[lichardi]

Magnets do indeed seem to defy mr Neuton in a way. I bought a magnetic clamp for my table saw a while back. This device clamps onto the table with the simple twist of a knob which removes a simple baffle  between the magnet and the table. The torque required to do this can easily be done with ones baby finger what 2 inch pounds over 90 degrees of twist,  yet when in the clamp position I can literally lift hte whole table-- nearly 100 pounds . Thsi makes no sense whatsoever. I am exerting less than 1/50th of the force required to clamp the device. Something is missing no equal opposite reaction applies here...So there is no answer here (sorry) but a suggestion that we have to look deeper and with more humility and more of an open and more determined mind than science offers at this time....

[Madidus_Scientia]

It doesn't take much force to apply glue either, which could have the same effect.

[David Cooper]

It seems to me that the real question is about potential energy. When two magnets are set up in such away that they will try to pull or push each other, it's much the same as a heavy weight being positioned where it can fall downwards towards the Earth. The energy is stored as potential energy and can be converted to kinetic energy if one of the magnets or the weight is allowed to move. By raising a weight we can turn kinetic energy back into potential energy. When you compress a spring you also convert kinetic energy into potential energy which can later be recovered and turned back into kinetic energy.

When you store energy in chemicals, you make electrons move more energetically and the potential energy is manifested as this extra kinetic energy like a flywheel. In the case of hydrogen and oxygen gas, their bonds involve energetic electrons which hold potential energy in their speed: when these molecules are burned to make water, the electrons lose energy which is converted into movement of atoms (heat and travel).

I assume that magnetism and gravity store potential energy in some other way, but I've no idea what the mechanism is.

[gurpal]

the power comes from the magnetic force feild of the earth

[Bored chemist]

No matter what the question was this "the power comes from the magnetic force feild of the earth" was never the answer.

[Michael L]

I am trying to affiliate myself with people like you here to develop maybe not perpetual motion but something close to develop electricity, there are hundreds of ideas already in existance but not much on the market, perhaps I can intrigue someone to get in touch with me to help me develop further my ideas

[Mike]

So... I understand how all the static magnets behave. What I don't understand is how can this:

work?
Considering the friction and air drag, this fan shouldn't be working. Yet it does.

[amster]

I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?

[malaki]

I believe the magnetic force is caused by the accumulation of the aligned atoms within the magnet.  these aligned atoms have electron 'clouds' which are polarized (north/south).  the electrons are essentially 'speeding' around each atom (more or less. i don't feel like getting into quantum physics at the moment) creating and electron field or cloud.  when all the atoms within a material are aligned with one another, the electron fields are shared as a common whole, more or less.  electricity and magnetism are two aspects of one whole, the photon.  as electricity flows, a field of magnetism is produced around it, and vise versa.  so basically, the atoms all align, therefor creating one large electric flow of sorts, and thereby creating one large shared, magnetic field.  So, basically what i'm trying to say is that the magnetic force itself  comes from the nucleus of the atom, holding the  electrons in orbit, compiling the fields together, creating a magnetic force.  essentially, it's powered by nuclear force.  electromagnetic force, and strong and weak nuclear forces (which bind the atom together) are all different representations of the photon.  so the answer is basically that the magnet gets its power from the universal energy that binds all things together, the same source that causes fission and explosions, and chemistry, and teddy bears, and the sun, and...carpet ants.  just another form of the energy, condensed into a specific orientation, combination, variation, etc ( you get the point i'm sure) to come together to form what we call a magnet with it's magnetic force.  I hope that helps.

[curiouskid]

if it is due to electricity in a factory then the electric energy must be constantly converted into magnetic energy. conversion of electric energy into other forms of energy takes place naturally only when the conductor has some amount of resistance to electric current. is this even true that electric energy is being the source of magnetic energy? if yes, does it mean that if the circuit has zero resistance it will not have the electric energy converted into magnetic energy and, as a result, will have no magnetic property?

[Dendric]

It is a cop-out to avoid the obvious fact that magnets do work as they act against gravity or forces that try to push them together or pull them apart. Newton's laws, Maxwell's 4 equations (edited by others from his 20 quaternion equations), and Lenz's law are not inviolate and represent distorted incomplete understanding of magnetic fields and EM. Tesla knew otherwise, as have and do many others that learn to think for themselves rather than accept dogma.

[Dreamer]

I m not a smart guy but I do have imagination. I believe that we will soon be capable to travel on space time “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” .by Albert Einstein 
I think that the humanity is like a piece of metal on a large magnet, where, we are being pull down by gravity. The same way with our planet Earth that it being pull dawn by the gravity of the Sun and the Sun by another superior gravitational force.
When, we get to the point in which we are capable of building and space ship that could create a gravitational force strong enough to push the Earth gravitational force, the same way the earth pushes the Sun we are going to be traveling on space time. (Sun’s gravity +( - ( + Earth gravity)) +( - ( + artificial gravitational force  + mc²)) )…A magnet its capable to create + and - witch it creates a gravitational force in a small scale.

[alancalverd]

I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?

Energy is force x distance moved. If the lower magnet doesn't move, no energy is being expended.

Consider replacing the upper magnet with a piece of string - is there any energy input whilst  the lower magnet is stationary?

[evan_au]

I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?

Perhaps you are thinking of a human treading water, or a helicopter hovering?

In these cases, your hands (or the helicopter rotor blades) are pushing down on the water (or air), exerting a force. This force is exerted over a distance, and this takes energy.

This is all horribly inefficient - if you wanted efficiency, you would only swim in shallow water where you could stand up, and you would leave your helicopter parked on a high hill.

But the magnet does not move, and so does not consume energy to stay in place.

(With most magnet structures, the hanging magnet is unstable - any small movement of the air might move them slightly closer, and they will immediately stick together. Any small movement apart and they will fall apart. So you probably would need an active control system to stabilize it, which consumes some energy.)

[puppypower]

In magnetic iron, the outer most elections of the iron atoms, will align with the same spin. Same spin electrons repel each other. This will not allow the magnetic fields of the individual electrons to cancel, but rather it increases the magnetic potential of the electron grouping. This is the potential energy behind the magnet. This electron configuration within magnets is stable at level of the iron atom. However, it contains residual potential energy; magnetic, since this is not the lowest possible way to arrange these electrons in terms of energy.

If we heat a magnet, activation energy can be added to the electrons, so they can climb the energy hill and then lower potential by assuming a lower energy arrangement of the electrons. This involves opposite spin electrons which attract and cancel their magnetic fields. This type of iron will not show any magnetism.

In the diagram below, which is used for chemical reactions, but also applies to any movement between stable states of matter, the magnetic iron would on the left. It is higher up the hill (reactants) than the plateau on the right (product). It occupies a stable plateau, but with lingering energy potential. This is sort of unique in the sense we can see this lingering potential as magnetism. Heating will push it up the hill and once at the top, it freely slides down into the more stable non-magnetic plateau.

We can also go the other way; right to left or non-magnet to magnet,  by adding energy, such as electricity, to push the electrons up the hill from right to left. Once the electrons reach the top off the hill, they will assume the stable magnetic plateau, since this is more stable with energy environment of electricity. 

[Villi]

Magic. Obviously.

[William McC]

These replies all seem to have come from a textbook which was written by someone who reads textbooks. The "irrational" mind would serve to at least stimulate here. Is it possible that our definition of "work" may be flawed. Is it possible that merely "acting" on a body, either in motion or at rest, does indeed constitute work?  Is it possible that the energy is actually input into the magnet at a rate equal to the energy "lost". Is it possible that we humans have all the answers regarding physics, and no modification to what we "know" will ever be made? Is it possible that man cannot and will not ever "fly like a bird"? I think we had all better preface our statements with "I am told" or "I read" until we actually figure out some of our other seemingly unexplained mysteries, like where 75% of the matter (energy) in the universe resides.

Even the manufacture of gasoline and diesel is just a circular perpetual motion operation in itself. They use coal to take hydrogen from water steam actually, and then reclaim the carbon dioxide created during the operation, and re-burn the carbon monoxide for heat to sustain the reaction. They need a constant supply of coal and water, however in the end they end up with a lot high BTU fuels that are then burned and create water and carbon dioxide. The trees use the carbon dioxide and grow, and we take the wood and can make man made coal from the trees or corn or any source of carbon.

A helicopter hovering above the ground creating air pressure under the rotor and a vacuum above the rotor, burns a lot of fuel to do so. Why? Because it is fighting a constant force of gravity, which we know exists as a force that we can measure. So if a magnet can repel and levitate from another magnet on the ground, and stay aloft it is fighting the force of gravity constantly with a created sustained magnetic field, not actual material like a spring would be using. People have built some cool perpetual motion devices using magnets, they are just for the demonstration of perpetual motion though not for practical power. They do it by cutting or pulsing the magnetic field, in this way you can create constant movement with magnets.

The voice coil in a speaker does something similar.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McC]

I was taught that magnets harness the ever present ever in motion ambient radiation. Magnets that are joined at opposite poles, do not attract one another, because our universe was designed without attraction forces. The magnets are pushed together by ambient radiation. Between the magnets a flow is setup from one magnet to another, and if you have ever put a short piece of hose up to a similar piece of hose that is flowing water, you can note a strange occurrence. As the short piece of hose moves closer to the hose spewing water, the small piece of hose is suddenly apparently pulled to the hose spewing water. In reality the water exiting the short piece of hose being moved closer to the hose spewing water, is pushed to the hose spewing water, by pressure at the exit point of the small hose.

Magnets work the same way, they create a constant flow of particles of electricity. If you ever doubt perpetual motion, get two large aluminum plates with a piece of thin glass between them, and lay the wires from a magneto that uses permanent magnets to generate electricity on one of the plates and give it a little spin. Measure the output and declare your wrist or the magneto perpetual motion.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[Atkhenaken]

The sub-atomic world is frictionless and can spin forever. This is the source of magnetic energy.
.

[chris]

This related discussion is quite informative:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=68131.msg496240#msg496240

The topic has also been explored here too:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=34290.0