The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Technology
  4. Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?

  • 24 Replies
  • 11344 Views
  • 5 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 7658
  • Activity:
    27%
  • Thanked: 751 times
    • View Profile
Re: Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« Reply #20 on: 06/07/2017 03:22:08 »
The diagrams below show the sine-wave AC voltage waveform of a 240VAC mains supply.
- The peak voltage rises above 240V, but on average, it will deliver the same power as 240V DC
- You have to imagine this pattern continues for 100s or millions of cycles

The next large graph shows the current that would be drawn by a 100W incandescent light bulb.
- This is a resistive load; it gets more complex if the load is inductive or capacitive
- This is effectively the same current that would be applied to the light bulb if you set your dimmer to "maximum brightness"

The smaller graphs on the right show what happens if you turn the dimmer knob farther towards the "dim" setting.
- The TRIAC acts like a very fast power switch, which is initially OFF
- After a small delay, a timer circuit turns on the TRIAC switch, turning on the light bulb
- The TRIAC switch turns off again when the AC voltage crosses 0V
- Depending on how you set the dimmer knob, the current to the light bulb may be turned on almost all the time, or hardly at all.
- This allows you to adjust the brightness of the light from almost full brightness to almost off.
- Switching the light bulb on and off 100 or 120 times a second is not usually visible, because of human persistence of vision, and the thermal inertia of the light filament.

In the Wikipedia article, the timer circuit consists of:
- a variable resistor that you can turn
- a fixed capacitor
- a fixed Zener diode
- This allows you to adjust the switch-on angle from 0 to 180 degrees

In some countries, non-critical power loads (like off-peak water heaters) may be controlled by the electricity supplier by injecting signals on the power lines (you get a fee rebate for this off-peak power).
- The signals slightly move the zero-crossing point of the AC waveform
- This can result in a cyclic variation in the TRIAC switch-on point, and variation of the lamp brightness
- This is visible as a cyclic variation in lamp brightness while the AC signaling voltages are present.

The TRIAC current contains many vertical lines, which indicate the presence of high frequencies in the current, which were not present in the original smooth sine-wave AC voltage. These high frequencies are what destroyed the cheap power meter.
* TRIAC Waveforms.pdf (158.15 kB - downloaded 102 times.)
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: chris



Offline homebrewer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 90
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Re: Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« Reply #21 on: 06/07/2017 12:43:27 »
Every Fluorescent bulb contain a small amount of Mercury Hg 80, which evaporates when the enhanced start-up voltage strikes the electrodes., in a standard Fluorescent light circuit.  Without the recommended start-up voltage circuit the Hg 80 can not evaporate und will cause an destructive low frequency pulse in high current in the Triac circuit of a standard dimmer, designed for incandescent light bulbs.
Logged
 

Offline vhfpmr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 105
  • Activity:
    0.5%
  • Thanked: 5 times
    • View Profile
Re: Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« Reply #22 on: 07/07/2017 00:32:08 »
Quote from: chris on 04/07/2017 08:50:30
It's quite complicated isn't it? I could really do with a walk-through diagram to show what is happening at each stage of the waveform to understand how it works.
If you install a (free) copy of LTspice, there's a dimmer in the examples folder which you can play with to your heart's content: http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/

This is a plot of relative power as a function of triac trigger angle:

* Triac.JPG (34.54 kB, 614x420 - viewed 172 times.)
« Last Edit: 07/07/2017 12:52:48 by vhfpmr »
Logged
 

Offline syhprum

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 4816
  • Activity:
    7%
  • Thanked: 56 times
    • View Profile
Re: Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« Reply #23 on: 07/08/2017 13:06:21 »
I wonder if an incandescent lamp cap be considered as a purely resistive load, due to the low thermal inertia of the filament and the rapid change of resistivey of Tungsten with temperature the current is in no way proportional to the voltage this would seem to give a capacitive element to the impedance.
It would be interesting to feed a lamp via an inductor from a DC source and see if an oscilation could be produced
 
Logged
syhprum
 

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 7658
  • Activity:
    27%
  • Thanked: 751 times
    • View Profile
Re: Why Can I NOT use an energy saving bulb in a dimmer switch light fitting ?
« Reply #24 on: 07/08/2017 22:49:23 »
It's true that the resistance of the filament is a fairly non-linear function of temperature: the resistance increases as temperature increases to its operating temperature. The temperature range is pretty wide from room temperature (around 300K) to operating temperature  around 3000K; the resistivity changes by a factor of 16 over this temperature range.
See: http://physics.usask.ca/~bzulkosk/Lab_Manuals/EP354/ep354_thermal-radiation-lab_Tungsten-Temp-Resistivity.pdf

But the pulses of electricity occur fairly close together in time (8-10ms, depending on country). As a teenager, I used a photocell to detect the change in light output from incandescent and fluorescent lamps due to mains frequency. But the variation in temperature and resistance of an incandescent lamp is not huge, once it reaches operating temperature.

The crucial effect in capacitance is that the current increases before the voltage increases (I leads V).
- It is the opposite for inductance: V leads I.
- Both are energy storage devices - they continue to deliver a current, even when the voltage has dropped to zero.

For an incandescent lamp, the pulse of voltage increases temperature, which decreases current a bit later (V leads I, like an inductor).
But when the pulse passes its peak, the current does not continue to increase while the voltage holds the same polarity, but starts to decrease with the voltage (unlike an inductor).
- When the voltage reaches zero, so does the current.
- This is the essential characteristic of a resistor, not an inductor or capacitor

It is true that every resistor has a tiny bit of capacitance and inductance. But we can say that the capacitance and inductance of a light bulb is pretty negligible compared to the 1kΩ resistance of a 60W/240V incandescent globe.
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB



  • Print
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: electricity  / dimmer switch  / semiconductor  / solid state dimmer  / energy saving light bulb 
 

Similar topics (5)

What are "energy" and "work" ?

Started by The ChampBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 108
Views: 43141
Last post 31/12/2018 20:54:40
by yor_on
If we put a mirror millions of light years away and reflected earth, could we see what earth looked like millions of years ago?

Started by thedocBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 9
Views: 8160
Last post 20/05/2018 00:53:37
by raf21
Can matter in a vacuum create dark energy and dark matter effects?

Started by GoscienceBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 1
Views: 5405
Last post 10/05/2011 23:37:24
by yor_on
What is "light" pressure?

Started by sorincosofretBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 34
Views: 19977
Last post 13/02/2018 19:46:54
by Bill S
What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?

Started by londounkmBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 245
Views: 81736
Last post 15/02/2011 09:11:44
by hakaya
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.208 seconds with 48 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.