UK rejects the Holocost.

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Offline JimBob

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« on: 07/05/2008 05:21:06 »
I just learned that this week the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it "offended" the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. 

This is a frightening portent of the lack of moral integrity that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving in to it. Re-writing history is just a bad idea. George Santana, the philosopher, said something to the effect that "those who forget (perhaps it was ignore) the past are bound to repeat it."

It is a matter of recorded fact that when The Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, first saw the victims of the death camps, he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead. He did this because he said in words to this effect: 'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended. 

I am posting this in memory of the 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, 1,900 Catholic and Lutheran priests and unknown numbers of Gypsies and other undesirables who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated - all with the German - and Russian - peoples looking the other way!

THE UK IS LOOKING AWAY!

Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets. 

The Holocaust actually happened! It is historical fact!

WHY didn't the English people, almost defeated by the Germans in WW II, object to this pandering to suit a group of people - their religious persuasion is unimportant - in spite of the overwhelming evidence that supports the Holocaust. I actually knew a man who was in a concentration camp. I saw his tattoo. His recollections are burned into my mind and I just cannot imagine the suffering he endured. I shudder when I remember he told me that he ate his brother's flesh to survive.

This is not something I would stand by idly and let my government do to me and my family (we are not Jewish, either). If I did, it could happen to my family's descendants.

Doesn't moral integrity count for anything any more?

WHY ARE THE BRITISH DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS? IT IS INSANE!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." 
        --- Edmund Burke   
« Last Edit: 07/05/2008 05:23:11 by JimBob »
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #1 on: 07/05/2008 08:13:15 »
Although I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, you have, unfortunately, fallen foul of media sensationalism.

Teaching about the holocaust has not been removed from the National Curriculum. Schools are free to choose the content of lessons within the framework of the NC. Some headteachers are wary of teaching about subjects where there is a major cultural conflict with what is taught to pupils at home.

A report was commissioned and reported that (according to The Times Online) "In particular settings, teachers of history are unwilling to challenge highly contentious or charged versions of history in which pupils are steeped at home, in their community or in a place of worship."

The report gave the example of a history department in a northern city which decided not to teach the Holocaust as a topic for GCSE coursework due to the offence it could cause among the Moslem families whose childen attend the school.

It
[the report] cited another school which taught the Holocaust, but then avoided teaching the Crusades because "balanced treatment" of the topic would have challenged what some local mosques were teaching.

Emotive issues such as the slave trade can be taught too blandly, portraying Afro-Caribbeans as victims and isolating black children, the report said.

But when teachers downplay the role of the white authorities in abolishing the slave trade, white children can become alienated.


History is often distorted to better suit the culture in which it is taught. For instance, WWII history was, until recently, heavily censored in Japan. However, where there is clear evidence that certain events too place then that evidence should be put forward. Cultural appeasement should not enter into it.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2008 08:22:24 by DoctorBeaver »
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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #2 on: 07/05/2008 10:10:08 »
We do have our yellow journalist here as well. In fact we share the same one - Rupert Murdoch. He owns papers such as USA Today, a nationally printed paper that is sold uniformly across the US. His multimedia holdings are also quite large.

Aside:
Damn, I am beginning to feel like Neil - I'd pay a hundred bucks for a good nights sleep. I have fought he bed for six hors and finally gave it up. Useless exercise. I haven't really slept well for a couple of months now. (string of curses by the best Chief Petty officers in the US navy  deleted - My nephew, a master Chief Patty Officer and nuclear engineer has taught me well.)

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Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #3 on: 07/05/2008 13:14:13 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!
Nothing is absolute. It takes a thousand people to make a stereotype, only one to grind it into the dust.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #4 on: 07/05/2008 19:47:44 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

I know plenty of Moslems and none of them has got 12 kids. The majority have 3-4.
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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #5 on: 07/05/2008 20:21:43 »
SO what is the birth rate of the indigenous British population?
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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #6 on: 07/05/2008 22:32:57 »
It was 2.5 but it does go up and down from time to time.

I went to Hiroshima recently and they have really dumbed down the peace museum. Previously it left me rung out and tremendously sad but they have taken the edges off in order to be diplomatic. Before they said that yes, the Hiroshima bomb was sort of justified, the Nagasaki one was just an experiment and not necessary. This is now brushed under the carpet. These events in history should not be sanitised. War and geneside is not nice, not far and not something easy to digest. Learning about these events should make you cry, get angry and feel sick to the stomach. If a parent has an objection to part of the curriculum they should have the chance to remove their child from that lesson. They get this option with sex education so why not cultural differences in history. I don't think teaching of history should change because of the make up of the school.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #7 on: 07/05/2008 23:23:14 »
If a parent has an objection to part of the curriculum they should have the chance to remove their child from that lesson. They get this option with sex education so why not cultural differences in history. I don't think teaching of history should change because of the make up of the school.

I totally agree.
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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #8 on: 08/05/2008 02:14:11 »
The act that some school are folding to the pressure is still reprehensible to me. Neglecting the role of history in ones life neglects the root cause of the present situation of the relations between radical Moslem's and the West, the way the black people are treated in the US and many, many other social issues on which dialog, not confrontation, is needed.
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #9 on: 08/05/2008 08:01:41 »
The act that some school are folding to the pressure is still reprehensible to me. Neglecting the role of history in ones life neglects the root cause of the present situation of the relations between radical Moslem's and the West, the way the black people are treated in the US and many, many other social issues on which dialog, not confrontation, is needed.

At least British schools don't teach Creationism as fact.

I can't help but think that the pressure is coming from themselves. It's the PC brigade not wishing to offend people where, probably, no offence would be taken anyway.
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Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #10 on: 08/05/2008 13:15:22 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

I know plenty of Moslems and none of them has got 12 kids. The majority have 3-4.
It was 2.5 but it does go up and down from time to time.


So they still out number you.
Nothing is absolute. It takes a thousand people to make a stereotype, only one to grind it into the dust.

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #11 on: 08/05/2008 13:26:27 »
It is still wrong to forgot and neglect the awful history of the
Holocaust and I am sort of sure that most of us on TNS have awareness of people, who suffered then.

The UK looked away in WW2 as they do now with other war crimes,
which I could list for ever (I won't).
If this history is not taught then it might get repeated as it's already done in the latter half of the 20th century and now in the
21st century.
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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paul.fr

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« Reply #12 on: 08/05/2008 14:24:11 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

[/quote]
So they still out number you.
[/quote]

Get a new book.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #13 on: 08/05/2008 16:05:20 »
Come on guys what chance has anyone got of ignoring the Holocaust. We are bombarded with reminders almost on a daily basis, there have been films, documentaries, songs, poems, personal accounts and even protests, so the chances of this topic falling into the unwritten history department has long since gone.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #14 on: 08/05/2008 17:19:31 »
I read in a book about how the Britain's birth rate is really low, 1.62 or along the lines of that, and it's really low because of something with their gov't set up. Muslims, however, still have 12 kids a family and are outnumbering the Britains. Maybe that's why this is happening.

Psst, don't hang me, hang the author!

Quote from: Nobody's Confidant
So they still out number you.

Get a new book.
Why?
Nothing is absolute. It takes a thousand people to make a stereotype, only one to grind it into the dust.

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #15 on: 08/05/2008 17:38:13 »
Come on guys what chance has anyone got of ignoring the Holocaust. We are bombarded with reminders almost on a daily basis, there have been films, documentaries, songs, poems, personal accounts and even protests, so the chances of this topic falling into the unwritten history department has long since gone.


But if our next generation are not taught about their grandparents history as the Holocaust was then for some.
It will be forgotten when that generation die.
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #16 on: 08/05/2008 17:58:09 »
Absolutely agree, R-DNA
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #17 on: 08/05/2008 19:28:16 »
"The UK looked away in WW2 as they do now with other war crimes"
That's odd, I thought we fought in it, then we took part in the war crimes trials.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #18 on: 08/05/2008 20:12:22 »
I know you have probably read this somewhere, and you probably do not realise how badly your initial post offends the majority of people in the United Kingdom and other Countries that were involved in the war. When you mention Britain as a whole, please redirect your comments towards the government and not the people of Britain who all remember the losses in the war and many have families that witnessed it at first hand.

Politicians might want to forget. But the British People will have long memories of  their betrayal.


I am posting this in memory of all the Brave soldiers who laid down their lives to liberate the Jews from the death camps and receive far less publicity than those that they laid down their lives for. I attended the last Dunkirk Memorial with my wife and we felt moved seeing the last few brave civilians and soldiers who were wearing their medals with pride.
Let us also remember that the Bravest Soldiers in the world died to save the people who were subjected to the atrocities and let us not forget that the German People were also terrified by the nazis and a huge number of them never wanted to go to war. And while we are at it let us remember that Politicians create wars not soldiers! Many decent German people died because of a dictator who had delusions of grandeur Many innocent German men women and children were blown to bits and massacred in the wars! Who is remembering them?

The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II was roughly 72 million people. The civilian toll was around 47 million, including 20 million deaths due to war related famine and disease. The military toll was about 25 million, including the deaths of about 4 million prisoners of war in captivity. The Allies lost approximately 61 million people, and the Axis powers lost 11 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

The Allied Soldiers are gone, let us make sure they are also never forgotten.
∑   United Kingdom (England, Great Britain)
∑   United States (America, USA)
∑   Soviet Union (USSR, Russia)
∑   France
∑   Canada
∑   Australia
∑   China
∑   Poland
∑   Greece
∑   Netherlands
∑   Belgium
∑   Czechoslovakia
∑   Luxembourg
∑   Norway
.    Yugoslavia


Axis Countries

Germany

Italy

Japan

Finland

Hungary

Romania

Bulgaria

Croatia

Slovakia
« Last Edit: 08/05/2008 21:12:41 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #19 on: 08/05/2008 22:35:05 »
Yes Andrew K Fletcher but what about the genocide that has happened
since the second worldc war. Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Croatia and in Cambodia, Vietnam.


Rwanda and Burundi.

What about the aftermath of the Burmese/Myanamar's devastation from the cyclone and that the Military Junta won't let in UN Aid
that is becoming genocidal as I type.

Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #20 on: 09/05/2008 01:29:45 »
I know you have probably read this somewhere, and you probably do not realise how badly your initial post offends the majority of people in the United Kingdom and other Countries that were involved in the war. When you mention Britain as a whole, please redirect your comments towards the government and not the people of Britain who all remember the losses in the war and many have families that witnessed it at first hand.

Politicians might want to forget. But the British People will have long memories of  their betrayal.


As I tried to point out by quoting Burke, THE PEOPLE are to blame - if they do nothing, as seems to be the case in the incidents cited in Dr. Beaver's more balanced perspective rather than the sensationalism I cited - then this insanity will continue.

The masses of the people MUST make sure it never ever is forgotten. They failed.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #21 on: 09/05/2008 07:55:00 »
May I dispell a few myths about the Rwanda situation.

I was living in Uganda when the Rwanda civil war exploded and was a frequent visitor to that country. I was, in fact, actually in Kigali, the Rwandan capital, when the whole place went "tits up". Seeing murderous, baying crowds with machetes and other weapons rampaging through the streets, hacking at anyone who got in their way, was a bit unnerving.

The UK government was pressing for troops from other African countries to be sent in to stop the fighting. Uganda & Tanzania had troops ready on the borders, but the UN prevaricated and insisted on trying to find a diplomatic solution. Anyone actually on the ground there could have told them that there was no chance whatsoever of such a solution as there wasn't really anyone in charge of the mobs who could say "Stop".

Belgium acted by sending in a small contingent of paratroopers to assist foreigners leaving the country (Rwanda used to be a Belgian colony and still had a large diplomatic presence at the time). That is possibly the only time in my life I've been pleased to see a Belgian.  [:D]

One has to consider, though, the logistics of sending in peace-keeping troops. Rwanda may only be a small country, but it is very densely populated (I believe Rwanda and neighbouring Burundi are the most densely populated African countries). There was violence in practically every corner of the land. Even small, remote villages were not immune. It would have taken an enormous number of troops to quell the violence. Sending in too small a contingent would have served only to put those troops at excessive risk. The inter-tribal tension between Tutsi & Hutu had been brewing for many years. A few troops on street corners would have stood no chance.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #22 on: 09/05/2008 09:45:26 »
My point is that with films like Schindler's List and others listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films There is absolutely zero chance of anyone forgetting or even pretending to ignore what happened to the Jews during the Second World War. Do you think for one minute that Israel would permit anyone to forget this? Schindler's List for example will be repeated throughout the year across many channels, it's on DVD, it can be downloaded from the Internet, there are many Reviews about it everywhere, it won 7 Oscars and will be on our screens for the next 100 years or more and this is just one example of the massive publicity that will make sure this historic event will never be allowed to become silent despite what anyone says might happen.

Africa is Africa, they have always had tribal wars which if we looked closely into we would find that tribal politics played a very important roll in the ethnic cleansing that took place there.

Doctor Beever, RESPECT for being there and for surviving it. The U.K. Government may have been thinking about doing something but it did little to help to quell the events that soon unfolded. Sending in troops from other countries in Africa might well have helped, but it could also have gone "tits up" as each country took different sides. Remembering the second World War might be a good idea to see that adding more African Countries could well have taken the massacres to the next level.


http://www.slate.com/id/2098431/
TRUE RECONCILIATION IS IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL EVERYONE'S SUFFERING IS RECOGNIZED.
By Michael J. Kavanagh
Posted Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 6:18 PM ET
Two weeks ago, a perfect example of the deep cleavages that continue to divide Rwanda emerged after France released a report linking current President Paul Kagame to the downing of the plane carrying Rwandan President Juvenal Habyarimana on April 6, 1994. (Who brought down the plane will always be the "who shot JFK" question of the genocide.) The RPF denounced the report and called for an inquiry into the French role in the genocide. My Hutu driver, on the other hand, declared, "Kagame shot down the plane? Yeah. Everybody knows that."
But even if "everybody knows that" (in other words, that's what most Hutus think), you'll never hear them say it in public. For the most part, they're keeping their version of the story to themselves.
And for many Hutus, the feeling that pervades the country today is one of exclusionóthe national month of mourning is for Tutsis. The memorial sites are for Tutsis. The businesses are for Tutsis. The government is for Tutsis. Between 500,000 and 1 million people died in Rwanda 10 years ago. Most were Tutsis who were killed in a vicious act of genocide, and that cannot be forgotten. But the innocent Hutus who died cannot be forgotten, either.
And no matter how enlightened the government's rhetoric, it seems unlikely that there can be a real, lasting conversation about "unity and reconciliation" when 80 percent of the population feels they are not part of the discussion.




[/quote]
As I tried to point out by quoting Burke, THE PEOPLE are to blame - if they do nothing, as seems to be the case in the incidents cited in Dr. Beaver's more balanced perspective rather than the sensationalism I cited - then this insanity will continue.
The masses of the people MUST make sure it never ever is forgotten. They failed.
[/quote]
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #23 on: 09/05/2008 13:15:08 »
May I dispell a few myths about the Rwanda situation.

I was living in Uganda when the Rwanda civil war exploded and was a frequent visitor to that country. I was, in fact, actually in Kigali, the Rwandan capital, when the whole place went "tits up". Seeing murderous, baying crowds with machetes and other weapons rampaging through the streets, hacking at anyone who got in their way, was a bit unnerving.

The UK government was pressing for troops from other African countries to be sent in to stop the fighting. Uganda & Tanzania had troops ready on the borders, but the UN prevaricated and insisted on trying to find a diplomatic solution. Anyone actually on the ground there could have told them that there was no chance whatsoever of such a solution as there wasn't really anyone in charge of the mobs who could say "Stop".

Belgium acted by sending in a small contingent of paratroopers to assist foreigners leaving the country (Rwanda used to be a Belgian colony and still had a large diplomatic presence at the time). That is possibly the only time in my life I've been pleased to see a Belgian.  [:D]

One has to consider, though, the logistics of sending in peace-keeping troops. Rwanda may only be a small country, but it is very densely populated (I believe Rwanda and neighbouring Burundi are the most densely populated African countries). There was violence in practically every corner of the land. Even small, remote villages were not immune. It would have taken an enormous number of troops to quell the violence. Sending in too small a contingent would have served only to put those troops at excessive risk. The inter-tribal tension between Tutsi & Hutu had been brewing for many years. A few troops on street corners would have stood no chance.


Thank God you made it out. The world would have been sorely worse without you.
Nothing is absolute. It takes a thousand people to make a stereotype, only one to grind it into the dust.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #24 on: 09/05/2008 21:08:12 »
Andrew - in the case of Rwanda, the people did do something; they went on a murderous rampage. The saddest thing about it was that anyone who knew the country could see it coming and, maybe, early intervention & positive social engineering could have prevented a lot of bloodshed.

The politics of the situation goes back at least as far as colonial days. The inter-tribal tension was like a volcano waiting to erupt. I don't know the event, or events, that finally caused the explosion.

Many Tutsi had served in Yoweri Museveni's rebel army in Uganda & helped overthrow Milton Obote. 1986 Paul Kagame, who had been an Intelligence Officer in Museveni's NRA (National Resistance Army) formed a Rwandan rebel army in southern Uganda and invaded Rwanda. In the build-up to the Rwandan civil war, Hutu militia dressed as RPF used to attack Ugandan farms & plantations along the border in an effort to get Uganda to switch allegiance. It didn't work, though, as everyone knew they were really Hutu. Myself and some other local landowners (mostly African) had our own defence force as the Ugandan army was incapable of policing the whole area.

That was part of the reason the UN did not want Ugandan troops going into Rwanda. It was feared that rather than being impartial, they would continue to support the Tutsi. But that does not explain why Tanzanian troops were prevented from taking action.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2008 21:14:13 by DoctorBeaver »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #25 on: 10/05/2008 12:58:51 »
Thanks for the insight Doc

When a mob goes on the rampage so to speak it is because they have been manipulated into doing so. An army does not suddenly decide it wants to go fight a war. How many times have we heard a news report saying the soldiers have decided to start a war of their own? What can happen is that soldiers will sumtimes turn on their leaders if they begin attacking their own people, unless of course they are under threat of execution as was the case in WW 1 & 2 Think about the German Soldiers who had the option to refuse orders at the death camps only to face a firing squad themselves. I do not condone what went on there just trying to put ourselves in their shoes and enable us to ask whether we would choose to carry out orders or to give up our lives knowing that someone else would carry out the orders anyway? I am glad I have never had to face this terrible situation and hope no one else ever has to. Personally I think I would rather have turned my machine gun on the officers and taken out as many as possible, but who knows which way will go under such extreme circumstances?

For people to dress in uniforms of another army and commit attrocities, they would have to have been organised by politicians and politics. A group of people deciding to do this without any motivation is unlikely.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #26 on: 10/05/2008 15:09:52 »
If that is so, then how come over 27 million men, women and children
were killed?? Because the soldiers were at behest of their peers
and actually they killed like we do the housework without second
thought ???

The men, who tried to assisanate (sp) Hitler were hung and left there in Brandenburg Square unti their bodies rotted. If only ......

Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline that mad man

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« Reply #27 on: 10/05/2008 18:28:50 »
We should never forget the holocaust or any other atrocities done in the past.

But, people should be taught that it was not centred just on the Jewish community and that any conspiracy of extermination at the time affected may others as well.

Talk to kids at school and you will find that to them the Holocaust was about the War, Germany and the Nazi extermination of the Jews and very little else. The emphasis is mainly on the Jewish part which IS important but the rest seems to be skirted over and not taught well.

Remember the Holocaust for what it was, a sick time in our history and not just for how it affected one group of people, namely the Jews.






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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #28 on: 10/05/2008 18:44:33 »
We should never forget the holocaust or any other atrocities done in the past.

But, people should be taught that it was not centred just on the Jewish community and that any conspiracy of extermination at the time affected may others as well.

Talk to kids at school and you will find that to them the Holocaust was about the War, Germany and the Nazi extermination of the Jews and very little else. The emphasis is mainly on the Jewish part which IS important but the rest seems to be skirted over and not taught well.

Remember the Holocaust for what it was, a sick time in our history and not just for how it affected one group of people, namely the Jews.


I agree. That is why I gave the numbers of different population groups in my original posts. The Russians are as guilty, if not more so than Germans and that has also been forgotten.

« Last Edit: 11/05/2008 01:40:28 by JimBob »
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #29 on: 10/05/2008 21:30:45 »
Andrew - the Hutu militia were indeed organised, but not the mobs. Yes, trouble was stirred up by a few people but those same people had no power to stop the genocide once it started. There were simply too many mobs. Had it been just 1 large mob then, yes, maybe it could have been stopped.
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Offline JimBob

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« Reply #30 on: 11/05/2008 04:51:24 »
Mobs have a dynamic all their own. It is really mass insanity.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #31 on: 11/05/2008 12:20:24 »
Yes and it was the Catholics, Jews, the ill, gays (no offence meant)
non-Arians (sp).

Nazis' disabled victims honoured
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7393993.stm
(about time too)
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #32 on: 13/01/2009 11:33:45 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPw-mqGkL9M

Phosphorous and rail guns used in densely populated Gaza

Will anyone be making a film about Israelís Gaza Holocaust?
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #33 on: 13/01/2009 15:38:33 »
Israelís Gaza Holocaust?

If only it were as simple as that.


Edit - I should really clarify that statement.  Obviously, I'm only as well informed as I can be on this topic, as I get my info from the news and online, but it seems to me that in the case of Israel/Palestine (more specifically Hamas), they are each as bad as the other.
« Last Edit: 13/01/2009 16:01:01 by BenV »

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Offline LeeE

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« Reply #34 on: 13/01/2009 18:26:58 »
Compare the relative body-counts.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #35 on: 13/01/2009 18:32:47 »
I don't trust either party to give me honest body counts.  Hamas appear to launch missiles from civilian areas, then Israel attacks these areas in retaliation - does that make civilian deaths entirely Israels' fault? is Hamas not at all responsible for that?  Likewise, Israel has much more firepower, and should really show more restraint.

Don't get me wrong, I support neither side.

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« Reply #36 on: 14/01/2009 00:32:51 »
The other day I watched "Saving Private Ryan" with my Quebecoise girl-friend and her kids (12, 13, 15). The kids had no clue what WWII was all about. I told them the Germans won. They believed it! Of course I corrected this immediately, but it was shocking to see how little they knew. Not even who was involved and who won! Nothing about the holocaust and how many people died. No connections to today. They are not bad students at all. Good grades mostly. This is the education they receive in a province of Canada that has the motto "Je me souviens" (I remember) on each car's license plate.

Eye-opening.

« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 00:34:31 by Karsten »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #37 on: 14/01/2009 11:12:12 »
The country with the biggest stick always hit's the most people. Israel in this case has a huge amount of firepower. No excuse for hitting schools and hospitals, killing innocent children and their families. Israel is committing the very act upon these people that was administered to their own people in Germany. The body counts stack up with every phosphorous shell and helicopter gun ship attack unloaded into heavily populated civilian areas. I remeber those children in Vietnam running out of streets on fire from American Bombs, their skin falling off and feeling their pain with tears falling from my cheeks. Now in Gaza in 2009 we have phosphorous burning holes into children who once more find themselves in agony fleeing from the horrific chemicals that burn deep into the flesh. Children who have done nothing to anyone in their precious short lives.

Israelís Government will undoubtedly have to face the courts for war crimes and will not find peace having alienated every country by their actions in Gaza.

We are all people on this planet for a very short time. Why not live in peace for Godís Sake?
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 11:14:15 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #38 on: 14/01/2009 13:27:54 »
On 27 January this year, it's Holocaust Memorial Day also I think
that what's going on in Gaza and Israel, it is definitely a war crime as
neither Israel nor the US have signed up to the International Criminal Court in
the Hague in the Netherlands. Nearly 1,000 Palestinians/Gazans have died up
my time of typing. 

I've edited then re-edited this post or I'd have ranted about this issue.

Also watch this link from John Pilger, it made me cry.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cF6oZZpHrjM

(Sorry to all of our US TNS members, it's not a dig at you).
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #39 on: 14/01/2009 13:38:00 »
The country with the biggest stick always hit's the most people. Israel in this case has a huge amount of firepower. No excuse for hitting schools and hospitals, killing innocent children and their families. Israel is committing the very act upon these people that was administered to their own people in Germany. The body counts stack up with every phosphorous shell and helicopter gun ship attack unloaded into heavily populated civilian areas. I remeber those children in Vietnam running out of streets on fire from American Bombs, their skin falling off and feeling their pain with tears falling from my cheeks. Now in Gaza in 2009 we have phosphorous burning holes into children who once more find themselves in agony fleeing from the horrific chemicals that burn deep into the flesh. Children who have done nothing to anyone in their precious short lives.

Israelís Government will undoubtedly have to face the courts for war crimes and will not find peace having alienated every country by their actions in Gaza.

We are all people on this planet for a very short time. Why not live in peace for Godís Sake?


I find it very disturbing that people are able to have a temporary ceasefire, either for diplomacy or aid - if you can stop for 3 days, why start again?

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Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #40 on: 14/01/2009 14:25:22 »
Mobs have a dynamic all their own. It is really mass insanity.
Awesome! Where do I sign up?
Nothing is absolute. It takes a thousand people to make a stereotype, only one to grind it into the dust.

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #41 on: 14/01/2009 15:50:21 »
Mobs have a dynamic all their own. It is really mass insanity.
Awesome! Where do I sign up?
I love the (Sir) Terry Pratchett idea that the IQ of a mob is calculated by the lowest IQ in the group divided by the number of people.

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #42 on: 14/01/2009 17:07:27 »
'More than 1,000 killed in Gaza'

All because of politics/religion and historicial wishes for the
small areas of this part of the Middle East !!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7828884.stm


Think on. Also if anyone wishes to protest then just look at "stop the war" site for the next one.
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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MDriver1981

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« Reply #43 on: 21/05/2009 22:27:45 »
Well, most of the world reject's that Stalin's Great Terror ever took place.  The Holocaust is just another genocide that is inconvenient at times.

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MDriver1981

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« Reply #44 on: 22/05/2009 00:55:45 »
The country with the biggest stick always hit's the most people. Israel in this case has a huge amount of firepower. No excuse for hitting schools and hospitals, killing innocent children and their families. Israel is committing the very act upon these people that was administered to their own people in Germany. The body counts stack up with every phosphorous shell and helicopter gun ship attack unloaded into heavily populated civilian areas. I remeber those children in Vietnam running out of streets on fire from American Bombs, their skin falling off and feeling their pain with tears falling from my cheeks. Now in Gaza in 2009 we have phosphorous burning holes into children who once more find themselves in agony fleeing from the horrific chemicals that burn deep into the flesh. Children who have done nothing to anyone in their precious short lives.

Israelís Government will undoubtedly have to face the courts for war crimes and will not find peace having alienated every country by their actions in Gaza.

We are all people on this planet for a very short time. Why not live in peace for Godís Sake?


I hear al_qeada has many many job openings.