Why aren't guns banned in the USA?

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #50 on: 21/09/2005 12:17:55 »
I wonder if gun sales will increase after Katrina?. Will people start to worry about hordes of dispossed roaming their streets after another disaster? If the government can't help the refugees in their own land then they will help themselves.

pass the ammo!







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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #51 on: 21/09/2005 19:13:32 »
I guess I will offer my two cents as well. American (and Canada) started with the extreme need for self-defense. Indian wars started within months of almost every new settlement. The Indians were constantly fighting with each other for land, slaves, insults, and loot. They did the friendly thing and invited the Europeans to join in.

An outgrowth of these wars was the concept of depending on yourself for your self-defense until the government could arrive to help. We called it the first line of defense. This concept has carried to the present day. Our law enforcement is not set up to offer the highest level of protection to its citizens. You must be prepared to defend yourself until help can arrive.

When the fourth airplane was hijacked, the hijackers were depending on the current doctrine of going along with a hijacking and getting the hijackers after the flight was again safely on the ground. A few made cell phone calls (against the regulations, but Americans often ignore stupid regulations) and found out about the other three hijackings. At that point they took matters into their own hands, over powered 3 hijackers and broke into the cockpit just as the 4th hijacker dove the plain into the ground - mission unaccomplished.

So back to guns. We have trial by jury i.e. our own peers decide whether to apply the law or, on rare instances to ignore the law. So some years ago, a guy is mugged on a subway. The criminals did not have a gun, but they had a long screwdriver with a sharpened end that could easily be a murder weapon. He shot them up, some of them with a vengeance after they were down and hurting. The jury convicted him for illegally having a gun; he was acquitted for shooting his attackers.

Juries acquit self-defense if you are truly an innocent. Gang wars don't get such a break. Most of the time, crimes are prevented when the victim simply shows he is armed. There are some politically incorrect statistics that show right to carry states have a lower crime rate for crimes committed with a weapon. You don't hold up a restaurant when it is likely 10% of the customers are carrying.

Likewise breaking into a house when people are sleeping inside is very risky. Personally, I have a 12-gauge shotgun for such a situation.

You Europeans have had it easy. Part of it has been that criminals haven't needed weapons to commit crimes. Part of it is that being nice has been so much a part of your culture. Now that the drug gangs are moving into Europe, and terrorists are surfacing, things may change a little if the criminals are more willing to use violence.

If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat, and learn how to use it. It is far more lethal than a knife: breaks bones, smashes skulls, ...

David
« Last Edit: 21/09/2005 19:20:35 by David Sparkman »
David

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Offline Simmer

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #52 on: 21/09/2005 22:24:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by David Sparkman


If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat, and learn how to use it. It is far more lethal than a knife: breaks bones, smashes skulls, ...

David




A cricket bat would be equally effective and offers the choice of "stun" and "kill" (flat or edge).  [:D]
 

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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #53 on: 21/09/2005 22:49:40 »
"Shawn of the Dead" was at least a bit funny with the cricket bat thing and the zombies.
I would rather not do any homicidal whacking or stomping with real people however, it's too grotesque. Better to give than receive, maybe. Better to avoid, definitely.

chris wiegard
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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #54 on: 22/09/2005 05:21:28 »
The main value of a weapon is deterance, but for that the aggressor needs to believe you know how to use it. But once the criminal decides to have a go at you, you don't stop until he can't hurt you anymore, not just when he pretends to give up. Don't ever loose your life trusting a criminal to keep his word.

David
David

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Offline Corbeille

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #55 on: 22/09/2005 12:14:11 »
If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat,

got one!

and a nunchaka!






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Offline NLJB

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #56 on: 23/09/2005 22:33:54 »
It is called the constitution and yes we do have under the 2nd amendment the right to bear arms. The west (execpt most of CA), the south, and the North East (where I live and where I from) have VERY differnt cultures, in the West it is part of the culture, In my opinion America does not have the best governmental system: It was designed so that everything was checked and balanced: which is dysfunctinal (I'm not saying we should turn communist I'm saying the UK and other Euroean governments have the better idea (Exept for all the damn smoking) America would indeed be a safer place by banning guns, however with Presidents like the loathsome, hated, atrocious Bust: That's not likely to happen: I HATE BEING FRIGGIN AMERICAN- Peace

NLJB
-wink |wi ng k| verb [ intrans. ] close and open one eye quickly, typically to indicate that something is a joke or a secret or as a signal of affection or greeting : he winked at Nicole as he passed. ( wink at) pretend not to notice (something bad or illegal) : the authorities winked at their illegal trade. (of a bright object or a light) shine or flash intermittently. noun an act of closing and opening one eye quickly, typically as a signal : Barney gave him a knowing wink- THE DICTIONARY

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Offline NLJB

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #57 on: 23/09/2005 22:36:31 »
By CA I mean California

NLJB
-wink |wi ng k| verb [ intrans. ] close and open one eye quickly, typically to indicate that something is a joke or a secret or as a signal of affection or greeting : he winked at Nicole as he passed. ( wink at) pretend not to notice (something bad or illegal) : the authorities winked at their illegal trade. (of a bright object or a light) shine or flash intermittently. noun an act of closing and opening one eye quickly, typically as a signal : Barney gave him a knowing wink- THE DICTIONARY

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Offline NLJB

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #58 on: 23/09/2005 22:37:27 »
*Bush DAMN YOU TYPOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ARG

NLJB
-wink |wi ng k| verb [ intrans. ] close and open one eye quickly, typically to indicate that something is a joke or a secret or as a signal of affection or greeting : he winked at Nicole as he passed. ( wink at) pretend not to notice (something bad or illegal) : the authorities winked at their illegal trade. (of a bright object or a light) shine or flash intermittently. noun an act of closing and opening one eye quickly, typically as a signal : Barney gave him a knowing wink- THE DICTIONARY

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sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #59 on: 03/10/2005 12:01:01 »
there seem too be some critisim of the uk for the reactionary way we banned guns but do you know why because a couple of years ago a guy who had his neighbors fill out the application forms so he could own rifles shotguns and pistols walked into a school gyn about twenty miles from where i sit now and proceeded to kill a dozen children thier teacher and himself all in under five minutes this was the primary school in dunblane and thomas hamilton the killer was a respected if abit aloof member of the communitty who managed to get several nieghbours to say he was a well balanced man and no threat back then our gun laws were far more stringent than americas and it still wasnt enough if you are a hunter you need a rifle but nobody ever needs pistols or shotguns

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drkev

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #60 on: 14/10/2005 12:53:38 »
Prohibition does not prevent something from being available to the criminal element. Gun crime it he UK has risen since the introduction of the ban on handguns.

Amnesties are just political knee jerk reactions to appease the general public.

All prohibition has done is remove guns from the hands of safe and responsible gun owners. Are criminals really going to hand in their guns? No they're not.

I like guns, I like shooting. Some people equate this with "I like killing people" but this isn't the case.

I am ex military and used to compete regularly in small arms competitions.

Many prohibited things are still used: drugs, driving without a licence etc makign something illegal does not make it go away. Dunblane was a very sad event and I still cry today when I hear about it on the television. Bowling for Columbine had some very interesting statistics.

Thousands or people are killed each year in the USA by guns. Only a handfull in any other country.

South Africa has horrific gun crime and they are bringing in tighter controls.

If something is legal then the government have some element of control over it.

We are now in a situation in the UK where 12 year old kids can pull a gun on you and "smoke you". There was a documentary called "Britain's toughest towns" and it showcased Manchester.

Gun crime is on the increase despite prohibtion. Law abiding gun owners do not use their guns to kill people. Criminals who have the guns illegally in the first place do.

We can thank Hollywood for the gun crime as the movies glorify violence and guns. Kids see their favourite characters using guns and they see someone getting shot and it's no big deal. But have you ever seen an actual gunshot wound? I have and it's not nice. They do not see the real effect of shooting someone on a film. They do not see the repurcussions.

Guns give someone a feeling of power and with power comes responsibility (thank you Spiderman for that!)

Look at the toubles in Northern Ireland with guns. Horrific violence daily so this seems to suggest that if the guns weren't there then there wouldn't be as many problems???? Except for pipe bombs etc

Prohibition doesn't work but strict control and proper education does.

Americans are a very violent country. They have a violent nature. They are bullies. They want something they take it. They don't like something they shoot it. Recent events in Iraq prove this without question.

Bush just wants to blow the $hit out of things and wanted a big war in his lifetime that he could brag about to his Daddy.



Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

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sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #61 on: 17/10/2005 11:40:06 »
thanks drkev you kind of made me think and i retract my former statement give everybody guns pistols shotguns and full auto but then as chris rock says charge a thousand per bullet and see how the percentages fall. As he says "id pop a cap in you ass......if i could afford it"

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Offline i_have_no_idea

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #62 on: 19/10/2005 00:38:51 »
Would any of you europeans want to own a gun? Im glad we can own guns here.
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas." -Joseph Stalin

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #63 on: 20/10/2005 00:53:41 »
"Would any of you europeans want to own a gun?"

You may as well ask "Would any of you want to keep a nuclear reactor in your shed" or "Would any of you want to keep a toxic waste site in your back garden" or "Would any of you like to learn to juggle razor wire" or ...

The answer is No, thanks.


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Offline i_have_no_idea

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #64 on: 23/10/2005 20:26:12 »
I wouldnt mind owning a nuclear reactor in my shed.
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas." -Joseph Stalin

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Offline neilep

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #65 on: 23/10/2005 21:38:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea

I wouldnt mind owning a nuclear reactor in my shed.



LOL !!...I think I've got one lying around somewhere, if I find it I'll send it to you with love from the UK [;)]

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drkev

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #66 on: 25/10/2005 13:05:22 »
The difference between us Europeans as you put it (which I find quite offensive as I am British not European. It's like saying Americans are Canadians or vice versa) is that we do not believe that we are ENTITLED to carry a gun.

Nobody can escape the fact that it is not appropriate for anybody to have an M16 or AK74 in their house. Yes that is correct, the gun is called and AK74, the AK47 was a cheap American copy of the 74.

However, the Americans feel that it is their constitutional right to have an automatic weapon. They feel that god gave them the right to carry a handgun.

They argue that the government tries to interfere with their lives and that nobody should be able to tell them what to do.

Now that I am a lawyer (well nearly I qualify in June) it is obvious to me that we need some element of control from the government otherwise there would be bedlam. We need to strike a balance though.

This is the difference, just because you have a right to have something it doesn't mean you should. Most people only have a gun because everyone else has one.

The police are currently processing my application for a gun. I have applied for a hunting rifle to go deer stalking. However this has a specific purpose.

I do not see the need for a semi automatic weapon or a fully automatic weapon.

The fact is that you do not NEED a gun. You WANT a gun. I don't NEED a car but I have got one because I can have one. I feel it is the same with guns. In the USA people can have a gun so they do. They feel they are entitled to it and nobody can take it away.

Well you ask the parent of anyone who has been murdered with a handgun wether they think you should have it.

Why do you need it anyway? Self defence? Well why is it that Brits do not feel the need to have a gun to defend ourselves? We are not even allowed tazers, pepper spray, batons or anything else to defend ourselves.

You only need a gun to defend yourself because every other person in the country has one and criminals can pick them up at the bloody Kwik 'E' Mart.

America is a disgraceful country of violence and crime. That is not to say I do not like the American people because I do and I do not stereotype but look at the numbers of people killed with guns each year compared to every other country. Millions are killed each year in the USA compared to less than 200 in Canada and 400 in Australia.

Do you know why guns are your constitutional right? So that the white man can "defend" himself against the "evil" black man. Look really closely at the law. It is about the whites persecuting the blacks and then when they killed them all they turned on each other. Watch bowling for columbine it really does open your eyes.

My dissertation is going to be on another great American institution - Capital Punishment. Boy have I done some extensive research and uncovered some nasty things about that country.

Live long and Love life

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Offline i_have_no_idea

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #67 on: 25/10/2005 21:18:06 »
My friends got a magazine with gatling guns for only $400.


"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas." -Joseph Stalin

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another_someone

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #68 on: 27/10/2005 01:01:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by drkev

The difference between us Europeans as you put it (which I find quite offensive as I am British not European. It's like saying Americans are Canadians or vice versa) is that we do not believe that we are ENTITLED to carry a gun.



I am English (the Scots decided they don't want to be British any more, so I am English, as distinct from Scottish), but I am also European.  I have no problem with that.

The difference with the Americans is that the USA has hijacked the word American; no single nation has hijacked the word European, and there is no reason why the term should be used to describe a Frenchman, or a Scandinavian, or a Greek, but not an Englishman.

quote:

Nobody can escape the fact that it is not appropriate for anybody to have an M16 or AK74 in their house. Yes that is correct, the gun is called and AK74, the AK47 was a cheap American copy of the 74.



Although I am no expert on gins, I think it well established that the AK47 is just that, and it is so because it nominally went into production in 1947.  The AK74 is a weapon that was brought in to replace the AK47 around 1974.

quote:

However, the Americans feel that it is their constitutional right to have an automatic weapon. They feel that god gave them the right to carry a handgun.

They argue that the government tries to interfere with their lives and that nobody should be able to tell them what to do.

Now that I am a lawyer (well nearly I qualify in June) it is obvious to me that we need some element of control from the government otherwise there would be bedlam. We need to strike a balance though.



While what you say about striking a balance is indeed correct, but where and how that balance is struck is a very different matter.

The USA is by no means the only country with high gun ownership, but as has often been pointed out, the high rate of gun ownership in Switzerland does not lead to high levels of gun crime.  Conversely, in this country, gun crime has rocketed since hand guns were outlawed.

In many cases, the better way to deal with such matters it to motivate people to be properly trained in safety than to outlaw these things outright.  Outlawing something often does little more than force it underground, and thus remove whatever hope you might have had for controlling the legal use of such things.

quote:

This is the difference, just because you have a right to have something it doesn't mean you should. Most people only have a gun because everyone else has one.

The police are currently processing my application for a gun. I have applied for a hunting rifle to go deer stalking. However this has a specific purpose.

I do not see the need for a semi automatic weapon or a fully automatic weapon.



And can you tell us why you should have a right to hunt deer?  You can go to the supermarket and buy venison.

I understand that you may enjoy hunting deer, but you have no more a God given right to hunt deer than Americans have to own guns.

If an American may wish to go down to his local gun club to use an AK47, and enjoys doing so, why is this different than your taking your hunting rifle out to stalk deer?

quote:

The fact is that you do not NEED a gun. You WANT a gun. I don't NEED a car but I have got one because I can have one. I feel it is the same with guns. In the USA people can have a gun so they do. They feel they are entitled to it and nobody can take it away.

Well you ask the parent of anyone who has been murdered with a handgun wether they think you should have it.



The fact is that more children are killed, and in recent decades (both during the years hand guns were legally owned, and in the years since) far more children in this country (and I imagine in the USA) have been killed by cars than by any form of firearm.

quote:

America is a disgraceful country of violence and crime. That is not to say I do not like the American people because I do and I do not stereotype but look at the numbers of people killed with guns each year compared to every other country. Millions are killed each year in the USA compared to less than 200 in Canada and 400 in Australia.



Millions?

But as you say, the reality is that in the USA, the problem is far broader than merely the issue of gun ownership, it is about crime and violence in general.  The USA has the highest percentage of persons in its jails of any developed nation, only exceeded by the likes of China; and it similarly is different to Europe in still retaining the death penalty.  Violence permeates the society as much at the institutional level as it does at the individual level.

Interestingly, while the rate of homicide from firearms in Switzerland is comparable to that in Canada (which is about one eighth that of the USA), the rate of suicide by the use of guns is scarcely different in the two countries (and even in the USA, there are more suicides from gun use than homicides).  It seems that there is probably a higher correlation between gun ownership and suicides by the use of guns than there is between gun ownership and homicides by the use of guns.  Would those people who use a gun to commit suicide have committed suicide by another means if the guns had not been available - that is an interesting question.

The problem we have is not that the Americans may own guns, but that they have a love affair with the gun, and as with all such all consuming passions, it is the passion that is destructive, not the object of desire itself.

quote:

Do you know why guns are your constitutional right? So that the white man can "defend" himself against the "evil" black man. Look really closely at the law. It is about the whites persecuting the blacks and then when they killed them all they turned on each other. Watch bowling for columbine it really does open your eyes.



Again, this is incorrect.  The reason the American has the constitutional right to carry arms is to shoot "evil" Brits.  It was a byproduct of raising a popular militia army for the anti-colonial revolution, and is similar in nature to the Swiss or Israeli Army, except that the USA no longer has a popular militia army, and there is no longer the original purpose for that constitutional right to be there.  In a similar fashion, in medieval times, the English yeoman was required to have regular archery practice, and thus one may assume he also had an obligation to own bows and arrows.  The problem with the Americans is that while they retained the right to bear arms, they never had the obligation to regularly train in the appropriate use of arms.  The Swiss and Israeli's, when the give their population guns, they also give them training in how to use (and not to use) them.  True, for other reasons, Israeli law and order has started to break down of recent years, but that just goes to show that crime is not a consequence of gun ownership, but a product of public faith in the institution of the law.


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Offline simeonie

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #69 on: 27/10/2005 20:19:56 »
Hmmm in America are you allowed to just carry guns around the street or must they stay in your home?

I have quite a few air guns which are very powerfull. My rifle goes right through a pretty solid wooden door and leaves a nice big hole in the back, this 'weapon' would deffinetly leave a mess of your face. I think that if proper guns are illegal as much as I enjoy them so should air guns. Also I have a bow, which is outragously powerful, when I mean power I mean power. It would like go right through, they are deadly weapons even more so that a 9mm gun I think.

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Offline i_have_no_idea

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #70 on: 27/10/2005 22:43:19 »
In america you cant just go around with your AK-47 you have to first be able to own a gun then keep it locked up in a gun case or if its in your car you arnt alowd to be able to get at it (has to be in the trunk or something).  Although if you get a permit to cary a consealed weapon then yes you are but that would be like a hand gun.
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas." -Joseph Stalin

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Offline christiansturt

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #71 on: 15/09/2006 14:35:03 »
What I will never understand is why a country that is so lax on Gun ownership has so strict alcohol laws  Not being able to drink until you are 21 is just stupid (not to mention having to hide it in public) and must lead to more drug problems.   The average 18 year old in the UK goes out and drinks too much, and has a good time. At least they get the hangover in the morning to remind them to moderate their usage next time! Where as the average American might as well do drugs rather than beer as they have less after effects, and are easier to conceal.


And Im English, not British or European.  Europe is a place over the English Channel full of Cheese eating, garlic smelling surrender monkeys. (-:



quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea

In america you cant just go around with your AK-47 you have to first be able to own a gun then keep it locked up in a gun case or if its in your car you arnt alowd to be able to get at it (has to be in the trunk or something).  Although if you get a permit to cary a consealed weapon then yes you are but that would be like a hand gun.

 

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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #72 on: 15/09/2006 17:38:58 »
I take it you don't like the French then

I've always wanted to own a gun, I'm into the outdoor shooting hobby. I've been to archery with my cousin a few times and have had a great time. I would never turn a weapon with such a destructive force on a living soul, but the chance to be able to go out into a field and shoot targets, sounds like fun to me.

I understand the issues people have when it comes to guns. I have been in many debates on other forums about guns in the uk, should the police carry guns, would it help, would it makes things worse!!?? Well to be honest I would prefer the police to be carrying guns, I know I would feel safer.

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #73 on: 15/09/2006 18:11:45 »
Shoot!(no gun, I mean pun intended)If they outlawed guns...what would the criminals do here...I mean butter knives can hardly do damage to a flower...hehe

There is darts...hmmm, maybe we can take up sleeping potions or just plain poison it might be much more fun for the criminals to really hit a moving target..hehe  There would be alot of police without jobs if the criminals weren't using guns...?

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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #74 on: 15/09/2006 18:38:45 »
That would be pretty cool if you accidentally got shot in the arse by a sleepy dart.......work would say why didn't you show up to work, well you see I was sleeping because the police shot me

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #75 on: 15/09/2006 19:40:40 »
LOL LOL!!

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Offline Andy28

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #76 on: 21/09/2006 21:20:20 »
Look at the columbine high school massacre and several other similar incidents. They were commited by kids who had been given detention and other stupid reasons. America is totally foolish to allow people to have guns. The only people who should be legally armed are the police in all countries.
 

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another_someone

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #77 on: 22/09/2006 04:29:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Look at the columbine high school massacre and several other similar incidents. They were commited by kids who had been given detention and other stupid reasons. America is totally foolish to allow people to have guns. The only people who should be legally armed are the police in all countries.



And what about pest controllers, farmers, sportsmen, etc.

There is a large gap between allowing everyone to have a gun, and allowing no-one to have a gun.  Why should either extreme be the right position to take?



George

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #78 on: 22/09/2006 05:43:17 »
I like that George!  So true!  It is not the guns, but the person who has one...maybe they should regulate who would have them and I thought of an idea, but can't post it...hmmm, I am going to research patents on this idea...sorry

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Offline Andy28

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #79 on: 25/09/2006 16:56:44 »
Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.
 

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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #80 on: 25/09/2006 17:13:16 »
I hate hunting but I don't mind pest control to a certain degree. One of the problems I have with it is when they turn it into a sport, it's not a fun day out, it's just cruel.

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #81 on: 25/09/2006 20:58:39 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.



Hi Andy - just curious, are you a vegetarian?  I don't believe in going out and shooting animals for the hell of it.  But I come from a family of hunters.  Every year, our freezers are full of venison.  And the freezers of many struggling families are full as well. I have alot of guns in my house.  So many, I've lost count.  Both of my children have guns. Every one of them are in a fireproof vault. I take a good deal of criticism from people that weren't brought up around guns and hunting.  That's ok, everyones entitled to their opinions. We are not a bunch of redneck, hillbilly rejects from from the movie Deliverance. We are law abiding citizens.  Our guns are used strictly for hunting.  Fortunately, we've never had to use them for self defense.  But I would if I had to.

I have also been the victim of a shooting.  Guns do not scare me.  Ignorant people with guns do.  I don't want guns banned in the USA, but I do wish gun laws were regulated better.

Carolyn
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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #82 on: 25/09/2006 21:15:54 »
See, now that's what I like. A responsible person who respects the power of such weapons. Carolyn, people like you and your family are the type of people I feel fine and safe to have guns. But yes, ignorant people with guns are scary

Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against. The type of, well "so called hunters" who chase after a fox whith a pack of dogs, well to me they are scum. I understand the damage a fox can cause on a farm, but chasing the poor creature like that I feel is wrong.



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Offline Carolyn

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #83 on: 25/09/2006 21:31:23 »
Thank you Dan.  I think everyone that owns a gun should have to take a course on how to use it.  I agree, those types of hunters are scum.

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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #84 on: 25/09/2006 22:07:28 »
No worries hun. I think a course is a good idea. However, I think it fine for hunters to own a gun, but feel there should be a line drawn as to who else can own one outside of those circumstances.

Mind you though, I would never want to come across anyone like from Deliverance, I don't want to squeal like a pig that's for sure [;)]

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #85 on: 26/09/2006 03:24:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.



What do you mean by 'animals have just as much right'?

You are all for killing humans who do not obey the law, and yet which animal (aside from domesticated one's) actually abide by human laws?

I actually find greater moral dilemma about the farming of animals for food than the hunting of animals.  Ofcourse, farmed animals, for the most part, would not even be allowed to be born if it was not for their being a market for the carcases, but they do grow up trusting the humans around them, and that trust may be regarded in some ways as being betrayed when they are sent for slaughter.

By comparison, hunting a species that shares no trust with humans, and is not a part of human society (just as any predatory animals would without compunction hunt a human), I find natural and without any breach of trust.

No, I do not hunt, and aside from once doing some clay pigeon shooting, have not used a firearm.  Then again, the whole problem with hunting, as against farming, is that when human populations exceed a certain density, and wildlife reduces to below a certain density, it is not a sustainable source of food, hence the necessity to farm for food.  This is not a moral question but a pragmatic one.  In the south-east of England, these conditions have long held dominance, so there is very little practical value in hunting as a primary source of food in our part of the world.



George
« Last Edit: 26/09/2006 03:31:16 by another_someone »

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #86 on: 26/09/2006 03:42:11 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mirage
I hate hunting but I don't mind pest control to a certain degree. One of the problems I have with it is when they turn it into a sport, it's not a fun day out, it's just cruel.



Is this attitude also towards fishing, which is one of the more popular sports in this country, or just a prejudice against fox hunting?

I don't like hunting for sport (although there must always be a gap between what I personally dislike, and what I am willing to prohibit others from doing otherwise we would live under a tyranny of one persons moral superiority over everybody else), but I have absolutely nothing against someone who is hunting for a practical purpose then finding some way of turning that necessity into a sport.  Why should people have to to unnecessarily miserable just because you think it is not proper for them to enjoy what they are doing?

The issue is whether the hunt has a practical necessity or not?

There are many places where natural populations of animals (not only foxes, but in some parts of the world, even elephants, or many other wild life) must be culled.  Clearly, one would wish the people who undertake that job to take pride in the skill by which they do the job and the moment they take pride in that skill, it becomes a sport.  But, more pertinently, in many impoverished parts of the world, selling hunting licences can bring in valuable revenue that might be used to better look after the remaining wildlife in the area (this is a controversial issue because of the association with the uncontrolled hunting of the past, but it does have good practical sense).

As I say, if one is talking about hunting for sport, then I agree with you, but if we are talking about making a necessary hunt into a sport, then I totally disagree with you.



George
« Last Edit: 26/09/2006 04:25:47 by another_someone »

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #87 on: 26/09/2006 03:47:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mirage
No worries hun. I think a course is a good idea. However, I think it fine for hunters to own a gun, but feel there should be a line drawn as to who else can own one outside of those circumstances.



I actually see no problem is using guns for sport we still have an Olympic shooting team, it is just that they are not allowed to train in this country (and we had to suspend our gun laws to allow the commonwealth sports to come here, and no doubt those same laws will be suspended when the Olympics come here is that not hypocrisy for you?).

But as people have said, that does not mean uncontrolled owning of guns.  The reality is that gun crime has rocketed since the total prohibition on most gun ownership in this country, and while I am not suggesting it was a direct consequence of that legislation, what is clear is that the legislation hurt a lot of people who were responsibly enjoying the use of their guns in controlled environments, and did nothing to actually protect us from the illegal use of guns.



George

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Offline Mirage

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #88 on: 26/09/2006 17:02:55 »
Ahh, I didn't actually think about fishing. But then there is a difference with fishing. I have no problem with it if you are going to eat the thing, but if it's just to catch the biggest one you can and then mount it, then that I do not like.



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Offline Andy28

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #89 on: 26/09/2006 17:07:15 »
You know what i hate most? When you see those snobby gits from the royal family driving around in their land rovers and shooting birds, etc. I once read in the paper that a fox hunter fell off his horse and the horse crushed him to death. Now thats justice!
 

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #90 on: 26/09/2006 18:16:06 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

You know what i hate most? When you see those snobby gits from the royal family driving around in their land rovers and shooting birds, etc. I once read in the paper that a fox hunter fell off his horse and the horse crushed him to death. Now thats justice!



So this has nothing to do with moral principle as such, and more to do with class hatred?



George

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #91 on: 27/09/2006 07:13:27 »
Wow!  Carolyn, I have to agree with you...plus there are hunters with bows and arrows, knives are used, all kinds of different weapons are used, but then there are the criminals who uses heavy objects such as household items, bats, and crazy stuff to kill people with...it is not the weapon itself as murder is in the heart already....

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Offline Infamous

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #92 on: 22/03/2007 02:01:39 »
How come guns aren't banned in the USA like in the UK or the majority(all?) of europe?
To defend ourselves from all those Europeans.
Quote from: qpan
Surely the US would be a safer place if guns were outlawed?

Only if we could also outlaw Europeans.....................Infy
Tolstoy once wrote; "Men only learn when they've had to suffer for it", This raises the question; 'How much do we want to learn?'

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Offline Boxcar

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #93 on: 19/07/2007 00:54:30 »
Em, kind of off topic but it's been kind of discussed and I saw it in the random thing and became interested

"Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against"
Maybe lost in the woods or something, we all need to survive. I think humans have come a looonng way since the time when hunting an animal was a necessity for survival but since then that necessity has definitely been eradicated. At least in the western societies with a super market with yummy veggie alternatives on nearly every corner. If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.


"I agree, those types of hunters are scum"

I've been called on saying the "F word" here do I'll hold my tongue for a second.
You go out and kill animals as a means of survival. I think if you have the internet you must at least live somewhere not all that remote. If that's not true my sincerest apologies. As I said, humans have way come past the stage where we need meat to survive. Einstein said something like the only way for the human race to advance is to adopt a veggie diet. I didn't use quote marks because I don't know the exact words but it's something along those lines and I totally agree with him.

I'm kind of under the impression that the gun problem in the US is down to like communities been torn apart like. I mean like, you watch the news and it's someone getting shot down the road from you so you get all worked up and look at everyone funny but don't pay any attention the man who tapped you on the shoulder to let you know that you dropped your phone or something like that. We tend to overlook how the majority of humanity is nice and the saps stand out. If we put effort into building our communities I really doubt there would be trouble in them and if there was, well they'd probably have the ability to work out the problem together.
Gun crime has kind of reared it's ugly head in North Dublin and it's mainly over drugs and stuff. I think that could be a lot of gun crime actually. I suppose the solution is to stop buying drugs. I told a group of friends the other day, to stop buying drugs because it's indirectly putting money into the pockets of some scumbag from Clondalkin who'd gladly shoot someone's kneecaps off for some money but I don't think they payed attention  [:(]



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Offline kdlynn

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #94 on: 19/07/2007 00:59:03 »
here's the main problem i see... if you tell the people that guns are now illegal and could you please turn them in to the government, who is actually going to turn them in? the criminals? i don't think so. only the people who had guns with no intention of shooting them at someone unless they were shot at...

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Offline Karen W.

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #95 on: 19/07/2007 01:22:36 »
I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned even in the face of many of my family members being shot to death as well as my best friend from High School! It wasn't the gun but the person who was allowed to get hold of it!There need to be stricter tighter rules and regulations and that kind of thing. I honestly do not know how I feel about automatic weapons they are generally not made for hunting.. someone please correct me if I am wrong! They seem more for harming or killing humans..I could be wrong though..

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #96 on: 19/07/2007 01:38:15 »
here's the main problem i see... if you tell the people that guns are now illegal and could you please turn them in to the government, who is actually going to turn them in? the criminals? i don't think so. only the people who had guns with no intention of shooting them at someone unless they were shot at...

We've don it here, and that is exactly what happened.

We had a problem where a lone licensed gunman shot a few children (in fact there is good reason to suppose that the licensing regime had been inappropriately applied and the guy should never have had a licence to hold a gun).  The media then went on a campaign that nobody should be allowed to posses a handgun, not even Olympic target shooters.  The Government brought in a law to that effect.  Since then, we have had no legally owned handguns (except with the police or military), but gun crime has sky-rocketed.

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Offline kdlynn

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #97 on: 19/07/2007 01:40:09 »
yes because the criminals know that nobody else has a gun and can't defend themselves!

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another_someone

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #98 on: 19/07/2007 01:41:49 »
Gun crime has kind of reared it's ugly head in North Dublin and it's mainly over drugs and stuff. I think that could be a lot of gun crime actually. I suppose the solution is to stop buying drugs. I told a group of friends the other day, to stop buying drugs because it's indirectly putting money into the pockets of some scumbag from Clondalkin who'd gladly shoot someone's kneecaps off for some money but I don't think they payed attention  [:(]

The fact is, whether you or I like it, people always have, and always will take drugs.

The way to solve this problem is to break the criminal monopoly on drugs, and make it legal (this is not the same as making it socially desirable - but other drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco are legal).

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Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
« Reply #99 on: 19/07/2007 01:47:14 »
yes because the criminals know that nobody else has a gun and can't defend themselves!

Actually, that is not really the main problem at all.

The major part of gun crime is between criminal gangs who habitually use guns, and now feel they need to arm themselves because the opposition is armed, both to defend themselves, and because they treat it like a fashion item.

I don't know that there has been any marked increase in armed robberies in that time (remember that even when handguns were legal in this country, they were rare, and had to be stored securely and unloaded, so would not effectively be used to protect one's self or one's property).  The major increase in gun crime has been of deliberate killings, often of people within the criminal community of others within their community, but also often catching other family members of that community or people killed in a mistaken identity or as bystanders.