How do water fuel cells work?

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Larry

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How do water fuel cells work?
« on: 08/05/2008 08:52:55 »
Larry asked the Naked Scientists:

Please explain the possibility of a Water Fuel Cell.

The atomic make up of water makes the molecule perfect for a fuel source. The water molecule is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen.  When the water molecule is separated into its component atoms (H and O) and oxidized as fuel, the resulting energy is two and one half times more powerful than gasoline. The by-product of the combustion is water vapour. Making water as a fuel, powerful and pollution free!

The problem has always been how to separate water economically. Traditional methods of separating the bond of the water molecule have resulted in failure.  To power a car by these methods would not move the car very far. The car?s electrical system could not recharge from the process quickly enough. The result would be a quickly drained battery. For many years Stanley Meyer researched this problem and found a way around it!

Is this true and possible?


What do you think?

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lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #1 on: 08/05/2008 16:02:22 »
This question gets asked very regularly. Water is an OXIDE not a fuel. You need at least as much energy from somewhere to separate the H and O atoms (to Reduce it).  There are legions of the Pro Hydrogen brigade. I have the idea that most of them think Hydrogen is available for nothing!
The basic equation is
Energy you get out
       = Energy you put in minus energy you lose in the process.
Your battery would get you a few yards down the road and would best be used to work an electric motor, directly.

Using solar energy, on a huge scale 'for free', it would be possible to obtain your Hydrogen. All you have to do is store it economically and then use a fuel cell in your car.
But that's not the question you asked, is it?



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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #2 on: 21/05/2008 02:00:47 »
So, I take it that Hydrogen Fuel Kits on Ebay and sites like runyourcaronwater.com are scams?I ask you this because a friend is ready to buy a conversion guide, which I am sure is a mistake, but she won't take my word for it. 
« Last Edit: 21/05/2008 02:27:58 by skeptic »
-JESOPH-

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lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #3 on: 23/05/2008 21:16:07 »
You've got it.
Get your friend to read all the threads on this forum and others about the topic.
Caveat emptor or
"A fool and his money are soon parted." Dunno who said this but it's true.

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Offline dan dan

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #4 on: 16/07/2008 19:39:10 »
All you need to do is look to those who have been doing this for some time. newbielink:http://www.oupower.com [nonactive] is packed full of those who actually experiment with using water as a fuel. I'm currently in the middle of constructing a test cell (or two) using stainless steel wire as electrodes (similar to but not exactly the same as water4gas). Read some INDEPENDANT reviews. If you can make or buy a cell that produces 1.2-2.0 liters/minute, at a current draw of less than 20 amps (more than that may be more than what your alternator can handle), then you should see a mileage increase of about 30%. For me, that'd be going from 36 mpg (in my '98 toyota corolla) to 46.8 (36*.30=10.8  10.4+36=46.8).
The way it works...consider this. God (Yes, GOD) gave us trees. We commonly chop them down (I have nothing against this) to make firewood... to burn in a fire. That's a material, wood, being converted into thermal energy through the simple ignition by a match or lighter.
Now, wrap you minds around this one... Water, like wood, is a material. Water, like wood is made of different atams that can be broken up by chemical reactions. And water, like wood can be converted into thermal energy. To say that it would take more energy to produce the hydrogen than would be taken out of the hydrogen for kenetic energy is like saying it takes more energy to light a match than you can possibly get out of the wood. You might as well just freeze.
The energy from the battery goes to the cell, where the water is split into HHO. This travels via tubing directly into your air intake, which combines with the normal incoming air to go into your combustion chambers. there, it meets up with the gassoline (unless this is a 100% water fueled car (which is theoretically possible, and has been claimed to have been done before, but is extremely rare) in which case you need to contact me) and is ignited in combination with the gas, to provide the energy needed to send the cylinder down to move the engine to send your car shuttling down the roadway. NOTE, some of the water is acutally CONSUMED. This is not perpetual motion or energy from nowhere. The energy is from the water.
The battery is in no way your energy sorce for this. If that were the case you might as well link an electric motor directly to your drivetrain (which can also increase fuel economy (Toyota Prius)). The battery energy goes in to spliting the water, not runing the car. Therefore the water is not the median by which battery energy is transfered to the engine, but rather the battery is the trigger to extract the water energy to be transfered to the engine.
Do the research, get the facts straight, don't buy in to a scam (there are plenty out there), and contribute to the movement by experimenting.

P.S. I've been working on water fuel research for about four years. I've done several experiments. I know what I'm talking about, email me if you have any questions: dan dude 102 AT gmail.com       (no spaces, AT = @)
« Last Edit: 16/07/2008 20:07:49 by dan dan »

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Offline dan dan

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #5 on: 16/07/2008 21:01:41 »
"Water is an OXIDE not a fuel"
True, but...
Wikipedia states that
"The simplest and best systematic name of water is hydrogen oxide. This is analogous to related compounds such as hydrogen peroxide, hydrogen sulfide, and deuterium oxide (heavy water)."
Hydrogen peroxide is also an oxide, but is flamable and can be used as a fuel. There are plenty of other oxides which can be used as fuel.

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #6 on: 17/07/2008 08:49:13 »
The best way i've heard of to generate hydrogen on the fly is by adding water to an aluminium-gallium alloy. The aluminium is then converted to aluminium oxide and must be recycled back to aluminium for re-use, but the gallium is just a catalyst and is not used in the reaction.

Here's an article on it: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #7 on: 17/07/2008 09:30:26 »
This is all to do with energy states. Basically you can't get owt from nowt, to use an old  Yorkshire saying. To say this means... "To say that it would take more energy to produce the hydrogen than would be taken out of the hydrogen for kenetic energy is like saying it takes more energy to light a match than you can possibly get out of the wood" is a misleading straw man argument. The point is here that you put a small amount of energy in to trigger a reaction in order to release energy from the oxidation of the phosphorus. This is going a little bit up an energy barrier then skating down the other side. The temperature then ignites the wood in a similar way. All the energy you get back has had to be put in there at some time in the past in refining the pure phosphorus and making the potassium chlorate (oxygen source) that usually accompanies it. The wood has taken years of sunlight and photosynthesis to fix carbon from the atmosphere - by burning it we are just getting some of that energy back. Any understanding of thermodynamics would show that you never can get it all back either, and certainly never get more back than has been put in.

The same arguments hold for water which is at a lower energy state than free hydrogen and oxygen. When you burn hydrogen in oxygen you get water plus energy (heat). Any reversal of this will involve putting energy back in. There are complications, which can be used to obfusticate the arguments, to do with the exchange between the atomic and molecular states, but the fundamental energy argument holds nonetheless. This is modern alchemy, not physics or chemistry.

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lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #8 on: 17/07/2008 09:53:31 »
Quote
Hydrogen peroxide is also an oxide, but is flamable and can be used as a fuel.
It isn't a fuel - it's an oxidising agent because it contains readily available Oxygen. It doesn't burn in air - it produces burning when added to a fuel of some sort.
Get yer facts straight, boyo!

Water needs energy PUT INTO IT in order to separate the H and the O. If you do that using Electrical energy and then burn the H in the O again, you may just as well use the Electrical Energy to drive an electric motor.
If you separate the two in a static system and then you use the two in a mobile application then there may be some advantage ("Hydrogen powered cars" etc) but it is just plain daft to carry round a battery in a vehicle and then use it to produce your H and O. Another energy transfer involves yet more inefficiency.

Do some basic reading round of the fundamentals and get some understanding before you waste your time and money on experiments / investments.

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Offline dan dan

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« Reply #9 on: 17/07/2008 15:40:45 »
newbielink:http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Hydrogen_Peroxide_as_Fuel [nonactive]

The last time I threw a match on some Hydrogen Peroxide, it burned.

So you can't get energy out of a raw material? Like gasoline, wood, hydrogen peroxide, gun powder, nitrus OXIDE, or water? Gasoline wouldn't work, because you'd have to drill the oil out of the earth, then refine it, not to mention all of the energy it would take to travel to get the gasoline to the stations. Everything else presents the same issue, to much work to prepare.
Water has everything present needed for a fuel, only it's held in a bundle called a molecule. This covalently bonded goodness will not burn unless seperated into hho.
Imagine with me if gassoline had the same property. You had to run about 2 volts of electricity at about 20 amps to get sufficient energy from it. After that, the energy could be fully harnessed. The electical energy put in in no way limits the ammount of energy that gassoline can deliver. It simply acts as a conditioner.
This is called ACTIVATION ENERGY.
The only way any of you are truely going to prove anything is by contribution, not theorization. I admit that modern science heavily relies on laws, and that if any of these laws is difinitively broken experimentation is useless. But, I don't see any laws, not even any thermodynamic laws, being broken here.
Go ahead, prove me wrong. Experiment using the scientific method, and see that you can not possibly get more energy from hho than what is used from the battery in electrolysis.
I have already gone through with this, and proven the opposite. Experimentation, done correctly, doesn't lie.

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This is modern alchemy, not physics or chemistry.
Call it what you'd like. We water fuelers like to use save money, the environment, and money. You can call us enconomy commuters, tight wads, dutch, or even paradoxes. After all, we're burning water

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Offline graham.d

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #10 on: 17/07/2008 16:42:31 »
People trying to turn base metals into gold thought they were on to a winner too. We now know better.

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Offline rosy

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« Reply #11 on: 17/07/2008 17:06:16 »
dan dan...
Whilst I acknowledge it's theoretically possible that we've got thermodynamics all wrong and you can indeed get something for nothing in energy/entropy terms (and if you're going to bring god into it as above of course it could all be down to miracles or, alternatively, pixies), the thermodynamic "law" that you can't get energy for nothing is pretty well tested, and that's what you're talking about here. I'll break it down incase that helps:

1) All water molecules are equivalent. Two hydrogens, one oxygen.
2) Breaking the bonds between the hydrogens and the oxygen requires energy (and makes H2 gas and O2 gas, but that's immaterial to my argument).
3) The energy to break the bonds must come from somewhere, in a car that's got to be the car battery.
4) The maximum theoretical energy available to be released in re-forming the water from whatever it's been split into (whether that's H2 and O2 or this mythical HHO stuff) is equal to the energy which was used to split the water in the first place, since you're just doing the reverse reaction.
5) In practice, since no process is 100% efficient, there will have been some energy lost in converting from H2O to whatever and some more will be lost in converting from whatever back into water.
6) Thus, hydrogen may be a fuel but water just ain't.
7) Anyone who tells you different is one of 3 things (a) a fool, (b) a charlatan or (c) the genius who's found a way around the conservation of energy.

If it were (c) they could quite simply set up a demonstration of this remarkable principle in a sealed box somewhere and leave it running indefinitely, since the water is supposedly going from water, back to water, it will never run out of fuel. After not very long the scientific (and indeed the political) community would prostrate themselves at this person's feet and beg for the secret to save the world from global warming and provide unlimited free energy for all.

My money's on (a) or (b).

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lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #12 on: 17/07/2008 18:25:59 »
dan dan
Quote
So you can't get energy out of a raw material?
Did I say that?
"Raw Material" is a meaningless term.
Can you burn Glass, Granite, Ash? No, because it requires more energy to get them to combine with oxygen (when even possible) than the combination produces. (Combustion is a process which produces heat when a fuel combines with Oxygen, remember?)
When you 'set fire' to the peroxide, what chemical reaction did you think took place? The match could have burned much more fiercely than in air because the concentration of Oxygen was higher. What else was there around to combine with the Oxygen released from the H2O2? Possibly the container or stuff on the surface you used. This is why H2O2 can be hazardous -but it doesn't combust.
Give the Chemists a bit of credit; they sorted all this out 200 years ago.
btw, I just spotted this:
Quote
covalently bonded goodness
Give me strength - whatever is THAT?
« Last Edit: 17/07/2008 18:28:47 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline dan dan

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« Reply #13 on: 17/07/2008 21:05:53 »
Quote
Quote

covalently bonded goodness

Give me strength - whatever is THAT?
Word choice is crutial in this business.


From here on out my words are mainly repeditive.

Quote
4) The maximum theoretical energy available to be released in re-forming the water from whatever it's been split into (whether that's H2 and O2 or this mythical HHO stuff) is equal to the energy which was used to split the water in the first place, since you're just doing the reverse reaction.
this is where you're mistaken.
If it were the reverse reaction a cell in which fire, atmaspheric air, and gassoline were acting togather to somehow split water. This is not the case. Instead:
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NOTE, some of the water is acutally CONSUMED. This is not perpetual motion or energy from nowhere. The energy is from the water.
SO the reaction isn't water to gas to water, but rather water to gas to ENERGY + Water, where there is less water to compinsate for the energy. This happends almost any time in a combustion reaction. you don't gain back as much matter because some of it is lost to heat, sound, and light energy.

Quote
Can you burn Glass, Granite, Ash? No, because it requires more energy to get them to combine with oxygen (when even possible) than the combination produces.

Glass contains Silica (SiO2), soda (anything with Na), and lime (CaO). None of those eliments are perticularly combustible.

Granite contains  quartz (composed mainly of silica (SiO2)), orthoclase (KAlSi3O8) or microcline (KAlSi3O8), and mica [KAl2(AlSi3O10)(OH)2]. A few mentionably combustible eliments found there, but it's a bit of a stretch.

Ash can contain any number of things, none of which will be worth seperating, because the item has already been combusted.


However, water contains a simple H2O. It can be easily seperated to form HHO (not H2 and O2, but also not chemically HHO, that's simply a name coined for something called 'Browns Gas'), then combusted to give off thermal energy and combine PART of that HHO back into water. Not a perfect system (there are also sound and light energy losses), but everybody knows perfection is hard to achieve. The energy provided for propulsion comes from the HHO itself, not the battery.

When I was 10, I was a pyromaniac. I spilled some hydrogen peroxide on the cement, threw light a match, and threw it on the peroxide. If I'm not mistaken, it lite on fire. If I'm correct anything that lights on fire can be used as a fuel. But I'm willing to say that I was wrong about this one. I was 10 some time ago. Besides, its totally unrelated.

Just like we use gasoline for fuel, HHO can be used as fuel. Once it is burned it turns into H2O. The fact that it is so easy to get HHO from water, and the fact that some of the water is returned gets some people confused when they consider the whole thing.

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Offline skeptic

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #14 on: 18/07/2008 00:35:02 »
"Water is an OXIDE not a fuel"
True, but...
Hydrogen peroxide is also an oxide, but is flamable and can be used as a fuel. There are plenty of other oxides which can be used as fuel.
 

When I was 10, I was a pyromaniac. I spilled some hydrogen peroxide on the cement, threw light a match, and threw it on the peroxide. If I'm not mistaken, it lite on fire. If I'm correct anything that lights on fire can be used as a fuel. But I'm willing to say that I was wrong about this one. I was 10 some time ago. Besides, its totally unrelated.


Totally unrelated? If your argument was that there are plenty of oxides that can be used for fuel, then lighting H2O2 is totally related, if it happened.
The thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Oxides are the product of combustion reactions, the ash, if you will. This is why they are not fuels. The combustion reaction is oxidation of a fuel. Most of the people on this site know this from basic chemistry, and probably assume everyone else does too.

Spent or Oxidized Hydrogen(water) is recyclable into usable fuel, but the cost is more than the net return. It's about like pushing the car to the top of a hill, so you can roll down, then pushing it up again.
-JESOPH-

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #15 on: 18/07/2008 02:38:37 »
dan dan, I just spotted this:
Quote
covalently bonded goodness
Give me strength - whatever is THAT?

I'm not sure, but it sounds like a TV ad "for the delicious covalently bonded goodness of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Pour yourself a glass today!"
-JESOPH-

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lyner

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How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #16 on: 18/07/2008 07:53:47 »
dan dan
You may not realise it but you are, effectively, rejecting the whole of modern Chemistry by what you are implying in your statements.

Perhaps you would let us know which bits you are prepared to accept  then we could establish where it is that Science has all started to go wrong.

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Offline LeeE

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« Reply #17 on: 18/07/2008 15:04:08 »
dan dan

Water is the ash of burnt hydrogen, and as you point out...

Quote
Ash can contain any number of things, none of which will be worth seperating, [sic] because the item has already been combusted.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline rosy

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« Reply #18 on: 18/07/2008 17:43:57 »
sophiecentaur said:

rejecting the whole of modern Chemistry

... and most of physics...

That was what I meant about being either a genius or... something else.

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Offline dan dan

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« Reply #19 on: 18/07/2008 18:01:00 »
This really isn't that hard. I'm not rejecting any modern chemistry laws (I recieved the highest grade in HS chem. (A+), if that helps), nor any theories, nor common scence.

Houndreds of people are using the system that I'm trying to explain to you. So, just to be sure we both know why this insainly simple ideah works, let's set up a little proof.

   STATEMENT                                           REASON

1) Water contains Hydrogen and Oxygen.                Assumed
2) Water is polorized (H positive, O negitive)        Electronegativity difference in Oxygen
3) Electrolysis and other
  (way more efficient methods) can seperate           2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
   water into H and O.
4) Once seperated, Hydrogen, as we know, becomes      Hydrogen reacts with oxygen to
   extremely explosive, and can be used as a fuel.    form water + energy
5) That extra energy, comming from the SPENT water,   Experimentation and results
   can provide energy to your car.
6) That hydrogen wastes less fuel and makes a much    Hydrogen, mixed with gasoline burns  
   more efficient burn, resulting in an increase in   much better than just gasoline.
   MPGs
7) NO energy is gained from anywhere, the system in   2nd law of thermodynamics. Energy can
   your car is simply made more efficient             neither be created or destroyed.
   (normal efficiency runs at about 30%).    

              
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Water is the ash of burnt hydrogen, and as you point out...

Quote

Ash can contain any number of things, none of which will be worth seperating, [sic] because the item has already been combusted.
 
  



ASH: "to apply heat to a material until the material has been reduced to a mineral residue." [SEMATECH]

Residue: "any undesirable material that remains on a substrate after any process step." [ASTM F127-84 and SEMI P3-90]
                                          
newbielink:http://www.chemicool.com/definition/ash.html [nonactive]


Water is neither a substrate, nor an undesirable material, and therefore not a residue. Since it's not a residue, it's also not an ash.


Quote
The thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Oxides are the product of combustion reactions, the ash, if you will. This is why they are not fuels. The combustion reaction is oxidation of a fuel. Most of the people on this site know this from basic chemistry, and probably assume everyone else does too.

We're not throwing a match on water and watching it explode (although, it seems, under certain sircumstances, water can explode: newbielink:http://www.powerlabs.org/waterarc.htm [nonactive]). Yes, water is an OXIDE, but hydrogen isn't. And if you don't think hydrogen can be used as a fuel then you need to go tell the world that they're all wrong.


Quote
Quote from: sophiecentaur on 17/07/2008 18:25:59
dan dan, I just spotted this:

Quote
covalently bonded goodness
Give me strength - whatever is THAT?


I'm not sure, but it sounds like a TV ad "for the delicious covalently bonded goodness of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Pour yourself a glass today!"
    


They get away with selling delicious covalently bonded goodness for upwords of $2 for 20oz. They'd probably be doubling profits if they marketed it as "delicious covalently bonded goodness of Dihydrogen Monoxide"

from FlashBang newbielink:http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20426#20426 [nonactive]
"...the reality is that even if it takes more energy to seperate water than it produces... that does not change the fact that its presence causes a more complete burn of the fossil fuel.

If they need convincing that a more complete burn results in better MPG, refer them to this months issue of Popular Mechanics where they go through some elaborate engine mods to do just that burn more of the fuel in the chamber than the current systems allow."

Also, this tech. is hitting the industry

newbielink:http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9960833-54.html [nonactive]
 

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Offline dan dan

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« Reply #20 on: 18/07/2008 18:02:01 »
Frankly, I'm alright with you calling me a genius.

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Offline Bill G

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« Reply #21 on: 18/07/2008 23:00:08 »
I will try to explain what these guys with the electrolyzers are attempting to do. They are not trying to run their cars or trucks on the hydrogen. They are using the HHO gas as an accelerant. The vapor that comes off the small droplets of gasoline burns at about 4,000 feet per second. Hydrogen in air burns at about 38,000 feet per second. When you do the math, you will see that an engine running at 2000 rpm does not have enough time to completely burn the fuel (the power stroke is only one of the four strokes per rpm). The thought is if you can catch all the fuel on fire at once, rather than waiting for the flame to make its way down from the spark plug and through the gas, you will get a more efficient burn. I hope this sheds some light on what these guys are trying to do.

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lyner

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« Reply #22 on: 19/07/2008 00:33:11 »
That's the nearest thing to sense I've read on this thread. If it works, then it can only be a matter of time before we can buy one for all our cars.
I'd still love to know what "spent water" is, though.

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Offline LeeE

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« Reply #23 on: 19/07/2008 11:43:35 »
Isn't it called 'spent water' because traditionally, it costs a penny to deal with?

Sorry - couldn't help taking the p.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #24 on: 19/07/2008 17:13:33 »
That's the nearest thing to sense I've read on this thread. If it works, then it can only be a matter of time before we can buy one for all our cars.
I'd still love to know what "spent water" is, though.

The origin was my reference to water as spent/oxidized hydrogen. Our "genius" is apparently able to transcend the laws of language, as well as physics and chemistry.   
-JESOPH-

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lyner

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« Reply #25 on: 19/07/2008 23:36:12 »
Back to Lavoisier then?

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #26 on: 20/07/2008 16:35:09 »
I will try to explain what these guys with the electrolyzers are attempting to do. They are not trying to run their cars or trucks on the hydrogen. They are using the HHO gas as an accelerant. The vapor that comes off the small droplets of gasoline burns at about 4,000 feet per second. Hydrogen in air burns at about 38,000 feet per second. When you do the math, you will see that an engine running at 2000 rpm does not have enough time to completely burn the fuel (the power stroke is only one of the four strokes per rpm). The thought is if you can catch all the fuel on fire at once, rather than waiting for the flame to make its way down from the spark plug and through the gas, you will get a more efficient burn. I hope this sheds some light on what these guys are trying to do.

I wish this were the case, but nearly every HHO device that I've seen(there are thousands for sale on ebay right now) comes with the (false)promise that you can use them to run your car on 100% hydrogen, and kick the petroleum habit. Your explanation would probably get less argument(and sell more kits) than their ads.

I have been watching the "acetone dopers", lately. They say that from 1 to 3 ounces of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline(the exact amount depends on the car you drive) improves vaporization and combustion and thus increases mileage. It has also been said to lower hydrocarbon outputs, because of the complete burn.
There are skeptics on this one too, but in this case it is the NON-scientists. Keep in mind that they're not peddling a conversion kit or "magic formula". The only thing it may require is adjusting your car to run "lean". There are sites with a lot of information on the subject, including at least one database listing results by make and model.
-JESOPH-

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #27 on: 20/07/2008 16:38:09 »
Back to Lavoisier then?

Yes! Fillerup with 10 gallons of PHLOGISTON!
-JESOPH-

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Offline Bill G

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« Reply #28 on: 21/07/2008 01:06:32 »
Quote
I wish this were the case, but nearly every HHO device that I've seen(there are thousands for sale on ebay right now) comes with the (false)promise that you can use them to run your car on 100% hydrogen, and kick the petroleum habit. Your explanation would probably get less argument(and sell more kits) than their ads.

I have been watching the "acetone dopers", lately. They say that from 1 to 3 ounces of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline(the exact amount depends on the car you drive) improves vaporization and combustion and thus increases mileage. It has also been said to lower hydrocarbon outputs, because of the complete burn.
There are skeptics on this one too, but in this case it is the NON-scientists. Keep in mind that they're not peddling a conversion kit or "magic formula". The only thing it may require is adjusting your car to run "lean". There are sites with a lot of information on the subject, including at least one database listing results by make and model.

I will have to agree with you about the junk on e-bay and other store fronts on the web. I have seen things that are down right lethal on flashy web sites making wild claims. There are always those who will try to take advantage of other people's ignorance. This, of course, gives everyone working on this a bad name. There are a couple of forums out there trying to get this to work and disclosing what they find, and even there, there are some who make questionable claims or have questionable testing practices. They are at least trying.
  I tried the acetone thing a couple of years ago. I gave each quanity a couple of tank fulls to verify a change. I went to the same station and used the same pump at roughly the same time of day for fuel fill ups. I tried this on a 2002 Chevy Venture and a  2005 VW Jetta diesel. I saw no change in mileage.

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tech30528

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« Reply #29 on: 21/07/2008 03:14:21 »
I will try to explain what these guys with the electrolyzers are attempting to do. They are not trying to run their cars or trucks on the hydrogen. They are using the HHO gas as an accelerant. The vapor that comes off the small droplets of gasoline burns at about 4,000 feet per second. Hydrogen in air burns at about 38,000 feet per second. When you do the math, you will see that an engine running at 2000 rpm does not have enough time to completely burn the fuel (the power stroke is only one of the four strokes per rpm). The thought is if you can catch all the fuel on fire at once, rather than waiting for the flame to make its way down from the spark plug and through the gas, you will get a more efficient burn. I hope this sheds some light on what these guys are trying to do.


Seemed like a good place to start, and this guy seems to explain the theory as well as anyone I've seen.

Ok, a bit of history. I'm a 21 year ASE Master auto tech with an L1 advanced drivability certification. I own a repair shop in NE Georgia. Lately I have been bombarded by people wanting to know if this works, to the point where I started to do research on it. I've seen mason jars with wire , I've seen acrylic cells that look like car batteries, and most lately I saw a cylinder made of PVC pipe that has stainless electrodes in it. This seems to be the most durable and easiest to install design so far. Better yet, the guy who made it has installed it on his car, a 2000 Dodge Durango 4wd with a 5.9L V-8. He claims it went from 13mpg to 22mpg. I'm a bit of a sceptic myself, so I plugged in a scan tool to the car and checked out some parameters. This is what I found.

With the cell disconnected I found the injector on time to be about 6msec. The oxygen sensor was running in the middle of the scale, cycling normally. A few quick stabs on the throttle to load up the exhaust showed a peak oxygen sensor voltage of 1.00 volt, which means it is capable of reading a full rich condition. Short term fuel trim numbers were normal, floating around zero plus or minus a couple of percent. Long term fuel trims were unusually negative.

With the cell turned on and running at normal temperature (130F by my infrared thermometer), Oxygen sensor readings were running about normal, long term fuel trims were unusually negative, short term fuel trims were hovering about 33% negative, and injector on time was running at just a touch over 4msec.

All indications are that this engine really was running on about 50% less gasoline, which is consistant with what he was reporting in gas mileage. I had him build me a cell and installed it on a 1993 Dodge Minivan yesterday for testing. If it works, I'll have some real numbers to report along with more technical data than the "Run Your Car on Water" sites provide. If it doesn't, none of my customers will spend any money on this  and the guy who built the cell (a 65 year old cabinet maker and long time area resident) will be well known for his efforts to defruad people. And I should know within about a week.

Here is what I can tell you so far. Installation was easy, it took about 1 1/2 hours. I ran a relay and fuse for the cell, triggering it off the fuel pump to make sure the cell would only be active when the engine was running. The gas is plumbed in to the manifold thru a single manifold vacuum line (there are other more complex setups, but I wanted to start basic). The cell is running on alternator voltage, running between 12.6 and 14.7 volts, typicly right at 13.7. After the cell warms up, (about 130 degrees F) it is drawing 12.3 amps. I mixed 1 tablespoon of baking soda in to one gallon of distilled water so I would have a consistant "fuel" source for testing purposes. The cell holds 16 ounces full.

From driving it so far, I can tell you that there are no adverse drivability symptoms, if anything the car seems to have a bit better throttle response. Knowing I would be installing this system for testing, I checked the mileage last week, travelling 165 miles on 7.5 gallons of gas. Ok, it was 7.48 gallons to be precise, but I won't be driving the van in a lab. That came out to 22 mpg. I'll drive it for a week to get a couple hundred miles on it before I recalculate, and see how much water it uses. If it works we'll get in to doing some tuning. Finally, this question will be answered once and for all. Honestly, I hope it does work. I service several fleets of vehicles who would love to see this kind of savings, and I could make a couple of bucks installing them. If I was able to save people that kind of money I have no doubt my client list would grow rather quickly. If it doesn't work, at least none of them will get suckered, and I'm out some time and a few dollars in supplies. Either way, I'll win. People who ask me about it are either going to save money at the pump or on the internet.

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #30 on: 22/07/2008 02:23:09 »
Please keep us posted. There are many of us who have been waiting for someone to either prove or disprove this, and who isn't just selling do-it-yourself e-books.
-JESOPH-

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Offline dan dan

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« Reply #31 on: 28/07/2008 15:47:30 »
I'm  glad you're experimenting. We truely need more people out there ready to stick their neck out there to get some true numbers.

I deffinitally used the 'spent water' thing the wrong way. Sorry, my bad. I was thinking off a theory that I had read about somewhere that the way 100% water cars work is by consuming h2o and gaining energy for motion off of that.

There are those who claim 100% water fuel, but there isn't enough evidence to prove whether or not their claims are true. (Stanly Meyer, Daniel Dangle... ect). Personally, I don't think it's at all impossible to run a car completly off of water, but right now I don't have the expertice, nor the capital to start working on something like that, so I'll stick to the little leagues.

A 50% increase is up there. There's claims of 100% increase (doubling millage), which isn't impossible, but is hard to believe. The water4gas system doesn't fully rely on just a water fuel cell (booster), but also impliments a fuel additive, and a fuel heater (somehow attached to the fuel line, so that the fuel is hot before it hits the cylinder (eccpecially helpful before the engine is warmed up) making a cleaner, more efficient burn). I think they may also encourage an increase in tire preasure, which is going to evintually give those cars a bad case of the rollovers and send insurance prices higher.

In my current tank of gas, I put about 2 and 1/2 oz of acetone in before fill up. I know this sounds corky, and I was forcing myself not to allow any dreamy super-effects to occure due to the speculation that they might occur, but I couldn't help but notice a better responce time (eccpecially when flooring it :) and a total elimination of the slight dinging sound that had found it's way into my car a number of months ago. I havn't finished the tank of gas yet (I'm about 1/4 done) but from a guestimation stand poin I'm getting about 40mpg when I should be getting about 36mpg (the way I drive can send the mpg anywhere from 34 (driving like a maniack) to 40 (driving like a grandma). This tank of gas I'm deliberately driving at about 36mpg to see if I can get about a 10% increase (as reported by others) resulting in 40mpg.

I also just purchased a set of Halo spark plugs, which claim a range of mpg increase, depinding of the vehicle. I expect about a 10% increase, kicking my total mpg to around 44mpg (an increase of 22% from the base of 36mpg).

With the water fuel cell, or booster, I only expect about another 10% increase, although this could be more or less (hopefully more). That would bring the efficiency up to around 48mpg (rivaling that of a toyota prius). and there are still other devices to be added, if they sound like a good investment (e.g. the fuel heater and scangauge).

I think it's fair to say that any good DIYer can increase their mpgs by at least 30% for under $200. It's all about making the system more efficient.

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Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #32 on: 06/10/2008 15:00:03 »
Come on people!!! This is garbage!

Sorry to rant - especially to those of you who are unfamiliar with the laws of thermodynamics, but none of this makes sense!

Unless the people on this site are willing to throw centuries of empirical wisdom out the window then concepts such as 'water fuel cells' MUST be immediately debunked and discussed no further.

Just to clarify once & for all (yeah, that's going to stop it!):
1. water CAN be split into Hydrogen & Oxygen by several means, which ALL require energy from an external source.
2. H & O can be reacted together in a mirror image of above process, which will 'return' the energy used in the first place. But, most importantly, the energy returned will be in a less ordered form, meaning it will be impossible to utilise said energy 100% - in a useful form like mechanical work.

These statements conform to the first & second laws of thermodynamics.
I implore all those here new to the thermodynamic laws to, please, just read up on them a little. This might be a good place to start:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A467714

For those others of you still wanting to discuss 'water fuel cells' or other 'new theories', please can we at least stay in the realms of reason.  Just as I would never be arrogant enough to claim that there remain no fundamental concepts of science still to be discovered, I respectively take affront at what seems a constant desire by some individuals to take the odd piece of circumstantial evidence from some bloke in a shed as a reason to dismiss the laws that underpin our modern technological & scientific world as wrong.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2008 15:05:20 by peppercorn »

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #33 on: 09/10/2008 03:01:03 »
which equation

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Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #34 on: 10/10/2008 09:25:03 »
erickejah: 'which equation', what?

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Offline labview1958

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« Reply #35 on: 11/10/2008 15:36:39 »
In my country there is a professor going around saying that he is able to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond. The frequency generator is powered by the car battery. It breaks a H-O bond which causes a chain reaction that causes more bonds to be broken. Something like a chain reaction for U-235. Thus very little energy is required to break H-O bonds.
 

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Offline syhprum

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« Reply #36 on: 24/10/2008 13:59:37 »
I think some of the myths about running cars on water stem's from the early years of motor vehicles when only very low octane petrol was available and engines had expansion ratios (commonly called compression ratios) of about 4 to 1.
Equipment was available to inject water with the fuel enabling a higher expansion ratio to be used without pre ignition raising the output of the engine.
pressent day fuels have an octane rating of between 90 and 100 and this system would serve little purpose 
syhprum

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Offline labview1958

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« Reply #37 on: 10/11/2008 08:22:21 »
Is it possible to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond?
 

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Offline labview1958

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« Reply #38 on: 18/11/2008 15:15:45 »
Can we buy HHO and put into our car?
 

How do water fuel cells work?
« Reply #39 on: 18/11/2008 21:00:26 »
Here is an idea...

Use dam power or solar power, or some other form of natural energy to produce an amount of fuel from water. Then use that as starting fuel to operate a motor, that will send more electricity into a hydrolisis.

Maybe the thing to do is not to try to seperate the molecules within the cars, but rather to put them in the car like we do with gasoline.

Critique please.

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Offline rosy

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« Reply #40 on: 19/11/2008 09:26:19 »
OIND:
I think the reason not to do that (assuming the "fuel" you're suggesting be generated is hydrogen from electrolysis of water) is that petrol is actually much less reactive than hydrogen, and burns in oxygen under conditions where hydrogen would explode. Since the sudden release of energy over a very short time period which occurs in an explosion will tend to damage the engine, it's not such a good idea.

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Offline backgroundwhitenoise

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« Reply #41 on: 23/11/2008 18:30:06 »
Umm... well there is (potentially) a way to run your car, well mabey not a car but an electrical generator of of water, I havnt ever heard of somone trying it, because I dought somone has, its dangerous but all it really takes is hydrogen as a fuel, which as we said can be taken from water. Now im not suggesting we burn the hydrogen and turn it back into water, no that as has been stated would give less energy back than it took to make the hydrogen, no what you do to get enormous amounts of energy is to take the hydrogen molecules, and somehow (i believe this is done with lots of pressure) bond the hydrogen protons together to form another element, it's nuclear fusion, what makes the sun shine, it could yield unheard of amounts of energy and I'm sure we could run a car on the energy created by it, unfortunately this is completely impractical because eventually we would just run out of hydrogen like any other fuel could and this would be something nature dose not re create, now ironically enough someone used the term "modern alchemy" earlier, well if you combined enough protons to make the element gold you would be successfully doing what the alchemists of ancient times tried so hard to accomplish. But again, this would be a dangerous and irresponsible thing to attempt and rather than make your car move, it would probably make it explode

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Offline lancenti

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« Reply #42 on: 09/01/2009 08:41:35 »
I think nuclear fusion is far too dangerous for us to be playing with in our own cars, especially when a collision occurs. I'd like to not be inside a miniature sun, ever.

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lyner

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« Reply #43 on: 09/01/2009 13:36:54 »
In my country there is a professor going around saying that he is able to use a certain frequency to break the H-O bond. The frequency generator is powered by the car battery. It breaks a H-O bond which causes a chain reaction that causes more bonds to be broken. Something like a chain reaction for U-235. Thus very little energy is required to break H-O bonds.
Either he's not a real Professor or you didn't understand what he's saying.
Yes, of course, an appropriate frequency of electromagnetic wave can break the bonds.
The problem is, as ever, that the energy returned by the bonds re-forming cannot be more than the energy which was put in. There will always be significant losses in any such system so it's a non-starter, I'm afraid.
There is not the slightest doubt, where water is concerned, that this idea is not viable. Keep your money.

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #44 on: 10/01/2009 00:56:07 »
I had a discussion with a "almost" relative a few months ago about this water for fuel idea. I could not get far since the discussion had to be in French (which I cannot speak well enough) or English (which he cannot speak well enough). In any case, he had a friend who claimed to have had success with this. I found my "relative" a website that explained this nonsense well. http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml. This guy offers 1 million dollar for the first one to demonstrate 25% of fuel savings. He says, not one person has even applied.

The process may result in some real fuel savings because your engine's fuel sensors are tricked into running the engine leaner. Leaner than it is good for the engine. Of course running leaner saves gas, but what is the point if you destroy you engine in the process? AND it is not using the water as an energy source either.

Karsten
« Last Edit: 10/01/2009 01:02:45 by Karsten »
I got annoyed with looking
at my own signature

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #45 on: 10/01/2009 01:13:44 »
... no what you do to get enormous amounts of energy is to take the hydrogen molecules, and somehow (i believe this is done with lots of pressure) bond the hydrogen protons together to form another element, it's nuclear fusion, ...

Yeah, SOMEHOW. I think several industrialized nations have supported some of their best engineers and physicists who have been working on this for several decades with billions of dollars spent and a few seconds of working fusion in all those years. Don't worry about it working for your car. It has not worked much at all at any scale and no matter how much money was available. Don't hope very hard that it will help us with our energy needs in the foreseeable future.

Karsten
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Offline starblazer2007

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« Reply #46 on: 06/02/2009 02:27:28 »
With regards to HHO debate, I have recently fitted an HHO unit to a fleet operater's vehicle.
This vehicle was tested at an independent accredited emission testing station and driven by the operator for 1900km at which time it was retested at the same test station, the results are:
NOx reduced 74.12%
CO2 reduced 15.43%
Now this is the one I want to know why PM-LLSP increased 120.6%
Opacity Av(%)reduced 97.89%
Opacity Max(%) reduced 93.26%
Power dropped 1.41%
Torque dropped 4.98%
Fuel economy increased by 34.08%
These are not my figures they are all independent. So something seems to be working.

g/km
NOX            0.456 reduced to 0.118
C02            447.9 reduced to 378.8
PM-LLSP(mg/--) 0.403 increased to 0.889
Opacity Av(%)  2.707 decreased to 0.057
Opacity Max(%) 9.758 reduced to 0.658
Power          99.437kW reduced to 98.0389
Torque         298.453 Nm@Rear Wheels reduced to 283.599 Nm

The Vehicle is a 6cyl V6 3.6L fuel injected  petrol engine(91 octane).
The emission test was a DT80 done by a local government test station.
Given that the opacity is so much clearer the PM figure seems off.
That's why I believe it could be water vapour the test is picking up.
Does anyone else have a theory on the PM increase?
In any respect the figures seem to be pretty good to me.






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Offline Vern

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« Reply #47 on: 06/02/2009 14:53:08 »
Why do propositions that are the wrongest take the mostest words to propose?  [:)] [:)]

Water is the ash you get when you burn H and O, as several have already stated.

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #48 on: 09/02/2009 00:24:00 »
Here's an article on it: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

 [:o]"Most people don't realize how energy intensive aluminum is," Woodall said. "For every pound of aluminum you get more than two kilowatt hours of energy in the form of hydrogen combustion and more than two kilowatt hours of heat from the reaction of aluminum with water. [:o]

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lyner

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« Reply #49 on: 09/02/2009 10:38:44 »
And how much energy do you think an Aluminium Refinery uses to get the Aluminium out of the ore?