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what do you believe

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is the big bang correct?

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #200 on: 24/07/2009 06:58:58 »
Oliver,
you have made a number of detailed statements in your last few posts. Some of these I have reservations about - your meteorite data, for example, is outdated and wrong. I am currently studying everything you have written to determine what is important in your argument, before responding.
Rgds
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Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline om

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« Reply #201 on: 25/07/2009 05:15:21 »
Oliver,

. . . . - your meteorite data, for example, is outdated and wrong. I am currently studying . . . before responding.
Rgds
O.

Take your time, Ophiolite, but don't waste your time.

Very few, if any, of my conclusions rest solely on data from my laboratory:

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/MassSpec.htm

Usually I use the best data available.  For example,

1. This table of extinct elements that were alive when supernova debris formed meteorites is based on data from the best research laboratories worldwide - Australia, France, India, and the United States [University of Arkansas, University of California-Berkeley, Cal Tech, and the University of California-San Diego]:

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1960Data.htm

2. This graph shows Ne isotopes that I measured in the Fayetteville meteorite while in the laboratory of Professor John H. Reynolds at UC-Berkeley:

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1964Data.htm

3. This is a graph of data from my laboratory at the University of Missouri showing that isotopes of Kr and Xe in the solar wind have been mass fractionated.

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1972Data1.htm

4. This graph is based on He and Xe in the Allende meteorite as measured in Professor Edward Anders' laboratory at the University of Chicago:

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1975Data.htm

5. This graph of mass fractionated isotopes in the solar wind is based on measurements in Professor Geiss' laboratory at the University of Bern (Switzerland), in Professor Reynolds' laboratory at the University of California-Berkeley, and in Professor A. O. Nier's laboratory the University of Minnesota:

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1983Data.htm

6. This graph of oxygen isotopes in various classes of meteorites and planets is based on data from Robert Clayton's laboratory at the University of Chicago.

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1976Data.htm

7. This graph of molybdenum isotopes - showing that massive iron meteorites came directly from a supernova - is from measurements made at the University of Tokyo.

http://www.omatumr.com/Data/1991Data.htm

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
http://www.omatumr.com
« Last Edit: 28/07/2009 04:11:57 by om »

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Offline Naufal the B. S.

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« Reply #202 on: 25/07/2009 08:42:47 »
what do you believe, man!?

I think the creationism. If you're not atheist

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Offline TSE

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« Reply #203 on: 26/07/2009 00:54:21 »
First time poster here,.....

I have a pretty unique idea for explaining the origin of the universe and the Big Bang and have considered spending some time to write a movie script revolving around a cool sci-fi movie that allows the audience to unveil the mysteries of the Universe and solve the question of where it came from and why etc. 

My questions are:

1)  What would you people say is your interest level in seeing a movie like this, as well as what would you say is the interest level for the general public?

2)  What kind of ideas can you come up with that would make for a good sci-fi explanation of what the true answer is surrounding the mystery of the Big Bang and/or the creation of the Universe?


The idea I have come up with has nothing to do with the Big Crunch or any of the common theories, the objective is I'm trying to come up with something that nobody would think of to create some intrigue and entertainment value, not necessarily using the best scientific explanations, after all it is a movie!

And of course if somebody can come up with a better or neater idea than mine, I will make contact with that person and offer them a movie credit or possibly a writing consulting position if/when I get this script put together!
« Last Edit: 26/07/2009 00:58:37 by TSE »

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Offline pshmell

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« Reply #204 on: 26/07/2009 18:08:04 »
Anyone read about the Big Bounce theory?

It includes partially the Big Bang theory, but it is a cyclic model for the Universe, with no definite starting point, and no definite ending point.

Imagine it this way: the Universe is this push and pull, ebb and flow: entropy vs. gravity. While entropy is always increasing, gravity is as well. And in the form of black holes, the Universe will eventually coalesce into one. But JUST before it gets to that singularity, that zero-volume, infinite density singularity (it never ACTUALLY reaches that limit, jpetrucelli, just like entropy never reaches its limit), the quantum gravitational forces become repulsive rather than attractive, and entropy takes back over in a marvelous explosion we know as a Big Bang. And things expand at magnificent speeds with ever increasing entropy, until gravity gets a stronger grip on the matter in the Universe, and crunches it all into a black hole again.  And so it goes, expand, contract, expand, contract, etc.

Criticisms of the theory include objections on the grounds that this model would violate the second law of thermodynamics.
But just because the force of gravity is stronger than the force of entropy in a black hole, that doesn't mean that entropy isn't increasing.
The stronger Gravity tightens its grip, the more Entropy wants to break free, like a gas in a container that is decreasing in volume. Like a bomb. And just when Gravity thinks it's got the Universe where it wants it, Entropy breaks free; the bomb explodes.

Intriguingly reminiscent of Taoist philosophy:
"In order to contract a thing, one should surely expand it first.
In order to weaken, one will surely strengthen first.
In order to overthrow, one will surely exalt first.
In order to take, one will surely give first.
This is called subtle wisdom."

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Offline om

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« Reply #205 on: 28/07/2009 01:53:06 »
MORE ON THE BIG BANG
(WHILE WAITING FOR THE RESPONSE FROM A GEOLOGIST)


Prayer for Serenity in Science:

"Grant me the serenity to accept WHAT IS.
Courage to challenge my own beliefs toward WHAT IS.
Wisdom to know that attitudes may distort perception of WHAT IS,
But attitudes cannot change WHAT IS."

- - - adapted from Reinhold Niebuhr

WHAT IS: [Established by fifty (50) years of measurements and contemplation along the road less traveled!]

01. Neutron-neutron interactions are repulsive, NOT attractive.

02. Neutron stars are highly energized, NOT "dead" nuclear embers.

03. Neutron repulsion prevents the collapse of neutron stars into Black Holes.

04. Neutron repulsion primarily powers the Sun and the cosmos.

05. After neutron-emission, neutron-decay produces Hydrogen (H).

06. The Sun discards 50,000 billion metric ton of solar-wind H annually.

07. Hydrogen (H) covers stellar surfaces, but stars are NOT balls of H.

08. Compact nuclear objects dissociate to fill interstellar space with H.

09. Interstellar H is a waste product of, not fuel for, the cosmic engine.

10. Massive neutron stars at galactic centers produce H and cosmic explosions.

CONCLUSIONS:

Today we have evidence that the Sun, other stars, and galactic centers are powered by nuclear dissociation that releases Hydrogen to interstellar space as a waste product. 

Therefore if there really was a "Big Bang" then it produced neutrons and compressed them into massive neutron stars -- the most compact, energetic form of nuclear matter -- rather than Hydrogen, the most dispersed form of nuclear matter. 

The concept of a "Big Bang" became more plausible to me after reading the recent paper by Coyne and D. C. Cheng ["A Scenario for Strong Gravity in Particle Physics:  An alternative mechanism for black holes to appear at accelerator experiments," http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.1667v1 ].  According to that scenario, neutrons themselves may be considered as particle-sized black holes that were made in the "Big Bang."

On the other hand if the universe is infinite, then it probably oscillates between:

a.) The expansion that is observed currently as interstellar space is filled with Hydrogen from neutron decay, and

b.) A subsequent contraction after the neutron stars have evaporated and gravitational forces become dominant.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
http://www.omatumr.com


 

« Last Edit: 29/07/2009 22:02:02 by om »

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #206 on: 07/08/2009 16:34:23 »
Oliver,
I regret that I will have to pend further discussion for the forseeable future. My thinking in relation to another poster in a separate sub-forum is out of synch with forum moderation. The honourable thing for me to do is to absent myself for a time. I apologise for the impact this will have on what could have been an interesting discussion.
Regards
Ophiolite
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline om

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« Reply #207 on: 10/08/2009 15:18:00 »
CONFIRMATION OF WHAT WAS 10,000,000,000 YEARS AGO

The 20 July 2009 issue of Ap J provides new information on ultra-compact, hyperactive galaxies in the universe about 10^10 years ago [M. Kreik, P. G. van Dokkum, I. Labbe, M. Frank, G. Illingworth, D. Marchesini and R. F. Quadri, Astrophysical  Journal 700 (20 July 2009) 221-231].

http://hubblesite.org/pubinfo/pdf/2009/24/pdf2.pdf

See also the news story and discussion of the implications of these findings on the PhysOrg site:

http://www.physorg.com/news168698290.html

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
http://www.omatumr.com


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Offline krytie75

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« Reply #208 on: 10/08/2009 22:11:42 »
I believe that every single planet grows and ultimately decays when it becomes too greater a mass to remain stable and that the immense pressures caused by every single atomic particle pushing against opposing particles generated at the core of the Earth will eventually cause our own planet to heat up and become a sun and inevitably decompose sending the atoms once again to migrate across an infinite Universe.

That is quite bizarre.

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Offline om

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« Reply #209 on: 13/08/2009 11:42:44 »
A DOZEN SCIENCE STUDENTS

I want to draw special attention to twelve of the hundreds of devoted family members and talented teachers, students, friends, and colleagues that made possible My Journey to the Core of the Sun: A Summary of Fifty Joyful Years of Continuous Discovery [Autobiography, in preparation].

1. Golden Hwaung coauthored the landmark 1983 paper showing the Sun, the Earth, and ordinary meteorites are all made mostly of the same elements: Iron (Fe), Oxygen (O), Nickel (Ni), Silicon (Si) and Sulfur (S) ["Solar abundance of the elements", Meteoritics 18 (1983) 209-222].  A picture of Golden Hwaung about 20 years later in his Electrical Engineering laboratory at Louisiana State University is posted in the Photo Gallery on my web page. 

2. Ken Windler, Adam Nolte, Lucie Johannes, Dan Ragland and Joshua Zirbel were undergraduate students at the University of Missouri-Rolla in 1998 who analyzed isotope data from the Galileo probe of Jupiter's atmosphere to confirm the 1983 paper published 15 years earlier ["Isotopic ratios in Jupiter confirm intra-solar diffusion", Meteoritics and Planetary Science 33,  A97 (1998) abstract 5011].  A 1998 picture of the five students - UMR's Jupiter Team - is posted in the Photo Gallery on my web page. 

3. Marcel Pleessl was a high school student in Germany who came to the University of Missouri-Rolla and used neutron capture cross sections to confirm the 1983 paper showing that the interior of the Sun consists mostly of Fe, O, Ni, Si and S [Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry 266 (2005) 159-163].  Marcel is now a university student.  A picture of Marcel when he was still a high school student working on the research described in this JRANC article is posted in the Photo Gallery on my web page. 

4. Cynthia Bolon, Shelonda Finch, Daniel Ragland, Matthew Seelke, and Bing Zhang were five graduate students at the University of Missouri-Rolla who helped discover evidence of repulsive interactions between neutrons in rest masses of 3,000 nuclei posted in Message ID: 265523 (23/07/2009).  Photographs of some of these graduate students are posted in the Photo Gallery on my web page. 

The ever-evolving nature of science, continuously changing across the lives of successive generations, is illustrated by contributions of these twelve high school, undergraduate and graduate students in the latter part of my research career and the guidance that I received from two well established scientists at its start, almost fifty (50) years ago on that fateful day in 1960 when Professor Paul Kazuo Kuroda called me to his office to share surprising evidence that the solar system formed almost immediately after violent nuclear reactions in a supernova produced our elements:

A. Kuroda's paper on the decay products of extinct plutonium-244 in air [“Nuclear fission in the early history of the Earth”, Nature 187 (1960) 36-38], and

B. John H. Reynolds' landmark papers on the decay product of extinct iodine-129 [“Determination of the age of the elements”, Physical Review Letters 4 (1960) 8-10] and a "strange" mixture of the nine stable xenon isotopes in meteorites [“Isotopic composition of primordial xenon”, Physical Review Letters 4 (1960) 351-354].

I had the good fortune to have both of these talented scientists as research mentors.  My research career is, in fact, an extension of studies that Kuroda and Reynolds started when I was a child, and they each worked on defense projects—on opposing sides of the Second World War.

Looking forward to a seventy-third (73rd) birthday in a couple of months, my life and my research career confirm the vision of life that Shakespeare expressed through Jaques in the play, As You Like It:

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages."
 

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
http://www.omatumr.com
« Last Edit: 15/08/2009 12:46:53 by om »

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lyner

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« Reply #210 on: 14/08/2009 15:07:50 »
Is this anything more than an advert?
Does it belong on this thread?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #211 on: 14/08/2009 21:01:16 »
Is this anything more than an advert?
Does it belong on this thread?

Yup appears to be an advert to me too. OM you need to justify that last post
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline om

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« Reply #212 on: 14/08/2009 23:03:49 »
CONCLUSION TO DIALOGUE WITH A GEOLOGIST

Oliver,

I regret that I will have to pend further discussion for the forseeable future. My thinking in relation to another poster in a separate sub-forum is out of synch with forum moderation. The honourable thing for me to do is to absent myself for a time. I apologise for the impact this will have on what could have been an interesting discussion.

Regards
Ophiolite

Thanks, Ophiolite.

I am sorry if my last posting appeared to be an advertisement.  Before closing, I wanted to let Naked Science Forum Readers know of the important contributions made by high school, graduate and undergraduate students, as well as other colleagues.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
http://www.omatumr.com

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #213 on: 16/08/2009 13:28:13 »
Please stop spamming your website in your posts - if people are really interested in what you have to say, they will look at your profile.

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #214 on: 15/09/2009 22:43:06 »
what do you believe?

No. Due to the mounting of errors, it seems wrong. Read this please, by me:

The Big Bang; The beginning of time and problems

The First Incongruity

Is the Universe in Ground State or an Excited State?

A ground state object is when it arranges it's inhabitents to a specific harmony in which ''tunes'' the use of these components to use as very little energy
 as possible. When concerning some birth of the universe, did the universe choose to be in a ground state?

In the principle of least action, it seems that a ground state universe would have begun much like the laws that govern a ground state atom. An atom in a
ground state will arrange it's electrons to a specific frequency which allows it to yield as little energy as possible. But to do this, it would need to
make sure to give up certain properties of location with respect with one another (1).

If our universe did begin in a ground state then the laws of physics cannot permit it to have any unique radius or time, or even a beginning. A ground state
 universe could not have begun therego as a singular region (2) in spacetime with a sturcture similar to a black hole. Instead of a singular region in the
center of this black hole, there would be a wormhole at its center.

If it didn't it would have to have chosen an excited state, where there will be a point eventually where the universe will quantum leap into a new state,
and a catastrophic reduction of energy will unfold. This means that the energy contained in this universe could in the future vanish totally from this
spacetime realm, and quite possibly ''seep'' through womrholes into another universe which is in a ground state.

The second Incongruity

There was not enough time to start the universe!

The second problem, after visiting whether this universe began in a ground state of an excited state arises from how much time the universe was allowed
initially to begin with. In fact, according to the models we originally worked with, the universe began with a finite and yet small radius - about the size
 of a human blood cell. But as we are reminded by Doctor Wolf, as small as this was, it still was not small enough to allow time present to account for
photons to reach all the spacetime we observe today. It's not enough time therego to allow a balanced condition in the background micr0wave temperatures to
be homogeneous (3).

The Third Incongruity

The universe had to expand faster than light!

So, because we have a model of the big bang which did not fit the discription of what we are observing in the vast universe, we had to allow even more
changes. To give the universe more time, we have to begin it from a much smaller size, but to also balance (a reasonably smooth background radiation),
we also had to invite the idea of the particle called the Inflaton, and an entirely new and almost proposterous concept called The Inflationary Phase of
the universe where spacetime expanded faster than the speed of light. Fine tuning opportunists took hold of this an asked exactly why inflation began when
it did. But more importantly, if inflation is just a mathematical trick which it seems to be then a beginning of time is very troublesome for any modern day
 concept of big bang.

The Fourth Incongruity

Something Came from Nothing?

And yet, this is the best to come. With the New Physics overuling the classical, we could no longer think of the universe beginning as simply as saying
''it just came into existence.'' With the wave function governing every possibility in the universe, we now have to deal with an absurd model where the
universe had at its disposal, an infinite amount of choices it could have chose from... infinitely a many amount of universe which could never have
sustained life, and an infinite amount of universes which could, and even an infinite amount of possibilities where the universe simply wouldn't have shown
 up at all.

The problem here is simple - and let us assume first that the infinite amount of universes are actually finite. Why this universe out of so many?

The Fifth Incongruity

Parallel Universes and its Conceptual Nonesense

To answer this problem, many scientists have adopted the parallel universe model of physics to reconcile why this universe came into existence. It seems
that from this particular model, each and every universe that was a possibility did come into existence. But the consequences are almost just as bizarre,
because not only do we have equally many universes (an infinite amount to be exact), we also have an infinite amount of universe overlapping each other in
a myriad of superpositioning where everytime something comes into contact with anything else, or even a mere observation would send all these superpositioned
univeres flying apart, and then to emerge again with new born universes. It's like having a coin. Flip a coin, and not only do the universes fly apart, but
in this universe you are left with either a heads or a tails, but at the same time, an entire universe has been created ''somewhere out there,'' where you
are standing with the opposite result. If you think that is strange, imagine you stopped to flip a coin a hundred times... you would create exactly
1,267,650,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 universes! That is by scientific notation, a little over 10^30 to be exact, you would create a massive number
 of universe [possibilities] that have now been turned into the real manifestation just as much as ours!

This easy creation of universes disturbs many physicists, and most of all, one of the largest proponents whom it disturbed came in the skin called Fred Hoyle
, a famous astrophysicist who took his contempt for the beginning of the universe to the grave.

(1) - See Wolf's ''Parallel Universes, 1985'' pg 192
(2) - A singularity says that some point of spacetime possesses a negative region where every peice of matter and every bit of energy and even the spacetime itself is blown into unimaginal proportions.
(3) - Actually, we often read that the background temperatures aka (the radiation in all parts of the universe) is homogeneous and smooth. We are often not told however that it is not completely smooth. We have to allow about a degree of a 10,000th part of error in each ''direction'' of the universe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

 ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿̿'\̵͇̿̿\=(●̪•)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿̿̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿ ̿

٩๏̯͡๏۶

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Offline Tintin_Triton

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is the big bang correct?
« Reply #215 on: 28/09/2009 08:15:27 »
Yes I do believe that the Big Bang theory is correct, at least it is the best to bet on. No one can prove that the Big bang is correct or not. But yes we can say that mathematically it is absolutely correct.

Come to think of it- the microwave background radiation, and then the proof that the universe is expanding. These two are observations and we cannot disprove them. They conclude that the Universe must have been very close together at one moment in time. So that is and will be called as the big bang.
Before that- ah! I don't think we need to delve there. That part was before time itself, so i guess we can't say that anything was before that point of time.

So those are reasons I am forced to believe in the Big bang theory.

"A Gem is not polished without friction, nor man perfected without trials"
----Chinese Proverb

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #216 on: 28/09/2009 14:25:28 »
Quote from: Tintin_Triton
Come to think of it- the microwave background radiation, and then the proof that the universe is expanding. These two are observations and we cannot disprove them.
The observations are correct, however the conclusions we reach based upon them are merely assumptions. We assume that the CMBR is the cooled down remnants of the Big Bang. It might simply be the temperature reached by cosmic debris as it is warmed by starlight. We assume that the universe is expanding because we assume that the red shift is a Doppler effect. There are other assumptions we could make that would explain the observations without the need to violate natures laws.

The Big Bang Theory requires a violation of the natural laws, at least in its early stages.

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Offline werc

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« Reply #217 on: 28/11/2009 14:25:37 »
maybe the Big bang model miss this particular force:
http://www.albertavevaragione.com/index.php?id=15&lang=en

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Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #218 on: 28/11/2009 16:34:13 »
The observations are correct, however the conclusions we reach based upon them are merely assumptions. We assume that the CMBR is the cooled down remnants of the Big Bang.
It is more correct to say that the standard cosmological model takes the CMB to be the photons that last interacted with the matter of the universe at a very dense state. This is the same matter that is all around us.
Quote
It might simply be the temperature reached by cosmic debris as it is warmed by starlight.
This is something that it cannot be. Even the best available theory that accounts for the background radiation as light with reradiated light, quasi-steady state cosmology, has as part of its explanation massive contraction of space in the past. And even this cannot account for all our observations. There are simply too many particular features of the background radiation for it to be reradiated light. For one thing, there would have to bee too much dust in intergalactic space for us to see more than a few galaxies.
Quote
We assume that the universe is expanding because we assume that the red shift is a Doppler effect.
The standard cosmological model does not assume that the redshift is due to a doppler effect. The redshift is due to another source.
Quote
There are other assumptions we could make that would explain the observations without the need to violate natures laws.
Hunh?
Quote
The Big Bang Theory requires a violation of the natural laws, at least in its early stages.
Hunh?

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Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #219 on: 28/11/2009 16:42:09 »
The First Incongruity

Is the Universe in Ground State or an Excited State?

A ground state object is when it arranges it's inhabitents to a specific harmony in which ''tunes'' the use of these components to use as very little energy
 as possible. When concerning some birth of the universe, did the universe choose to be in a ground state?
This is a strange problem. I am not sure that we can any means by which to distinuigh different beginnings of the universe from any other. Regardless, the standard model of cosmology doesn't actually include the beginning of the universe, much like evolutionary theory does not include the first life on Earth.
Quote
The second Incongruity

There was not enough time to start the universe!

The second problem, after visiting whether this universe began in a ground state of an excited state arises from how much time the universe was allowed
initially to begin with. In fact, according to the models we originally worked with, the universe began with a finite and yet small radius - about the size
 of a human blood cell. But as we are reminded by Doctor Wolf, as small as this was, it still was not small enough to allow time present to account for
photons to reach all the spacetime we observe today. It's not enough time therego to allow a balanced condition in the background micr0wave temperatures to
be homogeneous (3).
I have no idea where you are getting these figures. The standard cosmological model does run back to a time where the distances that we currently see out to were constricted to a small region, but it is unknown so far whether or not the entire universe is finite or infinite in spacial extent. The time between that small region and today works out fine.
Quote
The Third Incongruity

The universe had to expand faster than light!
This is not an incongruity, and it is something that the universe is still doing. Regions far away from us are expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. This is something entirely kosher according to general relativity and does not require inflation, which is an entirely separate physical theory.
Quote
The Fourth Incongruity

Something Came from Nothing?
If nothing existed at one time, then who knows what the rules of something coming in to being are? Regardless, the standard cosmological model doesn't speak of this.
Quote
The Fifth Incongruity

Parallel Universes and its Conceptual Nonesense
Again, not required by standard model.

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #220 on: 28/11/2009 17:22:27 »
The First Incongruity

Is the Universe in Ground State or an Excited State?

A ground state object is when it arranges it's inhabitents to a specific harmony in which ''tunes'' the use of these components to use as very little energy
 as possible. When concerning some birth of the universe, did the universe choose to be in a ground state?
This is a strange problem. I am not sure that we can any means by which to distinuigh different beginnings of the universe from any other. Regardless, the standard model of cosmology doesn't actually include the beginning of the universe, much like evolutionary theory does not include the first life on Earth.
Quote
The second Incongruity

There was not enough time to start the universe!

The second problem, after visiting whether this universe began in a ground state of an excited state arises from how much time the universe was allowed
initially to begin with. In fact, according to the models we originally worked with, the universe began with a finite and yet small radius - about the size
 of a human blood cell. But as we are reminded by Doctor Wolf, as small as this was, it still was not small enough to allow time present to account for
photons to reach all the spacetime we observe today. It's not enough time therego to allow a balanced condition in the background micr0wave temperatures to
be homogeneous (3).
I have no idea where you are getting these figures. The standard cosmological model does run back to a time where the distances that we currently see out to were constricted to a small region, but it is unknown so far whether or not the entire universe is finite or infinite in spacial extent. The time between that small region and today works out fine.
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The Third Incongruity

The universe had to expand faster than light!
This is not an incongruity, and it is something that the universe is still doing. Regions far away from us are expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. This is something entirely kosher according to general relativity and does not require inflation, which is an entirely separate physical theory.
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The Fourth Incongruity

Something Came from Nothing?
If nothing existed at one time, then who knows what the rules of something coming in to being are? Regardless, the standard cosmological model doesn't speak of this.
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The Fifth Incongruity

Parallel Universes and its Conceptual Nonesense
Again, not required by standard model.
Physbang... i think you have picked up many things incorrectly and may require reading through that work again... because for instance, most of the questions are intentionally rhetorical and you are answering them with some kind of personal disgreement? Also, you questioned th figures...The figures existed before we invited inflation, hence, you need to re-read it i think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

 ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿̿'\̵͇̿̿\=(●̪•)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿̿̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿ ̿

٩๏̯͡๏۶

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« Reply #221 on: 28/11/2009 23:50:08 »
No, I think I got it. You raised a number of what you think are problems that really aren't problems for any scientific theory that currently exists.
« Last Edit: 28/11/2009 23:56:27 by PhysBang »

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« Reply #222 on: 23/12/2009 03:11:21 »
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

Just check it up, there is not only big bang

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« Reply #223 on: 26/12/2009 00:54:51 »
All good points my friends! My opinion is as follows: As we are aware at a time long ago everyone believe with 100% certainty the world was flat and the sun orbited the planet. Then Sir Issac and may other showed that theory was wrong and the earth was found to be round and the earth orbited the sun. Time went by and Elbert really understand the universe with much better and proven theories. In order for Sir Issac to better understand and explain the universe he had to study analyze and actually develop a new form of math to explain how things work. As we sit here today we have a few as Hawkings and Penrose who have take us a further into a better understanding however again when you have hundreds or thousands of models that work obviously none are more likely the correct however we should and will continue working until the next truly gifted genius is born and can understand that the math we use is in correct and a new mathematical form or type of math needs to be developed to take us to the next level of understanding and closer to the truth and not just a solution. Much like I believe M theory may take us closer to the truth and not just a solution, every time the solution does not work we change the universe not the math..if 6 dimensions do not work make it 10 and if that does not make it 11 or 50 etc...my opinion is we are not that far along from believing the world is flat and the sun orbits earth, to come close the truth and not just a mathematical solution...if any of that make sense.... Happy Holidays to all!               

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« Reply #224 on: 26/12/2009 13:19:18 »
Around about the turn of the twentieth century some gifted mathematicians had it all nailed down pretty well. However, we rejected the implications of their proofs. Since their proofs were based upon cause and effect, we decided that cause and effect does not matter. We have never found even one single piece of evidence that rejects their proof.

We never found fault with the poofs. We rejected without evidence their indications.

The proofs are the Lorentz Transforms. The premise nailed down was: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

Stated more simply: Everything in the universe consists of electromagnetic fields and nothing else exists.
« Last Edit: 18/01/2010 12:59:39 by Vern »

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« Reply #225 on: 15/02/2010 14:33:01 »
what do you believe?

According to the Big Bang model, the physical universe has expanded from an extremely dense and hot state and continues to expand today. The model suggests in the expansion of space every celestial object in 13.7 billion years has reached its current time-dilated spatial location in a timeline according to the trajectory of the celestial object in its expanded space.

Nonetheless, the furthest observable galaxy Abell 1835 IR1916 has been observed near the CMBR boundary and this is believed to be a sight when the Universe was merely 500 million years young; this is a scientific evidence that at 13.2 billion years ago that furthest galaxy was already at that spatial location and it had developed to a galaxy of significant size. If the expansion of space had brought that galaxy there in 500 million years with the Big Bang expansion, the observed time-dilated image of the primordial galaxy at 500 million years young would not be able to appear at that spatial location in that 13.2 billion year timeline; the Big Bang model that suggests Universe was created in an explosion from a small hot ball is logically fallacious.

This Big Bang model postulation is inconsistence in its logical framework, although in its hypothetical construct it is mathematically valid, it is logically erroneous, and therefore is unthinkable; no thought experiment could work for such a scenario. Put on a logic thinking cap and ask the question on how could the time-dilated image with a 500 million years young scenario of that primordial galaxy appear at the 13.2 billion year timeline in a Big Bang expansion; it is simply impossible.
 
It is only logical to think that at 13.2 billion years ago, that distant galaxy was already formed there at that spatial location. In absolute time it would have travelled to a further spatial location according to its trajectory.

IMHO, the concept-based expansion of space in the Big Bang theory is an erroneous assumption at the fundamental level and therefore its propositions are logically fallacious.

« Last Edit: 15/02/2010 14:49:29 by Vincent Wee-Foo »
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« Reply #226 on: 15/02/2010 16:47:08 »
Nonetheless, the furthest observable galaxy Abell 1835 IR1916 has been observed near the CMBR boundary and this is believed to be a sight when the Universe was merely 500 million years young; this is a scientific evidence that at 13.2 billion years ago that furthest galaxy was already at that spatial location and it had developed to a galaxy of significant size. If the expansion of space had brought that galaxy there in 500 million years with the Big Bang expansion, the observed time-dilated image of the primordial galaxy at 500 million years young would not be able to appear at that spatial location in that 13.2 billion year timeline; the Big Bang model that suggests Universe was created in an explosion from a small hot ball is logically fallacious.
You don't seem to understand the theory here. The galaxy in question appears to be exactly where it should be given the current understanding of the Big Bang theory. It appears to be the distance is is not simply because of the expansion of the universe before the light that we observe left the galaxy but also because of the expansion since the light left the galaxy.
Quote
This Big Bang model postulation is inconsistence in its logical framework, although in its hypothetical construct it is mathematically valid, it is logically erroneous, and therefore is unthinkable; no thought experiment could work for such a scenario. Put on a logic thinking cap and ask the question on how could the time-dilated image with a 500 million years young scenario of that primordial galaxy appear at the 13.2 billion year timeline in a Big Bang expansion; it is simply impossible.
Well, how it happens is this:
1) In the first 500 million years after the era of recombination, a galaxy forms.
2) Light leaves that galaxy.
3) In the time between when the light leaves the galaxy and today when we see this light, the distance between us and the galaxy grows to 31 billion light years.
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It is only logical to think that at 13.2 billion years ago, that distant galaxy was already formed there at that spatial location.
Of course.
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In absolute time it would have travelled to a further spatial location according to its trajectory.
Exactly, except that there is no absolute time. Typically one uses a specific cosmological time coordinate to talk of the age of the universe.

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« Reply #227 on: 15/02/2010 19:54:27 »
It appears to be the distance is is not simply because of the expansion of the universe before the light that we observe left the galaxy but also because of the expansion since the light left the galaxy.

Appreciate your quick respond and your attempt to explain where I might have overlooked.

Can you please elaborate on your above statement specifically, on how did that distant galaxy got to the distance of 13.2 Gly away in 500 million years of time with the expansion you have posited above. Thanks. 
« Last Edit: 15/02/2010 20:02:39 by Vincent Wee-Foo »
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« Reply #228 on: 15/02/2010 21:40:47 »
First, the galaxy that you speak of was not 13.2 billion light years away from our coordinate position at the time it emitted the light we see. If it is still in the same place, then it is currently about 31 billion light years away. It was probably less than 3 billion light years away when the light that we see left that galaxy.

Second, the rate of expansion in the very, very early universe was much faster than the speed of light. This lets a finite amount of matter spread out over a large distance.

Third, the universe might be infinite in size. This means that there will always be galaxies out however far we can look.

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« Reply #229 on: 17/02/2010 17:10:10 »
Quote
Quote
In absolute time it would have travelled to a further spatial location according to its trajectory.
Exactly, except that there is no absolute time. Typically one uses a specific cosmological time coordinate to talk of the age of the universe.

Noted and thanks. I agreed absolute time was not appropriate for the discussion here.


First, the galaxy that you speak of was not 13.2 billion light years away from our coordinate position at the time it emitted the light we see. If it is still in the same place, then it is currently about 31 billion light years away. It was probably less than 3 billion light years away when the light that we see left that galaxy.

Second, the rate of expansion in the very, very early universe was much faster than the speed of light. This lets a finite amount of matter spread out over a large distance.

My apology for not being as detailed as you are to mention the comoving distance, nonetheless, this is the neck of the problem for my issue with the BB model.

Your reasoning on superluminal expansion of space for the Universe in the earlier phase is rational and it is mathematically valid. Can you please substantiate the claim on superluminal expansion during the earlier phase, I would like to have your insight on this. It would be marvelous if it is coherent with the cosmic inflation BB model.   

Quote
Third, the universe might be infinite in size. This means that there will always be galaxies out however far we can look.

You have a very interesting proposition here that is usually not endorsed by realism or the objectivism from the BB proponents for their definitions of reality; it appears to me you have a different concept of space that is different from the classical BB model. Although I felt this is not quite relevant to our discussion here, I believe you might have some hypotheses for substantiating your this point of view. Appreciate if you could provide a link that elaborates on this concept.     

Many thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: 17/02/2010 17:45:44 by Vincent Wee-Foo »
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« Reply #230 on: 17/02/2010 17:19:37 »
Given my training and study, I am quite confident that I am right in step with the actual understanding of space as presented in the standard cosmological model. If you want some detailed information, I recommend Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

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« Reply #231 on: 17/02/2010 18:31:50 »
Given my training and study, I am quite confident that I am right in step with the actual understanding of space as presented in the standard cosmological model. If you want some detailed information, I recommend Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

I believe you training and study would be an asset for this discussion.

Thanks for the link. I found it in part II of the cosmology tutorial that suggests it could be an open Universe, inferring it is spatially infinite. Nevertheless, this is still not a known fact and realists debates against a spatially infinite Universe. Although I knew the standard cosmology model proposed open and closed Universe, I did not know before hand that an open Universe would imply it is spatially infinite, thanks for this info and I have benefited from the discussion with you.

Although the tutorial stated in an open Universe, superluminal speeds are certainly possible, it did not mention superluminal expansion of space in the Universe in the earlier phase, or was this  information hidden somewhere in the tutorial and I did not manage to find it?

However, this begs the next question. With the distant galaxy Abell 1835 IR1916 observed and it  has a redshift factor of z=10, why do you think an open Universe expanding at superluminal speed at its earlier phase is compatible with inflation cosmic? Or did I not interpret your replies correctly and you did not posit this?

« Last Edit: 17/02/2010 18:38:52 by Vincent Wee-Foo »
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« Reply #232 on: 04/04/2010 14:09:25 »
I am of the inclination that there is not ONE BIG BANG, from the size of a proton to expand to this whole visible universe with some 15 billion galaxies, not to mention trillions of stars, and quadrillions of  planets. Not to show disrespect, but the author of one big bang is a priest-scientist…that Big Bang was patterned after the creation of the Bible.

I feel it is more reasonable that several big bangs, of smaller sizes, occurred,, these array of  billions of galaxies indicates that such could be the many big bangs within visible universe. That the galaxies are the  make up of the universe, like falling rain, not one raindrop but millions of raindrops. Then, it is more plausible that the origin of these galaxies could be the size of proton, each galaxy. Why are there billions of galaxies, giants in their own individual sizes, carrying billions of satellite stars, the galaxies, comparable in size from one another,  distributed/spread on the relative distance from one another or cluster.   


Jsaldea12


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« Reply #233 on: 04/04/2010 21:19:35 »
I am of the inclination that there is not ONE BIG BANG, from the size of a proton to expand to this whole visible universe with some 15 billion galaxies, not to mention trillions of stars, and quadrillions of  planets. Not to show disrespect, but the author of one big bang is a priest-scientist…that Big Bang was patterned after the creation of the Bible.
Ummm... no. There is nothing remotely similar between the account in Genesis and Lemaitre's model of the universe. At best they share a creation event, though even that is not required in a Lemaitre model.
Quote
I feel it is more reasonable that several big bangs, of smaller sizes, occurred,, these array of  billions of galaxies indicates that such could be the many big bangs within visible universe. That the galaxies are the  make up of the universe, like falling rain, not one raindrop but millions of raindrops. Then, it is more plausible that the origin of these galaxies could be the size of proton, each galaxy. Why are there billions of galaxies, giants in their own individual sizes, carrying billions of satellite stars, the galaxies, comparable in size from one another,  distributed/spread on the relative distance from one another or cluster.   
You are welcome to try to support this with astronomical evidence.

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« Reply #234 on: 07/04/2010 01:13:01 »
Number of superclusters In the visible universe = 10 million
Number of galaxy groups in the visible universe = 25 billion
Number of large galaxies in the visible universe   = 350 billion
Number of dwarf galaxies in the visible universe  = 7 trillion
Number of stars in the visible universe                   = 30 billion trillion


Above is the figures given by very respectable Richard Powell, astrophysicist, with e-mail singinglemon@earthling.net. You can find this amazing graphic data  in the internet. re-The universe within 14 billion light
years”...http://www/atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

Can it be that such volume in the visible universe, not to mention, the infinite unreached, unseen recesses of the universe, emanated from a single point in the universe, the size SMALLER THAN A PROTON?


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« Reply #235 on: 16/04/2010 11:16:21 »
I feel it is more reasonable that several big bangs, of smaller sizes, occurred,, these array of  billions of galaxies indicates that such could be the many big bangs within visible universe. That the galaxies are the  make up of the universe, like falling rain, not one raindrop but millions of raindrops. Then, it is more plausible that the origin of these galaxies could be the size of proton, each galaxy. Why are there billions of galaxies, giants in their own individual sizes, carrying billions of satellite stars, the galaxies, comparable in size from one another,  distributed/spread on the relative distance from one another or cluster.   

I wouldn't use the term several big bangs of smaller sizes to describe how the physical universe had emanated; big bang model is very specific and it is definitely not an emanating model of smaller size big bangs. Nonetheless, I support the view of an emergent model from an alternative perspective.

You are welcome to try to support this with astronomical evidence.

On friendly invitation with genuine interest for amicable discussion on the expressed alternative worldview, here is an astronomical evidence in galactic scale that supports the emergent model; see a link on "Cartwheel Galaxy Makes Waves In New NASA Image".

Cartwheel galaxy group

Evidently, matters in the outer ring of the Cartwheel galaxy are evolved in the so called empty space from an apparent nothingness and these plasmatic clouds vortically coalesce to form as stars in an intensified vortex ring that harmonically resonates around the main galaxy at the center. See a UVS topic on "Black hole, dark matter and dark energy" that elaborates on this apparent nothingness that encapsulate the Cartwheel galaxy.

“There is no space empty of field.” - Albert Einstein


From the perspective of UVS on how the physical universe has come into existence in collections of smaller emergences in the backdrop of the largest observable emergence, all celestial objects are vortically coalesced from matters that had emerged in vortical motion from an apparent nothingness in space. See also a UVS topic on "Faster than light speed in transferring of motion through interconnectedness" that elaborates on this supposedly emergence phenomenon of the Cartwheel's ring in the alternative worldview.

Here is an astronomical evidence in the most grandeur scale that is observable in the physical universe; see a UVS topic on "The dipole anisotropy pattern of CMBR" that illustrates this phenomenon where all its smaller emergences such as superclusters, galaxy clusters, galaxies, satellite galaxies, stars, planets and their satellites are vortically coalesced from matters that had emerged in this grand vortical motion that sets every celestial object in unisonal perpetual motion as a clockwork universe.

COBE temperature map of the CMBR dipole.

« Last Edit: 21/04/2010 07:49:26 by Vincent »
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« Reply #236 on: 17/04/2010 14:22:25 »
Hi everybody

To be honest I have skipped most of this thread as the first two pages were more about a 2 people than the subject. On the one hand Sophiecentaur, the Jean Brodie school mistress standing in resolute reasonableness of the faithful. And J K Fletcher, who proposes some startling intuitively brilliant thought that deserves more than immediate dismissal, yet may sometimes find it hard to decide how far outside the box its safe to go. Would it not be interesting if they could attempt to meet in the middle?

I think, and as this is my first post I should perhaps point out that my organised education within institutions designed for that task ended when I was aged 11. My only achievement in an educational establishment was to gain a regional record in undetected truancy. Yet such behaviour is not only indicative of delinquency but also of burning individuality. Are we to be like ants or bees that live only for the hive?

All my heroes of science are mavericks. I would hazard the guess that most of my heroes are the same as most of yours. So I would like Sophie and Andrew to stop talking past each other and see where they can agree. For Sophie you should be happy that maverick thought from those who have no academic investment is voiced here. Who knows what kernel of inspiration it may unleash? Its an ill wind and all that. I do not think you have to be an academic and use the language of mathematics to have a valid idea. Good ideas begin in peoples heads not with equations. And sometimes I get the distinct impression that scientists get lost in their theories like teenagers on WoW.

I say this because you are ignoring some extremely interesting observationally testable ideas. Infra-red scans from the recent generation of cryogenic satellite instruments shows a universe full of stuff. We don't know nor understand yet how it clumps together except that something else we do not understand yet, gravity, has something to do with it. Our working models on the formation of solar systems prior to their discovery had never even mentioned the possibility of hot giants that would dwarf Jupiter, hurtling round in breakneck orbits virtually in the corona of their parent star. Burp! Sorry I meant predatory mass. We do not know much about solar systems because we only have a basic working knowledge of one.

As someone who is just an observer and accumulator of information and has no investment to fulfil but curiosity I can state there are virtually no papers that are published without someone raising caveats, contradictions and uncertainties. Science is not just a beautiful methodology it is also a never ending argument. And so it should be. So lets all enjoy it while it lasts.

As for the point of the post, the question is the big bang theory correct? , I answered "other". It seems to me the current inflationary vision from a single point of nothingness is just senseless. To believe that Newton, Einstein and their scholarly progeny have everything explained is pure poop. Their genius is in taking us to frontiers of understanding, not in giving us ultimate truth. Such a thing will never exist for our minds that think the way they do. There will always be more questions, the next frontier.

I will not pretend it to be anything other than my own ignorant opinion but my guess is we cannot begin to guess at the causal conditions of space/time until we have a greatly improved understanding of what is happening below the planck scale and the interrelational mechanics that any meaningful theory would have to include are actually in place. And they simply are not. The near constant stream of results from deep space observation continue to produce more questions than answers even as they confirm the genius of the questions our science heroes posed us. Everything seems so..... paradoxical. My hunch is that we cannot see the wood for the trees. Or imagine for a moment that capable of human reasoning you were limited to being the size of an individual virus suspended 2 miles down in an ocean with as many individual viruses as there are stars in the visible universe. To know what and why the universe is we cannot ignore the perspective of scale.

On the planck floating on the quantum sub reality that is our visible cosmos there is so much we do not understand. We do not know with certainty the mechanics of the formation of any of the scales of magnitude. Not atomic building blocks, cells, solar systems, galaxies or clusters of galaxies. Our building of explanations are all incomplete works in progress. And whilst most of the prominent thinkers that make the headlines are more than willing to agree we simply cant be sure.... yet there is this aura of dictatorial, almost religious, arrogance like a council of Bishops, from the scientific 'body' to anyone who dare shout for a fundamental rethink.

Andrews ideas at the beginning of this thread deal with fundamental issues, the attraction and accumulation of bigger and bigger chunks of stuff. Unlike Andrew I believe that there is a limit beyond which that mass becomes so squashed it forms what we call black holes. I might add that I live with this 'hunch' that really understanding black holes will unlock a whole new paradigm. It is very easy to see there are a lot of supermassive black holes out there. They are important because at their event horizons the laws of physics we use for our material reckoning stop working. Our universe is peppered with examples of mass beyond mass. Are they relevant only because they exert such enormous gravitational influence? Cosmologists are still in fierce debate as to whether they are feeding, even creating, galaxies...or devouring them. I personally love the observation of water rich black hole ejections, spraying like huge garden sprinklers life giving water into its surrounding galaxy.

Without quoting papers and from what I have read from the official science press it is now believed to be highly likely that there is not only our new found love affair with dark matter and energy, there is something else being observed too. Dark flow. And there is at least one large eddy, or counterflow, been detected. It is easy and intuitive to think of the universe as a fluid, the saddle shape version of space time commonly used to explain the Einstein universe does look a snapshot of 'flow' too. So is there a good reason the universe is not lust a snapshot of a dynamic flowing body. Again I seek refuge in my ignorance of the academic tools to prove this one way or the other but from my untutored but well read perspective I see big bang theory as being just too full of fudges and fixes to be taken with the seriousness it is.

The truth is we are still stuck on 'what is gravity ?'. Without a meaningful answer to that all else remains meaningless. That is not to say it is all worthless. 


Add: That prominent galaxy in the above pic of the Cartwheel galaxy group has to have been called the condom galaxy.....shoorly ???
« Last Edit: 17/04/2010 14:33:35 by quibitheed »

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« Reply #237 on: 01/05/2010 18:39:58 »
You are welcome to try to support this with astronomical evidence.

See a series of video clips on "Cosmology Quest - Critique of Cosmology" part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

In this video it featured some accomplished scientists elaborating their opposing views that are supported with rigorous astronomical evidence for their opinions on why they think that the Big Bang model is incorrect.

From my vortex world view, here are two UVS topics that elaborate on how and why the Big Bang model is viewed as incorrect:

- Expansion of space in the Big Bang model reviewed with UVS (Note: This was partially discussed in the previous posts of this thread.)

- Accelerated expansion of space in cosmic inflation reviewed with UVS

IMHO, it does not even require my UVS to be involved to rationally refute the BB model; the mathematical construct of the Big Bang cosmology would fall apart under its own definitions when its assumptions and propositions are rationally scrutinized for its contradictions that are logically fallacious.

Nonetheless, UVS could illustrate the paradoxical effect of nature that are involved to cause the complexly inversed illusions in the apparent observations, it also provides as a rational alternative model for cosmic evolution that could coherently explain the evolution of the physical universe from macrocosms to microcosms, and the illustrations therein are supported with astronomical evidence in logical empiricism.

I would be grateful if the Big Bang proponents or experts here could highlight to me on where I might have overlooked, misunderstood or misinterpreted anything that are crucial for the correct understanding of cosmic evolution; I would be listening with all ears.   

Many thanks in advance.

« Last Edit: 01/05/2010 19:38:50 by Vincent »
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« Reply #238 on: 01/05/2010 19:15:21 »

I do not think you have to be an academic and use the language of mathematics to have a valid idea. Good ideas begin in peoples heads not with equations. And sometimes I get the distinct impression that scientists get lost in their theories like teenagers on WoW.

I say this because you are ignoring some extremely interesting observationally testable ideas. Infra-red scans from the recent generation of cryogenic satellite instruments shows a universe full of stuff.

Science is not just a beautiful methodology it is also a never ending argument. And so it should be. So lets all enjoy it while it lasts.

As for the point of the post, the question is the big bang theory correct? , I answered "other". It seems to me the current inflationary vision from a single point of nothingness is just senseless. To believe that Newton, Einstein and their scholarly progeny have everything explained is pure poop. Their genius is in taking us to frontiers of understanding, not in giving us ultimate truth. Such a thing will never exist for our minds that think the way they do. There will always be more questions, the next frontier.

Everything seems so..... paradoxical. (You might be interested to take a look at a UVS topic on "The paradoxical effect of nature)".

.... yet there is this aura of dictatorial, almost religious, arrogance like a council of Bishops, from the scientific 'body' to anyone who dare shout for a fundamental rethink.

I might add that I live with this 'hunch' that really understanding black holes will unlock a whole new paradigm.

Dark flow. And there is at least one large eddy, or counterflow, been detected. It is easy and intuitive to think of the universe as a fluid, the saddle shape version of space time commonly used to explain the Einstein universe does look a snapshot of 'flow' too.

The truth is we are still stuck on 'what is gravity ?'. Without a meaningful answer to that all else remains meaningless. That is not to say it is all worthless. 

Add: That prominent galaxy in the above pic of the Cartwheel galaxy group has to have been called the condom galaxy.....shoorly ???


Hi quibitheed,

Thank you for your very eloquent writting, reading you post was a very refreshing experience, and I have reread it several times.

You have made many interesting pointers (as noted above) in your this initial post that summarize your worldview of the Universe. However I will stop short here to ask if you could provide the links for the  astronomical details and images on:

1. Infra-red scans from the recent generation of cryogenic satellite instruments shows a universe full of stuff.

2. Dark flow. 

Thanks.
~ vincent / Universal Vortical Singularity (UVS)

“It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.” - Albert Einstein

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Offline om

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« Reply #239 on: 08/05/2010 12:55:16 »
Four new videos on "Nellie the Neutron" and "New Clear Science" <nuclear science> explain the role of neutron repulsion as the energy source that powers the Sun and the cosmos:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=31352.0

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Emeritus Professor
Nuclear & Space Science
Former NASA PI for Apollo

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Offline teh theory

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« Reply #240 on: 16/06/2010 20:52:10 »
i think it must have been a constant universe that LOOKS like it inflated from a point for any observer within the universe... each observer point probably has a different point of seeming 'big bang' origin ... although all of us here on earth might find it difficult to separate the different points of origin out thanks to the huge scale...

...doesn't the uncertainty principle blow out the idea of absolute nothing? and conservation of energy blow out 'something' from 'nothing'...

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Offline om

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« Reply #241 on: 25/06/2010 05:23:21 »
i think it must have been a constant universe that LOOKS like it inflated from a point for any observer within the universe... each observer point probably has a different point of seeming 'big bang' origin ... although all of us here on earth might find it difficult to separate the different points of origin out thanks to the huge scale...

...doesn't the uncertainty principle blow out the idea of absolute nothing? and conservation of energy blow out 'something' from 'nothing'...
Quantitative experimental data on
 
a.) Nuclear rest masses of all known types of atoms,
b.) Solar luminosity, solar neutrinos and solar wind emissions, and
c.) Material in meteorites, planets, the solar photosphere, the solar wind, and solar flares

Indicate that material in the Solar System is now expanding because

d) Volume increases by 10^15 in neutron decay (Step 2 below), and
e.) Four reactions produce all of the solar products listed in b.) above:

1. Neutron emission from the solar core: <n>  => n + 12 MeV/nucleon
2. Neutron decay after emission: n => H + 1 MeV/nucleon
3. H-fusion after decay: 4 H => He-4 + 2 v + 7 MeV/nucleon
4. Escape of excess H in the solar wind: Solar H => 50,000 billion metric ton of SW H/year is discharged to interstellar space.

Our Sun is maintained by dynamic competition between neutron repulsion and gravitational attraction in the neutron-rich solar core.  In Step 2 above the atomic volume of the product H atom is ~10^15 times bigger than that of the neutron:

V(H)/V(n) ~ 1,000,000,000,000,000

Presently the universe is expanding here as compact nuclear matter in the solar core is expanding by about a factor of ~10^15 and being ejected to fill interstellar space with Hydrogen.

In the future, when the neutron-rich core of stars have all evaporated, there will be no repulsive force opposing the attractive force of gravity.  Then,

f.) If the universe is infinite it may collapse back down as part of an infinite series of oscillations, or
g.) If the universe is finite and started with the Big Bang, it may become cold, dead and static.

That's how it looks from here.

Oliver K. Manuel
http://myprofile.cos.com/manuelo09

« Last Edit: 25/06/2010 05:31:47 by om »

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Offline CreativeEnergy

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« Reply #242 on: 15/08/2010 20:00:24 »
As far as I am concerned the Big Bang has been firmly established. Looks like Father Georges Lemaître was right after all! LOL  [;)]
Caelum videre iussit, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus.
"He bid them look at the sky and lift their faces to the stars."

--Ovid, Metamorphoses 1. 85-86


Eric's Journal
Eric's Cosmos

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Offline om

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« Reply #243 on: 15/08/2010 20:53:55 »
As far as I am concerned the Big Bang has been firmly established. Looks like Father Georges Lemaître was right after all! LOL  [;)]

Was Father Georges Lemaître Right?

We don't know.  Why not simply admit that we do not know if the universe is finite or infinite?

But more is being revealed every day about the Little Bang that made the Solar System right here [Science 195, 208-209 (1977); Nature 277, 615-620 (1979); Geokhimiya no. 12, 1776-1801 (1981); Meteoritics 18, 209-222 (1983)].

Naked science readers may be interested in reading about the similarity in the one of the shapes allowed for electrons in the 3d orbital of the Hydrogen atom (two dumbbells passing through the hole in a doughnut) to the supernova debris that formed the Solar System five billion years (5 Gyr) ago, . . . .

And to the events that more recently formed SN 1987A and the Planetary Nebula Eta Carina:
 
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/43451

Let's celebrate new information that is being revealed today and stop arguing about information that none of have yet.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
« Last Edit: 15/08/2010 20:56:38 by om »

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Offline Vincent

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« Reply #244 on: 10/09/2010 17:47:48 »
...doesn't the uncertainty principle blow out the idea of absolute nothing? and conservation of energy blow out 'something' from 'nothing'...

Something cannot comes from nothing. The conventional knowledge of standard cosmology propositioned that the vast space is void of substance, but this nothingness in the WMAP exploration with its instrument of various observational bandwidths, it was discovered to be filled with discernable stuff. 

See a link on Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe for its top ten findings.

“There is no space empty of field.” - Albert Einstein


EM field is not classified as physical object, yet this weightlessness phenomenon of nothingness could exert physical pressure on physical objects in its path.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2010 19:33:54 by Vincent »
~ vincent / Universal Vortical Singularity (UVS)

“It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.” - Albert Einstein

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Offline Vincent

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« Reply #245 on: 10/09/2010 18:02:04 »
As far as I am concerned the Big Bang has been firmly established. Looks like Father Georges Lemaître was right after all! LOL  [;)]

The geocentric model was even more firmly established for millenniums, was it right after all?

~ vincent / Universal Vortical Singularity (UVS)

“It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.” - Albert Einstein

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« Reply #246 on: 10/09/2010 18:48:48 »
As far as I am concerned the Big Bang has been firmly established. Looks like Father Georges Lemaître was right after all! LOL  [;)]

Was Father Georges Lemaître Right?

We don't know.  Why not simply admit that we do not know if the universe is finite or infinite?

snips..

Let's celebrate new information that is being revealed today and stop arguing about information that none of have yet.

Greeting Professor Manuel,

We could know, let me elaborate:

The Big Bang model propositioned that the boundary of the observable physical universe in every direction is a view at 13.7 billion years ago when the physical universe was in its primordial form, but this is absolutely contradicting in all aspects at all extends; the extremely small, dense and hot state of the nascent physical universe in its isotropic form is currently being empirically observed in its time dilation image of 13.7 billion years ago to be having an extremely large radius of 13.7 Gly in an extremely sparse and cooled state. This is a self-referenced mathematical paradox of the most extreme physical extends that does not refer to reality.

In the mathematical construct of Father Georges Lemaître's BB model, it is absolutely valid with its self-referenced deductive proofs and its propositions are therefore indisputable in its mathematical realm. Nonetheless, when it gets to reality, as illustrated above, it is absolutely bogus. 

For further elucidation, the readers of this forum might want to see a UVS topic on "Validity analysis" that elaborates on unassialable mathematical constructs that suffer from various paradoxes as a result of their foundational crisis.

Best to you.

« Last Edit: 14/09/2010 20:00:43 by Vincent »
~ vincent / Universal Vortical Singularity (UVS)

“It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.” - Albert Einstein

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Offline Deepanshu

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« Reply #247 on: 20/10/2010 08:59:05 »
The big bang is correct and well modelled as far as the observational record extends but that is clearly not the end of it. I strongly suspect we are observing one universe within a vast multiverse of indefinite size containing many similar universes to our own. That is essentially constant.

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Offline Bengt

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« Reply #248 on: 03/12/2010 15:35:52 »
Say a diesel engine requires 10 liters of water ......
Hello Andrew,
You need to run the numbers on your thermal ideas. How much energy do you think is being cooled away by the oceans? You can then easily calculate the thermal gradient necessary through the core, the oceans and the atmosphere. If you are right the deepest parts of the oceans should be warmer than the surface. And the surface of the oceans should be warmer than the annual average of the low level atmosphere. Good Luck.
Bengt
[Irrelevant link removed - Mod]
« Last Edit: 03/12/2010 15:43:34 by peppercorn »

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Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #249 on: 23/12/2010 04:14:38 »
Sorry, I skipped a couple of pages in the middle.  I'll try to get back to them later.

I am of the inclination that there is not ONE BIG BANG, from the size of a proton to expand to this whole visible universe with some 15 billion galaxies, not to mention trillions of stars, and quadrillions of  planets. Not to show disrespect, but the author of one big bang is a priest-scientist…that Big Bang was patterned after the creation of the Bible.

I feel it is more reasonable that several big bangs, of smaller sizes, occurred,, these array of  billions of galaxies indicates that such could be the many big bangs within visible universe. That the galaxies are the  make up of the universe, like falling rain, not one raindrop but millions of raindrops. Then, it is more plausible that the origin of these galaxies could be the size of proton, each galaxy. Why are there billions of galaxies, giants in their own individual sizes, carrying billions of satellite stars, the galaxies, comparable in size from one another,  distributed/spread on the relative distance from one another or cluster. 

I would have to agree with the "micro-bang" theory.

If there was a single "big bang" with all matter and energy emanating from a single point (or single area).  Then with a Big Bang Explosion, we would likely have a universe that would be a hollow sphere with nothing in the middle where the explosion originated (unless it is beginning to collapse back on itself).

The problem with an infinitely old universe is that hydrogen should be consumed, and no longer exist which, of course, isn't the case.  Thus, we need to come up with a theory of the origin of hydrogen (the big bang).

I suppose this gets us to Black Holes.  Originally thought to just consume matter and energy, there is more recent evidence that black holes not only consume matter and energy, but radiate energy, and possibly matter.  Furthermore, there may be some events that would cause them to explode.  And, since there may not be differentiation of atoms in the black hole, they may be able to account for the renewing of Hydrogen in the universe.

If thermal energy is represented by particle movement.  Does there reach a point in the core of a black hole where there is no particle movement, and thus no thermal energy?  And, if so, what happened to the thermal energy? 

Can a black hole enlarge to a size where it becomes inherently unstable?

What happens if two super-massive black holes collide...  and don't get kicked apart?

Anyway, there is a lot more to learn about the universe before one can conclude that all matter & energy originated in a single cataclysmic event.