Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #50 on: 04/02/2009 15:59:48 »
I don't know if there are a God.

But I knew that some of the best, warmest and trustworthy people I've had the pleasure to know had had a very personal belief in God.

I also know that some of the worst people have asserted the same belief.
But 'time' will tell, as Bob Marley once wrote:)

That, as most other important questions in our life, are mostly 'ethical' after all.
Why should we care for whatever conditions 'food' animals have before we butcher them.
They're just food, right:)

And why not eat all meat, humans included?
Meat is meat, right?

And why care for someone you don't know?
Do they?

Care about you.

But if you take those 'responsibilities' away from us, as I see it, we will be 'lower' than any other animal we ever will meet.
Most of what we do to each other is grounded in 'beliefs' not in 'facts'.
That's what makes us grow, and at times, 'shrink' horribly.

To be a human human is not easy:)
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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #51 on: 04/02/2009 16:05:39 »
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Adam and Eve weren't married and they had 2 sons.
Weird. Try to read the bible again.

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Conscience came about as a result of rules.
My point exactly. The universe is made on rules. And you can't deny that. Rules that have been set.

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The problem I have with religious people is the constant "It has to be this" or "There is no other way". The thing is it doesn't have to be this and there are other ways; ways that have been scientifically proven. But you refuse to accept that fact. Biblical words are re-interpreted in the light of scientific advances and the religious fraternity say that proves God exists. No, it doesn't. It just proves that the original wording was ambiguous and can mean many different things - or nothing at all.

Yet again a generalization. Not all religions stick to the old belief. Some do admit that they misinterpreted the bible. I don't argue the big bang for example or stick to the belief that everything was made in 7 days. The guys who try to argue with these are the ones that taint religion (another work of the devil).

Social evolution would not result into such love, kindness and morality. People don't have those tenancies naturally.

Science and religion (true) are very compatible and mutual. Science helps us to understand God better. Religion fills in the blanks where science can't go like death, life, the beginning and human nature. or even magic.

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #52 on: 04/02/2009 16:12:10 »
Quote from: yor_on
To be a human human is not easy:)
Hi yor_on; I have concluded that you are one. [:)] If not more.

Brotherly love is a human trait I suspect. I doubt that deities are the inspiration for it.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #53 on: 04/02/2009 16:23:08 »
So are you Vern :)
Most of us are i believe.

Sometimes we don't know it ourself:)
We just need to be tested.
And we all will get 'tested' at times.

So maybe there is a human 'arrow' too?
Getting us closer to 'humanity'.

When I was in Goa I meet this Indian guy who gave me a new angle to the problem.
He separated between what he called humans, and 'real humans'.
Sounds stupid perhaps, but there and then, it was quite a revelation for me.

As it made sense, we are all humans, but it takes something more to become a 'real human'.
Will or a need or something, but there is a difference, I think?
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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #54 on: 04/02/2009 16:26:26 »
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Wow ! I did not even know that magic is real. Shows how much I know

I live in Africa. Trust me, it is real. Not only the bunny out of hat type but sometimes really weird. You don't see it everyday and with the world's advancements it is getting less and less. But their are undeniable instances.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #55 on: 04/02/2009 16:33:06 »
First or 'second hand' instances demadone?
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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #56 on: 04/02/2009 16:52:12 »
Quote from: demadone
I live in Africa. Trust me, it is real. Not only the bunny out of hat type but sometimes really weird. You don't see it everyday and with the world's advancements it is getting less and less. But their are undeniable instances.

That reminds me of the time when I was standing out in an open field, when suddenly, quick as a flash, the sky clouded over and a great rumbling happened. A beautiful man figure appeared, young and strong looking just floating there before me. His voice was so strong and compelling that one immediately knew they must obey.

He said, "Design me a universe, engineer, and don't make it complicated. It shall consist of nothing save empty space and my electric and magnetic phenomena."

"Yes Sir," I said, dropping to my knees.

Then He was gone. I designed that universe. Then God moved all existing humanity into it, and here we are now.

Now; was that real? Or is there some experiment that anyone can devise that will show that I was just dreaming, and we can not possibly be in that universe that I designed for the Almighty?

« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 21:13:09 by Vern »

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Offline Don_1

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #57 on: 04/02/2009 17:01:11 »


I BELIEVE OH GREAT ONE, I shall go forth and tell all mankind
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #58 on: 04/02/2009 20:03:21 »
 [;D] [;D] [;D] [::)] [::)] [::)]
« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 21:14:37 by Vern »

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #59 on: 04/02/2009 21:21:46 »
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My point exactly. The universe is made on rules. And you can't deny that. Rules that have been set.
Demadone.
What do you mean by "set"? Just because things behave consistently doesn't have to imply that 'someone' designed it that way. Your's is only one possible interpretation of the situation.  It's many years since Scientists treated Laws of Science as Laws of God.

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Religion fills in the blanks where science can't go like death, life, the beginning and human nature. or even magic.
Precisely. If you find it too hard to understand, then put it down to God. A little while ago, God was used to explain many more unknowns.

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #60 on: 04/02/2009 23:26:52 »
Why do so many Atheists make a religion out of their Atheism?
What makes them so twitchy about a God?
I think it's because of what has been called the 'God Gene'. Whether rational or irrational, we have all evolved with a need for a Jimminy Cricket to regulate our behaviour. Atheists also have a Jimminy Cricket but it gives us an internal conflict; you have to acknowledge the need to 'be good' but can't allow yourself to be told, on religious grounds, how to behave. It needs a lot of intellectual effort to be a true non-religious atheist.
So no atheist should be surprised that there a people who believe in a God; it's by far the easiest way to be.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 23:29:37 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #61 on: 05/02/2009 00:53:31 »
I don't know why some folks do that; I don't do that. When I am in church, I try my best to look just like all the other happy true believers. I don't advocate either way.

About the only time I will be there is at funerals and weddings [:)]

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #62 on: 05/02/2009 01:55:22 »
Why do so many Atheists make a religion out of their Atheism?
What makes them so twitchy about a God?
I think it's because of what has been called the 'God Gene'. Whether rational or irrational, we have all evolved with a need for a Jimminy Cricket to regulate our behaviour. Atheists also have a Jimminy Cricket but it gives us an internal conflict; you have to acknowledge the need to 'be good' but can't allow yourself to be told, on religious grounds, how to behave. It needs a lot of intellectual effort to be a true non-religious atheist.
So no atheist should be surprised that there a people who believe in a God; it's by far the easiest way to be.
I'm not sure what you mean by that post.
Are you suggesting that people need religion to be good? That is certainly untrue.

If you are also asking why atheists becme irritated by religious nonsense, I can tell you that in my case it's because it's nonsense, which has the potential to corrupt minds, by blinding them to reason, enforcing ignorance, and in the worst cases, promoting evil deeds in the guise of god's will. 
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline justaskin

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #63 on: 05/02/2009 02:06:44 »
So three pages on.What was that mathematical proof again.I don't think it was actually stated was it.
Maybe X+Y=GOD

Cheers
justaskin

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #64 on: 05/02/2009 08:50:09 »
Stephan
I am saying that we all have strong, built-in, mechanisms which regulate behaviour. How do people explain / rationalize the results of it? They attribute it to an outside agency: God.
It seems to me to be a fair enough interpretation if they don't / can't think it through.
Why get so hot under the collar about it?
I can't be too surprised that they hang on to it like a drowning man.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #65 on: 05/02/2009 08:54:45 »
Stephan
I am saying that we all have strong, built-in, mechanisms which regulate behaviour. How do people explain / rationalize the results of it? They attribute it to an outside agency: God.
It seems to me to be a fair enough interpretation if they don't / can't think it through.
That I can agree with. It would be nice if they did think it through though.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Don_1

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #66 on: 05/02/2009 09:26:55 »
As an athiest, I have no objection to those who wish to believe in any God. We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs.

But I object to those who claim there is a mathematical or scientific proof of the existance of a God. There CANNOT be any such proof and the concept is beyond belief.

2 + 2 = God???
2 atoms H + 1 atom O = God???
E = God???

You might just as well say this:

10gms self raising flour + 10gms castor sugar + 10gms butter + 2 eggs, bake in oven at 180oC for 25 mins = God. IT DOES NOT, it = Victoria Sponge.
2 + 2 = 4
2 atoms H + 1 atom O = Water
E = MC2
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #67 on: 05/02/2009 09:59:33 »
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What makes them so twitchy about a God?
They are religious too. Just that they don't realize that believing that God exists not is also believing. They laugh at the word 'believe' and end up doing the same thing and fight tooth and nail to defend that belief.

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If you are also asking why atheists becme irritated by religious nonsense, I can tell you that in my case it's because it's nonsense, which has the potential to corrupt minds, by blinding them to reason, enforcing ignorance, and in the worst cases, promoting evil deeds in the guise of god's will.

A generalization. Not religion teaches nonsense. If only you knew. Sometimes it is the assumption that the only guys who are religious are the ignorant and low level thinkers.

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What do you mean by "set"? Just because things behave consistently doesn't have to imply that 'someone' designed it that way.

Rules are always set. Give an example of organization that results from Chaos. Developed nations are only such because of being organized. If rules are not set or followed nothing works well. An example is the global financial crisis.

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #68 on: 05/02/2009 10:07:16 »
Stephan
I am saying that we all have strong, built-in, mechanisms which regulate behaviour. How do people explain / rationalize the results of it? They attribute it to an outside agency: God.
It seems to me to be a fair enough interpretation if they don't / can't think it through.
That I can agree with. It would be nice if they did think it through though.
That would involve what is referred to as 'formal thought'. Very few humans actually engage in formal thought. Why do you think Football is the main topic of conversation in most groups of humans? Yawn.

Demadone
Yet more circular arguments from you, I'm afraid.

Saying that we 'believe' just because we are thinking about it is totally begging the question. Your model is not the only one which can apply.
Why are rules 'set'?
I have already dealt with the difference between Scientific 'Laws' and the laws which the Church used to say that God imposes.


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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #69 on: 05/02/2009 10:12:54 »
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But I object to those who claim there is a mathematical or scientific proof of the existence of a God.

Not to sure what that can mean. I don't think there is any scientific or mathematical proof of anyone's existence. You either know or you don't know. Believe that Hitler existed or don't believe. That Christ existed or didn't. Maths and science are not for proving individuals.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #70 on: 05/02/2009 10:29:36 »
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Saying that we 'believe' just because we are thinking about it is totally begging the question. Your model is not the only one which can apply.

I find it hard to accept that most of you are 'thinking' about it. To me it's more like you have reached the conclusion. I call it worship because you refuse to think outside the box of what you believe. God is rather obvious when you do. Also I'm not saying worship is sticking to a conclusion because that's the dangerous kind of worship. Sometimes we need to adjust. We adjust if all the dots connect and if there are fewer questions left to be answered.

The foresight exhibited in nature and it's beginning tell of a very intelligent being, which chaos does not.

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Offline Don_1

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #71 on: 05/02/2009 10:46:46 »
I think someone should initiate a forum dedicated to the argument between religion Vs atheism and creation Vs evolution, where all those who want to try to convert each other can do so, rather than putting up a barrage of such topics on TNS. Do religious forums have a constant barrage from evolutionists and atheists trying to convert them?
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline dentstudent

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #72 on: 05/02/2009 10:52:26 »
I think someone should initiate a forum dedicated to the argument between religion Vs atheism and creation Vs evolution, where all those who want to try to convert each other can do so, rather than putting up a barrage of such topics on TNS. Do religious forums have a constant barrage from evolutionists and atheists trying to convert them?

I AGREE! I've already had a comment about this....Don - I guess that you should make a comment in the feedback section....

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #73 on: 05/02/2009 11:09:35 »
We're trying to answer a beginning. What was there before the singularity. Who made the rules of the universe we live in. The very one's this forum is all about.

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Offline justaskin

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #74 on: 05/02/2009 11:46:49 »
 
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  Why do you think Football is the main topic of conversation in most groups of humans?
Now SC you can slag off those other religions as much as you like but when it comes to slagging off football well thats heresy. [;D]

Cheers
justaskin

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Offline justaskin

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #75 on: 05/02/2009 11:56:46 »
We're trying to answer a beginning.
No I think we were supposed to be proving the existence of god using mathematics'
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What was there before the singularity.
God knows.
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Who made the rules of the universe we live in.
God knows
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The very one's this forum is all about.
No this forum is about science.Which seems to have been left behind a long time ago in this thread.

Cheers
justaskin

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #76 on: 05/02/2009 13:41:47 »
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  Why do you think Football is the main topic of conversation in most groups of humans?
Now SC you can slag off those other religions as much as you like but when it comes to slagging off football well thats heresy. [;D]

Cheers
justaskin
Yes yes - I know it's more serious than life and death!!
I thought it would bring some such reply.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #77 on: 05/02/2009 14:42:47 »
Talking football. Everything that starts with 'Ar' is good for Arsenal. Welcome my boy Arshavin.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #78 on: 05/02/2009 15:10:23 »
I wish someone could answer my other threads. [???]

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #79 on: 05/02/2009 15:27:58 »
I read that as "threats".
Am I paranoid?

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Offline LeeE

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #80 on: 05/02/2009 16:54:07 »
...because God would never make himself obvious.

This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?

The only scenario I can see that fits this is that we are being tested for gullibility.  If God designed and created all of us, (s)he should be well aware of what we're capable of, so what's the point in testing?  Although now that I think about it again, perhaps it's a form of quality control where, having designed us to use reason, we're being checked to make sure it was installed and works properly.  [;)]
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #81 on: 05/02/2009 17:06:34 »
Quote from: LeeE
Although now that I think about it again, perhaps it's a form of quality control where, having designed us to use reason, we're being checked to make sure it was installed and works properly.  wink
Yep; that's gotta be it. QC on a cosmic scale.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #82 on: 06/02/2009 00:09:07 »
I find it hard to accept that most of you are 'thinking' about it. To me it's more like you have reached the conclusion. I call it worship because you refuse to think outside the box of what you believe. God is rather obvious when you do. Also I'm not saying worship is sticking to a conclusion because that's the dangerous kind of worship. Sometimes we need to adjust. We adjust if all the dots connect and if there are fewer questions left to be answered.

The foresight exhibited in nature and it's beginning tell of a very intelligent being, which chaos does not.

You don't realise the irony of what you've just said. The only "dots" you have available to connect are equivalent to the ones you see here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_illusion

You don't have the evidence so please stop pretending you do.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #83 on: 06/02/2009 02:37:34 »
Maybe the great almighty are computers put together by some past other-planetary-system beings who are trying to discover whether they might have been created by organic pollutants and are husbanding us to test whether that might be so [:)] There must be some great debates going on amongst them. If we only had access to their message boards ! [:)]
« Last Edit: 06/02/2009 02:39:59 by Vern »

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #84 on: 06/02/2009 07:58:41 »
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Maybe the great almighty are computers put together by some past other-planetary-system beings who are trying to discover whether they might have been created by organic pollutants and are husbanding us to test whether that might be so There must be some great debates going on amongst them. If we only had access to their message boards !

Funny thing is, we are almost sure that we are not alone in the universe. People will even look for life on Mars, send signals to Saturn of all places. Scientist speculate that that life form is much higher than ours. But mention that the other form of life is what the bible calls angels and you immediately sound crazy. There is a more intelligent life form.

What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy? Why are terriers so funny to look at?

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This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?

For the same reason we want people to like us for what we are and not just for what we can give them. We all live something for people to find out as they get to know us better. Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.

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Offline BenV

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #85 on: 06/02/2009 12:13:49 »
What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy? Why are terriers so funny to look at?

As I understand it, we bred both of those sub-species for our own purposes, though you do get some very beautiful fish...

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Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.
Worse than the middle ages? Really?

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Offline dentstudent

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #86 on: 06/02/2009 12:18:32 »
What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy?

This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #87 on: 06/02/2009 14:25:39 »
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This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

Sorry if I sounded offensive but I really think they are pleasant to look at. And no evolution explains that.

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Worse than the middle ages? Really?

Yes really. I don't think they had nuclear weapons, suicide bombers. And the people today are getting worse. Try not to compare to the middle ages but to what was there just 10 years ago. I don't know where you guys live but I know people are colder in your neighborhood too.

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Offline BenV

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #88 on: 06/02/2009 14:47:48 »
Quote
Quote
Worse than the middle ages? Really?

Yes really. I don't think they had nuclear weapons, suicide bombers. And the people today are getting worse. Try not to compare to the middle ages but to what was there just 10 years ago. I don't know where you guys live but I know people are colder in your neighborhood too.

Why should we compare to 10 years ago? You said:

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Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.

For that comment to be anything but nonsense, we need to consider things since the bible was written, don't we?

Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #89 on: 07/02/2009 00:51:47 »
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This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

Sorry if I sounded offensive but I really think they are pleasant to look at. And no evolution explains that.

I think the link may be too hard for you to understand. There are plenty of evolutionary advantages in developing an aesthetic. It's all a part of an evolved culture.
There is no 'obvious' reason why it should be put down to some Zookeeper making our cages pleasant.

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Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #90 on: 07/02/2009 01:08:14 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
There is no 'obvious' reason why it should be put down to some Zookeeper making our cages pleasant.
Wow; I like that! I hadn't thought of the Great Almighty as a zoo keeper before. But that does sum up the subject comment very well.

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lyner

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #91 on: 07/02/2009 17:15:16 »
Anthropomorphism may be forgiven when dealing with the 'lower' animals or even with inanimate systems but many 'believers' have the nerve to do it with their God too. That always strikes me as the height of presumption.

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Offline LeeE

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #92 on: 07/02/2009 17:35:58 »
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This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?
For the same reason we want people to like us for what we are and not just for what we can give them.

How are people going to know what you are, to like you for yourself, if you're not obvious but instead obscure yourself with ambiguity and uncertainty?
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #93 on: 10/02/2009 08:27:48 »
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Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

By worse I was referring to :
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...in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power...
2Tim 3

You must admit that everywhere you look people are like that unless you are so young you haven't noticed people change. Technology may have made life a bit better but not things are going down-hill.

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...For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress...

Even the frequency of natural phenomena is increasing.

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..[people in] anguish, not knowing the way out... while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers... will be shaken.

I remember Iraq when reading this, kids afraid even to go to the market because of suicide bombers or people left stranded due the financial crisis.

Things maybe o.k for some but we shouldn't be disregarding those in problems.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 08:32:07 by demadone »

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #94 on: 10/02/2009 09:18:06 »
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Anthropomorphism may be forgiven when dealing with the 'lower' animals or even with inanimate systems but many 'believers' have the nerve to do it with their God too. That always strikes me as the height of presumption.

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And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in Godís image he created him
Genesis 1

Presumptuousness is exhibited when man imagines himself to be the supreme intelligence of the universe when he can't even understand a wink about the structure of his own brain. No hard insults meant towards neurologists.

If there is any case for Anthropomorphism here then humans are ''lower' animals'.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 09:41:48 by demadone »

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #95 on: 10/02/2009 09:23:20 »
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Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

By worse I was referring to :
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...in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power...
2Tim 3

You must admit that everywhere you look people are like that unless you are so young you haven't noticed people change. Technology may have made life a bit better but not things are going down-hill.
People have always been that way. Don't be silly.

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...For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress...

Even the frequency of natural phenomena is increasing.
You're just making stuff up. Where is the evidence that these disasters are becoming significantly more frequent? The only reason you're saying this is because you live now and notice it.

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..[people in] anguish, not knowing the way out... while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers... will be shaken.

I remember Iraq when reading this, kids afraid even to go to the market because of suicide bombers or people left stranded due the financial crisis.

Things maybe o.k for some but we shouldn't be disregarding those in problems.
Those other places where people are suffering tend to be developing countries. They are clear examples of the conditions people experienced in pre-1st world society, and argue against your idealist view of "it's worse now than it used to be".
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #96 on: 10/02/2009 10:02:18 »
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You're just making stuff up. Where is the evidence that these disasters are becoming significantly more frequent? The only reason you're saying this is because you live now and notice it.

http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/trends-in-natural-disasters

I thought this was obvious. Note also that the world wars also fall under these time of the end. Not to mention that wars after these took even more lives.

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #97 on: 10/02/2009 10:15:30 »
Some new forms of disasters:

AIDS, Bird Flu, Spanish Influenza, Terrorists, World wars, Nuclear proliferation, global warming and the list goes on. I am sure you know what I mean.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #98 on: 10/02/2009 10:23:38 »
Did you read what the linked page said? The only clear information the graph shows is an increase in the number of disasters reported due to population growth and development. The data is also only from 1900s onwards, a fraction of the time over which geological disasters have been occurring.

As to the rest: viruses have always plagued humans; humans have always performed hostile acts towards others, and terrorists are actually not a major cause of death; Climate change is the only phenomenon which can even remotely fit your criteria, but it hardly promotes your cause, because the earth has experienced multiple dramatic climate fluctuations before.

There is no such thing as "the good old days". You are temporally biased. You have no argument.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 10:25:39 by _Stefan_ »
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #99 on: 10/02/2009 10:40:44 »
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People have always been that way. Don't be silly.

Increase in the following is undeniable :
Terrorism
Immorality (including homosexuality, infidelity, pornography industry etc)
Drug abuse
Lark of regard for others

yet again I'm sure you can finish off the list yourself.

I hope are not too sidetracked from what we started talking about. i.e the origin of matter.