Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?

  • 104 Replies
  • 140350 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Offline Matthew Hasty

  • First timers
  • *
  • 3
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« on: 12/06/2008 08:07:54 »
Matthew Hasty  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hey Chris and Crew

My name is Matthew Hasty and I'm an artist living in Memphis Tennessee I'll try and be brief... but first the obligatory praise:

newbielink:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/ [nonactive]  

I just wondered if you could look into something... ( If you have already... I'll get to it soon)

I have recently found out about a product that is purported to rid the body of  quite a list of diseases.... one claim has been that is has cured over 75,000 people in Africa of Malaria...

It supposedly works on many viruses, bacteria, moulds and a host of parasites. It's called  MMS  (Miracle Mineral Suppliment) NaC1O2 or sodium chlorite ....Perhaps you could clear up what it does do and disseminate some of the  information about it...

Thanks for newbielink:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/ [nonactive] and keep up all of the brilliant work....

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 22:30:00 by Matthew Hasty »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #1 on: 12/06/2008 19:23:52 »
It doesn't work.
Pity.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline NobodySavedMe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 112
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #2 on: 13/06/2008 22:29:57 »
It doesn't work.
Pity.

Actually it does work.I have a list.

*

Offline NobodySavedMe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 112
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #3 on: 13/06/2008 22:33:46 »
Matthew Hasty  asked the Naked Scientists:

Hey Chris and Crew

My name is Matthew Hasty and I'm an artist living in Memphis Tennessee I'll try and be brief... but first the obligatory praise:

I seriously LOVE your podcast!!!   

I just wondered if you could look into something... ( If you have already... I'll get to it soon)

I have recently found out about a product that is purported to rid the body of  quite a list of diseases.... one claim has been that is has cured over 75,000 people in Africa of Malaria...

It supposedly works on many viruses, bacteria, moulds and a host of parasites. It's called  MMS  (Miracle Mineral Suppliment) CLO2 or sodium chlorite ....Perhaps you could clear up what it does do and disseminate some of the  information about it...

Thanks for your show and keep up all of the brilliant work....

What do you think?


I urge you to bookmark and read this.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm

Loads of scientific papers listed with references.

[PERSONAL REFERENCE REMOVED - PLEASE DESIST FROM ATTACKING OTHER FORUM MEMBERS - MOD, CS]

All the information about MMS is here from scientific sources over the last 100 years.

It is a long page but it describes in detail why MMS works.With scientific references.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm
« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 12:47:37 by chris »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #4 on: 14/06/2008 12:49:20 »
Yes, you have a list. You are also the person who thinks you can cook popcorn with a mobile phone.

If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get.
No doubt this will get some trash response about the big pharmaceuticals companies. The claim that big pharma is stopping people using a wonder drug because it's not sold by one of the pharma companies doesn't make sense. there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently.
As for the ( now removed) reference to me
"Disregard Bored Chemist.All his posts are on the side of the Establishment and corporate interests.He claims to be a union leader.I shudder to think what kind.The one that sells out?"

I'm a safety rep and sometimes ADC rep for these people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_(trade_union)
And I never claimed to be a leader- but NobodySavedMe and facts have never seemed to me to get on very well.
He also seems not to realise that the reason I post under an assumed name is that I don't think my "establishment" employers would like some of the stuff I post.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 12:56:11 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Matthew Hasty

  • First timers
  • *
  • 3
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #5 on: 14/06/2008 20:50:30 »
Okay....  Well here is my personal experience with the stuff... I have a friend that had told me he had some results with some varying ailments... so I got some of it (it's cheap... what could it hurt right?) It takes a minor amount of preparation (if you can test the Ph level in a pool you can prepare it....  So I got it and did a few drops....  I won't go into the prep however when you make it... it smells as though it will have an affect of some kind as it has sort of an acidic chlorine smell as the name sodium chlorite would suggest.  So I took it for a few days and having no real ailments of any kind, didn't notice much (no surprise there) except for the lack of taste in my mouth (perhaps a cure for halitosis...)  I decided to discontinue use, it hadn't made me sick so I decided to wait until I had something to experiment on.... Quite some time passed before I got sick with anything My wife and son had had colds perhaps the flu... I wasn't getting anything ( I didn't attribute this to the MMS)  ... Finally I got a cold/ or flu and tried the MMS stuff once, perhaps twice again.. It seemed as if It became worse relatively soon.. I felt horrible the next day but that was it perhaps two days of really feeling poorly and a few days with the residual cough... I did not have the effect of instant anything as it purports to cure malaria within hours. After this I decided to go and ask the proper authorities and write to the Naked Scientists who seemed as though they would take a look into almost anything to separate the legitimate from the bogus  for the common good. I hope that they are able to put this to rest... and perhaps it will be yet another miracle that will go the way of many other cure-all-miracles and quackery.... one of my personal favorites (and the name of my band if I ever get that together) "The Radio Disease Killer"....

Hey even placebos work sometimes....
« Last Edit: 15/06/2008 01:10:25 by Matthew Hasty »

*

Offline Matthew Hasty

  • First timers
  • *
  • 3
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #6 on: 14/06/2008 21:04:51 »
The Naked Scientists could actually do a whole show on Dr. Albert Abrams and the Electronic Reactions of Abrams or E.R.A.  (for the initiated )

*

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 5425
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #7 on: 14/06/2008 21:33:53 »
Hi Matthew

welcome to the forum - great to have you join us from the podcast!

To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap. You might as well go and drink swimming pool water. I'd recommend saving your money and spending it on a packet of paracetamol for when you next feel ill, and some fresh fruit and vegetables in your diet every day.

That's guaranteed to have a bigger impact on your health than taking what amounts to something poisonous.

Chris
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx

*

Offline Matthew Hasty

  • First timers
  • *
  • 3
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #8 on: 14/06/2008 23:33:44 »
Hey Chris Thanks for the welcome! 

I agree with you about the diet wholeheartedly.... It is just the idea that what if there are some benefits to be had... for example if I understand correctly the stuff is in our public drinking water.. (at least it was the last time the public was allowed to tour their local water works ---- Sept 10 2001)

 I don't read a ton of medical journals so I cant say for sure but the article by Thomas Lee Hesselink, MD

newbielink:http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXprnt+refs.htm [nonactive]

has some compelling info... at least for a layman like me. I am going to start at the top of his reference list and go from there...

 I would say some research in the matter wouldn't hurt...  I mean Doctors still blast the patients with radiation and chemicals all day & everyday over here....

 I'd  take a couple of drops of poison a day for a penny a pop if it worked just as well as some of the alternatives...

All that being said....   there were 3500 people administering ( no # ) patients in the 1920's with a machine designed to electronically discover what diseases you were suffering with... and magnetically cure you....  newbielink:http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/abrams/abrams.htm [nonactive]

If the MMS stuff is "crap" could be good material to show that people are always going to hope like that for some magic bullet to cure us all... and maybe that is the "bigger" story...


Again Thank You for your Podcast and your show... I am still astounded by the connectivity of this medium.... in the chaos of the hive there is an order!











« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 23:42:33 by Matthew Hasty »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #9 on: 15/06/2008 11:40:09 »
OK, lets have a look at that web page. The first thing it says is
"Nothing in this article is intended as medical advice.
No claims, promises nor guarantees are made"
Interesting.

Then "This procedure rapidly eliminates malaria and other infectious agents in only one dose."
That's a claim, so one of the first things it says is a lie. So far, I'mnot impressed.

Thenit says "Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) is highly reactive with thiols, polyamines, purines, certain amino acids and iron, all of which are necessary for the growth and survival of pathogenic microbes."
Which is true enough. Of course, since all of those things are needed to grow microbes and there are microbes in the gut we have a problem. Any ClO2 in the gut would instantly react with one or more of those compounds- it would never get any further ( it would be destroyed in the mouth if it were there long enough).
Incidentally it also reacts with hydrochloric acid which is also present in the stomach.

Malaria is a relapsing disease- it comes and goes. If you have malaria and take snake oil it will sometimes look as if it has worked. Together with mankind's abillity to believe in what they want to happen, you can see how the section on "discovery" makes sense.

Then there are about 40 references that tell you that malaria is bad and what ClO2 is. Nice comprehesive background but of no real importance.
Looks impressive, buut doesn't actually tell you much, I mean what does "The Three-Electron Bond in Chlorine Dioxide. " have to do with malaria?.

Then there's a section headed "OXIDANTS AS PHYSIOLOGIC AGENTS"
It includes ther rather telling observation that "Some work has been done using dilute solutions of sodium chlorite internally to treat fungal infections, chronic fatigue, and cancer; however, little has been published in that regard". Well, positive results tend to get published so what does that say to you?
Then ther is another batch of only vaguely related references- things like "The Use Of Ozone In Medicine, " and "Decreased level of 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and
alteration of structural integrity in erythrocytes
infected with Plasmodium falciparum in vitro."
I'd love to see why someone thinks the first of those might be relevent to the use of chlorite- it's about an entirely different chemical.
At least the second is about themalaria parasite (Plasmodium falciparum ) but it's a report of someone having measured the effect (in a test tube ( in vitro)) on the levels some rather obscure chemical in red blood cells. That's worthy enough in its way, but it has nothing to do with using chlorite to treat malaria.

There are a few references like this one "Interferon-gamma activates the oxidative killing
of Candida albicans by human granulocytes. " that look like they might be relevent bu,t oxidative killing of freign cells by the body is one of its major defense mechanisms. It uses peroxy compounds- not ClO2.


Then there's a section headed "OXIDES OF CHLORINE AS DISINFECTANTS"
And a whole lot of references saying that chlorine and its oxides are useful disinfectants. There are two things to note here. Firstly none of these refers to malaria or plasmodium- which is a bit of a shame if you are trying to say this stuff killsthem. Secondly it's not news to anyone that strong oxidants kill bacteria etc. When Domestos advertised itself as "Kills all known germs. Dead." they were perfectly correct. (They didn't say that the same claim could be made by any bleach based product- but who can blame them).
Unfortunately you can't drink bleach and expect it to kill harmful bacteria. It's too reactive- all you will do is damage your stomach because the cells of the stomach are just as susceptible to bleach poisoning as the bacteria are.
The same is true of ClO2.

Then there's a section called "MALARIA IS OXIDANT SENSITIVE"
Which is true- so what? too high an oxygen concentration kills people.
Then there's lots of references, but none of them involves ClO2. There's a reason for that. The malaria parasite lives (at least some of the time) inside blood cells. If you add bleach or ClO2 you destroy the cells- so the malaria parasite is now "homeless".Its not a sensible test.

Trawling on there's a section about "TARGETING THIOLS"
Unfortunately,
1
that's what arsenic does- so it's not really a good start and
2
ClO2 dosn't really do it- it's a strong oxidant and atakcs pretty much the first thing it meets.

Again there's a whole lot of references that don't say much.


Then we have "HEME IS AN OXIDANT SENSITIZER"
Now that looks promising. The malaria parasite hangs out in red blood cells and there's a lot of heam in them. If the heam makes the oxidants more effective then it migh likk the bugs.
2 problems- if it makes the stuff more toxic in blood cells them most of what it kills will be blood cells. Not really what you want and also, remember way back at the begining I said that the stuff would be destroyed in the mouth and stomach. Well, just how much is going to get as far as the blood? How about none?
Then there's the usual run of references to make it look scientific.


We then come to "OVERCOMING ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE WITH OXIDATION"
Well, if this stuff kills malaria on its own we don't need to use the antibiotics. It seems they just admitted their claim was false.
Then they list a few pages more references to make it look good.


Then we come to the real killer (literally)
I will quote this in full
"SOME INCOMPATIBILITIES
Acidified sodium chlorite could provide a powerful new opportunity to improve or to restore sensitivity to quinolines by virtue of its oxidative power. However, quinolines contain secondary or tertiary amino groups which react with chlorine dioxide in such a way that both could destroy each other. Some possible strategies to resolve this incompatibility are suggested below.
Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action.
Patients already preloaded with a quinoline could stop this, wait a suitable period of time for this to wash out, then administer the acidified sodium chlorite.
The quinoline could remain in use and while the less active sodium chlorite is administered without acid. This should retain plenty of oxidant effectiveness without destroying any quinoline or wasting too much oxidant.
Switch from a quinoline to an endoperoxide (such as artemisinin) or to a quinone (such as atovaquone) before using acidified sodium chlorite, as these may be less sensitive toward destruction by chlorine dioxide.
Similar problems apply to methylene blue and many other drugs if they have an unoxidized sulfur atom, a phenol group, a secondary amine or a tertiary amine. Such are also very reactive with the chlorine dioxide component. [58a] "


Ok what that says is that the ClO2 reacts with some of the drugs used in (legitimate) treatment of malaria.
What they sugest doing about that is reckless if not criminal.
"Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action. "

They sugest using only this rubbish on its own and, if needs be, withdrawing treatment with an effective drug.

Yes, that's really what it measn
they are saying that you should stop taking drugs thatare known to work to treat malaria and take their impossible remedy instead.

Does anyone care what the particular problems with the rest of their page are?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #10 on: 23/01/2009 20:09:29 »
Came across this post and felt obliged that I just had to say something when i read:

"No doubt this will get some trash response about the big pharmaceuticals companies." Yep right there. And:

"The claim that big pharma is stopping people using a wonder drug because it's not sold by one of the pharma companies doesn't make sense".

Doesn't make sense? That is somewhat of a naïve statement and please don't be offended but you need to put the chemistry books down and catch up with some economics and history. Unfortunately health care has become a business. Every sixth dollar spent in the U.S is on healthcare. Three out of every four drugs used in the world are produced by the U.K(2nd biggest export) and U.S. The pharmaceutical companies are awash with money and trust me they will not attract major investment unless they are satisfied things like this never reach the mainstream and are discredited etc, etc. Discrediting non-allopathic medicine has been part of pharmacuetical business model since the 1930's and they have suceeded in this as the misinformed public knows not of viable alternatives what they do hear about they beleive is quackery. As well as financial there are many geopolitical reasons for supression of cheap treatments like over-population and sustainabilty to consider - in other words some peoples viewpoint is why keep alive some useless-eaters in the third world who can do nothing but produce more useless-eaters.

MMS, Vitamin C and Ozone therapy have the same things in common:

1) They are extremely effective(1,2).
2) They are extremely cheap.
2) They cannot be patented.
3) They cannot make synthetic versions to be patented.
4) They threaten a large segment of allopathic medicines revenue.
5) Proponents have been murdered, jailed and otherwised harrassed. Even Linus Pauling was attacked in peer reviewed journals for his stance on Vitamin C(which he later received apologies for in the same journals).

For cancer Vitamin C and ozone therapy represent the finest most powerful treatments available. For infectious diseases they all excel with MMS taking the lead. I do not know MMS's effect on cancer I expect being similar to ozone it would also be good. Ronald Reagan and Rupert Murdoch both cured their cancer with ozone therapy.

To illustate Big Pharma corruption during 1965 Dr. Herbert Ley, FDA Commissioner testisfied during senate hearings that the FDA "protects" the big drug companies and are subsequently rewarded, and using the government's police powers they attack those who threaten the big drug companies. "People think what the FDA is protecting them. It isn't. What the FDA is doing and what the public thinks it's doing are as different as night and day. "First it is providing a means whereby key individuals on its payroll are able to obtain both power and wealth through granting special favors to certain politically influential groups that are subject to its regulation. This activity is similar to the 'protection racket' of organized crime: for a price, one can induce FDA administrators to provide 'protection' from the FDA itself." Secondly, as a result of this political favoritism, the FDA has become a primary factor in that formula whereby cartel oriented companies in the food and drug industry are able to use the police powers of government to
harass or destroy their free market competitors. "And thirdly, the FDA occasionally does some genuine public good with whatever energies it has left over after serving the vested political and commercial interest of its first two activities."

I don't mean to have a dig at you, I'm just trying to paint a picture of how the pharmaceutical world operates.

1) newbielink:http://www.understandingozone.com/docs/Scientific_References_Ozone_Therapy.pdf [nonactive]
2) US Patent 6086922 - Use of a chemically-stabilized chlorite matrix for the parenteral treatment of HIV infections
newbielink:http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6086922.html [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 24/01/2009 00:44:55 by testtest »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #11 on: 24/01/2009 20:04:35 »
If you are going to resurect a thread please make sure you have read it properly.
You say "Doesn't make sense? That is somewhat of a naïve statement and please don't be offended but you need to put the chemistry books down and catch up with some economics and history. Unfortunately health care has become a business. Every sixth dollar spent in the U.S is on healthcare. Three out of every four drugs used in the world are produced by the U.K(2nd biggest export) and U.S. "
True, but of no relevance.
Didn't you read the bit where I wrote "there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently."?

The number of dollars spent in the US or UK has nothing to do with the decisions made by some malaria-ravaged developing country.
The FDA has nothing to do with it.
More importantly, with my head stuck in a chemistry book, I can recognise a snake oil salesman when I see one. That's why I pointed out just how pathetic their claims were.

Oh BTW, having told us all how the FDA works (though we already knew, and it wasn't important anyway) perhaps you need to find out how the patent office works. They don't actually check if a new idea works before issuing a patent- so the fact that someone has patented the idea of using this stuff to kill HIV proves absolutely nothing.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #12 on: 24/01/2009 23:49:17 »
Yes I did read your post in it's entirety - "there are a number of countries where malaria and HIV are causing such damage to the ecconomy that their governments would ignore the threats of the pharmaceuticals companies; they could produce and market the stuff independently."

You say money has no relavance to a third world country not being influenced by big pharma when ravaged by a modern day plague, I beg to differ. As a recent example in South Africa Matthias Rath(who trained under Pauling) was conducting a well constructed study using vit c and green tea extract etc etc to treat HIV now this study was halted by the SA government half way through because the Treatment Action Campaign(TAC) who BTW receive funding from you guessed it big pharma were kicking up such a stink over it saying it was unethical. How anybody could of called this unethical is beyond me as the results could have been used by those taking and not taking meds. BTW Matthias Rath posted the results of the incompleted study showing major improvment in all patients.

Malawi IS using MMS 'for any purpose' after successful clinical trials with malaria and hopefully this will spread across Africa if Malawi officials don't try and keep it secret and make money out of it themselves. If you want references contact the Malawi ministry of health.

And yes I know how the patent system works but if you actually look at the data from the patent is shows obvious efficacy.

So before you write blanket statements like "It doesn't work. Pity" just remember there are actually sick desperate people trawling the web for solutions to diseases and for anybody on a scientific forum to critisise something without investigating it may end up affecting someones life.

"It doesn't work. Pity" = Condemnation without investigation.

If your interested a good primer on ozone(hence MMS as they work in the same way) is 'Ozone'-a new medical drug by Velio Bocci, Professor Emeritus of Sienna University.

« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 00:21:41 by testtest »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #13 on: 25/01/2009 11:21:04 »
"How anybody could of called this unethical is beyond me "
Because that study deprived people of access to treatments that were know to work and foisted them off with snake oil.

"If you want references contact the Malawi ministry of health. "
No, you have it the wrong way round. You are making the claim so you have to supply the evidence.


"So before you write blanket statements like "It doesn't work. Pity" just remember there are actually sick desperate people trawling the web for solutions to diseases and for anybody on a scientific forum to critisise something without investigating it may end up affecting someones life."

I know there are lots of desperate people out there.
Sadly there are snake oil salesmen who are willing to take advantage of them.
I believe that it falls to scientific web sites like this to try to put their "evidence" into context.

""It doesn't work. Pity" = Condemnation without investigation."
OK, I didn't post the evidence of investigation at that time, but I subsequently did. I went through their claims and destroyed them one at a time. That took some investigation.
Pity you didn't realise that.

"If your interested a good primer on ozone(hence MMS as they work in the same way)"
Got any proof of that? It's not easy to see why they would.

I just Googles malawi malaria and chlorite. One of the sites I found was this.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread319883/pg1

Those who have been on this site for a while will remember esecallum.
Not a good start in terms of credibility I'm afraid.



« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 11:24:48 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #14 on: 25/01/2009 14:17:08 »
Please don't talk about credibility when you are condemning without investigating yet again.

"Because that study deprived people of access to treatments that were know to work and foisted them off with snake oil."

Snake oil? Vitamin C was one of the main treatments of this program its power to inhibit reverse transcriptase by the magnitude of greater than 99% and act as a cell fusion inhibitor by taking the equivalent of 10-20 grams daily was proved by Linus Pauling in his 1990 study titled:

Suppression of human immunodeficiency virus replication by
ascorbate in chronically and acutely infected cells.

Green tea(white tea is even better BTW) catechins also act as an HIV fusion inhibitor. Williamson MP et al. Epigallocatechin gallate, the main polyphenol in green tea, binds to the T-cell receptor, CD4: potential for HIV-1 therapy. J Allergy Clin Immunol 118: 1369-74, 2006.

There were also other compounds used so once again I fail to see how this was in any way unethical. It could of promoted cheap natural effective treatments to most of Africa the majority of which does not recieve anti-virals(of debatable use anyway). You can find details of the study here newbielink:http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/nat_vit/index.html [nonactive]

This study had a solid scientific basis and publication of this important information, essential for millions of patients, is currently being challenged by organizations dedicated to the promotion of ARV drugs. For Matthias Rath to be labelled a charlatan quite simply doesn't hold up. If Pauling were still alive he would have given his support to Rath.

If you want to talk about snake oil let's talk about anti-viral meds for a moment, currently no long-term clinical proof for prolonged survival exists from controlled studies.  

newbielink:http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/the_truth_about_arvs/about_arvs_2.html [nonactive]

Also loads of info on HAART failure from newbielink:http://www.healtoronto.com/ptease.html [nonactive] quote "The protease inhibitor drugs Crixivan (indinavir) and Invarase (saquinavir) caused T cell death in healthy HIV negative donor blood in three separate experiments.". You couldn't make this stuff up. All referenced on that page.

So here we have an expensive medication killing the very cells HIV positives are so gravely depleted of, to me this exactly fits the description of snake oil as laid out by the dictionary.

Dictionary: snake oil

n.

   1. A worthless preparation fraudulently peddled as a cure for many ills.*
   2. Speech or writing intended to deceive; humbug.

*Big pharma cover themselves in the small print of their product information, e.g Crixivan - "At present, there are no results from controlled clinical trials evaluating the effect of therapy with CRIXIVAN on clinical progression of HIV infection, such as survival or the incidence of opportunistic infections". Classic, wish I had a business like this.

Also from: Inflammatory Reactions in HIV-1-Infected Persons after Initiation of Highly Active Antiretroviral Therapy

"It is possible that HAART may actually promote the clinical expression and development of such infections, as well as AIDS-related malignant conditions and other noninfectious diseases" This is a review article with 95 references.

newbielink:http://www.healtoronto.com/haart_aids2.html [nonactive]


I running short on time now will have to answer the rest of your post in a day or so.
« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 19:08:32 by testtest »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #15 on: 25/01/2009 20:19:20 »
In the real world, if green tea and vitamin C cured aids then the disease would have died out ages ago.
In your world you cite a guy who thinks that feeding DMF - an industrial solvent and known human teratogen to people is a good idea.
« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 20:34:31 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #16 on: 25/01/2009 23:41:12 »
I never said anything about curing using vit c and green tea just that they have the ability to inhibit HIV.

As far as DMF goes I know absolutely nothing about it so I can't comment until I've read both sides of it's use. If I believe that he has tried to profit from a dangerous substance I will say so.

I have learned from prior experience not to immediately dismiss something because the concept sounds strange.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #17 on: 26/01/2009 00:36:39 »
Interesting this is all new to me.

Apparently he was using a slow transdermal delivery system of DMF called Virodene made by newbielink:http://www.virodene.com [nonactive] according to their brochure the results of a study that was conducted at the Pretoria Academic Hospital in Pretoria, South Africa provided sufficient anecdotal evidence of Safety and Efficacy for Guy’s Drug Research Unit in London, UK, to undertake a Phase I Study on healthy volunteers.

It looks safe so far from the data provided by them with their phase 1 and 2 clinical trials, however it looks like even though their data shows it was safe they did not conduct the clinical trials according to procedural rules. This got them into trouble and the drug was subsequently removed for use in SA.

In credit to virodene.com the editor of the South African Medical Journal did write a story titled 'Give Virodene and the minister a break' saying things are so bad in the country from AIDS that there is a need to find out the truth about virodene. One AIDS sufferer commented "Were dying anyway so why not give us the bloody virodene to try?".

From their brochure: newbielink:http://www.virodene.com/downloads/Virodene_Executive_Brouchure.pdf [nonactive]

PHASE I CLINICAL TRIALS – LONDON UK

A double blind, placebo-controlled Study was conducted to evaluate the safety, tolerability and pharmacokinetics of a single dose of Virodene® PO58 on ten healthy male volunteers. 1997 - 2000 Various accredited international Clinical Research Organizations (CRO) and Laboratories were contracted to conduct the Study according to ICH guidelines for Good Clinical Practice (GCP).

• A Supranational Review Board, consisting of top international Peers, authorities in their relevant fields of expertise reviewed and approved the Study Protocol
• The Medicines Regulatory Body (MRA) in Great Britain did not regulate Phase I Studies until April 2004, and as such, only an Institutional Ethics Committee Approval was required to conduct this Study
• Guy’s Hospital Ethics Committee reviewed and approved an amended version of the Protocol, after recommendations by London Toxicologist, Prof Anthony Dayan
• Lloyds of London insured the Study
• Quintiles Guy’s Drug Research Unit (GDRU) of Guy’s Hospital, London, were responsible for the Clinical Trial Management, Monitoring and Pathology Analyses Drs Tim Mant and Dipti Amin were the Principal Investigators for the
Study Dr LW Sequeira, a British Virologist was contracted as an Independent Monitor
• The National Institute of Public Health, Prague, determined the drug absorption rate
• FARMOVS-PAREXEL , Bloemfontein, South Africa, an accredited Biopharmaceutical Laboratory conducted the Pharmacokinetics Analyses
• Quintiles ClinData were responsible for the Data Management, Statistical
Analysis, Data Audits, Medical writing as well as the Final Study Report

Phase I Safety Results
• The drug was generally well tolerated
• There were no clinically significant changes in the relevant blood values
• There were no serious adverse events
• Mild transient discomfort such as nausea, headache, or local skin irritation was experienced in some cases

Clinical Conclusion
• The Study Report indicated that a single dose of Virodene® PO58 is safe
• The data derived from this study provides the information for Phase II Clinical Studies in HIV/AIDS volunteer subjects

PHASE II CLINICAL TRIALS – TANZANIA

A double blind, placebo-controlled Clinical Trial was conducted to evaluate the safety, tolerability, pharmacokinetics and efficacy of multiple doses of Virodene® PO58 on 64 HIV/AIDS infected male volunteers. 2000 – 2004 With the exception of GDRU, the Clinical Research Organizations (CRO) involved in the Phase I Study were contracted to conduct this Clinical Trial according to ICH guidelines for Good Clinical Practice (GCP).

• Quintiles ClinData wrote the Protocol for the above Study in co-operation with the Company and designed and provided all the required study documentation
• Quintiles MCC Consultants designed the Clinical Trial Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs)
• Quintiles Clindepharm did a feasibility study for conducting the trials in Tanzania at the selected sites, Lugalo General Military Hospital and Chadibwa Medical Clinic
• The Tanzanian Peoples Defence Force were contracted to conduct the trial under the guidance and supervision of the Clinical Trial Manager
• Lugalo General Military Hospital was selected as the main contracted site centre and Chadibwa Medical Clinic to handle the subjects overflow Drs Jason Bigambo and Neema Simkoko were appointed as the local Investigators who conducted the Clinical Trial with the support of comprehensive local clinical teams Dr LW Sequeira, a British Virologist was contracted as the Co-Investigator
• Two local Independent Medical Monitors were contracted to:
Ensure ICH for GCP adherence during the Trial
To take medical decisions regarding patient safety

• The following Regulatory Bodies and Ethics Committees approved the Protocol
A Supranational Review Board (IRB/IEC)
The Tanzanian Minister of Health
The Tanzanian Military Medical Council
Lugalo General Military Hospital Ethics Committee
Chadibwa Medical Clinic Ethics Committee

• Lloyds of London insured the Clinical Trial
• Pharma Research Consultants were contracted as Clinical Trial Manager, to manage, oversee & monitor the Clinical Trial and CRF completion
• Pathcare, an Internationally Accredited Laboratory in SA did the Bio-Pharmaceutical Analyses
• Quint i les Cl inData were responsible for the Medical wr i t ing, Data Management, Statistical Analysis, Data Audits, as well as the Final Study Report

Safety Results

• The drug was generally well tolerated
• There were no clinically significant changes in the relevant blood values
• No serious adverse events occurred

Side Effects

• Mild transient discomfort such as nausea, headache, or local skin irritation was experienced in some cases

Efficacy Results

• The immune system indicator (CD4/T4 cell count) increased from a mean of 225 to 324 cells/mm3 of blood
• By comparison, subjects who did not receive Virodene® (placebo group) showed an insignificant increase (260.5 to 291 cells/mm3)

Clinical Conclusion

Virodene® PO58 proved to be safe, well tolerated, and efficacious in immune compromised (HIV/AIDS) volunteers.
« Last Edit: 26/01/2009 10:36:20 by testtest »

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #18 on: 28/01/2009 16:05:50 »
Bored Chemist I am currently sourcing the data with regards to ozone and chlorine dioxide and why their mechanism of action is so similar. Be patient with me as it's tax return time.

Here is a link to Jim Humbles book all about his experiences with MMS/sodium chlorite/chlorine dioxide if your interested, please ignore the title of this link Jim humble only ever claimed that it cured malaria not HIV or hepatitus.

newbielink:http://www.scribd.com/doc/932837/Sodium-Chlorite-Rid-Body-of-HIV-Hep-Malaria-in-3-days- [nonactive]

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #19 on: 28/01/2009 19:27:26 »


If you are going to say "As far as DMF goes I know absolutely nothing about it so I can't comment until I've read both sides of it's use." then you really need to read the other side too.
http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/DI/N,N-dimethylformamide.html
"Harmful by inhalation, ingestion or skin contact. May act as a carcinogen. Ingestion or absorption through skin may be fatal. Exposure may result in foetal death. Long-term exposure may result in kidney or liver damage. Irritant. "
I'd also like to see the statistics behind this claim
"• The immune system indicator (CD4/T4 cell count) increased from a mean of 225 to 324 cells/mm3 of blood
• By comparison, subjects who did not receive Virodene® (placebo group) showed an insignificant increase (260.5 to 291 cells/mm3)"
Since the changes are both of similar magnitude this is a rather weak claim. Doing nothing increased the count by about a third as much as the "treatment", which is odd in a progressive disease.
So there's, at best, weak evidence of a beneficial effect (which almost certainly isn't clinically significant) and strong evidence of long- term toxicity (which could never have shown up in the so-called safety testing cited because it was very short term.)
That's not the sort of evidence I'd like. At best it shows that small doses of the stuff don't cause harm that is aparent within a short timr (of course, all the volunteers might have died the day after the trial ended- that's why I'd like to see a proper trial, but only after there's some good animal data showing that the stuff offers a real benfit in terms of disease progression and or longevity)

Also, while you say there's no evidence that the conventional treatments work I think it's clear that AIDS patients in the West now live longer than they used to, so something must be helping them. If it's not the drugs then what  can you sugest?

As for Chlorite vs malaria I covered it before. I'm not reading the whole 275 page book. It starts off by describing exactly the sort of thing you would expect for a relapsing disease- no evidence other than that malaria comes and goes- it's famous for dioing that.
You still need to explain how a very reactive species gets from the stomach into the blood and then into the parasites without reacting with something on the way. Until you can do that the story isn't plausible.



Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #20 on: 29/01/2009 15:26:09 »
The following bits of info should satisfy you that it does make its way into the blood when taken orally.

From newbielink:http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0496.htm [nonactive]

"Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) in drinking water rapidly degrades to chlorite (ClO2-), chlorate (ClO3-), and chloride ion (Cl-). In an epidemiology study by Michael et al. (1981), chlorine dioxide rapidly disappeared from the stored water (within 2-4 hours) and water chlorite concentrations concomitantly increased. Once absorbed, chlorine dioxide and chlorite are cleared from the blood at similar rates and are similarly distributed throughout the body (Abdel-Rahman et al., 1979, 1982). Additionally, chloride is the major in vivo degradation product for chlorine dioxide, chlorite, and chlorate. The available data suggest that chlorine dioxide and chlorite have similar targets of toxicity and potencies. Therefore, the toxicity information for chlorite is relevant to deriving an RfD for chlorine dioxide. See also the oral RfD entry in the IRIS Summary for chlorite."

Also from newbielink:http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a784744404~db=all [nonactive]

"Chlorine dioxide (CIO2) is under consideration as an alternative to chlorination as a disinfectant for public water supplies. The primary products resulting from CIO2 disinfection of surface waters are chlorite (CIO2-) and chlorates (CIO3-). The kinetics of 36CIO2- and 36CIO3- was studied in rats. Radioactivity was rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract following the administration of (0.17 μ Ci)36CIO2- or (0.85 μ Ci)36CIO3- orally, and 36CI in plasma reached a peak at 2 hours and 1 hour, respectively. After 72 hours, radioactivity was highest in whole blood, followed by packed cells, plasma, stomach, testes, skin, lung, kidney, duodenum, carcass, spleen, ileum, brain, bone marrow, and liver in 36CIO2- treatment. 36CI excretion was greatest at 24 hours after the administration of 36CIO3-, but in the 36CIO2-, the excretion most likely represented saturation of the biotransformation and excretion pathways. About 40% of the total initial dose was excreted at 72 hours in the urine and feces in both treatments. No 36CI was detected in expired air throughtout the 72 hours studied. "

From newbielink:http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/sodrite/cie114.htm [nonactive]

" If ingested, corrosive materials can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, cramps and pain. Sodium chlorite can also cause temporary damage to the red blood cells* based on limited animal and human information. A man intentionally consumed 10 g sodium chlorite in 100 mL of water."

*This shows that it is reaching the red blood cells and hence the malaria parasite. Makes me laugh that this nutjob actually drank 10grams of the stuff, about 2 heaped teaspoons full.

From newbielink:http://www.lenntech.com/chlorine_dioxide.htm [nonactive]

"Of the oxidizing biocides, chlorine dioxide is the most selective oxidant. Both ozone and chlorine are much more reactive than chlorine dioxide, and they will be consumed by most organic compounds. Chlorine dioxide however, reacts only with reduced sulphur compounds, secondary and tertiary amines, and some other highly reduced and reactive organics. This allows much lower dosages of chlorine dioxide to achieve a more stable residual than either chlorine or ozone. Chlorine dioxide, generated properly (all chlorine dioxide is not created equal), can be effectively used in much higher organic loading than either ozone or chlorine because of its selectivity."

From newbielink:http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118790074/abstract [nonactive]

"The malaria parasite Plasmodium falciparum is highly adapted to cope with the oxidative stress to which it is exposed during the erythrocytic stages of its life cycle. This includes the defence against oxidative insults arising from the parasite's metabolism of haemoglobin which results in the formation of reactive oxygen species and the release of toxic ferriprotoporphyrin IX. Central to the parasite's defences are superoxide dismutases and thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases; however, they lack catalase and glutathione peroxidases. The vital importance of the thioredoxin redox cycle (comprising NADPH, thioredoxin reductase and thioredoxin) is emphasized by the confirmation that thioredoxin reductase is essential for the survival of intraerythrocytic P. falciparum[/u]. The parasites also contain a fully functional glutathione redox system and the low-molecular-weight thiol glutathione is not only an important intracellular thiol redox buffer but also a cofactor for several redox active enzymes such as glutathione S-transferase and glutaredoxin. Recent findings have shown that in addition to these cytosolic redox systems the parasite also has an important mitochondrial antioxidant defence system and it is suggested that lipoic acid plays a pivotal part in defending the organelle from oxidative damage."

Thomas Lee Hesselinks article[1] was to propose further research into its potential use in malaria. I have now read it three times and I fail to see how it does not deserve further research as it will burn up the parasites thioredoxin(see above and Hesselinks article) leaving it completely vunerable to more chlorite ions and H2O2 being produced from neutrophils. The American Chemical Society, Analytical Chemistry Division stated in 1999 that chlorine dioxide is the most powerful killer of pathogens known to man so I'm betting if chlorite ions come into contact with an infected red blood cell the process will be antipathogenic. Medically oriented references for its use as a potential medicine do not exist(as yet). Obviously there are financial issues with this happening in the west so I wont be holding my breath for GlaxoSmithkline to do a study. 

You stated it doesn't work - personally I think the correct answer is that it may work and thus deserves more attention. I personally do not doubt it. One thing to remember is because of the ease of administration of MMS is that results for treating any type of infection should be easy to test.

The only illness I have had which I had the chance to use this(unactivated sodium chlorite) on was the dreaded winter vomiting bug the symptoms of which were much less severe and shorter than the rest of my household. Because of this I will always keep hold of the stuff.

As far as HIV goes below is a link where the British Medical Journal generously hosted an internet debate concerning the nature and causes of AIDS beginning with David Rasnick's February 2003 response to a paper entitled The Politics of AIDS in South Africa, and continuing until April 2005. Not one mainstream HIV expert could provide evidence of a long term controlled trial showing drugs prolonged lives so until the evidence is provided the jury is still out. You quite correctly stated people are living longer and there are people who take meds and have lived for 20+ years but there are also lots of people who have been alive the same length of time completely drug free. Both sides of this argument will tell you that gays in the 80's were partying every night, taking drugs and having multiple unprotected sexual contacts per week and taking antibiotics like they were going out of fashion for other STD's, combine this with a poor understanding at the time of HIV nutrition and it is no wonder that they died quicker than they do today.

newbielink:http://healtoronto.com/survivors.html#wells [nonactive]

newbielink:http://www.rethinking.org/bmj/index.html [nonactive]

[1]On The Mechanisms Of Toxicity Of Chlorine Oxides Against Malarial Parasites - An Overview By Thomas Lee Hesselink,MD newbielink:http://nodiseaseinfo.com/mechanisms.htm [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 29/01/2009 18:48:34 by testtest »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #21 on: 29/01/2009 20:01:22 »
OK, so
"Once absorbed, chlorine dioxide and chlorite are cleared from the blood at similar rates and are similarly distributed throughout the body (Abdel-Rahman et al., 1979, 1982)."
Shows that the stuff isn't stable in blood, but gives no idea of how long the stuff survives.
"Radioactivity was rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract following the administration of (0.17 μ Ci)36CIO2- or (0.85 μ Ci)36CIO3- orally, "
That shows that the Cl is absorbed, but it doesn't say in what oxidation state. It's possible that the bulk of the stuff is reduced to chloride before crossing the gut wall.

"Sodium chlorite can also cause temporary damage to the red blood cells*"
That proves that the stuff reacts with red blood cells. Having done so it is no longer in a position to damage the parasites.

" Chlorine dioxide, generated properly (all chlorine dioxide is not created equal), "
Ridiculous- this requires ClO2 to have a memory of how it was made. Clearly nonsense, but just the sort of thing you have to say to explain why your "miracle cure" didn't work this time.

"Chlorine dioxide however, reacts only with reduced sulphur compounds, secondary and tertiary amines, and some other highly reduced and reactive organics"
The body is full of thiols and amines so there's plenty to destroy the stuff before it could do any good.

Incidentally, those same thiols are a large part of the reason why mercury and arsenic are toxic.


Why no animal studies of this stuff against malaria?
That would be pretty convincing and less of an ethical dilema than human studies (in my view anyway- if someone wants to talk about the ethics of animal experimentation please set up your own thread)

Also that "Humble" bloke doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Here are a couple of quotes
"resultant solution is always mixed into a glass of water or apple juice and taken orally"
"Significant amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point in the mixtures or else this will quench the chlorine dioxide (ClO2).

Now, since there's vitamin C in apple juice...

While we are at it,
"For the same reason antioxidant supplements should not be taken on the day of treatment. "
Now, in the real world it's not just suplements that contain anti oxidants. Food does too.
How come the people taking this stuff are not advised to avioid foods with antioxidants in them? (and BTW, that's a lot of foods you would need to "restrict".
Unless the people involved in the trial happened not to eat any fresh fruit or veg they would kill this "medicine".
Were they all living on meat pies?



« Last Edit: 29/01/2009 20:11:03 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #22 on: 29/01/2009 22:11:33 »
You said "That proves that the stuff reacts with red blood cells. Having done so it is no longer in a position to damage the parasites."

Why does that mean it can no longer damage the parasites? Please bear in mind the parasite lives in red blood cells and the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite.

You said "this requires ClO2 to have a memory of how it was made. Clearly nonsense, but just the sort of thing you have to say to explain why your "miracle cure" didn't work this time."

I didn't really know where you were coming from with this as it was evident to me that this was written in the context of talking about the quality of output of chlorine dioxide generators. I placed that bit of info in there to show that it doesn't react immediately with organic compounds like other oxidisers.

You said "The body is full of thiols and amines so there's plenty to destroy the stuff before it could do any good."

Yes correct - of course some of it will react with components other than red blood cells. But it is still going to react with red blood cells.

You said "Incidentally, those same thiols are a large part of the reason why mercury and arsenic are toxic."

Mercury and arsenic as we all know are toxic. There is no data to show that sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide act as carcinogens in any way.

newbielink:http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0496.htm [nonactive]
newbielink:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474471 [nonactive]

You said "Why no animal studies of this stuff against malaria?
That would be pretty convincing and less of an ethical dilema than human studies (in my view anyway- if someone wants to talk about the ethics of animal experimentation please set up your own thread)"

That might be because malaria only affects humans.

You said "Also that "Humble" bloke doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Here are a couple of quotes
"resultant solution is always mixed into a glass of water or apple juice and taken orally"
"Significant amounts of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) must not be present at any point in the mixtures or else this will quench the chlorine dioxide (ClO2).

Now, since there's vitamin C in apple juice...

While we are at it,
"For the same reason antioxidant supplements should not be taken on the day of treatment. "
Now, in the real world it's not just suplements that contain anti oxidants. Food does too.
How come the people taking this stuff are not advised to avioid foods with antioxidants in them? (and BTW, that's a lot of foods you would need to "restrict".
Unless the people involved in the trial happened not to eat any fresh fruit or veg they would kill this "medicine".
Were they all living on meat pies?"

Well in a glass of apple juice(not fresh) most ascorbic acid is actually added as a preservative and were talking milligrams here even in food the amount of antioxidants would soon be burned up in the body by ingesting an oxidiser. I'm sure this information is aimed at people taking 10 grams of vit c or some selenium daily or some other such equivalent. But personally I wouldn't use anything with any vit c in just citric or acetic acid in credit to Humble he did say "Significant amounts of vitamin c".
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 14:10:34 by testtest »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #23 on: 16/03/2009 21:45:17 »
"the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite."
Er? What?
"Yes correct - of course some of it will react with components other than red blood cells. But it is still going to react with red blood cells."
Which is a pity since red blood cells are important.
Of course, in order to get to the paprsite it needs to get through the wall of the red blood cell, not react with it.

"Mercury and arsenic as we all know are toxic. There is no data to show that sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide act as carcinogens in any way."
Er, actually there's plenty of evidence to sugest that chlorine dioxide is toxic- not least the fact that it reacts with lots of important bits of the body. I know- I have inhaled some and I can assure you it buggers up your lungs. That it isn't a carcinogen is hardly the point- Mercury is, at most, a very poor carcinogen, but I wouldn't go sprinkling it on my breakfast.

"That might be because malaria only affects humans."
Or it might not, since malaria does affect other animals.
Have a look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmodium

Straightforward lies like that don't help your credibility you know.

Humble did say "Significant amounts of vitamin c"."
Those who do not ingest "significant" quantities of vitamin C get scurvy- if they carry on, they die.







Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline testtest

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 11
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #24 on: 17/03/2009 01:03:26 »
You wrote:

"Straightforward lies like that don't help your credibility you know."

After I read your post and stopped laughing I started to wonder if you take any anti psychotic medication or maybe that's just my opinion, but hey what's my opinion worth as I've got no credibility anyway apparently!

Ok I wrote:

"the supply of chlorine dioxide is not finite." This simply means - are you ready for this, deep breath ok? - YOU JUST TAKE MORE OF IT.

You wrote:

"Which is a pity since red blood cells are important.
Of course, in order to get to the paprsite it needs to get through the wall of the red blood cell, not react with it."

Blood cells are important oh I never knew that thankyou for sharing that with us, yawn... Well if you look at newbielink:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Xi3hnhtbg [nonactive] you will see that there is practically no RBC wall left in a maturing Plasmodium falciparum. Hmmm that's not a lot of protection. Oh and by the way it's an established fact that diseased cells (any cells that is) antioxidant capability is either not funtioning or at the very least hindered before apoptosis happens.

You wrote:

"Er, actually there's plenty of evidence to sugest that chlorine dioxide is toxic"

Well I never said 'toxic' I said 'carcinogenic' which should be taken in the context of the size of ORAL doses used by people. Seeing as you like to mention animal studies so much there is one that comes to mind = 'Studies of carcinogenicity of sodium chlorite in B6C3F1 mice.'

I said:

"That might be because malaria only affects humans."

And then you said:

"Or it might not, since malaria does affect other animals.
Have a look here."

Which linked to: newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmodium [nonactive]

To quote from that page:

"Of the 200+ known species of Plasmodium, at least 10 species infect humans. Other species infect animals, including birds, reptiles and rodents. The parasite always has two hosts in its life cycle: a mosquito vector and a vertebrate host."

If you had even bothered to read wikipedias malaria page ( newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria [nonactive])NOT PLASMODIUM page you would find:

"The malaria parasites do not affect animal species and therefore eradication of the disease from the human population would be expected to be effective."


I really can't wait for your next answer hopefully you can give me one when you get back from school tomorrow, but then again I expect your really busy with maintaining all your credibility. [:D]

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #25 on: 17/03/2009 20:54:41 »
Meanwhile, back on the planet earth.
It's been a while since I went to school.

Animal models used for testing are generally not exactly the same species as the human forms of the diseases- that's why they are models.
The particular parasite that infects humans doesn't generally infect other animals (whoever wrote the wiki page on malaria might be guilty of sloppy writing, but I don't think many people would have interpreted it the way you did) and the forms that infect other animals don't generally infect us. So what? The animal forms can still be used as a model, and they are.
Here's an example.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=347712
Now, from that article about malaria in mice it's pretty clear that mice get malaria.
From that it's pretty clear that your assertion that "malaria only affects humans" suffer somewhat from being totally at odds with reallity or, to put it bluntly, it's not true.

BTW, why did you bother to introduce the matter of carcinogenicity? Were you hoping that nobody would spot the blatant strawman or did you somehow think it would bolster your credibility?

« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 21:03:31 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline jeremiyah

  • First timers
  • *
  • 2
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #26 on: 23/03/2009 08:55:19 »



   "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."
When was the last time you priced it? And successfully purchased some? NOT? NOT!



   "To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap."  Where do "my own feeling" and "load of crap" enter into a "scientific" discussion? Your presupposition  that it is a  "load of crap" is based, not an educated hypothesis, followed by a series of double blind tests during which you compiled "empirical evidence" (ever heard the phrase before?) and proved or disproved your hypothesis, but rather on "my own feeling." Question; why do you write on this forum? You should be on a religion or psychology based forum- something where emotion,  and "touchy-feely" attitudes mean something. "Did you wake up feeling like this...what did you feel when you read about MMS?"

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #27 on: 23/03/2009 09:21:59 »
   "To put it bluntly, my own feeling about this sodium chlorite business is that it is a load of crap."  Where do "my own feeling" and "load of crap" enter into a "scientific" discussion? Your presupposition  that it is a  "load of crap" is based, not an educated hypothesis, followed by a series of double blind tests during which you compiled "empirical evidence" (ever heard the phrase before?) and proved or disproved your hypothesis, but rather on "my own feeling." Question; why do you write on this forum? You should be on a religion or psychology based forum- something where emotion,  and "touchy-feely" attitudes mean something. "Did you wake up feeling like this...what did you feel when you read about MMS?"

Chris not mentioning the backing to his idea of this being "a load of crap" does not mean that he does not have good reason to think so.  Might I suggest that before you attack members of this forum in that way that you read their other posts so you will have a better idea of the attitudes of those you're attacking?

You could have asked Chris why he feels this way, and then he could have supplied the evidence or argument that led to his opinion.  Instead, you attacked him. This fosters bad feeling and will not encourage healthy discussion.

With my moderators hat on, I'd like to tell you that this is not how this forum works, and please refrain from personal attacks in the future.

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #28 on: 23/03/2009 20:04:28 »



   "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."
When was the last time you priced it? And successfully purchased some? NOT? NOT!

  
Jeremiyah
What could that possibly have to do with the question?
I don't have a dog and I never have had.
Accordingly I have never priced dog food or successfully purchased any.
That state of affairs says nothing about the cost of dog food.

On the other hand I have made chlorite and, had you read this thread fully and understood it, you would have known that.

Turning up on the forum as a new member, insulting one of the people there and failing to even read what another had said is not a good start.
Incidentally, it's possible that Chris had read and understood what I had written and that might have led him to think that the idea o using the stuff is "a load of crap". Lets face it the evidence shows that it is "a load of crap" and you have done absolutely nothing to show otherwise.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Raghavendra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 835
  • Quantum
    • View Profile
    • Raghavendra
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #29 on: 26/03/2009 07:47:45 »
It is used by village people [O8)] for small wounds !!!

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #30 on: 26/03/2009 21:02:19 »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline I

  • First timers
  • *
  • 1
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #31 on: 12/05/2009 04:52:58 »
Hey,

someone already posted a link to the original Document of "The Great Humble", but as scripd-flashbook, so here's the link to the download of the pdf:
newbielink:http://www.miraclemineral.org/part1.php [nonactive]

although the last post is > a month back, I couldn't help but toss in my 2 cents.

a) Humble is indeed a Quack and for a big part has no clue what he's talking about, some of this is just rubbish, some could be, but is unsupported claim

b) I also think he's dangerous and unethical - if his claims are true that he gave that stuff to ten thousands of people, often causing vomiting and other rather drastic side-effects - I wonder how many people actually died of that treatment after he left (or perhaps while he was there, but of course those deaths weren't related to this medicine).

c) if you read his book, you see that he tells us he actually got the WHO to test his miracle medicine (page 80-82 in the document above) and it failed - now I'd love to see a detailed protocol on what he did). As a true believer, Humble of course totally ignores this result.

d) oh and the man is also an idiot (sorry for my clear language) - it's a good read, he claims to have paid some guys $14000 for writing... well, something like an internet-worm that "spreads the truth" by email... (page 31) oh well, read this if you need a good laugh.


on the other hand, I find this really has the potential to be an antibiotic, I'd say.
I think testtest quoted some reasonably decent sources that show that the stuff at least passes into the bloodstream, although  we don't know what tissues it penetrates (or doesn't). A 2-4 hours lifetime isn't so great either, but considering that it's a fairly reactive (and volatile) molecule, that's neither surprising, nor does it mean it doesn't have enough time to kill bugs.

If you look at toxicity ... well, it's a bit weird - Chloride dioxide is EU-classified as T+ "very toxic" ( newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide [nonactive] ), but if you look a bit further:

LD50    292 mg/kg (oral, rat)
German Wikipedia:
    * 1.550 mg/kg (rat, oral, 5%-ige Lsg)(5)
    * 292 mg/kg (rat, oral)(6)(7)
    * 260 ppm/2h (LCLo, rat, inh)(8)

1.5 g/kg rat if you feed it a 5% solution!! (I wonder what the  300mg/kg are... other than the values from the German Wikipedia, this value is unsourced - go to de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlordioxid for references 5,6,7 and 8)

German Wikipeida also writes how amazingly resistant vertebrae are against chlorine dioxide and claims that their tolerance is about twentyfold of what is used for water-disinfection - which is a concentration that is deemed high enough to leave you with pathogen-free water... (also look at
  • Abdel-Rahman 1982, as cited by testest - rats were fed 1000mg/l in their drinking water for 90 days and more - hard to say what absolute value that would be... how much does a rat drink? How did they insure that the concentration stays so high with a volatile molecule?)


Of course, the argument that other than in water, there are lots and lots more reactive chemicals within the human body  which might just inactivate it very rapidly holds. That it can damage red blood cells shows that it *can* pass into the bloodstream, although from what I've seen it's not clear if that happens at insane concentrations fed to rats, where it just oxidizes everything in the stomach/gut inside and lining (that can be oxidized by it), and this way passes to the blood.

And apropos reacting to blood cells - it cannot be reacting preferentially and fast with blood cells, else how could the mice have survived for 90 days with 1g/l in their drinking water (note that according to (0) their levels of red blood cells went down within 30 days, but then went up to normal again)?

Destruction of the molecule definitely happens at concentrations 60 ppm (1) ...
Water disinfection uses up to 0.2mg/l that would be ...

newbielink:http://www.google.com/#q=((0.2g)%2F(67.45+g%2Fmol))+%2F+(1kg%2F(18g%2Fmol))+*+1+million [nonactive]

would be 53 ppm, if I didn't make a typo there.

Well, seems if you want it to enter the bloodstream, you need lots more... (lets see what amounts that Humble chappie claims to have given people - I'll post when I find out).

Not so surprisingly, it _is_ effective as a mouth-wash, though... (and I think someone patented it for that application, but I can't come up with a reference right now).


I

-------------------------------------------------------

(0) Abdel-Rahman 1982: newbielink:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1569035 [nonactive]

(1) newbielink:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474311 [nonactive]

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #32 on: 21/05/2009 20:56:35 »
Bored chemist wrote "It doesn't work. Pity."

I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...
« Last Edit: 22/05/2009 10:32:36 by Observer »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #33 on: 21/05/2009 22:14:36 »
Good luck.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline tris

  • First timers
  • *
  • 1
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #34 on: 15/06/2009 04:22:49 »
Bored chemist wrote "It doesn't work. Pity."

I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...

Observer debate:

Observer: I Claim x
Adversary: Show evidence supporting your claim
Observer: No, you show evidence disproving my claim

That's not how it works, sport.

"Testimonials" are not evidence.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #35 on: 15/06/2009 11:11:01 »
Wrong: I claim nothing at all. My "claim" as I mentioned remains open until I have reported my own experience. On the other hand a blatant claim was made that mms does not work. I merely asked on what evidence this claim was made. Maybe you ought to read the complete thread before you attempt to analyse with false deduction "sport" [:D]
« Last Edit: 15/06/2009 11:23:25 by Observer »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #36 on: 15/06/2009 19:00:38 »
Would all the people who keep telling me to provide evidence please read the thread.
In particular could they address the bit where I pointed out that "If it worked then malaria would be extinct because this stuff is cheap and easy to get."


Also I'd prefer if they answered without asking silly questions about whether or not I have personally purchased the stuff.

If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work.

Incidentally claiming that some gloop kills a disease is actualy the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #37 on: 16/06/2009 10:53:07 »
Bored Chemist wrote: "If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work." [???]


I will have to disagree with your deduction too.
It could be acceptable something like this:

If this stuff killed malaria AND it was administered in all areas where malaria existed, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore this stuff is not administered in all areas where malaria exists OR the stuff doesn't kill malaria.

Bored Chemist wrote:
"Incidentally claiming that some gloop kills a disease is actually the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence."

I will have to agree 100% on this one but as I have already stated I claim absolutely nothing about the success mms has on killing disease. In all fairness though, one can make no claims that it does not work based on false or illogical deductions. 

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #38 on: 16/06/2009 19:32:32 »
OK, now explain why, given that the stuff is cheap and readilly available, it isn't "administered in all areas where malaria existed".
It can't be that it's too expensive.
It has nothing to do with "big pharma" or patents.
It's not a matter of "because it's not in the big fancy journals, nobody dares use it".

Now, I apologise for not adding this point explicitly to my argument earlier, but I thought it was too obvious to bother.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #39 on: 17/06/2009 08:01:12 »
Bingo!

OK- Now I think we’re getting somewhere. This is a viable explanation as to why mms is not administered everywhere malaria exists. One would at this point (especially a bored scientist) would have to raise the question why nobody dare use it. There could be several reasons for this (I am sure we could think of many more):

1.) It is not known in certain regions of the globe (especially regions where malaria is prevalent).
2.) It is not offered by the pharmaceutical industry.
3.) It is not approved by the FDA, etc.
4.) Death or serious illness result as a consequence of using sodium chlorite  [xx(]

I do not have the answers. I ran across this forum because I am searching for answers. I am neither defending nor rejecting “mms” at this point. I can, like you, and everybody else who is exchanging information just speculate:

1.) Not all regions of the globe have ready access to pertinent information, especially the internet. This would make it extremely difficult to “spread the word.”

2.) For whatever reason this may be. I don’t even want to speculate on this one.

3.) Ditto

4.) Could be, but if that was the case, I would assume we would be seeing a whole lot of negative reports slipping into the media. If this was the case I would be endangered myself as I have been taking mms for 3 weeks now and feel great. A comparison of my lab results before and after my self-administered therapy will reveal if there are healing powers (for me).
« Last Edit: 17/06/2009 08:03:37 by Observer »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #40 on: 17/06/2009 19:38:25 »
Re "This is a viable explanation as to why mms is not administered everywhere malaria exists. "
No explanation was offered in that post.

An explanation was offered earlier (i.e. that it doesn't work) but you have rejected that.

Lets have a look at those 4 points again.
1 India has a significant malaria problem, a reasonably effetive government and enough links to the 'net (as well as other sources of information). Yet they too don't use this stuff.
One region of the world would do to prove the point.

2
You have proved that this is a red herring. Who cares what the pharmaceutical industry thinks? You take the stuff; so could others.

3
There might be a simple reason why it's not aproved, either it hasn't been tested or it has been tested and found to fail.

Most potential treatments don't get tested.
As far as I know nobody has ever tested rectally administered fishpaste, for example, as a cure for malaria. Nor has a double blind trial been done on blood letting by a leather clad virgin at the full moon.

There's a good reason why these sort of things don't get tried. It's because there's no reason to supose that they work.
You can't test everything.

Since the "evidence" for this stuff working is some quack saying that the stuff still works after you dissolve it in apple juice (which, in the real world, would destroy it) most people are not going to take that suggestion seriously. You can hardly blame the FDA and it's equivalents for doing so.

However
(here's the biggie) Doctors are permited to prescribe things that are not aproved by the FDA.

So, if they thought this stuff worked they would be duty bound to prescribe it.

4
It doesn't need to be very toxic to be not prescribed; a really good reason for not using it would be that it simply doesn't work.

Plenty of drugs (legal or otherwise) are responsible for lots of deaths; they still get used.

In order for chlorite to be used it would have to be effective and to offer benefits beyond the normal treatments.

And if you really believe that  "A comparison of my lab results before and after my self-administered therapy will reveal if there are healing powers (for me)." then you don't know a lot about drug testing.
 Spontaneous remission is not unheard of with hep c.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #41 on: 18/06/2009 07:24:56 »
Sorry for the typo. It should have read: "There is a viable explanation..."

But getting to the real point:

As I have stated time and again, I am looking for answers not silly assumptions and wannabe deductions. You don't have to feel obligated to give the answers if you can't provide them. You are of course like me and everybody else, entitled to your opinion though. Nothing wrong with that. I personally don't care for the way you attempt to dismiss the subject based solely on your opinions and I personally do not accept them. You may also put down conclusive lab results as not acceptable because of the fact that Hep C is known to be remissive. I would think that this should at least warrant a closer look as to why, just by sheer coincidence, it becomes spontaneously remissive after a sodium chlorite therapy. In the end, you may really be guessing right and there may be many many coincidences that would lead one to assume there is a benefit in chlorite effectively treating certain diseases. Nevertheless, should there be a positive development in my own lab results I will of course not put it down as coincidence. I will continue to search until I, for myself, have conclusive results. For all the others out there searching for answers maybe that would be just one little baby step in gaining momentum towards finding truth and not emotional mud slinging about something that, at this point and as far as I can tell, can neither be proved or dismissed. I will show results  based on facts. Others may decide for themselves. Maybe, if need be, we could construct a phrase like "persistant spontaneous remission" if things don't happen to turn out the way you would like to see them.
« Last Edit: 18/06/2009 11:32:47 by Observer »

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #42 on: 18/06/2009 19:45:20 »
"As I have stated time and again, I am looking for answers not silly assumptions and wannabe deductions."
Then start answering things and stop making them.

Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?

"You may also put down conclusive lab results as not acceptable "
I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect.
"I would think that this should at least warrant a closer look as to why, just by sheer coincidence, it becomes spontaneously remissive after a sodium chlorite therapy. "
All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing.
That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise).

" Nevertheless, should there be a positive development in my own lab results I will of course not put it down as coincidence."
OK, but you ought to realise that that statement is an act of faith, not science.
You have no evidence (bar a known logical fallacy) that it isn't a coincidence.
"I will continue to search until I, for myself, have conclusive results."
How?
"For all the others out there searching for answers maybe that would be just one little baby step in gaining momentum towards finding truth "
Or it could be a small step towards superstition, and ignorance. You simply cannot tell which on the basis of one person's result.

"Maybe, if need be, we could construct a phrase like "persistant spontaneous remission" if things don't happen to turn out the way you would like to see them. "
The way I would like to see things turn out is that someone comes up with a real malaria cure and that, in the same way as was done with smallpox, we eradicate this disease.
I don't see why you think we would need to make up some odd name for that.
What I don't want to see is scarce resources being used on a wild goosechase. I also don't want sick people exploited by snake oil salesmen. I also don't want to see these people's hopes raised by a false prophet, then dashed on the rocks of reallity. I was angry to see it done in South Africa where the government was trotting out some nonsense about AIDS being cured with the industrial solvent DMF.
Have you noticed, BTW, that it seems to be some of the same people who are claiming the wonders of chlorite?

Still that's enough about "the way" I "would like to see them"
What, exactly, do you want?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #43 on: 19/06/2009 12:29:19 »
"Then start answering things and stop making them."

Now that tops just about everything you have fabricated up until now… How can I answer if I am myself looking for answers. If and when I have some answers, I assure you, I will post them.

"Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?"
I certainly do not know this nor do I claim to.

"I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect."

If lab results are not reliable then if I were you I think I might start looking for a more rewarding job. Maybe that is why you are bored.


"All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing. That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise)."

So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm.  [::)]

"OK, but you ought to realise that that statement is an act of faith, not science.
You have no evidence (bar a known logical fallacy) that it isn't a coincidence."

It is enough for me to know that either I can influence the viral load positively (meaning lowering the count) or eliminate the virus altogether.


"How?"

By continuous positive results up to eliminating the virus. Even if it is sustained spontaneous instantaneous persistent repetitive remission.


"Or it could be a small step towards superstition, and ignorance. You simply cannot tell which on the basis of one person's result."

Correct but if others brave to try based on facts it may eventually be more that one persons results.

"The way I would like to see things turn out is that someone comes up with a real malaria cure and that, in the same way as was done with smallpox, we eradicate this disease.
I don't see why you think we would need to make up some odd name for that.
What I don't want to see is scarce resources being used on a wild goosechase. I also don't want sick people exploited by snake oil salesmen. I also don't want to see these people's hopes raised by a false prophet, then dashed on the rocks of reallity. I was angry to see it done in South Africa where the government was trotting out some nonsense about AIDS being cured with the industrial solvent DMF.
Have you noticed, BTW, that it seems to be some of the same people who are claiming the wonders of chlorite?

Still that's enough about "the way" I "would like to see them"
What, exactly, do you want?"

I already told you several times that I am searching for answers not trying to proliferate myself on shaky claims and false deductions which btw is not exactly what you might call scientific. I am also looking to rid myself of the Hep C virus. I am neither trying to create false hope nor put something down before I myself am convinced. You may be a lab assistant but you have not succeeded in convincing me of anything at all other than the strong negative emotion on this subject which maybe you have good reason for. It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn’t continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post.

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #44 on: 19/06/2009 12:33:06 »
To totally change the subject and threadjack this conversation for a minute - I've recently made a special edition podcast based on the events at Birmingham University as part of World Hepatitis Day.  As a Hep C sufferer, I'd be very interested in your opinion.

You can find the podcast and transcript here:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/specials/show/2009.06.10/

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #45 on: 19/06/2009 15:10:26 »
I would be happy to delve into the information this weekend. Shall I post my opinions on this thread?

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #46 on: 22/06/2009 11:29:42 »
Thanks for the link to the podcast. You touch on all the relevant subjects and offer concise “must have” information, especially for someone who is new to the subject. This would save a whole lot of time investigating various sources.

The information is also straightforward and easy to understand without getting lost in the details and complexities of the topic.

What I personally got out of the podcast was the reassurance that quantum leaps in the research of the furtive disease are being made and as a result smarter drugs are being developed with better response rates and less side effects than interferon/ribavirin.

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #47 on: 22/06/2009 22:05:03 »
"Now that tops just about everything you have fabricated up until now… How can I answer if I am myself looking for answers."
You can answer the point I raised.
Perhaps better than this which seems to be a cop out.
""Why has the Indian government not chosen to use this "miracle cure" to rid its people of malaria?"
I certainly do not know this nor do I claim to. "


"If lab results are not reliable then ..."
The results are reliable, but they can't do miracles. An important point of understanding science is understanding what its limits are.

"So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm."
Since I didn't say that it's a strawman. Please don't bother to do that again.

"It is enough for me to know that either I can influence the viral load positively (meaning lowering the count) or eliminate the virus altogether."

You can almost certainly do that, at least temporarily, via the placebo effect.

"
"How?"

By continuous positive results up to eliminating the virus. Even if it is sustained spontaneous instantaneous persistent repetitive remission.
"
That won't distinguish between spontaneous remission and a cure.

"Correct but if others brave to try based on facts it may eventually be more that one persons results."
I refer you back to the comment I made about fish paste.

"It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn't continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post.
"
I must be missing something here. This is your first post on the matter.



"I followed this thread Bored chemist and I must say I was quite amused with the emotion with which you reacted. Throughout the thread you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down. Even from a scientific perspective you offer no more evidence that mms doens't work than the so called quacks that claim that it does. Having said that it would make sense to me that the body would require a balance of both oxidents and anti-oxidents. Also from a non scientific standpoint but more a statistical one there sure are a lot of people out there in hundreds of different forums which have nothing to do with one another who are reporting positive results, some including very sound references. It is sad that medical cures must be "approved" by government organisations or administered by medical doctors in order to earn their credibility. I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
"

And, apart from the tacit implication that you are hoping for a cure (and I wish you luck BTW) there isn't any statement about what you actually want.

So, why, exactly did you say "...what I want which I stated in my very first post."

If you claim to be seeking proper scientific discussion I think you should leave out the logical fallacies like the post hoc one. You should skip the strawmen. You might want to cut out things like "You may be a lab assistant " and "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information " which might be take as ad hom attacks , particularly when based on apparently false statements like "otherwise you wouldn’t continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post."
(Oh, and it's a good idea not to include the false statements too.)

Incidentally, if you say "the moon is made of cheese" and I ask "how come it didn't melt when they landed a rocket driven ship on it?" it isn't an adequate response to say "I don't know".
You can do that in theology, but not in science. It is reasonable for me to ask questions. If you can't answer them that';s not my fault. The problem lies with your understanding, not mine.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Observer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #48 on: 23/06/2009 19:15:29 »
I certainly didn't enter the forum to argue with you about your perception of things. I stated in my first post that I would post my own experience. No claims, no cheese moons and no false deductions.

The thread is named "does sodium chlorite have healing powers?".

What I wanted and stated in my first post was to answer the original question not with false claims and false deductions but with facts based on my own experience. I don't have to convince you or anybody else. This is also no testimonial! Let us just call it an experiment at my cost no strings attached.

Now for the facts:
                 
                 March 2009                  June 2009
Gamma-GT           180 U/l                    80 U/l
GOT (AST)           86 U/l                    97 U/l
GOP (ALT)          278 U/l                   249 U/l

No cure but I will continue my experiment and post my results.

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8866
    • View Profile
Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #49 on: 23/06/2009 19:47:49 »
"I stated in my first post that I would post my own experience."
And then you said that, in that post, you had said something else; but you hadn't.
Why did you do that?
Why did you make up the strawman?
Why the ad hom attacks?

You also said "you never really gave us any credible basis for your blunt put down" which suggests that you missed this bit (posted 15/6/08), which is odd because there's quite a lot of it.

"OK, lets have a look at that web page. The first thing it says is
"Nothing in this article is intended as medical advice.
No claims, promises nor guarantees are made"
Interesting.

Then "This procedure rapidly eliminates malaria and other infectious agents in only one dose."
That's a claim, so one of the first things it says is a lie. So far, I'm not impressed.

Then it says "Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) is highly reactive with thiols, polyamines, purines, certain amino acids and iron, all of which are necessary for the growth and survival of pathogenic microbes."
Which is true enough. Of course, since all of those things are needed to grow microbes and there are microbes in the gut we have a problem. Any ClO2 in the gut would instantly react with one or more of those compounds- it would never get any further ( it would be destroyed in the mouth if it were there long enough).
Incidentally it also reacts with hydrochloric acid which is also present in the stomach.

Malaria is a relapsing disease- it comes and goes. If you have malaria and take snake oil it will sometimes look as if it has worked. Together with mankind's abillity to believe in what they want to happen, you can see how the section on "discovery" makes sense.

Then there are about 40 references that tell you that malaria is bad and what ClO2 is. Nice comprehesive background but of no real importance.
Looks impressive, buut doesn't actually tell you much, I mean what does "The Three-Electron Bond in Chlorine Dioxide. " have to do with malaria?.

Then there's a section headed "OXIDANTS AS PHYSIOLOGIC AGENTS"
It includes ther rather telling observation that "Some work has been done using dilute solutions of sodium chlorite internally to treat fungal infections, chronic fatigue, and cancer; however, little has been published in that regard". Well, positive results tend to get published so what does that say to you?
Then ther is another batch of only vaguely related references- things like "The Use Of Ozone In Medicine, " and "Decreased level of 2,3-diphosphoglycerate and
alteration of structural integrity in erythrocytes
infected with Plasmodium falciparum in vitro."
I'd love to see why someone thinks the first of those might be relevent to the use of chlorite- it's about an entirely different chemical.
At least the second is about themalaria parasite (Plasmodium falciparum ) but it's a report of someone having measured the effect (in a test tube ( in vitro)) on the levels some rather obscure chemical in red blood cells. That's worthy enough in its way, but it has nothing to do with using chlorite to treat malaria.

There are a few references like this one "Interferon-gamma activates the oxidative killing
of Candida albicans by human granulocytes. " that look like they might be relevent bu,t oxidative killing of freign cells by the body is one of its major defense mechanisms. It uses peroxy compounds- not ClO2.


Then there's a section headed "OXIDES OF CHLORINE AS DISINFECTANTS"
And a whole lot of references saying that chlorine and its oxides are useful disinfectants. There are two things to note here. Firstly none of these refers to malaria or plasmodium- which is a bit of a shame if you are trying to say this stuff killsthem. Secondly it's not news to anyone that strong oxidants kill bacteria etc. When Domestos advertised itself as "Kills all known germs. Dead." they were perfectly correct. (They didn't say that the same claim could be made by any bleach based product- but who can blame them).
Unfortunately you can't drink bleach and expect it to kill harmful bacteria. It's too reactive- all you will do is damage your stomach because the cells of the stomach are just as susceptible to bleach poisoning as the bacteria are.
The same is true of ClO2.

Then there's a section called "MALARIA IS OXIDANT SENSITIVE"
Which is true- so what? too high an oxygen concentration kills people.
Then there's lots of references, but none of them involves ClO2. There's a reason for that. The malaria parasite lives (at least some of the time) inside blood cells. If you add bleach or ClO2 you destroy the cells- so the malaria parasite is now "homeless".Its not a sensible test.

Trawling on there's a section about "TARGETING THIOLS"
Unfortunately,
1
that's what arsenic does- so it's not really a good start and
2
ClO2 dosn't really do it- it's a strong oxidant and atakcs pretty much the first thing it meets.

Again there's a whole lot of references that don't say much.


Then we have "HEME IS AN OXIDANT SENSITIZER"
Now that looks promising. The malaria parasite hangs out in red blood cells and there's a lot of heam in them. If the heam makes the oxidants more effective then it migh likk the bugs.
2 problems- if it makes the stuff more toxic in blood cells them most of what it kills will be blood cells. Not really what you want and also, remember way back at the begining I said that the stuff would be destroyed in the mouth and stomach. Well, just how much is going to get as far as the blood? How about none?
Then there's the usual run of references to make it look scientific.


We then come to "OVERCOMING ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE WITH OXIDATION"
Well, if this stuff kills malaria on its own we don't need to use the antibiotics. It seems they just admitted their claim was false.
Then they list a few pages more references to make it look good.


Then we come to the real killer (literally)
I will quote this in full
"SOME INCOMPATIBILITIES
Acidified sodium chlorite could provide a powerful new opportunity to improve or to restore sensitivity to quinolines by virtue of its oxidative power. However, quinolines contain secondary or tertiary amino groups which react with chlorine dioxide in such a way that both could destroy each other. Some possible strategies to resolve this incompatibility are suggested below.
Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action.
Patients already preloaded with a quinoline could stop this, wait a suitable period of time for this to wash out, then administer the acidified sodium chlorite.
The quinoline could remain in use and while the less active sodium chlorite is administered without acid. This should retain plenty of oxidant effectiveness without destroying any quinoline or wasting too much oxidant.
Switch from a quinoline to an endoperoxide (such as artemisinin) or to a quinone (such as atovaquone) before using acidified sodium chlorite, as these may be less sensitive toward destruction by chlorine dioxide.
Similar problems apply to methylene blue and many other drugs if they have an unoxidized sulfur atom, a phenol group, a secondary amine or a tertiary amine. Such are also very reactive with the chlorine dioxide component. [58a] "


Ok what that says is that the ClO2 reacts with some of the drugs used in (legitimate) treatment of malaria.
What they sugest doing about that is reckless if not criminal.
"Acidified sodium chlorite could be used as explained above only as a solo therapy.
Quinoline administration could be withheld until after the acidified sodium chorite has completed its action. "

They sugest using only this rubbish on its own and, if needs be, withdrawing treatment with an effective drug.

Yes, that's really what it measn
they are saying that you should stop taking drugs thatare known to work to treat malaria and take their impossible remedy instead.

Does anyone care what the particular problems with the rest of their page are?"

Which was it, didn't you read it, or didn't you understand it?

And, re. "This is also no testimonial! "
Actually, that's exactly what it is.
« Last Edit: 23/06/2009 19:49:50 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.