuum. That is crazy, really crazy, that light will treat all other speeds as if they doesn’t exist, don’t you agree? But it does. But it respects ‘distance’, and mass. And another thing worth considering. When light moves inside ‘invariant mass’ it is seen as to move via interactions with the ‘rest mass’ virtual photons as I understand it. That is, it ‘dies’ and gets ‘resurrected’ constantly until out of that densities ‘boundaries’ a little like a bullet constantly rebounding. But changing to a ‘new bullet’ at each rebound if I got it right? But if seen as a wave then? I’m not sure, there is this explanation though. “In a classical wave picture, the slowing can be explained by the light inducing electric polarization in the matter, the polarized matter radiating new light, and the new light interfering with the original light wave to form a ‘delayed’ wave.” Maybe? Then it sounds remarkably like the bullet, doesn’t it? It ‘dies’ which in a way is how it should be if they are ‘moving’ the same way.
How can that be, two persons observing the same phenomena experiencing two totally different things. It only seems possible if we accept it as ‘relations’ and not as any 'objects' in them self. Although this universe exist and it do contain objects of inherent values as seen by the discussion on light quanta and invariant mass, my question now is where they come from and how they exist. Let us take another look on my idea of defining that ‘point zero’ as being of ‘zero speed’. Can I really do so? I said that I believe that I can’t tell the ‘real speed’ of anything before, right? Except as a arbitrarily made comparison with something else. So how can I swear to that this point zero ain’t uniformly moving at 99.99~ ‘c’ whatever as it is. Well, I guess we could measure its relative motion against our universes background radiation (CBR)? Depending on our motion /speed that radiation should be red or blue shifted. That won’t guarantee anything, as far as I know, but it seems the best ‘ruler’ for measuring relative ‘uniform motion’ in SpaceTime as it is expected to cover all known ‘areas’ and seems much the same, even though there are some ‘discrepancies’ to it. It’s still just a comparison of course. Ah, thinking of discrepancies
Ever heard of CP violations?
If we take the entire universe and move it over by 100 meters, we say it has undergone a spatial transformation of 100 meters. Now imagine inverting space, that is, reflecting every point to the opposite side of a fixed (but arbitrary) center. This is known as a parity transformation, and is designated by the symbol P. Another possible transformation of the physical world is to take every single particle and turn it into its antiparticle. This is known as the charge conjugation transformation, and we refer to it using the symbol C.
If the universe would remain unchanged after being through a transformation, we say that it is symmetric, or invariant, under that transformation. In any physical model of the universe, the laws are represented by equations, and we can prove invariance under any given transformation by performing the transformation on the equations and seeing if the resulting equations are equivalent to the original ones. For example, the universe is invariant under spatial transformations - the laws are the same at any location, and it's impossible to tell whether the universe has undergone a spatial transformation.
If we consider a universe with no particles or interactions, the physical laws are also invariant under both P and C transformations. What we find if we introduce interactions is that some that exist in our universe would not exist in a P-transformed universe, and vice versa, in other words, the universe is NOT invariant under P. In pretty much the same way, we find it is not invariant under C. Amazingly, invariance is regained (almost) if we consider not just P or C, but the combined transformation CP.
The intriguing and maddening observation is that the laws are not-quite-invariant under CP transformations. In other words, we have CP violation.
It seems that this violation is what creates our Universe, if matter and antimatter was CP invariant then they would take each other out as I understands it (according to those mathematical ‘transformations/equations’.) We create experiments testing our observations. It seems that we can do that theoretically/mathematically too. That is, build a chain of ‘cause and effect’ on paper mathematically which we can ‘grow’ until we find something we believe to be testable physically
And then search for the evidence of our computations physically inside our SpaceTime. A very clever way of creating and testing a hypothesis, and one of the reasons I believe mathematics to be ‘the language of choice’ describing SpaceTime. Which also include all ‘universes’ we never will observe of course, all though we can give them credibility mathematically. One mathematical definition made (sometime in the end of eighteen hundred?) described a Universe where parallel lines always would meet in the end and according to what I read it was in itself perfectly consistent and provable mathematically. The question then becomes, do that universe exist ‘somewhere’?
Is all mathematics describing a ‘truth’? even if not fitting exactly our SpaceTime. I don’t know, I would guess that Math can be ‘wrong’ too though, creating ‘possibilities’ that never have been before we put in on print. But I’m not sure so I won’t swear to it. But it makes me wonder if it is possible to create a equation/transformation describing something ‘invariant’ without distances involved, that will have it when ‘turned around’? Probably not, then on the other hand our Universe is not ‘invariant’ meaning ‘the exact same/unchanged/symmetric’ under those transformations so the ‘trick’ might be to find that equation that can jump from ‘no distances’ to something containing them and fitting up to the descriptions we already have found defined doing those CP transformations? But if there is an in-equivalence in the SpaceTime we have there seems to me that there should be a ‘rest’ even when doing that transformation. But then again, I’m not thinking that there is ‘nothing’ left when the distances is gone. Something has to be there it seems, to create what we experience. When I say ‘nothing’ I’m thinking of our concept of dimensions meaning that they as well as any arrow of time then will be non-existent. But it seems that ‘pure math as well as hup shares the ‘unknowable’…
In 1931, Kurt Godel dropped a bomb on the mathematical world, as follows:
To every w-consistent recursive class k of formulae there correspond recursive class-signs r such that neither v Gen r nor Neg (v Gen r) belongs to Flg (k) (where v is the free variable of r).
Did you understand that? Good. I didn't expect you to either. In English, it essentially says that "All consistent axiomatic formulations of number theory include undecidable propositions" (Hofstadter D., Godel, Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, p.17). So how do we interpret that? A consistent system is one where it is impossible for a statement and its negation to be true simultaneously. In other words, "2 + 2 equals 4" and "2 + 2 is not equal to 4" cannot both be true. If they are both true, the system is inconsistent. So if we have a consistent system, it is possible to write a statement that is true, but cannot be proven.
Godel's genuis was to discover that by encoding the symbols of number theory into numbers themselves, and creating rules to manipulate those numbers, it is possible to write statements of number theory that have two meanings. The first is the literal meaning of the symbols themselves. However, if the numbers have been properly manipulated, there is a second "meta-meaning" to the statement, which can be obtained by reversing the encoding. Using this scheme, Godel was able to construct a statement (G) which had the meta-meaning "G has no proof". Since statement G was constructed using the proper formalisms and encoding on the literal level, the meta-meaning must be true. So it is possible to construct a statement which is true, but has no proof. Therefore in the mathematical world, there are unknowables as well.
Welcome to the ‘magic Universe’
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #27 on:
20/09/2009 17:41:05 »
It doesn’t ‘invalidate’ 2+2 becoming 4, it just relates it to its proper ‘sphere’ it seems? (SpaceTime). Just like my concept of thingies inside our arrow of time, intermediate to our arrow of time, and those ‘outside’ our arrow of time.. Can I see something ‘symmetric’ here?
If we assume our universe of time again with no geometric order existing except by that possibly found inside times 'density's', if you allow me my play with words, then what spatial coordinates would you expect from it. What did we say about the photon? It was intrinsically timeless and possible to superimpose without
taking any physical place at all. Our ‘real’ universe do have 'time', it's filled with 'time' or at least all possible relations coming out of 'time'. But to have a size it seems to me that there needs to be a boundary outlining and defining, at least the ‘object’ in it. Consider the geometry of all geometry's superimposed, if we could break/make them into quantum super-positions like photons are said to be able to. Doing so would break down everything we call distance or events, that as all ‘distances’ would contain all events, and all events would be superimposed everywhere. In that kind of universe the 'arrow of time' would lose all coherence and order. Somewhere I read that a ‘quantization’ of general relativity will lead to a superposition of all geometry's quantum-wise .
What I still haven't touched upon though, is that 'arrow of time' in itself. Is there such a thing and how does it comes to be? We have what we call entropy, that is as I see it a direct result from our ‘arrow’ but according to entropy all 'energies' will 'level out' as I understands it, in the end becoming unusable for any 'work done'. Does that mean that 'times arrow' will disappear too? Not if it is relating to mass I think. This is worth some thought though, mass change the time expressed with it, as seen from an observer outside, but does that time relation 'tagging down/weakening', if you like, have defined 'edges/jumps' to it or is it more of a smooth transition 'seamlessly watered out' as 'distance' grows to its original 'source'. Also, what is it that ‘ticks/vibrates’ giving us that linear ‘beat’? Let's go back to the first question. Why is there such a thing like the 'arrow of time'. There is one answer that I find quite simple even if somewhat roundabout.
What would the universe look without that arrow? Biological systems needs a certain direction in time and so needs a universe, would any growth from simplicity to complexity be possible without our arrow of time? Would a Big Bang exist? I think not. Could a universe with all events 'super imposed' contain 'life'? So there I present the simplest reason I can think of, we can only exist in such a universe, without that 'arrow' nothing biologically 'fractal' could evolve, and by saying 'fractal' I'm thinking of all processes that grows from something relatively simple to the most complex. So that arrow is a must for any 'growth' and should have existed before the idea of mass. And without it the question would be moot as there would be no one reflecting over it. But what is that arrow? If time would be seen as relations between objects, as well as the objects themselves, How does the 'arrow of time' come into play, isn't that a contradiction of terms? So does 'times arrow' exist? Definitely as long as invariant mass does I think, but in a universe without mass then? That takes us to the idea of a 'perfect vacuum'. Does a perfect vacuum contain mass? How about the hidden energy contained in it, how about all those virtual particles. All of them exist in any 'space' you can define. But down there time becomes very much chains of ‘cause and effect’ without any single ‘time arrow’ pointing in only one direction when expressed inside SpaceTime. A little like as if the canvas we can ‘see’ (space) only is a ‘cause and effect’ area down at its smallest Planck filled size. The question might also be what is needed to formulate/create a 'space' containing 'distances'. Would it be enough with virtual particles (Hidden energy)? Or does 'space' need invariant mass (restmass) to coagulate, well, it seems so to me? But photons then? They also have energy, but with neither size nor mass related to them. A universe of photons, Can it have an arrow of time? Not as I see it, I don’t expect them to belong even to a ‘cause and effect’ chain in themselves, even though they do it as observed from us. Does a photon vibrate? Nah, wouldn’t that violate its intrinsical timelessness and sizelessness? But if it was somewhat like a ‘hole in space’, could space vibrate around that hole? I see no reason why it couldn’t, space is filled with energy, isn’t it? Wouldn’t it want to ‘close’ it? As it would be a ‘break’ in its ‘equilibrium’?
Let me speculate some more about time and space. What would be the necessity for 'time'? Matter? Space seems to be a direct effect of matter though. As some see it time is expressed through what we call 'clocks'. There are a lot of definitions for what a 'clock' is, something that measure events, which presents a 'coherence' holding a time-like ‘direction/arrow’ for the observer. The coherence here would be our 'arrow of time' macroscopically and if broken down further our binding ‘event-chains’ in Quantum Mechanics. We know that this times arrow seems to break down at Quantum mechanical 'distances' and that 'time' there becomes something more similar to connected events but without any specific 'arrow pointing in only one ‘direction’. The main point that I would like to lift forward here is that the ‘events’ seen in QM still have a 'coherence' to them, which means that they still makes sense to us, and so, even without that defined arrow of 'time', still are able to create a 'logical' chain of cause and effect for us observing. So isn’t 'cause and effect' a better description for that than 'times arrow'?
Time with that arrow we experience is an expression belonging to our macroscopic universe, not any 'universal truth' but 'cause and effect' seems to belong to both QM and SpaceTime. If time needs to be 'measured' to exist, or expressed otherwise, if time needs a 'clock' to proof itself. What then would you see as its smallest common nominator? Matter, nah, matter is a clock but a macroscopic one, suitable only for our known arrow. Energy then? Can we use energy as a measure of time. To me, I think so, as long as we give up on the macroscopic arrow and possibly QM:s ‘double arrow’ too. Can a clock exist without a ‘arrow of time’? That’s the question. Turn it around. What gives it ‘two results’ in QM? And what makes those virtual particles create themselves out of nothing spontaneously?
Virtual particles is a very nice description of 'energy'. They 'work' both ways as they do have an observable effect at our macroscopic SpaceTime somehow mediating ‘work done’ by their existence to and following our 'arrow of time', at the same time as they as a 'cause' exist outside of any such ‘arrow/event/description' and also loses nothing themselves in the process. So seen like this we have something, 'virtual' that without expending any 'work done' in itself, as its total effect/effort/expression is null, still influences and change the outcome of observable events inside our own arrow of time (SpaceTime). Another name for describing something suddenly changing its behavior and properties is 'emergence', somewhat alike water turning into ice and so begetting new properties.
There is one thing that I want to ‘press on a little more before we move on again. When I say that I think that ‘energy’ is the smallest common nominator I don’t mean that it will have a ‘clock’ as we are used to describe them. ‘clocks’ as we see them macroscopically have the arrow of time guiding them and at a QM level ‘cause and effect’, with which I mean a ‘to us understandable chain of events’, guiding even without that ‘one single arrow’. That on the other hand don’t invalidate the concept of ‘clocks’. It just questions if a ‘clock’ or ‘chains of events’ is a most correct description. Perhaps there are a more hidden mechanism working to create both those ‘realities’ acting as a ‘counting’ too, but not in any easily recognizable way to us. Can we have a ‘beat’ not measuring? Without distances nothing ‘ticks’, yet we will get processes out of that ‘nothing’ unfolding in SpaceTime?
And that takes me back to that smallest common nominator, energy. Could 'energy' be a ‘smallest’ expression of time? If that would be true then the question whether 'time' consists of 'events' stringed together or a seamless 'flow' steering only one way disappears. And that’s a relief to me
Time might then better be described as a kind of 'field' existing and permeating all, and then 'time' in itself have no need for an 'arrow' to exist, it will be us that 'needs' it. Is it mass that creates space? And Mass is a clock, so what are the smallest ‘clocks’ we know of? Particles right? Or is it waves? Can we say that the wave in itself can be a clock? Is clocks a relation, I mean if particles would be seen as some smallest ‘clock’ can we use the ‘vibration’ from an electron as a time counter? But then the electron is not the answer is it, its what we call its ‘vibration’ that is the time measuring, and those seems even ‘smaller’ than the electron? But they need the relation to mass to materialize as a ‘clock’. This vibration? Can it be there without restmass involved? But any ‘clock’ we use seem to be a combination of a restmass and waves?
All systems seems to order themselves from the simple to the complex. That’s one rule I believe to be. Also that the 'jumps/bifurcations' a system makes won't be recognized by our measuring as the transitions taking place are outside of our macroscopic 'arrow of time'. And there is where that fractal behaviour we observe seems to fit, ah, to me that is.
The Wheeler-Feynman model, called the "absorber theory of radiation," makes electromagnetism a two-way street as far as the time dimension is concerned. They based their time-symmetric theory on the assumption that every light wave emitted by an atom must be absorbed by another atom and that these two events, light emission plus light absorption, should be considered as a single inseparable process. In it they see ‘time’ as going backward from the sink (your eye), which is cases allowed by both Dirac's equation and Maxwell's wave equation for light, as well as it goes forward in time from the source (sun). As a result any light observed will need both factors to exist (Source and sink)
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #28 on:
20/09/2009 17:41:53 »
Like Dirac's equation, Maxwell's wave equation for light has two solutions, the so-called "retarded solution" that describes a wave traveling forward in time and the "advanced solution" that describes a light wave traveling backward in time. Both of these waves travel at the same speed-the speed of light in vacuum-- but in opposite temporal directions. The retarded wave travels in the normal direction -- from past to future -- while the advanced wave goes the other way -- from the future into the past...
--- And how Radiation occurs according to The Wheeler-Feynman model.
First atom A emits, without recoiling (no self-interaction), a half-sized (retarded) wave that travels forward in time at a speed of 186,000 mps to the absorber atom B. Atom B recoils as it takes up this light's momentum. Then, stimulated by its recoil motion, atom B emits a half-sized (advanced) wave that travels backward in time at a speed of 186,000 mps to atom A. Atom A recoils as it takes up this advanced wave's momentum.
The timing of the emission and absorption events guarantees that at any moment the half-sized advanced wave sent back in time from the absorber always finds itself at the same position in space as the half-sized retarded wave sent forward in time from the emitter. Thus the two waves fuse together to form a single full-sized wave which appears to have been sent from the emitter and received by the absorber.
Because of this exact superposition of advanced and retarded waves, the Wheeler-Feynman model produces the same apparent wave motion as conventional radiation theory. The two theories give the same result but propose radically different models of what is actually happening. Conventional radiation theory is a simple matter of cause and effect. Wheeler-Feynman theory involves a handshaking procedure much like data exchanged between two computers in which a data transfer initiated by one computer is not completed until the exchange has been acknowledged by a message sent back from the second computer.
...in order for light to be emitted it must be connected to some future absorber by a two-way retarded-advanced wave handshake process. Because of the need for the presence of absorbers, the absorber theory predicts that if there are none in a particular direction in space, then light will refuse to shine in that particular direction!
That we haven’t ever observed any ‘advanced waves’ seems easily explained by the fact that both sink and source, according to this theory, need to be ‘present’ for any light to occur. That idea seems similar to mine though I suggest time to be ‘all’ there is and so not restricted in any spatial or ‘time (size) induced’ direction. As I see it that ‘source’ and your ‘sink’ and what happens between them is just another expression of time relations, with no distance involved in fact. ( And as we all know, there needs at least two ‘something’ for any relation to work
The main thing here is not the universe itself but the ‘beholding’ of it. Without anything ‘observing’ there will be no interactions. We need to work from the idea of ‘observing’ in itself to make sense of SpaceTime. To do that we need to decide what makes an ‘observer’ There seems to be a difference between ‘virtual particles/energy’ and what we deem ‘ordinary light/energy’ but if we question ‘times arrow’ I believe we will find them to be the same. And the difference between them being that ‘arrow of time’ taking us from ‘A’ to ‘B’ macroscopically. Which takes us to the strange effect of ‘distance’ or ‘dimensions’. Both have one ting in common, they need ‘size’ to exist. When the size is to small the arrow becomes indeterminable although existing (QM). When we go further down to what creates virtual particles we pass the Planck length and there ‘size’ as well as any ‘arrows’ indeterminate or not, cease to exist. There I believe you will find the dimension less ‘field’ that allows ‘size/distance’ to exist.
But even if you accept this we still need to understand Consciousness, ‘Observers ‘and Size. (Distance)
If I suggested that what governs SpaceTime to be a combination of the ‘distances’, of the observation and time itself I still haven’t touched what it is questioning it. And that would be very stupid of me as without the ‘observer’ nothing can exist. There will be no experiment made, ever, that can have a defined outcome if no one is there to ‘observe’ it, no matter how you see it. Consciousness seems to be a prerequisite for anything to happen too. You might laugh at that and insist that things work even as we sleep, or are in a coma, and the planets will move, but it’s still a truth. Without a beholder there will be nothing to behold. It seems though that what we do with SpaceTime that differs it from all other non thinking/living ‘detectors/observers’ is that we actively manipulate it. Furthermore, according to my view ‘intelligence/consciousness ’ is required to exist at some state, all other things just being the ground laid out for it as the ‘simple’ unfolds into the ‘complex’. But the objection is still valid, the question then becomes to define what a ‘observer’ can be. Should we split consciousness from ‘Observers’? To me that seems reasonable. That as if the SpaceTime created from our ‘arrow of time’ is a matter of ‘size’ then all things over a certain size (Planck size? ) will be ‘observers’ and ‘sources and sinks’ simultaneously, perhaps communicating through those ‘virtual particles/photons’. So where should we place Consciousness as we know it then? As a matter of ‘size’ too perhaps? Or maybe the word should be ‘complexity’ or ‘Emergence’. As water becomes ice (Emergence) and change its properties so also we may be the direct result of ‘time acting upon itself. .
Here under you will find my approach to the question of ‘right living’, ‘reality’ and climate. As for if I’m right or not I can’t be sure, even though when it comes to the question of climate I’m afraid I just might be, as for my ‘philosophy’? Well, I prefer it before the so called ‘behaviouristic approach’ to life, in where you by painting your factory’s walls in some new color will beget a better ‘working effort’ short time. In a behaviouristic ‘approach to reality’ we are all ‘Pavlov’s dogs’, salivating as that bell rings, and the only thing to hope for in such a society is that you are ‘led’ by hopefully enlightened ‘leaders. That ideology of out-view also include those ‘leading’ naturally, even though they may manipulate you through its dogmas. (Sometimes those folk’s seems to miss that?
. To me that idea more seems to signify all self-expressed ‘Elite’s’ need to simplify those ‘under’ them as being somehow less, so to place themselves ‘above’, if you get my drift. Another statement of ‘humanity’ to me. Not that it won’t work though, we humans contain a multitude, all to often contradictorily in nature, and, when all is said and done, it’s you (and me) accepting this behaviouristic approach that makes it so.
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #29 on:
20/09/2009 17:43:50 »
-------- And now some late coming words from my moral sponsor, the Conscience. ---------
We may be intelligent but we’re not ‘wise’. If we would, would we then have all those small arms wars, 'global warming' and plastic wastes, presumably the size of one to two Texas, gathered by streams and winds into a heap drifting in the oceans, dissolving into molecules, poisoning the marine life and thereby us? Anybody noticed that impact on, ah, Saturn? Jupiter was it? Any which way, making a hole the size of an Earth on whatever planet it was, and in our own ‘backyard’ too. Seems to me like someone gave us a warning shoot right over our bow there. Better thy ways human, or else. I saw that there was a new book on the market putting the ‘Gaia idea’ against a new one called ‘the Medea.’ The idea there seems to be that ‘Gaia’ should be seen as nurturing and healing, that she always will do her best for us, no matter our moral and ethical incompetence. ‘Medea’ on the other hand is the princess of Colchis who insanely killed her own offspring. And as the author seems to state, a better representation for what we are. Well, I don’t know. My idea of ‘Gaia’ is more neutral, she do her best to create a living sphere for all life, but once there, they’re on their own. Quite simple, but I can see how he got ‘Medea’ .
Take a look yourself and see what you find. It’s quite healthy to do so now and then. Behind our ‘social surfaces’ the predator still lurks and he trusts no one, and its his! Everything is, by conquest or social manipulation, and he is the best ‘liar’ there is, as he’s lying to himself, yeah that’s you! Supporting your ‘righteousness’ and pushing your egos ‘beliefs’ as truths. Seen that way we do smell a little.
But that’s how we is. Bio-mass, fighting our way up. And perhaps, that’s the way we’re going to expire too? Bio-mass, cells dividing until they take up the whole substrate and then die. Myself, I’ve never enjoyed those ‘social ‘surfaces’’ we present for ourselves and others. And as I see it we have a obligation towards the rest of the life on this planet, mostly because we’re the ones killing it. So either you grow, and that’s up to you, no one else. Or you stay an little predator, proud over your tiny conquests in life, pompous over your skills in social engineering and manipulation, trusting that promises is deeds and to take action is to say and vote the ‘right thing’. And before all, I’m not fond of ‘politics’. That’s one of the saddest statements of humanity, that we can’t manage our life’s without them, We need ‘surfaces’ hiding all intents, even to ourselves. That’s what your politician stands to service you with, the excuses and half-truths the ‘social surfaces’ craves, to let us glide against each other as friction less as possible, just like those economists and fortunetellers, protecting our ego’s right to greed and consume. Don’t tell me I’m making it up. Take a look around on child-soldiering, prostitution, slavery, mass-rapes, ethnical cleansing, ‘Kyoto treaties’, the way industries can run over any rights, any war you ‘like’, and any ‘peace’ you remember. By now I think, we all need to grow up… Fast.
I’m hoping you can.
Ghoulish? Yep, that‘s me
If anyone want to drag the ideas of politics or 'ideals' into it we are on very unstable ground. The only thing I would like to put to notice there is that we seem to have two choices. One is expecting morality, ethics and all other 'ideas' of humanity to be just another expression of 'cause and effect' without any 'right or wrong' prevalent to it, more than the biological survival of the 'strongest prevalent' amount/group(s) of bio-mass acting. If you see it so concentration camps becomes just another statement of 'humanity' not involving any concepts of 'right and wrong'.. On the other hand, If you followed my reasoning before, there might be a 'hidden truth' to life where the concept of 'ethics' and 'right and wrong' do exist as something inherently true at a more complex plane. As the universe seems to come from ‘simplicity’ to an ever-growing complexity with us as its ‘loftiest peak’ intelligence-wise. And what does that definition make of you behaviorists supporting only the ‘bio-mass’ concept? I would like to see myself and you as an expression of that later definition but I can't be sure, and neither can you. Still, the world becomes what you make of it, doesn't it. You, as our diversified 'books of wisdom' like to express it, have choices to make, all of them circling around what you deem as your 'free will'. Seen so it may not matter which of those concepts you believe true, as long as you make your choices 'wisely'. Although I will freely admit to finding it rather a bore if life was proofed to be just another concept of 'bio-mass reproducing'. I’m not sure where dreams end and life starts but without them life becomes boring indeed. So, seen this way, that may be what 'living' is all about? Creating that 'moral ground' from where we can uplift our newfangled concepts of Ethics, 'Right and Wrong' into SpaceTime as 'realities' guiding our growth. Who knows, I certainly don’t. Looking at it that way I wonder though.
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #30 on:
20/09/2009 17:44:45 »
As far as I understand there have been an ever rising spiral of civilian non-combatant’s dying, in all wars since the second world war, including Americas. But you will have difficulties confirming this, as no war waging nation would like to admit to it. It’s very bad ‘publicity’ indeed in this day and time. Remember Genghis Kahn? I believe he would have found it counterproductive to hide any deaths, he liked to leave pyramids of skulls from his enemies heads , not bothering to sort them into ‘farmers’ artisans’ ‘warriors’, just to remind his foes about the realities of warring with him.. To day we want it both ways, don’t we. Ruthlessly ‘scare the sh1t’ out of our opponent, but hide the true numbers of civilians killed, so not to seem ‘uncivilized’. But you can only die one time, as long as you’re not taken prisoner of course, under which conditions you find yourself totally defenseless. And that I see as a truth to any army, barbaric or civilized. So if I may, ‘killing by proxy’ involving no men (long distance weaponry, guided missiles etc.) is no guarantee of victory, as long as your foe is ready to die physically for his point of view. To him your new ideas of ‘unmanned wars’ might just be a proof of a cowardliness and yes, unmanliness, waiting to be manipulated, as you then seem to miss that ‘moral commitment’ they see as ‘inherent’ in their own cause. That modern warfare may hide or move the civilian deaths under, or to, other ‘attributes/labels’ is no proof otherwise either. Then again, if you’re ruthless enough, a nuke or two is a simple way to try to solve any ‘discussion’ or war. And that’s the real threat held behind the back, ain’t it. But it opens ‘Pandora’s box’ and in there we find all sorts of biological, chemical as well as nuclear weapons waiting. We don’t really need any Hell in any hereafter, we seem to do just as good without it.
What we offer each other today is not only death, but total oblivion of any human society, be it ever so primitive. So to my reckoning there is nothing especially fantastic about our lives today that differs them from more primitive times. Cruelty, ignorance and avarice is still there, just hidden under its new glove of ‘civilization’. But to lift forward any older ‘civilization’ as being a ‘nobler thing’ seems even more incompetent to me. In medieval times the idea of European fun might be to throw a cat into the fire to watch it burn alive, In ancient Rome the slaughters of slaves called gladiators, thousands of them with the ‘games’ going on continuously for a hundred days leaving new corpses every day, littered all over the arena. As well as constant wars of course. We as a species is to be pitied more than glorified to me, and the way we treat life is under all critique. We’ve been acting as predatory animals until we almost have extinguished all life there is, except those we have a use for, our shoes, clothes and food, although recently we seem to be trying for them too? No, I’m not meaning that you need to become a vegetarian to change, we’re meat-eaters too. And if vegetarianism was the ‘meaning of life’ why would there be lions, and mosquitoes?
Humankind’s inherent aggressiveness and greed was ‘acceptable’ as long as the world could accommodate it by sheer size and possibility of exploitation, but lately we seem to have run out of room. Ideas I’ve seen on the net lifting forward the Arctic’s loss of its ice-sheet and its consequent ruining of krill, plankton, its marine-life, polar-bears etc as a new opportunity for ‘progress’ must be one of the dumbest things I’ve read. As well as it is killing off the first order of life we ‘stand on’. Ever wondered what krill and plankton are good for? " Krill numbers may have dropped by as much as 80% since the 1970's - so today's stocks are a mere 1/5th of what they were only 30 years ago " Ever heard about the concept of ‘food-chains’? Goggle and be educated. At times I’m stupefied that we made it this far, but then again, that world was ‘bigger’ to us, and we didn’t have this new kind of biological and nuclear ‘mass destruction’ in our hands either.
With global warming fast becoming a reality all nations will have to prove their ‘moral mettle’ soon enough, as the number of ‘uninhabitable’ areas grows , especially in countries already renown for their poverty. We already see the European Community closing their door to such refugees fleeing from Africa. And America is strengthening their borders. But I promise you that it will become worse, as well as more degrading, for all sides . And I consider most wars to be fought over ‘resources’. ‘Ethnic cleansing’ or the ‘Evilness’ of the opponent becoming the ‘label of choice’ at times, but I still say that most wars will be started over resources, not ideas, even though religion have played a major role in most. The type of warring we see between Islamic and Christian interests is nowadays so hopelessly intermixed politically as well as geographically that as for trying to give them a ‘unity label’ becomes quite difficult. But when wars becomes to numerous to keep straight in your head religious labels still work. So then all of the Islamic interests can talk about the Jihad, not caring for if they fight Russians or Americans.
But the opposite definition is still not true for us, when we look at Caucasus and Chechenia for example we see it as a specific Russian problem, of their own creation too. And when we look at Iraq we see a ‘American first/Western then’ problem, and for who’s to ‘blame’ there? (He was one ugly customer that Saddam Hussein, he nerve-gassed a whole village just because they were Kurd’s, didn’t he?) But it’s still a powderkeg waiting to ‘blow’ over there, years after the ‘real’ war is supposed to have ended. Why? For me it’s a question of resources. Oil, land, mineral, why else would we be there, although it seems as we are giving up somewhat, the logistics of ‘keeping Iraq western minded’ is just to difficult, as well as expensive.. Islamic ‘Jihad warriors’ though I expect to see it differently, as a overall ‘Christian/Western’ oppressive religious problem, even though they’re very well aware of the importance of land and resources (Agrarian societies). But by labeling it ‘religious’ it becomes the same everywhere with ‘them against us’ with their ‘true religion’ as the banner, and them being the ‘liberators’ naturally. But perhaps some Countries are ‘planning ahead’ in certain ways. ‘Realpolitik’. “USA Russia and Nato should consider joining their ‘rocket shield’ defenses immediately, considering ‘mutual problems’” said the Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmusen recently. Against what? Aliens? The Jihadic movements? China? And so comes ‘unequal democracies’ once more together. Anybody remembering the upstart to WW2? Or are we all weaned of history books those days? If we take away the layer of politics and religion most of the problems will be one of resources, and human rights. And we all know how Russia looks at ‘human rights’ today, don’t we?
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #31 on:
20/09/2009 17:45:56 »
As for the ‘Jihadic’ movement? I doubt they even believe there to be any such notion as ‘human rights’. All ‘agrarian’ societies have, through history, primarily been involved in the principles of ‘owning’, from land to people, and that western newfangled notion of some ‘objective’ right for all, based on everyones equal worth as human beings? What? “Typical westerners”.. Then again. Looking at it, do we really trust in those ideas ourselves? We put those ideals aside so easily when playing our ‘real politics’’. So I guess we won’t ‘gear down’ to adapt to the Climates demands then? Instead ‘gear up’ for a war perhaps? Hoping that this will magically ‘solve’ CO2, Methane, overpopulation, and a untold number of other problems destroying our living-sphere? And in a war no one will have time to see any pollution’s effects, right. And industries can ‘walk’ wherever they please without problems, exploiting oceanic gas-fields, the Arctic, everywhere in perpetuity while ‘doing their best’ for our ‘war-effort’. And after it? If we survive I mean. Rebuilding? Well, we had to defend our ‘ideals’, didn’t we? And what problems we face then will seem smaller than that ‘war’ was, won’t they? And what the industries already done will then just be another shortsighted ‘fact’, won’t it? Even if those ‘facts’ lead us to..? But won’t a war open ‘Pandora’s Box’? Well, that’s the chance we took if so, right? So this is were our notions of ‘owning’, greed, politics and religion will lead us. And hey, forget about any ‘human rights’ when it start. Those notions are like industries poorly geographically placed. In case of a economic decline the very first to go up in smoke. Now you might get the idea here that I’m some kind of flower-whipping hippie praying for peace? No, not that I mind hippies though. To me fighting is acceptable, as when you’re attacked by that bully, or for a nation when attacked by an aggressor. That’s only self-defense and quite proper too. As long as we act as we do, that is, we all need a defense. But to act the aggressor, and to plan like a bully or aggressor hiding that long stick behind your back, that’s gotta end, this planet is just to small. We will need other solutions for our ‘visions of power’. Define better ideas of what makes a man a man than his ability to kill off all living. If you talk with truly tough guys, as we all have been known to do on occasions, what strikes me is not their ability to inflict harm. To be a really ‘tough guy’ it’s not enough to stop caring for the consequences, that’s in fact something most of us can learn, depending on circumstances. The real trick is when you realize how hard it will become for you to live honorably, once you learnt where your uncompromising nature takes you, and how you solve it. So you might think you’re a ‘hardass’ but until you’ve been where I’m talking about, you still got some way to go. And there is in fact a ‘way of the warrior’ but it is more spiritual than physical, it’s more about commitment to a goal or dream than to beat the living daylight out of all you meet. So, maybe war is in our ‘genes’? I say we still need to find a better outlet than what we have today.
So ‘labels’ unify where logic can’t?
It’s only Human, isn’t it? How about your own television, a known pacifier as well as a ‘unifier’.. And before that, your radio.. Or your work (and mates)? Doesn’t that ‘unify’ too? And why does advertising work so well? And in a slightly more ‘primitive’ agrarian surrounding, what’s better than ‘religion’? We use it too, look at Bosnia and Serbia for a recent example? So what, really? What, do you think will happen if Earth’s resources shrinks drastically? “- But isn’t that what we have our politicians for?” You might ask yourself slightly cynical, “To take those really bad tasting decisions away, and hide them amongst all other decisions I don’t want to be ‘bothered’ with.” “ I mean, we are a Democracy, okay, a representative Democracy but still a ‘Democracy’, let the ‘chosen ones’ take care of that..” Like here in Sweden me reading how the police now seems allowed to ‘DNA brand’ shoplifters, you know taking saliva test of them to be able to track them if they later on do other crimes. It’s true, any crime able to, in a ‘worst case scenario’, lead to a prison sentence seems to give the Swedish state that ‘right’ now? So lets get those kids, as we all know shop lifting is a true ‘gate’ opening to all other criminality, just like stealing those apples from your neighbor’s backyard was in earlier days. Only joking. To me it seems to give all Swedish police work a big fat ‘incompetence stamp’ as they apparently need this kind of ‘branding’ to find out ‘who did what’. “Yep, we just need to wait until the crime is done. Then my friend, then, we’ll ‘track those bastards down.”. Kind’a make me feel all warm and fuzzy, protected like. . But then again. My kind of mentality and protests seems all comes down to “if you’re protesting then, you gotta be ‘one of them’ “. Which is a good even if somewhat roundabout argument used under a lot of circumstances, having had both Stalin and Hitler as ‘avid supporter’s’.
Think about a society populated by people marked out from birth by those kind of ‘standards’, then ask yourself if you can find a surer, more subtle way of conserving any states power/ideology. And hiding this kind of ‘DNA-management’ under a stamp of ‘democracy’ is a very clever way of eating the cookie as you keeps it, ah, where it ‘belongs’. But every nation gets the ‘management’ they prefer, don’t they. I mean, how many years have India’s ‘caste mentality’ survived? Shouldn’t they love it? Well, those ‘on top’ might, but the others? Goggle and be educated. And then you can ask yourself what you think would have happened to any form of ‘resistance’ if this type of tracking techniques were found under a war, combined with a ‘national citizens data register’ naturally. . My guess is that any resistance mounted would need to see the war push pass most moral limits, perhaps with resistance becoming as strong a urge as for those inside that WW2 ghetto of Warsaw, having no choice left but ‘revolt /and/ die’. The psychological inertia built into the realization of you and your kin’s vulnerability is a monumental steppingstone, knowing that you would be traced by rudimental scrapes of skin, blood or a dropped piece of hair left. Of course it would work best in modern societies where we already have it all ‘organized’. Like Sweden? So what do this kind of systems do to your right of free speech you think? Like free thinking, speech, and all your ‘democratic rights’ in peacetime? Nothing, you say? ..If you just behave, right? Like they just are there for ‘show’, just another brand-label maybe? “ Be the first to be really free, now with seventy percent more ‘spruce’ to it.” Do you know how many that died, believing and fighting for those kind of rights to exist? But you’re borne to it, so you don’t need to know, right. It’s easier remembering the one that hurt you than the one that did you a good turn. Only normal, but says a lot about human nature. When someone cares for you, you take it for granted “because you deserve it” right, but if they do you harm? Let them beware.. If you ask me you would be better off with those that do you good instead, and learn from that. But that would make you think independently and actively, wouldn’t it? For evil to succeed it’s perfectly sufficient with you turning your head away, easy and safely passive.
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #32 on:
20/09/2009 17:46:38 »
And that’s where I usually give up. If you’re of that, ah, bovine, temperament maybe it’s your birthright after all? But then, on the fifty first testicle, didn’t we outlaw slavery? On the other tentacle, is sheer stupidity really entitled to liberty? Well yes, it seems to, doesn’t it? Ever read “The Master and Margarita” by Mikhail Bulgakov ? It’s a cool book, when I read it that first time I had no idea that it was supposed to be ‘controversial’ but, even so, there seems to be a ‘hidden’ message in it. When it first came out in Russia, by the monthly magazine ‘Moskva’ 1966 its 150,000 copies sold out within hours. Not because it was a fantastic tale in itself, still rated among the best I’ve read. Just because nobody believed that anyone would be allowed to write anything like that in Russia. Yeah, Bulgakow was dead by then, he had spent the years from 1928 to his death 1940 writing and rewriting it, even burning it once as he was so scared by what Stalin might do. It’s a story about magic, freedom, social ‘surfaces’ and the state. To me as a western reader it presents me with a cool and lovely tale, extremely easy to read although not ‘revolutionary’ in any sense, just extremely imaginative. But to that Russian buying the ‘Moskva’, twenty-six years after his death it still was ‘Revolutionary’. I warmly recommend it to anyone capable to read more than the newspaper. Read it and try to understand why it was revolutionary. Then ask yourself if you would like to live in a society where a book like that would be ‘burned’.
Not only the Swedish police are ‘incompetence declaring’ themselves by the way? There seems to be a lot of ‘democratic’ police forces hailing this technique as being the ‘new way of future police work’, not all of them finding the need to ‘brand’ shop lifters as ‘hardened criminals’ though. For a unsavory comparison, the Nazis ‘branded’ those enforced to prostitution with a big ‘H’ in the forehead, in their camps. Now it seems we have a more sophisticated method for getting the exact same result, ‘branded individuals’. And this time a skin transplant won’t clear it for you. That said I can agree to this kind of DNA-technique being useable for those we find to commit the worst kinds of crimes, like serial killing, grave assault/ rapes/ murders and robbery’s, and those really ugly crimes involving children. That meaning those unable to trust in whichever society they exist in, but then it should be done after the fact, not before, searching those evidence at the crime-scene. And using that DNA to test against those suspected. And not ‘keeping’ the irrelevant DNA begotten under such procedures. The police have to use their brains like the rest of us, and, as I expect, do have them when allowed to create the right kind of competence and structure. In Sweden we’ve had our individual ‘birth numbers’ following us a long time. And to good results too, when used as statistics. Our population statistics is a treasure for all wanting to se how substances, food, pollution etc influence health and/or age over large populations. But there is an abyss greater than Hell between those ‘birth-numbers’ and this new ‘genetic branding’ of individuals. We’ve had a slightly moronic right wing coalition for some time now. You know, the kind with - Deep -Leader -Visions-Of –Honor-and-Prosperity - And –No- Ugly Income Tax-. (Although not that good at defining for whom those tax-reductions really are meant). Not that our opposite number, ‘The Socialdemocrats’, have had that much clearer vision lately. But the real reason for such laws to pass must lie deeper than that I think. A moral Inertia perhaps? People believing that freedom is a thing of the genes, or, of the past? “-You know, with the right genes everything is possible.” says the optimist, “Premature dementia too?” asks he…
(Drugs in the water system you say? Hmmm, ah, no. . . well, thinking of it again? . – you’re sure? )
There are still some statements that seems truer than others. Like ‘The only thing needed for evil to reign is for a good man to look away’ and that other. ‘Any society ready to give up a little liberty to earn some security will deserve neither, and loose both.’ Isn’t that what we all are doing today? Exchanging those rights for ‘security’? We are the only one paying more than lip-service to those ideals, well, at least we used too. “Not only is life a bitch, now she’s dropping puppies too.” Kind of to the point I think. And please, don’t see this last as a sexist remark. It would sound downright silly if I changed ‘bitch’ to ‘male dog’ and ‘she’ to ‘he’. I’m afraid it would lose all kind of, ah, ‘moral coherence?
If you don’t agree, consider the McCarthy era in the fifties. How many was it that refused to name others as ‘communist sympathizers’ there? One? Ten? A hundred? The question you might ask yourself is under what circumstances you will want to stand by your choices, or non-choices, to yourself and to your kids and kin. Do you really want to be in that position? Explaining how you found it best to do nothing? And if you find this ‘self questioning’ a moot idea then I will feel free to suspect that you’ve joined what Stalin used to see as ‘useable dupes’. Similar to those believing that ‘communism’ and ‘Stalinism’, or for that case the whole era of Soviet rule, stood for the exact same ‘ideals’. Or that only ‘pure capitalism and the free market’ can lead to a ‘free society’? ‘Democracy’ on the other hand I find a good start, but as we can see by that DNA-example, no real guarantee of anything. It all comes down your complacency with yourself, your ‘social stature’ and what you define as ‘freedom’? Your ‘Freedom of greed’ or ‘Freedom of speech’? ‘Freedom of greed’ may be a subset of ‘Freedom of Speech’, but I doubt that the opposite is true. To that you can add those ‘weapons’ drifting through countries and hands I never wanted or expected to see them in. Heard about that Russian boat bordered in Swedish waters by masked men, presenting themselves as ‘police’? Wonder why and what that was about? Nuclear, biological, chemical? What made it that important to stop? Or was it a hijack? Only rockets. . right?
And my discussion won’t consider what psychological and moral lasting effects this kind of ‘reclusive strategy’ relative third world countries will have on us residing on the ‘sunny side’, ah, not that good choice, ‘industrial side’ then? Also, to put the shoe on the right foot, it was after all us ‘rich’ countries that is the major ‘delinquents’ creating the pollution we see today, not that we knew before. Today former ‘third world’ countries like China, India, Asia, Africa, South America,, Muslim countries etc, are doing their very best (read worst) to come up to, or even surpass our pollution levels. Like told last year, in China building a coal-driven power plant every nine days. Can you hear a clock ticking somewhere? And South Africa? 95 % coal powered, and India. You think those countries will accept to dismantle their energy production so not to dirty the environment more than we already did? Well, I guess the devil have massive laughing fits reading that..
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #33 on:
20/09/2009 17:49:06 »
I’m also tired of those hugely ‘brained’ economic thinkers, so incredibly far from reality. Our firmest sages, and high priests of the ‘economy’. I think we’re just like the climate, unpredictable, ever heard that butterfly’s wings flap? You did recently when your ‘economy’ took a dive. And believing that you can ‘scheme’ against nature, pipes to the seas and pipes in to the land and factories, taking up CO2, burying it down deep in earth ‘sinks’? A little like we dream to do with our radioactive wastes, but now at your every corner. ‘Idiot proof’ you say? Idiotic I say. A whole Earth of burying? To much Jules Verne as a youngster perhaps? And what billions of billions this will cost I don’t know, I saw a number nearing ten million million dollars as a estimate on what it had cost just to buffer the economy this time (BBC) at our recent recession, most of it from us taxpayers (State) guaranteeing the institutions continuos ‘profit’. And recent economic ‘statements’ I’ve seen seem to compare the economy to some disease, ‘stable for now’? I could write a book on how banks ‘secure’ themselves using each other to present you new ‘securities’ blindfolding the public, but I guess most of you know it already. It’s just another example of ‘faith’ and the ‘the Emperors new clothes’ (H. C. Andersen). But I know that you are looking at it all the wrong way here. It’s not about money anymore, it’s a ‘turnabout’ for all countries. And some industries will die, and good riddance to them says I, and new ones will come. It’s a whole world of change for the better.
Want another example of how your ‘economy’ will be saved today? Ever heard about Australia? Yeah, down under mate. Well they’ve just had their warmest winter ever, not even one mm of rain for the first eight months this year 2009. Outside Australia (ocean) there are natural Gas deposits waiting for the picking. To transport this gas you either need pipelines or you will need to freeze it to around -161 C. The project ‘Gorgon’, sat in motion by Chevron, plans do to do just that with Exxon and Shell jumping on the train. So now you have super tankers on the seas with ‘super-cooled, super-concentrated natural gas’ (That’s what happens when it gets frozen. The density of a gas goes really up, way way up when it becomes a liquid..) . It is a disaster scenario waiting to happen. The leaks only need to be miniscule for the gas to start leak. But if we do it at sea, no one will notice, and Australians don’t care, right mate? That gas won’t hurt you? If anything happens it will go straight up, won’t it, warmed by the air, disappearing like? Remember those oilfields burning? Congratulations. As well as that probably is the better scenario than allowing the methane getting loose without it burning itself into CO2. Now, if you had a grain of common sense left in what’s commonly called our most important muscle, ah, above the navel that is. You might ask yourself. Why don’t they take it from North Carolina?
“All the energy America needs for the next 100 years lies under the sea off the coast of South Carolina.”
Just one problem: Digging it out might cause a global climate disaster.”
Methane is the principal component of natural gas, and massive amounts of it are trapped in reservoirs beneath the sea floor and under a layer of the ice-like substance. The scale of the resource is spectacular. By some estimates, methane hydrates contain more energy content than all other known fossil fuels combined.
Two small areas located roughly 200 miles off the coast of Charleston, S.C., contain enough methane to meet the country's gas needs for more than a century. And this is only one of at least two dozen similar reservoirs discovered in U.S. coastal waters since the early 1970s.
The paradox is that while gas can be extracted from methane hydrates, doing so poses potentially catastrophic risks. Methane hydrates are frozen water molecules that trap methane gas molecules in a crystalline, lattice-like structure known as a hydrate. Unlike normal ice, hydrate ice literally burns — light a match and it goes up in flames. As temperatures rise or pressure rates fall, the hydrate disintegrates and the water releases the gas. A substantial amount of evidence suggests that weakening the lattice-like structure of gas hydrates has triggered underwater landslides on the continental margin. In other words, the extraction process, if done improperly, could cause sudden disruptions on the ocean floor, reducing ocean pressure rates and releasing methane gas from hydrates.
A mass release of methane into the sea and atmosphere could have catastrophic consequences on the pace of climate change. More than 50 million years ago, undersea landslides resulted in the release of methane gas from methane hydrate, which contributed to global warming that lasted tens of thousands of years. "Methane hydrate was a key cause of the global warming that led to one of the largest extinctions in the earth's history," Ryo Matsumoto, a professor at the University of Tokyo who has spent 20 years researching the subject, told Bloomberg in December.
---End of quote---
So why don’t Chevron pooh it in its own ‘backyard’? As well as Exxon and Shell. To ‘difficult’? Or not so ‘popular’ perhaps? It’s easier in the oceans outside Australia, is it? More ‘private’ like? We already found methane running wild in the Arctic, and frankly, it scares the sh1t out of me. But let’s assume we’ll keep walking this path.. Short Time Survival.. As your kids grow old, and then their kids possibly too. (around one hundred years.. Btw: You Aussies are hoping for that sweet Sheila and some noisy kids too, right, well most of us do
By then the writing on the wall will become all too clear, and your time all too late. Australia will then be one of the numerous places people migrates from to survive. So, to me there are no ‘compromises’ available. The estimates of sold cars for 2009 seems to be around fifty million new cars. And the amount of new CO2 we will get then? Don’t know, neither do I know how many of the old cars that went to the dump? twenty percent perhaps? Seven? Less? A lot of them that should have gone there here in Europe seems to have been sold by unscrupulous car dealers to East-Europe, and other places. So if I seem to hear that voice… “Earth-mother tired, wants you to repent… NOW!” would that be understandable? Yep, I’m rather, ah, frustrated? There has never before been anything done by humans that have changed the whole ecosystem in such a short time (Around some 200-250 years), except our pollution. And at that, all that could happily joined forces in spewing it out, and still do. So now we expect us to reverse the same in? What, fifty? A hundred years,? By more worthless ‘Kyoto treaties’ or? At the same time keeping all our industries viable and our consuming, that meaning.. Economy, the same, or bigger? Hoping that we are in time? Like building CO2-leading pipelines everywhere?.. Hey, now I know where they got that idea from, them absolute geniuses, oh yes
Watching that ‘screen saver’ on their computer of course, you know the one with pipelines getting drawn all the time. And all of those loudmouths guaranteeing you, the consumer, ‘Your God-Given Right To Consume’.. Come on. If you find my views strange, what do you then find those dreamers to be? Aliens?
“WE Have Come To Save You” Ah, that explains it..
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #34 on:
20/09/2009 17:50:26 »
" China’s problem has become the world’s problem. Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides spewed by China’s coal-fired power plants fall as acid rain on Seoul, South Korea, and Tokyo. Much of the particulate pollution over Los Angeles originates in China, according to the Journal of Geophysical Research. " And according to Greenpeace "China's reliance on cheap coal to fuel its economy cost a hidden $248 billion last year (2007) through damage to the environment, strain on the health care system and manipulation of the commodity's price." And please understand that this study doesn't concern itself with the hidden costs pertaining the environmental impacts (climate changes) here. And it doesn’t help my mood much reading what those mighty brains of economical thinkers see. China ‘helping’ the world economy to stabilize. Although, we didn’t ‘plan’ this global warming, we just did what we thought we had to do to create better ‘living standards’, right? Well, greed and guns might have helped show us the fastest ‘ways’ but it did ‘uplift’ our standard of living . And so acts China today. In fact they seem to be walking in our exact footsteps, don’t they. And we like to tell China as well as India that this is a ‘bad bad’ thing, don’t we
But do they thank us I ask? Do they? Those rapscallious, ah, rascals?
They too feel the pressure and expectations mounting from their teeming masses I guess, everyone want that fridge, and that car, and that new telly, and mobile, and.. Their ‘leaders’ don’t really have a choice I think, especially in China with its closed hierarchic society and wide spread corruption, its either that or more and more civil insurrections to come. I have more hope for India there in fact, at least they have a democracy working for them. But we ‘smart western people’ make real sure to lock up all energy saving technology in strong patents don’t we, cheap efficient technology and biological, genetic ‘innovations’. Doing gene research but not even caring for stopping malaria as there is no ‘real market’ for it. Instead we look for the genes for overweight, don’t we. As being the real ‘threat to society’
And in America they can ‘patent’ your genes too, so stop thinking they are yours just because you’re born with them, better cough up that ‘rental money’ or . . “We’ll have your lungs, boy.” I mean, how else can we ever come out ‘on top’? Giving them patents away, what a preposterous thought. “You want to lead us to ruin?” “Nay, from the edge.” Said he.
In all scenarios made people will starve as the warming gets worse and the ‘deserts’ picks up their pace. Lands will stop producing, and when enough people starve and starts to migrate then that ‘former similarity of outlook’ shared with us might go unheeded by those surviving. Imagine ‘Palestinian’ refugee camps inhabited by the tens of millions instead. I’m thinking that those folks might not remember us too fondly. Instead I fear that they might, just might, blame it as originating from.. You know, like wanting to.. Get even? Especially as we already have started to close them out from our lands, Countries, life’s, trade treaty’s etc, ‘protecting’ ourselves and our trades, in the process creating an even worse situation for them . Ever read the old testament? It’s in the first half of the Christian bible and I tend to think that it describes that primeval human ‘motivation’ quite well. How did it go? ‘An eye for an eye’. I understand why we don’t want to face this problem though. It’s both impersonal, meaning difficult to relate to and just too friggin’ big. It’s the whole planet that’s gone haywire if you think the same as me. And the way some papers suggest you to give ‘new years eves’ promises’ of starting to ‘sort garbage’ to limit global warming? Ah, those, excuse my wording here folks, jackasses makes it even worse to realize the seriousness of our situation as it now seems to come out to planning your wardrobe better with natural fibers, buy a newer car, recycle more, etc, etc. And then everything will become well. . Sure, and Santa is waiting at the North-pole.. Having a vodka on the rocks with his reindeers. No, he can’t be, can he?. . I mean, the ice, won’t it be gone? .
“Hell, can’t he take it straight then, like a real man?”
Soon we’ll know for sure.
Is Santa is Finnish or not?
Will he ‘straighten it out’, or will he migrate south?
Will he then introduce polar bears there? Or only reindeers?
And what are the legal limits for vodka drinking when driving reindeer carriages, air-wise?
For Santa & Rudolph? (the red nosed reindeer, a seriously bad sign that nose.)
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #35 on:
20/09/2009 17:51:19 »
Some scattered proofs for global warming ‘really’ taking place.
1. According to 3,146 scientists in a recent U.S. survey a "vast majority of the Earth scientists surveyed agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures."
2. According to a study "by the U.S. Geological Survey and involving the University of Colorado at Boulder and Oregon State University as well as other research institutes indicates tree deaths in the West's old-growth forests have more than doubled in recent decades, likely from regional warming and related drought conditions. And according to another study the “forests in the pacific northwest are dying twice as fast as they were 17 years ago”
But we still have our tropical rainforest's, don't we. Here is some good guess work about the importance of them. "Tropical forest trees are absorbing about 18 percent of the CO2 added to the atmosphere each year from burning fossil fuels, substantially buffering the rate of climate change." But on the other hand. "If deforestation continues at current rates, scientists estimate nearly 80 to 90 percent of tropical rainforest ecosystems will be destroyed by the year 2020. This destruction is the main force driving a species extinction rate unmatched in 65 million years." And as all other things those numbers is leaning to the optimistic side.
And.. " Pollution filled brown clouds may be causing as much warming as greenhouse gasses over southern Asia and threatening the water supply of Ganga, the Yangtze, and Indus with major adverse impact on the areas the rivers serve, researchers say. In a study supported by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), researchers found that the clouds of aerosol particle are contributing to the potentially devastating effects of retreating Himalayan glaciers. "The rapid melting of these glaciers, the third-largest ice mass on the planet, if it becomes widespread and continues for several more decades, will have unprecedented downstream effects on Southern and Eastern Asia," the study concludes.
"This is a big topic of conversation in India. Much of the water supply of north and central India is from major rivers fed by glaciers in the Himalayas and the supply would be adversely impacted if the retreat of glacier continues," the author of the study David Winker of the Nasa Langley Research Center in Virginia said. The hope lies in reducing this pollution, which, combined with the heating effect of greenhouse gases, is enough to account for the retreat of Himalayan glaciers observed in the past half century, with serious implications for such famed rivers as the Ganga, Yangtze and Indus, the chief water supply for billions of people in India, China and other South Asian countries, the study notes." As well as Greenland, and the Arctic losing ice at a ever increasing pace. Btw: Antarctica have started too. It’s measurable now and that, my friend, that’s a very bad sign for us all. You do know that waves in the ocean moves faster now? Due to the accumulated heat from the CO2 warming the oceans. And that hurricanes is worse, all storms will be, everywhere. The weather will become very unpredictable as the atmosphere constantly is pushed up to new energy (heat) levels, snow where you don’t expect it, extremely rainy summers in other places with clouds lowering the average temperature, drought and famish in others. And it won’t be to the better, no matter what tropical fantasies you might have. Those clouds won’t stop any global warming, and the desert will finally migrate to your place too, but then again. I don’t expect us to be there to see it.
( And no, it’s not ‘solar warming’ even though the sun cycles /spots do have a effect..
It would be real strange if the sun didn’t have a effect, wouldn’t you agree.
I mean, wherever did you think ‘summer’ came from? )
And finally, a look at the real ‘killer of life’.
"Originally thought to occur only in the outer regions of the Solar System where temperatures are low and water ice is common. Significant deposits of methane clathrate have been found under sediments on the ocean floors of Earth. "
“We had a hectic finishing of the sampling programme yesterday and this past night," said Dr Gustafsson from the Russian research ship Jacob Smirnitskyi. "An extensive area of intense methane release was found. At earlier sites we had found elevated levels of dissolved methane. Yesterday, for the first time, we documented a field where the release was so intense that the methane did not have time to dissolve into the seawater but was rising as methane bubbles to the sea surface. These 'methane chimneys' were documented on echo sounder and with seismic [instruments]." At some locations, methane concentrations reached 100 times background levels. These anomalies have been seen in the East Siberian Sea and the Laptev Sea, covering several tens of thousands of square kilometers, amounting to millions of tons of methane, said Dr Gustafsson. "This may be of the same magnitude as presently estimated from the global ocean," he said. "Nobody knows how many more such areas exist on the extensive East Siberian continental shelves."
------End of quote--
You see, as we ‘speak’ the methane in the Siberian tundra and various other arctic cold water deposits is already being released in our atmosphere, yep, we’re there measuring it. This ‘methane bomb’ is primed and its fuse is smoking. So the new question becomes twofold. How big are those deposits, ‘big enough’ that they in their turn will warm up the other oceans deeper methane deposits too? And If so, how can we stop it? Methane have already been observed released in deep waters. One off the coast of Norway, one off the coast of North Carolina, and probably elsewhere too. And remember that methane producing bacterias exist in the Perma frost on land too. As well as hydrates under the ground. Hydrates will be created by the combination of a low temperature (around 0 C) and pressure, depending on the pressure surrounding it can remain stable at up to 18 C. So take away the pressure and it will rise but not as oil do.
Remember that the 'permeability' of a gas is higher than that of water (water’s denser). It will find 'ways' out everywhere, land as sea. In fact, estimates are that more than 10% of the world’s hydrates are located on-shore in arctic permafrost; and a sizable — although not quantified — amount are in relatively shallow arctic seas. These are susceptible to melting from warming. And as we know, the polar regions are warming faster and will get hotter than the global average. So a sizable amount of the methane trapped in hydrates is vulnerable to release by warming.
---Quote---Arctic Methane TimeBomb ready to go off---
Methane is a greenhouse gas that is 60-70 times more potent than carbon dioxide (CO2) over a twenty-year
period (or 25 times over a hundred-year period). Human-caused methane emissions are currently
contributing some 20-30% of the observed global warming effects. These include: Energy,
Landfills, Ruminants (Livestock), Waste treatment, and Biomass burning.
However, there are two additional sources of methane that are just now bubbling to the surface.
One source is the methane hydrates (also called clathrates) that have been frozen since the last ice
age in the permafrost lands of Russia, Alaska and Canada, but are now being released as the
permafrost melts. In addition, the methane hydrates, which have been long stored in the cold Arctic
Ocean seabed, are now being released as the ocean temperature rises.
Estimates of the land based hydrates estimates range from 0.8 to 1 gigaton, for the sea-based
hydrates in the Arctic total 1.5 gigatons of carbon, Recent research carried out in 2008 in the Siberian Arctic has shown millions of tons of methane being released, apparently through perforations in the seabed permafrost, with concentrations in some regions reaching up to 100 times normal. Most of the thawing is believed to be due to the greatly increased volumes of meltwater being discharged from the Siberian rivers flowing north. Current Arctic methane release has previously been estimated at 0.5 Megatons (500 000 tons) per year, but now it appears to be increasing rapidly. Shakhova et al (2008) estimate that not less than 1,400 gigatons of Carbon is presently locked up as methane and methane hydrates under the Arctic submarine permafrost, and 5-10% of that area is subject to puncturing by open taliks.
They conclude that "release of up to 50 gigatons (fifty thousand millions ton) of predicted amount of hydrate storage [is] highly possible for abrupt release at any time". That would increase the methane content of the planet's atmosphere by a factor of twelve, which is equivalent in greenhouse effect to a doubling in the current level of CO2.
----------End Quote…..By Jim Stewart, PhD, October 6, 2008,-----
Add to that a possible ‘convection-cycle’, up and down in the atmosphere of at least fifty years (An optimistic ‘best guess’).That means that what ever we ‘push up’ today is ‘earmarked’ to come down and ‘help us breath’ for at least the next fifty years. So even if all stopped today we probably wouldn’t see any reclining effects for something like thirty years (my guess only) and, we’re not even sure how long this cycle can be, some people speaks about a hundred years for CO2 in the atmosphere. There is also the fact that as our ‘heat-sinks’ like oceans and land get saturated (filled up) with CO2 its ‘residence time’ in the atmosphere will increase, to even become infinite if our heat-sinks turn to sources, letting of their accumulated CO2 as the warming get worse. Did you get that? We would be as doomed even if we tried that insane scheme of drawing CO2 pipe-lines into Earth to hide our wastes? Am I getting through here? What it states is that we must stop the CO2 sources, not try to bury them after producing it. I’m sure that you and me both wonder what that sub/arctic methane might do the clathrates frozen under the rest of our ‘ever warming’ oceans? When our mean (average) temperature jumps up due to arctic and tundra methane. To Antarctica and to our already fragile marine life, plankton, krill, reefs, and in fact to.. You.
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #36 on:
20/09/2009 17:52:20 »
And the oceans is one of our primary ‘sinks’ of heat created by that CO2 and methane pollution. But now they’re starting to get ‘satiated’ (filled up) The oceans near Antarctica are thought to have one of the healthiest appetites for greenhouse gases. Their surface waters can guzzle around 15 percent of all the carbon dioxide produced by people, which comes mostly from industry and automobile emissions. The new study found the oceans are mopping up only about 10 percent of carbon- oxide, requiring projections for future levels of greenhouse gases to be bumped up accordingly. " (from 2007) And what do you think will happen as the ice disappears from Greenland and the Arctic, leaving bare land to act as heat-sinks, not reflecting the heat away from Earth anymore.
And then we have Antarctica. It have started to loose ice too “Researchers used satellites to plot changes in the Earth's gravity in the Antarctic during the period 2002-2005. Writing in the journal Science, they conclude that the continent is losing 152 cubic km of ice each year, with most loss in the west”. And a study conducted by scientists at the University of Colorado at Boulder, uses a technique which has not been tried before: measuring gravity over Antarctica. “ When they fly over regions where there is lots of material below, such as mountain ranges, or where crustal rocks are more dense, they will register an increase in the Earth's gravity - tiny, but measurable.” (from 2006)
"Their orbits have a very large inclination, of 89 degrees in fact, so you get very good coverage over the Antarctic," said Isabella Velicogna, one of the Colorado team. "We see the entire ice sheet and measure the mass change of the entire ice sheet; then we look at the east and west separately," she told the BBC News website. Overall, Dr Velicogna's group found an annual decrease in ice sheet mass of 152 cubic km. There is a clear loss in the west, whereas the mass of the East Antarctic sheet appears to be constant. This loss of ice equates to an annual rise in the global average sea level of 0.4mm; by contrast, the total rise, due mainly to thermal expansion of seawater, is estimated at about 1.8mm per year. "With increasing temperatures you get increased precipitation, so what may happen is that ice in the interior grows and then at the coast you have mass loss. So what we found is that for the continent as a whole, the balance between the two is negative." The Colorado team plans to continue observations and analysis of Grace data until the mission ends, probably in 2009.
---------End of quote---
Now I will expect you to use that muscle between your ears.
West Antarctica was it? Loosing the most ice???
Read this excerpt from an old study (1997). One of the most ‘uncomfortable’ I know of.
In fact, as I have the link at hand why not read it all. It’s nicely written and easy to understand.
(Sea Level, Ice, and Greenhouses' a FAQ by Robert Grumbine.)
That West Antarctica can collapse much faster than Greenland relies on another oddity of the West Antarctic geometry. Most of the ice sheet base rests well below sea level (500 - 1000 meters below). The important oddity is that as you move further inward, the land is further below sea level. So, consider a point near the grounding line (the point on land where the ice shelf meets the ice sheet). Ice flows from the grounded part into the floating part. The rate of flow increases as the slope (elevation difference) between the two sections increases. Extra mass loss in the ice shelf means that the shelf becomes thinner (and lower) so more ice flows in from the ice sheet. This makes the ice sheet just a little thinner. _But_ at the grounding line, the ice sheet had just enough mass to displace sufficient water to reach the sea floor. Without that mass, what used to be ice sheet begins to float. Since the sea floor slopes down inland of the grounding line, the area of ice sheet that turns into ice shelf increases rapidly. More ice shelf means more chance for ice to be melted by the ocean.
The collapse mechanism has a mirror-image advance mechanism. Should there be net accumulation, the ice sheet/shelf can ground out to the continental shelf edge. Go back to near the grounding point. This time add some excess mass to the ice sheet/shelf. This thickens the system to ground ice shelf. The grounded ice shelf takes area away from the ocean ablation zone, which makes the mass balance even more in favor of accumulation. So the advance can also be a self- accelerating process. "
-------------End of quote---------------
Nope, there’s no Gym around, teaching you how to beat the sh1t out of it either. But you can try of course.
And you can forget any mean global “two degree C. raise of temperature” at the end of our century. I would start counting on, five. And believing that you, due to any degree in a school of whatever sort, are better adapted to ‘understand’ this problem will only leave you delusional. There is no one able to see what waits for us. Earth is like a ‘stable system’ balancing on a edge today. We are pushing her over that edge. When she goes, she will in time find a new ‘balance’. But that balance won’t be ours..
Some pollution (CO2) statistics today (2009)
(G77 consists of 130 developing countries.)
China 6 103 metric tons spread per 1339 ..million inhabitants
USA 5 752 metric tons spread per 307 ….million inhabitants
G77 4 569 metric tons spread per 2464 ..million inhabitants
EEC 3 914 metric tons spread per 492 …million inhabitants
India 1 510 metric tons spread per 1166 ..million inhabitants
Canada 545 metric tons spread per 34 …..million inhabitants.
Mexico 436 metric tons spread per 111 ..million inhabitants
Brazil 436 metric tons spread per 199 ...million inhabitants
Australia 372 metric tons spread per 21 ..million 0000 inhabitants
Japan 127 metric tons spread per 127 ….million inhabitants
Okay, but who consumes the highest percentage fossil fuels/year then? (CO2)
China 93 %
India 92 %
Mexico 92 %
USA 85 %
Japan 82 %
Brazil 60 %
EEC 58 %
(and South Africa of course, a 95% coal driven economy.)
Last Edit: 20/09/2009 18:00:27 by yoron
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #37 on:
20/09/2009 17:53:11 »
As for Eastern Europe? I don’t really know. But as we can see USA, Australia and Canada comes out on top in this list if you count per inhabitant. And Japan and the G77 countries seems to be the countries that spreads the least CO2 per inhabitant. China who wasn’t expected to pass USA pollution-wise for at least ten years is recently racing to the top followed by India that expect to triple its pollution to 2031. But it’s not a race anymore, it’s a countdown to your extinction. And as I see it, if you won’t face it then you’re the one killing your offspring, shouldn’t that mean ‘something’ for you? Killing your kids? But if so? If we don’t care even for that? Maybe it’s all for the good then, maybe we should leave place for a species that will treat Earth right. You don’t really need to build a spaceship to find that inhabitable planet to survive on. You’re already on it, the biggest and best spaceship you ever will travel in. But it seems as we can’t even learn how to flush its toilets? By the way? Which countries do you expect to take the first ‘hit’ from this pollution? My uneducated guess, first the G77 countries (we already can see it there). And then shortly thereafter Australia, India, Pakistan ( near laying countries) and parts of China. Then us.
Another thing, thinking of it. Most people tend to ‘associate themselves’ with what they’re paid too, be that for good or bad. That makes most of ‘the papers’ exclamations rather dubious to me, as they are owned by interests who might not enjoy to much exposure of this problem. As all ‘Owners’ want their ‘portfolios’ to be arranged to order, in secure investments making them ‘money’, it’s so sickeningly human. And it may make the same papers present a slightly colored ‘truth’, also not wanting to ‘scare the public’ of course. Also the ‘Owners’ might feel that urgent need to arrange new secure ‘portfolios’ first, adapted to the ‘changing’ situation, before it’s to ‘late’... And to that we also can add the ‘politics’ of it, coloring what’s in reality is a problem containing no politics at all. If you’re drowning you don’t care for your lifeguards political views, do you? But in global warming here there seems to be an awful deal of political exposure. I’m not sure our changing climate will care for that though?
The problem we can do something about directly is CO2. And by that also delaying methane releases, and in the best scenario, stop it from happening. And as that old human adage say, ‘let’s do it to them before they do it to us.’
If it was my choice I would tell you to put your car away, but now.
And to stop all coal-based activities, industries etc, but now.
And stop using chemical fertilizers, but now.
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #38 on:
20/09/2009 17:53:55 »
In fact there are a lot of things humanity could do, even today, that we won’t.
Because that would ‘hurt’ our ‘God-given right to be greedy and progress’
(couldn’t help myself:)
We seem as kids, stymied by short-time egotism. And just like unruly kids we refuse to accept when ‘Mother’ have had enough. The worst as well as most ironic thing though, to me that is, is what we seem prepared to die for. A symbol, not a resource, just a symbol we find convenient.
Money is sacred, if it will ‘cost’ then nobody wants it. If it means that some industries will suffer then it’s wrong. If it mean that my paycheck/stocks will go down
I don’t want it. And if it mean I won’t have a job? No way… On the other tentacle, it do represent something ‘real’. Earth’s natural resources. Fertile soil, wild life, oil, minerals, the rainforests, marine life, drinkable water, diverse fragile ecology’s etc. And all of this is disappearing, every day, every minute of your life.
You are getting robbed.
And you’re the one robbing your kids.
Protecting ‘money’ we kill its foundations. Finding out ‘real resources’ is disappearing we go into a ‘feeding frenzy’. Grabbing what resources there be left, exploiting to protect, what else, our sacred ‘economy’…
And your holy right to over-consume of course. The eleventhy-elevetnh amendment to all ‘constitutions’ on Earth today, be they dictatorships or ‘Democratic’.
Trusting any ‘free market’ seems sheer stupidity in this case. And I’m not that sure about the government(s) and the UN, EEC either. We could use ‘one man/one voice- democracy’ here, not the ‘representative’ kind. No friggin ‘Superheroes’ that tells me what to think, or who tells me that ‘this is what you meant by voting me in’. Nope, that’s not what I meant. Why not try common sense for a change. As we could, using the internet as our platform voting. So that’s a hope, that we use the net as it could be used. But we seem to restrict it instead. It’s dangerous, isn’t it? Just as China treats it, policing its use to keep all the ‘right thoughts’ lined up. But in the ‘Western democracies’ it’s the ‘industry’s’ that keeps on pushing for it.
“- Leave such a ‘resource’ in the hands of the public! What a waste.”
“- Regulate it I say, think of our innocent kids. And remember, our profits is your profit (Big sincere smile).”
And with the governments one tiny step behind?
Let me see, ‘representative Democracy’, was it?
So now I’m an ‘errand boy’ for the industry, am I?
And from their point of view I guess the Internet is ‘dangerous’. How will any Emperor ever be expected to keep ‘any new clothes’ on with so many ‘peeping toms’ out there? All screaming that he’s naked. And what kind of ‘government’ would it be if a common man could ‘rule’ directly on national, or international, decisions?
“Hell, they can’t even knit their shoelaces. . .”
Nope. We need good laws protecting the individual. We need a working bureaucracy, populated by intelligent beings that cares for those rights. And we need to make sure that nobody sits to long at any nexus of power. We need the law, the ideas of freedom, but all the ‘stuffing’ building it today? We can make without that. As long as we all have the same vote.. Instead of a assembly of politicians we could have a system where you had to do certain ‘governmental jury duties’ over a year or two of your life. A citizens duty if you like. And yes, you would need to be updated on the issues in question so a lot would hang on those doing research and presenting it to you, that’s where the bureaucracy would come in and their integrity would be tested, and your internet too. And you would be paid, not like a football-star but a decent wage for your work. Same as politics work today too, well, except for the wages perhaps. And no, we could make a system where you have several groups working on the issues, and then use only some (representative:) part of the voters, randomly chosen. That should minimize the probability of ‘pressures’ by ‘interested parties’. What we wouldn’t have in such a system would be all those ‘secret handshakes/deals’ between ‘powerbrokers’ and all that money ‘greasing the wheels’. Most of the questions is about common sense anyway as I see it, and you would learn a lot doing it. And I guess my view here is a nightmare to all collecting ‘power’, of any kind, be it ‘democratic’ or totalitarian. I’ve been hoping for people to see the possibilities for quite some time now? We have Secure cryptography (open and closed ‘keys’) and that combined with ‘one vote - one man’ and the Internet? It’s actually simple, if we would use it. Yes, you would need a computer, a decent web-camera and some software. And if you didn’t have it I guess the state could offer you one as a job-perk. It’s all solvable, and you know what. I think it would be democratic too. And on big issues we would need a larger representation of voters, on some all would be required to vote. That’s what real freedom is, giving you the possibility to make a difference, not your ‘representative’. It’s strange how fast ‘elite’s’ incompetence-declare all others. If you have a vote, it should be yours.
“Hell, he can’t even knit his shoelaces. . .”
“Wha’da’ya’mean, …Could too?”
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
Reply #39 on:
20/09/2009 17:54:49 »
And then what? If we still didn’t care even after such a ‘vote’? Well, we’ve made our decision ‘democratic’ for real, at least. And noticed too I presume. Blaming ignorance or the governments unwillingness to face the ‘truth’ shouldn’t be a excuse anymore, by anyone, be it industries or you. “Hey, nobody told me..” Some real ‘disturbed ones’ may even expect that the ‘rich side’ of the world just have to ‘hunker down and wait it out’. I don’t expect that to work, even though the poor countries will be the ones taking the first hits. If the methane gets loose under our oceans we’re all ‘dead meat’. I’m not joking this time, I guarantee that humans will be gone from this planet if that happens. A lot of people studying geology and Earth’s history says it too. At the Permian-Triassic extinction event . (Around 280 to 230 million years ago) and at the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (63-40 millions years ago), the beginning of what life we know today, this scenario seems to have happened twice already.
Or turn it the other way around. Our vote there said ‘Stop’. Some countries rulers says ‘No’. Well, then we’ll be at each others throats just that tiny bit faster,. Nice slogan btw. ‘Say no, save the species.’ And the ‘opposite’ ‘Say no to save the Species’ You better choose your sign now
That last one is for you doubters, you can get it both ways there, depending on how you read it.
At the Permian-Triassic extinction around 96 percent of all sea life and 70 percent of Earth’s land animals died, To be gone , never, ever, coming back, and furthermore, it is also the only known mass extinction of insects. 57% of all families and around 83% of all related gene groups/materials were killed. And we’re still paying our dues for that one in a poorer Earth, reduced genetic materials etc, although it happened a quarter of a billion years ago. And they had an abundance of life to spend, we don’t, due to our exploitation of natural resources. So, what do you prefer? Go down stating ‘my car is my castle’ or learn how to treat Earth in a sustainable manner? That meaning that we in some ways will have to back up our so called ‘progress’ when it comes to the more environmental damaging processes. Even live on ‘rations’ for a time until we’ve given Earth some chance to restore our ‘larder’. And perhaps stop ‘making’ more people than our Earth can feed. One human, one kid. Non negotiable. For some ten, twenty generations at least, that should help too. As Ban Ki-Moon (UN general secretary) expressed it at a speech in Geneva recently (freely translated from a Swedish source). ‘With one foot on the accelerator we are making our way to the abyss’. Kind of catchy, don’t you think. But hey, ain’t that guy boring? He’s certainly not very charismatic as that brilliant Norwegian diplomat, ever so graciously, informed us.
“ Well lady, I don’t give a flying sh* about that.
I do care about if he’s right though. You should too, thinking about it.”
Then again. What was it that’s making Norway so rich in this day and time?
Brains or Oil? Go figure…
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