Poll

Obama or Clinton??

Obama
6 (60%)
Clinton
1 (10%)
Not Decided
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Obama or Clinton??

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Offline Seany

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Obama or Clinton??
« on: 31/03/2008 14:07:09 »
They say that when you die, your life flashes in front of you. Make it worth watching!


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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #1 on: 31/03/2008 20:03:25 »
I quite like the idea of making them fight for it.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #2 on: 31/03/2008 20:17:56 »
LOL..

I love Obama [;D]

Clinton is like marmite apparently.
Either love it or hate it.
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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #3 on: 31/03/2008 21:51:43 »
I like both of the candidates but am leaning towards Clinton!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #4 on: 31/03/2008 21:53:04 »
Can you add an undecided poll vote and remove my vote for hillary till I am sure who I want as I said I am leaning not decided yet!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #5 on: 31/03/2008 22:04:32 »
How do I remove your vote for hillary..
I don't think I have that option otherwise I could delete other people's vote so that it looks like everyone votes for my side!
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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #6 on: 31/03/2008 22:28:30 »
I like both of the candidates but am leaning towards Clinton!
How do I remove your vote for hillary..
I don't think I have that option otherwise I could delete other people's vote so that it looks like everyone votes for my side!
I tried to remove it but no luck... we would have to clear it and start over so thats no good.. anyway I will pretend its in undecided and o in Hillary yet!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #7 on: 31/03/2008 22:33:13 »
[;D] LOL
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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #8 on: 31/03/2008 23:18:12 »
Obama is more like John F. Kennedy than any politician I have ever seen.
 
Kennedy took us into space

He broke the back of the Mafia and it has never really recovered.

He instituted the Peace Corp, the first governmentally sponsored volunteer program and, most importantly,

He put into motion the death of the abomination of segregation in this country, which, after his death, Lyndon Johnson completed codifying into law.

He inspired and lead. He never gave specifics during his campaign. But when he spoke from the heart, he followed through. Obama has the same qualities.

Before Kennedy, it was Roosevelt. That was 30 years between the beginnings of great presidencies. It has been too long since the 60's. It is time for a leader who is a visionary.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #9 on: 31/03/2008 23:20:39 »
I like him too, but also like Hillary.. I have to mull my decision lots more.. as I have been on the fence.. I need to do some more studying and ask more questions...

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #10 on: 31/03/2008 23:23:27 »
How about Mike Huckabee and his... CHUCK NORRIS!!

LOL I'm afraid to say, I think he's a bit "cuckoo"
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another_someone

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« Reply #11 on: 31/03/2008 23:28:58 »
Kennedy also gave you the Bay of Pigs, and dug you deeper into Vietnam.

Kennedy's reputation was made by the fact that he died 3 years into his presidency, so nobody actually knows what he would have been like another 5 years down the line.

Yes, I think there is a lot of similarity between Kennedy and Obama - most of it is down to showmanship.

I am not suggesting that Obama is any worse than Clinton, only a little wary about someone who is clearly a great showman.  Then again, I don't have to worry about voting for any of them (I just have to live with the consequences).

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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #12 on: 31/03/2008 23:54:00 »
You mean HuckaPHOOEY!!!!!!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #13 on: 01/04/2008 00:05:54 »
LOL... You should see his advert! (With his gay friend Chuckie.)
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Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #14 on: 01/04/2008 00:28:20 »
Well I don't watch ads... I try to stick to reading the issues and the stands... but once in a while I will watch a debate.. went to see Bill Clinton speak for Hillary and stood in line for hours only to see secret service agents and not get in cause they underestimated the turn out..... Had to listen in my car outside the room!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #15 on: 01/04/2008 00:32:37 »
Kennedy also gave you the Bay of Pigs, and dug you deeper into Vietnam.

Kennedy's reputation was made by the fact that he died 3 years into his presidency, so nobody actually knows what he would have been like another 5 years down the line.

Yes, I think there is a lot of similarity between Kennedy and Obama - most of it is down to showmanship.

I am not suggesting that Obama is any worse than Clinton, only a little wary about someone who is clearly a great showman.  Then again, I don't have to worry about voting for any of them (I just have to live with the consequences).

His death did NOT make Kennedy's reputation - That is complete balderdash from a person who never lived through those times here in this country. 

Kennedy's legacy began with his inaugural speech - "Ask not what your country can do for you - but what you can do for your country," and his his challenge to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade - it happened.

No one is panning Churchill for drinking brandy all day long or his intransigence at the end of WWII that got him voted out of office.

Yes, they are both show boaters. And both made mistakes - Kennedy the Bay of pigs, But then so are all charismatic leaders.

But the concrete changes in MY life from the Kennedy administration are profound and lasting. Just as Churchill's determination rhetoric and showboating is now keeping you from having to speak German.No one ever brings up the fact that Churchill disastrously managed the UK's return to the gold standard in the late 20's as Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor Churchill's staunch refusal and opposition to the end of British rule and Indian independence. Nor do they remember him for writing in his 1937 book Great Contemporaries, Churchill wrote: "One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievements. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable (as Hitler) to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations".

Now if you wish to fault John Kennedy - fault Churchill as well.

NEITHER WERE PERFECT BUT THEY SHAPED NATIONS !

« Last Edit: 01/04/2008 00:44:35 by JimBob »
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another_someone

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« Reply #16 on: 01/04/2008 03:01:51 »
I am the last person to doubt the long list of faults in Churchill's political career (you also forgot his role in Ireland, and his grand standing in the Sidney Street siege).

The difference between Kennedy and Churchill was that Churchill had far more time in which to make his mistakes, and he made plenty of them.  We can only imagine how many mistakes Kennedy would have made had he had as long.

The point about Kennedy is that he was a great showman, but much of what was actually done was left to the less flamboyant Linden B. Johnson.  We remember Kennedy for his showmanship - an attribute for which LBJ was eminently forgettable, yet in many ways it was LBJ's skill that actually was left to implement much of what Kennedy promised.

I think the real problem with this (and this certainly pertains to the Clinton/Obama debate, and has been shown to be very much the case with GWB, and was clearly apparent with the increasingly senile Reagan), is that the President is a front man, and without knowing how the team behind them will perform, it will tell us little about how the Presidency as a whole will perform.

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #17 on: 01/04/2008 04:11:52 »
Do you ever stop being a pedantic, argumentative person, especially about a government with which the only familiarity you have is via a newspaper?

I lived through the Kennedy administration and I saw what President Johnson did - in spite of his personal beliefs that were on display all the time here in Texas - he loved 70 miles from here. Johnson's beliefs were not what Kennedy espoused, but because of Kennedy's charismatic influence on Johnson, he turned from a man who had more dead people vote for him in Duval County, Texas - more people that the population of that county - to get him elected to his first senate seat, into a man who was forced by Kennedy's strength of character (political, not personal character) to face his own deficiencies, change and let his better nature come out and do what Kennedy - not Johnson - thought was right.

Charismatic people with principals change a nation, one life by one life.

That idea may be something alien to cynics.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #18 on: 01/04/2008 10:22:59 »
Wow.. Thanks All..
Never knew so much about Kennedy or Churchill [;D]
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another_someone

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« Reply #19 on: 01/04/2008 11:24:34 »
Charismatic people with principals change a nation, one life by one life.

You mean like Adolf Hitler - few have ever questioned his charisma, but his man management skills were atrocious, and contributed seriously to Germany losing the war.

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #20 on: 01/04/2008 15:10:32 »
My worrying sister thinks he's fit..

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #21 on: 01/04/2008 16:02:58 »
Charismatic people with principals change a nation, one life by one life.

You mean like Adolf Hitler - few have ever questioned his charisma, but his man management skills were atrocious, and contributed seriously to Germany losing the war.

YES - I mean like Hitler - Charisma can be used for either good or bad - as Chuchill once thought (see above quote).
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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another_someone

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« Reply #22 on: 02/04/2008 02:16:34 »
Charismatic people with principals change a nation, one life by one life.

You mean like Adolf Hitler - few have ever questioned his charisma, but his man management skills were atrocious, and contributed seriously to Germany losing the war.

YES - I mean like Hitler - Charisma can be used for either good or bad - as Chuchill once thought (see above quote).


The problem is that charisma is a tool, not a policy.

The difference between Churchill and Hitler, policy issues aside, was that Churchill was a far superior team player, able to delegate power to people who actually could do the job.  Hitler, right from the start of his rise to power, was fighting against his own people, and had senior members of his own government plotting against him.

In that respect, G.W.Bush actually is a good team manager.  Alas, the fact that he chose a bad team (although it had a few good players, but those good players were not given the power due to their competence), combined with his lack of experience, meant he made some very bad mistakes in his early years, mistakes he has been unable to recover from (mistakes that in many ways were not so different from mistakes that Churchill made in his early career, but Churchill's great period came 40 years after entering Parliament, and 35 years after his first ministerial post.

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #23 on: 02/04/2008 03:45:55 »
The problem is that charisma is a tool, not a policy.

So what? The inspiration to rise above your personal limitations is what charisma is all about. Have you never been inspired by someone to archive more than you could believe yourself capable of? If not, I pity you for lacking such influences in your life.

In the present case, if the inspiration is for rebuilding a country for the people who live in it, then I am all for the charisma. And I have no doubts about this being the case with respect to Obama.


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In that respect, G.W.Bush actually is a good team manager. 


Again, you are know not of what you speak.

G. W. Bush is a complete idiot that is being used as a figure head - I knew the Governor of Texas whom Bush replaced. I once had the pleasure of having lunch with her - I know her son, Clark. When I asked her - Ann Richards, who only served one term - what she thought about the up coming election and her chances against Bush (for Governor - he was running against her) she said her chances were not too good because of the organization that was backing him. It was a right-winged group headed by oil and gas companies, service companies and world-wide construction companies headquartered in Texas. They wanted some favors from the sate - they got them. Hallburton was at that time headed by it's CEO, Dick Chaney, now our vice-President.

Bush was and still is a figurehead. He has little if anything to do with actual governing. It is Chaney and those others behind the scenes who actually run this country right now. That is why this election is so important. When asked by another person siting at the table that lunch-time, "well what do you think of Bush's intelligence (or something to that effect) she answered in her inimitable way "Well, the kindest thing I can say about him is that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer." 

With that understatement, we knew she thought Bush was a complete idiot and I must gather from his performance and that of those who run him, that the inmates are in charge of the asylum.

Ann Richards was the person who said the the Democratic National convention that "He (George Bush} can't help it - he was born with a silver foot in his mouth."
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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« Reply #24 on: 02/04/2008 05:16:59 »
The only thing Hillary has going for her in my book is that she wants to give the most money to scientific reserach out of the two.  But that's not enough to win me over on her, and any democrat would be a huge step up from the anti-science Bush administration regardless!!

Everyone I've ever heard of who's ever encountered Hillary when the cameras aren't rolling says that she's a complete and utter BITCH!  Maybe she'd make a good president, maybe she wouldn't, who knows.  All I know is that I can't vote for a person like that.

Go Obama!
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #25 on: 02/04/2008 09:34:13 »
Yes, Obama indeed.

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« Reply #26 on: 02/04/2008 14:51:58 »
So what? The inspiration to rise above your personal limitations is what charisma is all about.

Not at all - charisma (at the risk of crossing threads) has more to do with stage hypnotism (OK, you might argue that a stage hypnotist can also get people to achieve things they thought themselves not capable of).  We saw far too much charisma with Tony Blair - all charisma and no common sense.

Have you never been inspired by someone to archive more than you could believe yourself capable of?


I have always archived far too much, without any need for inspiration - now achievement is another thing, but never had problems with archiving stuff [;D]

Quote
In that respect, G.W.Bush actually is a good team manager. 

Again, you are know not of what you speak.

G. W. Bush is a complete idiot that is being used as a figure head - I knew the Governor of Texas whom Bush replaced. I once had the pleasure of having lunch with her - I know her son, Clark. When I asked her - Ann Richards, who only served one term - what she thought about the up coming election and her chances against Bush (for Governor - he was running against her) she said her chances were not too good because of the organization that was backing him. It was a right-winged group headed by oil and gas companies, service companies and world-wide construction companies headquartered in Texas. They wanted some favors from the sate - they got them. Hallburton was at that time headed by it's CEO, Dick Chaney, now our vice-President.

Bush was and still is a figurehead. He has little if anything to do with actual governing. It is Chaney and those others behind the scenes who actually run this country right now. That is why this election is so important. When asked by another person siting at the table that lunch-time, "well what do you think of Bush's intelligence (or something to that effect) she answered in her inimitable way "Well, the kindest thing I can say about him is that he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer." 

With that understatement, we knew she thought Bush was a complete idiot and I must gather from his performance and that of those who run him, that the inmates are in charge of the asylum.

Ann Richards was the person who said the the Democratic National convention that "He (George Bush} can't help it - he was born with a silver foot in his mouth."

Not sure anything you have said really contradicted anything I said, except that I think Bush is brighter than he is made out to be, but was very inexperienced in his role (that is the nature of the US presidential system, and presents problems for any newly elected President), and (as I myself suggested) he was served by a poor team.  The point I was making all along is that the President and the Presidency are two different things (in that respect, it is no different in our Parliamentary system - Churchill would not have achieved what he did without Clement Atlee, and the early years of the Thatcher administration were greatly helped by the presence of Willy Whitelaw in the Government).  Over the last 12 months, I do detect a change in the Bush administrations approach to matters, and an indication that lessons have been learnt, but alas too late to have avoided the disastrous mistakes they made during their years of inexperience.

Both LBJ and the first Bush had the benefit of having served as vice president before taking on the Presidency themselves; and as I said, Churchill has 40 years of experience in Parliament, having at some time been in several different senior ministries, before becoming PM.

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #27 on: 02/04/2008 17:12:03 »
Up until a mid 2007 the Bush administration was run by Karl Rove, who resigned under fire because of MANY criminal investigations that were making it difficult for the Administrative Branch to function. He was also under considerable criticism by his own party because of his poor conduct of the 2006 mid-term congressional elections that  allowed the Democrats to regain control of Congress. His successor as Chief of Staff, Joshua Bolton, appears to  have the main task of salvaging the Bush reputation, rather than running the country.

The first time G.W. Bush was ever asked about going to war with Iraq was on his way to his helicopter on the White House Lawn from the White House itself; his answer as to why war - "Saddam tried to kill my daddy," referring to a plot uncovered by the intelligence community after the 1992 war for Kuwait. It was the only time he said that. It was a lapse into reality for George.

As for a discussion of the Bush administration and George Bush himself, it is a useless exercise to explain to someone who has not lived with the subject intimately and with attentiveness, day in, day out, for the last 20+ years, and has no inkling of just how bumbling Bush is perceived by those of us who are his critics. The examples of the Bush stupidity are legion. He had ample training to enter the White House but never was "well trained" - always a screw-up.

So here is a taste of what Bush is like - from Wikipedia (the bold and italic is mine)

"As a college senior, Bush became a member of the secretive Skull and Bones society, although, by his own characterization, Bush was an average student.[14] (he was in the lower quarter of his class)
 
"In May 1968, at the height of the ongoing Vietnam War, Bush was accepted into the Texas Air National Guard despite[15] only scoring in the 25th percentile[16][17] on the pilot's written aptitude test, which was the lowest acceptable passing grade.[15] 

"In 1970 Bush applied to the University of Texas School of Law and was rejected." (he never received a law degree from any other institution either.)"

Bush failed in all of his business ventures, inculcating his ownership of the Colorado Rockies, a baseball team.



It is sad that some people live on the dreary hamster wheel of logic, reason and cynicism, not being able to see how charisma - or inspiration - has a role in the human equation nor the imagination to allow for anything outside of their own personal experience.

Two quotes:

"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."
    Zadok Rabinwitz

"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."
    Albert Einstein

This discussion is quite analogous to having a discussion with a emotionless computer pretending to be human. And a computer that doesn't have all of the facts at hand.

I am out of this discussion - it has become pointless and so very, very uninformed.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2008 17:13:49 by JimBob »
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein