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After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.
ITER is not intended to produce grid power - it is for research purposes.- Plasma instability has been a continual problem with all controlled fusion experiments.- I heard two plasma researchers talking in terms that sounded like the plasma was alive.- As a research project, ITER is intended to explore ways to manage plasma. - The cost is enormous, but the potential gains are huge.- The research into superconducting magnets and investment in production facilities will probably have spinoffs into MRI machines and other applications It is probably more productive than a lot of military expenditure.
ou failed to read the title and remember it.
I am afraid you are simply excusing failure
Quote from: profound on 17/09/2017 11:16:35ou failed to read the title and remember it.Well, I remember it.And I remember wondering what shape you thought it should be, and why.And I remember you not bothering to say.I also remember asking you a question.And I don't remember you asking.Did you forget?Quote from: profound on 17/09/2017 11:16:35I am afraid you are simply excusing failureIt's been quite successful.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 17/09/2017 16:10:32Quote from: profound on 17/09/2017 11:16:35ou failed to read the title and remember it.Well, I remember it.And I remember wondering what shape you thought it should be, and why.And I remember you not bothering to say.I also remember asking you a question.And I don't remember you asking.Did you forget?Quote from: profound on 17/09/2017 11:16:35I am afraid you are simply excusing failureIt's been quite successful.Yes.your right.It's been successful at failure.A insider tells me its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare with all these different nations.Each and every great goal is divided into ever smaller incremental goals: anything BUT bold (the BIG is the Bold, not the result). Every modest goal, subdivided. Every larger project decimated.The real goal of Big European Science is to PUBLISH and endless stream of papers. The ITER? It is definitely yielding huge results as a PAPER generator. Megasheets per year. Every test generates up to gigabytes of additional data, the likes of which is so complex that at least as much money is being spent now to make new instrumentation for it than was invested to produce the instrument itself.Spend a million a year, and you get a handful of bosses. Spend a billion and you get a United Nations Subcommittee JUST to create National Science Foundation committees and chairs to oversee the oversight of the sightseeing professional pillbugs that run the joint. Deputy Sub-adjunct of the Department of Internationally Sensitive Foods and Toiletries.Meetings - Oh, the meetings. The meetings to plan the calendar of meetings. The meetings to review the calendar of meetings and debate the authority to change the schedule of meetings. The director(s) - politically correctly chosen from participating nations that oddly enough fail to have much in the way of scientists, but a plethora of modestly well paid bureaucrats that insist that there is nothing more important that a well rounded calendar of progress, direction, budget, mandates-and-goals subcommittee plenary meetings.Accounting. Every bean, stick of gum, replaceable HB 0.5 mm pencil lead, non-magnetic Torx-headed screw, every square inch of Internationally Sensitive Toiletries, every gram of commestibles, every milliliter of water, oxygen, hydrogen and especially replacement HPM filter pads must be accounted for. Accounted for, so that the costs can be proportionately subdivided by the participating nations. And for every employee and/or graduate student, professional, consultant, scientist and curator, to be divided by nationality, sêx, sexual preference, and Special Needs.Revolving door leadership - In, eat the croissants, flap the jowls, check out the toilets and EXIT 1 to 2 years later.Awards Everyone gets an award! Awards for getting the most awards. Awards for having the longest tenure. Awards for Continual Adaptation of the Crazy Experiment to rapidly changing geopolitical scientific mandates and direction realignment. Awards for showing up on time. For most papers printed. For showing extraordinary sensitivity in consuming the Canteens' Internationally Diverse Menu of Foods. Translated into 88 working languages and a few mythical dialects.As I said to you folks before what shape is the fusion powered Sun?I
what shape is the fusion powered Sun?
its a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare
Quote from: profoundwhat shape is the fusion powered Sun?Roughly spherical, using gravitational containment of the plasma.Unfortunately, we can't use gravitational containment for power stations on the Earth, as the power stations would implode.So physicists have been investigating other methods, like:- X-Rays: has been demonstrated, but only works if you don't care much about EH&S issues (Environment, Health & Safety)- Lasers: Stresses the limits of our current laser technology- Magnetic fields: Potentially feasible. Current superconducting magnets have sufficient average strength, but they also needs fast-acting measurement and control systems to temporarily increase the field where the plasma starts to break out, then return it to baseline once the breakout is contained.The other aspect is just sheer size. Volume grows faster than the area, and you lose most of the heat through the surface area. - It is said that some of our existing fusion reactor designs would reach "break even" if you only scaled them up physically.- But this would not produce power competitively with nuclear fission, solar or coalSee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawson_criterionQuoteits a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmareYes, international cooperation is a major logistical nightmare - but so is military development; and war is an even greater logistical nightmare (especially if you really cared about EH&S)!.So I would rather have international cooperation over nuclear fusion than an international war using nuclear fusion (as some hot-heads are currently promoting).
If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.
If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.
Quote from: profound on 18/09/2017 16:43:53If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity.The trouble is that, if we read all your posts, we see that you never mention anything substantial.Do you plan to?
Quote from: profound on 18/09/2017 16:43:53 If you read my original post carefully you will see i never mention gravity. No but in reply you did say:Quote from: profoundwhat shape is the fusion powered Sun?@evan_au was answering that question in relation to your reply. Just to explain what he is saying, the sun is spherical because of gravity and gravity is also the containment field.Quote from: profound on 18/09/2017 16:43:53After looking at it in detail I can declare with full confidence that it will NEVER work because of a fundamental flaw in the concept and it should be shut down.If that is the full extent of your 'detailed' analysis other, deeper thinkers such as @Thebox will run rings round you.So, do you have a detailed anaysis or not?
As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks
Quote from: profound on 19/09/2017 21:52:54As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinksAs you see, you really can.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonicsSo, since you are plainly wrong, perhaps you would like to apologise.
in the sun fusion occurs at the center and any kinks simply encounter more plasma surrounding it.in a torus doughnut any kinks overcome the containment
The ITER is a huge failure and will continue to be no matter what they do.The cost has ballooned to 40 billion...what a expensive joke.
As you can see in a spherical shape you cannot have these kinks but in a circular ribbon of plasma it's impossible to stop the kinking no matter how much you try.
Quote from: profound on 20/09/2017 07:15:03in the sun fusion occurs at the center and any kinks simply encounter more plasma surrounding it.in a torus doughnut any kinks overcome the containment Do you not realise the contradiction there?It's as if you haven't thought this through.