Is perpetual motion impossible?

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #50 on: 15/11/2008 21:47:05 »
'Wear and tear', distinct from 'sacrificial use as an energy source' would be reasonable.
However, wear and tear involves 'change', which involves the transfer of energy - where will that energy come from?

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lyner

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« Reply #51 on: 16/11/2008 10:26:19 »
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ABH
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Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.
Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.

(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)
BTW, you haven't responded to the rather important point, repeated above.
If we are to have a 'Scientific' discussion and not just a fantasy chat, we need to get the ground rules sorted out.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #52 on: 16/11/2008 14:03:26 »
Sorry sophiecentau but, you will have to wait, until the exposure time. I have to be careful, for I could inadvertently expose the breakthrough, and that would not be fair to those I work with as well. Thus I can not tell you how it is done at this time.

 But what we can do is post some designs and talk about what stop each design from working? Or I can post some designs or links that I have posted on other forums to talk how they can or cannot work as well.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5802.0

The links might be interesting to you as well.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bored chemist

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #53 on: 16/11/2008 16:28:32 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline ukmicky

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #54 on: 16/11/2008 18:55:50 »
Ah yes sophiecentaur

 We now get into the intellectual phase now.
1. Is the machine perpetual? or is the motion perpetual?
2. When something is destroyed, is it truly destroyed or just changed?

 Every thing goes through a change, which means change is perpetual. Now the wear and tear of a devices which can cause a change in a motion which can make a device fail. But the original motion design that is guided by the device is perpetual and will remain perpetual until the material changes. So you have to look at it as, if there is no change in the device the motion is and will remain perpetual. Thus once the machine is built, perpetual motion is proved.

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.
And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Unless you are a pure genuis that is and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of  frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which stops  gravity ,or the transference of heat and energy from inside or out.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2008 19:42:35 by ukmicky »

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #55 on: 16/11/2008 19:43:49 »
Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.

Greetings ukmicky

Up to this point you are correct. You can put it in a glass case.

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And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever

Now to this point we are approaching fantasy and the unpractical.

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however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Wear and tear of materials has to be taken into consideration. For as long as the materials last the motion will remain perpetual.

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Unless you are a pure genuis and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of new frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which prevents gravity ,heat or any form of energy being transferred from inside or out.

You missed overwhelming movement that overcomes all friction, until the material fails itself. Which is what it will be. The design for the movement is all that maters, for it can be rebuilt and allot more can be built and fictitious restrictions of impractical proof won't stop it. We have to keep our minds in the realm of reality and practicality.

 Here is what you want. A device that runs with No fuel, no sun, no wind, no water, no recognizable source but gravity. And like any other machine repairs may have to be done from time to time. But that will then be all what is needed. It will perpetuate its movement until something stops it.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #56 on: 16/11/2008 19:51:05 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?


Greetings Bored chemist

Here is what one of your founding fathers said

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“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #57 on: 16/11/2008 21:08:30 »
whatever is "overwhelming movement"?
How can any of this be taken seriously whilst such terms as that are used with no definition?


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Offline rosy

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« Reply #58 on: 17/11/2008 00:11:59 »
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no recognizable source but gravity
Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #59 on: 17/11/2008 01:19:30 »
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no recognizable source but gravity
Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

You are not looking a repetitive actions with in a device which will repeat and build up kinetic energy. Thus it becomes perpetual. Don't confuse perpetual with spiritual theory. I have a Graduates degree in theology with the Orthodox. And gravity will always exist so if a device runs on gravity it is perpetual. Even the US patent office has now recognized the possibility of a perpetual motion device. But they won't allow a patent, without a working model.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #60 on: 17/11/2008 05:16:55 »
But they won't allow a patent, without a working model.
I can't blame them.  Still, how do you get over the fact that work done against gravity must at least equal the energy gained from falling with gravity?

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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #61 on: 17/11/2008 09:55:08 »
Someone else on another talkboard reckons he has some sort of turbine which needs energy to get it spinning and then the energy input can be reduce to zero and it carrys on spinning.. Yeah right!

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lyner

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« Reply #62 on: 17/11/2008 10:28:53 »
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Even the US patent office has now recognized the possibility of a perpetual motion device.

If you were a busy government official, which would you rather to do; argue the toss for ever with 'PM' inventors or just tell them to produce a working machine?
It strikes me as the ideal, time-effective, answer.

Sounds like the classic "Yes, dear, very nice" response from a busy Mum to an enthusiastic teenage son.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #63 on: 17/11/2008 13:30:25 »
@ All

 Back in the past the patent office was getting all to many perpetual motion machine patent applications. And sever where trying to get the idea of perpetual motion itself in any form. So when any body had a breakthrough they could use the courts to take it. It was getting out of hand so the patent office refused unless the people had a working model and it had to run for a year. This stopped the garbage which they were dealing with. Then it somehow became not accepting applications at all, until so many science breakthrough and things that were believed to be impossible became true, as well some near runners where produced in the magnet motor field, that would run for awhile and then stop. The eddy wave would build up heat and basically burn out the magnets. At least the is the theory.

A little history helps.   
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #64 on: 17/11/2008 13:52:54 »
And the History does not demonstrate that the decision was either based on Science or supports your argument. Particularly because the conclusion was reached so long ago.

You surely can't suggest that any system with currents flowing around   it (other than a superconductor) could ever be involved in perpetual motion.
Running down after a while doesn't qualify.

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #65 on: 17/11/2008 13:59:28 »
Just something interesting I found on the UK patents office site (now known as the UK Intellectual Property Office).

4.05 Processes or articles alleged to operate in a manner which is clearly contrary to well-established physical laws, such as perpetual motion machines, are regarded as not having industrial application

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/practice-sec-004.pdf

« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 14:07:25 by dentstudent »

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lyner

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« Reply #66 on: 17/11/2008 14:58:47 »
They've got a way of putting things, haven't they?
"The Court went on to hold that industry does not exist in that sense to make or use that which is useless for any known purpose."

I guess they've seen it all in their time.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #67 on: 17/11/2008 15:44:44 »
Possibly.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #68 on: 17/11/2008 20:10:45 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?


Greetings Bored chemist

Here is what one of your founding fathers said

Quote
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947


True, but useless.
If there are no rules then we have still nothing to discuss. It might all turn into blancmange tomorrow.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline srobert

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« Reply #69 on: 17/11/2008 21:20:10 »

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.
 

Surely perpetual motion of itself is not by any means impossible, a body at constant velocity will remain at constant velocity unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. An example of an unbalanced force which acts upon bodies we typically come across is friction. If you were to remove all friction, as well as any other forces from affecting the object then it will not stop. In practice that's impossible since at the very least it will be affected by the gravitation field of other ojects.

The real problem is to build a machine from which you can extract work perpetually without the input of energy

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lyner

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« Reply #70 on: 17/11/2008 22:03:21 »
srobert
You've just described two non viable situations. The latter is just a bit more outrageous than the former.
btw, the gravitational bit is not strictly relevant because gravity is a conservative force.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 22:05:54 by sophiecentaur »

Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #71 on: 17/11/2008 23:15:26 »
Perpetual motion is a possibility. I have never seen a wheel design that would not eventually lose momentum due to friction. But then again, maybe friction is the thing to use. You don't get something for nothing. You just got to learn to use the same force more than once. I am currently on the second draft of a machine I have been working on for a LLLLLOOONNNGGGG time. Keep at it.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #72 on: 17/11/2008 23:51:28 »
I am finally getting back to work, and as soon as I get caught up a little, I'll get my wheels done.

Here is one of first of my original designs I posted on other forums. I use it to help prove the possibility of perpetual motion.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 23:53:28 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #73 on: 18/11/2008 00:03:38 »
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I use it to help prove the possibility of perpetual motion.
Sorry but, if you take moments about the axis and add them all up, there is no net turning effect. If it were ever to work, it should start from stationary.
Then what about all the noise (energy) involved with all that clattering?
Have you really  not read of all the similar designs which have been long since discredited?

You have as much chance as of  turning base metals into Gold, you know.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #74 on: 18/11/2008 02:35:00 »

Have you really  not read of all the similar designs which have been long since discredited?

What similar designs? I have seen thousands and have not found one similar to this one. [8D]


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You have as much chance as of  turning base metals into Gold, you know.

Well I kinda turn metal into gold, its my living as a blacksmith/armourer.  [;D]

http://www.creationtime.com/hisbsaw.htm
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #75 on: 18/11/2008 09:14:24 »
There must be some force to turn your wheel. This will have to come from the imbalance in moments. A thousand designs have relied on this and they all failed - of course. What else can happen?
Do you seriously not subscribe to Energy as a concept - and all that implies?

And here's a thought. Would not Evolution have produced living organisms, based on your idea, if it were really viable?

What saddens me is that, when your next machine runs down, you will simply blame it on practicalities and not on fundamentals. Why not direct your undoubted enthusiasm and energy into a more fruitful direction? Perhaps into improving efficiency of a 'realistic' system.


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Well I kinda turn metal into gold, its my living as a blacksmith/armourer.
I like it.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #76 on: 18/11/2008 09:22:32 »
Thought experiments. Could a system be built that relies on energy burned converting it back to the original source, separating back into combustible gas and oxygen.

This is something the planet achieves so must be possible to replicate on a smaller scale.

Hydrogen extracted from water produces water, which can be burned again and again without any net loss. Figure out how to separate the water without using as much energy as the gas releases to our engine and we could have some form of perpetual motion.

So if say our proposed perpetual machine was a boat that converted the water into gas to fuel an engine using less power than the conversion process would this qualify?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline rosy

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« Reply #77 on: 18/11/2008 10:58:36 »
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This is something the planet achieves so must be possible to replicate on a smaller scale.

Yes, but the planet has an external source of energy.

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Hydrogen extracted from water produces water, which can be burned again and again without any net loss. Figure out how to separate the water without using as much energy as the gas releases to our engine and we could have some form of perpetual motion.
Fundamental misunderstanding of how chemistry works. The (theoretical) amounts of energy required to generate the reagents and released by the reaction are exactly equal. Unfortunately thermal losses during for example the process of splitting the water by electrolysis (or any other method) will never be zero, so we can never even break even on this or any equivalent chemical process.

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lyner

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« Reply #78 on: 18/11/2008 11:21:56 »
AKF
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Hydrogen extracted from water produces water, which can be burned again and again without any net loss. Figure out how to separate the water without using as much energy as the gas releases to our engine and we could have some form of perpetual motion.
When I was little I though I would be able to fly by waving two table tennis bats as I jumped down from the table. I grew up and learned the facts of life.
How can you say there's no net loss? Energy has to be supplied (EXTRA energy) each time you repeat the cycle because of losses.  During every energy transfer, there is some Heat generated. Some of this, with the best insulation you can supply, will  be lost to the system. The Efficiency  in any process is not 100%. Why not accept that? There is even a net loss of Hydrogen and Oxygen as they combine, to a finite degree, with the material of the containers used.
Perhaps you should 'figure out'  the facts and learn some Science (not Magic).
I know that the actual facts don't influence your particular views and Science is 'all out to get you' but give it a try.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #79 on: 18/11/2008 11:57:12 »
Thank you Rosy.

It is not wise in science to say we can never.
This was a thought experiment supposing that a method of hydrogen extraction can be found that greatly lowers the amount of energy used to extract it to the point where an engine can run burning it and the vapour can be recycled back to the tank to repeat the process. Saying we can never achieve this is a bit like stating water under normal atmospheric pressure in a single open ended tube will not rise over the 10 meter mark, in the physics books relied upon by Sophiecentaur et al.

So let's deal with the external source of energy. Where does the energy from the sun come in to driving our hypothetical hydrogen engine?

Let's not forget the original idea of perpetual motion. It was to produce a widget that could output more energy than it uses to allow it to continue running indefinately. Should the object deteriorate over a year but still runs for that year perpetually we have not disproved perpetual motion but have merely exposed a flaw in the widget construction.

Sophiecentaur. Predicatably you throw up a defence. The net loss was in the amount of water used. In that once burned it transforms back into water so no net loss of water.

Make the hydrogen production more efficient than the losses due to friction and we can ignore heat loss providing the widget keeps running ofc.

Just thinking aloud here so cut me some slack
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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« Reply #80 on: 18/11/2008 13:04:45 »
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The net loss was in the amount of water used. In that once burned it transforms back into water so no net loss of water.
That's like saying that there is no 'net loss' of bicycle chain when you ride a bike. Almost true (apart from wear and tear) but irrelevant when we are discussing energy and efficiency, surely.

So, if we allow efficiency to be greater than 100%, we have free energy. Where does that statement get us? It doesn't mean that 101% efficiency is a concept worth considering.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #81 on: 18/11/2008 13:10:14 »
Andrew K Fletcher

Here some video that may help you stand.

E=mc2 (part I)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB5vBoHB65w

E=mc2 (part II)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQMWgWVQ000&feature=related

With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline rosy

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #82 on: 18/11/2008 13:56:07 »
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It is not wise in science to say we can never.
OK, I forgot to state explicitly that I was assuming we don't need to rewrite thermodynamics from the bottom up. I make this assumption because the evidence supporting thermodynamics is about as cast iron as it gets. Naturally it's possible if someone bangs their head against it for long enough they may discover a flaw... but I suggest they're more likely to get concussion.

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Saying we can never achieve this is a bit like stating water under normal atmospheric pressure in a single open ended tube will not rise over the 10 meter mark, in the physics books relied upon by Sophiecentaur et al.
Yawn. Andrew, this is still not a particularly remarkable result. A column of water is only supported by the atmosphere to 10m under a vacuum, but if there are interactions with the walls of the column it may be transiently stable to a greater height. King Charles's Head (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/King_Charles'_head) comes to mind.

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So let's deal with the external source of energy. Where does the energy from the sun come in to driving our hypothetical hydrogen engine?
Uh? Well, you could use it to drive a solar cell to electrolyse the water. But it's not PM because it depends on an external energy source.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #83 on: 18/11/2008 14:15:09 »
This just a thought to add.
How the term "free energy" rakes against my nerves.
It would best be called "over unity investment"
You still have to spend money for the windmills, solar panels, the materials of whatever we use to collect the available energy. Then it finally pays for itself from freeing you from spending that much money to the power grid. So you get more back from you investment. More out than in = over unity.  [:o)]
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #84 on: 18/11/2008 18:28:46 »
The video's were good enjoyed them Thanks.

Looking at the title of the thread, we are trying to show that perpetual motion is possible. Reference to perpetual movement of planets suggests that PM is not impossible but probable. And that the bar against it is the level of our current knowledge.

A comet for example appears perpetual as it travels through space, so we should consider a vacuum and zero gravity to remove friction from the widget. Super cooled magnets from memory are able to reduce friction between a track and a monorail train, think it was in Japan. So there are many ways to get over obstacles.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #85 on: 18/11/2008 19:58:04 »
"Reference to perpetual movement of planets suggests that PM is not impossible but probable."
Come back in 10 billion years and you will find that it's not perpetual.

"Super cooled magnets from memory are able to reduce friction between a track and a monorail train,"
Since there's no contact the friction losses are zero. However there are losses due to viscous drag; losses due to electromagnetic induction and, probably other losses too.

The bar here is your current knolwedge. If you knew some physics you wouldn't waste time on this pipedream.
"So there are many ways to get over obstacles."
Yes, but there is no way to get over the laws of thermodynamics.
 
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #86 on: 18/11/2008 21:19:05 »
BC You remind me of a scene from Red Dwarf where the despair squid has infected the crew. They have one bullet left, so line up to allow the single bullet to kill them all and put them out of their misery. Blakey from On The Buses was another that reminds me of your negative attitude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZAdisxuAwc

All we are doing is throwing around a few ideas that might stimulate some interesting conversation, the topic is interesting, whether or not you feel it disagrees with the laws of thermodynamics.

Stating that 10 billion years is required to prove or disprove a perpetual motion machine is hardly worthy of a round of applause
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #87 on: 18/11/2008 22:16:50 »
"Stating that 10 billion years is required to prove or disprove a perpetual motion machine is hardly worthy of a round of applause"
I'm not after a round of aplause, I'm after scientific discussion on a scientific website.

We could talk about 6 foot pink bunny rabbits, but whom would this help?
You seem to think that I'm negative and that this isn't productive.
How productive is the delusional notion that perpetual motion machines are possible?
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Offline srobert

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« Reply #88 on: 18/11/2008 22:40:15 »

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.
 

Surely perpetual motion of itself is not by any means impossible, a body at constant velocity will remain at constant velocity unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. An example of an unbalanced force which acts upon bodies we typically come across is friction. If you were to remove all friction, as well as any other forces from affecting the object then it will not stop. In practice that's impossible since at the very least it will be affected by the gravitation field of other ojects.

The real problem is to build a machine from which you can extract work perpetually without the input of energy

srobert
You've just described two non viable situations. The latter is just a bit more outrageous than the former.
btw, the gravitational bit is not strictly relevant because gravity is a conservative force.

What's wrong with my first statement, since it's just a statement of Newton's first law which I was taught as "A body continues to maintain its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force." All I said was that there's no law broken if all external unbalanced forces can be eliminated. Of course in practice this is essentially impossible, but unless you're telling me Newton's first law is wrong at low velocities, or I've mis-remembered it where have I gone wrong?
« Last Edit: 18/11/2008 22:50:37 by srobert »

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #89 on: 18/11/2008 22:50:16 »
Bored chemist

Impossible or possible, this is the meaning of the string.
You take my design I posted. If the shooter design shoots the ball from the 8:00 position up towards the 2:00 position which will hit most likely at the 3:00 position due to weight displacement. The wheel will rotate as long as the shift for the shooter shoot around the 8:00 position for each ball. Thus this perpetuation of the motion which mean shoot and shift on time.

 If this happens it will run until it is stopped or break down. Is this not perpetual motion if this happens? According to the patent office it would be.  
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #90 on: 19/11/2008 07:56:23 »
I don't think we'll find a supercooled magnet which requires no energy and we won't find a region of space with no atoms in it. So neither of those scenarios are anything but 'limiting cases' for a totally academic argument.
As for actually getting energy out of a perpetual machine, there's little point in discussing it if it won't even self-sustain.
Red Dwarf is great fiction; so is PM. They go together well but RD is more fruitful.
« Last Edit: 19/11/2008 22:08:25 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #91 on: 23/11/2008 11:15:12 »
  blakestyger said:  ..."Yes - everything has to be paid for!"..

The above are all very well
BUT THEN WHAT IF SOMEONE" ACTUALLY DID PAY FOR IT!"
and thus...

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lyner

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« Reply #92 on: 23/11/2008 11:30:41 »
.... and thus there would be an input.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #93 on: 23/11/2008 13:11:23 »
Bored chemist

 
 If this happens it will run until it is stopped or break down. Is this not perpetual motion if this happens? According to the patent office it would be.  
If it were perpetual motion then it would be perpetual motion.
Since it won't work (due to friction etc), it won't be perpetual motion.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #94 on: 23/11/2008 13:21:01 »
I wonder why are we replying to this nonsense?
It won't work.
'They' will have to waste a lot of time to prove to themselves that it won't work - but, even then, they will say that a practical detail was to blame when it fails.

It's like people at Monte Carlo with a 'system'. You just can't tell 'em.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #95 on: 23/11/2008 15:04:24 »
It is not always the quest but, it is what you learn from the quest. Many many inventions have come from this quest that have helped change the world or had lead to others that have. I myself have 4 inventions that have come from this quest. One I am presenting for contract with the US military, but it has many other uses as well. (it is not a weapon)

 PS Bored chemist
That is a blanket answer. You didn't truly answer the question.

 
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #96 on: 23/11/2008 15:07:02 »
So the means justify the end, so to speak?

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #97 on: 23/11/2008 15:10:35 »
  blakestyger said:  ..."Yes - everything has to be paid for!"..

The above are all very well
BUT THEN WHAT IF SOMEONE" ACTUALLY DID PAY FOR IT!"
and thus...

Lets ask about energy? can you destroy it? No you can only change it. everything is a cycle. The cycle of life ect. For perpetual motion you are just containing it in a smaller space.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #98 on: 23/11/2008 15:20:09 »
So the means justify the end, so to speak?

 Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 1 action causes another reaction which causes anther reaction in a closed loop could become perpetual.

For my hobby. The enjoyment justifies the hobby, the rest are just fringe benefits. Here is a youtube video I did with magnets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tzXhOipIxE You should find it an interesting effect. Regular steel bar above holding a regular steel ball above the magnet without touching a magnet. I am sure I can show many slide of hand magic tricks  that can incorporate the effect.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #99 on: 23/11/2008 17:21:13 »
Quote
I am sure I can show many slide of hand magic tricks
No doubt. What has that got to do with a genuine demonstration of PM?
What have 'reaction and action' got to do with energy transfer? Does a dropped ball bounce for ever?