How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?

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Offline neilep

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Hi Peeps,

Here's a place called Earth:

[attachment=1077]

The tourist board have given 4 out of 5 stars !..Still, i think I'd like to visit one day !!..apparently the natives can be a bit restless !!


Before I pack my bags though I was wondering what the  meteorological weather is ?

How much ' stuff ' gets added to the planet each day ?  ie: dust, metoerites....you know!!..STUFF !!..and how much does it lose ?...does it equal itself out ?



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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #1 on: 28/09/2007 11:48:22 »
From Talk Origins (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moon-dust.html)we have this:
"These more accurate measurements give the value of about 18,000 to 25,000 tons per year. These measurements agree with levels of meteoritic dust levels trapped in sediments on Earth. (That is, they are verified by an independent cross-check.)"

Erosion of the atmosphere by the solar wind and general loss of atmosphere by thermal leakage is covered by this:
"The author points out that at present the Earth loses matter at a rate of 1 to 3 kilograms per second, the rate and composition varying with solar cycle (sunspot cycle). Recent measurements (K. Seki et al, Science 291:1939 2001) suggest the rate is lower than this, but even with a net loss of 3 kilograms per second, it would take 50 billion years to deplete the Earth's atmosphere and at least another 15 trillion years to evacuate the oceans. For comparison, the total lifetime of the Sun is only approximately 10 billion years."

If I haven't missed a decimal place, that's a loss of between 30,000 and 90,000 tons a year. So the net effect is that the planet is slimming down, but not so as you'd notice.
Source:http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw050909-2.htm

« Last Edit: 28/09/2007 11:51:02 by Ophiolite »
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Offline _Stefan_

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How Much Stuff Does The Earth Lose and Gain Each Day ?
« Reply #2 on: 28/09/2007 13:06:33 »
Does the Earth catch up the lost matter when it returns on its orbit?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #3 on: 28/09/2007 13:27:09 »
No. It simply becomes part of the extremely rarified interplanetary medium: the odd atom or molecule or ion here and there.
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Offline neilep

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« Reply #4 on: 28/09/2007 14:42:51 »
THANK YOU very much indeed Ophiolite....FASCINATING !!..and I thank you for the link too !!

I am surprised that the findings reveal a loss..but..as you say....in the grand scheme of things you'd not notice !!
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #5 on: 28/09/2007 16:02:30 »
We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate. The highest gravitational pull is at the poles, this is where most of the material comes down to Earth and this is where measurements should begin. The centrifugal force at the equatorial regions counteracts the pull of gravity to some degree so will inevitably attract less material than the poles. But then we are looking at solids, what about molecules as they enter the Earths Gravitational Field? Here atoms are forced together to make gasses liquids and solids. The Aurora Borealis is an example of particles excited by the field around the poles.  Most of the material arriving on the planet will end up in the ocean, how is this measured?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline syhprum

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« Reply #6 on: 29/09/2007 09:37:25 »
Continental drift does not imply that the Earth is expanding for every upswelling from the mantle pushing the continents apart there is a corresponding subduction drawing them together.
One of the most obvious is India being pushed into the Asian land mass causing the upswelling of the Himalayan range.
syhprum

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #7 on: 30/09/2007 08:13:20 »
Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field! More water = more pressure at the bottom of the ocean. A bit like squeezing a rubber ball, press your finger in and increase the pressure forcing the rest of the ball to expand. Continental drift confirms the planet is growing!
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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #8 on: 30/09/2007 13:57:43 »
"is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together"
Oh yeah? Where does this hydrogen come from?
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #9 on: 30/09/2007 14:13:24 »
Approximately 73% of the mass of the visible universe is in the form of hydrogen. Helium makes up about 25% of the mass, and everything else represents only 2%.
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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #10 on: 30/09/2007 17:25:05 »
Far more than 73% of the known universe is what we scientists call "a long way away" and cannot contribute to the mass of the earth.
Where do you supose the earth is getting hydrogen from?
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #11 on: 30/09/2007 19:25:15 »
You got me there m8, every single water molecule has hydrogen. hydrogen abounds everywhere, decay water and we get hydrogen which turns back into water. Jupitor has a moon that is being stripped of it's mass by the gravitational pull of the massive planet indicating that Jupitor at least is growing at a phenominal rate. We saw huge meteors pulled into Jupitor a few years back again indicating the planet is growing. Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen. What happens to a glass of water thrown into space? Instant vaporising OR DECOMPOSITION? There is plenty of evidence of particles arriving, However measuring atomic particles arriving might prove a little more difficult than standing atop a mountain with your hands open.

Where do you suppose the water came from?
« Last Edit: 30/09/2007 19:27:41 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #12 on: 01/10/2007 10:41:16 »
We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate.
I don't' know the character of this forum well enough to know if I am allowed to say 'bollocks' without getting my fingers rapped by a moderator, but my respect for science, the scientific method, and the results derived therefrom, leave little option but to say absolute, unmitigated, coronary inducing bollocks. Syphrum has already dealt partly with this, but let me take a few more swipes at it, so that any novices are not mislead by such nonsense.
The continents are not only drifting apart, they are drifting together. Not only do we see this in the case of continental collision (India into Asia, for example), but we can measure it with by satellite observation. Since the continents can thus be shown to be moving towards each other should I declare that the Earth is obviously shrinking? It would make us much sense as your spurious claim it is expanding.
And, you say, expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate. Meaningless verbiage. Relative to what? Who defines it as phenomenal?
The highest gravitational pull is at the poles, this is where most of the material comes down to Earth
Nonsense. Your first point is valid - gravitational force is marginally lower at the poles than at the equator (the difference is less than 1%). However, do you really think that a 1% difference in gravitational attraction is going to create a significant difference in the distribution of incoming material?
But then we are looking at solids, what about molecules as they enter the Earths Gravitational Field? Here atoms are forced together to make gasses liquids and solids. The Aurora Borealis is an example of particles excited by the field around the poles.  Most of the material arriving on the planet will end up in the ocean, how is this measured?
If you care to read the links I provided earlier you would not need to ask that question. We can measure the amount of dust collected at high altitude - whether over ocean, or over sea. We can measure the amount of extraterrestrial dust in oceanic deposits. We can compare these values - and guess what, within the limits of experimental error, there is a good match.
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Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field!
I think several exclamation marks (!!!!) are in order after such a ridiculous statement. We have a very good idea of the composition and magnitude of the solar wind. We also understand its effect upon the atmosphere in some detail. Its net effect is ablative, not additive.
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More water = more pressure at the bottom of the ocean. A bit like squeezing a rubber ball, press your finger in and increase the pressure forcing the rest of the ball to expand.
You need to take some basic classes in strength of materials.
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Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen.
Unless they started out as hydrogen then being drawn towards a mass is not going to convert them to hydrogen.
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Where do you suppose the water came from?
Some is from degassing of the mantle, some is from cometary impact, mostly during the Heavy Bombardment phase around 3.5 to 4.0 Gyr ago.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #13 on: 01/10/2007 19:04:05 »
Tut tut
Science deserves no respect, respecting beliefs is what brings science to it's knees. Science by design is open for debate and science that relates to subjects that are definately open to debate should. I have no intention of leading novices, unlike your clear intention to do so.
The planet is growing! And the larger it get's the faster it will grow! How do you suppose we have planets larger and smaller than Earth? All planets evolve through the same process of increasing mass to the point where the mass is so great the planet cannot sustain the intense reactions, eventually either turning into a sun or becoming part of a greater planet, which inevitably becomes a sun, which begins to decay over time shedding it's particles into space where the process of planatery growth is repeated endlessly.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #14 on: 01/10/2007 20:05:31 »
I understand that because it formed part of the title of a punk album the work "bollocks" was tested in court, certainly on this side of the atlantic and probably both. It was found not to be obscene.
Frankly, this being a scientific site the nonsense and guesswork put forward above should cause more offence than the crudest of language.
"Why do you have a problem with smaller particles, molecules, electrons protons and neutronsn being drawn towards the mass and converted on entry into hydrogen."
I have a problem with that because it doesn't make a lot of sense.
There are certainly particles trapped by the earth. There's enough evidence that at least some of this is water- the analysis of commets as "dirty snowballs" applies here, though a lot of the stuff we hit is rock (without much hydrogen).
We do therfore pick up some hydrogen as water (and, just to rub in the point, we pick up rather a lot more oxygen as water).
This water tends to get vaporised high in the atmosphere by the energy of the impact with the atmosphere. At these altitudes it is exposed to the raw radiation from the sun. Hard UV and xrays are quite capable of breaking the bonds in water. This gives rise to elemental hydrogen and oxygen (the yeilds aren't that good but there's plenty of time, even for slow reactions).
Here's the intersting bit. Hydrogen is very light and, thanks to the equipartition principle, it ends up with just as much kinetic energy as, for example, the oxygen. In order to have the same energy the light hydrogen atoms must be moving faster than the oxygens.
More of them therefore happen to end up with energies greater than the escape velocity for the earth (a bit lower than the normally accepted value because of the altitude; it's easier to escapoe gravity if you are further up to start with.)

Gobsmacking as it may seem, the atoms with velocities greater than the escape velocity have a tendency to escape.

Earth loses hydrogen.
So, for the 3rd and hopefully final time of asking; Where does the hydrogen come from?

"Science deserves no respect, respecting beliefs is what brings science to it's knees. "

I'm with you half way on that. Respecing belief is what causes science trouble. What science should respect is evidence.
In the same way, if you can provide evidence for some of your outlandish claims you might get some respect.
On the other hand where the evidence shows that your theories are not tennable, you will lose all respect very quickly.
For example this "All planets evolve through the same process of increasing mass to the point where the mass is so great the planet cannot sustain the intense reactions, eventually either turning into a sun or becoming part of a greater planet, which inevitably becomes a sun, which begins to decay over time shedding it's particles into space where the process of planatery growth is repeated endlessly."
is clearly at odds with the observation that, given the way nuclear fusion and gravity work and also the observations made on other stars, the fate of the Earth will be that it gets fried by the Sun when it goes red giant whereas Mercury will be engulfed.

2 fates for 2 planets.

If reallity doesn't agree with your theory it isn't reality that's wrong.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #15 on: 01/10/2007 21:50:27 »
Jupiter will become a sun before Earth, it is already heating up, does it fit that the largest planets are the hottest, even though they are further from the sun? Do I care whether you or anyone else respects me? I do care that many people are led to believe that science literature holds all of the answers, it does not hold many answers that have stood the test of time to be quite truthful. Science is constantly evolving. for every question answered there are ten questions there to replace it.

RE: Gobsmacking as it may seem, the atoms with velocities greater than the escape velocity have a tendency to escape.

I have no problem with some atoms being projected outwards. Indeed my theory on fluid transport shows that for every action there is a reaction.

I am saying that the material attracted to the mass, in this case Earth comes in all forms, not just dust that can be seen and measured but as particles from the smallest atomic particle to the largest comet. There are plenty of examples of meteors arriving on this planet. Never seen one leave the planet yet though! In fact just the other night my wife, son and I stared at the huge firework display as hundreds of meteors entering the Earths atmosphere, Didnít see a single one of them leaving the planet! But I guess you will have an explanation showing that these obvious additions to the planet do not equate to the planet growing in size.

Ring around Saturn for example. Is this ring a result of the increased centrifugal force around the equatorial line? I donít know for sure but makes sense to me?

As for the arrival of hydrogen. Do you have a better idea where this massive amount of material came from?
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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #16 on: 02/10/2007 08:34:23 »
Andrew you are mistaken in almost every one of your statements. You do not understand science, or the scientific method. Your misinterpretation of basic facts and observations can only be explained in one of three ways.
1) You are very poorly educated and of low intelligence.
2) You are mentally unstable.
3) You are taking the piss.
Regardless as to which of these is the explanation I see no point in continuing a discussion with an individual whose ideas are so far from reality their distance would best be measured in parsecs.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #17 on: 02/10/2007 08:41:05 »
4) You are looking in a mirror.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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« Reply #18 on: 02/10/2007 10:42:40 »
now now boys!

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #19 on: 02/10/2007 19:28:12 »
Once again I think that Andrew has demonstrated that at least some of Ophiolite's ideas may be correct. The implication of Andrew's post is that those descriptions apply to Ophiolite too. A brief look at his previous postings indicates that this simply isn't the case.

Andrew, I invite you to go and study (at least) the basics of science before posting. Not only wil this avoid cluttering up the board with vague guesswork, but it will reduce your oportunities for looking like a fool.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #20 on: 02/10/2007 22:51:47 »
At least my vague guesswork is based on logic. You say the Earth is shrinking? I question this belief and you call me a fool for doing so? My posts are mere clutter on this board according to you? I gave an observation of the arrival of material on this planet observed with the naked eye by myself and I suspect many more observers. I did not see a mass of material heading out into space. I do not believe in Black Holes either if you would like to take a personal pop at this statement please do so. And while you are at it I do not have a religious belief either.

You however and et al purport to having a sound understanding of science. What have you discovered that has contributed to science?
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Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #21 on: 03/10/2007 08:09:01 »
Andrew there is absolutely no evidence that the earth or any other planet has changed its mass by any significant amount over many billions of years in fact all the evidence suggests that the mases of the planets are very stable.  If this was to happen the whole solar system would rapidly become unstable.

Also the temperature of the earth is too high and the gravity too low for the earth to attract and retain hydrogen or helium.

Another inmportant point is that if the earth was attrascting a significant amount of hydrogen it would also collect a significant amount of helium.  This is an element that is very rare on the earth and only found associated with decay products in radioactive rocks and not in the atmoosphere to if your hypothesis has any credibility where is the helium?
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #22 on: 03/10/2007 13:54:30 »
Hi

In evolutionary terms, planetary growth is rapid. Compared to the existence of man however it is relatively undetectable because adding several hundred thousand cubic metres of mass as gas, fluid, and solids would be virtually impossible to quantify.

It has been postulated many times how old this planet is and all sortís of guesses have been thrown in for good measure. Carbon dating for example relies on dating rocks generally found at the surface. I suspect that the true age of this planet would require a few million more zeroís on the current estimates. For example, carbon dating accuracy is good for only a few thousand years so can no tell us how old a rock is with any degree of certainty. I was on the beach today, one of my favourite places, called Mansands in South West Devon. On this beach there are huge formations of graphite, obviously the result of countless years of sedimentation. The formation crumbles easily between your fingers. In the graphite, there are veins of quartz and on the beach there are many huge marble rocks eroded smooth by the waves. I have took some photographs and a walk through video so you can experience the whole picture.

Layer upon layer of sediment, which has been transformed into graphite over countless years. The formations have been uprooted and protrude from the earth on an angle, and I cannot begin to imagine how long these rocks took to develop. As I was walking along the beach listening to the waves washing over the soft stones and wearing them down before my very eyes, I thought to myself, the sediment from the action of the waves is moving this material to another area where it will once again form a sedimentary deposit. How many times before has this happened. Given enough time a gold bar will erode away and vanish into the oceans. How many times has this graphite slate been wiped clean by time?

The point I am making here is that science is only relative to the moment in human timescales.

Earth dating or Rock Dating?

Thorium and the common isotope of uranium(U238) are not markedly less abundant than the other heavy elements.  ÖSince the half-life periods of thorium and of common uranium are 14 billion and 4.5 billion years, respectively, we must conclude that these atoms were formed not more than a few billion years ago.  On the other hand Ö the fissionable isotope of uranium (U235) is very rare, constituting only 0.7 percent of the main isotope.  ÖThe half-life of U235 is considerably shorter than that of U238, being only about 0.9 billion years.  Since the amount of fissionable uranium has been cut in half every 0.9 billion years, it must have taken about seven such periods, or about 6 billion years [now taken to be 4.5 billion years], to bring it down to its present rarity, if both isotopes were originally present in comparable amounts (Gamow, 1952, pp. 15Ė16).

The rock formation I was witnessing eroding away by the waves could have been carbon dated at the point of watching it erode. But how many times has that rock formed previously and who was around to date it then? And carbon dating may not be as accurate as we are led to believe it is.

Anyway, looking at the rocks thrust up into the air by massive underground force can we really believe this planet is that stable? Is it really cooling down? Or is it heating up?

Video of favourite beach, unusual rocks, slate, quartz, eroding into the sea. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/852205/mansands_rocks_unusual_formations/
 
« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 18:31:40 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #23 on: 03/10/2007 19:25:56 »
A very picturesque post but you only seem to be confirming what I am saying.  There are many ways of quite accurately dating the earth and the sunn and they all come out with the answer of around 5 billion years old a bit less than half the age of the universe itself  the earth has been substantially the same size since shortly after tyhe start because bith observation and models predict that stars and planetary systems form in a few million years.

I agree the earth is dynamic and the continents are drifting around on it.  The record shows they have moved around all over the place and shift significantly in periods of hundreds of millions of years
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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #24 on: 03/10/2007 19:51:56 »
"You say the Earth is shrinking?"
Err, no I didn't. So, exit stage left one strawman.
"At least my vague guesswork is based on logic. "On what logic is this based? "Upswelling is caused by deepening oceans as more water is produced by oxygen and hydrogen being forced together as the molecules enter the gravitational field! "
Just for a start, the earth's gravitational field is infinite (or at least a large as the potentially visible universe). Nothing enters it.
Perhaps you might want to give us the logic behind "We only have to look at the way the continents are drifting apart to realise the Earth is expanding at a relatively phenomenal rate." in the light of the fact that some of the continents are crashing into eachother.

If the earth were growing then measurements of it would show this; that's real science. Even the ancient Greeks measured it so we have records of how big it used to be. Sorry to tell you but if your "logic" doesn't tie in with reality it isn't reality that needs fixing.

"I gave an observation of the arrival of material on this planet observed with the naked eye by myself and I suspect many more observers."
And I had already said that there are gains in the earth's mass (for example as oxygen from comets) but that they are small.
I'd like to see where you showed the arrival of the massive amounts of hydrogen that you claimed.

"I did not see a mass of material heading out into space. "
I have never seen the US of A. I still believe it exists because there is other evidence for it.

"You however and et al purport to having a sound understanding of science. "
Well, yes I think I do understand quite a lot of science.

"What have you discovered that has contributed to science?"
Well, for the sake of maintaining anonymity I'm not going to answer that but just for the moment lets assume that the answer is "absolutely nothing at all". So what?
One contribution I might have made was to explain something scientific to someone. That's a real achievement but you seem to discount it because it isn't a discovery. Who knows? maybe I even explained something on this site.
Maybe I explained that there's no way the earth can pick up hydrogen from the cosmos. Of course, if nobody listened that's a pity.

« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 19:55:19 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #25 on: 03/10/2007 22:13:15 »
Now at least we have agreed that the Earth may not be shrinking after all. Odd really if the planet is cooling down, one would expect it to be shrinking as it  cools, which contradicts stability also.

The logic of impact caused by material adding to the planet mass that logic! Remember the theory about massive meteor impacting the Earth causing an end to all life? Not my hypothesis but there is evidence of larger impacts. There are ample craters around. The moon surface is peppered with impacts large enough to be measured. That is what I am stating as logic. Like I said before, I have never seen a meteor leaving the planet but I have seen many arriving here. Another point worth mentioning is if the Earth is cooling down, and is many billions of years old, how come itís taking so long to cool?

RE: Continents crashing into each other. Iím not aware of continents crashing into each other. I am aware of tectonic plates rubbing together causing earthquakes and volcanoes. And looking at the rock formations on the beach near our home, there must have been many powerful plate movements in the U.K alone. I saw a programme a while back where there was a debate about the planet expanding or shrinking. The continents were animated along with a shrinking of the planet and all of the continents went back together like a huge jigsaw puzzle. I liked particularly the way the U.K fitted against the rest of Europe. Coincidence? Donít think so. Anyway, the continents donít finish at the coastline and are all joined together so in effect they can not be crashing into each other and have to be rubbing or riding over each other.

Animation in flash showing how continental drift fits with expanding Earth.
http://www.tlonh.com/articles/expandingEarthAnimation.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_Earth_Theory  History of the expanding Earth Theory


Dust particles collected from the tail of a comet and returned to Earth by the spacecraft Stardust are challenging scientists' theories of how the solar system formed.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/mar/15/starsgalaxiesandplanets.spaceexploration
« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 22:33:48 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #26 on: 03/10/2007 22:40:12 »
A flood of interstellar dust is breaching the sun's weakened magnetic shield and drifting into the solar system, according to European astronomers.

The interstellar dust particles measure about one-hundredth the diameter of a human hair. The bits are thought to supply the building blocks of all solid bodies in the galaxy, including the planets and humans.

"All atoms in Earth were in interstellar grains before the solar system formed,"
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0827_030827_spacedust.html
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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #27 on: 05/10/2007 15:50:16 »
My concern in all of this is the possibility that casual visitors to the site, persons relatively unschooled in the sciences, may read Andrew's posts and believe they represent something of substance - an alternative view of the facts. This is not so. As has now been pointed out, several times, by Bored Chemist and Soul Surfer, they fail in the general and they fail in the specific. They lack logic and consistency, they ignore the facts and dwell in the realm of 'I'd like to believe'. We would all like to believe a great many things, but thaat will not make them true.

Andrew, two of us have now pointed out a specific flaw in your argument for the Earth's expansion (and by the way as Bored Chemist pointed out no one said the Earth was shrinking). You claim the fact that continets are moving away from each other proves the Earth is expanding. How then do you account for the continents that are moving towards each other.
If you can answer that question in a logical, cohesive manner, you might regain a measure of respect.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #28 on: 05/10/2007 17:23:44 »
There you go again, implying my intent is to corrupt young minds. I think young minds are capable of determining facts themselves and solving problems for themselves.

Mountains rise and cause valleys, continents do not drift apart any more than they crash together. More an expansion of the Earth's surface, which of course will not come without a serious amount of friction and violent reaction. If a mountain range is suddenly thrust outward from the planet surface the surface on both sides of the mountain range will inevitably be pulled in. Mountain ranges can be found beneath the ocean surface as well as above it. If a continent is drifting apart it merely indicates the surface is stretching. The same goes for the ocean pressure which can crush a submarine like an aluminium beer can under your foot. This pressure must also be taken into account, particularly when continents are being pulled apart. A deepening ocean can also account for continents being pulled closer together as an opposing force to the rising mountains. Again deepening oceans will have an impact on the land as well as the ocean bed because pressure on one point will cause a rise at another point, much the same as pushing your thumb into a balloon or pushing the balloon out from inside, increases the pressure of the balloon causing it to expand.
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« Reply #29 on: 05/10/2007 17:37:08 »
Now you answer a question for me.

If the Earth is cooling And you state that it not shrinking or expanding but stable. Why is the Earth not shrinking as the Earth is cooling? A cooling core would certainly produce far less pressure and given the length of time the Earth has been cooling it should have at least shrunk quite a bit.

How do you account for this?

Good luck

Andrew
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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #30 on: 10/10/2007 16:50:16 »
I suspect it may be shrinking by a very small amount. The amount of cooling that is taking place is limited. (The average heat transer through the crust over an entire year could melt less than 1cm of ice.) I will be quite happy to concede I am completely wrong if you show me that the shrinkage is significant - that should be a straightforward calculation using reasonable figures for temperature drop and the coefficients of thermal expansion for crust, mantle and core.
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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #31 on: 10/10/2007 19:09:11 »
Roughly (and estimates vary) the first rain fell on earth 4 billion years ago. Since then it's fair to say that the crust has been below 100C. The deepest ice ages are not thought to have cooled all the earth much below freezing. so the temperature change at the surface has been something like 100 C over 4 billion years.
Deep down the temperature is likely to have changed much less because the heat would have to be brought through the crust to heat or cool the core.
Typical expansion coefficients for materials are of the order of 10ppm per degree.(generally less for denser materials like the stuff deep in the earth).
That gives a worst case change of about 0.1% over 4000000000 years.
That's pretty stable to my way of thinking. You can call it "quite a bit" if you like but please clarify the matter by giving a numerical estimate- this is meant to be science.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #32 on: 16/10/2007 09:24:17 »
What if science is completely wrong? What if the earth began stable like many more planets that are smaller in mass than the earth? Nearest example the moon! What if the earth is growing at a painfully slow rate? What if the rock that was carbon dated, which I might add is wholly inaccurate anyway, was broken downs by water pulled down by plate movements as sediment deposit, reformed and brought back up to the surface, possibly a thousand times or more before? What if entire continents have been eroded away and reformed many times? We certainly see this happening today at any given coastline!

The point I am trying to make here is that any rock we try to date the earth from could well have been reassembled many times previously. We do not know that this rock has been here since the planet developed! If I left a solid block of iron in the sea over countless millions of years it would erode away. Even a gold bar will erode away, by the elements over time. Heaven knows there is enough gold in the ocean to prove this point alone.

I have no doubt that the Earth is a far greater age than anyone could begin to imagine. Saying it is five billion years old is not substantiated by dating a rock! We have seen civilizations sink beneath the waves and all but the very largest stone based remains have vanished through erosion. Where has all that eroded material gone? To form another sedimentary layer on the ocean surface no doubt!

If we take this further. The Earth could certainly have been inhabited many times in the past and most traces vanished, cleansed by incalculable timescales.
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« Reply #33 on: 16/10/2007 22:47:39 »
A lot of rocks have been eroded and reformed many times.  geologists work with thre detailed structure of the individual particles that make up the setimentary rocks that form a lot of the earth's crust.

The shrinking and expansion of solid materials with temeperature is only a tiny proprtion of their total length and nowhere near the factor of 2 0r 3 that these crazy expanding earth ideas seem to require.

Why do you wish to have an earth with an age much greater than the 5 billion years or so that seems to be the most likely age. 

In the early days of geology they were really worried about the age of the earth because it appeared that stars like the sun could only shine for a few million years (they didnt know about the nuclear energy sourges that keep the sun shinig and the centre of the earth molten.  They could also see that the general erosion and rteconstitution pattern of the rocks required much longer periods than this and that there must be a process theat regularly created new mountains and recycled the materials
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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #34 on: 17/10/2007 11:13:19 »
What if science is completely wrong? What if the earth began stable like many more planets that are smaller in mass than the earth? Nearest example the moon! What if the earth is growing at a painfully slow rate?
What if? Well, if any of these speculations were true there would not only be evidence for this, but that evidence should outweigh the evidence for alternative explanations.
What if the rock that was carbon dated, which I might add is wholly inaccurate anyway,
Carbon dating is not wholly inaccurate. Within its limits it is very accurate and well validated by, for example, dendrochronolgy. Just don't look for anything sensible beyond 50,000 years. And remember: we don't date rocks by carbon dating. I think you are confused here.
What if the rock ...was broken downs by water pulled down by plate movements as sediment deposit, reformed and brought back up to the surface, possibly a thousand times or more before? What if entire continents have been eroded away and reformed many times?
Well, if that had happened we would find evidence for it in the geological record. We do indeed find that it has happened dozens of times, but not thousands.
The point I am trying to make here is that any rock we try to date the earth from could well have been reassembled many times previously. We do not know that this rock has been here since the planet developed!
Again, you seem to be labouring under a misunderstanding of how we have dated the Earth. All the rocks we date have been reassmebled and processed since the Earth formed. Thus the oldest rocks we have been able to date are IIRC some gneisses in Greenland dated to around 3,800 billion years BP. These gneisses were originally sediments, which points to somewhat older source rocks for those sediments ot erode from. Some zircons (an accessory nmineral)in younger rocks have been dated to around 4,200 billion years BP. The age of the Earth is based upon the age of meteorites, which are thought to have condensed out of the solar nebula at the same time as the Earth began to accrete.
. Saying it is five billion years old is not substantiated by dating a rock!
But saying it 4.5 billion years old is substanitated by dating meteorites and the oldest rocks to be found on the Earth.
.If we take this further. The Earth could certainly have been inhabited many times in the past and most traces vanished, cleansed by incalculable timescales.
Very romantic, but like most romances, largely fictional.
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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #35 on: 17/10/2007 19:25:57 »
"What if science is completely wrong?"
Then you are on the wrong website.
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