Why aren't guns banned in the USA?

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Offline qpan

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« on: 28/09/2004 18:07:17 »
How come guns aren't banned in the USA like in the UK or the majority(all?) of europe?
Surely the US would be a safer place if guns were outlawed?

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #1 on: 28/09/2004 19:07:34 »
Don't you american chums have this 'freedom to bear arms' thingy written down somewhere ?

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #2 on: 28/09/2004 21:33:59 »
The second amendment of the American constitution states that;

 "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".
 
The word militia is important. When the amendment was written it meant a body of men who could be called up to defend their country and  the right to "bear arms" was provided to maintain weapons skills
for those members of the militia.

So not very relevant with today's professional army even if  the English monarch decides to invade again because he can't go fox hunting instead.

"The right of the people" is guaranteed to raise passions regardless of where it is used.

The USA would certainly be a safer place if guns were banned but this would be difficult as millions of guns are in circulation. A firearms ban in the UK was successful as there were not as many legally held guns in circulation as in the US. The UK government took the opportunity and had public support to do so after the Dunblane massacre. The Home Office had a register of all "legally" held guns and compensated the owners financially.

In the US the gun manufacturers are too rich and too powerful. A presidential candidate need squillions of dollars to win a campaign and will have to represent the interests of his funders when he gets into office. The arms manufacturers donate heavily to candidates and senators and get their interests (profits) protected. The NRA will tell us that "guns don"t kill people - people do" which is total baloney but while they pay the piper......


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Offline deweys hamster

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #3 on: 28/09/2004 21:49:26 »
switzerland is one european country where guns are legal.  i got the following site by googling
newbielink:http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/wallstreet.html [nonactive]
the concluding statement of this site is
 
quote:
The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."

 

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Offline tweener

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #4 on: 28/09/2004 21:51:36 »
Banning guns will not make anywhere safer - it'll just ensure that the criminals are the only ones with guns.  For example, there are entire classes of drugs that are quite illegal, but that does not stop people from obtaining them.  It just makes them more expensive and lower quality.

There is a strong body of evidence that crime rates increase whenever there is a general ban on weapons.  I believe this is true in the UK also.  Conversely, when the ban is lifted, the crime rate goes back down.

If 30% of the population carried a gun, how many criminals would be plying their craft?  (This does not apply to fanatical suicide bomber types who don't care).

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Offline OmnipotentOne

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #5 on: 28/09/2004 22:55:55 »
hahaha gotta love the second amendment!  I guess it might be a better place but there still would be issues if we banned them.  But all the southern folk wouldnt take to kindly to it, probably brandishing there baby as they walk on washington.  

It confuses me how fully automatics can be considered as hunting weapons.

And also how awkward it is that you can literally buy rocket launchers, M4's, gattling guns, and pen guns on this site  www.gunsamerica.com  But of course strictly for memorbelia only[;)]

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #6 on: 28/09/2004 23:51:05 »
Ben Hur loves guns doesn't he ?

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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #7 on: 29/09/2004 00:04:10 »
In Australia it's illegal to own a gun unless you are a registered hunter or gun club member. Then, the type of weapon able to be owned is severly restricted. It's now even illegal to carry a knife or blade unless you have a good reason. I hate guns !! I don't care what the NRA says, guns are designed to kill people, particularly hand guns. These are banned here, so only the police, the military and the criminals have them. I'm still undecided whether the banning of guns reduces crime. Crimes with guns have certainly reduced since the ban was introduced, but it is offset by increases in other types of violent crime.
 

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Offline qpan

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #8 on: 29/09/2004 00:42:45 »
Yes, I hate guns too. In the UK it is also illegal to carry a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches.

Tweener, banning guns will make a place safer. In the UK, there is very little gun crime as there are very few illegal firearms in circulation. Guns are extremely dangerous weapons and are, as roberth said, designed to kill people.

If you "ban" guns while there are still a large supply of illegal firearms available, then fair enough, crime will go up as criminals will have guns while the public do not. However, if you ban guns outright and do a good enough job to ensure that there are very few illegal guns around, then basically no one has guns and crime goes significantly down. I'd rather a robber tried robbing a bank armed with a knife rather than a gun, i'd tell you that now. And i bet a robber would think twice about robbing a bank armed with only a knife.

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #9 on: 29/09/2004 19:46:00 »
Quite true that banning guns would mean any remaining guns would be possessed by criminals but the US has a problem with killings using legally held guns.
The guns that killed JFK, King, Lennon and students at Columbine were legal. In the UK the spree killings at Dunblane and Hungerford were carried out with legally held weapons.
 A ban on guns would go a long way to preventing ordinary people seeing the red mist and killing someone in a fit of rage. Any of us are capable of it. Children wouldn't play with their father's gun and injure or kill themselves. However with so many guns in circulation, many people will hang on to one illegally for self defense. It would take something massively tragic for public attitudes to change.

Anyway, the question was why aren't they banned in the US? and the answer is "it's everybody's right to have one"





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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #10 on: 29/09/2004 20:26:41 »
Ban them or not...they'll ALWAYS be a black market for guns, drugs....glucose tablets !!..what ever......

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Offline george

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #11 on: 04/10/2004 08:40:32 »
Terrorism is banned in the UK, but that didn;t stop the IRA... I agree with Neilp - banning things usually creates the greatest inconvenience for law abiding people, and the least for those acting illicitly.

And in relation to the USA's rather bizarre take on guns, if everyone having the right to have one is causing the problem, why not take away the right for everyone to have one ?

If atomic bombs were written into the constitution, before someone realised that they might be dangerous, would you not ban those ? What is this business about the constitution. It's hundreds of years old. For a country that prides itself on being at the forefront of the world it seems rather over the top to obsess over a crappy old bit of paper written when times were totally different.

Geez. (oh god, I'm turning into an American, I'll be saying things suck next, like my vacuum cleaner...)
 

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Offline bezoar

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #12 on: 08/10/2004 00:46:27 »
Just that that crappy piece of paper helped make us the country we are today, and even though it's not perfect, seems to me a lot of people want to come here to visit and to live -- particularly some of those guys from the Middle East....
 

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #13 on: 08/10/2004 19:39:51 »
The UK has no written constitution. Does that make it a better or worse place than the USA?

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #14 on: 08/10/2004 20:26:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

The UK has no written constitution. Does that make it a better or worse place than the USA?

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!



Good question, I think it's impossible to say whether a place is better or worse to live , it's so subjective and you would probably have to live for a good length of time in every country to be in a position to answer that.....though for me,I suspect it's safe to say that I would prefer a 'westernised' country ......my opinion for me, myself...is that, if I had no family here...I'd probably want to emigrate somewhere...perhaps the states, Oz, Saturn !!

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Offline chris

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #15 on: 12/10/2004 15:02:10 »
Good idea Neil. You said you had a weight problem. In America you'd be considered anorexic. Make the move mate ! Easier than a diet any day !

C

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Offline bezoar

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #16 on: 15/10/2004 00:25:31 »
That's brilliant.  If you could just solve Neil's sleep problem.  Maybe if he moved here and lived in Las Vegas -- no one ever sleeps in that city.
« Last Edit: 15/10/2004 00:26:16 by bezoar »
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #17 on: 15/10/2004 03:02:02 »
Packing my bags...on my way....Vegas is just west of London isn't it?..............by about 4000 miles or so ?....last time I was there I won 300 bucks...yayyy !!


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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #18 on: 15/10/2004 17:24:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

Quite true that banning guns would mean any remaining guns would be possessed by criminals but the US has a problem with killings using legally held guns.
The guns that killed JFK, King, Lennon and students at Columbine were legal. In the UK the spree killings at Dunblane and Hungerford were carried out with legally held weapons.
 A ban on guns would go a long way to preventing ordinary people seeing the red mist and killing someone in a fit of rage. Any of us are capable of it. Children wouldn't play with their father's gun and injure or kill themselves. However with so many guns in circulation, many people will hang on to one illegally for self defense. It would take something massively tragic for public attitudes to change.

Anyway, the question was why aren't they banned in the US? and the answer is "it's everybody's right to have one"



First of all, you need to look at some gun crime statistics before you say things like that.  You cited a few rare extreme cases as your examples.  Most gun injuries/deaths ARE caused by illegally possessed guns.  

In fact, you mention Columbine, those were illegally possessed guns.  They were purchased legally but then handed over to the kids who comitted the crime.  The only thing they bought themselves was the ammunition.  (which should have been technically not allowed as well)

Most (legal) gun owners are responsible, law-abiding citizens.  I promise you, going into a rage does not make you go for your gun.  Either you intend to kill someone or you do not.  Sure, a society with any guns will be safer...but we already have millions of guns here, that's just not going to happen.  

Canada has more guns per capita than we do, just so you know.  According to every gun control nut on the planet, they should have murder rates through the roof.

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Offline chris

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #19 on: 15/10/2004 18:54:31 »
mmm, but give an arsonist a box of matches and watch wha happens...

Chris

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #20 on: 15/10/2004 19:46:29 »
There are of course times when enraged people will do anything (law abiding or not)...and if a gun happens to be nearby then the 'moment of madness, flit of frenzy' thing might happen......surely we've all nearly been there !!..........but I have no doubt that 99.99% of gun owners are law abiding citizens as are 99.99% of non gun owners too.....chances are...if it wasn't a gun, it'll be a knife.......presumably it's the 'calculated intending to do harm to people' type person we should all be worrying about....what about those guys who went on sniping sprees in the US, if they could not get their hands on the arms they would have not been able to do those crimes, else they would have  used crossbows and sling shots, catapults etc...but yhey clearly intended to do harm..I wonder what they would have done without access to arms.

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« Last Edit: 15/10/2004 22:06:10 by neilep »
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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #21 on: 15/10/2004 19:47:42 »
Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.

cheers

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #22 on: 15/10/2004 21:45:43 »
So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.

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Offline Donnah

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #23 on: 16/10/2004 23:06:13 »
Why not make it mandatory for gun owners to complete a training program and a psychological profile?  In the licensing/registry database there should be a "fingerprint" for every gun.  Then law enforcers could do a computer search for a gun the same way they match fingerprints.

My son makes chain maille shirts (among other things) and is getting business from bar owners who want to protect their bouncers from knife attacks.  They are cooler and less bulky than flack jackets.  A sad statement of our society that it has come to that, but good for Steve's business.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2010 14:44:38 by Donnah »
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Offline bezoar

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #24 on: 17/10/2004 13:01:20 »
I bought a gun once.  All I had to do was fill out some papers that essentially gave info on who and where I was, and that I didn't have a mental history.  Now I think you have to wait 48 hours for a criminal background check as well.  It's not at all difficult.  Every pawn shop has a good supply of guns.  There are tons of mail order catalogues.  And, as they say, guns don't kill, people do.  I guess over all, if you look at genetic bases of behavior, we are a country created by rebels, and maybe we inherently have a somewhat more volitile nature.
Generally speaking, I personally find the tendency toward violence goes hand in hand with youth, and a low intellect.
 

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #25 on: 17/10/2004 13:24:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.



My personal opinion is that it's based in our founding.  You see, America was originally colonized by religious puritans who were so stuck-up and stodgy that the BRITISH said "get out of here, please."  Like most religious extremists, they abhorred sexuality and curse words but had no problem with violence.  (especially against those not of their faith)  Our culture now is directly descended from this mode of thought...it is the reason that primetime television can show the brutalized mangled corpse of a dead prostitute on your average cop show and no one says boo, but god forbid you see a nipple.  Think of children.  

So, since mainstream entertainment cannot be racy in the way that the rest of the civilized world can, they have to make up for it with shooting, explosions, and killing.  Our kids are raised seeing multiple acts of violence on any given day of watching televsion.  In most well adjusted humans this isn't such a big deal, other than desensitizing us to it.  In less adjusted folks, especially ones that are not raised to respect the lives of others, this can result in a higher tendency to resort to violent crime.  

There was a study years ago, I cannot remember when or where it took place, but it involved taking subjects from American, European, Asian, and Middle-eastern cultures (don't recall exactly which ones) and showing them graphic images.  They were then told to rate their level of aversion/attraction to the images.  The images contained graphic nudity, sex, corpses, mutilations, guns, and some control pictures of food and stuff.  On average, the Americans and the Middle Easterners were more offended by the sex and nudity than by the violence.  On average, the Europeans and Asians were less offended by the nudity than by the violence.  I think this speaks volumes as to the effect of certain religions on culture when they are highly integrated.

Oh, and to Neil:  Gun ownership, while being a constitutional right, is mostly a state-run issue.  In some states, like New York and California, guns are registerd and licensed, and licenses issued are only after extensive police background checks.  In others, more conservative states like Colorado (where I live) and most Southern states, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in 20 minutes.  You have to fill out a registration form from the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) and get a quick telephone background check that makes sure you're not a felon.  You may not carry your gun concealed in most states, as well.  In New York, your license to own a gun is also your license to carry it, hence the extensive checking and registration.  In the majority of states, you must apply separately for a CCW (carry concealed weapons) permit and be subject to a background check by law enforcement who then amy or may not grant you the permit at their discretion.  Unless you live in a right-to-carry state, meaning they have a law stating that as long as you pass a background and mental health check and have the proper certification (usually an NRA class) they MUST issue you a carry permit.  There aren't very many of those, though...maybe 10-15 last I checked.

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Offline Donnah

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #26 on: 17/10/2004 16:16:15 »
I agree that there is too much violence shown.  Last night I rented a PG (parental guidance) movie and within 10 minutes they showed a man sawing off someone's legs with a hacksaw.  That's when I hit the "off" button.

The problem that I have with nudity is that it is one sided.  We are bombarded with boobs, and they have no problem shoving a camera up a woman's vagina, but heaven forbid that a man's testacles be shown!  I heard (unconfirmed, but it would seem to be that way) that it is illegal in Canada to show pictures of erections in the magazine or movie (don't know about porn) industries.  That's what I call discrimination.
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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #27 on: 17/10/2004 20:40:12 »
See, you can't even show a boob in the US unless it's pay cable channels like HBO or an on-screen.  And on those channels, usually you won't see a dick, you'll see breasts and maybe a litle flash of pubic hair, same sexism as you mention.  It's still pretty prudish.  Mostly because of the NC-17 rating...if they allow too much nudity it will get rating NC-17 rather than R, which means teenagers (the primary market for cinema) can't go see it even WITH a parent.  

But yet you can show a severed head (and even make jokes with it) in a PG-13 or even PG movie.





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Offline tweener

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #28 on: 19/10/2004 04:44:29 »
Neil,
To go a little further with the gun purchasing...  You can go to a "gun show", which is a convention of dealers, and buy whatever you see.  Cash, no paperwork, no names, no registration or record of any kind.  You can look in the newspaper classifieds and do the same from any private individual.

Felons are not allowed to posess guns, and usually get pretty stiff sentences if they are caught.

I believe that banning guns would be even more futile than banning drugs.  Cocaine and heroin (and many others) have been illegal for many many years, yet anyone who wants some can certainly get it pretty much anytime.  The real difference is that illegal drugs are not inspected and have no quality control.  So, the price is higher and the quality is lower and the prisons are full, with no reduction in the overall useage statistics.  

My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at.  And I used to be quite good at that, though I'm rusty now and my eyes just aren't what they used to be.

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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #29 on: 19/10/2004 05:36:21 »
So, the US Government fines TV companies for showing boobs on TV, has a futile war on drugs that they cannot win, that costs more than the war on terror, that is also proving difficult to win, and the citizens can go to a trade fair and buy a rocket launcher or uzi without any ID. Geez. I know I'm a child of the late fifties, but does "make love not war" seem to be lost within the US mindset. I know I'd prefer my kids to see Janet Jackson's boob than a head being lopped off with a chainsaw. I've got no issues with the USA, I think their role as the world watchdog on all things evil is important to world stability, but there seems to be some serious issues with priorities within the Government.
Canada, on the other hand...what can you say about a country that produces fine TV like the Naked News, my favourite late night news program.
 

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #30 on: 19/10/2004 06:28:25 »
Actually I've got hand me down assult rifles from my grandfather.  

Now owning an assault rifle used to be illegal, but that ban is gone now.  

In the USA you can buy a useful hunting rifle, or a kinda useless handgun that is more for killing people.... or an assault rifle able to take out 100 animals in 30 seconds.  Like a Street Sweeper.. http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976486382.htm [nofollow] or the good ol' AK-47 http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976512779.htm [nofollow]

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #31 on: 19/10/2004 06:46:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.



you need to be American.

  I walked into Wal-Mart at 14 and baught my first .22 long rifle with scope for $89.99 US; though you could buy cigarettes at any age back then.

  Mostly a hunting rifle is, "I'd like that one" a pistol is, "Fill out these forms, we will call you in 6 days." and now that the ban on assult rifles is gone, All you need is money to arm yourself with the most powerful weapons ever made.

good/bad?  The guns were already on the streets anyway just like anything else banned that people want.

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #32 on: 19/10/2004 10:51:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership?



Statistics are always good, from a 1999 look at this.

In 1999 there were 1776 gun deaths in the 0 through 17 age group and 3385 gun deaths in the 0 through 19 age group. By subtraction we find that there were a whopping 1609 gun deaths in just the 18 through 19 age group. Historically the 18 through 24 age group is the highest crime-committing group.

Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths according to the Bureau Of Justice Statistics.

drugs and suicides account for more than 2 out of every 3 gun deaths in the USA.  

Basically more then half of the US death rate due to guns could be stopped if people didn't point them at themselves.

Actually the numbers are quite low compared to death from smoking or drinking.  Those two dwarf all other forms of preventable death.

Is there tobacco and booze in the UK? :D  I sure hope so!  Booooze...

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #33 on: 23/10/2004 02:02:59 »
Owning an assault rifle wasn't illegal, even during the gun ban.  At the time the bill was passed, all existing guns that were categorized by the bill were grandfathered.  So, you could realistically go to a gun store and buy an AR15 or AK47 with all the "naughty" parts banned by the bill.  Hell, you could even buy a pre-ban receiver and add anything you wanted to it.  All the loss of the bill did was allow the addition of cosmetic components that make the gun look scary.  

I own two assault rifles currently...an AR15 (basically a semi-automatic derivative of the military M16) and an SKS.  (a derivative of the AK47)  I bought them both during the ban.  You know what the passing of the ban allows me to do now?  Put bayonets on them and use magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.  (which I could do anyway as magazines were grandfathered too, I just had to buy older ones)  Oh, the horror!

The only thing that non-military (read: not automatic) assault rifles have going for them is being semi-automatic.  They fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Most hunting rifles fire bigger rounds with more muzzle velocity, but generally have a closed bolt and can't be rapid fired.  The tradeoff is rate of fire for accuracy and power.  It still kills things just as effectively as an assault weapon, if not more so.  

The ban is gone, it did nothing anyway, let's all move on with our lives.  It's not like assault-rifle-wielding maniacs were going to obey the law until the ban was lifted.  



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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #34 on: 23/10/2004 15:53:56 »
Y'now canna..sorry, ylide, I read your post and it just makes me sad. Why the hell would you want to own those?
 

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #35 on: 24/10/2004 11:43:25 »
I think a better question is why WOULDN'T you want to own them.  =)  

Seriously though, I have them partly because target shooting has a very zen-like quality and partly because I like the machismo of it.  If you've never fired a gun before, you couldn't possibly understand.  Let me clarify that I, like most gun owners in America, have never even pointed a gun at another human being.  I don't hunt, either.  But, when it comes right down to it, I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.  I don't know what gun laws are like in Australia, but unless you've grown up with guns and understand them, it's natural to be skittish of them.  

I own a .45 for home defense.  If someone comes into my residence with intentions on robbing or harming myself or my loved ones, I will not cower in fear. I will not call the police with hopes that they save me in time...I'll call them to let them know they have a body to pick up.  

My rifles, well, I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out.  It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.  Think of it as the gun version of Pascal's wager.  

Radeon summed it up pretty nicely:  there are a lot worse things out there than guns that are far more likely to kill you.  The assault rifles just look scary so they get more attention.  Even then, well over 90% of gun deaths in the US are from pistols or shotguns.

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #36 on: 24/10/2004 15:21:38 »
I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out. It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.

Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #37 on: 24/10/2004 17:08:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille


Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?




Texas, We are already set up with a civil government and police force seperate from the US, just in case of civil or devistating War on US soil.

  Personally There are only three things worth fighting for in the world..  Family, your land (not talking fighting a war for ***), your ideals and they all hold the same importance.


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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #38 on: 25/10/2004 00:48:32 »
Well, I think you've just confirmed my argument, Ylide. The mere fact that you have these guns, if a nasty situation arose, would lead to a more violent ending than if you didn't have them. I would (and have) eject unwanted people from my house without the need to shoot them. I'd stand between my family and any aggressor and I sure wouldn't shoot anybody over any ideals that I may hold dear.
I have used guns before, I just couldn't see any sense in continuing their use.
Basically, the gun laws in Australia were changed (tightened) after a shooting incident a few years ago. You need a licence and can't get a pistol, semi/automatic, pump action shotgun, any assault type gun unless you have a damn good reason.
 

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #39 on: 25/10/2004 01:13:00 »
by ideas I mean freedom.. Like why Iraq isn't all peaceful right now. It's not the States fault on that either, we just happen to be the ones doing the bully work while funds come in from Japan and the UK to help without getting their hands bloody with oil (little rant)

anyway..

  Lets say you knew a small group of ten to twenty men were busting into yours and other houses in your small town of one hundred or so people and taking families to a camp because you were.. ohh.. Jewish lets say.  Would a gun have been nice then?  Think a small town with some arms could have stopped them then organized a stand or went underground?

  The right to a gun in the States was something we were handed to protect us from the British and so families could protect themselves from Native Americans.

..

  I think you might be reading to much into this.  I have two pistols, both handed down to me by my grandfather and father and a 22 rifle I've had for 20 something years I used for target sport.  I've never killed a living thing with a gun, I shot the heck out of some cans and targets.

 I've caused more death with my car tires and small animals then anything else.

But if you came into my house and messed with my way of life yours would end... gun or not. period.


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Offline Ylide

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #40 on: 25/10/2004 01:15:08 »
>>>I would (and have) eject unwanted people from my house without the need to shoot them

You say that like I pop a cap in every person that overstays their welcome.  

So what happens if the person breaking into your house has a weapon?  Or what if there is more than one person coming in?  In urban America, these things are not unheard of.  Or riots...even in nice calm Denver we have rioting every few years over things like police brutality and sporting events (yes the latter is stupid, but it happens) that invariably result in looting, assaults, and property damage.    

>>>I sure wouldn't shoot anybody over any ideals that I may hold dear.

What if those ideals are the right of you and your family to be alive?

I respect your right to passive resistance, but if someone tries to harm me or my loved ones in the sanctity of my home, it's their a$$.  I am not a violent person and I don't walk around armed, but until I have children, my guns stay right where they are.  

>>>Basically, the gun laws in Australia were changed (tightened) after a shooting incident a few years ago.

I can't say that I like Australia's gun ownership laws.  Legislating blanket gun control because of an isolated incident is overreaction.  The black market will supply guns to criminals with the right cash.  Restricting honest citizens from owning them doesn't make much sense to me.  Isn't Australia the same country that censors web site content that is deemed "objectionable?"  Those are our first two constitutional amendments...speech and gun ownership.  Apparently our founders had different priorities than did the founders of Australia.  


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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #41 on: 25/10/2004 01:41:32 »
Ylide has a good point.

 It's like when the UK banned Kava Kava, a safe herb for relaxation, because of 10 cases of liver damage and one death brought about by lobbying by the makers of Valium and Xanax.  

Yet Acedamenaphen (pain killer) causes houdreds of thousands of liver problems a year and is left on the market.

  It's almost like people don't see their rights getting pulled out from under them.. same in the States.. that Patriot Act was a big blow to everyone.. but I guess we still have Kava Kava herb and guns.. ehh.

  Think I'll just go drive fast and forget.  There really aren't that many problems in my world.


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« Last Edit: 25/10/2004 01:42:58 by Raedon »

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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #42 on: 25/10/2004 02:46:35 »
The changing of gun laws because of an isolated incident may have been an overreaction, but more than one had occurred in the period before. Criminals, or anyone else, can still get access to illegal guns, but there are a lot less in our communities generally.

I didn't mean to infer that you "pop a cap in every person that overstays their welcome" but I laughed when I read it.

There is also no censorship over web sites. Maybe there would be if they could, but all you have to do is have your site hosted elsewhere. Also don't forget, we have a population of only 20 million spread over an area the same as the mainland US.

Maybe our respective settlers had different agendas, but the sort of stuff you are both talking about just would not happen here. You can walk any street, anywhere, anytime without being afraid of some loopy idiot wanting to end your life. Well, I can anyway, 'cause they wont have a gun and I'm 196 cms and 115 kgs.

Clearly, our respective views are formed by our experiences in life, upbringing, environment, family, etc, but Australia is just not that unsafe that you feel the need to own a gun. The people that do own them probably don't feel the same way as me because of their lifestyle choices.

Australia is a democracy and our rights to everything but gun ownership are very similar to the US.
« Last Edit: 25/10/2004 03:01:48 by roberth »
 

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #43 on: 25/10/2004 04:04:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by roberth

 You can walk any street, anywhere, anytime without being afraid of some loopy idiot wanting to end your life. Well, I can anyway, 'cause they wont have a gun and I'm 196 cms and 115 kgs.






Actually I walk a mile every night at 9pm before the news.  I think you are generalizing the States as, "Tha Ghetto" when that just isn't so.  I, personally, have never seen Compton or a drive by. lol

  Where I live there have only been 8 murders this year and only 5 of those involved a gun and they ALL involved drugs.  but there have been worse years and better years.


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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #44 on: 25/10/2004 04:44:04 »
Hunting is a way of life where I am.  It's a sport that a father teaches his son and daughter in Texas.  It's one of those things that make a family what it is.  A father doesn't just hand a gun to a kid and tell him to go flinging it around at anything that moves.  Before I was EVER handed a gun I was taught gun safety from like 6-10 or so with a Pellet rifle.  When I actually got the honor of shooting a live round at a practice range I had a strong respect for it as an instument of survival and sport.

  I know you see all those action movies or old westerns where people are just flailing around pistals, shooting them into the air but that isn't how it is for a middle class family that sport hunts.

 
I see guns as sport, be it hunting or target practice.  I keep a pistol, and I keep it loaded at my house.  I don't have any kids or a wife though.. just me.  If I had a kid or wife or.. crazy girlfriend I'd lock it up unloaded and forget about it.




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Offline roberth

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #45 on: 25/10/2004 04:56:08 »
I wasn't meaning to generalise. We were chatting about guns when you guys bought up a couple of scenarios. I'm sure in most places the US is as safe as here (apart from the guns...hehe).
And I really like your car, too.

You snuck a post in before I could finish this one. You have a loaded pistol in your house? Not locked up? Why?
« Last Edit: 25/10/2004 05:01:08 by roberth »
 

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Offline Raedon

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #46 on: 25/10/2004 05:28:39 »
So if anyone touches my car I can pop a cap in their ass.. ;)

Seriously, because it's quite safe that way with the safety on and it isn't cocked.  When I throw a party or have anyone over that I don't know I put it in my gun safe.

 



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Offline petersayles

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #47 on: 19/09/2005 21:04:10 »
Americans love guns mostly out of tradition I think. But there is no doubt we are a gun crazy nation.  Many people own guns because they think they need to protect their homes from criminals. Others because they don't trust the government and think they need a gun for when the revolution comes.
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Offline Simmer

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #48 on: 20/09/2005 22:02:17 »
Secretly I think a lot of people love guns, shooting stuff is fun and carrying a gun makes you feel pretty tough and dangerous.  The problem is other people's guns - they cancel out the toughness and leave only the danger!

But I don't think it is possible to ban them in the US - apart from political considerations there are so many available and so many would be hidden away by otherwise respectable citizens that the only people effectively disarmed for a hundred years would be the most law-abiding.
 

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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #49 on: 21/09/2005 02:08:45 »
Well, I am pretty well convinced that many of my fellow americans are nutcases. If I had not believed it fervently already, this thread would have convinced me of the fact.

The silly thing about those who purchase automatic weapons to protect themselves against criminals is that you can't carry around an AK47 to protect yourself. What good does it do you? Then when you go on vacation and some druggie busts into your house he walks away with a stolen AK and he can shoot whoever he wants whenever he wants. Criminals get to choose the time and place. You do not, so try walking around 24/7 with a loaded gun in your hand. It's asinine.
Maybe I will change my tune someday after I am murdered, right? Still, I hardly feel that I would be willing to blow away a criminal myself, so what would be the point of having a weapon? WIth my luck, one of my daughter's friends would find it and put a hole through his own head, and I would have the remaining thirty odd years of my life to regret it.

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