[neilep]

There are of course times when enraged people will do anything (law abiding or not)...and if a gun happens to be nearby then the 'moment of madness, flit of frenzy' thing might happen......surely we've all nearly been there !!..........but I have no doubt that 99.99% of gun owners are law abiding citizens as are 99.99% of non gun owners too.....chances are...if it wasn't a gun, it'll be a knife.......presumably it's the 'calculated intending to do harm to people' type person we should all be worrying about....what about those guys who went on sniping sprees in the US, if they could not get their hands on the arms they would have not been able to do those crimes, else they would have  used crossbows and sling shots, catapults etc...but yhey clearly intended to do harm..I wonder what they would have done without access to arms.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[neilep]

Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.

cheers

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[Corbeille]

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!

[Donnah]

Why not make it mandatory for gun owners to complete a training program and a psychological profile?  In the licensing/registry database there should be a "fingerprint" for every gun.  Then law enforcers could do a computer search for a gun the same way they match fingerprints.

My son makes chain maille shirts (among other things) and is getting business from bar owners who want to protect their bouncers from knife attacks.  They are cooler and less bulky than flack jackets.  A sad statement of our society that it has come to that, but good for Steve's business.

[bezoar]

I bought a gun once.  All I had to do was fill out some papers that essentially gave info on who and where I was, and that I didn't have a mental history.  Now I think you have to wait 48 hours for a criminal background check as well.  It's not at all difficult.  Every pawn shop has a good supply of guns.  There are tons of mail order catalogues.  And, as they say, guns don't kill, people do.  I guess over all, if you look at genetic bases of behavior, we are a country created by rebels, and maybe we inherently have a somewhat more volitile nature.
Generally speaking, I personally find the tendency toward violence goes hand in hand with youth, and a low intellect.

[Ylide]

quote:Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.

My personal opinion is that it's based in our founding.  You see, America was originally colonized by religious puritans who were so stuck-up and stodgy that the BRITISH said "get out of here, please."  Like most religious extremists, they abhorred sexuality and curse words but had no problem with violence.  (especially against those not of their faith)  Our culture now is directly descended from this mode of thought...it is the reason that primetime television can show the brutalized mangled corpse of a dead prostitute on your average cop show and no one says boo, but god forbid you see a nipple.  Think of children.  

So, since mainstream entertainment cannot be racy in the way that the rest of the civilized world can, they have to make up for it with shooting, explosions, and killing.  Our kids are raised seeing multiple acts of violence on any given day of watching televsion.  In most well adjusted humans this isn't such a big deal, other than desensitizing us to it.  In less adjusted folks, especially ones that are not raised to respect the lives of others, this can result in a higher tendency to resort to violent crime.  

There was a study years ago, I cannot remember when or where it took place, but it involved taking subjects from American, European, Asian, and Middle-eastern cultures (don't recall exactly which ones) and showing them graphic images.  They were then told to rate their level of aversion/attraction to the images.  The images contained graphic nudity, sex, corpses, mutilations, guns, and some control pictures of food and stuff.  On average, the Americans and the Middle Easterners were more offended by the sex and nudity than by the violence.  On average, the Europeans and Asians were less offended by the nudity than by the violence.  I think this speaks volumes as to the effect of certain religions on culture when they are highly integrated.

Oh, and to Neil:  Gun ownership, while being a constitutional right, is mostly a state-run issue.  In some states, like New York and California, guns are registerd and licensed, and licenses issued are only after extensive police background checks.  In others, more conservative states like Colorado (where I live) and most Southern states, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in 20 minutes.  You have to fill out a registration form from the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) and get a quick telephone background check that makes sure you're not a felon.  You may not carry your gun concealed in most states, as well.  In New York, your license to own a gun is also your license to carry it, hence the extensive checking and registration.  In the majority of states, you must apply separately for a CCW (carry concealed weapons) permit and be subject to a background check by law enforcement who then amy or may not grant you the permit at their discretion.  Unless you live in a right-to-carry state, meaning they have a law stating that as long as you pass a background and mental health check and have the proper certification (usually an NRA class) they MUST issue you a carry permit.  There aren't very many of those, though...maybe 10-15 last I checked.

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[Donnah]

I agree that there is too much violence shown.  Last night I rented a PG (parental guidance) movie and within 10 minutes they showed a man sawing off someone's legs with a hacksaw.  That's when I hit the "off" button.

The problem that I have with nudity is that it is one sided.  We are bombarded with boobs, and they have no problem shoving a camera up a woman's vagina, but heaven forbid that a man's testacles be shown!  I heard (unconfirmed, but it would seem to be that way) that it is illegal in Canada to show pictures of erections in the magazine or movie (don't know about porn) industries.  That's what I call discrimination.

[Ylide]

See, you can't even show a boob in the US unless it's pay cable channels like HBO or an on-screen.  And on those channels, usually you won't see a dick, you'll see breasts and maybe a litle flash of pubic hair, same sexism as you mention.  It's still pretty prudish.  Mostly because of the NC-17 rating...if they allow too much nudity it will get rating NC-17 rather than R, which means teenagers (the primary market for cinema) can't go see it even WITH a parent.  

But yet you can show a severed head (and even make jokes with it) in a PG-13 or even PG movie.





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[tweener]

Neil,
To go a little further with the gun purchasing...  You can go to a "gun show", which is a convention of dealers, and buy whatever you see.  Cash, no paperwork, no names, no registration or record of any kind.  You can look in the newspaper classifieds and do the same from any private individual.

Felons are not allowed to posess guns, and usually get pretty stiff sentences if they are caught.

I believe that banning guns would be even more futile than banning drugs.  Cocaine and heroin (and many others) have been illegal for many many years, yet anyone who wants some can certainly get it pretty much anytime.  The real difference is that illegal drugs are not inspected and have no quality control.  So, the price is higher and the quality is lower and the prisons are full, with no reduction in the overall useage statistics.  

My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at.  And I used to be quite good at that, though I'm rusty now and my eyes just aren't what they used to be.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[roberth]

So, the US Government fines TV companies for showing boobs on TV, has a futile war on drugs that they cannot win, that costs more than the war on terror, that is also proving difficult to win, and the citizens can go to a trade fair and buy a rocket launcher or uzi without any ID. Geez. I know I'm a child of the late fifties, but does "make love not war" seem to be lost within the US mindset. I know I'd prefer my kids to see Janet Jackson's boob than a head being lopped off with a chainsaw. I've got no issues with the USA, I think their role as the world watchdog on all things evil is important to world stability, but there seems to be some serious issues with priorities within the Government.
Canada, on the other hand...what can you say about a country that produces fine TV like the Naked News, my favourite late night news program.

[Raedon]

Actually I've got hand me down assult rifles from my grandfather.  

Now owning an assault rifle used to be illegal, but that ban is gone now.  

In the USA you can buy a useful hunting rifle, or a kinda useless handgun that is more for killing people.... or an assault rifle able to take out 100 animals in 30 seconds.  Like a Street Sweeper.. http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976486382.htm or the good ol' AK-47 http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976512779.htm

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.

[Raedon]

quote:Originally posted by neilep

Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.

you need to be American.

  I walked into Wal-Mart at 14 and baught my first .22 long rifle with scope for $89.99 US; though you could buy cigarettes at any age back then.

  Mostly a hunting rifle is, "I'd like that one" a pistol is, "Fill out these forms, we will call you in 6 days." and now that the ban on assult rifles is gone, All you need is money to arm yourself with the most powerful weapons ever made.

good/bad?  The guns were already on the streets anyway just like anything else banned that people want.

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.

[Raedon]

quote:Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership?

Statistics are always good, from a 1999 look at this.

In 1999 there were 1776 gun deaths in the 0 through 17 age group and 3385 gun deaths in the 0 through 19 age group. By subtraction we find that there were a whopping 1609 gun deaths in just the 18 through 19 age group. Historically the 18 through 24 age group is the highest crime-committing group.

Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths according to the Bureau Of Justice Statistics.

drugs and suicides account for more than 2 out of every 3 gun deaths in the USA.  

Basically more then half of the US death rate due to guns could be stopped if people didn't point them at themselves.

Actually the numbers are quite low compared to death from smoking or drinking.  Those two dwarf all other forms of preventable death.

Is there tobacco and booze in the UK?  I sure hope so!  Booooze...

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.

[Ylide]

Owning an assault rifle wasn't illegal, even during the gun ban.  At the time the bill was passed, all existing guns that were categorized by the bill were grandfathered.  So, you could realistically go to a gun store and buy an AR15 or AK47 with all the "naughty" parts banned by the bill.  Hell, you could even buy a pre-ban receiver and add anything you wanted to it.  All the loss of the bill did was allow the addition of cosmetic components that make the gun look scary.  

I own two assault rifles currently...an AR15 (basically a semi-automatic derivative of the military M16) and an SKS.  (a derivative of the AK47)  I bought them both during the ban.  You know what the passing of the ban allows me to do now?  Put bayonets on them and use magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.  (which I could do anyway as magazines were grandfathered too, I just had to buy older ones)  Oh, the horror!

The only thing that non-military (read: not automatic) assault rifles have going for them is being semi-automatic.  They fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Most hunting rifles fire bigger rounds with more muzzle velocity, but generally have a closed bolt and can't be rapid fired.  The tradeoff is rate of fire for accuracy and power.  It still kills things just as effectively as an assault weapon, if not more so.  

The ban is gone, it did nothing anyway, let's all move on with our lives.  It's not like assault-rifle-wielding maniacs were going to obey the law until the ban was lifted.  



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[roberth]

Y'now canna..sorry, ylide, I read your post and it just makes me sad. Why the hell would you want to own those?

[Ylide]

I think a better question is why WOULDN'T you want to own them.  =)  

Seriously though, I have them partly because target shooting has a very zen-like quality and partly because I like the machismo of it.  If you've never fired a gun before, you couldn't possibly understand.  Let me clarify that I, like most gun owners in America, have never even pointed a gun at another human being.  I don't hunt, either.  But, when it comes right down to it, I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.  I don't know what gun laws are like in Australia, but unless you've grown up with guns and understand them, it's natural to be skittish of them.  

I own a .45 for home defense.  If someone comes into my residence with intentions on robbing or harming myself or my loved ones, I will not cower in fear. I will not call the police with hopes that they save me in time...I'll call them to let them know they have a body to pick up.  

My rifles, well, I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out.  It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.  Think of it as the gun version of Pascal's wager.  

Radeon summed it up pretty nicely:  there are a lot worse things out there than guns that are far more likely to kill you.  The assault rifles just look scary so they get more attention.  Even then, well over 90% of gun deaths in the US are from pistols or shotguns.

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[Corbeille]

I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out. It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.

Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?

Nah pop no style, a strictly roots!

[Raedon]

quote:Originally posted by Corbeille


Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?

Texas, We are already set up with a civil government and police force seperate from the US, just in case of civil or devistating War on US soil.

  Personally There are only three things worth fighting for in the world..  Family, your land (not talking fighting a war for ***), your ideals and they all hold the same importance.


It is good to be alive! It's impossible I'm here but here I am.. and I rock!

[roberth]

Well, I think you've just confirmed my argument, Ylide. The mere fact that you have these guns, if a nasty situation arose, would lead to a more violent ending than if you didn't have them. I would (and have) eject unwanted people from my house without the need to shoot them. I'd stand between my family and any aggressor and I sure wouldn't shoot anybody over any ideals that I may hold dear.
I have used guns before, I just couldn't see any sense in continuing their use.
Basically, the gun laws in Australia were changed (tightened) after a shooting incident a few years ago. You need a licence and can't get a pistol, semi/automatic, pump action shotgun, any assault type gun unless you have a damn good reason.

[Raedon]

by ideas I mean freedom.. Like why Iraq isn't all peaceful right now. It's not the States fault on that either, we just happen to be the ones doing the bully work while funds come in from Japan and the UK to help without getting their hands bloody with oil (little rant)

anyway..

  Lets say you knew a small group of ten to twenty men were busting into yours and other houses in your small town of one hundred or so people and taking families to a camp because you were.. ohh.. Jewish lets say.  Would a gun have been nice then?  Think a small town with some arms could have stopped them then organized a stand or went underground?

  The right to a gun in the States was something we were handed to protect us from the British and so families could protect themselves from Native Americans.

..

  I think you might be reading to much into this.  I have two pistols, both handed down to me by my grandfather and father and a 22 rifle I've had for 20 something years I used for target sport.  I've never killed a living thing with a gun, I shot the heck out of some cans and targets.

 I've caused more death with my car tires and small animals then anything else.

But if you came into my house and messed with my way of life yours would end... gun or not. period.


It is good to be alive! It's impossible I'm here but here I am.. and I rock!